Keywords:concentration camps; family; family background; family history; Holocaust; immigration; Isaac Molodowsky; Isadore Litman; Kadia Molodowsky; Kadya Molodowsky; Kadye Molodovski; Lena Molodowsky; relationships; Russia; Second World War; Soviet Union; USSR; Varshah, Poland; Warsaw, Poland; Warszawa, Poland; World War II; WW2; WWII
CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is March 19th, 2018. I am
here in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania, with Edith Schwarz, and we are going to recordan interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.Do I have your permission to record?
EDITH SCHWARZ:You do indeed.
CW:Thank you. So today we're mostly going to be talking about a relative of
yours. Would you mind saying who this person is and how you're related to her?
ES:This is -- we're talking about Kadia Molodowsky [Lev?], who is a Jewish
poetess. And she is my mother's sister. I was brought up in a house where my 1:00mother always talked about the three sisters. The first one, her older sister,Lena, was a krasavitse [beautiful woman]. She was known as the beauty. And myaunt Kadia was known as the intellectual. And my mother was known as the rebel.It took me a long time to find out that my mother is as beautiful as Lena was,and that my aunt Kadia is really a rebel.
CW:And what do you know about where Kadia Molodowsky and your mother and other
aunt were born?
ES:Oh, Kartuzka, in Bereza, which is part of the country which went from Poland
2:00to Russia, to Poland to Russia. At the moment that they were born and livedthere it was Russian. It's a small town. My grandfather was a very famousteacher. He was called the "rov [Orthodox rabbi]," and he lived there, and hetaught a great many people. And he recognized the ability of Kadia, and hetaught her way beyond what women in that particular area were taught.
CW:Do you know your grandfather's name?
ES:My grandfather was Isaac Molodowsky. He came to America to my mother in 1932,
I believe it was. I adored him. He was a man who came here who did not know thelanguage, who did not know the country, and he took my hand, and he took me 3:00everywhere. We went to amusement parks, we went to Fairmount Park, we went tomuseums -- he took me everywhere in the city. And I was his -- he was my ideal.
CW:And what do you know about your grandmother?
ES:My grandmother died before I was born. Her name was Itke. I was named after
her. She was a very capable woman. She ran a business. She ran a store whichsold dry good. And then she started a small factory, which sold kvass. Kvass isa type of drink. It can be based on rye or on barley. From what I understand my 4:00mother's was a little bit on the alcohol side. But she did very well. Andunfortunately she died of the pneumonia that she'd contacted when she was outgardening in the wintertime. So I never knew her personally.
CW:And have you heard stories about Bereza-Kartuzka? I mean, do you have a sense
of what life was like there, growing up there?
ES:Very little. My mother talked constantly of the family, but very little of
the town. The town was quite primitive. It had no entertainment. Everything wasmanufactured by the family or the community. And I don't have very much of an 5:00impression of a Kartuzka.
CW:So you were saying before that your grandfather tutored -- or, you know,
taught -- his kids, including Kadia. Do you know anything else about Kadia's education?
ES:No, I don't. The interesting part is that I was not particularly interested
until my mother was much older, and I started to question her, and it was toolate; she didn't remember the details or -- I was always sorry. But I was nevercurious about Europe itself.
CW:And could you describe what your aunt looked like when you knew her?
ES:She did not look American. She looked like a European. Dress was not
6:00particularly important to her. Everything was intellectual, and what you saidand what you thought was what mattered. I expected a little more warmth than Igot, because she had been a teacher. And she was able to teach. And I did enjoymy times with her very much. But it was not a warm child-adult relationship.Now, when I grew older, it was different, because we used to have theseconversations. Kadia's whole thoughts were on Yiddishkayt. The customs, the 7:00greetings, the life of people together was most important to her. Our basicdiscussions were whether religion was part of Yiddishkayt or Yiddishkayt waspart of religion. And we were on opposite sides. But Yiddishkayt was her wholebeing. And I think when she went to Israel -- and she went to Israel to live in-- I think it was '59. I'm not sure --
CW:Maybe a little earlier. I think it was around --
ES:Forty-nine, probably.
CW:Yeah. Yeah.
ES:And she loved the people, she loved the land. She was a Zionist at heart. But
she was very disappointed that Yiddishkayt was not part of the world. It was amodern country. And she didn't expect that. She expected the height of 8:00Yiddishkayt, and she did not get it. And I think that's why she came back.
CW:Can you explain a little bit what -- just define what Yiddishkayt means, what
that meant to her?
ES:It was the whole world to her. It was the culture; it was the people; it was
the Jewish writings; it was even the Hebrew writings. They were all part of herworld. And I don't think she saw anything else. It was all the Yiddishkayt toher. And I -- she fought for feminism, and I don't think she limited it toJudaism. She was a rebel in that direction at a very early age. But basically 9:00her whole world was Yiddish.
CW:And did you grow up in a Yiddish-speaking home?
ES:Mostly. When my grandfather came of course we spoke only Yiddish. But before
that my parents had a children's kiddie shop. And they had to speak English. Sowe did speak English in the house as well as Yiddish.
CW:And where did you grow up?
ES:I grew up in Philadelphia, at Fifth and South Street, which was a business
street. There were a whole selection of stores, from Second Street to almostBroad. And I lived there, in a community where the people lived behind the 10:00stores. And it was an interesting community. It was a Yiddishkayt community. AndI remember that I would go outside when I was a little kid, and I would yell atthe top of my lungs, (says in loud singsong voice) "Take me over," and someonewould come out of their store and take me over. (laughs) It was an interesting world.
CW:So what were the shops on that street that you remember?
ES:Well, next door was Paramount. They had beautiful men's clothes. And the
other side had a -- that's an interesting question. I don't (laughs) rememberthe other side. And then there was a drugstore. There was a shoe store. My aunt,Ka-- Lena, actually had a store two blocks down that was a jewelry store. And I 11:00made many friends there. And they all lived on South Street. And it was acommunity unto itself.
CW:So can you describe the home that you lived in?
ES:I was very lucky. I had a beautiful home. There was a living room/dining room
-- well, it wasn't a dining room. It was a living room -- I guess you'd call ita den -- combination. And it was very beautifully artistic with pole --
CW:Columns?
ES:Columns. Right. Thank you. (laughs) And my mother and I picked out the
12:00furniture together. I was a little girl, but I went. And we each had bedrooms.My brother had a bedroom; I had a bedroom; my grandfather had a bedroom. And wehad a kitchen and dining room downstairs, behind the store. And the store had astockroom also. So we lived in lots of space. And it was a very nice life.
CW:And what was Jewish about your home growing up?
ES:My parents. (laughs) They made a Jewish home. The food was completely Jewish.
CW:Like what?
ES:Uh, my mother made prakes [stuffed cabbage leaves]; my mother made -- all
kinds of foods. She was a good cook. She was a terrible baker. She used onerecipe to make a cake, kukhl, little kikhn [cookies] -- anything. But she was a 13:00good cook. And --
CW:Did you have a favorite thing she would make?
ES:She would always make me lamb chops and peas. Isn't that funny? I haven't
thought of that for a long time. But that's what she did.
CW:And what was Friday night like?
ES:Friday night was not really very different from any other night because we
had the store. The store came first. We had to make a living. We had no one elseon whom to depend. I remember once a customer came in when we were having aseder. And we stopped the seder, waited on the customer, came back, and had theseder. Which may not have been very Jewish, but it was very practical. (laughs) 14:00
CW:Did you go to shul growing up, to synagogue?
ES:I went to my grandfather's shul when he came. I used to come and sit
downstairs. I never went upstairs. And it was an Orthodox shul, of course. Buthe -- they let me because I was a little girl. And so I always went to servicesthere. And when I grew up I joined a Conservative synagogue when I was married,and we were extremely active. I was a living example that I believe Yiddishkaytwas part of Ju-- (laughs) the religion rather than in reverse. And my husbandbuilt, physically, the synagogue. I remember when we were -- we had a Rosh 15:00Hashanah service, and at four o'clock that afternoon we were still laying thefloor in the sanctuary. But we did it. It worked.
CW:Can you tell me more about your grandfather?
ES:He was a very interesting man. He made cigarettes. He had a little machine.
He taught me to make the cigarettes. Of course, I didn't pack them very well,but I did it. And he did a lot of teaching when he came here. He was teachingmost of the rabbis, or young people that became rabbis, in Philadelphia. He wasa friend of Rabbi Rosenthal, and he actually led my first son's pidyen-aben 16:00[redemption ceremony of a first-born son at the age of thirty days] and bris. Hecame over quite often. And my grandfather took me everywhere. He tried to teachme Hebrew. And he made me learn to read -- which I do. I read Hebrew. I don'tunderstand it. And this was my tayne [complaint] to him. He would say, "Read."And I would say, "Translate." And he would say, "Read first, and then we'lltranslate." And I would say, "No, translate first, and then read." I guess I wasin a way my mother's rebellious nature.
CW:In what way was your mother a rebel?
ES:She didn't want to learn the Hebrew. She didn't want to work. She found
17:00things to do, and she did her own work, but it wasn't what my mo-- what hermother wanted her to do. So I guess she was considered a rebel. But my motherwas a very wonderful, wise woman. I remember when I was in college once I read abook -- I'm trying to remember what the name of it was, but I don't. I onlyremember it was about an airplane pilot. And I came home, and I told her aboutthe book. And she sat down with me, and she explained what the book was about.And she hadn't even read it. She was quite wise. And what she did whenever shehad spare time was study. And she studied Yiddish the way she probably should 18:00have when she was a little girl. But she was a -- quite a woman, my mother.
CW:And in what way was your aunt Kadia a rebel?
ES:She was a rebel for her times. People did not believe, and still don't
(laughs) that women can do anything men could do. And she went out to prove it.And she taught, and she fought for women's rights everywhere she went. And shewent to quite a few places. And she was a feminist in the finest sense of theword without being aggressive, which is a hard thing to do. 19:00
CW:Earlier you said that she did not -- that she looked European. Can you
explain that more? What do you mean by that?
ES:In America, clothes are very important. And when she came here, and even when
she lived here, she wore clothes, and that was it. She didn't wear fashion. Shedidn't know what fashion was. She wasn't interested in fashion. So that's -- itwas alien to me. It took a while for me to get used to her.
CW:So, like, what would she wear?
ES:She would wear a dress or a skirt or a top, but it had no shape. She bought
20:00whatever she saw. She really didn't care about it.
CW:And she is known, in photographs at least, for smoking a lot. Do you remember that?
ES:Oh, I remember that. (laughs) She always had a papiros [cigarette] in her
hand. Always. And she smoked a great deal. My mother tried to convince her notto, but nobody could convince her.
CW:So when would you see her?
ES:Well, when I was young, and even when I grew up, we saw her basically on
holidays. But all holidays, not just Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur or Pesach. Shecame for all the little holidays too. And although she was not observant, she 21:00was a religious woman. And she came to synagogue with me every single time shecame. She would go and sit through the services and enjoy them. She would neverseek them out. She was a religious woman in that she believed completely in God,which is unusual, I think, to actually vocalize it that way. And she believed inbeing just -- more than just, kind -- to other people. I never heard her say abad word about anybody. And she went out of her way to make sure that people hadwhat they needed, those around her that she knew, of course. She was a religious 22:00person, but she was not observant in any way, shape, or form. But she did go toservices with me all the time. Since we had started the synagogue, we had sortof an open sesame door, and I could bring -- I always brought my mother andfather, but I always brought Kadia and Simkhe when they came too.
CW:Can you say a little bit about Simkhe -- her husband, Simkhe Lev, right?
ES:Simkhe was a very interesting man. But he didn't reach out, I don't think.
Um, he was educated, he wrote books, he was a journalist, and he became aprinter, a typesetter, for Hebrew, or Jewish, and he was very popular. So they 23:00did all right money-wise, I think. Kadia, of course, always had an iron in thefire. She started her "Svive" magazine -- which I sent, by the way, to theCenter when she died. I sent all the things that we had left. And he was alwayssupportive of her. But I never felt what he was like personally. Kadia oftencame alone, but many -- most of the time she came with him.
CW:And I'd love to return to that conversation you said you were having with her
CW:So can you explain your view on that and -- compared to hers?
ES:My view is that I was born into a religion, I guess I had a certain
relationship with God because I was Jewish, and that the things that thereligion told me to do were important. Kadia didn't feel that way. She believedcompletely in God, more than I do -- or did. Even do. (laughs) And she alwaystalked to him, as a matter of fact -- or her, or it. But she did not think what 25:00was suggested in the -- "suggested" -- commanded in the Torah --
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
ES:-- she believed in reaching out to her fellow man; she believed in justice;
she believed, as I said, in kindness; and she believed in the community ofpeople. The community was so important to her, this being surrounded by Jewishpeople, by the Jewish language, the Jewish feelings, of course Jewish food. Butthat was most important to her, to be part of the group. And I wanted to be partof the group, but I thought Yiddishkayt was part of the religion, and she didn'tsee that at all. 26:00
CW:What language would you communicate with her in?
ES:I believe we were communicating in English. You know, I was brought up with a
double language, and I never noticed which language I was speaking. So I believeI was talking to her in English. But I talked to my grandfather in Yiddish.'Course, when my grandfather came, he did not know English. So it was -- it's alittle hard to tell you. I don't remember. It didn't make an impression on me asto which language I was speaking.
CW:Did you ever visit her in New York?
ES:Oh, often. Not when I was younger, but when we were older, and especially
after my father died. My mother and my brother and I always went up to see Kadia 27:00and Simkhe.
CW:And where did they live?
ES:They lived in Brooklyn. I don't know the exact address. My brother could've
told you. But he drove; I didn't. And they had a small apartment. It was notvery big. And it was covered with books. Now, you can't find a book in myapartment. But that's because my closets are lined with books, not clothes. Buther apartment was covered from head to toe with books, all kinds of books. Andwe went places. I have pictures of Kadia when we went to Coney Island. And sheand Simkhe were with us. And my grandfather came to that one too. So we did dothings. But my mother and Kadia got along so well together. They used to talk 28:00constantly. And probably talking of their childhood -- who remembers? I don't.But one of the times that we went to Coney Island, I met the Hashomer Hatzairgroup, which I enjoyed very much, and I came back -- I was fourteen, I think --and I started looking for a Hashomer Hatzair group here. And there was none.There was one in New Jersey. So I joined the Habonim group. And I went allthrough my life with the Habonim group.
CM:And you met someone famous through that, I hear. Didn't you meet Albert
Einstein through them?
ES:Yes. I did.
CM:Can you tell me about that?
ES:Well, the Habonim group went over to the Hashomer Hatzair group, which was
29:00preparing for transportation to Israel. Illegally, but preparing. (laughs) Andwe had food there, and one of the days that I was there, Albert Einstein and Ithought his wife came with him. And they socialized, and they talked. And I wasso impressed. I knew the name Albert Einstein, even though I was quite young.And I was really taken aback. But he was a very nice, regular guy. And we fedhim corn on the cob, which I cooked. (laughs) And we fed him other things too,but it was really very nice to see him in a natural situation. 30:00
CM:Wow.
ES:My claim to fame. (laughs)
CM:Well, I wanted to ask a little bit about Kadia's writings. What do you know
about the subjects that she wrote about and the kinds of writing that she did?
ES:Well, she wrote about many things. I don't think Kadia was a happy woman. Not
that she didn't smile or laugh or anything, but she did, but she was unimpressedby it, or oppressed, by many of the things she saw in the world. I grew up onher children's things, which were very light and charming. She even wrote a poem 31:00about me, by the way. But later on, of course during the Holocaust period, shewrote a great deal of material -- to God, on many occasions -- telling [us?] tochoose some other people. And she had a great many Holocaust stories. And whenshe lived in Warsaw, she saw a great deal of poverty. And she spoke out aboutit. And she saw a great deal of injustice to women. And she spoke out about it.She was a good writer. I'm always surprised because, I mean, she's my family.(laughs) But she was a good writer. 32:00
CM:And how would you describe her -- the style that she wrote in?
ES:It's hard to say now. I review books, and I do a lot of talking about style
and technique. But at the time that I read her stuff, I was not even aware oftechnique and style. Most of her stuff I read in English except the children's,and I believe I worked my way through "From Lublin to America." I don't knowwhat the true title was. But most of the stuff I read was in English, so youcouldn't tell style.
CW:Yeah. So you grew up with her children's literature?
ES:Oh, yes. I was always reading the -- about the dame [lady] with the huntl
[puppy], big as a punt [pint] and -- she had really lovely children's stories.And I -- oh, not stories, poems. I don't remember reading a children's story.But they were all poems, and that's what I used to read all the time.
CW:And there's one about you?
ES:There's one called "Itkele khinezer [Chinese Edith]," and she told about "One
day I started to speak to match my slanty eyes, and I spoke --" Gee, I haven'tread the poem for a long time. But, uh -- "and then one day I came back and 34:00spoke English." (laughs) But it was a cute little story. But she had lovelystories. Some of them were very thoughtful. I mean, they were all cute storieson the top, but they all had a message underneath. Well, most of them did, anyway.
CW:And do you think she has an audience today?
ES:I think so. We keep getting letters for permission to translate her stuff,
and we always give permission. We only ask for three books, or three of whateverit is, so that we can have them. But -- and I have given all the ones that I getto the Hebrew schools that I run their libraries for. (laughs) I mean, Beth 35:00Tikvah -- which is not my synagogue now, although I still support it -- has agreat deal of Kadia's stuff.
CW:And why do you think people should read her today?
ES:That's a good question. Because I think it speaks to people about the world
around them. And the world is not always a pretty place. But she always made itso interesting. That's a nice thought. And she has beautiful language. She wasable to describe things or evoke an emotion. I think I'm gonna do that. I'm 36:00gonna go back and read her stuff and find out what her style was (laughs) andwhat her technique was and whether I would approve of it today.
CW:You can write a book review. (laughs)
ES:Yes.
CW:Well, is there anything about her life that stands out to you when you think
about what she lived through that you might want to share?
ES:Not really. She had a whole life in New York that I did not know about. She
had friends there. She had fellow poets there that she associated with. Sherarely talked about them when she came here. This was home to her. I mean, it 37:00may not have been her home, per se, but it was home to her. And when she camehere she would talk to my mother about her life, about her feelings -- but itwas always to my mother.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
ES:The necklace was given to my mother, and I persuaded her to leave it to me.
(laughs) It is a handmade thing. It's a locket. It opens. And inside is a motherand child with an angel in the background. There's a table with flowers on it.And in the back is a guardian angel. And it was handmade by a man named(UNCLEAR). I assume he was German; I have no idea. I tried to have it insured 38:00once, and the man said to me, "It's irreplaceable. If it's worth two thousanddollars to you, insure it for two thousand. If it's worth five thousand, insureit for five thousand." But it's priceless to me because it came from Kadia. AndI would never sell it. And if I lost it I could not replace it, so I neverinsured it.
CW:So that -- do you remember Kadia wearing that?
ES:I do not remember Kadia wearing that, because she gave it to my mother.
CW:Wow. It's beautiful.
ES:It's my mother who wore it.
CW:It's beautiful.
ES:But she bought it, obviously, in Europe. Yeah. She had been -- Kadia went all
over in Europe. I have pictures of her in Paris. And I have a couple missing. I 39:00went through them, and they're -- I don't have them all. I may have given themto Kathryn Hellerstein because there were many people that I did not know, andthey were fellow artists, poets, whatever. So I left them with that. All right.Let me show you what I have.
CW:Okay. Fantastic.
ES:No, that's not the right one. Where's the one with Kartuzka? Oh yes, that's
the one. Okay. This is where they lived.
CW:So if you can actually just hold it up, and I'll look at them --
ES:Okay.
CW:-- more closely later (UNCLEAR).
ES:This is a picture of where they live, and I believe that's Kadia outside. But
the three women look very much alike. And I can't tell on the early ones. And 40:00that's where they lived, in Kartuzka. And this is the synagogue that mygrandfather taught at, also in Kartuzka.
CW:Wow.
ES:And this is Kadia. This is dated 1907. So in '07 she was -- seven and five --
twelve? And it's a beautiful picture of her. Now, here she has style. (laughs)
CW:Maybe she borrowed it from the photographer. (laughs)
ES:Yeah, maybe. Um -- I doubt it. My grandmother probably was -- my grandmother
41:00was a very -- I think came from a very sophisticated family. And I don't knowmuch about her, but -- this is my grandfather and Leybl and Kadia and Simkhe, in Europe.
CW:And Leybl is your uncle?
ES:Yes. He was killed during the war. He was running away from a Soviet Union --
a Russian -- concentration camp when he was killed. And his wife and his childwere picked up in Warsaw and killed -- well, we don't know if they were killed.We don't know what happened to them. There's no way of tracing it. We tried. 42:00This is my father. I don't know if that's --
CW:And what's his name?
ES:Isadore Litman. And he and my mother ran the store together. He was a nice
man. I would come to him and ask him for money, and he'd say, "You want moneyagain? You want five dollars?", and he would hand me ten. He was really a niceguy. And this is my mother, but what I like about it is the outfit.
CW:So which one is your mother? In the middle, on --
ES:No, this one's my mother, on the right. On the left. Whichever it is on your side.
CW:Yeah. And who are the other people in there?
ES:I don't know them.
CW:Huh.
ES:But it's obviously someone she knew. Oh, these are all my mother and Lena. I
43:00don't know -- that's the krasavitse and my mother. And I think my mother is asbeautiful as Lena was. Because I'm prejudiced. But take a look at this one. Youmust admit my mother's beautiful. (laughs)
CW:Definitely. Were they close as well?
ES:Yes and no. Lena was her own person. She married early. I think she came to
America, actually, to find this man. She had known him in Europe. And shemarried him. So they were married way before my mother. And here's one when they 44:00first came to America.
CW:So did they come together?
ES:Lena and my mother did, yes. Yes, they did.
CW:At about that age. So as teenagers, or -- were they teenagers?
ES:My mother was eighteen in 1913? Couldn't have been. Thirteen and four.
Thirteen and five. She was eighteen when she came over, yeah. This is my motherand her best friend, Bryna. You know, I've heard of Bryna all my life, and Inever knew her. It's a shame, because it's a name and a face that I wouldrecognize. These are my mother's pictures. There's Lena and my mother -- I'm 45:00looking for the ones of K-- oh. Here is my grandmother, Itke, Kadia's mother.And she was a very interesting woman. My mother used to tell me stories abouther. It was quite --
CW:Businesswoman. (laughs)
ES:Yes. This is a very interesting picture. This is a picture of my mother -- my
mother -- my mother and Kadia, my grandfather, my grandmother, and Leybl, thewhole family. And this is a -- they were very young.
ES:Yes, it says '11. But 1911, my mother was older than that. I don't know who
put the date on. My mother came over in 1913. And she was almost eighteen. Shedoesn't look eighteen here. So I don't know who did it. And this one is mygrandfather and my grandmother, Itke, and Leybl. We have lots of pictures ofLeybl. And here is my grandfather, and he's so young-looking he looks like mybrother. The face, not the beard, of course. But that's --
ES:Not quite. He was not that young. That's a young picture taken in Europe.
This is more what my grandfather looked like when I knew him. And I must showyou this picture of Lena the krasavets [good-looking young person]. (laughs)
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
ES:Now, this is Kadia and a friend. I do not know the friend. Maybe you can read
it. I find the written Yiddish very difficult to read. I can write it, but Ican't read it. (laughs) No?
CW:Yeah, I can't -- it might -- it almost looks like Polish or something, but --
ES:Yeah.
CW:-- it's very hard to -- scribbled "1913," though.
ES:Right. And here is Kadia and Simkhe in Paris. I have several copies of them.
48:00Someone obviously took two, one right after the other. 'Course, the backgroundis slightly different. And this is Kadia and Simkhe in America when they firstcame. Well, they didn't come together. Kadia came in 1935, and Simkhe came in'38, I believe.
CW:So is that the kind of thing she would wear?
ES:No, that's quite fashionable. (laughs) Well, that was her early pictures. And
here is a much older picture -- that is, she's much older.
CW:Is that what she -- is that how you remember her?
ES:Yes, I remember her that way. But she was already ill, I think, at that point.
CW:And eventually she moved here, right? 'Cause she --
ES:She did not move here. We moved her here to a nursing home. She had a form of
dementia. And we went up one day, and we told Simkhe he must make a will. And hesays, "No, I will be able to take care of her." And unfortunately he died andleft her alone. And we went up as often as we could, but it was too hard, so webrought her here. And, you know, my mother ended up feeding her. She used to buyher baby food so she could feed her, and it was a hard time for my mother. And 50:00here's a -- this is a very nice picture of them, of Kadia and Simkhe.
CW:From a newspaper or something, yeah.
ES:Yes. And here's Kadia and Leybl and Simkhe. This is still in Europe.
CW:She looks very intellectual. (laughs)
ES:Yes. And here's Kadia and Leybl and my grandfather, still in Europe. And this
is Kadia and my grandfather, probably in Atlantic City, you know, one of thoseself-portrait things.
CW:That's fun!
ES:Nothing was ever labeled. And it's a shame. And this is a picture of my
51:00grandmother's grave. My grandfather, obviously, sent it to my mother so shewould see. I'd like to go back and see whether it's there. And here we are in --I guess it's Coney Island, or one of the islands in New York. My mother and myfather and Kadia and Simkhe.
CW:The Statue of Liberty. (laughs)
ES:Yes.
CW:Nice.
ES:And here is my mother, Kadia, my grandfather, my brother, and I. This is in
Philadelphia. We were in Fairmount Park or somewhere. Oops. I goofed. 52:00
CW:You labeled that one.
ES:Oh, I did?
CW:You did.
ES:(laughs) That was Philadelphia already. Here's another picture of them, in France.
CW:Oh yeah.
ES:And here's a very pretty picture of them in Europe. I don't know where.
CW:Look at that outfit. Wow. (laughs)
ES:Well, that's a stunning outfit, I assume, for the time. Here's Kadia and
Simkhe and a friend, I do not know who. The problem is I don't know the names toput on these things. And this is Simkhe by the Wailing Wall. This has a date.Forty-two? No.
ES:And here we all are at a wedding, but it's not Kadia. It's my mother and
Lisa, which is a grandniece. But it's not -- it's only my family.
CW:Looks like the late '60s, maybe? From the outfits?
ES:Yeah, probably.
CW:Wonderful.
ES:Let's see what else I got. I don't know. Oh, these are all my grandfather's
pictures. My grandfather was a very, uh, popular man in his time. I didn't know 56:00it. To me he was just my grandfather. But when I went researching my mother'sside of the family to find out who Itke's mother was, I found so many write-upsof my grandfather, I was really amazed. And that things existed, that there wereso many writings of these people.
CW:Wow.
ES:But these are all my grandfather.
CW:I'm just -- gonna sneeze, just to warn you.
ES:This is him in Europe. (Whitney sneezes) He's young there.
CW:Oh yeah.
ES:Here he is at Fairmount Park. And here he is in Atlantic City. My father's in
57:00the background, but the little boy in the far background is the grown-up man whomade the --
CW:-- photographs?
ES:-- the pictures.
CW:Wow. (laughs)
ES:And here he is -- this is a newspaper article. He was operated on when he was
ninety-three for a cataract operation. And at that time they had to put sandbagsaround the head so that it didn't move. And he went through it at ninety-three.He hit the papers. These are all just pictures of my grandfather.
CW:Wonderful. I had a couple questions about Philadelphia that I forgot to ask.
Did you ever go to a Yiddish theater in town? 58:00
ES:All the time. I saw Menasha Skulnik till he came out of my ears. He was wonderful.
CW:Where was the theater back then?
ES:This theater was on Fifth and Girard, I believe.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
ES:And we used to go -- maybe every month? We went often to the Je-- Yiddish theater.
CW:And what did the building look like, or what do you remember about what the
scene was?
ES:I was little. I don't remember. You know, the things you do remember are the
things that impress you. As far as I remember, it was just the theater.
CW:And Menasha Skulnik was there?
ES:Oh, I loved him. I always went to him. But I saw many other people. The shows
were always alike. There was always a problem with the family. Maybe two 59:00children had been separated, and later, when they started to get married, theyfound out they were related; they were brother and sister. Or an older sisterwould sacrifice her own love when her boyfriend decided he wanted to marry theyounger sister. It was -- they were all the same type of thing. And then therewas Menasha Skulnik. "Mame tut zikh on. Zi hot nit keyn fis. [Mother getsdressed up. She doesn't have any feet.]" There was a picture of a woman therewith a long dress. And Menasha Skulnik and his mother came to see the kale[bride] before they were married. And he took a look at the picture and he said-- I'll never forget this, obviously -- "Mame tut zikh on. Zi hot nit keyn fis." 60:00(laughs) It was an interesting way of life we lived too. My mother and fatherhad no time off. The store was open 365 days a week. The -- no. Let's take it --363. They took off Rosh Hashanah -- or let's -- sixty-two. They took off RoshHashanah and Yom Kippur. But otherwise the store was always open. I rememberbecause on the second day of Rosh Hashanah we always went shopping. I don'tremember ever buying anything, but I know we went shopping. Or we went lookingat stores. Maybe to look at the children's things, I don't remember. My mother 61:00was a left-handed woman that they did not allow to be left-handed in Europe. Sothey taught her to be a seamstress, and they forced her to write and to sew andto do everything with her right hand. Today that would be a horror. But I havesome very good memories of my mother (laughs) sewing for me. She always mademany of my clothes. And I remember once in college I came home, and I told herthat I saw an outfit I wanted very badly. She said, "Go and buy it. I'll look atit, and if I can make it, I'll make it." And I brought it home, and she lookedat it, and she -- I tried it on for her, and she says, "You know what? Keep it." 62:00(laughs) She was a great woman, my mother.
CW:I wonder if you'd be willing to maybe read one of the poems, if we find one?
ES:I don't think I could.
CW:In --
ES:In English, maybe.
CW:-- in English? Yeah.
ES:Oh, sure.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
ES:"'My Room Then Is a Ship': My room, then, is a ship, because/It rocks me in
my bed,/Exactly as if the whole house/Stood praying on the waves./And though noone else is in the room,/The room is full of noise./And though the windows andthe doors are closed,/It's open through and through./And I, though wearing askirt and blouse,/Am nude from head to toe./And though my heart is with my 63:00God,/A terror is always in my hair." You have to think about that one.
CW:Um-hm.
ES:[pauses while looking through book, 1:03:15 - 1:03:47] "'My Paper Bridge':
Today she walked across my paper bridge/(The very one I cross to happiness)/A 64:00sixty-year-old woman, surely sixty,/With freezing-cold, bare feet./We met eachother, stayed here for a while./I, simply because I had nowhere to go./And shespoke, as if to me and to herself/About thread, about wood, about shoes./Thepaper bridge of mine, I built it when/Not only the sky but my eyes turnedblue,/And the sun was a golden heel on its own path/That led my feet straightand true./I contemplated a household and a bed,/And golden days and nights 65:00bursting with stars,/I contemplated a husband and a child,/And a green springsand brown summers./I contemplated a letter and a road,/A wave-filled sea, and aship of radiant light./I contemplated the singsong of a train/And sailors fromwherever, as blue as night./But I didn't conceive of shoes for thissixty-year-old woman./And today we stood there, chatting away, just so,/Shewithout shoes while her bones were freezing,/And I, simply -- because I had 66:00nowhere else to go." That's a shame. You have to think about her stuff. She'snot just on the surface. Which reminds me of another thing about Kadia. I thinkshe and my mother were such friends because my mother always wanted to learn,where Kadia had, and Kadia always wanted a family and never had. It was a truefriendship. But it was deep.
CW:Do you feel as an artist any -- I mean, is that a connection for you to her?
ES:I don't really think that as an artist it makes any difference. Maybe if I
were a poet. I do write. I write reviews of books. But it's not the same becauseI'm not expressing my own ideas, except what I think about something. She was areal talent. I'm not a real talent. But I do many things. I paint. I didpottery. I read, I review, I knit. I'm known in my family as the "afghan woman."When somebody gets married I knit them a double afghan so that they can both getunder at the same time. And everybody gets an afghan who gets married. And my 68:00granddaughter's not married yet, and she came to me and said, "I want anafghan." And I said, "Get married." But she convinced me. (laughs) I made her anafghan. Oh, well.
CW:Do you remember when she -- when Kadia died?
ES:Yes, I remember. It was a bad time for my mother. But I think Kadia was
better off, because she didn't know anybody or anything. She didn't even know mymother at the end. And it was hard. It's very hard to be a caretaker.
CW:Was there a big funeral, memorial service, or --
ES:Uh, no? It was not held here. Obviously she had requested that she be buried
69:00in New Jersey, and I don't know that I went to the funeral, as a matter of fact.I was already working. I was a teacher. I was the librarian, but I was ateacher. And I don't think I went. I don't know why. I'm trying to think. Icoulda gotten the day off; that was not the problem. Oh well. It was '74?Seventy-five. I don't remember why I didn't go.