DAN DROPKIN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is March 22nd, 2018. I'm here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania with Dan Dropkin. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

DAN DROPKIN: Of course.

CW:(laughs) Thank you. So, we're gonna be talking mostly about a specific member of your family today. Could you introduce that person and tell me how you're related to her?

DD:Well, we're talking about Celia Dropkin, Yiddish poet and painter, and my grandmother. And most of my memories are -- you know, I saw her through the eyes 1:00of a child. She died in '56. I was born in '47, so that makes me about nine years old. But I would say I'm very attached to her, all through my life, stuff -- she always meant a lot to me. And now, even more and more because of your people's work and translations and et cetera.

CW:Can you just explain which of your parents is connected to her?

DD:My father is her son. Henry Dropkin.

CW:Great. And do you know much about Celia's biography, where she was born and when?

DD:I know it from family lore and from reading and so on. We're talking about what is now Belarus and Bobruysk, if I'm pronouncing it correctly. And in my reading and so on, she, because her father died young -- and I don't think she 2:00came from a wealthy family. But she was transferred -- Jewish tradition and raised in another household. And I think the woman in that household is Feiga, Feige, because my aunt Esther is -- I can recall her telling me a few stories about Feigele because she must have -- came to the United States, as well, and so on. And the reason she came here is her father was quite revolutionary. And his brother -- what I've been told is his brother was publicly hung in -- maybe the square of the town. That might not be quite correct, but in public and stuff and he had to leave. He was a very big man, I mean, in physical stature. And so, his age was -- he was considered older than he really was. And he was in prison 3:00and he met some of the famous revolutionaries that led up to the Russian Revolution, so on. So, she came 1910; he comes over in 1912, I think they say. And he started organizing in this country. (laughs)

CW:Do you have an image of what your grandmother's childhood was like?

DD:No, I don't. This is a mystery and this is some of the attraction of this stuff. Mystical connection.

CW:And --

DD:I do know that she was in Warsaw and stuff and had the education, and I would say she was writing poetry pretty early, in Russian. I don't know how much she was using Yiddish in the Old Country, but Bobruysk had this -- half the population were Jews, so I'm thinking, Oh, they had the high and the low, from 4:00the peasant to the rabbis to the intellectuals and so on. And there are other well-known families in this country that -- their origin was from that same place.

CW:So, how, just to establish -- when would you see her, how often when you were growing up?

DD:I saw her pretty often because there were very frequent trips. We lived in Harrisburg --- I was raised in Harrisburg -- and there were very frequent trips to visit relatives in New York. And the ones we stayed with most often, probably four times more or five times more than anybody else, was aunt Esther's house. Now, that's significant because Esther and her husband, Abe Unger -- and you've met Elizabeth. And I don't know if you've seen Nicky, but that's the children. We stayed there, and there's grandma Celia the whole time in my childhood. And 5:00also, there was a period, I think I was about five years old, but I do have -- they're foggy memories, but she visited us and stayed probably about a week when we were in Harrisburg. In fact, the painting, "Harrisburg," was painted from my bedroom window.

CW:Can you describe a little bit about -- first, just the home that you grew up in?

DD:What are you looking for?

CW:Well, what kind of -- where was your room in the house? What kind of house was it?

DD:My parents didn't have a lot of money. They got comfortable later on and so on. And I can barely remember my room. I think it was on the second floor, and nothing ostentatious. And the neighborhood was kind of a rough neighborhood as I grew up. I would say about five or six years old, I was with friends and they 6:00were already teaching me how to steal and so on, that type of thing. And fights pretty often. On the other hand, close to us was a Reverend [Hendley?] and he was head of the NAACP and my father was friendly with him and marched with him and so on. My father was an activist himself. My mother fairly recently passed away and the last time I saw her, we gathered. My sister, Celia, named after Celia, was in Houston, Texas at the time. Now she's in Fort Worth. And my mother was there and there was a box of letters. And they were supposed to be love letters, and we kind of laughed about it because (laughs) -- the content. But there was a letter there that really stuck in my mind and that was my father telling my mother that he's dedicating his life to helping the workers' class 7:00and he's gonna fight the corporations and stuff and it's not gonna be an easy life. And she can back out or she can stay with him. And so, from a young age, I was kind of aware of the social activism and so on. And then, as I grew older -- and when grandma Celia was still alive, when there was family gatherings at Esther's place and so on, the discussions were really animated and high-powered with members of the family. I don't know if you have a sense of the intellect and the achievements of this family.

CW:Why don't you talk a little bit about it?

DD:Well, in those discussions, they were very animated and so on. And I was always aware my grandmother would be sitting there, and she never said a word. She never entered those discussions. And I'm wondering if -- there were many 8:00people in the family that were political, including my father and my aunt Esther, and Abe, so on. And I'm wondering if she was apolitical. She had a different take on life. And I can remember -- I listened to some of the interviews and they said -- aunt Ruth described her as dour and so on. But there was another take to her, and they used to say, Oh, she gets along with everybody, even the Irish cop on the beat. That was a phrase I heard over and over again. And sometimes, I'd look at her and she would smile. But she would never enter into those discussions. And they got pretty animated, and voices raising and so on, discussing a lot of the political dynamics and --

CW:So, what was going on when you were growing up, just to give some background? 9:00What would they have been debating?

DD:They had a whole different view of the direction of this society, more of a socialist view, and they were fighting for this. One example of that, it's very interesting. When people died, passed away, very often they'd have a memorial. And I went to Abe's memorial, who was Esther's husband, and there was a guy -- I distorted his name, but was Otto Bueller, Otto Muell, something like that. He was the executor of Einstein's estate. And how he met my uncle is early in the Vietnam War, my uncle was going -- I think it was around Times Square to protest. Hardly anybody was going there, but this guy Otto was going there, too, and they met.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

DD: This guy who was executor of Einstein's estate was one of the speakers at 10:00the memorial and he said, "In my life, I've met two people with this tremendous clarity of thought and insight" and so on, and one was Einstein, of course, and the other was my uncle. But this was very early. They knew exactly what they wanted to do. They had a purpose and a vision. I don't know what they would think today. (laughs) There was my grandfather -- my father dedicating his life to basically a working-class struggle and so on. And my cousin, Nick -- one thing I should say about those discussions, and even after my grandmother died and stuff, I don't know if everybody would be as intently interested in them as I was, but I really listened and I really absorbed and so on. And I consider 11:00that part of my education and background. I mean, a very important part, as important as going to school.

CW:Right. What was Jewish about your home growing up?

DD:Very little. The whole family -- there were some people that did know how to carry on a seder and stuff. My father wasn't one of those, and he was kind of oblivious to all these things in different ways, although ethnically we knew he was Jewish. He would use some Yiddish at times and so on. But I was not schooled in the traditions. They did send me to a Jewish community center, like a kindergarten, and that was my exposure. My sister, who's younger, did attend synagogues and stuff. She had the most exposure of all of us and I think my 12:00parents thought, Well, it's difficult to be on the outside. Maybe this'll help her integrate. But I was raised, really, as an atheist, yeah. And I got in trouble for it in school and so on, yeah.

CW:With teachers or other kids or --

DD:Teachers punished and so on. We had to do the Lord's Prayer every day. And I think I was in tenth grade and one time I put my fingers in the guy standing in front of me's pocket, and I pulled him back a little bit. And the teacher saw this and she was a wife of a minister -- and I was in the principal's office. I was all over the -- really screaming at me and stuff. And forget what I did. I was in elementary school and everybody had to read the Bible. Had to take turns in reading the Bible. And I forget the exact incident, but I was stuck in the 13:00coatroom with the door shut and stuff for several days. That's where I had to go, because this was the climate, and I'm really in a different place in terms of my background. (laughs)

CW:Do you want to just mention your mother's background?

DD:Yeah, it's very interesting. On one side, I'm doing these visits to New York and so on and I'm seeing this -- examples of high intellectual activity and of people that knew things about culture and people that -- really literate and cultured people. And the trips to -- my mother was raised in the rural South. You see pictures of the family. There's no shoes and so on. My grandfather, Arlie Bishop, was a sawyer, which meant he took crews in and estimated timber, 14:00set up a temporary sawmill and so on. And this side is radically different. One, it's the intellectual -- and there's theoreticians, political theoreticians and things about science, things about sport, everything. And the other side is very earthy. And my grandfather told stories. He smoked his pipe in the evening and then he was a great storyteller, among other things. And I realize, looking back, every story, the common man was the hero. The common man. They would always -- what are these guys gonna do if they come here? How are they gonna live? Because there was long periods of unemployment. Now, they had land and they grew some crops and they canned and so on. But they also knew that area, and it was like using the commons. I mean, this was near the Green River. I don't know if you've ever heard the song "Paradise," but that was John Prine, 15:00and it describes this, how Peabody Coal came in and ruined it and Green River was dead. Well, that was considered the deepest river in the United States and they could live off of that. They would put nets across and so on and come back so many days later and these fish were forty, fifty pound. They called them buffalo, they'd skin 'em up. People would come for the meat and so on. And they got along with my father. My grandfather told me when he first met my father, he called him Hank. He said, "You know, Hank, looked in the fields and there's crops growing." He said, "What is this? What are -- this?]?" And now my grandfather said, "Why, that's tobacky, Hank." (laughs) He didn't know a thing about it and stuff. But, boy, did they treat him nice. And part of it is because they, in their own way, were very militant about workers' rights and so on. And 16:00western Kentucky has more of that. Eastern Kentucky is more conservative and so on. But my uncle, well, to give you -- this tells you something, to give you the names: my mother's Wilma Jean, my grandfather's Arlie. My grandmother who had the Indian and so on is Rena. And there's an aunt Thelma who basically raised the kids, she's the oldest daughter, 'cause my grandmother had -- I don't know the full story, but there were times when she was institutionalized. Mental things. And when they moved -- in the South, you move into a shack that's abandoned and so on. So, there's multiple kids sleeping in the same bed. As I picture, there might be leaks and so on. And you're moving a whole number of times a year because of the nature of the work and so on. But the skills were amazing, like the hunting skills, the marksmanship, the ability to do things. 17:00Every time I came down there, my grandfather was doing something else. When he was very old, I have a picture buried somewhere -- big net that he's weaving for these hundred-pound cats that drop in the bottom of the Green River. That cedar chest -- this is not his but that came from that area and we looked and looked for cedar, the time -- they almost milled it out -- but there's another one in the back room that he made. And he pretty well built his own house and early on, they were -- you had a steep hill and stuff and that's where you got your water. It was later on that they actually got water and stuff. He didn't let -- my grandfather, Arlie, didn't like politicians, but he had buttons of Roosevelt and so on, 'cause Roosevelt really -- his hero, bringing the electricity and bettering the standard of living and so on. Let's see, I was going through family names and I got distracted, but aunt Thelma and my mother, Wilma Jean, 18:00and my uncle was Thomas Henry. Everybody called him Haney. Didn't wear shoes very often. They'd go out in the woods with -- not tents and not gear but a rifle and probably some matches. He'd be out there for two or three weeks. And he said, "I need to do that." But I'm thinking that -- the Indian blood. That's why -- (laughs) romantic notion of this. And so, that experience was very important to me, as well, because the earthy side and seeing the way -- Americana that may not exist anymore, I don't know, and so on. And the storytelling was amazing. My grandfather was -- I just loved him. Now, there was a lot of tension between my mother and her father, my grandfather, and that disturbed my relationship because usually in a visit, she'd get angry at him. 19:00And this was based on the tough childhood and so on. And they'd get to my grandfather's house, it was a dirt road and stuff, Bishop Lane. And that family had a reputation for their hunting dogs and for this and that, and their skills. And the whole lifestyle was very different. It was more relaxed; people always had time to talk, you piddle around, that kind of thing. And frequently, my uncle Haney, I've heard him say, "I got to get Hank to relax, 'cause he's very anxious" and so on. And they would take him here and there and stuff. So, I think that those two influences really enriched my life. That formed the basis. Yeah, they both had a strong influence. Not a bad idea to have earthiness in the intellectual. And I've always identified -- I knew I had Native American in me 20:00from the time I was young and that got me beat up, too. (laughs)

CW:Yeah, so what was it like to grow up in Harrisburg, sort of between both of these roots -- but for you growing up with that identity in Harrisburg?

DD:Well, one thing is there was probably a sense of lack of belonging. For example, I was in the Cub Scouts for a while and then they started giving merit badges for church. I didn't get any. Aren't you going to church? That kind of stuff. And then, there were -- in that neighborhood or in the vicinity, there were people who hated Jews. So, we got stuff painted on our windows and things like that, and some other people in that area. And as I was growing up --- and this is after grandma Celia's death -- probably was in a fight almost every day 21:00or every other day. And if there wasn't something to fight about, it's like, Okay, you fight him and things like that. And my father wasn't there a lot. He used to come home late and so on. And I really think my -- I was thinking about this last night and it occurred to me that the lack of nurturing in a practical sense -- and that's taken a toll on my life in a sense, 'cause I've never been practical at all. But I think Esther tried to fill that gap, because she was the one that talked to me -- she was a poet, as well -- and read poems and explain those poems to me and talk about direction in life. And I used to say she was great at crystallizing these ideas and thoughts. And I think it was a whole -- I 22:00didn't even intend to go to college. There was not that kind of nurturing or planning in that household. And I think it was probably aunt Esther who said, "What the hell are you" -- (laughs) and my father screamed at me to fill out the applications and so on. Between tenth and eleventh grade, I had a job at the steel mill and I thought, Okay, that's where I'll be. It's making better money than I ever -- to be afterwards. So, I would say Esther was, at certain points, telling my dad to do this or do that or, "What are you doing?" The other thing is grandma Celia was somewhat involved because later on, I heard that -- and really several times, but certain things stick in your mind, even if you hear 'em when you're young. And there was a lot of contention in my household. When I 23:00was young, there was a lot of screaming and yelling and sometimes throwing things and all that. And my grandma Celia probably tried to intervene in some way, and it was -- I forget what the exact words -- "Go easy on Dan because he's a fine cloth." The other thing about -- relationship with my grandmother is my name: she named me. Daniel Joseph, yeah.

CW:And how did -- do you know any more about that?

DD:No, I don't. Probably, you know, my father loved his mother and I think all the children did. And she probably had the influence. She probably suggested the name. But I don't know the details, how that happened, but I do know that she named me.

CW:Wow. So, when you were growing up, were you aware of your grandmother's art, of her writing and painting?

DD:The paintings more than the poetry, because the paintings were in Esther's 24:00house. We had paintings and so on. And my chronology may be a little confused. Maybe I saw those after she died and they got divided up. But you always saw her paintings and so on. And in the visits to New York, even when I was very little, one thing that fascinated me was she had these shelves in the room, which I guess used to be Elizabeth's room, and all the clay figures that -- and the modeling and so on. That's like, Wow, what is she doing? That type of thing. So, I was aware of that. Now, the appreciation of her poetry, I was aware that she was a poet. If we went to -- we had gatherings like Thanksgiving and so on at uncle John's. Part of the festivities were reading her poems in Yiddish. And the 25:00one that was always read was the one I would refer to as "The Cradle Song." And that's, to my father, that's "The Little Golden Head -- sleep" -- I'm not sure if that poem is in the book that's translated. But it was always told this was written to Henry and stuff. And it sticks in my mind, but I can't reference it in stuff that his -- that my dad's Henry, but his actual name, and Esther may have told me this or maybe I'm confused, was actually [Euro Yulnissen?]. (laughs) From Nissen. And I forgot what your question was. (laughs)

CW:No, that was great. (laughter) You answered it. (laughs) I'm curious if you were to describe her, your grandmother, to someone who didn't know her, who 26:00hadn't heard of her name, how would you describe her?

DD:Well, I'm seeing her through the eyes of a child. And listening to these interviews, I'm realizing that other people saw her in different ways and interacted with her somewhat differently. But to me, tremendous warmth. I was always aware that she loved me and her -- we see the paintings and now I realize that wherever she was, these paintings are like out the bedroom window in the New York apartment that's the one with the sun and the peddler and stuff. I was glad to -- I'm finding out more about it listening to the interview with Elizabeth and stuff. But I'm losing my train of thought.

CW:Well, just how would you explain --

DD:Oh.

CW:-- who she was to someone who didn't know her?

DD:Well, to me, she was incredibly warm and really interactive with people she didn't know and stuff, even the Irish cop on the beat. That really fixed in my 27:00mind. And then, I was always aware that she loved me and she was thinking about me, 'cause all these -- yeah, that's where I left off -- all these travels and stuff, you see the painting in Florida, the painting in Vermont and stuff, always getting cards from her. "Your grandma, Celia." One had a little -- I must have been four or five -- one had a little thing that you could squeeze and it made a squeak. And I forgot if that was a bunny or something and I was like, Boy, I love that one. But I was always aware -- I think she made me feel like I'm special. And I still feel that way. And I think more of that came from her than it came from my parents or anybody else. And there's another anecdote: when she visited us in Harrisburg, one thing that was -- we had breakfast and it was 28:00oatmeal or some of the breakfast was oatmeal and I -- "Mom, give me more -- I want more sugar!" Says, "No, no." (laughs) Grandma Celia -- (laughs) and these things -- so, I was always aware that she was full of love for me and I always felt that I was special and I think she helped me to feel that way about myself. So, even though I was very young and stuff, she -- even today, big impact in my life and the way I feel about myself and so on.

CW:When you think of her, can you describe what she looked like in your memory?

DD:Well, like the pictures. (laughs) She had a wonderful smile. Now, they say in all the -- that particular picture is when she smiled and stuff, or that she 29:00didn't usually smile. And that was a picture from uncle John -- caught her smiling. But I remember her big smile. Then, there was a game she played with me when I was very young, and it sticks in my mind although I can't -- it was a Yiddish -- and maybe you have heard of this. I haven't met anybody that has, but just take your hand and she would go in circles. And it was, (sings) "Da-da-da da-da-da da-d--" And I paraphrase it, but I'm sure I've completely distorted it this time. It was kind of like, "Seruka, veronta, kasha, belila," you know, that kind of thing. And then, "Adama, Adam," and pull your fingers and stuff. And then we'd all laugh and this -- these were glorious times when you're a kid. And the bond between the grandparents and the grandchildren is a strong -- can be a strong bond and certainly it was with her. Incredibly strong. It was something 30:00-- recently I was reading about -- very recently about the development in science and how they used to think that it was mechanistic, that everything -- Galileo thought this. Everything could be -- you could build a model and stuff and reproduce science, like maybe the way the tides moved and so on. And [DeClerk?] kind of started moving away from that. But the guy who blew it wide open -- and you would think, Well, though he's really pinpointing science -- is Isaac Newton because he invents calculus, he has the F equals MA, and all these things. But the other part of it is he said there's mystical forces that we're never gonna build a machine or a model of, and this is gravity, this is light and stuff. And I think that happens between people, as well. So, that's really what I'm talking about, 'cause I don't -- there's so many holes in the memory 31:00and what she was like as a child and all these things. But yet, there's a mystical attachment or maybe that not knowing everything creates interest, as well. And now, in the last ten, fifteen years or so, her poetry -- and I'm like, Well, this is really -- that she really had it. In fact, it was about seven, eight years ago in this town, in Carlisle, that Rita Dove came into town. And do you know Rita Dove?

CW:I know the name, yeah.

DD:Poet laureate of the United States at one point. She's a black woman married to a white German and did some schooling in Germany and stuff. And poet laureate of Virginia. She was at University of Virginia, Charlottesville. And so, she came to town and there's a little bookstore here, which I use rather than ordering on Amazon and stuff called the Whistlestop. And she did a book signing 32:00there, so I bought a book and I waited in line. And when I got to her, she signed my book and I said, "My grandmother is a poet. Have you ever heard of her?" "No, I never have." And, "I'd like to read her." I said, "Well, she wrote in Yiddish, but I've been trying to collect translations and I'd be happy to give them to you." And she liked that idea. So, the next day, she did a lecture in an auditorium and at Dickinson and I went there. And I gathered -- I copied what I had copies at home. It's before "The Acrobat" came out, which -- I always say "Circus Lady." Everybody said "Circus Lady." "Circus Lady" sounds like it has a little more mystery to it to me. But the family always said "Circus Lady." And I managed to give her this folio with some of the poems and my email address. And I didn't hear from her for a long time. And finally, I got an email 33:00and she said, "I apologize, because I wanted to correspond with you sooner. But I put it in the drafts and now I found it there." And the first sentence in her message was, "I am astonished and ashamed. And the shame, of course, was that I didn't know anything about her. And the astonishment was the power of those poems." And so, here's the poet laureate of the United States that's very impressed. I don't think she's making this up. And she said, "It reminds me of my favorite poet." Who's German, German poet and stuff. So, really impressed her. And all these things are -- and then, I went through a period. It was based on a relationship with a woman who did craft shows all her life. And so, I was part of that business for a while and did craft shows. There was once we did Gaithersburg. It's around Washington, DC. And so, Jean and I are doing this 34:00craft show and she's putting -- and we were married about five or six years. It kind of blew up. That's why I'm here now. And so, there was a family and they -- Jewish. So, they look at the name. "Are you related to Celia Dropkin?" and that stuff. Now, when we did the show in Northampton, Massachusetts, there was -- a similar thing happened. This guy said, "If you're related to Celia Dropkin, you can stay at my house. I'll feed you." It's like, Wow! And he said, "Be sure to go to the National Yiddish Book Center," which I had never seen and didn't think much about. It's Hampshire College. And we did go there. And part of it was I had lost the book. I lent it to somebody who didn't return it and I wanted to replace it. And yeah, everybody knew the book. Everybody knew her. And then, I 35:00take a walk through the Yiddish Writers Garden and I remember the plaque: "This represents 120 of the greatest Yiddish writers." I didn't know she was in there. I'm not sure the family knew she was in there. And I'm like, Wow. We were stunned. And I think "The Circus Lady" was the poem on the plaque, actually. And she's in the section, "A Rebel." And I forgot, I think Bashevis Singer might have been that same section. But she was friendly with him. And I enjoyed some of the -- there was a -- couple short stories that were translated and I enjoyed those very much, too. People say they're not as strong as her poems, but one of them seems pretty strong to me. There was one -- I forgot the title of it and I don't know where that book is. I have to dig and dig. Some are in boxes at this 36:00point. But this was a woman who really wanted to be a dancer and had these dreams. And then, she gets married and now she has duties and so on in her role as a mother. But she isn't satisfied spiritually. So, the story, at the end of the story, she's on her deathbed and she's having visions. And the visions are clouds and dancing in the clouds and so on. These things hit very deep, deeply, and I think she's talking about human experience that we all share, and some that we don't talk about, but we all share. And the idea that -- it also impressed me that the poem, "To a Young Poet" -- that this poetry is coming from a deeper place than just intellect and stuff. And that preface of the book says 37:00she's loaded with dynamite. Well, that one certainly is. Sure, you think you love him like a son, but you've got to "burn in hell three times like me." But that's part of love, too. I mean, often we see the movies and stuff and things are idealized. They might talk about the heartbreak in some movies, but often there's a happy ending and so on and love is this -- everything's great. But we've all gone through experiences, I certainly have, that really just hit on you psychologically so deeply and with negative -- a place you don't want to be. And that's true with love, too. Love has the other -- everything is paradox. Everything has its opposites and so on. And that's what she's talking about. I also -- always puzzled by the erotic thing -- she's erotic. And I see it as maybe the second meaning of erotic in the sense that she's expressing feelings 38:00-- but I was trying to think, when she came to this country and she started writing and stuff -- and I think some of the things were translated from Russian -- we don't know exactly the source of which poems -- she was a pretty young age. She's in her twenties and stuff. Yeah, she has sexual feelings, so on. We all do, except a few. (laughs) And she's expressing this. And she's deviating from Yiddish poetry in that she's not giving the references to Judaism and not giving the references to the religion and so on. But these are perfectly logical things to express for somebody who's bold enough and strong enough to go against convention and express them. So, I've never read her poems and been sexually turned on myself, which is the first definition of eroticism. But maybe the 39:00second definition sort of applies because there's an erotic basis to the feelings of romantic attachment and so on. But I always felt a little troubled by that. It doesn't quite hit the nail on the head for me.

CW:Yeah.

DD:I don't think anybody's ever read them and then got sexually excited. It's deeper than that. She's talking about, yeah, these feelings but she's talking about something that we all experience, that's universal, that's deep in our soul. And that kind of goes along with Faith Jones and so on and reading and thinking she's contemporary, what she's saying, in the '20s. But -- oh, the other thing I would say is I had referenced to uncle John reading the poems and 40:00especially what I would call "The Cradle Song." Even though I was pretty young -- and after her death, this was done, too, and we had gatherings -- the rhythm, which you're not getting in the English. When they read "The Cradle Song," it was like this thing is rocking. So, I think somewhere along the line, I read that people recognized that she had -- that this was one of her talents, that she really had a beautiful rhythm to her poetry and so on, which, of course, is not as apparent in the translations. And then, comparing different translations, you see that there's a subjectivity and it's not that easy to translate. But I think they did a pretty good job. It's allowing me to access her poetry.

CW:How much Yiddish did you have around when you were growing up?

DD:Very little. My father would speak some words. Like all cities -- and 41:00Harrisburg, less, probably eighty-five thousand or so or ninety thousand people, you go into the town to do your shopping. It's not that way anymore. You drive a hundred miles so that you --- I'll get something at this mall, I'll go to this mall. But there were people that he would speak Yiddish to, just in phrases. I don't know if he was completely fluent or read it and stuff. And there was a black man that -- a shvartslman and so on. And so, I was very aware of that, the ethnic background in that way, in a cultural sense. But everybody in the family still had Christmas trees, too. (laughs) Everybody. Another thing that was interesting is if we had a Thanksgiving dinner at aunt Esther's house -- Abe at that time was giving legal advice to poor people and stuff because he was 42:00blackballed, (laughs) basically. But people in the building and stuff, the poor people, they were coming through and, You get -- you have some food, too, and so on. So, that made a big impression on me. They were aware, the -- We don't shut the door. And we'd have (UNCLEAR). We were also thinking about the less fortunate among us and so on all the time. (laughs)

CW:I'm curious, when you mention the holidays and that the poetry would be read, is there more -- can you explain a little more about that? Like when would the poems be read, and would they be read in Yiddish or --

CW:Well, my aunt Esther read her poems to me or something she had just written that maybe she liked, and she would explain it. I never remember her reading one 43:00of grandma Celia's poems to me. But the exposure was basically uncle John. And it may have been before dinner or so on and the whole family was gathered there. And this was a big deal, to read some of her poems. And he was reading in Yiddish. Now, he was a brilliant man. He'd learn -- the story is, he'd learn Russian going back and forth from Brooklyn Polytech on the subway. As a young person, he was the favorite uncle. He was a great uncle because -- magic tricks -- I remember with Nicky, he was mentally, like, take a four-digit number, reverse the digits, subtract this, add this, do -- and it forced it to be a certain answer that wasn't apparent. But he could do these things in his head. He would look at patterns in wallpapers and, "I wonder how many patterns" -- but 44:00this reading the poems was uncle John's way of exposing the whole family to it, so that really sticks in my mind. And I can't think of anybody else that -- where I heard her poems read in Yiddish. That was it.

CW:So, for example, "The Cradle Song," would it be -- you said you would hear it in Yiddish and then someone would translate it for you, or --

DD:I don't even remember --

CW:Yeah.

DD:-- the translation. Now I'm seeing the translations. I don't remember a translation.

CW:Yeah.

DD:But it was pointed out that my father had dark hair like mine, but as a baby, blond like some of us are and so on. So, that's the golden head.

CW:And then, when did you start reading the poetry as an adult and why?

DD:I'm not sure exactly when I started reading, but it actually became more active probably in the last twenty years or so on. And then, especially going to the National Yiddish Book Center, these people saying this and that and you start seeing things on the internet, translations and so on. And I have a good friend. I met him in high school. He's in Tucson, Arizona, and I said -- I told him about the book and he was able to get that book. And he said, "I went through -- every day, I would read one poem" and so on. And now, even though he's in his seventies, he's still courting women, (laughs) trying to find somebody he can get along with. And he's having them read -- well, it was -- actually, he taught school in the Philadelphia -- yeah, in the Philadelphia -- in the Norristown area. And just last week, he has a female friend that was a 46:00fellow teacher and he sent her some of the poems and she's just wild about them. So, all these things draw you in, of course. And of course, it's your grandmother. But in terms of people translating those poems and explaining those poems and so on as a kid, I can't remember much of it, that -- uncle John reading it and people knew she was a poet. The paintings were more prominent and, of course, you could visualize these. And I always thought -- I'm not sure when she started painting. Some people said when she was sixty. Well, she died at sixty-six, and maybe that's not true. Maybe it was much earlier. But we do know that she stopped writing poetry after World War II. And we always thought she was crushed because Bobruysk with the half million Jews and stuff, they're all gone. That's the way I took it. Now, there may be other interpretations.

CW:Yeah. Then she switched to painting.

DD:But when I saw these paintings, I was like -- technically, she probably -- she did it for fifty years, it would probably be better technically. But you can't repress this woman's feelings. She's got feelings and she knows how to express it. And they're in the poems. In my parents' house -- and my sister, Celia, has the paintings that our family had, but all the sons and daughters had paintings. And one is of -- it was probably the New York Philharmonic. And I don't know if you ever seen this one, and the bows and the -- you can see the movement and so on. Another one, a self-portrait of my father. Another one is a watercolor of a dancer, so on. But really strong in terms of expression. You 48:00don't see that strength of expression in my mother's paintings, although she had an eye of an artist. She found that out when she started taking the art lessons and stuff. Now, the other thing I almost forgot to tell you, but it's really interesting. When my father and mother met -- and here's two people from two different (laughs) backgrounds, and what was that all about? But it may have been the last time I saw my mother, she may have -- tell me earlier. But she was on her way out and the whole family gathered, and she said early on in that relationship -- and I don't know if it was before I was born or she was pregnant at the time, so on -- that money was scarce and my father was working and traveling and stuff, and maybe it was the organizing already. And that's where 49:00he met her, in southern Indiana, which is close to Kentucky border. And she said, "I lived with grandma Celia. And my recollection is a six-month period, but that could have been six, eight months or so on." And this is fascinating to me because two different backgrounds, extremely different backgrounds, and my mother really was not completely comfortable with the family because eighth grade education, different background, and here, the people, this is one of the most intellectual families (laughs) you could ever meet. And my mother was kind of moody and tended to be negative and so on. And I'm thinking you have to take in consideration the upbringing and how people were raised and so on. This all 50:00fits in. And I said, "How did you get along with grandma?" "Fine. We got along well. She took me around and stuff, she was teaching me how to make matzah ball soup and the Jewish cooking and all this stuff. We had a good time together. We laughed," and so on. And this is another different picture of her. And this just really resonates strongly with me, that they lived together, that grandma Celia from czarist Russia, my mother from Americana and a hillbilly family, in a way -- my mother's family actually went to Kentucky. My sister's husband's doing genealogy. They were both in Kentucky in the 1760s or so, Revolutionary War times. Pretty tough. And I've also read by 1800, the Indians like Tecumseh and 51:00stuff tried to form a confederation that, We see what's happening; we're gonna stop 'em. By the 1800s, there was about two hundred people left in Kentucky 'cause they all went back east. And that area was not strictly Appalachian, but I think it's an Appalachian culture because they came from the Appalachians and went western. But they were in there. These were rugged people. My grandfather used to say, "You know where we got our land? We took it from the Indians." He realized that. And when I was young and went to Kentucky, they had segregated this and segregated water fountains, segregated parks and so on. And my grandfather kind of justified it at the time. And then, the twelve-hour, fifteen-hour ride home and so on, my father and I would discuss this and so on. But later in life, my grandfather, he kind of shocked other people in that area. 52:00He said, "We did the blacks wrong. We did 'em wrong." And so, it's funny how these -- certain things just stick in your mind and are meaningful.

CW:Yeah. Is there one of your grandmother's poems that sticks in your mind as meaningful?

DD:I think they all are. One I really like is, "I Write Poems." It's a gentler poem. I like 'em all. I mean, this one, "To the Young Poet," like, wow. And so on. And her description, "In Sullivan County," descriptions of nature. But this: "I write poems, they fall on my lips like snowflakes. This is how you banish harsh, cutting words." And then, last one is, "I'm okay. I sing and I sing my 53:00poems." But they all have an impact. Like my friend, he's reading one a day and he's thinking about it all day long. And I think the depth of those poems is kind of endless. This is not like rap music where it's -- you hear it, okay, it's done. It has no impact. No, these things really can hit people very deeply.

CW:I have a couple other things I want to ask you, but do you want to look at your notes and see if there's anything --

DD:Okay. Oh, it's another thing my mother told me and was at this period where she lived with my grandmother. There was another woman interested in my father at the time, and she was sending letters, okay? And my mother told me that 54:00grandma Celia was tearing 'em up. She didn't let my -- so, she must have liked my mother for some reason, and she was actually playing a role in the selection process here. (laughs) That I didn't mention. (pauses) Another thing is when -- one thing I remember is, as a kid, is when grandma Celia was dying, my father was traveling. He did a lot of traveling in his work anyway. He was always tired. But he was up there every weekend and so on. And so, he had great love for her. And then, Esther told me at some point that when she visited her mother, my grandmother Celia -- and she was really toward the end and so on. And 55:00she was showing sadness, and I don't know if she was crying or showing sadness -- and this also sticks in my mind -- grandma Celia said, "Don't cry for me. I have more life in my little finger than all my kids put together." (laughs)

CW:Do you remember when she passed away?

DD:Well, I remember the period and stuff. I did not go to the funeral on that. But yeah, it affected me very deeply and I knew that -- I don't know if I was processing what all that meant at that age, eight and into nine and so on. But very aware that this was a huge event with my father traveling there and so on, all the time. And very aware that she wasn't doing well.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

DD:It's a lot. I think the main points are -- is this woman really had something. My aunt Esther's poems were much more intellectual than hers. And 56:00hers are like -- I always think from the -- I think of Miró. And he said, "I have my feet planted in the earth." I think grandma Celia, the same. Could have been from a peasant with the ability to write poems and stuff. And I noticed that dichotomy between the approach of poetry between my aunt Esther and stuff. I don't know that my aunt Esther's poems will ever be published, but she was quite prolific. And poems on love, poems on nature, poems on politics. There is a poem in here of my aunt Esther's I can read to you that -- and these are grandma's serious poems that I copied. And some of them, I can't find on the internet anymore, so I'm not sure where I got them. That's "The Cradle Song."

CW:I'd love it if you could read it.

DD:I'll try, but I don't have my reading glasses.

CW:Do you want me to get them, or do (UNCLEAR)

DD:I think I can see it.

CW:Okay.

DD:This is "The Cradle Song." This is one translation. "My eyes rest on your golden hair. Sleep, my golden-headed boy, my only joy. A tiny gold key will close your little eyes as my only joy sleeps in his cradle. Your golden head rests on a tiny white pillow in a cradle so soft. My golden boy sleeps. One small movement, the cradle I'll rock. Sleep, golden child, my only joy." And I don't know if you -- this one is not in the book, but I found it on the internet sometime: "I Will Run Away." You ever hear --

CW:Mm, no.

DD:-- of that one?

CW:I don't know that one.

DD:This is about motherhood, too. "I will run away from all of you to my little 58:00boy. I will leave all of you, you with your thirsty hot looks, you with your cold stares. I will leave the faces of friends, the faces of enemies, and go to his bright face." Talking about her child. "I will rock him gently, I will cover him softly, I will waken him by brushing his face with kisses. Mama, mama. I'm your mama." Can't read my own writing. Oh. "You alone can have me. In the quiet circle of darkness beside my child's cradle, I will be safe from all of you." And here's "The Circus Dancer," which is a different translation than the Faith Jones, et cetera. And "My Ship," is that in the book?

CW:I don't remember.

DD:"My Ship"? This one I really like. Should I read it?

CW:Yeah, it's great.

DD:"My ship has weathered many storms, so you, little boy, cannot break my heart. Don't be surprised the next time we meet, the day after you tell me you no longer love me, to see me reborn and smiling. My ship will flounder all night on a crest of high waves like a sick child whine, bent to one side like a crone. But by morning, she will straighten herself up and glide away on a surface of blue."

CW:Wow.

DD:You hadn't heard that one?

CW:No.

DD:Here's another translation of "The Cradle Song." This is one about the 60:00suicidal thoughts. (laughs) I don't know if you want me to read this.

CW:Sure.

DD:"Standing at the window with head" -- "At the Window," it's called. "Standing at the window with head bent, from the fifth floor of a tenement, I become pensive. A memory rose and the sidewalk seemed so close, so close. The gentle grey eyes of the sidewalk know me -- or knew me -- and like a warm bed, like dear arms, she drew me. The sidewalk was so close, so close. And the memory of my warm childhood bed arose. I suddenly craved sleep like one possessed. Do I dare hope this day will bring me rest? I bend still further, further, further into my rest, so yearned for. Like a bird, I flew." Now, this has another 61:00resonance because my aunt Evie committed suicide by jumping out a window, yeah.

CW:Wow.

DD:She was really heartbroken by the divorce from her husband. And I know Elizabeth and so on really tried to spend time with her and so on and it was very difficult. I remember Nicky saying, "She was just determined to kill herself or determined to die." See what else is here. And -- oh, that's some other poet. And this is one from my aunt Esther and one that she read to me. Now, I don't know if she'd just written it but -- and we talked about it. It's 62:00called "To Do." "He had no horoscopes, no book of dreams to guide him, heard no catechism, read no commentary where ancient questions called and time worn answers. He only knew to do. Was told that history was a random accident, uncertain incident. Each act was new. He suffers now in shocked discovery, the stranglehold of consequence."

CW:Wow.

DD:Might be pretty much -- so, you hadn't heard the "At the Window" and so on? See, I'm not --

CW:I read them a long time ago, so I --

DD:Yeah, where were they -- there's other translations, there's some other people -- and they're a little hard to find in the internet now.

CW:Right.

DD:But this is ten years, fifteen years ago, I started collecting these and stuff. And then, the book has helped a lot, thanks to Faith Jones. Oh, another thing is there was a woman in Harrisburg, Sue Leviton, and she was in a klezmer band. And I understand that some of the lyrics are used in the klezmer bands, too. So, she went to what she called a KlezKamp and that was in New York City and Faith Jones was running it. And they had -- they dealt with my grandmother. I think there were wax cylinders where you can hear my grandmother actually reciting her poetry. And there's one on the internet and it just kind of has a level voice in that one. Anyway, she copied this and gave me the tape so I could hear it. And it just brought tears to my eyes hearing my grandmother speak. But the emotion, it's not like the one on the internet. It was rising and the voice 64:00was rising and she's strongly belting -- in other words, the whole thing was tied up with her feelings. That's why I look at her poem-- they're all about her feelings and so on and what she experienced and that she's gonna tell you. (laughs) And it sounds very personal, but it's also very universal.

CW:And do you think she has an audience today and should she?

DD:She should, yeah. (laughs) Well, she does among the -- in the National Yiddish Book Center and the people who are preserving the Yiddish and stuff. But the word spreads. I don't know. In my case, there's been people that I've introduced that poetry to, and I had mentioned my friend, Jim Fechen is his name. And he named his daughter Celia, his first daughter. (pauses) And so, then 65:00he -- the people that he cares about, he's like, "Read this." And this is very recent: this woman he worked with, when they taught school, and he's very friendly with her and stuff. And he sent her poems and she said, "I got to get the book. I got to read this." But she was very enthusiastic. So, it's spreading. I don't know if it's ever gonna be on the radio with --- (laughs) on NPR and stuff. But yeah, people that have sensitivity and stuff, everybody's moved. And the reaction I got at the craft shows by these people seeing my name, like, This is a great woman. And it's interesting. I see her as a grandmother and, of course, the polio and limping and so on. (laughs) And she really did 66:00something. She really contributed something to humanity.

CW:Yeah.

DD:That poem, "The Kiss," I gave you the paper but what this guy -- Unida was his email name. I don't know what his -- and he says that poem is in the hall of fame of classic Yiddish literature. And when I was doing the craft shows, there were people from Israel, there was a contingent and stuff. And there were people, yes, they knew that poem. "Yeah, we loved that poem, 'The Kiss.'" And they knew it in Hebrew. (laughs) So, you can't help but think -- and, plus, you're related to her and you had experiences with her as part of the family and stuff, that, boy, this is really special. (laughs)

CW:Well, is there anything else you want people to know about her?

DD:One thing is my daughter, my oldest daughter, Gabrielle, about four or five 67:00years old, she's drawing and painting. And you can't say where that came from, but I could show you -- I don't have a lot of her work. There was a divorce and the kids -- I haven't seen them for -- I haven't seen her for about -- it's almost thirty years now. But I was nurturing that art -- taking her to galleries. And I remember the Barnes, went around. We went to the Philadelphia -- where Museum of Art was at. And we went to the National Gallery, it was there and she was soaking it up, in my eyes, anyway. There was one room with a Seurat. And of course, Barnes had paintings that almost give you a new insight into these great painters. But there was a big Seurat. It was a huge canvas. Pointillism is not -- it's tedious and stuff. And it's very crowded there. So, 68:00she's sitting on the floor, cross-legged and staring at this for twenty minutes or so. I don't know if she -- and then, I take her to the National Gallery of Art and there was a Monet there, a room with some Monet and stuff. As a young kid, she was saying, "My room. This is my room." So, where do these things come from? But very skilled. By the time she's twelve, thirteen, she's doing oils and so on and fine art and stuff. And even though I was separated from her, they have what they call Golden Keys Awards, and this is trying to pick out from the different schools in the area. And I went and looked at these paintings and, you know, I wasn't aware of her progression but there were some there that were expressionistic. There was one of a nude dancer and it was well-rendered and -- yeah, she's working on the human form. Reminded me of Degas. And so, there's 69:00that mystical connection and so on that we'll never quite understand. And I'm doing this music now, intensely for the last ten years and giving guitar lessons and so on. And even though I don't see my children, I have a lot of children as students and I'm always thinking, Well, they're my children in a sense. But I always think -- in the back of my mind, I always think my inspiration for taking this chance -- I'm living on the edge financially and so on. And like I mentioned before, I'm not -- practicality is not my strength. I always think, Grandma Celia's my inspiration for doing this. And some people say, You're crazy. (laughs) But actually, I'm getting somewhere. I am playing in the area and sometimes I have students that are maybe forty years old, Oh, my mind's too 70:00old to learn. No it isn't. The mind's a miraculous organ. You can never wear it out like a muscle gets tired and stuff. You can't wear out your mind. So, I don't know if it's keeping me young, but age -- that's the other thing about time and stuff, because myself and my grandmother are separated by time. So, all these holes and stuff, all this mystery that -- what was her life like and what was this like and so on? Never know, but the reason is because time doesn't overlap. And I hope my daughters and stuff learn to appreciate her. And my sense is that -- is the memory of that side of the family is suppressed in the current 71:00conditions and stuff. 'Cause I don't have contact, I haven't had much influence as they were growing up. Gabrielle was about nine years old when the divorce happened and Sarah was around four and so on. So, this has gotten turned into I was selfish, I was this, I didn't love 'em, all these things. But that's not really true. I think about 'em every day and the psychological turmoil that it caused was painful and went on for decades and it'll probably never really leave, although I handle it better than I did initially. I was pretty much a basket case, yeah. But there you see continuity, in a way. Here's my daughter, really getting into art. She loved horses. She still does. She gives lessons in 72:00dressage now and she has a job, I think it's commercial art in a marketing firm. And I don't know if she's keeping the fine arts going, but I wish she -- I hope she is. (laughs) But you see this continuity. You're separated by time and stuff but these things keep -- there's a poem my grandmother Celia wrote about the flowers, the -- I think it was the poppies that are growing and so on -- come from. Another thing about life and people -- are some people are sensitive and tapped into these things and I certainly am. Considered a very sensitive person and maybe a fine cloth, like my grandmother said. And it creates color in my world, and music creates color. And the paintings, the poetry and stuff. And I'm looking at the world in a different way. There's miracles everywhere. I can't make a tree, I can't make this or that and so on. But there's a lot of people 73:00that -- and it's not their fault in a lot of ways. It's exposure and so on. But they -- What do you like? I like football. I like my guns. I like this and stuff. And you hope to uplift these people. My father's union was -- the slogan was, "We want bread but we want roses, too." And I know they did a lot of -- they thought it was important to educate people. And I've heard people say, I was working in a shop, sewing. Sewing was a big industry in this area. And the union came in and organized and I got involved in that in my life. Then, at a certain point, I'm going to Europe and I'm interacting with workers in Europe and so on and it just changed my life, and so on. So, that potential was there. In fact, I was discussing this with, actually, my guitar teacher and my friend 74:00Jim Fechen and stuff. And he's saying this -- in the early 1900s and late 1800s, common people and stuff knew so much more about the arts. And they were tapped in. And I think it's the commercialization of the arts and stuff have taken a big toll. I read "Music Is My Mistress," Duke Ellington, and he's positive about everything. When he gets to commercial art, it's the only thing negative in that book. It's the lowest common denominator. I was discussing this with my guitar teacher that the Grammys -- he said -- and he's a musical genius. He's teaching on twenty-five different instruments and he played classical guitar for the governor's mansion. And every style of music you can think of: bluegrass, swing, all these things. But his comment was -- so, I respect his opinions. And his comment was, "Music's at a very primitive level now," in terms of the commercial 75:00music. And what I'm getting into is the George Gershwin, the Jerome Kern and stuff which forms the kind of the classic basis of the jazz repertoire. And they're so deep, you can work with these tunes and re-harmonize and contemporize and so on with the voicing and so on. And it's just a shame that people aren't enjoying that now. At a certain time, Hershey Park here, which people used to come and -- Sundays, the bands would come in, the blankets, the picnics, and stuff -- I wish I could experience it. So, this stuff, we're kind of creating a grey world here and stuff. And now you get into the politics and the alienation. Why do we have all these shootings? Why do we have the opioid -- why do we have this? From the background of my family, they would say, This is related to 76:00economic conditions and the way these things are set up and -- 'cause I think -- one thing I saw, my father took over managership in Scranton. And it wasn't a plum managership. And Scranton was a depressed area. And it had coal, it had the United Mineworkers and so on. And there was a friend of my father, he got very friendly with this guy. His name was Gabriel Socha. This is where my first daughter Gabrielle's name -- come from. And he didn't drive. And I taught school for a year in between college and graduate school. And I drove him, and we organized one summer, and we were handing out leaflets and so on. And we had discussions and we would laugh and things. And he gave me the labor history of that whole area, from the Wobblies and this and that. But my father had the 77:00first strike in that area for like, thirty years. So, it was Scranton Wiping Cloth. And what I saw was there are people -- I also read a book, "There Comes A Time" was the title, that people get involved in a struggle and some of them really wake up and they start putting all this stuff together. And it's a beautiful thing to see from my perspective. I know a lot of my conservative friends would disagree. You're disabling these people (laughs) because you're helping them, the individuality -- no. My father was really tireless in terms of -- incorruptible, 'cause he's doing negotiations and so on. And the limits of the negotiation, what he could ask, was coming from Palmer Weber. Now Palmer Weber had been married to aunt -- why am I -- how could I forget her name? It'll 78:00come to me. The oldest aunt. But he was blackballed for political activity. Where's he wind up? On Wall Street. Now I know, 'cause I'm reading people like Michael Hudson and stuff who are heterodox economists and they're telling you that Adam Smith saw -- and the way that it's interpreted by the laissez-faire capitalists, it's upside down. It's really upside down and so on. But one of the things he did, I don't know how he did it, but this guy -- my father was tireless when it came to these issues. He actually set up a pharmacy in his union office where his members could get drugs at cost. Plus, they had the physicals and so on and the free eyeglasses and that. I don't know how he did that. But I met Palmer Weber a few times and he was brilliant, but he was also 79:00cursing in the elev-- this is Wall Street. He's cursing and he's telling my father -- he can quote how much paper is used per capita, how much -- people have a little bit in the stock market, eighty percent is the top, but basically he was telling my father the revolution is not coming tomorrow. But I think my father, he would get an idea of the industry and stuff and set limits on how much he could ask for without breaking union. Another thing I saw with my father that was very interesting to me is he had his principles. And I know he started out as a real radical. I know what he did in the University of Wisconsin and stuff, hanging the banners up and stuff against imperialism and all this stuff. (laughs) But when it came to consideration of the conditions of the working 80:00class, there's been plenty of times when people have had principles and they've committed to the extent where the aftermath is everybody lost their jobs. Yeah, like, I didn't bend my prin-- he would tamper and bend his principles because it was more -- with consideration is, I want these people to have work. And I want them to have jobs and stuff. My principles are not more important than their well-being. And to me, that was a great lesson. Another great lesson to me was my grandfather, Arlie Bishop, in Kentucky. And he had problems with his back. These people didn't see doctors that much, but one doctor said, "Your spine's bent. There's nothing we can do" and stuff. And he's in his seventies or eighties and he's sleeping on the floor because he can't -- and it's hurting him. Then he goes to see another doctor and this doctor says, in my 81:00grandfather's words -- his Scotch-Irish dialect was very colorful. You'd hear things like -- I wish I could remember more of the phrases. "Well, he doesn't have one eye and half sense." And this went on all the time, this colorful language and stuff. But one thing my grandfather said about this is -- so, he sees another doctor, who says, "Yeah, we can do something about this," and it did help him immensely. He said, "I don't care how much you know about a subject. If you're not honest, you're not good at it." That honesty and your relationship with other people, trying to help them and stuff is very important, in his view, whether you're any good at this or not. Well, that's a great lesson. (laughter)

CW:Absolutely. Well, I want to wrap it here, I think, the recorded part. And 82:00just thank you so much for taking the time and sharing all these stories with us.

DD:My pleasure. It's really -- I've gotten a lot out of this because it's helped me think and process and so on. And as long as I live, I'll be doing that. (laughs)

CW:Yes, well, it was --

DD:And so, thank you for your efforts in coming and doing this, and archiving.

CW:Absolutely, well --

DD:Really great thing.

CW:-- thanks from the Yiddish Book Center, too.

[END OF INTERVIEW]