PAUL MINTUS ORAL HISTORY

NINA PICK:This is Nina Pick, and today's date is August 6th, 2018. I'm here in Lenox, Massachusetts, with Paul Mintus, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Paul, do I have your permission to record this interview?

PAUL MINTUS:Yes, you do.

NP:Thank you. So, Paul -- so we'll start out with a couple questions about your background and childhood. Can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

PM:I mean, my mother came from a long line of rabbis. And from an early age she 1:00spoke Yiddish. But she spoke perfect English also. My father in a sense had no culture. And, that's it. I can expand on it.

NP:And --

PM:I have difficulty talking sometimes. But I'll do my best.

NP:-- and where did your father and your mother's families come from?

PM:My father we don't know. My mother came from East-- her family came from Eastern Europe. And my grandmother I guess came over when she was twenty. Um -- yeah.

NP:Can you tell me a bit about their background in Europe, what country were they from, anything you know about their history?

PM:Well, I don't know very much. I just know it was Poland and Russia.

NP:And how did your parents end up coming to the Bronx, where you grew up?

PM:I guess it was cheap housing. They didn't have that much money. But we were, like, outcasts in the Bronx. There was a synagogue across the street, and my mother -- my parents weren't religious. And they insisted that I wear regular clothing while everybody was dressed up. And I always felt very bad about that. And I was only in the synagogue once. Um --

NP:So your family wasn't religious?

PM:No. But my mother was -- what's the word -- I can't think of it now -- 3:00Yiddish -- Yiddishkayt?

NP:Um-hm. So she --

PM:She was --

NP:-- you said she spoke Yiddish and English.

PM:Right.

NP:Um-hm. And was she a native Yiddish speaker, or she learned it?

PM:She learned it. Um -- yeah. Maybe we'll come back to it.

NP:So would you say that though your family wasn't religious, would you describe your family as Jewish?

PM:Very, very much so.

NP:In what ways?

PM:Well, they identified with our history and felt very strong about being Jewish. Even my father did, to a certain extent. But my mother especially. I 4:00felt I grew up to a certain extent in a Jewish household.

NP:And what do you remember about that household? For example, what were -- were there important holidays or events during the year for your family?

PM:Huh? Well, the first thing I remember (laughs) is they bought me a little Christmas tree during Christmas so I wouldn't feel like I was outside of the mainstream, I guess. I remember we celebrated Hanukkah. But the really very, very religious holidays we didn't because it was too religious for them. But my mother wanted to create some sort of feeling of the holidays and of being Jewish.

NP:Were there particular foods that you remember from your childhood?

PM:Latkes, matzah balls -- matzah ball soup, rather -- you're talking about Jewish foods? Yeah. Those are two foods I remember. How 'bout matzah, with lots of butter on it.

NP:And who made these foods in your family?

PM:My mother. And I think my grandmother, at one point.

NP:And did your family do anything special for Shabbos?

PM:No.

NP:So in addition to Yiddish and English, were there other languages that were spoken in your home?

PM:No.

NP:And your mother's love of Yiddish, what did that look like during your 6:00childhood, in your home life or your family life?

PM:Well, I think -- I'm not sure, but for me it was a little strange. My mother sent me to learn Yiddish in a school setting, but I really didn't take to it. And I know -- my mother, whenever she met anybody who spoke Yiddish, even on the subway, she'd start a conversation. She was very eager to have that contact. Um, where were we?

NP:So she would strike up conversations on the subway -- do you remember what she would talk about?

PM:No, she told me she did it. I didn't -- I wasn't there.

NP:You didn't see it happen.

PM:But any opportunity she had she would do that.

NP:And your experiences at the Yiddish school -- you said you didn't really take to it. What was your experience like?

PM:Well, I just remember not liking it and can't remember much more than that.

NP:Do you remember, for example, some of the activities there or books you read, what you learned in the classes?

PM:There's a book -- I don't know if my mother gave it to me or it was in the class. Who is the most famous -- name --

NP:Like Sholem Aleichem?

PM:Sholem -- yes, Sholem Aleichem. So I remember that. I can't remember much right now, but I remember I read that when I was twelve. And I really liked 8:00that. In the class we had a book which we used, and it was Yiddish there, and I was to learn that. But I blanked that out. There must be a reason.

NP:And in addition to sending you to the Yiddish school, did your mother bring Yiddish into the home or try to teach you in other ways?

PM:She just -- I just learned words here and there. So she didn't really teach me and didn't bring it into the home that much.

NP:Are there any particular words that you remember that you'd like to share?

PM:I can't believe I remember this. "Oy vey," which everybody knows. "Sha, shtil 9:00[Shush, quiet]." Um -- I'll remember them, and we'll come back to it.

NP:Sure. And did you ever have the experience of going to Yiddish theater?

PM:No, I knew it existed. It was the old-time, almost vaudeville type, back in the '50s, but I never went there.

NP:Was that something that your mother experienced?

PM:No, I don't think she went to that. She was more of an intellectual.

NP:So in your recollection, what do you think was the significance of Yiddish for your mother? The way you describe it, it sounds like she really lit up.

PM:Good question. It's hard to know. I'm guessing. Brought her into another 10:00world. I know it was very important for her. And -- but she didn't really expose me to it that much. Um, what was the question?

NP:In your recollection, what was your mother's experience of Yiddish? What drew her to it? And you were saying it brought her to another world.

PM:Well, my grandmother spoke Yiddish. And what brought her to it I don't know. I think she spoke it sometimes. She was very -- but it was definitely a part of 11:00her life.

NP:Do you remember her being particularly drawn to certain aspects of Yiddish culture?

PM:Just literature.

NP:Literature.

PM:She'd read books in Yiddish. Of course she gave me -- I read them -- excuse me -- Sholem Aleichem -- in English. I'd like to give you more full answers, but I'm not doing too well.

NP:That's great. And you said in your questionnaire that she also sent you to a Jewish summer camp? Could you describe that a bit?

PM:Well, summer camps I remember. They were Jewish, but they were not religious 12:00at all. So there's nothing I can really talk about.

NP:What were those camps like?

PM:They were normal camps. But they had -- in the evenings they put on shows. But it was more about integration and relationship to black people.

NP:Do you remember anything particular from those camps in terms of activities or things you learned?

PM:(pause) Just the experience of being with black people. And feeling that 13:00we're all the same.

NP:Was there a place for Yiddish language and culture in those summer camps in terms of the other students?

PM:Not really. If I remember something I'll come back to it.

NP:Okay. And you've been speaking a bit about Yiddish culture, and so expanding that question a bit to Jewish culture in general, what aspects of Jewish culture were particularly important to you as a child?

PM:I guess it was important -- she had an identity. And she shared that with me. 14:00I'm phasing out a little bit. Repeat the question?

NP:What aspects of Jewish culture were particularly important to you as a child?

PM:Just the fact that she spoke Yiddish. And my father had no cultural background at all. So I really appreciated that my mother did. And so I grew up in a partially Jewish household.

NP:Okay. And looking back on your childhood, what values or practices do you think your parents were trying to teach you?

PM:In general, you mean? Always be honest. One thing I respect about my father, when he did his tax returns, he was a stickler for all the details and being honest about it. That impressed me quite a bit. And that was the other side of growing up. At one point he was a member, in the '30s, of the Communist Party. So the FBI would come to our door still when I was twelve. And there were all kinds of things where I felt I was being attacked. We were -- they burnt the Christmas tree in front of my window. I thought at one time the food was poisoned for -- I thought that for a minute, but the fact was that I thought 16:00there was always something. Um, what was the question again?

NP:Yeah, experiences you -- or the values and practices your parents were teaching you. And you were describing your father's honesty.

PM:Yeah.

NP:Yeah.

PM:My mother was a little more submissive, but the fact that she sent me to learn Yiddish was important. Even if I didn't like it.

NP:And your father's experiences as a Communist -- how else did you perceive that as a child?

PM:Yeah. Well, he was a public speaker and organizer. And I was very proud of him for that. He had another side to him, but -- he used to go on the backs of 17:00trucks and go to different neighborhoods and speak. And he finally left the Party because he just didn't agree with lots of things that were happening. But he was a significant person. But then he collapsed and became very depressed, and he stayed that way his whole life. Um -- yup.

NP:Do you have any other stories from childhood that you would like to share?

PM:I was a lonely child. I remember when I was in summer camp I'd look through the clouds, and I was sitting alone. And I just wanted to take -- the cloud 18:00would take me back to my mother. And I was very easily homesick. I remember one time I tried to run away. I packed a knapsack. I got a block away, and I came back. That was my big adventure. Um -- okay.

NP:Thank you. So we've been talking about your childhood and your background. I'd like to turn now to discuss later periods in your life and your later experiences. So fast-forwarding a bit: What was your relationship like with some 19:00of the social movements of your adulthood -- for example, the anti-war movement, the civil rights movement?

PM:Yeah. I guess I got involved when I was eighteen, must have been, early '60s? Yeah. What was the name of it? Well, it was the first organization for integrated schools. I was involved in that and went to demonstrations. And after that there was anti-Vietnam. Also at the same time as that was going on there was an anti-nuke movement, which I was also involved with. It gave me a sense of importance. Not importance, but meaning. So I guess I carried on for my teen 20:00years, when I -- I knew I had -- the meaning was there, but I didn't know where to place it, exactly. Oh, and I got very involved with the March on Washington of '63.

NP:You said you were eighteen when you first started becoming involved in social movement. Were you in college at the time?

PM:Yeah. But the college was way up in Vermont, and it was kind of separated from social movements.

NP:And what college was that?

PM:Goddard.

NP:So then after you finished college, what -- where did you go then?

PM:What did I do? Well, I got involved with Native Americans. And I lived there, 21:00and I stayed with them, did their ceremonies, and worked on a film. And that was very significant. Maybe the ceremonies that we had replaced Jewish ceremonies that I didn't have. Um -- I have more to say, but I can't remember right now.

NP:Could you tell me a bit more about the documentary that you worked on there?

PM:Can't right now.

NP:And is there something -- anything more you'd like to say about the ceremonies you participated in?

PM:Yeah. I remember one -- it was like -- it was called a (UNCLEAR) ceremony, where Leonard Crow Dog was a medicine man. And he wrapped himself in a blanket, and he was tied all up; he was tied up, tied up. And it was like a modern-day encounter group. Each person would say what's on their mind, what they were feeling. And they'd go around the room -- or the room was -- went around the room and had a packed-dirt floor and cardboard for insulation and a potbelly stove in the middle. That give you an idea of what the room was like. And I thought it was very fascinating that they'd do something that was 150 years old 23:00but was the same as we did right then and there. And then there was a sweat lodge ceremony. I remember -- I think they were trying to see how much I could take. They kept adding stones in the middle of it. And I got so hot I just put my head to the floor, tried to find some air to breathe. But I got through it. Then there was a ceremony -- I call him Leonard. We referred to him as Leonard all the time -- where he fasted four days and four nights in an underground chamber. That was quite something. Then the other thing that was going on -- white ranchers, who lived on the fringes of the reservation, would terrorize the 24:00Indians. And they would have shotguns hanging on the back of their pickup trucks, but Indians were order-- had to hide their guns. And I remember once there was an Indian named Norman Little Brave. He was shot and then dragged on to his house -- up to his house. And the white man was acquitted. So there were things like that. Then -- oh, okay.

NP:Yeah, go on, if you'd like.

PM:We'll get back to -- (laughs) get back to that. So far that's it.

NP:And during this time, as you grew into adulthood, did your sense of Jewish 25:00identity shift as you lived these various experiences?

PM:I don't think so.

NP:And currently how would you describe your relationship to Jewish identity?

PM:I'm here, so really -- I look for -- on Friday they have a ceremony which they only have but once in a while, and I like to try to get to that. And I think I feel very strongly Jewish. Part of it has to do with what happened during World War II. And that has a great effect on me. And -- but I feel very 26:00Jewish, even though I don't follow -- I mean, I could be -- feel that way and still be sequestered in this tiny space. It's sort of like a prison here.

NP:Could you tell me a bit more about how World War II shaped your sense of Jewishness for yourself?

PM:The fact that six million Jews were murdered made me want to be at least one of the surviving Jews. (coughs) That's how I felt more strongly Jewish in that sense.

NP:And were you aware of the Holocaust as it was happening?

PM:No. I remember one thing. Maybe it was the early '50s that I -- my parents told me about it. I was in public school, which was mostly Jewish. But the kids there thought it was a joke. The parents really never talked about it, never introduced them to it. So I kind of felt I stuck out, and I didn't want to talk about it because they were trivializing the whole experience. I remember that very clearly.

NP:You've described Yiddish as being very much the language of your mother and her heritage. And how has your relationship personally to Yiddish evolved over your lifetime?

PM:Well, there was nothing to support it, even after I left home. And it was minimal when I did live at home. 'Cause my mother did not share it with me. She would teach me individual words, but she held back, for some reason. Oh, what 29:00was the question again?

NP:Yeah, how has your relationship personally to Yiddish evolved over your lifetime? And you said there was nothing to support it.

PM:So it didn't evolve.

NP:And currently how do you -- what is the role of Yiddish? How do you hold it in your current life?

PM:I have mixed feeling. There's a small part of me that doesn't want to be identified as Jewish.

NP:What is the role of Yiddish for you personally now in this moment of your life (UNCLEAR)?

PM:It's not in my life at all. Unfortunately. I think the part of me that rejects the whole thing, I think underneath, in my subconscious, it plays a big 30:00part. I don't know how much it plays, but it's there. I'd like to explore that sometime, because I think it would be like a breakthrough, breakthrough for me.

NP:So to clarify, just to make sure I understood that, so you're saying what's in your unconscious is the Jewishness?

PM:Yes. Right.

NP:Um-hm.

PM:Just thinking of Peter, who you know. For him it was -- wasn't there either, except for his mother, perhaps. And that was -- you know that (UNCLEAR) -- that thing.

NP:Would there be anything about Jewishness or Yiddish in particular or your own identity as a Jewish person that you would want to transmit to younger generations?

PM:Something about Yiddish?

NP:Or your own -- of your own Jewish identity?

PM:That it's very, very important to know your roots. That you can't escape it. And the most important thing is to embrace it. That's what I'd transmit.

NP:What do you perceive of the identity of younger generations of Jewish people and the ways in which they might be the same or differ from your own identity?

PM:Well, the majority are called hedonistic. They're not really -- they're interested in material things, but not in Judaism really. Then there are I guess what you call (laughs) "born-again" Jews, who have a world of their own. I'm not involved in that, but I respect it. And then there's you, who really embraces it 33:00in many different ways. And I respect that a lot. What was the question again?

NP:Yeah, the identity -- how might the identity of younger generations differ from your own?

PM:Well, all I can think of is the Holocaust. That had a big influence on me. And I don't think this generation -- it's a part of history, but it doesn't have the same emotional impact.

NP:Is there some particular part of Jewish culture -- a work of art or a song or 34:00a piece of literature -- that is important to you today?

PM:I guess the books I read when I was eleven or twelve, mostly Sholem Aleichem. I think that's important. I have not immersed myself in Jewish literature as an adult, and I regret that. I know I'm giving you short answers.

NP:What do you see as currently the place of Yiddish in our culture?

PM:It has to be preserved. Once it's wiped out, that part of being Jewish is wiped out. And it should be something that's preserved in many different ways. Very important.

NP:What do you imagine to be the future of Yiddish?

PM:Well, it should embrace other cultures and other religions but also feel a strong identity. Um -- I forget what I was gonna say.

NP:Yeah, you were imagining the future of Yiddish, saying it --

PM:Yeah.

NP:-- should embrace other cultures --

PM:Right. And by keeping your own identity and still embracing or trying to embrace other languages and cultures, you grow. That's it.

NP:If you had a word of advice for future generations, what would it be?

PM:Know your history. Know your roots. And transform what is in your past, 37:00transform it. Part of my stroke is I forget things. I have to deal with that.

NP:And how would you like to see your own relationship with Jewishness evolve through these next phases of your life?

PM:(coughs) Somehow I think it was important for me to go to these Shabbat ceremonies, which don't happen too often here, but just doing that -- what was 38:00the question again?

NP:Would you like to see your own Jewish identity evolve in these next phases of your life?

PM:Yeah.

NP:If so, how?

PM:I'd like to feel more of my roots. And, uh -- yes.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

NP:So, in closing, are there any other topics that you would like to touch on that we haven't mentioned?

PM:How Judaism relates to present-day movements, what we learn from Judaism that would be relevant today, and I'm sure there are things that we can learn.

NP:Um-hm. Would you like to pose an answer to either of those questions, of how can Judaism relate to movements today? And what can we learn from Judaism?

PM:Well, the first one we don't know -- I don't know the answer to that. What can we learn from Judaism? Core values that are shared by religions throughout the world. We can join hands with them.

NP:Okay. Well, thank you so much.

PM:I'm sorry I didn't do better.

NP:No, that's great. Thank you so much. That's just right. So I want to thank you personally for sharing your stories and reflections with me and also a huge thank you on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center for participating in the Wexler Oral History Project.

PM:Well, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]