KYLIE MADHAV ORAL HISTORY

NINA PICK: This is Nina Pick and today, the day is October 17th, 2018.  I'm here in New York City with Kylie Madhav and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.  Kylie, do I have your permission to record this interview?

KYLIE MADHAV: Absolutely, yes.

NP:  Thank you.  Okay, so Kylie, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

KM:  Absolutely.  So, my family -- I guess, in a way, it's very typically American.  But I guess, like, in some ways, it's distinct, as well.  Most of my ancestors would have come from Africa at a point in time; I'm not fully 1:00sure.  Probably sometime in the eighteenth century, they would've been brought to the Western Hemisphere as slaves.  But then, a large portion of my family is also of Irish heritage.  These would have been the people who would've owned these African slaves, mostly in Virginia.  And then, also, one of my ancestors, at least -- well, not one but some of my ancestry on my maternal grandfather's side is Ashkenazi Jewish.  And according to 23andMe.com, for what it's worth, it seems like that strand of our family would have come from Belarus in Eastern Europe.  So, I don't necessarily have a specific place that they come from yet.  But that is, in a very condensed nutshell -- that is what my ethnic background is.

NP:  And do you have a sense of what life might have been like in the countries that your ancestors were from, starting with West Africa?

KM:  Yeah.  So, I think, starting with West Africa, it's a work in progress.  2:00I think a lot of that -- as, again, is very common, I would say, among most black people in this country, a lot of that history was intentionally erased and has been, perhaps, neglected with time.  So, I actually don't know where in West Africa they've come from, but I am actively investigating that.  But I imagine -- I don't know.  I guess I don't want to make assumptions about what the economic conditions would have been like in the areas of West Africa that they would have come from, 'cause I guess they could have been quite varied.  But I hope to find out soon.  I do know specifically that the Irish part of my family came from this place called County Tyrone in what is now Northern Ireland.  And this would have been in the late 1700s, so I imagine this was when Ireland was still, I guess, struggling economically to a certain extent.  And then, the Ashkenazi Jewish part of my family would have also come over at least in the 1800s.  So, from what I've learned from a lot of different 3:00documentaries about the pogroms in Russia and Belarussia -- that they would have probably been the victim of some sort of anti-Semitic zeal in their countries of origin, which would have encouraged them to immigrate to the United States in the 1800s.  This is long before the Second World War.  So, I imagine it would have had something to do with the treatment of Jewish people in Eastern Europe in that period.

NP:  And how did you learn about your Jewish ancestry?  Were these common stories in your family, or this was based on research that you did later?

KM:  Yeah, so, it was actually -- this is something I've been aware of at least since the seventh grade.  And I distinctly remember thinking it was a novel thing.  So, I guess I didn't grow up hearing this from birth.  But I do remember around eleven or twelve, my mother shared a story.  The person who I'm thinking of, his name is Ben Davis and he was actually an Ashkenazi Jewish 4:00person who was based in New York.  And apparently, according to the story, he had a family here in New York City that was Ashkenazi Jewish.  So, he was married within his community and had a full family with children, I presume.  But for some reason, he would have also been in Virginia at a certain point.  And he also had children with another one of my ancestors whose name is Christiana Jones.  And she would have been born, I believe, in 1858.  So, she would have been a child when slavery was eradicated in the United States.  And so, I don't as of yet know when they met or under what circumstances.  I do recall my family saying within the context of this same story that this particular ancestor -- my grandfather's sisters are still alive.  They're in 5:00their -- one's over a hundred and the rest are over ninety.  And they remember her, and they remember her vividly describing what it was like standing on an auction block and being poked and prodded as a child, right?  'Cause she would have been a child at this point.  And checked for teeth and everything, for health.  And I don't know if Ben Davis was involved in -- purchasing a human being.  Her.  I don't know.  But it sounded like that's what they were hinting at, 'cause I believe there was an age gap between them and it seems like they met when she was quite young, like prepubescent young.  So, yeah, but again, I don't know what would have drawn him to Virginia from New York City.  This was in Richmond, Virginia, where she was enslaved or she was born enslaved.  And somehow, he found his way down there and they eventually had many children together over the years.

NP:  And what was your sense of identity when you were growing up as a child?

KM:  Yeah, so I think that I've always been comfortable with the very umbrella term black, right?  So, black can encompass a great deal of multiracialness, of different experiences in terms of language, ethnicity, food, culture, all of that.  So, because it's such a kind of a catch-all term, I've never had an issue with it.  But I've also, at the same time, understood that part of my family is Ashkenazi Jewish and part of my family is Irish.  And I guess my relationship to Ashkenazi Judaism is that I've felt -- I didn't grow up -- I can't say that I grew up in an Ashkenazi kind of Jewish context.  We definitely never practiced Judaism.  This would have been my grandfather's grandfather who was Ben Davis.  So, I guess a bit removed.  But also, still, his story is still told quite frequently within family circles.  So, I guess I grew up with 7:00a sense of it and I guess a pride in it, as well, and also perhaps relating to it to a certain degree.  And I think I'm trying to grow closer to it.  But I don't think it's something -- I can't say that I grew up in that milieu.  I grew up probably in a staunchly black middle-class context, but with this kind of always in the forefront of my mind, of: This is my experience of blackness, being black and Jewish and partially Irish, as well.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

NP:  Can you describe the environment of your home growing up?

KM:  Absolutely.  So, the environment -- so, I'm from Chicago.  I was born and raised on the South Side of Chicago.  Born in 1987.  Grew up in Chicago until I left in 2005 to come to New York for undergrad.  And so, it was a single parent household.  It was my mother, myself, and my brother.  And I guess it was happy.  We had a very kind of, I guess, decidedly secular upbringing.  We weren't raised as adherents to any particular faith.  We were 8:00raised -- kind of keep an open mind.  And my mother was extremely accepting of whatever identities in terms of religion that we wanted to experiment with or learn more about, I should say.  So, yeah, I guess I grew up in a staunchly secular working-slash-middle class, single parent household on the South Side of Chicago, ironically in a neighborhood called Beverly, which is a bastion of Irish Catholicism in Chicago to this day.  In the South Side, which is mostly black, there's this neighborhood which is almost ninety percent, probably, Irish Catholic.  And so, that's always an interesting experience, as well, you know.  (laughs)

NP:  And what languages were spoken in your home?

KM:  Yeah.  So, we grew up speaking mostly English.  And then, French was also there.  And then, Spanish -- so, Chicago was obviously a very diverse 9:00city.  And so, Spanish was something that I kind of -- it wasn't spoken in our house, per se.  But I had a lot of friends whose parents or who themselves had come from Mexico.  So, I kind of just grew up speaking Spanish, but not as my first language.  It was just kind of -- it became something that I'm fully fluent in today.  And that was kind of outside the home.  But it was primarily English and then French because my mother was very adamant that we be at least bilingual, preferably trilingual or quadrilingual.

NP:  And it sounds like somewhere a couple generations back, there was a Yiddish speaker.

KM:  Yes, there would have been a Yiddish speaker in my family.  So, it's funny, there's actually a friend of mine in Queens.  And she would probably be in her late forties now.  She's a bit of the generation prior to mine, and it's actually via her that I've gotten to know Yiddish a bit more.  I cannot profess to speak it fluently, but I know enough to say "l'shanah tovah [Hebrew: happy new year]" and greetings of that nature.  But they would have been a Yiddish 10:00speaker.  And that's actually -- so, me as a linguist, I studied linguistics at NYU.  That was my discipline.  And so, for me, it feels like a bit of a tragedy that that's not been maintained in my family.  But definitely, there is a Yiddish connection and in my not-too-distant -- my genealogy.

NP:  Are there particular parts of the Yiddish language or Yiddish culture that speak to you most strongly?

KM:  So, I think probably what I can say that I know best is the food.  And, again, not that I grew up really eating it exclusively but my mother, to this day (UNCLEAR) -- myself, she would only cook with kosher salt.  Didn't keep kosher in terms of diet, dietary restrictions, but kosher salt was always there.  So, I think the food -- 'cause we're kind of a big food family.  We love to eat and experience new cuisines and so Yiddish cuisine and matzo ball soup and things of that nature and rye bread.  And my mother is from New 11:00York.  That's probably a very important thing to mention, is that my mother was actually born in Queens.  So, a lot of the kind of Yiddish kind of parts of -- that have become part of New York culture are part of her because she grew up here, as well, and then came to Chicago.  So, the cuisine was there and then maybe a sense of pragmatism, like my friend in Queens whose parents were Holocaust survivors. She always says, "You have this very -- a Yiddish sense of pragmatism and being straightforward."  I'm like, "Okay, so I'll take that as a compliment."  So, unbeknownst to me, apparently, perhaps that's something derived from one of my Yiddish ancestors.

NP:  And how do you recall -- how did you first learn about, say, the Holocaust?

KM:  Yeah, so the Holocaust was -- I think by the time that I was coming of age in the '90s and going to school, it was definitely an accepted part of the curriculum.  I went to a Catholic school until the fifth standard and then, 12:00post that, I went to public schools in Chicago, which were predominantly black or a variety of races.  But the Holocaust was always very much taught about.  So, I can't remember when I would have first learned about it.  But it's always been something that I was quite vividly aware of throughout my schooling.

NP:  And did your sense of Jewish identity influence the way that you received that education?

KM:  It did.  It did, actually.  It's funny, 'cause I do remember that once I kind of became aware of Ben Davis and kind of his links to -- his status as my ancestor, I did feel, perhaps, a stronger link than you might suspect.  And also, I read "The Diary of Anne Frank" when I was in the sixth grade and that had a great effect on me, as well.  And then, I think that's when I just intellectually became very curious about just kind of, I guess, Jewry in Europe, 13:00specifically, in Eastern Europe and then kind of Central and Western Europe, as well.  So, I just remember I did an intense amount of reading for someone who was in the sixth and seventh grade.  And I did identify with it.  I think also because there's probably a lot of overlap with the Shoah and slavery, right?  Different contexts and different periods, right?  But I think the taking away of one's humanity on purpose -- because I was already aware of my blackness, I think it wasn't much of a jump to feel empathy with a part of me that is Jewish as well.  And so, that's when there was -- essentially, ever since then, I've had this intense longing to become closer to my Jewish ancestry, to learn more about it, and to just learn more about where my family came from in Eastern Europe.

NP:  Could you tell me a bit more about your journey to learn more about your ancestry?

KM:  Yeah.  So, I guess it's a very multi-pronged thing: 23andMe is there.  14:00Me, my mother, and my brother have all done the DNA test.  And so, there's obviously the DNA record that says Jewish ancestry is there, Ashkenazi specifically.  Ancestry.com -- also I am a paying subscriber of Ancestry.com.  So, I've been able to kind of go pretty far back, actually, to at least the eighteenth century in most branches of my family.  And so, it's funny because with the ancestors who would have been slaves, we go back pretty far.  But so, Ben Davis is on my tree, which I can happily show on video, too.  He's on the tree, but then when I try to find his ancestors, I hit this wall because I don't know what year he was born, per se.  And I know he's in New York but his name isn't unique enough, perhaps, to generate a definitive hit.  And so, it's weird.  I'm able to go back on the Irish side, to Ireland, the British side to 15:00England.  The African side kind of -- still in the States, but at least back to the 1700s.  But the part that's Jewish, it kind of begins and ends with Ben Davis.  And so, it's this kind of painful thing.  I guess I wanted to learn -- so, I've been trying to find those records.  But then also, too -- so, I attended business school in Yale after graduating from NYU.  And so, always been around a lot of other Jewish students.  And at a certain point, I believe I joined the Jewish Students Union at NYU with the express intention of getting to know more.  And it's also been this thing -- and also, it could just be a me thing.  It could just be what my expectations are and perhaps a bit of ego.  Oh, flock to me and teach me, please teach me!  But I sought to learn more about just kind of Ashkenazi culture.  And I've found that I think, because of 16:00my phenotype, right -- in America, I am viewed as a black woman, right?  Americans don't have this nuance of, Oh, mixed race this and that.  That's all gone.  Now, if you have hair like mine and you're my color and have lips like mine, then you're black, which is fine, 'cause I identify as black.  But I think that's -- when I approach kind of Jewish spaces and say, Oh, this is also part of my history, too, and I'd like to learn more, and then, especially when I kind of bring in the slavery part being, like, This person might have been a slave owner.  I don't know if Ben Davis bought the woman that was also my ancestor.  But he may have.  And when I bring that up, then it's, like, Oh, that's nice.  And there's often this kind of very polite distancing that happens, or, Oh, we'll invite you for a seder dinner and -- never happens.  Things of that nature.  So, I've, with time, become very vocal, like, Hey, I'd love to experience Rosh Hashanah, Passover, which I never have, and be -- and 17:00the invitation has only been extended by my friend in Queens who I've mentioned who is in her forties.  She's the only person who taught me what a mezuzah is or things of that nature.  But otherwise, I have to say I've noticed this wall -- or even going to Borough Park in Brooklyn, right.  I think they're -- especially in more Hasidim spaces or Orthodox spaces, with my blackness, there's a huge disconnect.  It's, like, Oh, so you're a Jew.  But what does that mean, though?  Oh, well, it's part of my ancestry.  Yeah, so it's me trying to get closer.  But with Ancestry.com and with social spaces, I found I keep hitting this wall, almost like -- it's just this weird thing.  I'm hitting a wall with my Jewish ancestry but I'm tenacious, so I'm not going to let it stop me from anything.  But it's definitely there.

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NP:  What would you like to learn more about in terms of Jewish culture for 18:00your Jewish ancestry?

KM:  So, I think that's also a great question and also something that I probably don't have the best response to.  I think I just want to know -- possess knowledge about it.  I think I'd love to know, I guess, where my family came from in Eastern Europe.  I'm a big fan of narrative, so I'd love to know what their experiences perhaps were there.  Were they victimized by a pogrom in Belarussia?  And I just want to know.  I want to hear their voices somehow, even if it's not theirs.  I want to be able to put on a map -- and pass that down to future generations, right?  Like, Hey, I might not have all the answers but at least you have a space, a physical place that you can go to and look for answers or for some sense making.  So, I think I just want to know what -- yeah, I guess know what their narratives were.  I'd love a physical location.  And I guess part of me also wants to know kind of what brought this Ashkenazi 19:00Jewish man from New York to Virginia to have, apparently, a long-term relationship with this woman who was black and born enslaved.  I'd love to know that, too.  And also, I'd like to know -- I mean, it's probably kind of obvious 'cause he was already married, but I'd love to know kind of, Why'd you push us away?  Why were we hidden away?  Why have we never been invited to any sort of family function, which, again, is probably obvious.  Having two families -- I doubt his wife, if she knew about my ancestor, was gonna be like, Yeah, invite her over for this dinner.  I doubt that was ever gonna happen.  But still, we, as black people, I think, feel -- being cut off from history on one dimension of being black, right?  Slavery was about cutting you off from your history and your humanity, by definition.  So, I think to experience it, as well, from -- on the Jewish part of me is actually extremely painful.  And actually, even another nuance, the question that you asked about kind of what the search has 20:00been like for me -- I think I've also, obviously, come across a whole matrilineal inheritance thing.  So, when people say, Oh, well, you can't even be Jewish at all because this was from a male ancestor and this and that, that's also kind of hurtful, too, 'cause it's implicitly saying that I'm not a full human being because if I can't claim him as -- or if I can't claim Jewish ancestry because he was a male ancestor, then I'm missing an ancestor, then I'm not a fully human person.  And that's really hurtful, too.  But yeah, so it's -- I just want answers to a lot of questions.

NP:  And can you tell me a bit more about what the -- it sounds like you've had a lot of internal questions and internal motivation to go out and do the 21:00ancestry tests and do the research and learn about this and reach out to Jewish people in your communities.  Can you tell me a bit more about what that motivation is, or that desire?

KM:  (sighs) Kind of like where it comes from?  I think it's like I just have this maybe naïve sense of justice.  I think so much of what power in the United States has been is about erasure, like erasing the native inhabitants of this country, erasing African roots, erasing people's native languages who come from immigrant households.  So, I think, to me, that comes from a space of just wanting to buck this Americanness, this American tendency to be like, Just forget about all that.  Buy into this general, vague American identity.  And 22:00I'm like, No!  Again, I acutely feel like my ancestry was intentionally erased from Africa, because it was.  And so, I think the whole 23andMe, Ancestry.com, trying to get to know more about Judaism is --- it's like, in the same vein.  It's like, I refuse for this history to be erased anymore.  I just refuse.  I'm a little stubborn.  (laughs)

NP:  So, some people would say that there's a Yiddish revival, that there are young people who have classes and universities where they can go study --

KM:  Yes.

NP:  -- and other people say, Oh, Yiddish is just the language of our ancestors.

KM:  Yes.

NP:  And you know, so many Yiddish speakers were annihilated during the Holocaust.  In your perspective, what is the place of Yiddish in our current culture?

KM:  Well, on a factual basis, I actually did a research project at NYU about it.  I know it's actually increasing in terms of prevalence among Hasidim in 23:00some communities, like in Brooklyn and upstate New York.  So, I guess what do I view as the place of Yiddish?  I view it as kind of like this linguistic glue that binds perhaps people of Ashkenazi heritage in this country.  And then, my personal opinion of it, I think it's just beautiful.  I think anything that kind of goes against this American insistence on Anglophone uniqueness, I'm so happy.  I'm so happy that there are communities of people who are holding on to Yiddish, who are reviving it, who are learning how to read and write it.  I'm not there yet, but got some basics down.  But it makes me happy, actually.  I think that Yiddish is a part of many people's lives in this country.  And obviously, people who are of Ashkenazi heritage have contributed so much to America.  So, I think that Yiddish, in many ways, is one of the most American 24:00languages there is.  Yeah, so I'm happy it's making a comeback.

NP:  And I know you speak a number of different languages.

KM:  Yes.

NP:  French, Spanish, Haitian Creole --

KM:  Yes.

NP:  -- Hindi and Tamil?

KM:  Yes.

NP:  And could you describe what your relationship is like with Yiddish in relation to the other languages you have --

KM:  Yeah.

NP:  -- and that you have learned and --

KM:  Absolutely.  So, I think, for me, I have my four professional working languages.  So, at work every day, for example, I speak, every day, Spanish, English, French.  Kreyol once in a while, not as much.  But those are kind of my four core languages because they've been a part of me for the longest time.  So, I can think in them simultaneously and I feel equally as comfortable in any of them.  And then, Hindi and Tamil are newer because my husband is from India 25:00and I was living there for a while.  And so, learned those over there.  And then, Yiddish -- so, Yiddish isn't one of my working languages, per se, but I guess I experience Yiddish with an ancestral feeling.  I can't profess to speak it fluently.  I don't yet read and write it.  But I'm aware enough of it to know what the context of it is.  So, for me, it's an ancestral language.  It's something that I revere and respect, but I can't claim that I feel the same emotional connection to it like as I do in Spanish, right?  'Cause I've had emotional experience in Spanish.  I've dated people who only speak Spanish, right?  So, I have a much more emotional thing there, whereas Yiddish, it's like, I don't have the emotional side yet because I don't -- I'm not fluent in it.  But I have perhaps a deeper connection to it, at least intellectually, 26:00because I know that this was something that my ancestors would have spoken.  It's really, besides English, the only language I can say for certain that my ancestors would have spoken, right?  'Cause I don't know where in Africa that we come from, so I can't say what they would have spoken in Africa.  But I can say that someone would have spoken Yiddish.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

NP:  Can you mention a time that you felt particularly Jewish?

KM:  (laughs) A time when I felt particularly Jewish?  So, it's actually -- I think in history classes, maybe, sometimes the feeling is there, like, I think when I would learn about the Shoah or about certain experiences that are much less traumatic.  I guess when I'm with my friend in Queens, that's probably the best answer, I think.  When I'm with my friend in Queens, I guess I feel more Jewish, (laughs) I guess, because she's been so embracing.  And she's welcomed me in and she's taught me recipes and she took me to get a mezuzah once and 27:00things of that nature.  So, when I'm with her, it comes out.  And actually, ironically, in India, when I was living with my husband in India, I perhaps felt more Jewish, too, because -- I guess, for him, there's a very small Jewish population there.  So, to meet someone who's black and Jewish, he's like, "Oh, wow, that's really amazing!"  And so, he always has these questions about Judaism and Yiddish culture, which I, in many cases, was not qualified to answer.  So, I think with him -- just because he has that curiosity, which then kind of compels me to have it more in the forefront of my mind, I feel more Jewish.  So, I guess it's weird.  I guess I feel most Jewish in South India or in Queens when I'm with my friend or my husband because -- yeah, because there, it's more of a talked about thing, I guess.

NP:  And you mentioned already a bit about your education, studying at NYU --

KM:  Yes.

NP:  -- and Yale.  Could you tell me a bit more about your education and how 28:00it led you into your travels and also into your career as a LGBT advocate?

KM:  Yeah!  So, I think -- oh, God -- so I think my education -- so, my undergrad was in linguistics.  I also got an MSW from NYU and an MBA from Yale.  So, I think where that led me -- into my travels?  So, I guess probably the MBA was the one that led me most abroad.  I studied abroad in Singapore years ago, when I was still at Yale.  And it was actually because I was in Singapore that I ended up meeting my husband, because he has family in Malaysia.  So, it was this really happenstance encounter years ago.  But yeah, I guess the MBA was definitely -- Yale itself was a very global school, so it exposes you to a lot of people in its student body from different countries and then it gives you the opportunity to go abroad a lot.  So, I took full advantage.  Went to South Africa, Singapore, all that with Yale.  And then, I guess, how did that lead me to where I am now with the Center, I think?  Again, I've always had this deep sense of justice and, I think, kind of homophobia and 29:00transphobia are so ingrained in American culture.  Things are obviously getting better than they were five, ten years ago and beyond.  So, definitely progress is being made, but I think there's still a lot of room for progress.  So, I think I've just always had this sense of, again, kind of just standing up for what needs to be stood up for, right?  Like I grew up in communities, right, that were -- my neighborhood was Irish, but my schools were mostly black.  And there's homophobia in both places, right, and transphobia in both places, and a lot of lack of acceptance.  Even, for example, I remember when I would talk about my Jewish ancestry with black friends in Chicago, they would assume that I was trying to show off or that I was trying to say that, Oh, I'm not black.  And I'm, like, No, I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.  I think I can be proud to be black and also acknowledge that I'm having Jewish 30:00ancestry.  So, I think that -- experiencing these levels of discrimination and kind of being pushed away has always given me this deep sense of right and wrong.  And so, I think working for the LGBT Center -- I deeply believe in people being able to express their sexuality and gender as they choose.  And it's something that I've kind of stood up for since high school.  And so, being at the Center -- just kind of a continuation of that.  So, yeah, it's why I'm back in New York.  (laughs)

NP:  Could you tell me a bit about the work that you do there?

KM:  Yeah, so here at the Center -- so, I actually kind of oversee a variety of programs at the Center.  So, we have this thing called the Gender Identity Project where we do a lot of kind of, I guess, outreach work, kind of in-house, and then external-facing work for people who identify along the TGNC spectrum.  So yeah, so I supervise people who run support groups for people who identify along the trans-feminine spectrum, the trans-masculine spectrum, the GNC spectrum.  I oversee those programs.  I also engage in kind of one-on-one 31:00psychotherapy.  So, I have some clients that I see one-on-one who are just experiencing things that they want to process.  So, I do that as well, and I also organize events that are meant to be for the benefit of T/GNC people in the tri-state region.  So, it's kind of those three prongs, but all with this goal towards justice and equality.

NP:  And could you tell me, is there a particular piece of art or literature or music that has been particularly meaningful to you on your journey?

KM:  You know what it is?  Yeah, I have what might be a perfect answer for that.  And I promise it was not rehearsed.  It just came to me when you asked.  But I think "Strange Fruit" by Billie Holiday.  One, because as anyone that's heard the song knows, it's a very haunting song and it's obviously about the lynchings in the Jim Crow South and her rendition of it is beautiful.  But 32:00what a lot of people don't realize, I know I didn't realize until I was an adult, is that "Strange Fruit" was written by an Ashkenazi Jewish schoolteacher in the Bronx.  It was not written by Billie Holiday.  It wasn't even written by a black person.  It was written by a Jewish person.  So, I think that that particular piece of music is perhaps closest to my soul because it incorporates both parts of me.  Well, many parts of me.  It incorporates blackness, Jewishness, and also the overlap between the struggles for -- or the fights against anti-Semitism and against racism and the fight for justice.  So, "Strange Fruit" is definitely a poem turned song that is definitely very close to my heart.

NP:  And what of your experience or the wisdom that you've learned on your 33:00journey would you consider most important to transmit to future generations?

KM:  I think the tenacity.  You have to have the tenacity, 'cause it's painful, right?  I think it's -- when you're doing this exploration of trying to get closer to a certain part of your heritage or maybe trying to uncover things that have been purposefully erased, I think, right, there's so much that gets dug up, right?  Like when I look into my personal ancestry, I have to -- necessarily think about rape.  I have to necessarily think about enslavement and things that are really uncomfortable, like sexual exploitation.  I have to because it's part of so many of my ancestors' experience.  And it's really easy to be like, I can't engage with this, I'm not going to, and give up on it.  So, there's that and then there's also the pushback.  Something maybe I would never have envisioned as a child is that the pushback is there, like I mentioned when I mention to black people sometimes that I'm part Jewish, I get, Oh, she's -- I 34:00remember that someone made fun of me in high school.  Mind you, in Chicago, in a very liberal school.  A black girl said, "Oh, Kylie is going around saying that she's Semitic.  She's trying to pretend she's not black."  And just completely this thing that was so myopic, so not what I was going for.  And that did put me in a space where I didn't talk about being Ashkenazi for years, because I was like, Oh, well, I don't want people to think that I'm ashamed of the majority of my ancestry.  And so, you have to learn to overcome things like that and then you have to learn to overcome pushback when you go into spaces and you think, Oh, well, we have this genetic bond, so surely people are gonna open up and be my friends. 

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

KM:  So, I think that something that I would pass along to future generations is definitely tenacity.  I think you have to be willing to kind of push through the pain of what you might uncover, right?  I think family histories are rarely 35:00simple and they're rarely always warm and fuzzy.  For example, for me personally, if I'm looking at my genealogy, I have to be looking at slavery.  I have to be looking at rape.  I have to be looking at dehumanization on many levels.  I have to; I can't ignore it.  And for me, I found that very traumatic.  I have found myself in tears sometimes.  I found myself really angry sometimes.  I found myself going to dark thought places sometimes, when you have to imagine people's lived experiences.  And so, I think -- expect that, but also kind of if it's worth it for you, then it's worth pushing through, working through.  Talk to someone and get the support that you need to work through that vestigial trauma that can be triggered.  And also, something that I've experienced in my journey is when I've mentioned to black people -- 36:00I'll never forget, in high school, there was this girl who, when I mentioned that I was partially Ashkenazi, I remember that she went and was making fun of me behind my back saying, "Oh, Kylie thinks that she's Semitic," meaning to imply that I'm trying to pretend to be something other than black, as if I'm not proud of the majority of my ancestry when it's not.  I don't think there's a contradiction in saying I'm black and saying that I'm part Jewish.  I think they can exist in the same space.  But it's my truth and that, for years, is something that I kind of held onto and it kind of encouraged me to maybe not claim or look into my Jewish ancestry as much because I didn't want to be perceived as someone who was trying to be uppity or trying to not be black anymore, 'cause that's just not the case.  And then, also, two, I have found that I think I once operated on the assumption that if I went into Ashkenazi or just generally Jewish spaces and said, "Hey, this is also part of my ancestry," 37:00that I'd be welcomed with these open arms, like this ending of a Bollywood film, like, "Yes, come my daughter, come, come, come," welcoming you into the fold.  And that's definitely never happened.  I have one friend who's Ashkenazi who's taught me about certain things and showed me certain things.  But otherwise, it's been kind of a lot of polite, Oh, that's nice but also, we're never gonna call you for dinner or whatever or for shul or whatever.  And that's hurtful but I think, again, being tenacious, am I willing to push through all the doors that might be closed in your face?  It's worth it.  It's worth it.  What I had found out thus far, which is not everything, not even the majority has been worth all the pain.  So, tenacity is what I'd recommend to future generations.

NP:  And in your experience and your perspective, what is the way to work 38:00through that trauma of the ancestors?

KM:  God, it is so -- a lot.  So, part of it for me is I go into what my personal faith system is, I guess.  So, I do practice Santeria.  Santeria and Hinduism, as well, more recently.  But Santeria's kind of an African-based religion which was brought over by slaves to the Caribbean and South America and parts of North America, as well.  And a lot of it revolves around ancestor worship, so I think that kind of communing within the ways that feel appropriate with los santos [Spanish: the saints] or the orishas, as they say, helps a lot, I think.  I light a white candle and sit and kind of contemplate.  It's basically a form of meditation, right?  It's just meditation by another name.  So, that helps me work through it.  And I think also being honest, talking with 39:00it -- about my mom -- talking, I'm sorry, talking about it with my mom, my husband, being honest, like, Oh, this person might have purchased a girl when she was seven and had sex with her and had children with her.  And that's fucked up, right?  We're talking about rape.  Actual rape.  And so, I think just not holding onto it and not being ashamed of it.  And luckily, I have a very accepting husband who is (laughs) super excited to be married to a black Jewish woman.  'Cause he's like, "Wow!  How many people in India can say that?"  And I'm like, "You can!"  So, he's really a great person to talk to.  And so, I process a lot with him.  And when I'm in more formal forms of therapy, then I talk about it with my therapist, too, when it's appropriate.  But also, I take breaks.  I think taking breaks is a big thing.  I don't look at Ancestry.com every day because it's actually -- I need times off.  I actually hadn't looked at it for probably a month or so just because I'm like, you know what?  Also been busy but also, it's heavy stuff.  They're heavy 40:00thoughts.  And so, yeah, that's my way of processing the pain of the people that came before me.

NP:  If there was something you could say to your ancestors, what would it be?

KM:  (laughs) That struck a nerve.  For some reason, that struck a nerve.  What could I say?  I think if I could ask my ancestors anything, I would want to know what it was like coming off the slave ship.  (tears up) I'm sorry.  I would love to know what it was like coming off a slave ship.  And that probably sounds really self-indulgent, to be like, Please give me your narrative.  But I just would love to know how they survived and what their thoughts were.  As well as, I'd love to know how they survived and what their thoughts were.  I'd love for them to just tell me that, I guess.  And I'd also love to ask Ben 41:00Davis, Why?  Why did you abandon us?  Us meaning, I guess, his descendants and his children, as well.  I even have pictures of people who were his children.  My mother remembers his son, actually.  Why did you abandon us?  I would love for him to tell -- Why did you abandon us?  Why?  'Cause he apparently had a twenty-year relationship, maybe longer, with Christiana.  Why did you leave?  Why was there nothing?  Why is there no trace of you in our lives post this?  Why did you cut us off like that?  Yeah, so those are two things that I would really -- I hope I can answer one day.  I really hope there's some silver bullet document that I can find about that one day.  (laughs)

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

NP:  And in your opinion, what is the role of language in the transmission of 42:00wisdom or stories between generations?

KM:  Yeah.  I think language is perhaps the most important vehicle of transmission because -- so, someone who is fluent in four languages, I can say there are nuances in each language that can't be translated, right?  And so, I think it's especially around those untranslatable nuances that language is so crucial, right?  Because it -- yeah, I think language is at the crux of transmitting knowledge and experiences and ways of viewing the world, quite frankly, right?  I think, right, that's why Hebrew was resurrected, to a certain extent, as the state language of Israel, right, because people understood this as being a vehicle of connecting with the past, right?  And why I think that it was -- when Africans were brought to America, they were intentionally mixed on plantations where different language groups were put on 43:00different plantations so that people couldn't communicate, so that whoever was born there probably wouldn't be able to speak the language of their parents because their parents couldn't speak to each other and they had to choose English as a common language.  So, we were intentionally cut off from the schools of knowledge that West African languages convey.  So, I think language is the most important thing.  I know for certain that I'll make sure that my kid speaks Spanish.  I'll make certain that my kids speak French and my husband will make sure that they speak Tamil, as well.  And then, obviously, English, too, if they were up here.  But yeah, language is everything.

NP:  And it sounds like you've been on such a deep journey of exploring your relationship with your ancestors and their stories.  And I'm curious, looking forward, as you continue on this path, where do you see yourself in, say, ten 44:00years in relation to your Jewish identity?

KM:  So, where do I see myself in ten years?  So, in ten years, I hope to have a bit more of Ben Davis's family tree fleshed out.  I also hope to have made definitive contact with some of his descendants here 'cause I assume that he probably has some descendents in New York.  I actually -- spoiler alert -- I may have actually found one on 23andMe 'cause we connected and we kind of did this comparing genomes thing, which sounds so weird but it's true.  And this person, there's a lot of overlap.  So, I'm like, "We might be cousins."  So, I hope to actually kind of know who some of my cousins are from his side.  And with respect to Judaism, even my husband is like, "Oh, would you ever convert to Judaism?"  And I honestly don't think I'd convert religiously.  I don't think that I can say that religiously, I profess monotheism.  I definitely don't 45:00profess monotheism in any form.  So, I don't think that I would convert to Judaism.  But I do hope to get to know it a bit better in terms of specific questions answered about my specific ancestry.  And I hope to have then gone to Eastern Europe.  I want to go to Belarus.  Perhaps if they were from parts of Russia, the Ukraine, I want to go there and experience where my ancestors would have come from.  And maybe I might even find an Ellis Island record, too, to help the search.  So, I just hope to be further along in the search and have a lot more specificity than I have now.  So, if we ever do a part two, then I hope I can say, "Hey guys!  So, since last time, I found this --"  (laughs) But in ten years, I would have those -- and then, I guess -- I hope to have kids in ten years, so I would love my kids to have a sense of this ancestry, too.  And you know, I'd love them to speak Yiddish.  If they're growing up in New 46:00York -- and I think it's really easy, 'cause there's such a large contingent of Yiddish speakers here and we can go to Borough Park and do whatever.  But I want them to speak Yiddish.  I'd love them to; teach their mom.  (laughs)

NP:  Well, thank you.  So, we're nearing the end of our time here.  Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?

KM:  Yeah, I think that -- I guess if there was some message to the world, I'd say I think it's so important for us to acknowledge -- in the same way that I was talking about the diversity of being black, like black isn't just one thing, I think we also need to complicate what our notions and assumptions about Judaism are.  And I think that we as a greater world and perhaps we as people of Jewish ancestry or people who practice Judaism, as well, need to complicate what our assumptions about Jewishness is, maybe kind of divorce Jewishness from a certain phenotype, a certain way of living, right?  I think being able to see 47:00people who are Ethiopian Jews as just as Jewish as people who are Ashkenazi or Sephardic or Hasidim or -- kind of embracing -- or the Bene Israel from India, right?  A lot of Jews came from India, as well.  And acknowledge this plurality and really celebrating it, right?  I think that we don't celebrate the diversity of Judaism enough.  And we think it has to look like Ashkenazi, just purely Ashkenazi.  And I'm like, Well, that's one thing, right?  But there's so much beauty in the diversity of Judaism.  And I guess that's my message to the world: just, like, I think it's really time that we as a people, as a Jewish people, as a partially-Jewish people, and as non-Jewish people -- make space for seeing Jewishness, Jewry in all its beautiful complexity and nuance.

NP:  Great.  Well, thank you so much.  (laughter) I'd like to thank you personally and also on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center.

KM:  Thank you.  Well, thank you so much for this opportunity.  This is the 48:00first time in my entire life I have ever been given a mike to speak about Jewishness at all.  I'm thirty-one, this is my first time.  I've never been invited to a space like this and I don't think I have the words to express my gratitude for having this opportunity.  This is actually a bit of a dream come true, I guess.  And just thank you so much.  This means the world to me.  Thank you.

NP:  Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]