FRANCES MORRILL SCHLITT

EMMA MORGENSTERN: This is Emma Morgenstern and today is December 10th, 2010. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Frances Morrill Schlitt and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Frances, do I have your permission to record this interview? Do I have your permission to record the interview?

FRANCES MORRILL SCHLITT:Yes, of course.

EM:Great. Okay, can you start by telling me briefly about your family's background?

FMS:My family's background or my background?

EM:Your family's background, and then we'll get to you. (laughs)

FMS:Well, I know more about my father than my mother, actually. But my mother came from Panevėžys, which is a real city. I mean, it was a large city and it 1:00had an important yeshiva. I've only learned this from other relatives, 'cause she spoke very little about it. And I wasn't smart enough to ask the right questions. And when I did -- for example, when I was going to Europe after I graduated School of Social Work, she told me she had been to Europe and there's nothing to see. And she was right, from her point of view. My father grew up in a shtetl [small Eastern European village with a Jewish community] outside -- close to Panevėžys. And they met here in the States at the wedding of a friend. My mother spoke -- she was uncomfortable in English for most of her life. And I stupidly thought she was not literate. But the fact is, she could read and write Yiddish, and that was really rather unusual for -- women didn't go to school. In Panevėžys, they went to school. But she learned -- as I say, 2:00she didn't learn English and she didn't learn Lithuanian and she didn't learn Polish. She knew Yiddish and it was always -- after she died, I realized she had a siddur that's in both Yiddish and Hebrew. In the same way that we have the English explanations, this is Hebrew -- this is in Yiddish. It's really a treasure. My father came here when he was five and he thought of himself as an American. My mother never did, really. She was always astounded by things like chocolate cake, when she made wonderful rolls and breads and all kinds of things. And my mother really, most of our lives -- and I think that was a generational thing, centered around family. On Sundays, the one uncle that had a 3:00car would pack everybody in and we'd go to visit some other relative. Well, some other sister and brother. But the weekends were spent totally with family. I mean, you may go to the beach, but you went together. There wasn't a sense -- and they had other acquaintances, but real friendships were within the family, and also real disappointments and anger. I mean, you had the whole thing. It was -- my father at one point didn't like my mother's family. It was just this kind of thing or some particular person and it -- and you never knew the reason, really, why. But the fact is that they were all together all the time. This is -- and they lived close by. Wasn't like you had -- you walked there. And this was a Jewish neighborhood in Boston, actually, called Dorchester. I'm sure other people that you've interviewed have lived there. But it was really a 4:00self-selected ghetto, which was very nice. Prior to that, I lived in Maine and the story which probably is -- what's the word I want to use -- apocryphal is that one of my great-uncles' brothers went there, to Auburn, Maine, and wrote a letter back 'cause everybody was in New York, living in a tenement -- that you could buy a house in Auburn for very little. So, they all went to Auburn and it turns out what he meant was you could buy a horse. That's the family story. But it was even then when I grew up -- was largely French Canadian. But again, the community was very tight. And you probably knew everybody in the community. Yeah, my parents probably did, in one form or another. And there was kind of 5:00status difference between the Jews that lived in Lewiston and those that lived in Auburn. Auburn was poorer. And it was really -- the only word I can say is a very heymish [familiar] existence. You did not -- I did not know anyone except -- when I went to school, even, I can't remember a friend until I moved here. I had one friend, he was a Jewish kid who lived next door. But I can't remember growing up with friends that weren't Jewish, I mean -- and in a community that's totally French Canadian. I mean, we're talking about -- and these were the shopkeepers and the bakery and the butcher shop and whatever you needed to maintain a non-secular Jewish life. And then, you had the Workmen's Circle. You 6:00had other organizations which were very important during those days because you could get a doctor when you needed him if you were a member. And he would come to the house. And I remember that vividly. And so, there were certain benefits that were very important -- you could borrow money, you could -- it's that sort of thing. Does that give you some sense of -- yeah, that was really the way it was. But I really -- when I look back now, the idea of -- it wasn't that we were shunned. We self-selected to be with each other. I mean, I don't think my -- there may have been business dealings, but I don't think my parents, growing up, knew -- early on. Later, when they lived in subsidized housing, they did get to know other people. But that was late in their lives. But early on, these were small, tight little communities. Dorchester was not so small. It was a larger 7:00community. But nonetheless, it was still -- you could draw a red pencil around the area that was totally Jewish. Now, there were other parts of Dorchester that were not -- that I never knew about. And there were other places that Jews lived that I had heard about but not really -- didn't know about till I went to college, like Brookline. And I think Sharon, at that time, also. And Newton. People were moving -- when I was in college, people began moving out of Dorchester into Newton, Brookline, Stoughton. And again, this depended on income. Stoughton was -- Brookline, I think, was probably the most elite and then you had Newton and then you had Stoughton and other towns around that area. But it was an interesting kind of thing. And I was not conscious of it until 8:00high school. And even in high school -- it's self-selected if you're in the college whatever. I think, of people I knew -- I mean, it was interesting, 'cause the person who was the president of our class, our senior class, was black. Very light-skinned. And I remember going to her house and it was a middle-class street. And plunked on the periphery, but very -- really part of the Jewish community. And I walked in and they had two parlors, one for guests and one for family. I mean, this was a middle-class home. I had never seen two parlors. And I'd never seen a house that was quite as -- not only was it extremely clean, it was larger than any house I had ever seen. It was a big 9:00house. And it didn't strike me that that was unusual, for blacks to live in large houses, because we had -- Townsend Street was a street where you had middle and upper middle-class blacks. However, I never saw her socially. We did things in school and I -- you'd have meetings at her house, but I can't say she was a friend. The friends still remained mostly Jewish. And within walking distance. It wasn't like where you were schlepped by car somewhere. It was within walking distance. And this was very -- this was taken for granted. I mean, I didn't even think it was unusual. And then, I went to Brandeis and that -- one tried at Brandeis not to be Jewish while it was totally Jewish. Not totally, but largely. It was a very interesting experience when I looked back. And I never joined Hillel. I never had any -- Brandeis is different now. You 10:00have kids walking around with kippahs and whatever. That was out. That didn't happen then. And there was this kind of notion -- not that we were -- that we would not acknowledge that we were Jewish. We would. But it was irrelevant. Now it can be -- only can be irrelevant at Brandeis. It can't be irrelevant any -- it could not have been at other -- any other school. I mean, I have friends who -- at Bates, Margot was -- her roommate had to be Jewish and that was just the way it was. And we had none of that. And it was a much more laid-back school in terms of -- and I think that's true of Jews in general. But formality wasn't the focus. I mean, you could go to the dining room in jeans and nobody said you had 11:00to wear a skirt. Radcliffe, you did and you had -- I don't know what they did at Harvard, but I think probably a shirt and tie. But it was very different. It's -- I also took a course -- am I moving into -- away from my parents and into college? Is that okay?

EM:Yeah, that's fine.

FMS:With Irving Howe on Yiddish literature -- I was quite naïve when I went to college and I thought that wasn't particularly unusual. Was the only course that was given, in the country, in a college. But I thought somehow, all colleges did that. It was really a very special place in the early years. And again, I think that there was a sense even within the faculty that students could argue. I 12:00mean, I remember not understanding that these were -- we had some really preeminent people, and the idea that we could criticize what they were saying, when I look back, is phenomenal. It doesn't happen at most colleges, especially if you got a hotshot. And we had a lot of them at the beginning, only because there were many, many émigrés that came in. And they taught at the New School, they taught other things. But then, they came -- Brandeis hired them and they became very illustrious in their fields. On the other hand, women were treated badly. I didn't realize that, but I had Syrkin, Marie Syrkin, I don't -- the name may not mean anything to you. But she was a remarkable Jewish historian, well-known -- for a section leader. She did not teach a course. And she 13:00certainly had the cred-- when I look back, she was as good or a -- better in terms of credentials than many of the other faculty. And the women were our language teachers. And nobody cared about that. That wasn't particularly significant. But you -- only in retrospect do I see all of this. I took it all for granted. I had no idea that this was -- it was a rather unique experience, I think -- American college life. It was -- we had seminars in faculty homes because there wasn't enough space. And you got to know them in a way that -- I remember at one point -- I was a sociology -- well, sociology and anthropology. They didn't have separate departments then. And I had brought a friend who was in sociology at Harvard to a class. I don't know how it came up, but it was a 14:00class that Lew Coser taught. And he was, again, a very left-wing but recognized sociologist. And he asked me to come to his office the next day and I went. And he said to me, "I hope you're not going to get married now." And I said, "I don't think so." And he said, "'Cause you really should go on to graduate school." That was another problem at Brandeis. In order to make their mark, students had to go onto graduate school. It doesn't -- otherwise, it doesn't -- and when I decided to go to School of Social Work, I couldn't ask Coser for a recommendation, 'cause I knew that he'd say, "Why are you doing this?" Whereas Bob Manners was in the anthropology department, I knew it would destroy -- didn't have that mindset. But it was really a school where -- it's the beginning; how do you establish yourself? And I remember -- that's the other 15:00thing I remember from -- well, there were two things. But in my senior year, we had a class called -- wasn't called Senior Ed. It was called something else. I'm trying to think of the name of it. Oh, Gen-Ed. Well, we had very -- again, people, political people otherwise come to school and speak only to the seniors. So, once a week, at the night, you would go and you'd really hear some illustrious people. And one day, Irving Howe came up to me and I think I was secretary of some -- of the student union, whatever. And he asked me to invite Howard Fast. Does the name mean anything to you? Okay. He was still a communist when nobody should be communist after the Hungarian Revolution or whatever. So, 16:00I, like a dummy, said yes and invited him. And then, we invited him to dinner. I lived in a co-op at that time. It was called Roosevelt House. And he came to dinner. And halfway through the conversation, I realized, Oh, my God, who are we inviting? This is going to be a real fight. And it was. I mean, when he spoke -- and, of course, Irving Howe and Coser and there were a lot of people that were on the left but not on the communist left. And during those years, those distinctions were very significant. And Howard Fast was one of the last to hang onto this. He left the Party about, I think, three months after he came to Brandeis. But it was such a -- (laughs) I don't know how to -- there was such feeling and emotion and anger and self-righteousness and the whole thing. It was 17:00quite an evening. But I had no idea -- I mean, I know who he was, but I had no idea that I was being set up to invite this guy so they could attack him. And they did. I mean, was -- it was one of the moments -- the other time I remember -- and I just love this story -- is I waitressed when I was at college. When the board of trustees met or whatever, you'd -- I don't know, you put on a little black dress and an apron, whatever, and at one of the board of trustees' meetings, there was a man named Cheskis. He had been part of the Middlesex Medical School or whatever that was there before Brandeis came. So, he still was on the faculty, the French faculty. And very -- just a lovely man, a very kind, very -- he would really -- if you were in the coffee shop and he came in, he 18:00really wanted to know how you were and what was going on and that kind of person. Anyway, they were talking about faculty salaries. And he got up and he said, "You know what? The full faculty, full professors and whatever, really don't need the money. It's the younger people coming in when they're starting families with children and whatever" -- and everybody sort of just said, Well, that's Cheskis. But I was just so taken with that. And it was interesting, because I don't -- there was another time when there was a lot of worry about hydrogen bombs and atomic bombs, but mostly hydrogen bombs. So, there were a group of us that wanted to put an ad in "The New York Times" saying that we opposed whatever was happening. Developing hydrogen bombs or using them or practicing with them, something. And Sachar called us. We went to his home and 19:00he said, "You can't" -- 'cause we wanted to say, "Students of Brandeis University." And he said, "You can't do that. You can put people -- you have to say -- you have to put names. You cannot just say, 'We the students,'" 'cause it was much cheaper. Now, we knew we could not afford that. And then, he turned to us and said, "How many of you are on scholarship?" And that was the end of it. That was the end of it. He was very shrewd, really shrewd, and was able to deal with the faculty that was varied. You had both. You had teachers, the political science teacher. There was a -- John Roche. There were a number of people who were much more right of center than most of the faculty. But it could be 20:00discussed and it -- and so, it wasn't the sort of thing that -- it was always in the background. I mean, you knew where people stood. That didn't mean that they taught that way. They taught the way professors should teach. But you knew where they stood. I mean, a magazine like "Dissent" was started at Brandeis. So, it was that kind of place. It's not now. It's really quite different. But that was my early years. And being Jewish was just like breathing. It wasn't -- the first time I realized that it was complicated is after I graduated the School of Social Work, I went to Europe. Every -- I mean, this was -- nowadays, I mean, as 21:00my son David is -- he's not particularly anxious to go anywhere unless there's a reason. But because -- he's already been to a lot of places. So, it's --- and I won't say he's blasé, but it was very different. We were hungry to go and travel. On my first trip, I went on the "Île de France." I had no idea it was the last voyage. And it was quite something. And I started to say something about that trip. There was some point I wanted to make. Oh, I know. I ended up in Israel 'cause my roommate was both an Israeli and an American. Her father -- they lived on West End Avenue, which was the way it is now, though in intervening years, it really became quite different with single room occupancy. 22:00New York went through that period. But she was an Israeli, basically, and they had -- she married early and was living in Haifa. So, I went and visited them. But being in Israel was the first time -- and I -- obviously, I went to other places, as well. But being in Israel for the first time made me aware that I was an American and not necessarily a Jew. Here, if -- I would identify myself as a Jew -- a woman who's Jewish and lives in America. I mean, I don't think of myself as consciously as an American. But there you were. And these were the early years. And Americans -- you were always pressed to say, "Why don't you 23:00come here?" And when I came back, I remember this, people would say to me, How was your trip? And if I went into any grey area where things weren't so terrific, they -- this was a bad thing to do. So, I learned afterwards to say, when they asked me, it was wonderful. "It was wonderful." Because this was a time, also, when you couldn't -- people were very -- Israel was a real thing. I mean, these were the -- we were not in the Second World War. We did not go -- but we were very aware of it. And I think there was some discomfort with that. And how could you then talk negatively about Israel? I mean, it's wonderful, it's the Promised Land. Well, it had -- and then, I stayed on a kibbutz for a 24:00month. And I had this idealistic notion that everybody on a kibbutz was smart, intellectual, and here they were, these intellectual farmers. And the women were all in the kitchen or they would -- with the kids. I mean, the roles were exactly what you'd have here. I mean, they were very segregated at that time. But they were ordinary people and some were very bright and some were interesting. And some were just boring or -- at that point, I would say they were boring. I -- now I look back and they were perfectly nice -- I'm sure perfectly nice people. But it really changed my notion of what a kibbutz was. Not the idea of it, but that the people that joined it were not necessarily singular. I mean, they were -- but that's really college and graduate school. 25:00And then, I lived in New York. And again, except for black friends, 'cause there were a number of black friends that -- people -- you got women in the school system. And I was a school social worker. That was really a -- real mobility. And many of them were married to people -- men who had lower status jobs, like working in the post office. I mean, they were secure jobs, but -- and they may have gone to college. They probably did. But at that time, there were really a number of really wonderful people who were teaching who were black. Latinos were coming -- and Puerto Ricans, actually, were coming in. And within the ten years that I was there, you just got the beginnings of their entering the school 26:00system as professionals. Most of them were teaching Spanish as a second language or however they defined it. I mean, English is a second language. I'm sorry, I don't mean Spanish. But there was not an immersion course in English in the -- there was this whole thing about how do you deal with this? Do you -- which is the best way in terms of curriculum to deal with teaching a child a different language? They were all lousy. I mean, even in college, they were terrible. And Americans didn't think it was important to have another -- I mean, I'm astounded at this now. But to speak another language was -- again, who needs it? And, I mean, I was -- when I first went to Israel in 1960 -- now, my receptive language in terms of Yiddish -- that's -- by the way, you should put that in the 27:00questionnaire. You have expressive, you have reading, you have writing. But you don't have receptive language. And my receptive language was fine. I understood -- there was no question I could understand -- except for a Polish accent, because my parents were Lithuanian. So, there was a whole thing about -- the language is just pronounced differently. And I have -- at times, my ear would -- I'd have to get attuned to it. But I had no problem understanding Yiddish. And when I first went to Israel -- and certainly, I was forced to speak it. But you could get by in Yiddish in 1960. Now, you don't have to. I mean, English is -- but in those years, you could -- if you didn't know Hebrew, the second language was really Yiddish. It was not English. (clears throat) Excuse me. That's 28:00changed totally. But it's quite remarkable. People who came from other countries -- they were not young, all of them -- learned Hebrew. And I don't know whether you know about this: there was this whole split about newspapers and Yiddish. There was this whole feeling of being -- that Yiddish was part of the Jews who were -- they weren't heroic. They weren't athletes. They weren't farmers. And in Israel, you've got to be all those things. And you've got to be strong and you've got to be competent and you're not going to be seen as weak or feeble or even feminine, if you were a male. And so, Yiddish was not valued. And they had 29:00-- Ben-Gurion allowed one newspaper in Yiddish. There were a number of Hebrew newspapers. And I think that they dealt with it by having one -- and I -- there was some -- I don't remember -- conflict about that. But it took a lot of politicking to get a newspaper in Yiddish in Israel during those years. I mean, it just wasn't -- and the language, certainly, was not taught. It isn't now, either. But they were trying to get -- it was a moment where I think they really wanted to get out of the ghetto and out of Eastern Europe. That was the -- this was a new -- the Israeli was a new Jew. And, in some ways, they are. And they really are. I mean, in this country, in order to be Jew-- it doesn't -- it 30:00depends on where you live. In New York, you do not have to identify with a synagogue or a Jewish community center and that sort of thing, because they find you -- I remember during the Six-Day War -- or maybe it was later. There was some event, you just automatically, wherever you worked, people came and said, "You have to give money for this." In Boston, wherever I worked, this would never have happened. You have to be tied up to some institution. And I don't think Israelis understand that, because they just take being Jewish for granted and why -- at least the ones I know who are totally secular can't understand this. Why would you want to join -- we belong to -- egalitarian minyan, which is wonderful, 'cause it's a community. And it has nothing to do with religion, per 31:00se. I mean, no one's walking around saying, Do you believe in God?" It's irrelevant to -- but it's a community and it's a very important community, at least in our lives. But there's no other way. There is no other way. The Workmen's Circle tries and they do have classes in Boston that are quite good. But it's every other week. And interestingly enough, most of the members of that particular branch that run the shule [secular Yiddish school] are intermarried couples who want their kids to have something and also to have -- to maintain that left-of-center posture. And they do a good job of it but it's too little. And it's too little, I think, too late, because the rest of the community is 32:00totally -- there's just no other way of acknowledging even your ethnicity, never mind your religiosity, without joining something. You just can't. You cannot be a Jew -- I mean, I realized that when I was in the hospital recently. It's impossible to observe a Jewish holiday like Yom Kippur by yourself. It just doesn't work. You have to be with other people. And I think that's a characteristic that's very important. Jews have societies of one kind or another. First there were landsmanshaft [association of immigrants originally from the same region] that -- where they had the -- towns where they came from, which served as -- what's the word I want to use? Credit unions. I mean, very low interest loans. But you had to have some kind of communal structure. I think 33:00that simply comes from the Eastern European experience. But you had to have some kind of structure there in which you could do -- you could help people, you could make sure that they were taken care of, the widows and children kind of thing. But it really has -- it's just impossible to be a Jew on your own. I'm convinced of that now. It just is, especially if you have a family. I mean, what are you going to -- you can't live on chicken soup. And that's really a problem, I think, for a lot of people. Or that seder that isn't really a seder, where everybody's sort of waiting to eat kind of thing. You just can't -- that's not transferrable. That's simply not transferrable. The dishes are, but the whole 34:00reason for it being and why you're together and all of that is not transferrable if you don't do it. So, that's -- I think that's -- and we sent our kid to a Jewish day school with secular Jews. We were at that time. And we are public school people, both Jacob and I, we -- and 'cause I had been a school social worker in the New York school system. I mean, it just -- we were public school people. And then, we figured we lived in Brookline, it didn't matter whether our kid went to public school or not. We weren't changing anything. And he did go to Jewish day school. And there were many things that were wrong with that school. I mean, we -- letter after letter went out about this. But the fact remains that, for David, he became -- being Jewish was like breathing. And that was 35:00important. Also, you didn't have a large turnover. So, some of his closest friends are from kindergarten, literally. That doesn't happen often. And so, that -- there were certain kinds of secondary gains that we got from the school that we had never anticipated. And as older parents, we had -- I can't say we were intimates of people who were in there, 'cause I was in my forties -- of people who were maybe in their late twenties, mid-thirties, whatever. But we were very good acquaintances and we still are. We go to their kids' weddings, we -- all of that. So, it was, again, a very kind of insular existence. But when he went to high school, it was not a problem. It was not a problem. As a matter of 36:00fact, in his junior year, I don't know why, but he decided he was going to wear a kippah because there was one other kid in the fancy classes that wore a kippah. So, he figured -- and he did it for a year and that was the end of that. But he really liked high school. It was a very different experience and an important one. And he went to the Hebrew -- the high school -- I thought he'd last for five minutes. But he went and there was a wonderful, wonderful teacher. Remarkable man who taught rabbinics. And he went two nights and on Sunday mornings, which amazed me. But when he got to college, he knew what a close reading of a text was about. He really did. I mean, that was amazing to me, but 37:00it's true. I mean, it wasn't difficult, 'cause that's what they do. Another question, something. (laughter)

EM:Sure. So, you talk a lot about being secular and then joining a minyan. What was your religious life like when you were growing up?

FMS:We were Jews by habit. It was taken for granted that -- well, more often than not, my father might go to services on Saturday. My mother -- I don't remember my mother ever going. She was always busy making lunch or whatever. And even during the holidays -- she did go to shul on Yom Kippur. That she did do. I don't remember her going -- she must have gone for part of the High Holidays, but I don't remember it, really, quite well. I have a much more vivid memory of 38:00my father going, and I have also -- when I grew up in Maine, we -- I had a wonderful great-uncle, I think you'd call him. He wasn't -- he was more distant than that, but we were very close. And we would -- I would go and my sister would go to their house in the afternoon on Shabbat and they had fruit knives with what I thought was ivory -- well, with bone handles. And they had tea glasses with silver, the glasses that came -- and I thought they were rich, because those two things -- and he would peel an apple for me in such a way that you don't -- made me know I was very special. And he would sing zemirots [Shabbos hymns sung at the table]. I mean, he was -- but that was a wonderful memory. It just doesn't -- but I'm sure that that kind of memory, which 39:00[UNCLEAR] being treated really with great love by somebody doesn't necessarily mean you have to have tea and apples and whatever. But this context was really lovely. It was really lovely. But, no, I don't remember my mother -- the thing that really, really impressed me, after she died, is this siddur I found in Yiddish and English. And I feel very, very sad that I never realized how literate she was. I really didn't. My father spoke English well, and in the house -- as I recall, my mother spoke Yiddish primarily, but my dad spoke English and she had no trouble understanding English. And she probably could've spoken English much faster. But she didn't need to. None of her sisters were 40:00busy learning English. There was just no -- she did when -- there was a time when -- it's called the McCarran Act, where there was really an issue where -- I think it was overblown, but where people who weren't citizens were worried about being deported. My mother was not a citizen. But she did go to classes and she became a citizen. That was no small feat. Again, you only know this after the fact, but it was -- she really did it. And she passed the test and she became a citizen. But that was a scary moment for a lot of people. I can't remember, I think it precluded the McCarthy era, but I'm not sure. I just don't remember the timeframe.

EM:And where --

FMS:What else, my dear?

EM:-- were politics a --

FMS:What?

EM:Were politics an important part of your upbringing?

FMS:Not at all. My father's politics were you vote for anybody who's Jewish. That was as simple as that. There was nothing more complicated than that. And you vote Democratic. I mean, that was -- it was just a given. That's how you voted. And if it were local, it was -- be somebody you knew or whatever. But to say he was really interested in politics, I would say no. I don't think my mother ever voted. But she loved Franklin Delano Roosevelt and when he died, she cried. She also cried when Al Jolson died. These were important figures. Interesting. But, no, I would say they were not active in politics and I don't remember family discussions, although eating was very strange in our house when 42:00I look back. It wasn't like you had the family dinner every night. My father would come home late and we'd come home early and my mother would always -- I don't know how she did it but she'd always make different things for -- whatever we wanted, we got and -- but it wasn't the business of sitting around chatting. That's a kind of mythology, I think. For a lot of families, by the way. I don't have many friends whose families sit around every night together having dinner. But we always think that that's the way it should be. It doesn't really happen that often. That's why Friday nights, by the way, are very important. It was important growing up, because that night, you knew you had to be together. That was -- and in that sense, these kinds of traditions are very important. I would never invite guests if it weren't for Friday night. I just wouldn't. I mean, the 43:00week gets -- but somehow, it's built into the week and you're pleased when you're invited -- somebody's home or they come to your home. But that -- Friday nights -- and I think even in secular homes, it's -- if it isn't, it should be a tradition because -- then there's no question. There's just no question, you -- this is what you do and you do this even during adolescence. You can go out afterwards, but all through high school you do this. So, it's really, I think, sort of embedded, 'cause even -- we went -- we are sec-- well, Jacob is much more secular than I am. But still, Friday night is Friday night. Doesn't matter. And the menu is the same. Well, it's not always the same, but it has a basic -- 44:00the choreography is pretty similar. It's either brisket or chicken. Occasionally fish, but that's not part of the -- and we -- the only time we eat meat is probably on Friday night. Chicken, we have during the week, but we certainly don't eat -- well, we mostly don't eat red meat and that's just by choice. It's not anything -- so, but Friday nights are important. And I think those kinds of rituals are important. And I don't know how secular Jews can do without them if they want to be connected -- it's a real problem because you just cannot be Jewish by ideology or by what you eat. You just can't. So, it is a complicated problem. And I think it's one of the issues that secular Jews wrestle with all 45:00the time. And it's like the Reform movement, which is getting more and more conservative in terms of its ritual, for similar reasons, I think. I don't know whether it's good or bad, but ritual has to play an important part in one's life. And if you -- we don't have a left wing in this country that really means anything anymore. So, where do you go? You can have your rituals within that movement, I guess, but I still feel that if you're Jewish, you have to have Shabbat. You have to have the holidays and you have to be respectful of them. I've just gone to too many seders where the -- people are so argumentative over 46:00nothing, because what's -- these are -- when I say this -- these are people who often really have no sense of Jewish history or Bible. I mean, one of the pleasures after retirement is the Bible study courses I've taken, usually in people's homes. We get together, we pay a teacher, and in Boston there's such -- it's really quite rich with -- there are feminist teachers, there are all kinds of -- now I'm taking one which really, for the first time, isn't dealing with looking at three lines of a text and spending three hours about -- on it. This has to do more with history, archaeology -- where were they on the map? Were they really on the map? How do we really know this? And I find it fascinating. But we meet once a week and, as I say, we hire a teacher who's -- this is his 47:00specialty. But it's been very good and fascinating. But I would never have imagined myself doing that when I was younger. That's not how -- I might have -- well, I am in a book club, but I would have thought of -- I'm taking some literature class, whatever. I'm not. It's a Bible study class. It's very different. I just would not have at all been -- I wouldn't even have been able to imagine it. And I think part of that, again, has to do with sending your kid to a Jewish day school. It forced us to live with the rhythm of the Jewish year, which is very hard to do. I mean, in Israel, everything closes down for the High Holidays. Two weeks -- well, the week -- two weeks before, you work part-time. 48:00Then, the week before, nobody works. And they have time to really prepare for the holiday. We have nothing like that. So, you know, I think for women, it's a huge job, it really is, if you want to keep the rhythm of the year. And see, this is the kind of thing that I think stays with you. And I don't know what you do without it, I really don't. You can join defense agencies and you can give a lot of money, but that's not really what I'm talking about. It's sort of maintaining generations. And we lose more than we gain, but that's always been true, by the way. That's always been true, historically. So, I don't get too 49:00worried about it. Ask me something else in this --

EM:Sure. You've mentioned a little bit about literature. So, can you tell me about your --

FMS:About what?

EM:Literature?

FMS:Oh, yeah.

EM:Can you tell me about your connection to --

FMS:Well --

EM:-- Jewish literature?

FMS:-- again, it has to do with a generational issue. But I'm of the generation where the Jewish writer finally came to be. Saul Bellow, Malamud. There were so many others. Women also, by the way. But they weren't really recognized till much later, people like [Jess Schlesinger?], Yezierska -- that was not -- they were not known then. But Philip Roth. I mean, there really was a flowering of the Jewish writer. That's no longer -- I mean, thank God, I think in some ways, but that's no longer the case now. You're simply a writer. But they were Jewish 50:00writers and it really -- instead of writing like Protestants, they wrote about their own experience. And it was very exciting to have that. It's not necessary now. It really isn't. I don't know whether people think of Bellow now as the Jewish writer he is -- and he was then. But it's hard not to. It's really hard not to. And it was very exciting because these books were coming out, they were just being published when I was, I think, in college and then afterwards. Or maybe before, I don't remember. But it was the phenomena -- and now we don't think anything about it because, I mean, the Irish are doing more of that than the Jews now, it's -- but there was a time. It's like Woody Allen. Everybody -- 51:00I don't know how many non-Jews really get a lot of the subtleties of his humor. I mean, I really think of it as, frankly, New York humor. But I'm associating and it's -- I'm not going in a linear way, but when I was a school social worker in Concord, Mass -- and that's a red, white, and blue town. And I remember, this was early on -- now they have a synagogue and now they have a -- I think probably a large enough community so they have a Jewish community. But they didn't then, and many -- most of the Jews were physicians at the local hospital. And if one of the kids were having, I don't know what, parents came to see me, 52:00or the -- usually the mother. She'd say people of our persuasion -- and I had come from New York to take this job. And the word -- the New York Jew was an epitaph. It wasn't a positive statement. It was -- and it was so different. But that's really a very -- it's a red, white, and blue town. They were -- at that point, there were few Jews. But it was interesting to -- people of our persuasion. And I'd say, "Do you mean being Jewish?" And then, Well, yes, of course. But that's not how they presented themselves initially. Was still a bit of a secret. People of our persuasion. No, it was -- I'm trying to think of some other people who I think of as being Jewish writers that were really -- there 53:00was -- oh, Henry Roth, also. But there were numerous others and there was -- I'm blocking on them, but they really were. And it was wonderful because up till now you -- up till then, you sort of had the English school of -- Columbia was a good example of that. And I'm trying to remember the Jew who acted -- he was quite British. Lionel Trilling. It was very hard to get into that department if you were Jewish. And you had to be the right kind of Jew. And that all ended when there was -- Jewish writer. And then he even changed, I think. But it was an interesting time. But that's what I meant by the Jewish writer. And as I say, there were lots -- oh, no, what's her name? Tillie Olsen. And they were all writing. And there's another woman. Grace Paley. Paley, I think, people knew 54:00about. Olsen, not, and the other -- Yezierska, they didn't till much later. And [Schlesinger?], they didn't till much later. But they were all, I think, writing at the same time or around the same period. And the women were always -- I can't say always, but they were talking about -- the women were talking about their lives, and usually ones of hardship. They didn't have the kind of fun that men had in those novels, they just didn't. Anyway, that's --

EM:And what did that mean to you, to have those Jewish women writers or male writers?

FMS:Yeah, it's very important because, again, it's the sort of thing -- and it -- this will not make sense to you, but it's the sort of thing where you -- for years, when I went to college, graduate school -- well, social work had women. 55:00But in so many settings, they were all men. Congress. It never occurred to me that you needed a woman, it really didn't, until we had women, until that all happened in the '60s. It was a very different time. But now, I look, I count them. It's important. Or Jewish rabbis that are women. Well, Jewish rabbis is a -- rabbis who are women was unheard of. More than unheard of, it was unconscious. One didn't even think about it. One didn't bring it up as a question. And then, all of a sudden, there was this explosion, which really, I think, changed things a great deal in this country. I mean, when -- the Equal Opportunity Act has really worked better for Jewish women than any other ethnic group. This is where all the lawyers came from, the doctors -- now, of course, there's a preponderance of them, whether it's doctors or lawyers. But that was 56:00-- that really made a difference. And the largest group of people that took advantage of that were Jewish women. Schools opened up -- I mean, when I was at Brandeis, I think it was in '57, maybe ' 56, Harvard finally admitted women for law school. And I remember being -- there was a guy named Leonard Levy, it doesn't matter, but he taught constitutional law and suggested that I go there. I was so intimidated. I couldn't imagine doing that. And I wouldn't, because I don't want to be the first of anything. It's very hard. But really, things changed enormously. That was a -- things that are just simply taken for granted now, I -- even now, when I go to services and see women who are knowledgeable, 57:00able to conduct a service, I am -- and they're not rabbis necessarily. I still see it as a special event. It isn't. David doesn't think it's a special event at all. But certainly, for me, it is. I still see it as something, really. And that's a mark of the kinds of changes that have taken place. They really have, within -- even within the Jewish religious community, it's -- or matrilineal descent -- patrilineal descent in the Reform movement. That's a big deal. It really is. And they're the largest group -- sectarian group within the Jewish community. It's a big deal. So, it's -- no, there really have been -- I mean, there still needs -- a lot more change. I mean, women rabbis often have to go 58:00out to the boondocks to find a pulpit. Or rather, they're -- otherwise, they're assistants and it takes a long while. And statistically, they become chaplains, they do other things. But it's amazing. To me it is, because these are real changes. These are real changes. And the fact that -- I don't know that I like it or not, but that people wear kippahs comfortably in public, that would never happen when I was in college, even if the person were Orthodox. He might keep it in his pocket so when he ate lunch or she ate lunch, you had -- but no, there have been real changes. Anything else you'd like to know?

EM:Sure. How did you become interested in social work?

FMS:There was -- now it's different. But of my generation, there were certain jobs. You were either a social worker or a teacher, or I -- so, the generation also where there were -- was a lot of public money for graduate school. I didn't pay a penny for schooling. Graduate school or undergraduate. That doesn't happen now. It really doesn't. So, people walk out with -- but those sort of were the options. There weren't really -- there were options, but one didn't think about them. And the other option was to go on to graduate school and teach somewhere, to become an academic. But the first section of "The New York Times," the "Sunday Times" that I read is the social section, 'cause I want to know who's 60:00marrying who and whatever. And what's amazing to me is, first of all, I don't understand fifty percent of the jobs, the titles, that people have, consulting to such-and-such or whatever. But their parents, many of the men were doctors and lawyers. But the women were guidance counselors, teachers, social workers. And I look and I see that -- what troubles me about it, when I see what the professions are, is they're not going into teaching. They're not -- I don't know who's teaching, but I worry about that in terms of the quality because none of these people -- occasionally, they'll get somebody who's teaching in a private school or even in a public school who graduated -- an Ivy League school or whatever. But on the whole, it just isn't there anymore. I don't know where they're coming from. And the "Times" really makes an effort to have a range of 61:00different people, different social strata. They really do, they try. And I don't know, and it does worry me about the quality of teaching, because none of them -- as I say, their parents, their mothers -- not their fathers -- all of them were like me. And they're even younger than I am. But that's changed. That's totally changed. I really -- it bothers me in a certain sense, particularly in teaching, where we're talking about -- so much about competency and how -- that 62:00you know what you're doing. Who are we hiring? People go to ed. school, I have no -- really, I don't think they're terrific. So, it is a problem. And also at -- even at the Jewish day school, a problem finding teachers who can teach the Judaic part of the curriculum. And the joke was that the headmaster would go to Logan Airport and look for any Israeli that came off to say, "Would you like a job teaching?" And they're awful teachers, they really are. No, they're used to having forty kids and being like generals. I remember, David was having trouble at a -- the woman who was head of the Judaic Studies department said to me, "Don't worry about him. I'll fix him." And I'm thinking, What is this? But the language was -- but I don't think that's unusual, because they're modeled on 63:00European schools and it's -- kids do what the teacher says, immediately. So, I think it's everywhere. I mean, I really think there's a real problem with -- but that's not what we're talking -- that's not a focus. I don't think that has anything -- the New York City school system, when I was a school social worker, was Jewish and black. I didn't meet one person, one Catholic or one Protestant. Well, maybe in the -- maybe blacks were Catholic and Protestants, but I didn't meet a white Catholic or a white Protestant in the school system. Boston had -- we were very lucky, because in those days -- I went to an all-girls school. And the teachers -- and again, these were college -- the college track was -- there 64:00were a lot of Jews. And the teachers, many of them were from Radcliffe. Because, again, what -- that's what you did. You were a spinster and you got these jobs. I mean, there was a time even in New York where you had to be single to teach. But we had wonderful teachers. And again, it was just because of that moment in history. I don't think that's happening now. Anyway, enough said about that. Did you have anything else to ask me?

EM:Sure. Well, I have a couple more questions. Can you tell me how you met your husband?

FMS:Jacob?

EM:Yeah.

FMS:There are two different stories. He's convinced that he knew me when -- we both worked for the Jewish Labor Committee after I -- a year or two after I graduated from the School of Social Work. He left when I came. And this was in New York. And I have no memory of him whatsoever. And when he came -- he was 65:00with the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. And when the opportunity came, it was in Washington -- and this is when the conservative movement was really beginning to take over this country. We're talking about a long time ago. It's at least thirty years ago, if not more. He came to Boston to be head of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission here and called a mutual friend of ours. And she said, "Do you know that Fran is in Boston?" Whatever, and then he called. And he was stricken when I said, "Who are you?" 'Cause I really did not remember him. I really didn't. And it was a shotgun wedding. I was five or six months pregnant. And I love the story. I would often tell David that he was at our wedding. And I'd 66:00show him this picture of me in a simple white dress and a bouquet of flowers. And he thought that babies came from bouquets of flowers, the way kids think very concretely -- but it was really funny. No, that's how I met Jacob. But I can remember the first time -- I didn't remember him and he was stricken. That's how we met. I think a network of friends is very helpful in meeting a prospective lover, husband, friend, whatever. That's -- okay.

EM:Let's see. I know you are involved in a lot of political organizations now. You're involved in J Street and --

FMS:And I wouldn't say involved.

EM:Okay. (laughs)

FMS:Involved means really being an activist. I'm not.

EM:Okay.

FMS:But I certainly am a person who supports these things. I'm also involved in the Havurah Movement, which is a separate -- a whole separate deal. Yes. Yes, I am. And I have -- again, I'm left-of-center but not crazy left-of-center, because there are people who really feel that the state -- one of the states should be binational. Whatever. I don't -- I'm not there. I'm not there. But I certainly would support Rabbis for Human Rights, J Street, Peace Now, that kind of thing.

EM:And why did you get -- or why have you started supporting these --

FMS:What?

EM:Why have you started supporting these organizations?

FMS:I haven't started. I always have.

EM:Okay, why have you always?

FMS:I don't mean to correct you, but --

EM:Yeah, no -- (laughs)

FMS:Because it's like breathing air. I mean, I'm not going to join Hadassah and I'm not going to join -- what's it called, that -- CAMERA? I just am not 68:00interested. That's not what you do. And then, nor is it what I've --- I mean, again, it depends on a community. Nor is it what our friends do. We have one or two friends that would, but we've reached an age where that's okay, too. I mean, we don't sit around arguing with them anymore. And that's just -- but basically, our friendship group is of the same ilk. So, there's really -- it isn't an issue. It just isn't. And I'm glad these groups exist. I certainly did some volunteering for the Kerry campaign and did some telephoning for Obama. But I wouldn't call that really being an activist. It's very marginal. I mean, I went to the office because it was in Brookline Village. It was three blocks from the 69:00house. I don't know whether I would have done it if I had to go downtown at night to make those phone calls, 'cause at a certain -- there's a certain -- there's an age issue here. So, it just -- certain things, you don't want to do anymore. You can do them. And I hope you do. But also, there's tremendous disappointment. I mean, I don't even want to go into that. But you have this image that life is going to get better and better and better and better. It doesn't, necessarily. At a certain point, you say enough. I mean, the schools -- I was a school social worker for a long time, in Concord and in New York City. Nothing has changed. My feeling is if you had good prenatal care and good nutrition for children and parents, you'd do a lot better. I think there are a lot of -- what's the word? Neurological deficits that cause a lot of trouble for 70:00kids about learning. And there's such a cheap way to do it. It really is. Soft neurological science, that's what I'm thinking of. It's like toilet training. Most people learn how to read. If you have a large number of kids who don't know how to read, you have to say what's going on -- besides having fifteen kids in a room and two teachers or whatever. Something. And I think a lot of these kids have difficulty because there was some neurological problems, much more than there would be if they were really cared for, if mothers were cared for prenatally and then the kids were -- we don't do that. We have experiments in 71:00that, and then they -- they cut back and cut back and cut back. So, it's -- I don't remember why the question -- what was the question that you asked initially?

EM:Now I don't remember. Oh, your political involvement in [UNCLEAR].

FMS:Yeah. But -- and then, I was involved -- the first time I recall -- crossed a picket line was -- there was a large -- it had to do with community control. I want to -- and again, we organized Jewish Teachers for Community Control. And it's amazing, somebody came from the "Times" and interviewed us and I realized that people trust what you say, even if you're lying. If you have ten members, you can say you have three hundred and they believe you. So, we became a much larger group than we really were. But it's the first time I ever crossed a picket line and I don't think -- yeah, I can't imagine myself doing it on a regular basis, so to speak. But that's a whole other issue. I mean, I also grew 72:00up not only with Jewish writers but when the labor movement was expanding. I mean, this was Walter Reuther and really remarkable people. That ain't anymore. That's gone. It's gone. But so, it was an excite-- when I look back, it was a rather exciting time to live. Civil Rights Movement and all of that going on. The second wave of feminism. You had Civil Rights Movement. You had Jewish writers and Jews became -- they didn't have to change their names anymore. I had two faculty members who changed -- Irving Howe was not Irving Howe. I think it was Horowitz or whatever. And I forget what Bob Manners was. But they changed their names, not because they didn't feel Jewish, but you -- it was easier to get a job. That doesn't happen anymore. Even with movie stars, it doesn't happen anymore. That's really a big switch. Those are things you never have to think 73:00about now. Now there's a whole other set of issues for you people to solve. But it's -- no, it was a very exciting -- the '60s were very exciting. They really were. A lot was happening and you did feel that things were going to get better. That's --

EM:So, what advice would you give to future generations of Jews or --

FMS:At seventy-five, I'm supposed to be wise. I'm not very wise. And I really don't have much to say about how you deal with this. But a national Yiddish Book Center, for example, connotes secularism. And I don't know how you deal with 74:00this. I mean, my feeling is you should go on a road show to synagogues, to community centers, to any Jewish agency to describe, really, frankly, what you're doing and charge for it. I mean, this is -- should be a big deal. Because I don't think enough people know about you. But I also think that the fact that you close on Saturdays and you observe the holidays by closing is an important statement. I mean, it's -- and I think we have to have more of that, I really do. I think we have to have -- I don't know how to -- we have to have a Jewish year that's not only respected by most people but is observed by most people, 75:00'cause otherwise, I don't know where -- how else you do it. But it's a very complicated question. And I don't know, I don't know. Even within Israel it's a complicated question. I mean, you have the rabbinate -- there it's the opposite. I mean, they are -- the really Orth-- what are they called? The black hats -- but it has another name. They really have a stranglehold on Jewish life. Even weddings, conversions -- that is not very good. But it's also wonderful. We were there one Passover and see the -- you don't have to work at it. The whole country is peysekhdik [Passover observant]. So, it's not like -- you can go into any grocery store, 76:00any delicatessen, or any restaurant and they're ready for Passover. It's a very different feeling because -- it's like Thanksgiving in America, where everybody observes it. I mean, Jacob really -- in a sense, I think he's absolutely true -- it's the only holiday that Jews get together and they don't argue, because this is an easy one. I don't know how you do it, I really don't. But I think of it as a problem. And I think that most day schools -- I mean, early on, we invited Aaron to David's school just to talk about the Book Center. Most day schools don't value Yiddish. They have no program in it. Canada was different and South Africa was different. But, I mean, the people, younger people, your age or maybe 77:00older who speak Yiddish well are usually Canadians. They're not Americans. We don't have it. But they went to schools where -- they managed to learn both languages. Why we think we can't do that, I don't know. I mean, it's -- they just can't do it. But it should be done. It really should be, I say -- it's as much a part of the heritage as anything else. But so be it. But I have no real important advice to give. I don't. I really don't. It's a very different world and it's going to be your issue to solve, because I can't figure it out.

EM:And how does it make you feel to have your son involved in an organization like this and --

FMS:And what?

EM:In an organization like this or in Yiddish studies in general?

FMS:Well, I think it makes his father extremely happy 'cause Jacob is a real 78:00Yiddishist. I am not. I'm pleased because he likes it, but I would be equally pleased if he were involved in something totally different. I mean, I'm not living my life through David. I mean, that's -- he's got to choose what he wants to do. But I'm pleased that he does like it. I mean, it's very gratifying. But it's his choice. It really is his -- as I say, Jacob has -- takes much more -- it's not that I minimize what he's doing, but I don't think of it as the best thing that this kid could do. He's not a kid. But he's doing what he really wants to do in a field that's tiny, that's really tiny and very competitive, 'cause there aren't that many -- well, it's competitive for all academics now, 79:00or so it's -- but that's his choice -- and I'm very glad he's in graduate school now. I don't know where he'd get a job. I mean, it's not a very good time for young people to find work. So, I'm pleased that -- in that sense, I'm pleased he's in graduate school. Wouldn't matter what kind of program, particularly. And he's happy with it, so that's what -- anything else that --

EM:I don't have any more questions but --

FMS:Good.

EM:-- is there anything else you'd like to --

FMS:I don't think so.

EM:-- say?

FMS:I think that it's -- I'm just trying to think if there's anything that's of any significance. The Havurah Movement I haven't talked about, but I think that's important. I think that is connecting a lot of young people. They have a -- the National Havurah Committee has a week of study in New Hampshire. It's 80:00wonderful. And there are more and more young people attending. It's really a wonderful program in the summer. And there -- I've seen more young people there than anyplace else in terms of -- place where you're learning and you're studying and whatever. I mean, when I look at my Torah study group, it's not like we have people in their thirties. Now, that may be because people are working and there are all kinds of reasons. I think people are much busier in different ways now and they work harder. And I think women work much harder than I did. Have only one child. But if you have more than one kid and you have a high-power job, forget it. I mean, I have a niece who doesn't sleep, I'm convinced of it. And she has all the health in the world, but she still is up 81:00till God knows when. And neither of them come home till like, eight o'clock at night. That is -- these are high-powered people. But I think women, particularly, have a hard time now. We didn't have all the advantages that you have and the opportunities. But the roles were clearly defined and -- although I take that back, 'cause I think now it's much more fluid, men and women do much more things. Many men -- I mean, I can remember when somebody -- had somebody to dinner and he helped wash the dishes. I thanked him. I mean, I remember so vividly thanking him, I mean, for something that you expect now that -- or you may say thank you because you're nice, but not because it's a revelation. And 82:00that's different. That is. But I think, really, I've covered -- at least I feel I've covered what you wanted to have covered. And is there anything else that you can think of?

EM:Yeah, I don't think so right now. I think --

FMS:Okay.

EM:-- that was good, so --

FMS:We've done it.

EM:-- yeah, so --

FMS:Okay.

EM:-- thank you so much. I'm just going to --

FMS:Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]