MICHA EISENSTORG ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is October 25th, 2010. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Micha -- Eisenstorg?

MICHA EISENSTORG: Eisenstorg.

CW:Eisenstorg.

ME:Even for us in Belgium it's very difficult. Because it's not the original name.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

ME:The original name was Eisenstach. And when my father came in Belgium, the employee in the immigration couldn't write the right name, so he changed like that --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

ME:-- became Eisenstorg. One sister of my father when she came in Belgium, she received another autograph, another -- so they came four -- four in Belgium, and 1:00all four, they received another autograph.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

ME:And to go a little bit further, it was a difficulty after the war for the -- we are not only like that. It was one of the difficulties after the war for the people who are searching the families, because there were a lot of mistakes in the name, to retrieve the families.

CW:I never thought about it in Belgium. (laughs)

ME:No, it's all over the world. All over the world, it's the same.

CW:That was a great place to start. Maybe we could go back a little further. What do you know about your family, as far back as you know?

ME:I don't know a lot. Like a lot of families, my father didn't talk a lot about 2:00his family. I know more things about my mother because they were living in Poland. Even she was an orphan when she was ten years old, ten years old in Poland, in '18, with the typhus at the time. And she had a really happy life in Poland because her parents, they had -- how do you call it in English? They had land. That's one thing -- also they had -- a windmill. They had a windmill. So, the people came to make the flour from it.

CW:Oh, flour. Yeah.

ME:The flour.

CW:A mill. A mill.

ME:A mill. A mill. Yes. So, they were quite rich. But my mother was an orphan when she was ten years old, and she was educated by her uncles and so and so. 3:00And what she could receive from her father, everything disappeared. So, when she was about in the '20s, she came in Belgium in the '20s -- also twenty -- '26 -- 'twas in '26, '27. She came in Belgium. And she came from a small village called Sosnowa Wola, in the origin of Krushnik in Yiddish, Kraśnik for the Polish people. My father came from Łódź, from Lodz. And they met in Antwerp. And I have a first -- the first son was born in '36, my older brother, and another war just outbreak -- no. The German was in Belgium. But this is maybe a little bit further, so what I wanted to say. So, I wanted to go back to my father family. The only thing I knew, I know that he came from a very poor family. I know this 4:00from my cousin Israel, because my cousin Israel had the chance to live with his grandmother. Because his father, who came in Belgium -- also with my father -- left Belgium for Palestine at the time -- in '35, with his mother. So, in my generation, I think I'm one of the only where the grandmother living, even I never met her because she passed away in '52.

CW:And she was in Palestine --

ME:And she was in Israel -- in Palestine, in Israel --

CW:Erets Yisroel [The Land of Israel].

ME:-- (UNCLEAR), in Israel. Because -- that's another story. But when I was a young -- when I went at school, I was one of the only -- I was not in Jewish day school. And I was one of the only Jew in my classroom. And in the afternoon -- it's not the same system of education in Belgium than in the United States. So, 5:00we went every day at school. Except on the Thursday afternoon. So, Thursday afternoon we were free, and I went to friends, and it was tradition that they went to the grandparents. And for me, a grandparent was something very strange. I didn't know what are and what is grandparents. And that's the same quite -- from -- large part in my generation, born just after the war, all the grandparent, like my grandparents, disappeared, like, for my -- parents of my mother, they passed away in 1918. But most of them, they perished during the Shoah. So, very few of my friend remained with grandparents. That's something 6:00very new. And in the past so far when we went with the family tree was my grand-grandparents; that's all. So, I don't know really -- I don't know very, very few things about this family. I met in a museum at Brussels last week, some people originated from Germany, and they have roots to the fifteenth century from their family. That's a different -- between Poland and between also Germany, where German Jews were very integrated and in the life of the country. That's a difference. So, I grew up -- my parents -- so when the German invaded Belgium, like a lot of people, Jews and non-Jews, people left Belgium to go 7:00south of France. And there, my second brother Paul was born in the ninth of July, '40. My parents were wondering, also like a lot of people, Are we going to Spain? Tried to go to Spain. Of course, we didn't know the situation -- '40, nobody exactly know what will happen with the Jews. So, they came back in Brussels. And when the first Nazi law arrived in '42 -- in '41 and '42, when the first deportation began, all the family hide. Separating my two brothers and my parents. And even my two brother were not together during the war. So, my second brother -- at the end of the war he was four years old, but he didn't see his mother for two years. When she came back to take him back, I don't know this 8:00woman. Even he was in a Flemish family, he was speaking Dutch. And it was the same with my older brother, whose mame-loshn [mother tongue, i.e. Yiddish] really was Yiddish -- he forget everything of his Yiddish till now. Till now. When he speaks, he speaks German and not Yiddish. It's very strange. But this is the problem, the story of a lot of hidden children during the war. So, my parents were in Brussels at the time. They recover after the war. And even during the war -- I can speak a little bit of the situation during the war for my parents. I know that they refused to wear the -- the --

CW:The mogn-dovid [Star of David].

ME:-- the yellow star. And my mother told me always that my father was going in 9:00the street. Even he was not allowed to go. It was really dangerous. He went to friends to play cards and so and so. It was always in danger. He went in the evening, and he came back -- (laughs) and he always came back safely. They were not catched during the war. But my mother, she lost two sisters, and my father also, he lost two sis-- one sister never came back, and one sister went to -- was catch. I have to tell this story, because it's story only in Belgium during all the war. A train was stopped by the Underground, by three young students. And by chance -- it's very strange. It happened the same day of the uprising of the Warsaw Ghetto. Nineteen April '43. The same night when the uprising of the 10:00Warsaw Ghetto, this train was stopped. But also, it's also story because from the first deportation in August '42 till October '42, three-quarter of the deportees were catched by the German with -- they went, you know, from house to house to catch the people. And the people begin to have to hide because they understood what happened. So, it began to be difficult to catch the people. Even Belgium is -- it was very difficult because it's a small country with a very high density of population. You have no wide spaces like in France, where you could hide. So, it was very difficult. And some people went from family to another family to hide. My parents, they remained the same family for two years. 11:00So, from October '42, it began to be difficult for the Nazi to catch the people. So, what happened in the first three months, they catch the people; they remain in Mechelen where the barracks were, because it's just between Brussels and Antwerp, where the train was coming to take the people to go to Auschwitz, because ninety-five percent to ninety-nine percent for the people from Belgium went to Auschwitz. They catch the people, and they remain in the barracks maybe for one or two days, because they need 1000, 1500 people, to send them by train. But from the period of October, it became difficult. So, the people began to remain in the barracks in Mechelen. And what did the German -- they open small 12:00-- what we can do -- factories, small factories, to -- not to let the people do nothing, doing -- if you understand what I mean. So, they opened a shoe repair. They opened a leather goods repair, a small factory, and also for clothes. And my parents-in-law were there also. My parents-in-law were in the leather goods. And he was catched in January, '43, and he was in this famous train in the nineteen April '43. Like my aunt. Also, I had an aunt who was in the same train. When the three youngsters from the Underground stopped the train, they opened one coach where maybe twenty person escapes. But most of them were killed 13:00directly by the German. But the train began to ride slow and slow and slow and -- and the people, they began to open from inside -- like my father-in-law, he took tools from the factory, and he opened the coach from inside. Like a lot of people, and from this train escaped 250 people. And it's a unique story in all Europe during the war. This is very, very important story. And I had an aunt -- also my aunt was in the same train. She escape. Even -- I receive documents after maybe ten years ago from somebody who made a study about this train. She was declared dead in Auschwitz. But I remember, because I saw her after the war. And like some people, she went back to Poland after the war. And she remain till 14:00the big -- I don't know we can call that the pogrom, but in '67 began the big anti-Semitic campaign in Poland, so like a lot of people she went to Denmark; from Denmark, she went to Israel. And she was reunited again with her brother, who was still living in Israel at the time. We grew up like that. I went to a youth -- to the tnoah [Hebrew: movement] -- it was called in the time Yehudah HaNoar HaHalutzi. It became afterward Yehud Habonim. In United States, it was always Habonim, I think -- Yehud Habonim. And when I left, because in the time also that -- everything change, even in those youth organizations. In my time, when we went to a Zionist organization, to this kind of tnoah, this kind of 15:00organization, we had to do a kibbutz aliyah. That's finished now. But in the time we had to do a kibbutz aliyah. So, I went in the camp in machaneh [Hebrew: camp]. We went in Israel in '61. We went by ship in the time. It was a wonderful experience. From Venice to Israel, for eight days, because it was a Greek ship, so we stopped two days in Athens, and it was really, really great exper-- that's another -- (laughs) another story. So, we were six weeks in Israel. We visited everything. And we remained one week, ten days, in kibbutz, in the kibbutz. And after this exper-- I thought that the kibbutz is not for me. But I was really, really -- I can name the kibbutz. It was in the Kibbutz Hanita. It's on the 16:00Lebanese border. It's a kibbutz where a lot of Belgian are living, Belgian from the same tnoah. So, when I arrived there I met a lot of friends of mine. They didn't pay any attention of me. I thought that it was maybe that's life in the kibbutz, that the people are so individual they don't pay attention one to another. Afterward, I learned that it was really a problem in this kibbutz. Because my future brother-in-law was in this kibbutz, and he gave us a lecture in the kibbutz about the kibbutz. I know him. Belgium and Brussels -- or in Antwerp -- we are very small, very close communities. And my future 17:00brother-in-law was in the same classroom than my brother. And they made also a small theater company when they were in high school. They made it with other friends. So, I knew him, of course. And I said, If it's at a kibbutz, it's not for me. So, after this experience I left the organization, and I began to try to find my way in other organizations in Belgium. Because it's a small but very active community, so we had in the time one, two very important community centers. So, I went to one I didn't like very much. I went to the other. I remained there a little bit. But it was a little bit too political. And I went to another organization, was an organization for young adults. Was created by 18:00people who left the Zionist young movement, like Hanoar Hatzioni. But they created always to be involved in Jewish community, not to -- we say, We are going out of the tnoah, out of the youth movement, and we don't do anything anymore. So, I joined them, and I was with people who were -- I was, I think, sixteen, seventeen years old. But it was the generation of my brother. So, there were -- all people, they were maybe seven, ten, twelve years older than me. But I learned a lot of things with them. And afterward, in '65, I went to the army, because in Belgium in the time you had to go to the army. I went to the Belgian navy. I was one of the only Jew, not only to be in the navy, but to be on the ship, because in Germany, they didn't like to go on the ship. And immediately, I 19:00received some responsib-- even as a -- how do you call it in United States? As a simple sailor, if you want, immediately I took responsibilities and the commander of the ship gave me some task on the ship also. Even a simple sailor. So, it was very interesting. And afterward, when my duty was finished after fifteen months, I get back to this organization. We were connected also in the United Sta-- with the Young -- what they call -- I don't know if it exists -- with the Young Judea. It was a youth organization in United States. And so, I 20:00begin to took some responsibilities there. And they asked me to take charge of the organiza-- I became the chairman of this -- or president -- of this organization. I was quite young. It was from, I think, from '67 -- yeah, '67, '68 -- till the end, in '74, '75, till the end. It was a small organization. Even we made party with one or two hundred people, but we didn't have any money. And everything began to cost a lot of money. And we couldn't afford anymore to take it in charge anyway. We had to stop it. And it was very, very, very difficult. Because also at the time, it was a time that -- it must be quite a 21:00little bit later, because it was a time that the first youngsters of Soviet Union began to come in Belgium. So, it should be in beginning of the '80s. With this part of this organization, we organized in -- not "we," but the Belgian community -- organized in '71 the first conference for the Russian Jewry. Because it was the time of the trial of -- what we call the trial of Leningrad, where twelve people were sentenced to be -- to death. And so, we made a lot of the demonstrations in Belgium. And somebody had the idea to set a big conference 22:00in Brussels in '71. It helped a little bit, but not so much. So, in '76 we organized a second conference for the Russian Jewry, for the Soviet Jewry. For the first one, we had David Ben-Gurion, who came in Brussels. For the second one we had -- Golda Meir came. Arthur Goldberg was representative of the United States in the UN in the time. He came in Brussels. I don't know how many Nobel Prize -- it was very, very something important. And after that, with this pressure began slowly, slowly to open the doors to Soviet Union. So, in Belgium we had a very, very important part for the liberty, the freedom of Soviet Jewry. 23:00And I was involved in the first, and I was involved a little bit more in the second -- the organization of the second conference. And afterward -- also, in the meantime, in '75, came in Brussels for a conference, Serge Klarsfeld. I don't know if you heard about Serge Klarsfeld. Serge Klarsfeld was a little bit -- no, I don't remember his name. He was busy in France with the situation of the chief of the -- like, Klaus Barbie. He was involved in the trial of Klaus Barbie. He was involved in all the problems of the deportation for Jews in France, for the trials of the responsible of the deportation in France. And he 24:00heard that the responsible of the deportation in Belgium were never tried. So, he went in Belgium. He had the conference. And he asked the people, "You have to do something to help, because the responsible of the deportation in Belgium were never tried." And they were living in Germany. So, after the conference -- even I didn't recognize myself, because it's not in my mood -- I went to him, to Serge, and I -- "What can we do; what can I do?" So, he asked me, "If you are interested, we can have a small conversation and see what to do." So, what we had to do is to occupied the apartment or the flat of the man Ernst Ehlers, who was the responsible of the Nazi police in Brussels. So, I told him, Okay, I will 25:00take this in charge. I took several friends of mine. Everything is secret. And we went to Germany the eighth of May, 1975. So, it's very, very symbolic because the eight May is the date of the end of the war. Normally, I was invited to a Zionist seminar in Switzerland, where I was registered. They are still waiting for me. And so, I took my car with another friend. We went with two cars. But not only that, with a crew of Belgian television, Belgian broadcast, who came with us to film everything, what will happen. It was also a very difficult period, because it was a period with the -- all the terrorism in Germany, with 26:00the Bardo -- I don't know if you heard. You surely never heard about -- it was a man from the extreme Left, who make terror. He wanted to kill some big entrepreneur in Germany. What he did with some -- one of director of one of the big bank in Germany, he was killed. So, we occupied his flat. Maybe ten minutes after we were with hundreds of policemen, German policemen, with machine guns, with dogs and everything. Because they didn't -- what happened. But we put Belgian flags on the windows. And also when they arrived, they saw the Belgian television crew. So, they catch everybody. And we spent about twenty-four to 27:00forty-eight hours in custody in Germany. It was in Schleswig, not far from the Danish border. And so, the Belgian consulate in Hamburg paid a caution to that we could be liberated. And it was, of course, in all the newspapers. Even the German Parliament made a special session about what happened. But we had to wait till '80 to have the opening of the trial. And the man -- there were three to be tried. And the man what we occupied the flat was a judge of social affairs in 28:00the land, so -- in the county, if you want, where we were. And he committed suicide just two days before the trial. But one other was condemned to eight years. Because we wanted this also to be written, the story of the deportation in Belgium. Because it was never written. And we took a young historian in that time who made really the history in Belgium. And he wrote everything. It's very long to explain, but it was something very interesting, because he made something was never made before. And unfortunately, he passed away two, three 29:00months ago, and the story's not finished to be written. And he was really the specialist of this matter. Because you have a lot of people, a lot of historians who are writing about the Shoah, of course, even in Belgium. But it took so many documents that it was really an article of historical matter. It was very, very -- so this is in the time; this is in '80 -- so the time passed. I married with somebody I knew when I was eight years old. We have common -- uh --

CW:Family? Past, or --

ME:No, no, no, no. Uh, souvenirs [French: memories]. Uh --

CW:Ancestors?

ME:Remembering.

CW:Rememberings.

ME:Remembering. Because we were in the same tnoah. We were telling the same stories, but we didn't remember one of each other. It was very stran-- and, you know, and when we were -- also, when we were fifteen years old, when I came back from my kibbutz experience, I met her on the seaside in Belgium. Because the place where all the Jews are going, it's about eighty miles from Brussels. It's nothing. On the seaside. You know, "I saw your brothers two weeks ago." But we met always in the same group of friends. And afterward, we married. And we have three children: two daughters, one living in Brussels with two kids; one's living in Israel with two girls; and my son, the youngest, who is living in 31:00Paris. And when I married, I went into my parents-in-law business in leather goods. But I was always involved in Jewish communities. Because after this experience, if you want, when I was in Germany, I became member of the Union of the Deportees in Belgium. Even I was, of course, not deportee because I was born after the war. And strangely, I was very well accepted by all the survivors. And they became really friends of mine. Some of them, they didn't want to testimony in the school. Some of them yes, some of them no. But even the people who didn't want to testimony in the school, they told me all their story. But other one 32:00also, we have -- they went to the school, so some of them went to the school till now. Unfortunately, there remain maybe two or three who have the capacity to go to grad school. They are more -- they may be, I don't know, eighty-five, eighty-seven years, (UNCLEAR) -- also the memory. And when the memory begin to be bad, you have to be care what you are telling the people. The maximum from Belgium, I mean -- the maximum that they remain in the camps -- was about two years, two years and a half. And some of them, they are telling that they remain maybe five years in the camp. That's impossible. And that's a problem with age; that's a problem with the recording of things, with the memory. That's a problem. And that's a weapon for the negationist.

CW:Right.

ME:And that's why you have to be very, very care of this. So, I went (UNCLEAR) the organization. After a few years, the president asked me to become vice president of the organization of deportees. And in 2000, he wanted to retire, and he asked me to take place. So, from now 2000 I'm the president of the Union of Deportees in Belgium. Also, you have to do a parallel. Because the right name is -- I'll say it in English. So, union of deportees in Belgium. Daughters and Sons of Deportees, like they have in France. Because he wanted to do if you want a second generation. The children of the survivors. And in '90 -- no. First in 34:00'80 -- in '80 went on the screen in Belgium a movie about the hidden children in Belgium. And that began a little bit to open the minds of the -- also of those survive, the children, the surviving children, who hide during the war, to organize themself. And in 1990, somebody from New York decided to organize a world conference of hidden children in New York for the first conference. But she hide in Belgium. Of course she didn't hide in the United States. Most of them -- so she hide in Belgium. And some of them ask me to join them. But I told them, you know, to be member of the Union of Deportees, to -- it's something 35:00else that you have a common memory as hidden children. It's difficult for me to share altogether this story because I don't have this history. So, you have a common history, and it's difficult for me to share. It's easier for me to share the story of the deportees. It's not the same. That's why I remain -- but all the member, if you want, the youngster member, were member of the deportees created, and went to the Union of the Hidden Children in Belgium. And so, also they organized in '95, in the second world conference of hidden children. So, it was in Brussels. I helped them there also to -- the conference. And it was very, 36:00very strange. Because mostly of them, they hide in Belgium. And once I remember -- there were two people, I think they were from -- I don't know. They were living in a small city in the United States. And I ask one of them, "Do you know that I saw somebody else from this town also living in the same town than you?" He told me, "Don't laugh, because we were hidden together in Belgium. We were hidden together in Belgium. And once I was walking the street, and I saw him in the street. I didn't know he was living the same city than me. He left Belgium to United States to be in the same city than me. I didn't know that."

CW:Wow.

ME:But stories like that, you know, so plenty of stories like that. When you begin to -- with the stories of the chance to meet from some deportees, it's terrible. It's terrible.

CW:So, did your parents have stories growing up with the memories of the --

ME:So, you know, this is something. I remember when I was a little child, there were always a lot of people coming to my parents' flat. And always I heard a story about this. Even it was in Yiddish or they were speaking in French. And they didn't say -- when I hear that in other families they said -- they always asked the children not to remain the same room; go to in your room. And I never had this problem. That's why I was always involve -- it was always my mind, this 38:00story. But also, it was easier -- and in the ti-- it was easier for the people, of course, who were not catched during the war, who were not sent to the camp, to tell the story to the children. It was always a secret. Because when the people came back from the camp -- and I'm sure that you heard the story -- when the people came back from the camp, when they tell the story, nobody didn't want to believe them, what happened. So, they didn't want to tell anymore the story. And they remained silent for forty years, more -- and it was the same story, the hidden children. They began only to tell the story to their grandchildren. And the same with the deportees; they began to tell the story to the grandchildren. 39:00You know, I remember when I was a child, when I was on the beach, I saw the people with the numbers. And sometime the people ask, What's your number? "I wrote this number here, because it's my phone number. I'm afraid to forget it." And it was a common answer from a lot of people. And it also -- why all this phenomen of testimony begin in the same time, testimony of the deportees, testimony of the hidden children? Because, in the same, they began to tell the story to their grandchildren. And for them, also, it became also -- maybe with the time, it became easier for them to tell the story to the people. So, I come 40:00back a little bit to me. So, I was in the business; I was running the business. It was really a small business of wholesaling in leather goods. And beginning of the two-- the 2002, 2003, all those business began to close because with the importation of Far East. And with all the big chains of business, nobody was running anymore this kind of business. So, we stopped the business. My wife began to work from her part, and I had this chance to go to work to the Jewish Museum.

CW:Uh-huh.

ME:It's a chance because -- it's also a story. I can tell the story.

CW:Yeah, I'd love to hear it.

ME:So, my son was -- in the time my son was -- he was learning journalism and communication. But the first year -- he lost his first year. So, he went to -- quite every day, or two or three time a week. He went to bring the news to the Jewish radio in Brussels. Because we have a Jewish radio in Brussels. Was the first one in Europe. Now, twenty years, twenty-five years. So, he did this for -- a little bit as a challenge. So, he presented the news. And one of the responsible asked him, "You know, if you want, in the Jewish Museum we need a 42:00Yiddish librarian." And my son came to home and said, "You know what Jack" -- in the time, his name was Jack -- "what Jack told me? That he needs somebody for the Yiddish librarian. Why did he ask to me? Because he knows that (laughs) I don't know any word -- I know any word, but even to read --" -- even he read Hebrew because he was in Jewish day school, but Yiddish, nothing. So, when he told me that, I thought, Why not me? So, I called him, so the Jack, and he said, "Why not? Why not you?" And I called also the chairman of the museum, because even he's in the eighties, but he's a very close friend of mine. He say, "Why not?" So, I went to the museum. I met a curator also. He's an old friend of 43:00mine. And that's -- so like that, I begin to work in the Jewish Museum as a Yiddish librarian, but slowly, slowly, also I begin to do something else. Because we had a need of guides in the museum, and one of the curator ask me, "Don't you want to make guided tours?" For me, it was a little bit difficult, because I'm not historian, I'm not academic, and it was maybe also a challenge. So, slowly, slowly also I begin to do guided tours. And it's a big part of my time now also to do guided tours in the museum.

CW:And --

ME:Yes?

CW:-- what kind of visitors do you get?

ME:It depends. But mostly, they are not Jewish. Adults organization and also 44:00schools that we have, non-Jewish schoo-- we have time to time also Jewish school. But mostly, they are non-Jewish. Because the problem is in Brussels that most of the Jewish community, maybe they don't know that we have a Jewish Museum in Belgium. But they don't come. Generally, their people say, We know that we don't have -- so we don't have to go visit the Jewish Museum, because we know the story. And when they come to the museum, they realize that they don't know the real history.

CW:What is the most memorable visitor that came?

ME:When we moved, because we went to a -- we had a previous place where the museum was really, really very small. And by chance, it was the same place where 45:00I was running this young adult organization. It was really by chance, because the rooms were empty, so they have room to open the first Jewish Museum in Belgium. And when we moved -- because we had the chance in Belgium to have -- at the time, the deputy prime minister was a Jew. Because we have very, very few Jews, Jews whom are doing poli-- and it's a mistake, but very few Jews are doing politics in Belgium. But he was chief justice and deputy prime minister in the time. And he was really -- in all aspects, he was somebody very important. He passed away when he was, I think, fifty-six -- very young. He was still a minister in Belgium when he passed away. And he knew that we wanted to move, 46:00because it began to be too small. And he knew that there were some places belonging to the Belgian government who should be empty in a few time. So, he gave us a new location with a new situation, really in the center of the town. Very touristic area. And when we opened there, we had the prime minister. Maybe the half of the Belgian government came for the aperture of the museum. But you have to know that we have -- we had, because the time also are changing in one end -- but we had always very, very close relations with the Belgian government, the Jewish community. When we have a problem, we can call even the prime 47:00minister. We can call everybody what we want to have a conversation with him. Though the times are changing in Belgium, because in Brussels, twenty or twenty-five percent of population are Muslims. And in the sense of elections, that means something. When you have a Jewish population who's zero, comma, three or four percent of the Belgian population are Jews, you know, they understand that in the balance, we are not very far. So, the things began to change a little bit, maybe ten years ago. But even with always some good relations with the government. So, that was one answer. But also, three years ago, two years 48:00ago, with also the brother -- because it's not the same mother, but it's not the same brother, but we had the brother of our king visiting the museum with his wife. But his wife is also a story. Because his wife, her mother was married with a Jew. And she was a client in my business. So, she's now a princess. But she was also running a business before. And she was client in my business. But of course it's a little bit private, but when she came to the museum, when she saw us, she kissed her -- princess or not princess, she kissed her when she saw, 49:00because we knew her maybe twenty, more than twenty, twenty-five years, and we were very close with her mother too. So, that's the important person. Also, we had -- time to time we have visits from -- delegations from the European Union also, important personalities from the European Union. But time to time, we have also some very -- or ministers who are coming as privates, as private persons, are also coming time to time in the museum. Or a member of Parliament. But that's really regular things.

CW:And what does Yiddish mean in Belgium today?

ME:No Yiddish of -- I should say it's like in France, because we have to do the parallel with France. It's quite disappearing. Even if we have studies in 50:00Yiddish, the people are going back to study Yiddish. But as culture, not as language. That's a difference. And you have the same phenomen in Israel, where the people who are quite not allowed anymore to speak Yiddish in Israel. And from maybe ten, fifteen years, they are going back to the university also to learn Yiddish. But we have the same in Belgium. We had the -- till maybe fifteen years, we had the -- a part of Yiddish newspaper was edited in Paris. So, we have our weekly in this newspaper. And also this newspaper, even in Paris, disappeared fifteen years ago. So, it begin really to be a difficult time to 51:00time where when we are with friends, we try a little bit to speak Yiddish together, to -- as conservation of the culture, if you want. But it's finished. For me, it's finished. The next generation will forget totally Yiddish. And I think it's irreversible, or maybe it should be something very, very strong who can reestablish this Yiddish. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not very optimistic. And that's also the problem of the future of our libraries.

CW:Yeah, how was it with raising your children?

ME:My children were alwa-- personally, I went like my brother, who went to 52:00public day school. But I send my children to Jewish day school. Because I wanted to -- that they learn something that I couldn't learn to them. And I think it was very important. So, they learned religion. It was quite -- even it was not a -- we have three Jewish day schools in Brussels. And this one, I can say, is a little bit more -- it's not a religious school, but it's a little bit more religious. Even if some people from outside, they say it's a religious school because the boys, they had to wear the kippah in school. Everything was kosher at school. It's not the case in the other schools. Also, now it's kosher, but they didn't have to wear the kippah, for example. And so, they had religious course. They had Hebrew courses. That's the education that I wanted to give to 53:00my children. Afterward, what they are doing with it, it's their problem. But I wanted to give them what I didn't have when I was a child. So afterward, they went to tnoah. My oldest daughter, she was in the union of the Jewish students in Belgium. She was very active, like my second daughter -- and my son now -- he was active in other activities. He felt himself very Jewish, but didn't want to be really involved in Jewish organizations. And even he went a little bit in the Hanoar Hatzioni, like his sisters, but he didn't remain there. But my daughters, yes. So, they went to the Hanoar Hatzioni. They went to the Jewish student organizations. And one went to Israel.

CW:And how do you think your education or lack thereof, in the Jewish sense, as a child sort of affected you?

ME:It didn't affect me because I had always the feeling to be a Jew. And it's very important. It was all my life like that. I don't rem-- yes, I remember, I -- but I remember what my best friend's mother told me the first time when I went to them. I was maybe five or six years old. I went to them. I saw post-- I saw some objects on the walls. I told them, "Are you also Jewish?" And always, she remind me that. Because it was -- for her it was something very, very particular, very -- she was a bit surprised that I asked her this. So, I always 55:00felt Jew. So, I never had this problem of identity.

CW:Yeah. What made you feel Jewish?

ME:I don't know. I don't know. It's instinctive. I don't know. Because I can compare with my two brothers. My oldest brother was between one -- he was also in the Jewish organizations. He was a little bit -- he's still a little bit active, but from outside. And my older brother was always out of the Jewish community. He never was interested. He's feeling himself Jewish, but he was never interested in Jewish life. But he likes to come -- because we are 56:00organizing at home, in my home -- I do for my two bro-- even I'm the youngsters, but I'm doing a home, the seder for Pesach. I'm doing also for Rosh Hashanah everything. It's a problem, and it began also to be a little bit -- maybe intimate, but I remember what my uncle in Israel, my father's brother, told me. He told me that the day my mother will passed away, I will become the chief of the family. And that what happened.

CW:Yeah.

ME:It's very strange. It's very strange. So, all the Jewish festivals, my brothers are coming to me. And even my brother who is so far from the Jewish community, he likes so much to come to spend the Jewish holidays with us.

CW:And what are the particular ways you celebrate the holidays in your family?

ME:Fighting, like everyone. You know, every -- I think that even every Jew is meshugaas. Because, for Pesach, for example -- Rosh Hashanah it's the same, because it's not something particular about Rosh Hashanah. Even I -- I'm not shomer Sha-- that's also something I have to tell, because I'm not shomer Shabbat [Shabbos observant]. I'm not eating kosher. But I was a member of the Orthodox community in Brussels. Even I was in the steering committee. And they asked me to become the president of the Orthodox community in Brussels. I said, "Are you crazy? Are you crazy? I'm not shomer Shabbat. I am not eating kosher. Do you want that I am -- what will the people do?" We don't care. "No, I'm 58:00refusing absol-- even I don't know so much in religion also." So, it was a really crazy -- but also it's a sign that it's a problem to find a people to run some organ-- even a religious organization. It was really crazy. It was really crazy. But for Pesach, I don't eat one piece of bread. Everything -- I don't burn them, but I put it in a special room, where if what remain, like pasta and so -- I put it in a special room. Because I think it's one way to have this feeling. And, as I said, everybody is as meshugaas -- I remember -- once for 59:00Pesach I was -- when my parents-in-law were still living, my parents-in-law took my wife and my children; they went to Israel. Because they have a -- or they had -- a son living in Israel who became head of the sociology department of Tel Aviv University. He left the kibbutz for this. That's another story. Because it was also very difficult to go to college, to university, when you were in the kibbutz. I was invited time to time to friends for the Pesach period. And I went to friends. "And do you want to eat something?" They prepared me matzot with ham inside. That's one thing I don't eat: ham. I don't eat pork, even I don't eat 60:00kosher. But I told you, everybody, they have their own mesugaas. It's terrible. I remember once, I was in Italy for my business, and I have a friend -- he became a friend. He's a supplier, a supplier. And invite me at home -- it was also the Pesach period. And he told me, "You know, I" -- he want always -- I don't know if it was for the business. He thought always that he was a Jew. Invite me at home for dinner and told me, "You know, I know that it's Pesach, so I didn't put you bread on the table, but I eat pasta." Because he was preparing pasta. (laughs) And I -- and (UNCLEAR) had no choice. (laughs) I have another 61:00story, this one that my brother told me once. For Pesach he was invited for the seder by friends who really was religious. He came with a cake. Even though the story may be from thirty years old, always we are laughing because he is always telling this story when he came with his cake to this couple. My brother said, "When he saw the cake, I thought that he will die immediately." It was crazy.

CW:How do you see the way that your parents celebrated things and you celebrate things?

ME:You know, my parents were never religious people. Even they didn't came from a religious family. But with the time, my father became -- I can't say he became 62:00religious. But he went a little more often to the synagogues. For example, when he was under the seaside, they opened a small shtibl [small Hasidic house of prayer] there for Shabbat. And time to time he went there, and he took me with him. But I never had a really a religious home. But we were always observing Pesach. For example, my wife's side, they never respected Pesach. And it was a problem because my mother-in-law knew that if I'm going to her for the Pesach period, I didn't want to have any piece of bread on the table. Because she was 63:00eating bread on the (UNCLEAR). So, even I'm not religious, but that -- you know, I think you have to remain with something. And I think that I give this to my children, to my second daughter, who is living in Israel -- that's another problem, because in Israel -- I was in Pesach last year in Israel. She was eating bread. Because you find bread in Israel in Pesach, because you have the Arab bakeries. Even in some supermarkets, you are finding bread also in Israel. And she knows that I do not want to see one piece of bread on the table. And you see -- even in Israel you have the problem. When she was in Israel, she was in a kibbutz. For her Yom Kippur, they made a barbecue for -- it was in the ulpan. It 64:00was one of the best ulpan in Israel. But it was a kibbutz from the left. So, I knew that I heard -- it was not the only one -- for Yom Kippur they are making a barbecue.

CW:I guess I have two questions, so I want to make sure we don't run out of time. But first, are there any folk stories or songs that you remember in your family?

ME:(sighs) My mother was singing a lot of songs. You know the lullabies in Yiddish, of course, and also sometime in Polish. But all the songs, it's from when I was in the Jewish organi-- of course. It's always in my head, all the songs that I sang when I was a younger. It's all my life. Maybe for this less 65:00Yiddish, but all the Hebrew songs. They call it the song of the -- also they have a special expression to say all the -- from the oldies. I don't remember the expression. Also, they call it the song for the Olim Chadashim, for the newcomers in Israel, that they remain always with the old songs. But yes, this also a part of my life. And we dance all of the Israeli dance, too. Because I 66:00remain ten years in the young organization, and that -- you know, you feel that when you meet somebody in the street -- for us, of course, in Brussels, we have every -- immediate affinity if he was in the youth organization, in Jewish youth organization, because it's something special. Even it's not the same than you, because you have maybe five, six, the Zionist organ-- like, you have Hashomer Hatzair. You have the Habonim, Hanoar Hatzioni, I mean, Akiva, and so. But you have the feeling that you have something in common with all those, even they was not in the same organization that you were.

CW:Well, it's been great, but I would like to ask you if you have any advice for 67:00-- or any words of wisdom that you would share.

ME:I don't know. It's too difficult. I think it's too difficult. Because it's very -- it's a complexity. And I think that for the people -- even the way that you're running education of your children, for example, I realize that it not only depend of you. It depend of the person himself. Because my parents wanted to give -- even it was not a religious education to my brothers and me. We received quite the same education. Even my brothers, of course, they hide during the war. And it's a really traumatism till now. Till now. All the people who 68:00hide, they have till now a traumatism. All they have something really in the head. And you see we are three, and we have three different ways to feel our Judaism. And I see that with my children, too. My oldest daughter, she sent her kids also to Jew day school. All her friends are Jews. Most of them. Even as she was working in big companies, she remained friends with some of them. But I think most of them remained Jews. And I've to make a parallel with me. I've no friends remaining from my school. I was in non-Jewish day school. I had very 69:00good friends during the time when I was at school. When I left school, all my friends remaining was only Jews. Because all we have something in common. And time to time, I've met friends who were at school with me. I have nothing to tell to them. "How are you, what are you doing," and that's all. We have nothing to tell. And when I'm meeting my Jewish friends, we have so many thing to tell. That's a difference.

CW:Well, I wish we had a lot more time. But are there -- anything else you want to add before we --

ME:Yes, maybe I -- I'm sure that I forget something about -- yes, I forget something about my life also, that I was involved in the Zionist Federation of Belgium for also a long time, as treasurer and organizating some events there. Yes, I think that -- I'm sure that I forget a lot of things.

CW:Well, it's a whole life --

ME:Yes, because --

CW:-- in one hour, so -- (laughs)

ME:-- I was -- you know, it's very strange. It's a French cartoon, I don't know if you heard about, with a -- it was happening in the time of the Romans, Asterix Obelix. And one of them is very strong. And when they are attacked by the Romans, all the people, they are drinking a special drink to give them to strong. And one of the character, he doesn't need it, because when he was a 71:00child he fell in this preparation. So, it's for his life. And I think it's the same for -- with the Jewish life with me. I think that I fell in Jewish life when I was a child, and I can't get out of it.

CW:And you don't want to. (laughs)

ME:It is very strange -- of course I don't want to. You know, when my children were -- when they were children, when I came from work, we had supper together, and they always asked me, Where do you have a meeting this evening? They knew that I was always away for the Jewish life. And sometimes I tell them, No, I 72:00have to rest a little bit. So, time to time it happened -- two, three, four months, six months. And afterwards: No, I can't. I have to do something. Yes. I have another good example in the day school, Maimonian school, where my children went. One of the first time when I went to the -- it was an event for the children. They're organizing plays and so and so. And I went to the (UNCLEAR) -- "What can I do?" Because I can't stay -- I have to do something. "Sell tickets." "Okay. I'll sell tickets." For me, it was enough. And after a few years, I was 73:00in the steering committee for the school, also. It's difficult to explain, really difficult to explain why. Maybe it's a sickness. I don't know. I don't know. But I can't be somewhere and not doing something. I have to help. If I have to be a soldier, I am a soldier. If I have to be the leader, I am the leader. For me, the same. The fact I have to do something.

[END OF INTERVIEW]