ELLIOTT GOULD ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is March 19th, 2019. I'm here in Los Angeles, California with Elliott Gould. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.

ELLIOTT GOULD: What was that last part?

CW: The Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.

EG: Great.

CW: And do I have your permission to record?

EG: Yes.

CW: Thank you. Well, I thought we could start with a little bit of family background. Where does your family come from?

EG: (sighs) I'm second generation American. My parents were born here, and their parents, my grandparents -- and I only knew one of my grandparents. They came 1:00from the Ukraine, they came from Poland, and they came from Russia.

CW: And do you have any sense of what life was like for your grandparents' generation in Eastern Europe?

EG: I do have a sense because I find that a sense is a feeling. And I've read stuff and I never could really fathom, as a child, as an infant -- and I've been conscious the whole time about anti-Semitism and about prejudice and about that kind of thing. So, I had a sense of it. I think one of the older people may have 2:00even been involved with Cossacks. But again, I'm not totally sure. But I do have a sense of it. A sense of it. And, of course, to have a sense of it and then to have lived through World War II and to see what took place, yeah, and then to see where we are right now, it's very frightening.

CW: Do you know what the professions in your family historically were?

EG: I think there was a rabbi here and a rabbi there. And -- oh, when the family came through Ellis Island, the father of my father -- Elias, I'm named after 3:00him. And their name may have been Itzkowitz. And I think they sold gold and so they said, Now you're Goldstein. And so, up until the time I was about nine and I started to be in song and dance as a child -- and I'll tell you my thought of how that took place -- my name was changed. Not legally. It was changed to Gould. And I thought, Why? I thought, You don't think I think I have a future in this world or that world, do you? And I wasn't thrilled with Goldstein but that's who I was. But you are who you're known as. And then, all of my children are born Gould and I'm happy to stick with my children -- yeah, names and 4:00things. Yeah, no, I don't know. And my mother never knew her father. I believe his name was Abe Gross and he left very early. And my grandmother married Abe's friend, Meyer Raver. I thought he was my grandfather, but he was my step-grandfather. And he's the one who may have been involved or -- I don't know if people make -- I know we all make things up, but having gotten here, it means everything for me to be true.

CW: And then, your parents, what did they do for work?

EG: My father worked in the textile business. He worked in the garment center. 5:00My mother was very talented and she was the only one, prior to my daughter, Molly -- oh, my mother went to college and she could sew and she had a millinery store and then sometimes she worked. But so, when they sent me to song and dance school, I thought, What? I mean, you know? I was very shy. I was very repressed and inhibited and there were other young people like me who had been to song and dance school. So, I rationalized that. Perhaps that would be good if I memorized routines. Then perhaps I could learn to communicate through that which I had memorized. So, that's when I started with this business, not knowing that it was 6:00a business. But going further back to being three-and-a-half -- and I go further back. You could take me all the way back. The first conscious remembrance that I have is in late October of 1939. There were pictures taken, but I remember this like I'm sitting right here. I used to be, for a long time, afraid of the dark. Really, really afraid of the dark, which I understand now, 'cause I've worked a bit with the Freud Society. And so, one night in Brooklyn, where I lived at 6801 Bay Parkway -- and for my first eleven years, I slept in the same room -- not the same bed -- as my parents. And it was a Saturday night and I got up and when 7:00I came out of the lavatory, I realized that everything had been written and everything had been read and that fame and fortune, whatever that -- how do I know about that? There's no television. I don't even know -- maybe I'd seen a movie by then -- but that fame and fortune really had no meaning and if there wasn't peace and harmony, I was going to have a lot of problems. That was my second remembrance. My first was I didn't walk. And there was a family: there was the Posners, the Goldsteins, and the Greensteins. And Posner was three months older than me and I was three months older than Greenstein. And Greenstein was my best, best, best friend. We could be afraid together. And so, when Posner walked, Elliott didn't walk, and my parents were like, Oy, oy, 8:00what's wrong with Elliott? And then, I was with my parents on the boardwalk at Far Rockaway and I thought -- they were taking pictures, 'cause that's how I know the date. October 29th, I think, of 1939, I'm fourteen months old. I said, Don't worry -- to myself. Don't worry. I'll walk when I walk. Just because the younger one -- they're blood relations. They're related. And being there, I could stand but I was still standing by the railing on the boardwalk, looking through the railing over the beach, over the ocean to the horizon. And I felt my balance. I felt it. Oh, oh! Now walk! I couldn't walk if I had no balance. That 9:00was my first balance. And a great, great friend of mine, I was friendly with him, a great man named John Wooden. Do you know the name? He wrote something that you can look up: "John Wooden's Pyramid for Success." He was an iconic, if not the number one, coach on a scholastic level. No, he was selected as the number one coach in any sport in the history of America. John Wooden. And he's one of two people I wanted to meet. And his son, Michael, is a member of my union, the Screen Actors Guild. And so, we were able to arrange -- and I was waiting for the coach to come in in a coffee shop in Tarzana near where he 10:00lived. And I was waiting for him, and he walked up to me and told me immediately that he had been an English teacher in Indiana, where he came from. And then, he said, "And the most important word in the English language is love. And the second most important word" -- and I thought, I didn't know there was another word -- "the second most important word is balance." And I had him for three years that we were friends.

CW: Can you take me back to that house on Bay Parkway?

EG: Sixty-eight-oh-one Bay Parkway, the apartment?

CW: Yeah.

EG: Brooklyn-four, New York. The ZIP code was a four, sure. Right around the corner, 'cause I couldn't cross the street by myself. It was the Marboro Theatre. It's where I saw my first movies. This was pre-television. But I'd sit like this, listening to the radio. I loved the radio, to listen to stories on the radio.

CW: What kind of stories?

EG: Oh, "The Lone Ranger," "Captain Midnight." On Saturday morning, something called "Let's Pretend," at ten o'clock, with stories.

CW: Can you describe the apartment?

EG: Sure. Well, we're on the ground floor. It was the furthest back on the left side of the apartment house. It was right next to -- the apartment beyond the superintendent and you walk in. And then, there's a living room and a little dinette -- oh, smaller than what I have here. Then, there was a toilet and one bedroom where I slept.

CW: And what was Jewish about your home?

EG: My parents, my family, the tradition and ritual. It's the only time I 12:00remember my mother lighting candles, on Shabbos. It's the only time she would light candles. And oh, my God, one time -- and so, my father had a younger sister and a younger brother. My aunt, Pearl. She was my godmother. And my mother wanted to cook. My mother was Jewish, but we didn't keep kosher. And my mother wanted to cook Thanksgiving dinner. My aunt Pearl told me this. And my grandma, that's the only one I knew, grandma Esther, the mother of my father and Pearl and Adolph, they said, No, no, no, we don't -- 'cause they were kosher. And my mother said, "I'll do it just the way you like it. I'll do it -- I have 13:00special pots and pans and dishes." So, my mother made turkey and everything. And my mother said, "How was it?" And they said, Oh, it was delicious. We loved it. And my mother said, "You see? Butter doesn't hurt." And they almost died. Oh, my God, can you imagine? Everything, I lived -- no, I lived upstairs. We moved to the third floor just before I was a bar mitzvah. And I could show you, I have my bar mitzvah album. I'll share it with you if you like. What was it? Oh, and my father was drafted in 1944 into the army. And I stayed with my mother until my father came home.

CW: How long was he gone?

EG: The better part of a year. And then, he got pneumonia while he was there and 14:00he also broke his ankle. And so, they kept him, and his whole unit was wiped out at the Battle of the Bulge. And I said to my father, "That's the smartest thing you ever did. You got pneumonia and you broke your ankle."

CW: And what were your parents like?

EG: Beautiful and handsome. Young. Very young. They were the youngest ones. I don't think they understood one another very well. And I also don't think they understood themselves. And that took me forever. Took me forever. I couldn't comprehend it. I didn't know. But Bernie, Bernard, he was a good Lindy dancer. 15:00And at one point, my father told me that he was asked to be the president of the temple, but he didn't want to do it because he wanted to go out and he didn't want to do that. And he could be an athlete -- and he didn't finish high school. And I didn't know that, but his brother told me after my father was gone and I was, at first, a little resentful. "Why are you telling me that?" I never had a brother or a sister, so I didn't understand that. But then, I thought, Oh, let me call the high school in Brooklyn. By that time, I had somewhat let myself be known in this show business. And so, I called New Utrecht High School in Brooklyn. And they knew me and they told me they had my father's records and that when I came to New York, if I came to Brooklyn, they would share my 16:00father's records. And sure enough, I think it may have been 1931, he was seventeen years old and he left school. He had to go to work or he went to work. And at that point, he had tried to elope with someone before he met my mother. And that didn't work. But they showed me his records, 'cause I took a train into Brooklyn. I take a train when I'm there. And sure enough, he wasn't an academic and he wasn't intellectual. But they said if he served in World War II, which he did, and had an honorable discharge, which he did, that would warrant getting the diploma which he never got. But I had to produce it. It's still here. I was 17:00here then. And so, my mother -- even though my parents were divorced, my mother kept everything and I was able to get my father's honorable discharge back to New Utrecht. And after seventy-one years -- I think it was seventy-one years -- they sent me my father's diploma, which I have here someplace, which to me is more than any kind of Academy Award. Makes me feel -- it was just one of the best, best things to do, 'cause he never told me that he left school.

CW: And what about your mother?

EG: Well, my mother never knew her father. And it took a lifetime -- and I have a picture of the mother of my mother. Oh, I'm so glad you allow me to share this 18:00with you. (sighs) After a lifetime, my mother mentioned her father to me. After a lifetime! Abe Gross. You heard the phone call. And she said to me -- I was on the phone with her. Lucy, her name is. She said, "My father came to visit me once." I said, "What?" She said, "Yeah." She said she was about two years old or two-and-a-half and he came and he put a ring on her finger. Oh, and he picked her up and threw her up in the air and caught her. And I felt like -- that was the first time she'd ever mentioned to me. And the mother of my mother, Ida, she 19:00married Meyer Raver and I never met her. But now, let me tell you -- go (whooshing sound) right up to the moment. I have a cousin here. His name is Moses. He's three years old. His great-grandfather was the brother to the mother of my mother. And Moses is three years old and they live in town. We've recently met. Moses and I really understand one another. Nothing intellectual. We understand. I understand Moses and Moses understands me. Mentally, I'm a little bit younger than Moses. He's three now. And that's the truth. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. That's what we're talking about. That's what all -- it's just great.

CW: Now, did you celebrate all the holidays growing up?

EG: Yeah. Well, I have friends who are very Orthodox. I'm un-Orthodox, but it's very interesting to me. And we especially would celebrate Pesach and Hanukkah and then my father would go to shul on holidays. But for me, I think you got to do it all the time, in every way. It's a way of life, but I'm glad -- I mean, I would never, never forego my roots and I've got a lot to learn. But I got here.

CW: And as a kid, was there a holiday that you particularly liked?

EG: Oh, sure. I loved Pesach. And my grandma would cook. And my aunt Celie. And 21:00I would ask the Four Questions and that was like a show. I would sweat, be so nervous. Mah nishtanah halaylah hazeh [Hebrew: What makes this night different]. Oh my God, gefilte fish and potato pancakes. And of course, Hanukkah, that was great. And then, the other holidays, and many -- I mean, oh, oh, really. And then, of course, I meet people. You know, I meet people. And also, I mean, for me -- celebrity, my take on celebrity is simply that some of us have to make a bigger fool of ourselves than others, that's all. And so, yeah, I understand now. When I started with "Fiddler on the Roof," and (sighs) I just recently 22:00listened to it. And the first musical composition on it is "Tradition." And sometimes, we are drilled and taught to memorize things and to know. But to accept it, to be it, oh my goodness. So, now, I listen to it and I understand the purpose of it, the purpose of tradition. Unbelievable. It's so good. It took all this time. When my first wife, when Barbra was doing "Funny Girl" in New York at the Winter Garden Theatre, Jerry Robbins, who took "Funny Girl" over and brought it in -- let's see, it’s a wonderful man who used to be married to Ruth Gordon -- Garson Kanin, his name was, who was the director, but then they 23:00brought Jerry in to bring the show in. And so, then he had a table read of "Tevye," which became "Fiddler on the Roof." And he asked me to come and read a part, read the part of Perchik, the revolutionary in it. And so, Zero wasn't there but Jack Gilford read Tevye. And there were actors around the table and Bock and Harnick exhibited -- they did the score. And so, when it came to "Now I Have Everything," Jerry Robbins came behind me and whispered in my ear. He said, "And there'll be another song for you." And I thought, That's very nice and kind of you, but who said I believe that I can do justice to it? It's such a great song. I can act it. And so, Bert Convy had a great voice and I didn't do it, I didn't -- but that was great. But "Fiddler on the Roof," oh, my God. And you 24:00would know right now, Joel Grey has an enormously successful Yiddish "Fiddler on the Roof," yeah.

CW: Speaking of Yiddish, did you hear it much growing up?

EG: Oh, that was interesting, only when they didn't want me to know. They would say “loz im [leave him]” or something. But they didn't -- oh, almost everyone in the family spoke a little bit of Yiddish. I didn't know any. But I would say, “Is 'mishpokhe [family]' Yiddish?” Yeah. Mishpokhe, oh, God. No, I know, in preparing to be here and talk with you and in relation to the limited formal education that I had, I feel everything.

CW: Did you go to kheyder [traditional religious school] or Hebrew school?

EG: I did. I even was there when the State of Israel -- so, that was -- what was 25:00that, 1948, ’49? Yeah, I was there. I cheated on a test. I mean, I got all the answers right because I cheated. And then, when I didn't cheat, I couldn't get anything right. I understand now. I'm not proud of that but, I mean, it's great, yeah.

CW: When your father was drafted, how much did you understand about what was going on with the war?

EG: Well, I was maybe six years old, six-and-a-half. And my father left on a Sunday morning or something like that. And I was in bed with my mother. I didn't want to be in bed with my mother, to take my father's place at the age of six. And I would hear things I couldn't know. And even the idea of anti-Semitism, I didn't know, I didn't understand. And like I said, at three-and-a-half, if 26:00there's no peace and harmony, I'm gonna have a lot of problems. And I studied American history a couple of times, 'cause I did well. Things I could relate to and with. How much did I understand? I didn't understand me. And having worked and having been chosen to be the first one of us to work with Ingmar Bergman, it was great, it was perfect because he cast me as a misplaced person, somebody who understood nothing. I played his character. And so, I read recently that he was quoted as having said that I was difficult to work with. And he's no longer living, so I couldn't ask him. And not only was I not, I was able to find a 27:00YouTube -- an interview that we expected me to be at and I wasn't. This is after we made the picture. Ingmar Bergman, Bibi Andersson, Dick Cavett. And on the interview, 'cause I was able to access it, he asks about me, and Dick Cavett asks about me and how I was. And Bergman said from the first day I showed up, it was obvious to the whole family and the whole crew and him that I'm a team player. I work for us, I work with us. And so, going back to that quote that I was difficult to work with -- and there are people who are so envious and jealous and resentful –- resentful of our mind. But I was impossible to do 28:00business with, and the reason I was impossible to do business with was that I didn't understand me and I'm totally committed to us, to the family. And so, it would be so irresponsible for me to be doing business on the outside. If I don't understand me, if I don't know what I am, then whatever. And now that I do, I understand, but I can't change anything. So, again, the question was: Was I aware? It was scary. There would be newsreels in the movies. No television. I listened. It was beyond understanding, yeah. Beyond understanding.

CW: Do you remember when you sort of learned about the Holocaust and the camps and things?

EG: You know, even when I saw newsreels, I couldn't comprehend that. Couldn't 29:00comprehend it. And then, my friend, Eva Kor, she more than professes -- how do you say, "tikkun olam [Hebrew: repair of the world]"? And I said to her, "I can accept it. Do whatever you want with me or to me. But to forgive? I don't know that I can." But I think the beginning of forgiveness is acceptance. That's divine.

CW: So, to go back to Brooklyn, what neighborhood were you living in? Can you 30:00tell me a little bit about what it was like in the ’40s?

EG: Oh, sure, 6801 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn-4, New York, that little apartment. Well, there were kids, there were guys there. The shul -- I mean, it's West Ninth Street, between Bay Parkway and Avenue O. And if you then walk to the corner, and I couldn't cross the street. And if I was going around the corner, if I went -- I couldn't even think of going around two corners. I'm lost! I don't know -- where am I? What's direction? And so, there was the shul there. And my father would go to the shul and I would go with him sometimes, if not all the time. And there were kids on the streets and we would play. As a matter of fact, one of the street games that we played was called three feet to Germany. And you cross the gutter, cross the street, 'cause there were cars there. We didn't get a car. We didn't have a car to begin with. We would take the subway, 31:00the Sea Beach Line. And on Saturday nights, usually they would take me to the movies. I remember some pictures that I saw. And after the movies on Saturday and we're up late, they'd take me into Jack and Irv's and we'd get a black-and-white ice cream soda. I also had a charge account where I could go and charge a sandwich or something. That was unbelievable. Because PS 247, where I went to kindergarten and the first six grades, that was -- you cross Bay Parkway. I couldn't cross it myself. And then, you go on to, I guess, West Eighth Street or just the street -- one street closer to -- and you don't see the ocean because we're in Bensonhurst, and walk a block and there's PS 247, 32:00where I went to school.

CW: And what kind of people were in that neighborhood then?

EG: Jewish, Italian, Syrian –- that was about it. Didn't see many African Americans. But Jewish, Italian, and Syrian.

CW: And who were your friends?

EG: Well, Stevie Greenstein, Eddie Posner. And then, in the house, Donny Green lived in the house. Donny Kramer lived across the street. And then, there were triplets. I think Elliott Levine lived there, too. Oh, the Green something. I could find out, call Donny Kramer and find out what the name of the triplets were 'cause there were -- but there was one fraternal triplet, he was Mikey, but then there was, I think, Robert and Elliott. There was an Elliott. And in 1945, the Chicago Cubs played the Detroit Tigers in the World Series and I bet -- I 33:00mean, I used to have a compulsion 'cause we had no money and you know in terms of money and that -- I'm an idealist, but I've really been working to be a realist. And so, I do believe that the ultimate ideal is the concept of God. And I met John Lennon twice. I don't worship anyone or anything but I am completely committed to us. It's just what I am and it's a great privilege, as I told you about. It's more than just tradition, yeah. And so, I bet a nickel and I lost. And Mikey asked my mother for the money. And in a movie I made with George Segal, who I'm going to do an interview for -- I'm going to talk about George Segal on Sunday -- I said in the movie, "California Split," "I've been trying to 34:00get even ever since." He asked my mother to give him the nickel. Oh, my God. And then, I had a water gun and my water gun was so old and rusty and it was like a spring. And if there's a puddle of water and there are puddle of waters, you suck up the water into the water gun and it has one really good shot. And this is just before plastic water guns came in. And then, you have another shot and then, pfft, nothing. And these two or three other kids had plastic water guns, which shot a million times. And I'm soaking wet and my mother came out. She was so enraged that she got them to come into the house. I said, "Don't! Mom, don't do that! We're playing together. It's okay." And then, she then took them into our apartment, filled the basin in the bathroom with water and dunked their head in it. And I said, "Oh, no! How could you do that?" I'm a little young for them 35:00and we're not gonna be friends, but it's nice to be accepted. I don't mind getting wet.

CW: Yeah.

EG: I'll tell you something more: Eddie Posner was three months older than me. And I was conceived in his family's house in Far Rockaway. I think it was Beach 126th Street or something like that. But Eddie was at our house and both of us were in diapers and they put him in the same crib as me. We're in the same crib and we both filled our diapers. They're full. And there was nobody there. They were in another room. They d-- leave us alone. And now, we discover ourselves there, both have -- Oh, look at, we got the same stuff. And then, talk about being an artist, I put my hands in it and we both painted the wall with it. That's what it was like.

CW: I wanted to ask, how did you celebrate Hanukkah growing up?

EG: Well, I have several menorahs here. I mean, I just loved it. It wasn't -- sometimes Hanukkah gelt, being that we didn't -- my father worked. But celebrate Hanukkah -- I mean, and also, there's Christmas at that time. And I remember my parents sometimes were a little volatile and didn't necessarily get along. And I knew to say, Please, Elliott, don't get in between them. Don't give them anything to argue about. And we're talking Hanukkah and now I'm eight years old and I want my Christmas presents and I couldn't contain myself. And I was really upset and my father, I remember my father said, "Isn't it time to tell him? Isn't it time to tell him that that's" -- but I wanted my presents. And so, they 37:00went out shopping for me. And Sylvia Greenstein, Stevie Greenstein's mother, sat with me, and I remember telling her how bad I felt. I didn't want to be the cause of my parents fighting and I felt like I was out of control. I was so, so -- oh, I should have the word. Oh, it's an interesting word. Oh, well, it's not so good in terms of that. And she was so nice. Sylvia and Moe were great.

CW: In terms of what was around you, were you exposed to sort of Jewish culture as you were growing up?

EG: Well, yeah, occasionally. They'd take me to the theater and occasionally 38:00they'd take me to Yiddish theater because I didn't --

CW: What do you remember?

EG: What's that?

CW: What do you remember from Yiddish theater?

EG: That I didn't know anything. And I thought, What is the difference? It's not just language. So, what is it representing so I could know anything? And yet, we -- babies know a lot. So, I didn't know and I couldn't know. And I'm glad I told you about the Thanksgiving. And I told you, the shul was on the corner across the street and that was interesting. And I told you that I was going to Hebrew 39:00school when Israel was becoming a state.

CW: What do you remember about that, ’48?

EG: Well, that people were fighting, the Palestinians and Jews, and they were fighting. And also, I felt in my heart if we knew how to listen to one another, if we could get ourselves calm enough to be in the same place at the same time, we should be able to -- why can't we work things out? What is it? What is it? At the end of "2001" -- 'cause I knew Stanley Kubrick a little bit -- but I worked with the assistant director of his, and I also had met Arthur Clarke and they had sent me and Barbra the galleys and the treatment for "2001" before they made 40:00the picture. And I said to Derek Cracknell, who also worked on "Gandhi" -- and he showed me the call sheet for the funeral of Gandhi with 250,000 extras. And I said, "I understand. I believe I understand just about all of '2001.' But at the end, where you see an embryo and a bubble with a little baby, a boy, what did that represent?" And he said to me, Derek Cracknell, he said, "It's the little feller coming back to disarm the planet." Like I said, I'm an idealist and –- I leave it all to us and you, yeah. I never give up. But that's great. Do you know 41:00the movie, by any chance -- and, of course, that Australian actor, he was horrid but he was very interesting. What was the name of the picture? I can't think of it. It's okay.

CW: It'll come back, maybe. So, personally, what did you think about being Jewish as a kid?

EG: Oh, I didn't necessarily know or understand. I knew something but I didn't necessarily understand what it meant or what it means. I'm learning now. I mean, I really am, like I said about tradition and the purpose of it. So, I would never -- and that's what I mean. When they said, Goldstein, you're now Gould, I 42:00said, What? I mean, please.

CW: Can you tell me more about that? How did that come about?

EG: I was doing a television show at NBC. I was about nine or ten, and we had our last rehearsal, and what's funny is it's maybe the same studios that "Saturday Night Live" is broadcast from. And it was called "Country Style." And we went out, we did our last rehearsal, and came back. We're gonna do the show and that's when they told me -- they said something that I'm now going to be Gould. My mother was asking, "How could you -- what? No, no, I'm Goldstein," not even knowing that it was Itzkowitz and not even knowing -- I didn't even know Moses at that time. And my thought was, I know it sounds very ethnic, so I was aware that there was prejudice and people would compensate for that. But I thought, No, let me be, which is so interesting. Let me be who I am. Let me be 43:00what I am. I mean, I'll find it. I won't give up. I'll find it, yeah. And this is something -- not to be chauvinistic, but in relation to the intelligence and the accomplishments, what we do, it's for everyone, like I say. But I'm just putting it together.

CW: What's your Hebrew name?

EG: Eliyahu ben Benzion.

CW: And what do you remember about your bar mitzvah?

EG: Oh, my God, I remember everything! And I had Rabbi Philip Harris Singer, my rabbi. He gave me a record. I don't know if I still have it, but it was like 44:00acetate, and I learned my haftorah. I mean, I memorized it, but I didn't know -- and then sometimes, 'cause we're very friendly -- I mean, I'm -- to go right back to it and tell me what I was saying, what I was doing. I do remember that right there, in the synagogue -- and my father was sitting over there, my mother was over there, and when I finished and I could go down, I remember I went to my mother and then I felt a little bad in relation to my father but I -- going where my mind was taking me, to embrace my mother. And then, of course, my father. My father was so proud, and I find that a grain of pride is good for the 45:00heart. But no more than that. It's blinding. It's blinding, yeah. And pride also, I'm told, is supposedly the first deadly sin. I can understand that. I was asked to -- and I've done quite a bit in Rome -- and I was told that I could have an audience with the Pope. And I thought -- and Groucho Marx was my friend. We were very good friends. And I thought that might be fun. They said, But you have to kiss his ring and you have to kneel. And I said, "I can't." And now, if you tell me, if we tell me that it's something that must be done, if I could do something, then that's okay 'cause I made it and I got back. But I say, "I couldn't do that."

CW: So, I know you started out really young with --

EG: No younger than any other one of us.

CW: So, can you explain how you started at the song and dance school, why you started there?

EG: Well, I think I mentioned that to you. I was very shy and repressed and inhibited. And there were others like me and then I thought -- I was taken to the song and dance school in Manhattan. It's not what I had in mind. And I think Freddy was the name of the guy who said, "What do you want to do?" And I'm thinking now. This is maybe ’46 or ’47. I'm just starting out, about eight years old or something. Or nine. And I thought, What would I say? I don't know anything. That I'd like to play the trumpet so if I blow my horn, the walls will come down? And said, No. Want to be a cowboy? That sounds weird. And then, I thought -- and they said, Well, how would you like to tap dance? And then, like 47:00I said, well, if I have to memorize routines, then perhaps I'd learn to communicate through that which I had memorized, for instance. I don't ever misunderstand. Never. I mean, that's one of my greatest fears, to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. It says, "Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings, admiring, asking, and observing, there we enter the realm of art and science." That's Albert Einstein. There's another one that was a little more complicated. And Einstein is all -- I played Einstein once. Einstein has also said, "It's not that I'm so smart it's just I take more time with problems." And to take all 48:00this time, to take -- can't take -- what's time? And so, there's this one by this guy Rilke, he's German: "Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves." Do you know it? Oh, my God. "Do not now seek the answers that cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them." And the point is to live everything. Wow, and it goes further. It's great. Love the questions now and perhaps some -- let's see, perhaps someday you'll find it, you'll get it, yeah. So, I'm getting it and still in the process, which is so interesting. So interesting, never to give up.

CW: Now, did you ever perform in Jewish venues?

EG: In what?

CW: Jewish venues, as a kid?

EG: Jewish venues?

CW: Like --

EG: Well, sure.

CW: -- the Catskills or country --

EG: Oh, sure! I used to sing and dance --

CW: -- club dates?

EG: -- at the Catskills. We used to go to different places. And then, we'd go to a hotel which was like a family hotel but didn't quite feel it. They had money and we didn't and I think we used to pay to stay. For me, I used to come here and live here. Everybody come. And that's always been my dream, to have a place where there can be a roof over everybody's head. So, I prefer -- we went to a place -- oh, we went to a kokhaleyn [bungalow colony, lit. "cook alone"]. Do you know? Of course you know this. And so, I went to a kokhaleyn. And I guess in some ways, we were snobs. A little bit. And then, there was a place called the 50:00Luxor Manor and I even horseback rode there. And there's pictures. And everybody came and that's where I start to sing and dance. I've got all kinds of pictures that I've really got to go through. They're all here. And then, the Evans in Loch Sheldrake. And supposedly, my father's family was there, which is so interesting 'cause I remember when I brought Barbra there with me and they got excited 'cause they recognized her brilliance. And so, I would sing and dance. And also, I did it on "Saturday Night Live." I hosted six "Saturday Night Lives" and I did another one where we started the Five-Timers Club. And the first show, I sang, "Let Yourself Go," Irving Berlin. And then, I went into "Crazy Rhythm" 51:00and I then also danced. And Paul Shaffer was playing the piano for me and it was not programmed that I would introduce him but I did. I mean, I said -- Paul Shaffer, he's the only other one onstage with me. He told me he'll always, always remember that 'cause I introduced him. And then, the second show -- and that show they used as a representative show for the first season and it won an Emmy. And I, for me, to keep up -- I didn't even stay up that late to watch the show, yeah. I hadn't been with anyone, with anyone, in almost any way until Barbra and I started working together, yeah.

CW: How did you meet?

EG: I was in the chorus of "Irma la Douce" and auditioned for the lead in "I Can Get It for You Wholesale." And I was told, You'll never get it, they'll never give it to you. I had no experience. I mean, I almost never even talked. And 52:00then, they cast me. What? Really? I mean, I really worked hard, but so what? I'll show you a picture of it, too. It's one of the few times that Al Hirschfeld, who was the cartoonist -- there are a couple of his things up there -- did two originals. One for me and one for Barbra. And now, they ask me to come and sit with all of them as they're casting the show, having the final callbacks. And there are people there, and now here's somebody called Barbra Streisand. And the man who wrote the original novel, the book that became "I Can Get It for You Wholesale," which was a movie before it was a musical, his name was Jerome Weidman. And Barbra was performing onstage and he turned to me and he said, "What do you think of her?" I said, "She's brilliant!" And she's presenting herself just like how I think and feel about me. She's really scared, 53:00I mean, and she's so inhibited in her way. She's brilliant. So then, after you finish the rehearsal -- I mean, the audition, she did "Miss Marmelstein," she did "When a Bee Lies Sleeping in the Palm of Your Hand" from "House of Flowers," and she did one other song, which may have been "I'll tell the man in the street and everyone I meet that you and I are sweethearts." And then, they said, Thank you. The audition's over. Next person. And she had not had very much experience. She had done one Off-Broadway play. And then, she said, "Would somebody call me?" And she recited her number and, I mean, I had to really drill myself to have it so when I went back to the Alvin Theatre, which became the Neil Simon Theatre where we -- doing "Irma la Douce," I called her and I said, "I thought 54:00you were great and brilliant." And she said, "I'm singing at some place tonight. Come and see me." I said, "No, no, no, no. When we're -- I think you're gonna be in the show. I think you're gonna get it." And that's how that was. And we didn't appear in anything else. We've never been onscreen together. That would be great. No one has ever seen us at the same time. And her current husband, Jim Brolin, who's nice, good guy, I saved his life in a movie called "Capricorn One." And his son, Josh, came to say hello to me when I was at the theater to see -- I think it may have been -- I don't know who was doing it. "Art," a play called "Art." And Josh came to say hello to me, to introduce himself to me. But Jim said to me, "You're a better agent for me than my own agent." And I thought, 55:00Do you think that makes me happy? Barbra and I never -- we didn't do business together. I mean, she’s -- yeah, I really -- and I can never put love in the pa-- I can never -- love, that's it. Now, we'll see if I can find me.

CW: When you started having your own relationships and family, what kind of Jewishness did you bring into that? What decisions did you make?

EG: All my children know they're Jewish and we're Jewish. I mean, I bar mitzvahed my grandson. I say -- to tell you what it's about, and this is not conventional, but I bar mitzvahed him.

CW: Wait, how did you do that?

EG: We sat down alone and I explained it to him in a way, in relation to the transition of becoming a man and the meaning of it and how we make things of such meaning and such significance. And although this was and is in so many ways so primitive -– so primitive -- but really down, down, down, down deep. The greater part of un-Orthodox is Orthodox. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I more than appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

CW: What has been your relationship to organized religion or sort of -- over 57:00your --

EG: This is fairly new for me, because I believe that it's discipline. And I mean that that's to discipline. The relationship is something that is inherited in terms of the entire family and every generation up to now. But I believe that religion, to me, as I said, is discipline and I believe in discipline. But nobody could tell me that one is better than any other one. It would be what works for us, what works for you, and what we have to share. And my relationship 58:00is to have an open mind and to really be as humble as possible when I'm with people who are far more active in it and its way of life. So, humility is a great asset. And even what you're saying right now, I mean, I'm sincere.

CW: Well, I wanted to ask a little bit more about your work. When you were getting into the business, did you have role models, people you admired or aspired to emulate?

EG: Well, there were also cartoons. There was the "New York Daily Mirror" and 59:00the "New York Daily News" and "Dick Tracy" was in one and "Joe Palooka" was in another. And there was "The Lone Ranger," which I'd listen to. And as far as seeing artists or seeing performers, I couldn't imagine me doing that. But I could relate. And when I was twelve, just before I was a bar mitzvah, I got a job 'cause -- and they'd come, people would come up and look for kids. And even the idea of talent -- to me, to be happy would be the great gift, to be happy. So, I didn't know about talent. I knew that, whether I understood it or not, my mother was frustrated. My father, he could play handball and he could dance, 60:00ballroom dance. And so, I remember that, a couple of times, we used to look at "Life" magazine. And we'd have a couch or a chair, like an easy chair. But they were old and they were used and so they'd use "Life" magazines to prop up the cushions. And so, when Al Jolson died, I felt really bad. And I didn't know Al Jolson. He was way, way before me. When W.C. Fields died, I also felt very sad. And then, there were certain -- when Franklin Roosevelt died, I remember I was in the movies. I came out and I didn't know about his political thing. My cousin, the grandfather of Moses, said there was a real question about him not letting boats with us come here, so again -- and the guy who called me later, he 61:00knows a lot, the guy who directed "The Chosen," Jeremy Paul Kagan. So, I like Roy Rogers. But that was all also -- and we had a dog, Ginger. And Stevie Greenstein and some kids there -- and I could play ball -- I didn't know or understand anything. But I remember it. I remember. And therefore, to be able to orchestrate, to be able to have the life consciously together as one and be able to understand and make adjustments -- and also, for the very first time, I recognized boundaries I didn't know. Dick Cavett, who -- we talked, we talked, and we talk. And he said to me, "You're one of two, maybe three people I've ever 62:00known who's made it." And I said, "By that, are you talking about transcending identity and transcending in this business, in this world?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, one of us always has to. We always have to, otherwise we become things. We have to continue to evolve." And so, understanding it and therefore even the idea of not changing -- I'm very friendly with very Orthodox people. Rabbi [Kunan?] is my friend. I do his shows. It's great. Oh, that picture behind you, I'm there at a place, yeah, I'll show you. It was a -- actually a halfway house that's nonsectarian, but it's fundamentally a Lubavitcher and where people 63:00come to live and to get well. And so, I had Whoopi Goldberg come and do that and then I had to make a movie with her. I had to play her agent. I said, "But that's fine." I mean, great. You don't even have to help me if there's something I can do. I mean, that's great.

CW: And then, once you started working, did you connect with other Jewish people more than anyone else? Or was that not -- I'm just curious whether your identity played into your working life early on.

EG: I understand you. I understand that. (pauses) I have a friend, his name is 64:00Charlie Brill. He was my first friend I made on the outside, and he's another only child. And we would talk to one another in Jewish accents. And also Herb Gardner, who wrote "A Thousand Clowns." He and I would talk to one another with Jewish accents. And it's interesting to me. I'd done this film called "American History X." And I had to read for it, which I didn't mind. And so, we cast me as a Jewish educator and I wanted to face this fabulous actor, Ed Norton, who spews 65:00anti-Semitic things in this guy's -- and I wanted to see what it felt like. And it's funny, Ed, who's a very serious actor, said to the director and I, he said, "He's the only one that I know that's not afraid of me." So, somebody said to me, they stopped me on the street and they said something about, "Oh, yeah, I played Michael Jordan, for homeless and abused children, horse, around the world, and one-on-one. Michael Jordan. And he didn't win every game." And I said, "It would make sense that a Jew would beat Michael Jordan." And I have no delusions to play a genius like that. But we play honestly. I mean, it's honest, and I have no delusions whatsoever. I'm not competing, I'm just trying to do the best I can. And I said to this fellow, I said, "It would make sense that a Jew 66:00would beat Michael Jordan around the world." And he said, "You're not a Jew." I said, "That's enough, whatever you choose to think." And then he said to me, "Your first wife Barbra's a Jew." I said, "Whatever you think, but I won't engage with you. I won't engage with you." And then, when -- I guess it was we had something -- the ADL had a meeting in relation to "American History X." And then, some guy, very, very -- extremist came and professed, "Why did you change your name? Why'd you let them change your name? And why did you let him talk to you like that onscreen?" I said, "That was in the script. I was employed to play the part that was written, to juxtapose that." So, I understand that. Eva Kor. 67:00Where was I? On Friday, I went to the Synagogue for the Performing Arts here. I was asked to go and see it and see the people. And it was very interesting. I really enjoyed it very much, meeting people. And I understand, but I don't really act.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW: Do you ever hear Yiddish?

EG: Oh, I have a great thing of Mandy Patinkin's, of Yiddish, and also, did I -- sure. I mean, different -- and Lebedeff. I loved listening to him. I would buy 68:00them and give them away. "Rumenye, rumenye, rumenye [Romania, Romania, Romania]," oh, my God. "Mame, mame," oh, yeah. And the song that I sang, did you ever hear the score of "I Can Get It for You Wholesale"? Oh, my God. So, I sing a song in it. One of the songs, my part is such a hard part. And the father is never mentioned once in it. Not once. And then, I had an idea to do a film musical of it and to start before the play started and I would be at the open grave of my father and there'd be a standup, a piano right at the open grave with Groucho Marx sitting there with a nightshirt and a night thing. And I have to sing, "That's the Way Things Are," which is the first song in it. But there's a song which is -- it goes like, "What's the use of talking? It's as plain as plain, just from where I got my good sense and my brain. All my better 69:00qualities, my looks and charm, from a certain married lady that I love to pieces, my mom." And “Mame, mame.” I did that once before for Arthur Laurents, who cast me. And before he died, he called me. He wrote "The Way We Were." His name was Levine and we lived on the same street later on, when I was in Greenwich Village. And I said, "Hi, Levine!" And he said, "Hi, Goldstein." I 70:00said, "I didn't mean any harm when I said that! It's just who we were, you know? I mean, it's not like that. I mean, this is my nature." So, he called me and he said, "How could you still be so good after everything that you've been through? After everything that you've been through, how could you still be so good?" I said, "Well, thank you for the compliment but I don't think that way. And to answer your question, my mother never gave up. I have no choice." So, to break tradition and to do things that sometimes are not -- I know and I understand. I do. I do.

CW: Has there been a piece of art, a Jewish writer or piece of art that's been 71:00particularly meaningful to you?

EG: I remember that when my father would be very -– would look -- 'cause he went to shul and temple -- and I believe. And even now knowing something, I believe. And when Ingmar Bergman published me in "Life" as being tragic for not doing classical work in relation to my natural gifts and he published Shakespeare, Ibsen, Strindberg, and Moliere, I felt, I'm very flattered, but I didn't come here to repeat something that somebody else did. I came here to find myself so I 72:00could understand all of this, to really understand it. And then I thought, Oh, when I played the Palace, twelve years old, I met one of my teachers, a -- incorrigible, transient Irishman named Billy Quinn, who took me on. And he wanted to give me time in relation to timing, to understand what time is and what timing is. Sounds right, and so he was pounding me and pounded me and pounding me. I mean, I didn't do it with Hebrew and who knows? You say 120? I don't mind. That's not so far away. It's half of my age. And so, I wept and he didn't treat me like a baby. And he broke -- he got through to me, being that 73:00the timing is perfect. It's always now. It's always now. So, that was really -- and then, later on, he gave me a dictionary and I thought, I don't know what my first word would be. And I didn't even know. I didn't know what to look for. And I still have it. I'll show it to you. And so, I opened it up, not knowing what I was looking for, and stumbled on faith. Faith, which is defined as an unquestioning belief. And I thought, Well, it's a great idea, it's a great concept, and so if I can do it, anyone can do it. And so, I then went out and inspected the universe, looked at everything. And what could I accept with an unquestioning belief being conditioned, not being taught to question everything? 74:00An unquestioning belief? I am living. I'm alive. I found my faith. Yeah, if I can, anyone can. And -- thanks.

CW: Well, I have just one or two more questions.

EG: Anything! They're great, you know.

CW: But is there anything that you, in thinking about doing this interview or thinking about Yiddish or doing this interview till now, would like to be sure to include?

EG: No. I mean, it can include the rest of my life. Yeah. I mean, no, no. I said to my wife -- and she married me three times and we haven't lived together for a very long time. And I said, "Do you have any regrets?" And she said, in her way, 75:00"Oh, yeah, don't you?" And so, I thought for a moment and I said, "No, I can't change anything. I've always meant well and this is how we learn." Our children find it difficult to accept that. What should I be sor-- I mean, don't misunderstand me. Like I say, Barbra said to me, "You had a drug problem." And I said, "Bullshit," I said. And I went on national television to say, "I didn't have a drug problem. I had a problem with reality." And I'm not in denial. I know what I did; I know what I tried. Granted, I had no judgment. Granted, I had no perspective. And I said, "But we never did any of that together. I mean, our 76:00relationship is perfect. And so, it was who do you listen to? What do you believe? Does that validate or does that justify that there's a part of this that you didn't know? How could I know if I didn't understand? I had to be able to accept it, not because -- to be afraid what you would think." So, the whole family is together now. We are together. And what else could I do? Oh, my goodness. I did a film -- the last television series I did was called "9JKL." Very hard work. But it was all a family and I'm all in. That's all that matters to me. And now, I know in terms of education -- I believe in education and I believe in science. I believe in life. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And we have to be careful. We have to be careful. More than careful. 77:00It's so great. And on and on.

CW: Yeah. Did you have any favorite Jewish roles that you played?

EG: No, for me, every role I play is Jewish, even Trapper John McIntyre. When we cast me in the "Ocean's" movies, I was working in Ireland and Jerry Weintraub asked me to meet Steven Soderbergh. And so, we made a time, certain thing, I came back here and I met him at a restaurant and he said, "Okay, I'll cast you." I said, "Oh, great." I said, "I'm so happy." I said, "Soderbergh, is that a 78:00Jewish name?" He said, "No, I'm Swedish." And I said, "Oh, no, Swedish is a nationality. Jewish is a way of life." He said, "I said I'm Swedish!" I said, "I hope I haven't blown the job, whatever you want to do or say." But that was great. Oh, no, and playing someone -- oh, once I narrated a documentary for the Weizmann Institute. I may have given it to someone or it may be on my wall -- in Rehovot. And didn't narrate it. I played a part. I played a non-Jewish writer who goes to Israel for the first time -- and to see the Weizmann Institute. And so, I'm learning while I'm seeing. And I remember when I went to the bedroom of 79:00Chaim Weizmann, where he died, his last place. And I'm looking out the window, I could see where he was, what he might have seen. And so, non-Jewish -- yeah, so long as I have blood -- and even then, we'll see. Spirit, you know?

CW: Yeah. What I always like to ask everyone, sort of what, from your perspective, is -- where is Yiddish now?

EG: Oh, as far as I'm concerned, it's right here. I mean, where is Yiddish? Oh, well, I know Yiddish is in Massachusetts. It's with you! That's great, Yiddish. 80:00Aaron could tell me intellectually what he thinks. I recall I had a little contact here or there with Robert Redford and one time he said to me, "How do you perceive things, intellectually or viscerally?" And I said, "I don't know the difference." And so, oh, Yiddish? Yiddish should always be here. Yeah, I do believe it always will be here. I know that we have problems, same as life.

CW: And why do you think it should always be here?

EG: Because of the tradition, because of its meaning, because of, from my view, how we have moved to stay alive, how we've had to move. And therefore, language 81:00then becomes an instrument through which we can communicate with one another in relation to meaning, giving life a meaning, a language, yeah.

CW: And what does Yiddish mean to you?

EG: To me, being a Jew. That's what it means to me, being a -- whether I'm being observant or not, to be able to communicate and to relate through language. It's 82:00feelings. I know for me that everything is abstract and that I feel what I see and I feel what I hear. And so, Yiddish, it's being Jewish wherever we are.

CW: Great. Well, anything that you want to say to future generations that --

EG: Oh, that's so nice. (pauses) Welcome aboard.

CW: Great, well --

EG: I would want to say a lot more, starting with, what, (sings) "A, you're adorable, B, you're so beautiful." Future generations, never give up. Education. 83:00Learn every beat of your life and also learn to simplify and to be able to absorb everything and be able to pass it all on as we come around in circles. And again, never give up.

CW: Well, a sheynem dank [thank you very much].

EG: Thanks.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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