SARAH GORDON ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: Today is August 25th, 2011.

SARAH GORDON: Amazing.

CW:This is Christa Whitney. I'm here with Sarah Gordon at KlezKanada. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Sarah, do I have your permission to record this interview?

SG:You do indeed.

CW:Thank you.

SG:You're welcome.

CW:Can you tell me what you know about your family background -- where they came from?

SG:Yeah. Well, my parents -- my mom is from Berkeley, California -- or actually, Oakland. And my dad was born in Denver, but his family is from Chicago, and they moved back to Chicago really just a couple of months after he was born. All four of my grandparents are from Chicago. And -- but before that, my grandmother on 1:00my father's side was born in what my family refers to as Russia, in 1915, and she came over in 1923 with her family. And she actually remember-- and they really roamed around a lot. And she was possibly born in a place called Mayachka, while her sister was born somewhere maybe called Kobelyaki -- this is all, you know, family information that we heard very late. But their path is a little bit confusing. They were really running a lot. So, they were in Riga for a while; I think a lot of their family was from Smorgon. And then, they came 2:00over in '23, I think as pretty much a whole family -- they were not traveling steerage to New York. It's possible that my great-grandfather went first, for a couple of years before. And they were, kind of, more academic. Definitely -- my great-grandfather was a Zionist, but mostly they were just intelligentsia. He was a pharmacist. And my great-grandmother was a dentist. And she had studied in Nancy, France, to be a dentist, which was a big thing. And apparently, she -- the way that she got to Nancy was by pretending to be a maid because Jews weren't allowed to go to study. But once she was there, she studied. And I have her calling card -- "Mademoiselle Mine Garb." And that's on my dad's famil-- 3:00side. My grandfather on that side was born in Chicago in 1911. And I think it's possible that his father was also born in the States, although I'm not completely sure. And they're definitely Lithuanian, but they really identify as Americans, and that's their thing. On my mom's side, my great-grandparents were from Lithuania and came over also in the '20s. No, they came over earlier. They must have. Interesting. I think that my great-grandmother came over when she was fifteen, and she was the first of her family to come, and then they sent for others. They were way more uneducated and more religious. And my 4:00great-grandfather was a -- I think -- you know, he sang a lot in synagogues. Not a khazn [synagogue cantor]; maybe like a bal-tfile [reader of prayers on special occasions, lit. "master of prayer"] or something like that -- and maybe also did some shoykheting [ritual slaughtering]. And I -- weirdly, they're the more Yiddish side of my family, and definitely the family -- you know, my mother is more interested in Yiddish, spoke more Yiddish growing up. But they're also the side that I'm a little bit less sure of where people lived. But my grandfather -- also Lithuanian parents, but they came a little bit after. And I think part of their family -- part of my grandfather's family was born in Europe and then 5:00they came through Canada and then came down to the States. And that's also unclear who of the kids were born where. I think my grandfather was born in Canada, but we only learned that maybe after he died. So, that's a long answer. (laughs) There we go.

CW:That's a big family.

SG:And I was born in New York. Yes.

CW:Are there any family stories that have been passed down?

SG:Yeah. There's some story of my great-grandfather on my mom's side being in a wagon -- I'm totally gonna mess this up -- being in a wagon filled with hay and, like, lots of people in hiding, I think, under -- to pass, I'm sure, from one place to another. And this is probably the early twentieth century, before he came over. And he -- there was, like, a blue sock that was sticking out. And he 6:00was like, (whispers) "Whose is that?" Like, (whispers) "Get it down!" Or something. And then, he realized that it was his own foot. But it took him a really long time, 'cause everybody was covered with hay and there were lots of people. It's a bad story. I'm sure I'm messing it up. But there's that. I, again, know way more stories on my -- before my grandparents moved from Chicago to Florida on my dad's side, my grandmother -- who had, like, never talked about anything and was, you know, a completely secular, working person -- like, really interested in her own friends and her own social life, and she was a school principal and my grandfather was a lawyer and they were -- they traveled to China in the 1970s and were very active people. All of a sudden, when I came to Chicago to help them kind of decide what they were gonna bring to Florida and what not, we sat there and looked through pictures, and my grandmother told me 7:00all of these stories. And I didn't realize that she remembered anything from her life before she came to the States, but she did, so she told me tons of stories. One of which is, she remembers the preschool that she went to in Lithuania on their way, and that every morning they would have a cup of hot tea with a raw egg cracked inside of it. (laughs) And she hated it -- she thought it was the most disgusting thing in the world. Her first memory is looking under the stove and seeing a rat looking at her. So, those are two little stories. And then -- oh, I was about to say another one. We have an older story -- we have a figurine that's some kind of Fren-- you know, it's like a little -- not a statue, but -- ceramic, French-looking -- like, a woman and a man, they look like courtesans, 8:00and it's -- you know. Am I making -- being clear about it? Yeah? And it's enameled -- or not enameled, but it's -- you know, some kind of pottery, but very shiny and -- I guess my great-grandfather -- someone in my family -- went and got it and then came back to Smorgon with it. And they were like, Oh, no. You can't have it. It's -- you know, it's, like, too much of an image -- and they snapped off the head and the hands to make it imperfect so that it wouldn't be super treyf [not kosher] and they could have it in their house. And we still have that, which is pretty cool. So, those are some stories. But I heard them -- I heard them very late, which is kind of amazing, that my grandmother had all of these stories and nobody had really ever bothered to ask and she hadn't, I think, really been interested in talking about them. So, those -- I don't know 9:00if that's what you meant -- like, old stories -- like, Old World stories. Those are the Old World stories. And there are, of course, you know, the more New World stories. My grandmother won the Chicago citywide voice competition at fifteen on a Shabbos -- you know, she was fifteen years old and she had to walk from the South Side of Chicago all the way up to the Loop and then, you know, it was on the, like, ninety-eighth floor of the building, so she had to walk up all the stairs, and then she sang, and she won it. That's our great myth on my mom's side. (laughs) Which is possibly quite true. So, yeah.

CW:Can you describe the home you grew up in? In what ways did it feel Jewish?

SG:In every way. (laughs) My dad -- my parents divorced when I was five and separated around then as well. But my dad is a cantor and my mom is, you know, a 10:00Yiddish singer -- and, you know, did really all of her work -- all of her academic work in Jewish studies and Jewish history -- well, at least her master's and the start of her PhD work, but then she didn't finish it -- in Jewish history. And she -- I grew up with my father being a cantor and my mom working at the YIVO Institute. I mean, that was the life I was born into. So --

CW:What do you remember about YIVO as a kid?

SG:(whispers) Oh, so much. So much. Well, A, you know, it was this amazing building, which is now the Neue Gallery, which is now an Austrian art museum -- but this amazing, beautiful, huge building with black-and-white tiled marble 11:00floors. And you'd walk in and there was a switchboard, and a woman would answer the phone: "Hello, YIVO." And it was like an old-school switchboard -- lots of things that you could put in. The elevator was the worst and scariest elevator in the world, and sometimes people got stuck in it. And I heard -- I think that Roz Fox, who had worked there, got stuck -- I think over a weekend, or so I -- (laughs) -- 'cause that's just how it was. But it was also amazing -- you know, these beautiful stairways. The library, the research room -- I mean, I can see Dina Abramowicz there -- had these huge, gigantic, oaken tables -- oak tables, dusty chandeliers everywhere, books everywhere. And it was amazing and interesting and fascinating. And that's where I played. I would go there after 12:00work -- after school every day. My mom would pick me up and we'd take the bus across town and I'd be there. And there are -- like, kid things that I loved. Like, I used to -- I was definitely kind of a little mascot. And I just remember being in places -- so I used to go to Bina Weinreich's office, and she had toys that she had there for her grandchildren. And she had these amazing blue and white block-type things, and I used to just sit on her floor, while she did work, and play with them. I remember Lucjan Dobroszycki very well -- and apparently, I used to call him "Doggie Shishky." (laughs) It's so weird -- especially being around now and things being very clear -- you know, image before my eyes -- all of these projects that were huge, and I remember walking 13:00around, I remember being around when Josh Waletzky was working on his film, I remember -- you know, I remember knowing who was a partisan and who wasn't. It was -- so, in that way, it was super magical and interesting, and then also very kid-like. And also a weird thing -- you know, Alicia Svigals was Sam Norich's secretary, and I remember playing computer games -- you know, and she's, you know, one of the best klezmer violinists in the world. And -- I mean, I really did grow up in it. And many of these people who are incredibly involved in the Yiddish music and cultural scenes today and are now seen as the -- I don't know, the people who really started the revival -- were there, hanging around: Henry Sapoznik, Josh Waletzky, Lorin Sklamberg, Jenny Romaine -- like, people just 14:00worked there. Jack Kugelmass, who's here -- people kind of cycled in and out, and they were all super young, and it was amazing. They had a prom. And there was also this whole thing about -- you know, with the -- young queer people also working in it. I definitely remember that there was a YIVO prom and everybody dressed up. And they -- so it was part academic warehouse, part amazing cultural institution, and also, you know, this great community clubhouse, as well. And there was lots of fun. I mean -- so, for me, it was really a great part of my childhood. And I loved it there. I loved just walking around and hiding -- I used to hide notes with Yankl Salant in the -- there was a display room, or a -- 15:00oh my gosh, what's that word, where you have a -- like an exhibition room, and there was a door that had nothing behind it; it was just bricks. But we used to leave notes and postcards for each other. And I guess my mom worked there until I was about twelve. But, you know, she was pregnant with me when I was there. I mean, YIVO was really like another home for me.

CW:And what were the languages that were around -- you know, growing up?

SG:A lot of Yiddish. A lot of English. In YIVO, there was Polish and other things, but never -- I mean, my mom didn't speak, I didn't speak. People would speak to me a little bit in Yiddish and I would answer in English. I didn't speak Yiddish. So, those were them. And then, when I went to grade school, I started learning Hebrew -- kind of. Kind of learning Hebrew.

CW:Can you tell me just a little bit about where you went to school?

SG:Yeah. I went to the Abraham Joshua Heschel School, which is a Jewish private 16:00school in Manhattan. I went there the second year that it started. It was quite small. And it was -- it is an egalitarian, progressive Jewish school. And I went there from kindergarten through eighth grade. I went to a little -- a Workmen's Circle, I think it was a Workmen's Circle -- but the West Side Yiddish Shule for about a year or two, but then it was too much. I was also going to Hebrew school at my dad's synagogue on Sundays in Connecticut, which was a Reform Hebrew school. And then, I went to a Quaker high school. (laughs) Then, do I have to keep going -- where else? No, we're still in childhood years?

CW:Oh, no. Well, when did -- where'd you go to college and --

SG:And then, I went to Sarah Lawrence College. I studied -- my junior year abroad, I went to Israel, where I did an independent study on American Yiddish poetry. (laughs) I was like, What am I doing? (laughs) And then, I came back to the States and enrolled immediately in the Weinreich Program when it was at Columbia and did a year of Yiddish before going back to Sarah Lawrence and then -- a year -- a summer of Yiddish and then I went back and I finished Sarah Lawrence. And then, eventually, I got a master's degree at Bank Street College of Education in general education and a literacy specialization for elementary school kids. But I also ended up taking two or three more zumer-programs [summer programs] -- some audited, some not, some while I was working there, some while 18:00I wasn't.

CW:Well, to turn a little more towards Yiddish in general, what was -- I mean, I think that year in Israel -- I've read -- was a sort of turning point for you. What was that decision -- to study Yiddish? Where'd that come from?

SG:(pauses) I'm not exactly sure. I think that -- I was always jealous that my mom could speak so well and that I couldn't -- and mad at her for not teaching me. (laughs) Although I also really appreciated not -- (laughs) I was really fine also not being one of those people who's raised in a home where you just -- 19:00you know, like, You must speak Yiddish now! And it -- but I was jealous. I admit it. And I think -- when I was in Israel, I felt -- not alienated, but -- I mean, not at all interested in Israeli culture as -- as a part of my own identity. It was fascinating to be there, and very hard, but I had no real pull to make aliyah or to be invested there. And I did a lot of -- you know, politically, I did -- not politically, but politically, it was very difficult for me also to be 20:00there. And I volunteered with kids in the West Bank. I taught English to Bedouin kids living in the West Bank. You could still travel back and forth then. I was in Jerusalem. There was no wall. It was very easy. And I just -- that was the thing that was interesting to me. I took a class with Sidra Ezrahi called "Exile and Homecoming," and it was about, you know, the Diaspora and Jewish literature. And the thing that I wanted to do was -- I found the big Harshav "Yiddish Poetry in America" in a basement in Hebrew University and I just -- it was like, Oh! It's all about New York! (laughs) It's all about Yiddish! It's all about modern things! That's who I am! You know, even those these poems were written in the 21:00'20s -- and before -- I really connected deeply to them. And then, I have an incredibly cheesy story, but it was -- I think at the moment, it was really important to me. I had been waiting all summer -- or all year to have a dream in Hebrew. I was like, When I dream in Hebrew, it'll mean that I'm actually here and fluent and living the life and doing it. And really, towards the end of my year, I had a dream that I was (laughs) in a cab driving around, like, Talpiot with some cab driver, and we were both singing Yiddish songs (laughs) and that was my language dream. And I woke up, I was like, Okay, here we go. It's not happening. And I called -- I emailed around, and I -- it was like, I'm gonna enroll in the Yiddish summer program. And they were like, Excellent. And that 22:00was that. And it was nice for me, because I think that that was also a transition from me being a kid in the Yiddish world and knowing stuff kind of passively and being a receptor and finding my own spot to kind of grow into and to take some ownership of. I think it started -- you know, whatever that is -- my transition to be a transmitter in some ways. And then, when I took the zumer-program, I also -- it was shocking to me how much I already knew. How much latent knowledge there was there, and how much I had actually -- I had absorbed, but I just hadn't really focused on it.

CW:How did learning -- or, you know, having -- gaining that literacy in Yiddish 23:00change things for you, if at all?

SG:Well, it definitely changed things for me, in terms of -- I mean, I could write, which was the big thing, is that -- that's kind of how I started to professionally get into Yiddish, is like, I started to, with a lot of help, write some Yiddish songs. And that was great. And I felt like I -- you know, I found also my own community of people, of peers who were doing it as well, instead of just people -- you know, my mom's friends, who were my friends as well. And it was also a nice way to get in and feel informed. I also think that I am highly aware of my limitations, and like, I am not fluent -- at all. 24:00(laughs) And I think that that was also a part of it, was kind of realizing what I knew and what I didn't. And it was important for me to feel clear about that with people -- you know, to be clear about it and to feel clear about it -- just like, I have this, and it's not complete. And I feel like -- you know, I could have dedicated my life to it, but I really didn't want to in the same way. I think I was very happy kind of trying to create a balance between Yiddish and -- like, my Yiddish life and the Yiddish world and then also the larger world. And for a while, I was thinking -- after I graduated college, like, maybe I should go and get a PhD in folklore, and then I was like, Nope. Not gonna do it. I had 25:00a moment where I thought about it, and then I just kind of went into the more secular, mainstream, English-speaking world -- which was nice for me, to kind of find my own path as well as to not just kind of try to be a little Adrienne Cooper. (puts on different voice) Oh, I sing in Yiddish and now I work in -- (laughs) you know? It's like, Here we go. I can do that and still have it -- and still have Yiddish. And -- yeah. I don't know if that's clear.

CW:Well, we'll talk a little more about Yiddish later, but I know that you are touring and performing with Yiddish Princess. Can you just give me a snapshot of the projects you're working on right now?

SG:Oh, yeah. It'll be brief. (laughs) So, Yiddish Princess -- we are kind of developing a little bit more repertoire, but at this point, we have our nice 26:00little group of thirteen songs that we like a lot. Most of them are traditional, but some of them are ones that Michael and I -- Michael Winograd and I wrote together -- he wrote the melody and then I wrote the words to. So, we have that. And we've been playing around, which has been really fun. I'm thinking about recording -- I would like to soon record our version of "Vilna," just to have it, because I really love it. It's the only really super sincere song (laughs) -- I mean, in many ways, like, the only sincere song we do, and I feel like -- I always say, "Oh, and this is our love song," and it works for me in a lot of ways. I also think that -- I'm just gonna talk about that for a moment. For a really long time, I hated -- I didn't hate the song "Vilna"; I loved the song, 27:00but I didn't think it made sense to -- for it to be performed or for me to perform it. It's like, my family's not from Vilna. (laughs) My grandmother was born -- you know, was not born in the States, but everybody else was, you know? I'm not sure if -- like, what that benkshaft [nostalgia] is really actually for. (laughs) And -- but there was a switch, actually, recently for me, where I realized that for me, a lot of it was actually about YIVO and those people. And Vilna was such an important part of their life. And that was the extension for me. And that made it feel much more real. And so, that works for me now. So, I'd 28:00like to record a "Vilna," 'cause I like our version a lot. And -- I don't know. And I've been thinking about possibly -- like, for myself -- doing a more traditional project, but I haven't totally decided. And I just wrote another song with Michael for something that he is recording. He's recording a new klezmer -- or Yiddish music album, and he wrote a melody for Judith Berkson, who's an amazing singer. And I wrote the words to it. And that was exciting, 'cause I haven't written in a really, really, really long time. I've done some translating. A couple of years ago, I translated a Portuguese song -- a Brazilian song -- for Lorin Sklamberg and the Klezmatics, and that's really the last kind of big thing that I did -- except for rewrite a chorus of something. But -- so writing this was really nice.

CW:How did Yiddish Princess come about?

SG:Michael and I are good friends. And we hang out -- we hang out and we have hung out now for years. And, you know, if there's a piano around or something, Michael is usually playing it. And once we made a joke, and I had gotten a new computer -- this is actually how it started -- this is not gonna be an interesting story, but I'm gonna tell it anyway. I got a new computer -- my first computer that had GarageBand on it -- and we recorded a very stupid version of "Tumba," which is a very short, silly folk song, using lots of things, and also banging on pots as percussion. And also, I think, a version of "Tumba" -- both of us singing -- it's lovely -- it's really bad -- using as many 30:00vocal effects as possible. And as that was happening, there was also a joke -- I was also making a joke that if, like, my mom was the queen of Yiddish song, then I was the princess, and then calling myself a Yiddish American princess. On Friendster, I think that was my little tag -- Yiddish American princess. And then, I had also really been trying to figure out what I wanted to do musically, 'cause I wasn't doing any music, and I kind of wanted to, but I was really scared. And Michael being Michael was like, "We need to set a date and we need to know that you have a gig then, and then you'll just do it. And I'll help you do it, 'cause I'm your friend. And that's what we'll do." So, I got a Passover gig at the Kultur-kongres [Congress for Jewish Culture] -- at their kave-hoyz [coffeehouse] in New York when it was on Twenty-Third Street. And so we were 31:00like, Eh, maybe we'll just put together all Pesach songs. But a lot of the more secular -- and in general, Yiddish Pesach songs are really, really cheesy. And we were going through them, and Winograd was like, "The only way I'll do this is if we do it as, like, '80s pop," which we had played around with. And I was like, "Fine. Let's do it." And at first it was gonna be me, Michael on keyboard, and our friend John Singer on cowbell, but he bailed. (laughs) And it was hysterical. And we decided to call it "Yiddish Princess," 'cause it worked. And the show, I think -- at least on my computer -- was, like, "Passover Princess." And then, maybe a year or not so much later, our friend, Avi Fox-Rosen, moved to town -- or he had been in town, but I didn't really know him. We got introduced -- he's a great guitar player -- and grabbed a bass player and we started 32:00playing. And then, Avi knew Yoshi, who's another guitar player. And then -- so, it just kind of blossomed. And then, we built up a repertoire. And we were like, Oh! Our first few shows were ridiculous and very funny. And it was really more of a joke in a lot of ways. I still wear ridiculous things, but -- you know, I think our drummer at the time, John, was wearing a -- like, a monkey mask. Avi used to wear tefillin on stage -- no shirt and tefillin -- or, like, teeny shorts and tefillin. And it was ridiculous, and really fun. And then, at a certain point, I think we realized that actually, the music was -- (laughs) if we worked at it, the music was good enough, and it didn't need to be a joke. And 33:00that was really excellent. So, it -- but it -- so that's the story. And people started talking about it. And then, we decided to record. And then, we recorded our little EP of five songs, and that was that.

CW:What inspires you in your work?

SG:Words. Yeah. I'm definitely, like, a poetry word person.

CW:Are there specific poets or -- that you --

SG:Yeah. Yeah. Glatstein -- absolutely my favorite for a really, really long time. There's a poem called "Mayn vogl-bruder," I think -- "My Wander Brother" -- which is unbelievable. The images are, like, incredibly beautiful. Like, you know -- the God of his disbelief sharing a last bite of something, and the glow 34:00of his cigarette. It's -- the images -- that was really one of the first poems I really went like, Oh. I also think that Manger is a crazy genius. And when I write, I think that Manger is who I think about the most. And before I wrote for Michael, I read -- I have a big book of lider [songs] and balade [ballads]. It's a really -- you know, a nice volume, which has an incredible introduction that he wrote. It's all about how he -- it's basically that he's writing -- I don't know when it is -- how he's not -- that it's harder to write now, he writes that. It's amazing. Anyhow, I sidetrack. And I read a lot of his before I started to write. I totally stole some amazing images. (laughs) I was like, Yes, 35:00that is beautiful. I will use that maybe. So, they're my favorite. But there are, you know, tons and tons.

CW:What has it been like -- you know, growing up with your mom and being around her?

SG:Well, she's fabulous. A little hard. (laughs) But you mean more, like, Yiddish-y? (laughs)

CW:Yeah. I mean, just growing up sort of in that shadow and how that inspired you or made it difficult sometimes --

SG:Yeah.

CW:-- to find your own voice?

SG:It's interesting. I mean, mom has really the least amount of ego for (laughs) -- for a singer. It's pretty fascinating. And she's incredibly generous with her time and her space and her talent. I think, though, for me, it was really hard. 36:00Because I knew what good music sounded like and what a good concert looked like, and so my standards were really incredibly high. And I think that that's probably more about me than it is about her. But, you know, in general, it took a long time, I think, for me to not be just seen as Adrienne Cooper's daughter. Like, I would do a concert with Frank London's brass band, and then afterwards, somebody would introduce me to someone else as Adrienne Cooper's daughter. I'd say, "But I was just there. You just saw me!" You know? And I think that part of the reason (laughs) that that scared me was also because it seems like there's a lot -- high expectations there. This is also the pain of just growing up and -- 37:00meanwhile, it wasn't so painful that I had to find a completely other world and music scene to be part of, right? Which a lot of people do. And I never felt the need to do that. I think that the whole struggle was internal. It was my own stuff about not knowing enough -- really not knowing enough and not doing it justice. But to have her around -- I mean, she's an incredible thinker and chatter. And I think a huge part of my education is just that. You know, she was involved in so many projects and I kind of learned alongside her. You know, so -- you know, when I was little, she had -- was part of a play about the Triangle 38:00Shirtwaist Factory fire -- when I was really quite young, like, six. I remember that. There are tapes of me making up horrible epic songs about the very sad fire. I think that's a quote -- "very sad" -- from one of my amazing songs. And then, she was in a play called "Songs of Paradise," which was based on Itzik Manger's "Khumesh-lider [Pentateuch poems]." And it was in English and in Yiddish, and it played at the Public Theater for about eight months -- had a really, nice long run. And I was there every day after school, so I was part of that little world. And I learned a lot there. And then, you know, it was just a kind of project-y house, you know? I would be talking to her about papers I was writing in high school -- on whatever I was writing, "East of Eden" or Nietzsche 39:00or whatever. And then, you know, we would talk about "Glückel of Hameln" when she was working on that play. So, there were really great things. But I think I was working -- I work with a lot of information because I've spent so much time with her, which can be overwhelming sometimes.

CW:When did you start singing?

SG:I sang around a lot when I was l-- you know, just around the house and whatever. Both of my parents are singers. It's exciting. They met, 'cause one -- they had the voice lessons, apparently, right after one another in Chicago at a conservatory (UNCLEAR). So, you know, I sang a lot. In school, et cetera. When I was ten or eleven, the Holocaust Museum in DC -- with -- decided to put out an 40:00album. Guy Laflamme and Henry Sapoznik worked on it, and it was called "Remember the Children: Songs for and by Children of the Holocaust." That part is really, like, one of the worst titles ever -- "for and by." But they were -- it was a great collection. And tons of people were on it. And maybe -- Lorin Sklamberg also worked on it a lot, and I remember my mom was like, "Lorin wants to know if you would like to sing -- there are two songs that they want a kid to sing." And we taped me singing at home. And then, I recorded two songs as, like, an eleven-year-old, but I sound probably much younger. And that was kind of the 41:00beginning for me. I loved it. And I loved singing in Yiddish. And although it made me incredibly nervous -- I was pretty happy. And then -- and KlezKamps, you know, when I started to be -- and I did music in high school. I sang a lot in high school, in choruses and things like that. And then, when I was at KlezKamp, I would -- you know, I was teaching kids a lot. But as a young teenager, I started to also go to master classes and perform a little bit and get some feedback. And I went to a couple of repertoire classes. And that's kind of how it -- there was never like a, I'm here and I must sing, like, all the time! It's not really -- I'm still a little bit -- not apathetic about it, but -- you know. 42:00I'm not a completely gung-ho, This is definitely what I want to do. I'm a little wary of performance. (laughs) So, but I like it.

CW:I want to talk a little bit about revival and transmission. Performing artists have historically played a very important role in cultural revival. But first, I want to sort of ask generally: what's your take on the idea of cultural revival?

SG:(pauses) I'm not sure I totally buy it -- revival. I think things ebb and flow and change and morph. (pauses) I don't know. It's an interesting -- I mean, I'm absolutely happy to be a part of this. I feel like sometimes there is -- you 43:00know, when people think about Yiddish culture, they pick and choose their eras, and I don't think that you can do that. (laughs) So, I don't think -- like, you're talking about czarist Russia and then labor movements in Eastern Europe and then the '20s in New York, and then the '70s and the advent of -- you know, and the klezmer revival. It's like, people don't like to talk about postwar, they don't like to talk about that white, you know, boom -- baby boom -- and what life was like for people. You know, so I don't know. I think it's 44:00fascinating, but -- so I don't know if that's really a good answer, but -- I think we each -- you know, the world constantly changes, and -- part of understanding ourselves and who we are and where we fit in the world is about understanding our past and making a connection, and people make meaningful connections to parts of their history that they find useful. So -- and, you know, we all do that. It's not a criticism. But, you know, the revival -- does that imply that there was a period where it did -- it was not reviving, where it needed -- you know, there was a place that it had to be revived from? I guess. I 45:00don't know. It just seems like a kind of (pauses) -- it's as if -- it seems also congratulatory. Like, You're welcome, we brought this back. You know? So, I don't know if that's really an answer. Maybe it sounds too snarky.

CW:And about cultural transmission -- what is the role that performing artists can, do, should, shouldn't play in cultural transmission?

SG:(speaks under her breath) Can, do, shouldn't play? I think that artists can do whatever they want. Really. I mean (sighs) -- I mean, I think that in general, you know, having -- claiming ownership over something that is (laughs) 46:00-- that is unownable is not okay. But other than that, I think that, you know, that's the great thing about art, is that you can do whatever. And I think that -- being clear sometimes about what you're doing and what it is you're doing is important. So, if you're doing traditional music because you really want to play exactly what has been done -- was done -- and that is important to you, then -- talking about that. But I also think if that's not your purpose, and that's not -- I mean, I think that there needs to be some kind of intention sometimes -- or at least clarity. Because I think that there is also -- with something -- you know, when you're talking about things that are connected -- art and performance -- that's connected with folk culture, that is -- you know, is a little bit 47:00confusing and disconnected because of -- I guess historical trauma, but also just modern life. I think that you do need to have some intention there. And I don't enjoy when people treat things as if they're precious and then can't be -- can't be changed or -- as if there's no room for innovation or anything like that. Which is not necessar-- I don't really see that happening so much, but I think that, you know, it's something to be aware of. And did I answer the question? Oh, good.

CW:Is there sort of a message or sort of a meta thing (laughs) -- intention in 48:00your work? I mean, are you trying to convey something through your work about Yiddish culture or something else?

SG:No, I don't think so. I think, for me, as -- I roll my eyes before I say "artist" -- I think that (pauses) -- that being free to use what you know in whatever way you want to is incredibly important, and not feeling like just because -- well, I guess maybe that's part of it -- just because you do something in Yiddish, you need to explain it, or you owe people -- like, there's 49:00more responsibility than if you were doing that in another language. And I think that that's a constant thing, especially if you're informed. You're so often -- right, people have this expectation of you being not just a transmitter of art in your language or related to your language but also of information with it -- which really speaks to another need, but I don't think that it needs to be filled by artists alone. And I do love -- you know, one of the things that's nice about playing in more Yiddish festivals or knowing that there are people who know folk songs and stuff like that is that with Yiddish Princess, I don't feel that -- I mean, I never really explain what we're doing, but I really don't 50:00feel the need. And to have people sing along is pretty awesome. But I don't think that, you know, I need to translate my performance. It doesn't make sense for Yiddish Princess. And we -- when people say, like -- actually, not so many people say, I wish I knew what the songs were about. Which I love. I get a lot more, I have no clue what that's about, but I really liked it (laughs) and I really liked the way that, you know, you told it, or whatever. But I guess that's it -- the feeling of just taking what you know and being able to do whatever you want with it is important to me. I feel like informed innovation --

CW:Do you consider yourself an activist?

SG:I consider myself an advocate. (pauses) I don't -- I don't know exactly what I would be an activist for. Like, I don't think that I have an end goal in sight. I feel like, you know -- I was talking to somebody about, like, Is this a movement? It's like, towards what, you know? I mean, life is a movement. I feel very involved and dedicated. And I feel like I advocate for things that I believe in and -- and I like to inform and be part of a thriving community. But I don't know if I see myself as an activist. I don't really know what that would mean in this case, 'cause I don't -- I'm uninterested in recreating, you know, a 52:00Yiddish-speaking world. It's -- I don't understand the point -- what the endpoint is. You know, so you can just, like, speak Yiddish? Like (laughs) -- I love having the language, I love having that facility, I love being able to talk to people, and -- but I don't (pauses) -- I don't -- I think that that part, not so much. But I think that, you know, in terms of people (sighs) -- I advocate for people being able to find their -- you know, find a way to connect to culture and things being open enough for anybody to -- who wants to feel like 53:00part of a community. And I think that the secular Yiddish, you know, world is very open and creates possibility for lots of different folks to be part of a community that is supportive and open. And -- but activist? No, advocate. I like that.

CW:I know that you have started teaching --

SG:Um-hm.

CW:-- and other places. What do you like about teaching this material?

SG:Oh, I like sharing songs. (laughs) I like sharing songs and talking. I also really like doing the work before to find stuff. I like being part of that conversation. Also, what's nice is places like this -- when you teach, you're 54:00not really just teaching; you're part of a conversation, so you get to chat with other people, find out what they know, and kind of move on from there.

CW:Do you have any major mentors in your work?

SG:Other than my mom? (pauses) Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, people who definitely influenced me -- Frank London is somebody who I know and I love and is a huge part of my family. And also, he was the first person who was like, You should sing with my band, and let's do that. And his kind of freeness with 55:00everything and overarching enthusiasm (laughs) was a huge inspiration, and also, I think, let me kind of relax a lot. Lorin Sklamberg, also, in terms of just finding information and finding music and then doing something -- you know, kind of being informed and then doing something else with it -- has been a huge part. And Jenny Romaine -- I did a lot of youth theater with her, but she's, like, the best idea person ever. I mean, she's a real activist, but also an amazing advocate and is so happy to talk about ideas all the time. And I think that she's an amazing person, and I think that her stuff with Yiddish is phenomenal. 56:00So, I think that those -- those three folks. But there's a huge -- a huge crew of people who I feel like are -- you know, have absolutely kind of created this net for me. So, I could make a huge list, but it'd kinda start sounding like weird name-dropping and I'd feel bad about leaving people out.

CW:Are there other music traditions or thing-- sort of influences that you feel you're working alongside or that you're sort of crossing over into in your work in Yiddish? Do you feel like you have a sort of sister (laughs) tradition that 57:00you're -- that you see mirroring or paralleling your work with Yiddish?

SG:I really don't think about it like that. Yeah. I don't. Which is not to say there isn't one; I just -- I think I haven't -- maybe it'd be -- it might be that I'm just, you know, so egotistical, and I have my little blinders on. So, I don't -- I don't think about it like that. I mean, there are -- but there absolutely are, but I don't think I look to them as a mirror. I'm aware of lots of other musical and cultural communities. But I don't -- I'm not forging any connections.

CW:Do you -- you mentioned before that you do, but if you can talk a little bit 58:00about how and when you use Yiddish outside of your music work.

SG:I talk to my mom in Yiddish, mostly when there are people around who I don't want to hear, who I don't -- who -- try that again. I speak to my mother in Yiddish when I don't want other people (laughs) to understand us. That's -- I mean, that's when I use it the most. And then, I have some friends that I speak with every so often, but also in English. You know, that's really kind of it. I live in Brooklyn; there are lots of Yiddish signs around, you know, not too far from me. But even, like, if I go to Borough Park and I'm in Mostly Music or something like that, I tend to speak English instead of Yiddish. I just think it's too confusing for people. You know, and then I read when I can in Yiddish. 59:00And I have certain correspondences with people -- you know, if I -- who are just, you know, such devout Yiddishists and that -- unless I'm exhausted and I just can't really think of the words, I will write with -- write to them in Yiddish. So, like, Sholem Berger -- you know, we had a back-and-forth about my -- 'cause I asked him to read the new poem that I wrote for Michael's melody. Those emails are in Yiddish. I feel much more comfortable in English. (laughs) But I like having the option.

CW:Is there anything that you want to convey about -- that we haven't talked about yet?

SG:(pauses) I don't think so. I'm trying to think if my answer about the revival 60:00was too -- sounded, like, super passive, which I don't -- and non-appreciative of all of the things that are happening. 'Cause I don't -- I think that it's exciting. I think that what's happening is exciting. I think what -- you know, what the Yiddish Book Center has become is exciting. I think, you know, the possibility of what's happening in Madison right now is really exciting. On the other hand, there are also Yiddish programs closing down in other parts of the country. You know, and the zumer-program has been moved from university to university -- the Weinreich Program. But I think it's going to be exciting to see where things go. And I'm not sure everybody's gonna be happy. (laughs) In 61:00many ways. I think a lot of -- you know, there's an interesting thing that's happening now with festivals and -- especially in Europe and -- you know, like, how involved Chabad is in certain places and how -- I think that that'll be an interesting thing to see, this kind of intersection, if there is an intersecting between the more secular and the more religious Yiddish worlds, just as Chabad continues to grow and, you know, has a lot of money and a lot of influence -- and is also kind of an accepting community in its own weird way. But it's not to say that I don't appreciate where we are and I don't see -- I'm, like, skipping back -- in terms of a revival -- I don't see how much more -- you know, how much 62:00bigger this invested community is, and especially when you're comparing it with, you know, thirty years ago or forty years ago. So, I just wanted to say that.

CW:What -- I mean, growing up in this community and -- yeah, just being so involved in it, what have you noticed that's changed?

SG:Well, I mean, I think the biggest thing is that there are no survivors, or very few. I really do think that that's a huge thing. And it feels very different. The stories you feel are very different. And I realized it a couple of years ago, because when I was a kid at KlezKamp, the -- one of the things that I really remember -- one of the first children's programs -- activities that were -- that happened was that Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett had a junior folklorist sheet. It was, like, Dittoed. I have it somewhere. No, Xeroxed -- it 63:00wasn't Dittoed. And basically, we were let loose in the lobby with this sheet to ask people questions. And it said, you know, What were the remedy -- you know, What would you do if you got a cut? What would you do if -- you know, just lots of things. Like, What would you do if you felt sick? What would you do -- tons and tons of stuff. And in the beginning, What's your name? Where were you born? How old are you? And we were let loose. And I remember I talked to Pearl Sapoznik, I spoke with Mayer Gimblett -- Mayer Kirshenblatt -- like, all of these amazing people who lived in shtetls [small Eastern European towns with Jewish communities], who had these actual things. I learned all about cupping, about bankes [cupping glasses]. I mean, I really -- I learned about peeing on cuts and -- you know, very kid stuff -- wrapping things in spiderwebs as 64:00bandages. I learned a huge amount about life in Eastern Europe, you know, before the war. And then, a few years ago, I was really thinking about how I could -- I really wanted to do something like that again as the director of the children's program at KlezKamp, and I couldn't, because that knowledge is all second-hand, or if you get it, then it's fine, but it's not the same. And that's really changed. And -- (whispers) oh God, whose funeral was it? At one of the -- there was also this period, right, where there were just so many funerals of Yiddish -- you know, Yiddish world in New York people. So, maybe it was Mr. Rogoff's 65:00funeral -- at Dovid Rogoff's funeral, I think -- Chana Yachness came up to me. And I had been weeping and weeping and weeping. And Mr. Rogoff was such a huge part of -- and his amazing voice. I just remember him -- you know, in YIVO, at KlezKamp -- like, he was part of my life. And Chana Yachness walked up to me and was like -- you know, and she's an intense person. (laughs) So, she said, "Do you feel it? Do you feel it? Do you feel the weight on your shoulders? Do you feel it?" And I was like -- (laughs) -- I was just weeping about, you know, everything, but it was the first time that someone basically said, That's yours now. Like, You have that. Which is also really different. And I think that that's a thing -- an interesting thing about growing up in this, is that there's the knowledge that you get from learning, right? Like, the Yiddish that I got 66:00from studying. And then, there's what you get from being part of a community and knowing people really well. Which is intense. It's an intense feeling of, like -- so that thing about innovation and revivals and whatever, it's confusing in some ways. Because I feel, like, really ill-equipped in many ways to do that. And I think that we (sighs) have to -- and we will -- clearly find our own way to kind of just re-center ourselves. Because the community is changing and because elders aren't elders anymore. And if I am teaching Yiddish song and if, you know, Asya Vaisman is teaching Yiddish and other people are tea-- you know, 67:00it's just -- it becomes another thing. And it's inevitable, clearly. But, you know, as I get old-- (laughs) -- as we get older, other people, you know, die, and as other people get older as well. But I think that that's really -- for me is the biggest change. And I'm sure there are other -- you know, there are other things about who comes and, you know, younger people being involved, but for me, that's not the -- that's not the heart of the change. The heart of the change is, like, who holds the knowledge and who transmits it? And what is that, and what does that mean for us as a community? And you do sometimes hear (laughs) -- you get something that, you know -- I mean, you feel -- you feel it. I feel it, 68:00the weight. (pauses) It's just -- you know, you hope that your shoulders are strong enough, and you keep going.

CW:What does it mean for the community?

SG:To have people gone?

CW:Yeah. Well, to have the weight on a different generation?

SG:I don't know. I really don't. I mean, I think that (pauses) -- you know, there's an entire generation for whom authenticity is -- was not even an -- a fleeting thought. (laughs) Like, doesn't make sense. And I mean, people are authentically themselves, but it's like, you're really transmitting stuff that -- I think it changes it. I do. I think that (sighs) (pauses) -- I don't know. I 69:00don't know exactly what it means. I think that it -- I mean, you know, we'll have a different canon, we'll have a different language. Our Yiddish will be different. I mean, it already is, right? Like, it's just -- you know, way more people speak kind of, you know, klal [standard Yiddish dialect] or, you know? You know, the only way you'd talk about weird things like sabesdik losn [Lithuanian Yiddish dialect, lit. "Sabbos language"] is in, you know, third-hand stories. So, I think -- but what I'm pretty sure will happen is that with that distancing -- and of course, looking back and (pauses) -- you know, referencing 70:00the past and learning about the past, there will also be something that's more immediate. And that'll be part of the influence as well. And it'll change -- which is normal, right? I mean, if you listen to the way that Pete Sokolow plays klezmer -- or, you know, "Klezmer Fats," whatever. I mean, that's really indicative of a time. So, it's not -- you know, it's not like there's one authentic or awesome or real thing, and then the others are fake or just, you know, bad copies. And I think that that'll continue to happen and happen again. But it'll be different. And I think that, you know, as critical as I am of nostalgia -- I mean, I'm definitely nostalgic clearly for the Yiddish world of 71:00my childhood. But, you know, it's 'cause it was mine. I mean, I'm sure (laughs) that people now are gonna be talking about it as well. But, I mean, I do feel incredibly privileged to have grown up in YIVO and have had this, and not come to it in another way. And I don't really know -- I don't really know what that's like. I mean, most of my -- I'm really one of the only ones of my friends who kind of grew up like this, especially because my family -- I mean, my mom never really talked of herself as a Yiddishist. It was just kind of like, And that's our world. And these people are Yiddishists. Like, I knew who was a Yiddishist and who wasn't, and we weren't really Yiddishists. We were just there (laughs) constantly. But, you know, I don't know what it's like to come from another place -- at all. It's kind of fascinating in some way.

CW:Well, I just want to ask one last question -- or actually, two.

SG:Mm.

CW:(laughs) But what do you see as the place of Yiddish within broader Jewish culture?

SG:As the place that it should be in or the place that it is in?

CW:First one and then the other. (laughter)

SG:Which do I do first? (laughs) I think it's marginalized. I think it continues to be marginalized. I think that I'm in a very protected pocket where I don't realize it as much. Because I've also really chosen the Jewish communities in which I function and live. And I also live in New York, which is very different. So, I think I'm quite protected. But I think that it continues to be marginalized, and I think that (pauses) -- I don't know if that's really ever 73:00gonna change. And I think the things that make it so great about it being open and (pauses) -- not -- not as -- it's not as clear, like, what Yiddish culture is, or what Yiddish is, you know? I think that that's great, but I think that that makes it not as easy for people to understand -- or, you know, people are sometimes looking for a book or a catalogue or a program, and I don't know how easy that is. (pauses) Yeah. Meanwhile, Jewish culture is really changing in the States anyway. I mean, you know, synagogue culture is really morphing and 74:00changing. And so, it's possible that more people will go and find more alternative ways to express their Jewish identity and to have a Jewish community. So, you know, why not Yiddish? And then, what was the other part of the question? So, that's what --

CW:What your vision would be -- what should it be, or could it be?

SG:I like it as being not standard and as being an alternative. I think that having alternatives is really important. And I do think that you can't really understand Jewish culture without having a knowledge of religion. So, I like the two existing. I wish that -- I mean, the money situation right now in the world, 75:00and -- but particularly in the States is really -- is very hard to separate out. You know, I would love there to be the opportunity for people to speak Yiddish and learn Yiddish in all major universities as a -- and there to be an accepted understanding that it is a (laughs) legitimate language with a really fascinating history and a wonderful, if not, you know, short (pauses) -- like, library of literature. So, that would be nice. And I don't -- it would be really 76:00lovely if even in like, day schools -- I mean, I think my goals are very small. I would like it that -- if in day schools, people learned Yiddish songs, not just on Holocaust Memorial Day or camps, and they weren't just funny -- or, you know, and it wasn't just "Chiribim" -- like, if there were a few. I think that that would actually go a huge way. And I don't really understand at all people's aversion to that, or why -- so I think that, you know, that. And then, like, more money. More money, more festivals. Yeah. I have small goals. I don't think I have any, like, great -- Yiddish take over the world, we all move to some great island and, you know, farm our own potatoes. (laughs) It's not happening 77:00for me. But -- 'cause I also do really believe that -- in diversity, and how important it is to be involved with lots of other people and aware of lots of other people and their struggles. And in the big scale of oppression and marginalization (pauses) -- I -- you know, linguistically, sure; within the Jewish community, sure; but when you're talking about other people's experiences, right now, where we live, it's not really high on my list of things that need to be done right now.

CW:And do you have -- what advice do you have for people entering this world?

SG:Just do it. Be brave and just jump in. And don't be afraid to make mistakes, and to just -- just do it. I mean, I wrote my first song -- and it's not like I'm not proud of it, you know? I wrote my first song without really knowing anything: lifting from stuff, using other people, and just doing it. And the -- waiting until you're perfect is -- it's not worth it. Just, like, go and make friends and play -- in, like, every sense of the word. I mean, I think being playful is really important. Ask tons of questions. And go. It's exciting. (laughs)

CW:Cool. Thank you.

SG:Thank you!

[END OF INTERVIEW]