MICHAEL WINOGRAD ORAL HISTORY

PAULINE KATZ: This is Pauline Katz and today is August 25th, 2011. I am here with Michael Winograd at KlezKanada in the Laurentians, in Canada, and we are here to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Michael Winograd, do I have your permission to record this interview?

MICHAEL WINOGRAD: Yes, you have my permission to record this interview.

PK:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].

MW:You bet!

PK:To begin with, could you tell me briefly what you know about your family's background?

MW:Briefly, what I know -- they are half of Russian descent, half of Polish descent. They came over to the United States before the war in the late 1800s. 1:00And yeah, what do you want to know?

PK:Do you have any stories that have been passed down from the Old Country?

MW:Not a whole lot. There was actually fairly -- a disconnect with that side of things. They were people who wanted to be Americans and they didn't really pass down much to their kids. So, that's my parents' generation. Doesn't know too much about that stuff, unfortunately for me. The one interesting thing that I suppose -- is my great-uncle, so that's my grandmother's brother on my father's side. He died about two years ago. But in his last year, he moved to a home in Brooklyn. So, I got to see more of him than I had in the past twenty-five-plus years. And what I did get was I got a bunch of photographs from him, really old photographs, which are very cool. I don't know much about them but I do have some excellent images on hand, which are pretty cool. But that's sort of almost 2:00my only connection to things old in that way.

PK:Did you grow up in a Jewish home?

MW:Jewish home, yes.

PK:Can you describe it?

MW:Your run-of-the-mill modern Long Island Jewish home. Went to Hebrew school. Went to shul on Saturdays until I started getting involved in music and didn't want to do that anymore. Attended Camp Ramah in the Berkshires, where I was taught Hebrew very poorly and thus cannot speak it today, except for just a few words here and there. My father listened to a lot of Mickey Katz and Irving Fields, which was interesting when I finally got to meet Irving Fields. That was pretty cool. Let's see -- I don't know. I think that's about it. (laughs)

PK:Can you describe a holiday?

MW:A holiday. Let's see. A Jewish holiday? Okay, a Jewish holiday. Passover is 3:00big. Passover. Many people came over to our house, in the thirty range, and this was mostly family because my mom has two siblings, father has one sibling. We're all very close. So, it was a big family. And yeah, it was a good time, especially when I was older than twelve. Then, it became a better time. (laughs)

PK:What made it a better time?

MW:Well, you know, I have older brothers and cousins, so you get it. (laughs)

PK:What was the music like in your home?

MW:My father listens to a lot of music, has a very big record collection. All sorts of music. A lot of classical music, a bunch of old Jewish music and folk music, Russian folk music he was really into and all sorts of stuff. And he played some piano, a little bit, and some guitar. Nothing much. But there was a 4:00lot of singing at holidays and stuff. Let's see, my aunt who married my mom's brother was a professional harpist. So, there is the only connection with a professional musician in my family, but I'm very close with her and she's very cool. She played in an orchestra under Stravinsky back in the day and toured with Bette Midler. So, there you have it. So, that's pretty cool. And I guess besides for her, I was the only professional musician or the only real practiced musician. And yeah, and people seem to like that. Enough on the family, so, yeah.

PK:What instruments did you play?

MW:I started on piano. I then took up saxophone in school and later started playing clarinet, which I focused on in college, and that sort of is what I play for the most part.

PK:Why do you think you started?

MW:Music in general? I like music. (laughs) It's fun. It's a good time. And I started piano lessons when I was three or four, very young, and basically, I just played piano all day for many, many years. I didn't really practice, but I banged on the thing a lot and that was, I guess, the first, earliest musical experience I had.

PK:Can you describe the community you grew up in?

MW:Hm, the community I grew up in. Well, I went to public school in Long Island. I didn't love it. Actually, I really disliked it for, yeah, the whole time, basically. It's Long Island, it has its issues. It's public school. They have their issues. There was a music program that was pretty good. But once I started doing things that were outside their curriculum, they weren't too embracive. So, that was that. The friends that I had from Camp Ramah were very close for a long 6:00time. So, they were sort of my closest pals, had a very close family, so it wasn't so bad that school sucked. But it did.

PK:Can you describe Camp Ramah?

MW:Camp Ramah in the Berkshires, you know, it's your Jewish summer camp. I don't know, it's a cool place, I suppose. I made a lot of friends there when I was younger. And ultimately, that's where I met the people who introduced me to klezmer music, so I guess it's a good thing that I went there, yeah.

PK:Were there any organizations or institutions that your parents were involved in?

MW:Other than PTA, none that I can remember of.

PK:And just briefly, what is your education in Jewish and secular or otherwise?

MW:Oh, education-wise -- I guess basically what, right, I told you that I went 7:00to Hebrew school, all that stuff. And then, they teach you a lot of stuff at Camp Ramah. Some of it's good, a lot of it is questionable, especially politically questionable. But good to know that that kind of thing is being taught and know what you're either dealing with or up against. As far as the secular Jewish world that we deal with here at places like KlezKanada and KlezKamp and the klezmer and Yiddish scene at large, I started coming to them when I was fourteen, but before then, I didn't have any connection to them. I guess my grandparents remember the Workmen's Circle, but it wasn't too big of a part of their life. So, I didn't really know about it much until I was a teenager.

PK:So, what happened when you were fourteen?

MW:When I was fourteen. Well, I guess it really started, I'm gonna have to take you all the way back to when I was thirteen. Thirteen years old, my friend 8:00Joseph Dopkin from Camp Ramah in the Berkshires. Well, let's see, I had been playing saxophone and had just gone to my first klezmer concert, I believe, in New York City. And liked it enough, it was pretty cool. And my friend Joseph at Camp Ramah in the Berkshires told me that his parents and him had been going to a klezmer camp called KlezKamp in the Catskills since he was a kid. His mom taught folklore there and he said, "You should come." And so, I went. And I went that following winter, when I was fourteen years old. I think it was 1996. And, yeah, that's how I started going there. It was pretty quick. My parents have never gone. They didn't go then. And I just sort of was a kid running around like an idiot when I was there. And it was very fun and I had a good time. And I'm still going, so --

PK:Can you describe KlezKamp in those days?

MW:In those days -- for a fourteen-year-old, it's very fun. There was a good 9:00amount of kids my age, so it was lots of fun and I think -- I'm not sure if I was part of Jenny Romaine's teen theater program, but I feel like I interacted with it a lot. And the good part about going then was that I had gone early enough to be able to study with Sid Beckerman, who was my first teacher there. And he was an old-timer who played clarinet and it was sort of amazing to have him as a first experience. And I was lucky that I went early enough, 'cause he stopped going maybe my third or fourth year that I was there and he's passed on since. But as a kid, I got to just meet all of these amazing people, many of them who aren't around anymore. So, it was great getting to go then, and I sort of grew up in this world. Musically, at least, if not more so, yeah.

PK:Can you describe your relationship with Yiddish?

MW:The language or in general? Or whatever it means?

PK:Let's do the language first.

MW:I do not speak Yiddish. However, I understand more than I think I do, just from having been around it. I travel a lot to Germany to play music and it helps me a lot because the amount that I understand helps me understand a lot of German there. So, I guess that's convenient. And even though I don't speak it, I feel like I do because it's the world that I exist in musically and personally. And so, I should probably learn it. That would be a good thing to do. A lot of people have told me I should do that but I haven't yet. Maybe one day, yeah.

PK:Why are they encouraging you to speak Yiddish?

MW:Well, many reasons. Michael Alpert says it'd be great to learn the secret language. Also, for someone who doesn't speak the language, I have gotten into Yiddish poetry a lot, even though I don't speak it. So, it would probably be 11:00good to understand the first language it's written in other than the translations. And I also deal a lot with Yiddish songs. Again, it would be very helpful if I understood the language to deal with those. And if a community that you exist in has a code, it's good to know the code.

PK:And your relationship to Yiddish, the culture?

MW:Ah, Yiddish the culture. Well, I would say that the majority of my closest friends, who have become my family, are in this world. I work professionally in this world a hundred percent of the time. And between those two things, that's sort of my life. And it's a good one. And also, having grown up in the mainstream Jewish community and having had my issues with it, some not so great, 12:00it provided an alternative for it. And it's great to be a part of. I'm very happy to be a part of it. So, yeah.

PK:So, what is Yiddish culture?

MW:I don't know. (laughs) I don't know, what's Yiddish culture? (laughs) That's right. If you say it's one thing, then it makes it another thing. And if you say it's another thing, it makes it one thing. From my standpoint, it's sort of just what I do and I don't know if I'd really be able to describe it. But I know that I'm a part of it and I know that I wonder what I'd be doing if I wasn't. Maybe I'd be an accountant. That doesn't sound so fun.

PK:What was your family's reaction to you living in this world?

MW:Well, I'd say that they like it a lot. They like the music that I make, they 13:00like the people who I've introduced them to. I think they are cool with me being a musician now. I think it took a while, especially for my mom. She wanted me to go to Northwestern. I didn't end up going to Northwestern. But I imagine it's hard for parents, for them to have musician kids, because it's hard to be a musician. And it's also hard for parents to do that because sometimes they don't see that you can deal with less money. (laughs) But you know, you don't make a ton of money being a musician, but it's okay. And I'd say the hardest part about -- well, the second hardest part about not making much money is that you have to deal with your parents telling you that you don't make much money. So, for what it's worth, that. (laughs)

PK:All right, I'd like to continue the discussion about your work.

MW:Okay.

PK:What would you say your basic collaborators are? Who are your basic --

MW:What would I say my basic collaborators are? Who would I say my basic collaborators are? Okay, well, for the work that I do of my own creation, I have a group of my own that is usually a trio with another person that you've interviewed, Benjy Fox-Rosen, and an accordionist in New York named Patrick Farrell. And we do a lot of collaborative work. We develop music together as a trio and we play it a lot, all over the place. And it's a klezmer group that Benjy also sings some of his original songs in Yiddish in. However, we have used 15:00a lot of elements of outside music to sort of build our thing, a lot of elements of minimalist contemporary classical music, of jazz, maybe, of the music that's being made in New York right now. There's a lot around us, so we try to take in what we can. So, that's my group. We'll be recording soon with some more people. Yay, recording. And then, I also work with a lot of other people. I work with Adrienne Cooper, who sings. I'm her music director and we put out a record last year of the repertoire she's been working with and she sort of put it in my hands a little bit to sort of tinker with the sounds and the arrangements and all that kind of thing to bring it out. But that's sort of a wonderful project. 16:00I've worked a lot with Daniel Kahn. He's a singer in Berlin. I'm in Socalled's band. He mixes hip-hop and klezmer music and he raps in Yiddish sometimes. And that's a good one. And a bunch of others here and there. I could go on for a while, but --

PK:Now, with the Michael Winograd Trio --

MW:Oh, yeah.

PK:-- can you describe what goes into deciding a song to sing, or what is the collaboration?

MW:We bring stuff in and we read it a bunch and we'll try it out. And I think that we are all on the same page about giving anything a chance. We're pretty open to that, so if someone brings something in, we will at least perform it a couple times. And, I mean, it started with me bringing in the repertoire and then Benjy and now all of us do. And we try to work things out and bring to it 17:00what each of us can and build it so we're all happy with it. I think that we're at a point now where we sort of know it's gonna work. So, we haven't brought in anything recently, I would say, that doesn't really work.

PK:Can you describe something you brought in that did work, like a specific song?

MW:Well, let's see. Well, I was working a lot with -- I'm in Benjy's band, as well. This is interesting, is that we have a number of bands that basically have the same people in it, more or less. But I was in Benjy's band and we worked out his songs in a way that was very appropriate for his band and for how he presents his music. When we brought it into my group, we had to make some changes, some musical changes, because we sort of present things differently. Plus, we wanted to integrate it into the other music that we play. We try to put together these long, elaborate, elaborative -- forget that word. We try to put together these long sets that go from one thing to another and incorporate 18:00different musics and try to match things that you would think would work and then match things that wouldn't necessarily work and try to make them work. So, we changed up some of the ways that we had done some of this music before. Also, I think that having -- I see the way Benjy writes, I see the way Patrick writes. They see how I write and between that, we bring things in that we think will work well for the three of us. And also, we bring in a lot. We're constantly adding new things, which is good, I think, for the most part. Sometimes, we take on a little bit too much but it's a good thing for us, I believe.

PK:So, you mentioned some of where you got your training. Was it only at KlezKamp?

MW:Well, I would say for this kind of music, it started at KlezKamp in the Catskills. It then continued at the New England Conservatory, where I went to 19:00college. I was studying with Hankus Netsky there. I met him at KlezKamp. I also, around the time I was fifteen, started studying with Matt Darriau, a clarinetist and saxophonist in New York. He plays with the Klezmatics. So, I was going to Brooklyn to study with him. And from there, I started going to KlezKanada in about 2002 or so and teaching at these places, as well, now. And then, just by playing the music and listening to the music and writing the music and talking about the music and arguing with people about the music, that's sort of how you learn it. But I would say the big institutions that I learned at over the course of my formative years were KlezKamp, KlezKanada, New England Conservatory, Matt Darriau. I also studied with Andy Statman when I was a teenager in Brooklyn. So, yeah, there was a lot of people. And Sid Beckerman, outside of KlezKamp, I would go visit him in New York, as well. And so, I had a lot of people who were 20:00helping me out, which was very good.

PK:Can you describe going from student to teacher?

MW:Student to teacher. What's great about this community is that's something that they really push or that we really push is there's a whole contingent of people who I grew up with here and who I knew as kids and who I knew as kids who I met at my first KlezKamp, people like Jake Shulman-Ment. We are roughly the same age and I met him at, I believe, my first KlezKamp. And we were kids running around and acting like idiots there and now we're teaching here. Who knew? But it's one of these things where you learn for a while and then the staff drags you onto stage and you play with them and you're really intimidated and then you start getting used to it. And then, they ask you to start working for free. And then, they ask you to work for free a number more times until you say, "Hey, I think that it's time that I work for real." And then, they say, Yeah, I think so. And what was great, also, is that teaching is still learning. 21:00When I first started teaching at KlezKanada, I was team teaching with Kurt Bjorling, who was one of the greatest teachers I've ever had here. And I learned so much just by teaching with him how to teach and what you can learn from your students along with what you can teach to your students. So, I think that it's a really amazing, organic way that people go from being a student to a teacher here. And it's pretty special.

PK:How do you decide what to teach?

MW:Wow. Hm. I don't know. I think you develop something. Every person has their style. Every person has what they like, what they want to give to people and it's different all around. And so, after years of sort of developing your own thing, you say, This is what will work for me. So, for a while, I was teaching a big band that just learned tunes by listening at both KlezKamp and KlezKanada, 22:00'cause I had all these tunes that I wanted people to learn and I wanted people to play and that seemed to be the best way to do it. This year, I'm not doing that. I'm teaching a composition class after making this recording in September of music that I've been writing for the last four, five years. I was like, Wow, I want to teach that kind of stuff. I want people to be doing this. So, I think it's related to the things that you do in your professional life, as well, as to what you want to teach.

PK:Now, back to Yiddish culture, what is interesting about this music?

MW:I don't know. Well, I don't know. Let's edit that out. Well, (laughs) it's one of these things where on one end, it's not different than any other music. It speaks to you as any music does. I went to this first concert of mine, this 23:00first klezmer concert when I was thirteen years old and it was actually fairly avant-garde klezmer music. It was part of a jazz festival in New York City, Lower East Side. And it spoke to me. It spoke to me like the first time I heard jazz, like the first time I heard Beethoven, like the first time I heard the Rolling Stones or something like that, something really fresh and special and unique. So, like any other music, it has its vocabulary, it has its sound, it has the things that it does differently from other types of music. On the other hand, it also has a cultural connection. There's cultural connections involved. And that's the interesting one, because there's always the question: does it speak more to me than it can speak to someone else because I grew up with the sounds of my grandparents and great-grandparents speaking Yiddish maybe a little 24:00bit. Even though they spoke very little, they spoke a little bit. Does it speak to me more because my father listened to Mickey Katz when I was a kid? I don't know. And then, on the other hand -- but then the terrible argument comes up, well, is klezmer music for the Jews, which that's absolutely not the case. And the best musicians playing it are very often not Jewish or didn't come from a particularly Jewish background. And so, I don't know what draws people to this type of music or to any type of music. And maybe it's just a coincidence that I'm a Jew who's drawn to Jewish music, 'cause I could easily be a Jew who's drawn to calypso or drawn to avant-garde film or anything. So, there's your answer.

PK:What is it -- I mean, in the translations of Yiddish poetry that you're 25:00reading, what is interesting for you in it?

MW:I was really into it towards the end of college and when I moved to New York, and I suppose that I really liked it because of how dark and somber it was. And it reminded me of -- I was reading a lot of Anne Sexton at some point, which is pretty depressing and amazing and beautiful. And I remember that the vibe reminded me of that. I don't know why. Even though they were talking about things that you might not assoc-- I mean, I was reading some Yiddish poetry, I don't even remember who it was by, this is a long time ago, and it had some sort of Biblical references in it. But the way that it was being used were so sort of creepy and morbid. And I was like, Wow that's part of this. And I try to keep my 26:00ears open musically to all sorts of music. And I was like, If that's part of the language, then it's part of the culture and then it's also part of the music. And so often, the music is described as happy, joyous dance music, but there's all these sounds. This is a people with a dark past, and so the palette is just opened. And I like the idea of having a wide and open palette to use in art creation and things like that.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

PK:So, can you remember or describe a particularly meaningful performance?

MW:Of anyone's?

PK:Of anyone's.

MW:Yeah, many. Many. Let's see. I remember that, at an early KlezKamp, I was 27:00studying with Sid Beckerman and he taught me a number of songs, some of the first tunes that I learned. And then, that night, they were having dancing that night, and Merlin Shepherd, who was a younger clarinetist who's in his forties now, I suppose -- and he was also teaching there at the time. And he's super cool. And he was playing the dance set that night. And he played a bunch of those tunes. And it was sort of this thing that was like, Wow, that's amazing. He wasn't in the class. (laughs) And it wasn't so much that -- I wasn't surprised that he knew the tunes. That wasn't it, but it was just like, yeah, he's playing these tunes that he also learned from Sid and there's all these people who learned so much from this guy. And that was an early one. That was an early KlezKamp performance memory that was really nice. I remember being very 28:00happy about that. It was cool, yeah.

PK:And one of your own performances?

MW:Particularly memorable? Hm, I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of them. (laughs) There's a lot of them. I've had the chance to play at a lot of festivals, in places that I never really thought that I would go. Well, that I thought I wouldn't go, but that I was very fortunate to go to. With Socalled, we travel around and we played at the Dawson City Music Festival in the Yukon a couple years ago, which was totally crazy. Where is that? Where is Dawson City? I don't know. But it's super far north and the sun didn't go down and it was amazing. And then, I think just a couple months before that, we gave a workshop and a concert in Reunion Island, which is less than a hundred miles from 29:00Madagascar. And I was like, Wow, I'm teaching people klezmer here. And then, we played for them that night and it was amazing. Another one of the great musical experiences I had was going on tour with Budowitz, which is a band that's lead by Josh Horowitz, who I met at KlezKamp who teaches here at KlezKanada and at KlezKamp. And their repertoire is amazing. And they asked me to sub on a tour for them once. And they said, Yeah, the tour's gonna be in seven months. Learn the music. And so, I got the CDs and it took me the whole time to learn it. And then, we got there and I didn't have any rehearsals. And we played these amazing shows at the Montreal Baroque Festival, which is a crazy, wild, amazing festival, and some other places. And that was amazing, too. And the stories go on. But for all the things that are hard about being a musician, the pros heavily outweigh the cons and those performances, along with others, were some 30:00of the highlights.

PK:What are people's reactions to your music?

MW:To the music I make or to my music in general? Or to both, I suppose? Let's see. For the most part, they like it. (laughs) For the most part, they like it. Sometimes, you get the overly emotional nostalgic reaction from people. Oh, you're playing the music that I remember from my childhood, which I really just don't imagine is true anymore, because the people who come to my concerts aren't really all that old and the people who are saying this to me are really, at most, only ten years older than my parents and I know that that's not the music of my parents' childhood. But that's nice. Over in Europe, it's a very different reaction and you know that that's gonna be a very political issue. But it's always very nice that people come out to hear -- they're very responsive to 31:00klezmer music there. And in Germany, it's especially interesting if you're performing music in Yiddish because the whole audience understands what you're singing or what your singer is singing. And yeah, I would say that I've been fortunate to have the majority of people's reactions to my music being very positive and that's pretty great. I imagine I'd be a pretty sad person (laughs) if it was negative reactions.

PK:Why do you think people come out to hear these concerts?

MW:Why do people come out to hear concerts? I don't know. Who can even afford to come out to concerts anymore? I don't know. I had a teacher in college who I was studying improvisation with who told me that his uncle was a musician during the Great Depression. And the guy made hundreds of dollars a week, which is insane. 32:00And the reason he made a hundred dollars a week was because even in the Great Depression, what people did spend, the little amount of money they had, was on going to hear music and going out to shows and on things that made their life as normal as possible. People go to hear music because it makes their life normal and it's their connection to something real. And there's people who have jobs that have no personal connection, I imagine. I mean, I guess that's a bit of a jerky thing to say but from my perspective -- and when they come out and they listen to music, they are getting a genuine experience. It's the same thing as reading a great book. It's the same thing as going to see a good film, hopefully. I hope.

PK:As a performer of Yiddish music, what was it like to travel for the first 33:00time to somewhere like Germany or Krakow for the Ashkenaz Festival, Krakow, wherever?

MW:Well, for a long time, I heard my grandfather who fought in World War II say that he would never step foot back in Germany, which is a very normal thing for someone of his generation. I never thought that. I never had that kind of sentiment. And by the time I was getting ready to start doing international touring, I was so excited about it that those type of issues were not part of what I was thinking. And I really don't think that they generally are, because when you go to tour in places where people expect that there is anti-Semitism 34:00and where they know there has been anti-Semitism, you may experience it and we all have from time to time. But the fact of the matter is the people who are coming out to hear you and the people who have brought you over and the people who are paying you and the people who are housing you and the people who are involved in any way in your performance are so excited by your presence and they have worked so hard to get you there that you really don't experience anything but total sincerity and genuine goodness from them. The experiences of playing music in places outside of your regular sort of habitat is amazing. It's amazing to go over and there's people who are there who know your music and there's people there who don't know your music. And it's an amazing way to connect to a large amount of people that most professions don't really give you the 35:00opportunity to do. So, I'm extremely fortunate to have played in the vast amount of places that I have. It's good.

PK:Where would you consider the capital of Yiddish music?

MW:Brooklyn. (laughs)

PK:Why Brooklyn?

MW:Because it's Brooklyn. Come on, what are you talking about, why Brooklyn? I live on Coney Island Avenue in Brooklyn, and from one end is the -- I live right where Borough Park begins in one direction. And then, about half a mile from me is where Midwood begins. And then, if you were to take a train twenty minutes, you would have where Williamsburg begins and -- it's a little overwhelming, I got to say. But it's where people speak the language. And the funny part is that 36:00the people who play klezmer music really aren't even involved, or we don't have a relationship with these people. However, along with all of that is that there's a ton of the musicians who are making this music living there. People can't really afford to live in Manhattan anymore, so they live in Brooklyn. The amount of musicians that live in Brooklyn is extraordinary, ridiculous. It's crazy how many musicians live there, playing every type of music that you could imagine. I live in an area called Ditmas Park, which I'm not sure is now, but a couple years ago, they were doing polling about ethnic diversity and this was the most ethnically diverse neighborhood in the country. And it's amazing! It's amazing because of that kind of thing. You get so many different types of people doing so many different types of things. So, not only is it the epicenter of Yiddish culture. Oh, I can't say that. That's a really obnoxious thing to say, 37:00that it's in Brooklyn. But it's absolutely in Brooklyn. So, I guess you'll have to see for yourself why. But that's as good of an answer as I can give you.

PK:Do you ever perform with non-Yiddish musicians?

MW:Yes, I do. I've been part of a bunch of improvised music things and people have composed music. And there's a couple of Israeli artists who I play with as well. But the majority of what I do is related to klezmer music and things that are associated with it, yeah.

PK:Let's start talking about this revival.

MW:Which revival? (laughs) The klezmer revival?

PK:The klezmer revival.

MW:Okay.

PK:Would you say that there was -- does a klezmer revival exist?

MW:Does it -- I always had trouble considering myself part of the klezmer 38:00revival, 'cause I felt like the klezmer revival meant not just playing the music but working so hard to preserve the music because if you didn't, it wouldn't be around. And by the time I got to the scene, it was established or it felt to me like it was established. And so, that was in the mid-'90s. And now, fifteen or so years later, it really doesn't feel like a revival, like it's in a revival anymore. I feel like I was fortunate enough to come to it in a time when I had the freedom to not have to work that hard to do it, because working that hard to do it, while extremely rewarding, it could be limiting in some ways. I don't know what those ways are, I wasn't part of it, but I feel like it could be limiting in ways where you need to constantly be working to sell yourself in certain ways in order to just be able to play the music. So, was there a 39:00revival? Yes. Does it exist now? I imagine a lot of people have different arguments about that. I sort of feel like it does not because I'm not part of it. Thus, who is? Thus, is it still happening or have we moved past it or is it just in a phase of it that doesn't take that kind of work? I'm not sure. But it certainly existed. It's the reason why it's here now. So, yeah.

PK:And what have you created that you think is important for the klezmer world?

MW:What have I created? Well, what always excites me is that I work with musicians who are multigenerational. Yes, my trio is made up of people who are 40:00under thirty-three years old. However, I played in Budowitz with Cookie Segelstein and Josh Horowitz. And I play with Frank London and people in the Klezmatics and that scene and Michael Alpert and Adrienne Cooper, of that generation. I got to study with Sid Beckerman and Howie Leess and Ray Musiker and so many of these great -- Paul Pincus, German Goldenshteyn, these musicians of that generation. So, I think that -- I don't know if that's a concrete thing, but I feel like that's important. I don't know why it's important, but I feel like that is important, that I was fortunate to be around in a time where I have that link to things and that I get to regularly perform with people who have experiences that aren't necessarily readily available these days to younger 41:00musicians because the times are different. And in other scenes, other musical scenes, you might not get to do that so often. You may only get to spend time and play music with your contemporaries, as opposed to people from another time, people of other scenes, people who are older than you, people who are younger than you. Along with all those people, I get to teach people who are younger than me. So, it's pretty cool. So, maybe that's something to offer.

PK:What is the role of the performing artist in the transmission of culture? Or are they involved in the transmission of culture?

MW:Well, sometimes they are the poster child of the transmission of culture. And as a performer, I'm also a teacher. There's this whole thing about that you're never just a performer. You're an artist, you're a scholar, and you are a 42:00teacher, and you need to be all three. To what extent, that differs amongst different people. But it is your job, whether you like it or not, to be the vehicle for this culture, this music, this language, all of this. And I don't think anyone doesn't like that. I think we all are really into that. But it's not just like you find a music and you play it. All of a sudden, you have a responsibility. And it's not as if that responsibility is a very daunting task, to make it come across, but it certainly is something and we feel it all the time, yeah.

PK:Do you consider yourself an activist?

MW:(laughs) Kind of. If I say yes, that's gonna lead to -- I'm gonna be thinking 43:00about it all night. To an extent. I would say that I am -- unfortunately, the word activist comes from the word active. So, I agree with most of the things that my activist friends -- well, I guess I'm an activist. I don't know. What does that mean? Why, what's an activist?

PK:I was actually going to ask you what do you consider about your activist friends -- what is an activist?

MW:I don't know what an activist is. But whatever it is, I am one. (laughs) Or I know exactly what an activist is, and I am not one of those. (laughs)

PK:Okay, describe what you're not.

MW:I don't know.

PK:Okay.

MW:I don't know.

PK:All right. (laughter) What are some challenges in teaching Yiddish topics?

MW:Can I change the question to what are the challenges of teaching klezmer music, since that --

PK:Yes.

MW:-- usually is what I am doing? The biggest challenges right now that I'm seeing is that there is a trend of only learning this music to a certain extent. When people learn jazz, they learn it inside out. They can name all the recordings, they could talk about recordings from the historical recordings, the modern recordings. They know the music inside out. When people are learning klezmer, they tend to -- well, they don't tend to, but one issue, one problem, one challenge is that people often disregard some of the depth of the music. And not in a malicious way, but maybe it's difficult to learn it. Plus, because it's 45:00related to these other musics, often the differences might be disregarded. So, there's a lot of people who play Balkan music and klezmer music and gypsy music and Russian music. And sometimes, some of these people in their playing of these sound the same amongst the different genres. I'm not saying that that's problematic. However, if people want to learn the music and they only have a grasp of a certain part of it, the rest of it, the depth of the music, the real meaty parts of it sort of becomes a slap in the face. It's like, Wow, what the hell is that and what does it mean and how do you explain it? And because the folk music -- I mean, how do you teach a folk music, how do you teach a folk 46:00tradition? These are issues. But, on the other hand, the places where I end up teaching this music, places like KlezKanada, KlezKamp, the institutions that I've taught in in Europe, like in Paris and in Weimar and all this stuff, the people who are tending to learn are so excited to learn that these issues really become non-issues because they just want to get past them and they want to really do it. And they come to study with you and they come because they want to learn your thing and they're so excited about it. So, the challenges are quickly outdone by the enthusiasm and the want of, yeah, that.

PK:Can you describe how the klezmer scene has changed since you were fourteen?

MW:It's gotten bigger. Well, it's gotten wider. There are klezmer bands everywhere you look now. I was, with my trio, we were brought to Newfoundland and St. John's because there's a klezmer band there that wanted to put on concerts for us and have us give them clinics. I don't know if that was the case a little while ago, that you have klezmer bands in a place like that. As I said earlier, I gave a clinic in Africa, in Reunion Island. Well, it's technically France, but it's basically Africa. I think that the demographic of it has definitely grown. I think that there's musical trends that are always changing. I don't know if there's some sort of formula to how they've changed. But there's definitely musical trends that are always changing, plus --

PK:What are we in right now?

MW:Blue period? I don't know. What are we in right now? There seems to be a neotraditional thing going on with string music and Moldavian music that seems to really be in right now. I know that I am in a personal trend of -- I guess I don't know that I'm in a personal trend of anything, now that I think about it. Oh well, I don't know what I'm in. But there's definitely musical trends. But I think all the things that were great about it at the time that I came in are still here. And the things that are repetitive are repetitive for a reason, because they work and they're great. And I think, also, that there's always more and more people involved, so you're constantly getting young people who are very 49:00inspiring, you get people who are new to the scene, who bring something new to it and give you new ideas. And yeah, I think that it's grown very nicely.

PK:What do you think the klezmers' attitudes towards Yiddish, how have those changed?

MW:The klezmers? You mean the musicians?

PK:Yes.

MW:Well, unfortunately, there's too many people like me who play the music full-time and really care about it but haven't gone the distance to learn the language. It's unfortunate. At least I'm aware of it. There's probably a lot of musicians who aren't even aware that it's important, that the language is important. But most people playing klezmer music -- and by most, I mean the vast majority of people playing klezmer music do not speak the language, which is too bad. It's a bummer. And it would be nice. I don't think it is an attitude that has -- there's any negativity towards the language. But I just think that it's a 50:00task that hasn't been met by too many performers of the music, especially too many performers, and especially instrumentalists who don't sing. Very few, if any, that I've met who have learned Yiddish after the fact. It's too bad.

PK:In your perspective, what is the place of klezmer in a broader Jewish culture?

MW:Well, we always hope that it will be embraced by the mainstream Jewish scene, wherever we are. Sometimes, it's the case, sometimes surprisingly it's the case. Sometimes we're like, Wow, you do get embraced by the Jewish scene at large. However, often, that's not what happens and we feel like we're sort of the weird 51:00cousin who gets left behind. And maybe that's just the musicians and the people involved speaking because it's never enough. But, on the other hand, I think that people see that there is a divide between the klezmer Yiddish world and the rest of the Jewish world. Maybe it's a good thing, though. I'm sure equal amount of good things have come of that as bad things. So, I don't think there's too much to complain about it. However, there is lots of funding from the mainstream Jewish world that we don't really get a part of too often. So, it would be nice if they gave us their money.

PK:So, we're nearing the end.

MW:Okay.

PK:But I have couple more --

MW:All right.

PK:-- questions, things. But I'd first like to ask if there are any topics or 52:00stories that you wanted to tell?

MW:Hm. Caught me off guard there. I don't know, maybe keep asking the questions; if I think of something, I'll interrupt you.

PK:Sounds great.

MW:Okay.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

PK:Can you tell me about your work with Yiddish Princess?

MW:Yiddish Princess is the best band in the world. It is a heavy metal band in the language of Yiddish, featuring Sarah Gordon. An onslaught of electric guitars. Pulsing synths, ad nauseum. Drums that will beat you to a pulp of beauty. And we are taking over the world of Yiddish.

PK:Where did it come from?

MW:Where did it come from? Okay, so where did it come from? I am twenty-eight years old and I grew up listening to rock in the '80s with cheesy-ass 53:00synthesizers and drum machines. And Sarah Gordon, my very, very close pal, who lives around the block from me in Brooklyn, who is the daughter of Adrienne Cooper -- and a fabulous Yiddish singer she is -- we've written music together. So, I've written music, she's written lyrics, and a couple years back, it just sort of happened, first as a joke. We had a gig that Itzik Gottesman set up for us playing Yiddish Passover music at some point. And we were like, Well, why don't I just play synthesizers and you can sing? And then, the next time we played, we're like, Well, why don't we add our friend Avi Fox-Rosen in electric guitar? And then, all of a sudden, we were a six-piece band that was playing some pretty hard-hitting heavy metal. And it's been embraced pretty well. We're starting to play all over the place and it's a pretty decent band, I gotta say. It's not too shabby. We got a CD. It's nice. We have a really, really fabulous 54:00logo. It's pink. And yeah, and we're glamorous.

PK:Have you heard of the other heavy metal Yiddish --

MW:There's a couple.

PK:Oh?

MW:There's a couple, yeah. There's one Scandinavian band, I forget where they come from, and they have an amazing version of "Afn veg [On the road]" that I want to rip off. There's also a band called Gevolt in Israel. You've heard of them? Yeah? And what's interesting about Gevolt, so they do "Tumbalalaika," (whispers) but they do it like the Barry Sisters did it. It's amazing. You have to wonder where these guys got their records. So, yeah, our idea is was that we would hook up with these bands and put together a caravan of amazingness with them. But, yeah --

PK:So --

MW:-- it's pretty fun to play Yiddish heavy metal.

PK:-- why do you think all these bands -- they seem to have appeared out of nowhere with --

MW:I don't think it's so many. I think there being three is a very, very small -- why? Because we grew up listening to heavy metal. We grew up as heavy metal kids and listening to Metallica and Nirvana and hard rock. And if you think 55:00about this music historically, you think pre-war to how all of these klezmer musicians were mixing swing and klezmer, it makes total sense that we would do it with rock. Now, is it a gimmick? Yeah, it's a gimmick. But it's a pretty fun gimmick. And I don't think that it's -- it's pretty sincere, too. We're not fooling around here. It's not a joke. And it works. It actually, surprisingly works pretty well. I guess the challenge is making it work, though, because you can't just put a rock beat behind a Yiddish folk song. You've got to figure how it works. What we found that's working great is that there's all these contemporary Yiddish writers. Some are of our generation, some are very old. But because the music and the lyrics have been written in the recent past ten, 56:00twenty years, it all connects together in this sort of contemporary sound. So, it gives us a lot to work with. So, it's worth doing for the time being, I'd say.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

PK:What advice do you have for aspiring artists or future generations?

MW:Okay, don't get too stressed out by your parents and just go with your gut. I don't know how I actually got here, but I got here and it's good and one thing has led to another and I'm really happy it has. And I'm happy about the risks that I've taken and I'm glad they happened. And yeah, just nothing is ever too weird. Nothing is ever too normal. Nothing is ever too conservative. Nothing is ever too liberal. It's all part of one thing. That's weird. That's some hippie stuff, isn't it? But, yeah, you bet. (laughs) Just do it. Nike. Just do it. (laughs)

PK:Thank you very much.

MW:Yeah, you bet. (laughs)

[END OF INTERVIEW]