Keywords:Andy Statman; careers; Catskill Mountains; Catskills; Hankus Netsky; Jake Shulman-Ment; KlezKamp; KlezKanada; Kurt Bjorling; learning music; Matt Darriau; music composition; music student; music teachers; musical background; musical influences; New England Conservatory; professional life; Sid Beckerman; the Klezmatics
Keywords:Boro Park; Borough Park, New York; Brooklyn, New York; Chasidic; Chasidim; Chasidism; Chassidic; Chassidim; Chassidism; Coney Island Avenue, New York; cultural diversity; Ditmas Park, New York; ethnic diversity; Hasidic; Hasidim; Hasidism; Hassidic; Hassidim; Hassidism; khasidizm; khsidish; linguistic diversity; Midwood, New York; multiculturalism; musicians; New York City; Orthodox Jewry; Yiddish capitals; Yiddish centers; Yiddish language; Yiddish music; Yiddish speakers
Keywords:activism; activists; artists; Balkan music; cultural transmission; folk cultures; folk music; folk traditions; klezmer music; learning music; music scholars; music teachers; musical artists; musical performers; Roma music; Russian music; studying music; teacher; teaching; Yiddish culture; Yiddish language; Yiddish music
Keywords:"Afn veg shteyt a boym (By the road stands a tree)""; "Tum balalaika (Play the balalaika)"; Adrienne Cooper; advice; aspiring artists; Avi Fox-Rosen; contemporary Yiddish culture; Dibbukim band; electric guitars; future generations; Gevolt band; hard rock; heavy metal band; heavy metal music; Israeli Yiddish culture; Itzik Gottesman; Metallica band; Nirvana band; Sarah Gordon; Swedish Yiddish culture; swing music; underground music; Yiddish alternative music; Yiddish folk music; Yiddish folk songs; Yiddish heavy metal; Yiddish language; Yiddish music; Yiddish Princess band; Yiddish singers
PAULINE KATZ: This is Pauline Katz and today is August 25th, 2011. I am here
with Michael Winograd at KlezKanada in the Laurentians, in Canada, and we arehere to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler OralHistory Project. Michael Winograd, do I have your permission to record this interview?
MICHAEL WINOGRAD: Yes, you have my permission to record this interview.
PK:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].
MW:You bet!
PK:To begin with, could you tell me briefly what you know about your family's background?
MW:Briefly, what I know -- they are half of Russian descent, half of Polish
descent. They came over to the United States before the war in the late 1800s. 1:00And yeah, what do you want to know?
PK:Do you have any stories that have been passed down from the Old Country?
MW:Not a whole lot. There was actually fairly -- a disconnect with that side of
things. They were people who wanted to be Americans and they didn't really passdown much to their kids. So, that's my parents' generation. Doesn't know toomuch about that stuff, unfortunately for me. The one interesting thing that Isuppose -- is my great-uncle, so that's my grandmother's brother on my father'sside. He died about two years ago. But in his last year, he moved to a home inBrooklyn. So, I got to see more of him than I had in the past twenty-five-plusyears. And what I did get was I got a bunch of photographs from him, really oldphotographs, which are very cool. I don't know much about them but I do havesome excellent images on hand, which are pretty cool. But that's sort of almost 2:00my only connection to things old in that way.
PK:Did you grow up in a Jewish home?
MW:Jewish home, yes.
PK:Can you describe it?
MW:Your run-of-the-mill modern Long Island Jewish home. Went to Hebrew school.
Went to shul on Saturdays until I started getting involved in music and didn'twant to do that anymore. Attended Camp Ramah in the Berkshires, where I wastaught Hebrew very poorly and thus cannot speak it today, except for just a fewwords here and there. My father listened to a lot of Mickey Katz and IrvingFields, which was interesting when I finally got to meet Irving Fields. That waspretty cool. Let's see -- I don't know. I think that's about it. (laughs)
PK:Can you describe a holiday?
MW:A holiday. Let's see. A Jewish holiday? Okay, a Jewish holiday. Passover is
3:00big. Passover. Many people came over to our house, in the thirty range, and thiswas mostly family because my mom has two siblings, father has one sibling. We'reall very close. So, it was a big family. And yeah, it was a good time,especially when I was older than twelve. Then, it became a better time. (laughs)
PK:What made it a better time?
MW:Well, you know, I have older brothers and cousins, so you get it. (laughs)
PK:What was the music like in your home?
MW:My father listens to a lot of music, has a very big record collection. All
sorts of music. A lot of classical music, a bunch of old Jewish music and folkmusic, Russian folk music he was really into and all sorts of stuff. And heplayed some piano, a little bit, and some guitar. Nothing much. But there was a 4:00lot of singing at holidays and stuff. Let's see, my aunt who married my mom'sbrother was a professional harpist. So, there is the only connection with aprofessional musician in my family, but I'm very close with her and she's verycool. She played in an orchestra under Stravinsky back in the day and touredwith Bette Midler. So, there you have it. So, that's pretty cool. And I guessbesides for her, I was the only professional musician or the only real practicedmusician. And yeah, and people seem to like that. Enough on the family, so, yeah.
PK:What instruments did you play?
MW:I started on piano. I then took up saxophone in school and later started
playing clarinet, which I focused on in college, and that sort of is what I playfor the most part.
MW:Music in general? I like music. (laughs) It's fun. It's a good time. And I
started piano lessons when I was three or four, very young, and basically, Ijust played piano all day for many, many years. I didn't really practice, but Ibanged on the thing a lot and that was, I guess, the first, earliest musicalexperience I had.
PK:Can you describe the community you grew up in?
MW:Hm, the community I grew up in. Well, I went to public school in Long Island.
I didn't love it. Actually, I really disliked it for, yeah, the whole time,basically. It's Long Island, it has its issues. It's public school. They havetheir issues. There was a music program that was pretty good. But once I starteddoing things that were outside their curriculum, they weren't too embracive. So,that was that. The friends that I had from Camp Ramah were very close for a long 6:00time. So, they were sort of my closest pals, had a very close family, so itwasn't so bad that school sucked. But it did.
PK:Can you describe Camp Ramah?
MW:Camp Ramah in the Berkshires, you know, it's your Jewish summer camp. I don't
know, it's a cool place, I suppose. I made a lot of friends there when I wasyounger. And ultimately, that's where I met the people who introduced me toklezmer music, so I guess it's a good thing that I went there, yeah.
PK:Were there any organizations or institutions that your parents were involved in?
MW:Other than PTA, none that I can remember of.
PK:And just briefly, what is your education in Jewish and secular or otherwise?
MW:Oh, education-wise -- I guess basically what, right, I told you that I went
7:00to Hebrew school, all that stuff. And then, they teach you a lot of stuff atCamp Ramah. Some of it's good, a lot of it is questionable, especiallypolitically questionable. But good to know that that kind of thing is beingtaught and know what you're either dealing with or up against. As far as thesecular Jewish world that we deal with here at places like KlezKanada andKlezKamp and the klezmer and Yiddish scene at large, I started coming to themwhen I was fourteen, but before then, I didn't have any connection to them. Iguess my grandparents remember the Workmen's Circle, but it wasn't too big of apart of their life. So, I didn't really know about it much until I was a teenager.
PK:So, what happened when you were fourteen?
MW:When I was fourteen. Well, I guess it really started, I'm gonna have to take
you all the way back to when I was thirteen. Thirteen years old, my friend 8:00Joseph Dopkin from Camp Ramah in the Berkshires. Well, let's see, I had beenplaying saxophone and had just gone to my first klezmer concert, I believe, inNew York City. And liked it enough, it was pretty cool. And my friend Joseph atCamp Ramah in the Berkshires told me that his parents and him had been going toa klezmer camp called KlezKamp in the Catskills since he was a kid. His momtaught folklore there and he said, "You should come." And so, I went. And I wentthat following winter, when I was fourteen years old. I think it was 1996. And,yeah, that's how I started going there. It was pretty quick. My parents havenever gone. They didn't go then. And I just sort of was a kid running aroundlike an idiot when I was there. And it was very fun and I had a good time. AndI'm still going, so --
PK:Can you describe KlezKamp in those days?
MW:In those days -- for a fourteen-year-old, it's very fun. There was a good
9:00amount of kids my age, so it was lots of fun and I think -- I'm not sure if Iwas part of Jenny Romaine's teen theater program, but I feel like I interactedwith it a lot. And the good part about going then was that I had gone earlyenough to be able to study with Sid Beckerman, who was my first teacher there.And he was an old-timer who played clarinet and it was sort of amazing to havehim as a first experience. And I was lucky that I went early enough, 'cause hestopped going maybe my third or fourth year that I was there and he's passed onsince. But as a kid, I got to just meet all of these amazing people, many ofthem who aren't around anymore. So, it was great getting to go then, and I sortof grew up in this world. Musically, at least, if not more so, yeah.
PK:Can you describe your relationship with Yiddish?
MW:The language or in general? Or whatever it means?
MW:I do not speak Yiddish. However, I understand more than I think I do, just
from having been around it. I travel a lot to Germany to play music and it helpsme a lot because the amount that I understand helps me understand a lot ofGerman there. So, I guess that's convenient. And even though I don't speak it, Ifeel like I do because it's the world that I exist in musically and personally.And so, I should probably learn it. That would be a good thing to do. A lot ofpeople have told me I should do that but I haven't yet. Maybe one day, yeah.
PK:Why are they encouraging you to speak Yiddish?
MW:Well, many reasons. Michael Alpert says it'd be great to learn the secret
language. Also, for someone who doesn't speak the language, I have gotten intoYiddish poetry a lot, even though I don't speak it. So, it would probably be 11:00good to understand the first language it's written in other than thetranslations. And I also deal a lot with Yiddish songs. Again, it would be veryhelpful if I understood the language to deal with those. And if a community thatyou exist in has a code, it's good to know the code.
PK:And your relationship to Yiddish, the culture?
MW:Ah, Yiddish the culture. Well, I would say that the majority of my closest
friends, who have become my family, are in this world. I work professionally inthis world a hundred percent of the time. And between those two things, that'ssort of my life. And it's a good one. And also, having grown up in themainstream Jewish community and having had my issues with it, some not so great, 12:00it provided an alternative for it. And it's great to be a part of. I'm veryhappy to be a part of it. So, yeah.
right. If you say it's one thing, then it makes it another thing. And if you sayit's another thing, it makes it one thing. From my standpoint, it's sort of justwhat I do and I don't know if I'd really be able to describe it. But I know thatI'm a part of it and I know that I wonder what I'd be doing if I wasn't. MaybeI'd be an accountant. That doesn't sound so fun.
PK:What was your family's reaction to you living in this world?
MW:Well, I'd say that they like it a lot. They like the music that I make, they
13:00like the people who I've introduced them to. I think they are cool with me beinga musician now. I think it took a while, especially for my mom. She wanted me togo to Northwestern. I didn't end up going to Northwestern. But I imagine it'shard for parents, for them to have musician kids, because it's hard to be amusician. And it's also hard for parents to do that because sometimes they don'tsee that you can deal with less money. (laughs) But you know, you don't make aton of money being a musician, but it's okay. And I'd say the hardest part about-- well, the second hardest part about not making much money is that you have todeal with your parents telling you that you don't make much money. So, for whatit's worth, that. (laughs) 14:00
PK:All right, I'd like to continue the discussion about your work.
MW:Okay.
PK:What would you say your basic collaborators are? Who are your basic --
MW:What would I say my basic collaborators are? Who would I say my basic
collaborators are? Okay, well, for the work that I do of my own creation, I havea group of my own that is usually a trio with another person that you'veinterviewed, Benjy Fox-Rosen, and an accordionist in New York named PatrickFarrell. And we do a lot of collaborative work. We develop music together as atrio and we play it a lot, all over the place. And it's a klezmer group thatBenjy also sings some of his original songs in Yiddish in. However, we have used 15:00a lot of elements of outside music to sort of build our thing, a lot of elementsof minimalist contemporary classical music, of jazz, maybe, of the music that'sbeing made in New York right now. There's a lot around us, so we try to take inwhat we can. So, that's my group. We'll be recording soon with some more people.Yay, recording. And then, I also work with a lot of other people. I work withAdrienne Cooper, who sings. I'm her music director and we put out a record lastyear of the repertoire she's been working with and she sort of put it in myhands a little bit to sort of tinker with the sounds and the arrangements andall that kind of thing to bring it out. But that's sort of a wonderful project. 16:00I've worked a lot with Daniel Kahn. He's a singer in Berlin. I'm in Socalled'sband. He mixes hip-hop and klezmer music and he raps in Yiddish sometimes. Andthat's a good one. And a bunch of others here and there. I could go on for awhile, but --
PK:Now, with the Michael Winograd Trio --
MW:Oh, yeah.
PK:-- can you describe what goes into deciding a song to sing, or what is the collaboration?
MW:We bring stuff in and we read it a bunch and we'll try it out. And I think
that we are all on the same page about giving anything a chance. We're prettyopen to that, so if someone brings something in, we will at least perform it acouple times. And, I mean, it started with me bringing in the repertoire andthen Benjy and now all of us do. And we try to work things out and bring to it 17:00what each of us can and build it so we're all happy with it. I think that we'reat a point now where we sort of know it's gonna work. So, we haven't brought inanything recently, I would say, that doesn't really work.
PK:Can you describe something you brought in that did work, like a specific song?
MW:Well, let's see. Well, I was working a lot with -- I'm in Benjy's band, as
well. This is interesting, is that we have a number of bands that basically havethe same people in it, more or less. But I was in Benjy's band and we worked outhis songs in a way that was very appropriate for his band and for how hepresents his music. When we brought it into my group, we had to make somechanges, some musical changes, because we sort of present things differently.Plus, we wanted to integrate it into the other music that we play. We try to puttogether these long, elaborate, elaborative -- forget that word. We try to puttogether these long sets that go from one thing to another and incorporate 18:00different musics and try to match things that you would think would work andthen match things that wouldn't necessarily work and try to make them work. So,we changed up some of the ways that we had done some of this music before. Also,I think that having -- I see the way Benjy writes, I see the way Patrick writes.They see how I write and between that, we bring things in that we think willwork well for the three of us. And also, we bring in a lot. We're constantlyadding new things, which is good, I think, for the most part. Sometimes, we takeon a little bit too much but it's a good thing for us, I believe.
PK:So, you mentioned some of where you got your training. Was it only at KlezKamp?
MW:Well, I would say for this kind of music, it started at KlezKamp in the
Catskills. It then continued at the New England Conservatory, where I went to 19:00college. I was studying with Hankus Netsky there. I met him at KlezKamp. I also,around the time I was fifteen, started studying with Matt Darriau, a clarinetistand saxophonist in New York. He plays with the Klezmatics. So, I was going toBrooklyn to study with him. And from there, I started going to KlezKanada inabout 2002 or so and teaching at these places, as well, now. And then, just byplaying the music and listening to the music and writing the music and talkingabout the music and arguing with people about the music, that's sort of how youlearn it. But I would say the big institutions that I learned at over the courseof my formative years were KlezKamp, KlezKanada, New England Conservatory, MattDarriau. I also studied with Andy Statman when I was a teenager in Brooklyn. So,yeah, there was a lot of people. And Sid Beckerman, outside of KlezKamp, I wouldgo visit him in New York, as well. And so, I had a lot of people who were 20:00helping me out, which was very good.
PK:Can you describe going from student to teacher?
MW:Student to teacher. What's great about this community is that's something
that they really push or that we really push is there's a whole contingent ofpeople who I grew up with here and who I knew as kids and who I knew as kids whoI met at my first KlezKamp, people like Jake Shulman-Ment. We are roughly thesame age and I met him at, I believe, my first KlezKamp. And we were kidsrunning around and acting like idiots there and now we're teaching here. Whoknew? But it's one of these things where you learn for a while and then thestaff drags you onto stage and you play with them and you're really intimidatedand then you start getting used to it. And then, they ask you to start workingfor free. And then, they ask you to work for free a number more times until yousay, "Hey, I think that it's time that I work for real." And then, they say,Yeah, I think so. And what was great, also, is that teaching is still learning. 21:00When I first started teaching at KlezKanada, I was team teaching with KurtBjorling, who was one of the greatest teachers I've ever had here. And I learnedso much just by teaching with him how to teach and what you can learn from yourstudents along with what you can teach to your students. So, I think that it's areally amazing, organic way that people go from being a student to a teacherhere. And it's pretty special.
PK:How do you decide what to teach?
MW:Wow. Hm. I don't know. I think you develop something. Every person has their
style. Every person has what they like, what they want to give to people andit's different all around. And so, after years of sort of developing your ownthing, you say, This is what will work for me. So, for a while, I was teaching abig band that just learned tunes by listening at both KlezKamp and KlezKanada, 22:00'cause I had all these tunes that I wanted people to learn and I wanted peopleto play and that seemed to be the best way to do it. This year, I'm not doingthat. I'm teaching a composition class after making this recording in Septemberof music that I've been writing for the last four, five years. I was like, Wow,I want to teach that kind of stuff. I want people to be doing this. So, I thinkit's related to the things that you do in your professional life, as well, as towhat you want to teach.
PK:Now, back to Yiddish culture, what is interesting about this music?
MW:I don't know. Well, I don't know. Let's edit that out. Well, (laughs) it's
one of these things where on one end, it's not different than any other music.It speaks to you as any music does. I went to this first concert of mine, this 23:00first klezmer concert when I was thirteen years old and it was actually fairlyavant-garde klezmer music. It was part of a jazz festival in New York City,Lower East Side. And it spoke to me. It spoke to me like the first time I heardjazz, like the first time I heard Beethoven, like the first time I heard theRolling Stones or something like that, something really fresh and special andunique. So, like any other music, it has its vocabulary, it has its sound, ithas the things that it does differently from other types of music. On the otherhand, it also has a cultural connection. There's cultural connections involved.And that's the interesting one, because there's always the question: does itspeak more to me than it can speak to someone else because I grew up with thesounds of my grandparents and great-grandparents speaking Yiddish maybe a little 24:00bit. Even though they spoke very little, they spoke a little bit. Does it speakto me more because my father listened to Mickey Katz when I was a kid? I don'tknow. And then, on the other hand -- but then the terrible argument comes up,well, is klezmer music for the Jews, which that's absolutely not the case. Andthe best musicians playing it are very often not Jewish or didn't come from aparticularly Jewish background. And so, I don't know what draws people to thistype of music or to any type of music. And maybe it's just a coincidence thatI'm a Jew who's drawn to Jewish music, 'cause I could easily be a Jew who'sdrawn to calypso or drawn to avant-garde film or anything. So, there's your answer.
PK:What is it -- I mean, in the translations of Yiddish poetry that you're
MW:I was really into it towards the end of college and when I moved to New York,
and I suppose that I really liked it because of how dark and somber it was. Andit reminded me of -- I was reading a lot of Anne Sexton at some point, which ispretty depressing and amazing and beautiful. And I remember that the vibereminded me of that. I don't know why. Even though they were talking aboutthings that you might not assoc-- I mean, I was reading some Yiddish poetry, Idon't even remember who it was by, this is a long time ago, and it had some sortof Biblical references in it. But the way that it was being used were so sort ofcreepy and morbid. And I was like, Wow that's part of this. And I try to keep my 26:00ears open musically to all sorts of music. And I was like, If that's part of thelanguage, then it's part of the culture and then it's also part of the music.And so often, the music is described as happy, joyous dance music, but there'sall these sounds. This is a people with a dark past, and so the palette is justopened. And I like the idea of having a wide and open palette to use in artcreation and things like that.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
PK:So, can you remember or describe a particularly meaningful performance?
MW:Of anyone's?
PK:Of anyone's.
MW:Yeah, many. Many. Let's see. I remember that, at an early KlezKamp, I was
27:00studying with Sid Beckerman and he taught me a number of songs, some of thefirst tunes that I learned. And then, that night, they were having dancing thatnight, and Merlin Shepherd, who was a younger clarinetist who's in his fortiesnow, I suppose -- and he was also teaching there at the time. And he's supercool. And he was playing the dance set that night. And he played a bunch ofthose tunes. And it was sort of this thing that was like, Wow, that's amazing.He wasn't in the class. (laughs) And it wasn't so much that -- I wasn'tsurprised that he knew the tunes. That wasn't it, but it was just like, yeah,he's playing these tunes that he also learned from Sid and there's all thesepeople who learned so much from this guy. And that was an early one. That was anearly KlezKamp performance memory that was really nice. I remember being very 28:00happy about that. It was cool, yeah.
PK:And one of your own performances?
MW:Particularly memorable? Hm, I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of them.
(laughs) There's a lot of them. I've had the chance to play at a lot offestivals, in places that I never really thought that I would go. Well, that Ithought I wouldn't go, but that I was very fortunate to go to. With Socalled, wetravel around and we played at the Dawson City Music Festival in the Yukon acouple years ago, which was totally crazy. Where is that? Where is Dawson City?I don't know. But it's super far north and the sun didn't go down and it wasamazing. And then, I think just a couple months before that, we gave a workshopand a concert in Reunion Island, which is less than a hundred miles from 29:00Madagascar. And I was like, Wow, I'm teaching people klezmer here. And then, weplayed for them that night and it was amazing. Another one of the great musicalexperiences I had was going on tour with Budowitz, which is a band that's leadby Josh Horowitz, who I met at KlezKamp who teaches here at KlezKanada and atKlezKamp. And their repertoire is amazing. And they asked me to sub on a tourfor them once. And they said, Yeah, the tour's gonna be in seven months. Learnthe music. And so, I got the CDs and it took me the whole time to learn it. Andthen, we got there and I didn't have any rehearsals. And we played these amazingshows at the Montreal Baroque Festival, which is a crazy, wild, amazingfestival, and some other places. And that was amazing, too. And the stories goon. But for all the things that are hard about being a musician, the prosheavily outweigh the cons and those performances, along with others, were some 30:00of the highlights.
PK:What are people's reactions to your music?
MW:To the music I make or to my music in general? Or to both, I suppose? Let's
see. For the most part, they like it. (laughs) For the most part, they like it.Sometimes, you get the overly emotional nostalgic reaction from people. Oh,you're playing the music that I remember from my childhood, which I really justdon't imagine is true anymore, because the people who come to my concerts aren'treally all that old and the people who are saying this to me are really, atmost, only ten years older than my parents and I know that that's not the musicof my parents' childhood. But that's nice. Over in Europe, it's a very differentreaction and you know that that's gonna be a very political issue. But it'salways very nice that people come out to hear -- they're very responsive to 31:00klezmer music there. And in Germany, it's especially interesting if you'reperforming music in Yiddish because the whole audience understands what you'resinging or what your singer is singing. And yeah, I would say that I've beenfortunate to have the majority of people's reactions to my music being verypositive and that's pretty great. I imagine I'd be a pretty sad person (laughs)if it was negative reactions.
PK:Why do you think people come out to hear these concerts?
MW:Why do people come out to hear concerts? I don't know. Who can even afford to
come out to concerts anymore? I don't know. I had a teacher in college who I wasstudying improvisation with who told me that his uncle was a musician during theGreat Depression. And the guy made hundreds of dollars a week, which is insane. 32:00And the reason he made a hundred dollars a week was because even in the GreatDepression, what people did spend, the little amount of money they had, was ongoing to hear music and going out to shows and on things that made their life asnormal as possible. People go to hear music because it makes their life normaland it's their connection to something real. And there's people who have jobsthat have no personal connection, I imagine. I mean, I guess that's a bit of ajerky thing to say but from my perspective -- and when they come out and theylisten to music, they are getting a genuine experience. It's the same thing asreading a great book. It's the same thing as going to see a good film,hopefully. I hope.
PK:As a performer of Yiddish music, what was it like to travel for the first
33:00time to somewhere like Germany or Krakow for the Ashkenaz Festival, Krakow, wherever?
MW:Well, for a long time, I heard my grandfather who fought in World War II say
that he would never step foot back in Germany, which is a very normal thing forsomeone of his generation. I never thought that. I never had that kind ofsentiment. And by the time I was getting ready to start doing internationaltouring, I was so excited about it that those type of issues were not part ofwhat I was thinking. And I really don't think that they generally are, becausewhen you go to tour in places where people expect that there is anti-Semitism 34:00and where they know there has been anti-Semitism, you may experience it and weall have from time to time. But the fact of the matter is the people who arecoming out to hear you and the people who have brought you over and the peoplewho are paying you and the people who are housing you and the people who areinvolved in any way in your performance are so excited by your presence and theyhave worked so hard to get you there that you really don't experience anythingbut total sincerity and genuine goodness from them. The experiences of playingmusic in places outside of your regular sort of habitat is amazing. It's amazingto go over and there's people who are there who know your music and there'speople there who don't know your music. And it's an amazing way to connect to alarge amount of people that most professions don't really give you the 35:00opportunity to do. So, I'm extremely fortunate to have played in the vast amountof places that I have. It's good.
PK:Where would you consider the capital of Yiddish music?
MW:Brooklyn. (laughs)
PK:Why Brooklyn?
MW:Because it's Brooklyn. Come on, what are you talking about, why Brooklyn? I
live on Coney Island Avenue in Brooklyn, and from one end is the -- I live rightwhere Borough Park begins in one direction. And then, about half a mile from meis where Midwood begins. And then, if you were to take a train twenty minutes,you would have where Williamsburg begins and -- it's a little overwhelming, Igot to say. But it's where people speak the language. And the funny part is that 36:00the people who play klezmer music really aren't even involved, or we don't havea relationship with these people. However, along with all of that is thatthere's a ton of the musicians who are making this music living there. Peoplecan't really afford to live in Manhattan anymore, so they live in Brooklyn. Theamount of musicians that live in Brooklyn is extraordinary, ridiculous. It'scrazy how many musicians live there, playing every type of music that you couldimagine. I live in an area called Ditmas Park, which I'm not sure is now, but acouple years ago, they were doing polling about ethnic diversity and this wasthe most ethnically diverse neighborhood in the country. And it's amazing! It'samazing because of that kind of thing. You get so many different types of peopledoing so many different types of things. So, not only is it the epicenter ofYiddish culture. Oh, I can't say that. That's a really obnoxious thing to say, 37:00that it's in Brooklyn. But it's absolutely in Brooklyn. So, I guess you'll haveto see for yourself why. But that's as good of an answer as I can give you.
PK:Do you ever perform with non-Yiddish musicians?
MW:Yes, I do. I've been part of a bunch of improvised music things and people
have composed music. And there's a couple of Israeli artists who I play with aswell. But the majority of what I do is related to klezmer music and things thatare associated with it, yeah.
PK:Let's start talking about this revival.
MW:Which revival? (laughs) The klezmer revival?
PK:The klezmer revival.
MW:Okay.
PK:Would you say that there was -- does a klezmer revival exist?
MW:Does it -- I always had trouble considering myself part of the klezmer
38:00revival, 'cause I felt like the klezmer revival meant not just playing the musicbut working so hard to preserve the music because if you didn't, it wouldn't bearound. And by the time I got to the scene, it was established or it felt to melike it was established. And so, that was in the mid-'90s. And now, fifteen orso years later, it really doesn't feel like a revival, like it's in a revivalanymore. I feel like I was fortunate enough to come to it in a time when I hadthe freedom to not have to work that hard to do it, because working that hard todo it, while extremely rewarding, it could be limiting in some ways. I don'tknow what those ways are, I wasn't part of it, but I feel like it could belimiting in ways where you need to constantly be working to sell yourself incertain ways in order to just be able to play the music. So, was there a 39:00revival? Yes. Does it exist now? I imagine a lot of people have differentarguments about that. I sort of feel like it does not because I'm not part ofit. Thus, who is? Thus, is it still happening or have we moved past it or is itjust in a phase of it that doesn't take that kind of work? I'm not sure. But itcertainly existed. It's the reason why it's here now. So, yeah.
PK:And what have you created that you think is important for the klezmer world?
MW:What have I created? Well, what always excites me is that I work with
musicians who are multigenerational. Yes, my trio is made up of people who are 40:00under thirty-three years old. However, I played in Budowitz with CookieSegelstein and Josh Horowitz. And I play with Frank London and people in theKlezmatics and that scene and Michael Alpert and Adrienne Cooper, of thatgeneration. I got to study with Sid Beckerman and Howie Leess and Ray Musikerand so many of these great -- Paul Pincus, German Goldenshteyn, these musiciansof that generation. So, I think that -- I don't know if that's a concrete thing,but I feel like that's important. I don't know why it's important, but I feellike that is important, that I was fortunate to be around in a time where I havethat link to things and that I get to regularly perform with people who haveexperiences that aren't necessarily readily available these days to younger 41:00musicians because the times are different. And in other scenes, other musicalscenes, you might not get to do that so often. You may only get to spend timeand play music with your contemporaries, as opposed to people from another time,people of other scenes, people who are older than you, people who are youngerthan you. Along with all those people, I get to teach people who are youngerthan me. So, it's pretty cool. So, maybe that's something to offer.
PK:What is the role of the performing artist in the transmission of culture? Or
are they involved in the transmission of culture?
MW:Well, sometimes they are the poster child of the transmission of culture. And
as a performer, I'm also a teacher. There's this whole thing about that you'renever just a performer. You're an artist, you're a scholar, and you are a 42:00teacher, and you need to be all three. To what extent, that differs amongstdifferent people. But it is your job, whether you like it or not, to be thevehicle for this culture, this music, this language, all of this. And I don'tthink anyone doesn't like that. I think we all are really into that. But it'snot just like you find a music and you play it. All of a sudden, you have aresponsibility. And it's not as if that responsibility is a very daunting task,to make it come across, but it certainly is something and we feel it all thetime, yeah.
PK:Do you consider yourself an activist?
MW:(laughs) Kind of. If I say yes, that's gonna lead to -- I'm gonna be thinking
43:00about it all night. To an extent. I would say that I am -- unfortunately, theword activist comes from the word active. So, I agree with most of the thingsthat my activist friends -- well, I guess I'm an activist. I don't know. Whatdoes that mean? Why, what's an activist?
PK:I was actually going to ask you what do you consider about your activist
friends -- what is an activist?
MW:I don't know what an activist is. But whatever it is, I am one. (laughs) Or I
know exactly what an activist is, and I am not one of those. (laughs)
PK:Okay, describe what you're not.
MW:I don't know.
PK:Okay.
MW:I don't know.
PK:All right. (laughter) What are some challenges in teaching Yiddish topics?
MW:Can I change the question to what are the challenges of teaching klezmer
music, since that --
PK:Yes.
MW:-- usually is what I am doing? The biggest challenges right now that I'm
seeing is that there is a trend of only learning this music to a certain extent.When people learn jazz, they learn it inside out. They can name all therecordings, they could talk about recordings from the historical recordings, themodern recordings. They know the music inside out. When people are learningklezmer, they tend to -- well, they don't tend to, but one issue, one problem,one challenge is that people often disregard some of the depth of the music. Andnot in a malicious way, but maybe it's difficult to learn it. Plus, because it's 45:00related to these other musics, often the differences might be disregarded. So,there's a lot of people who play Balkan music and klezmer music and gypsy musicand Russian music. And sometimes, some of these people in their playing of thesesound the same amongst the different genres. I'm not saying that that'sproblematic. However, if people want to learn the music and they only have agrasp of a certain part of it, the rest of it, the depth of the music, the realmeaty parts of it sort of becomes a slap in the face. It's like, Wow, what thehell is that and what does it mean and how do you explain it? And because thefolk music -- I mean, how do you teach a folk music, how do you teach a folk 46:00tradition? These are issues. But, on the other hand, the places where I end upteaching this music, places like KlezKanada, KlezKamp, the institutions thatI've taught in in Europe, like in Paris and in Weimar and all this stuff, thepeople who are tending to learn are so excited to learn that these issues reallybecome non-issues because they just want to get past them and they want toreally do it. And they come to study with you and they come because they want tolearn your thing and they're so excited about it. So, the challenges are quicklyoutdone by the enthusiasm and the want of, yeah, that.
PK:Can you describe how the klezmer scene has changed since you were fourteen?
MW:It's gotten bigger. Well, it's gotten wider. There are klezmer bands
everywhere you look now. I was, with my trio, we were brought to Newfoundlandand St. John's because there's a klezmer band there that wanted to put onconcerts for us and have us give them clinics. I don't know if that was the casea little while ago, that you have klezmer bands in a place like that. As I saidearlier, I gave a clinic in Africa, in Reunion Island. Well, it's technicallyFrance, but it's basically Africa. I think that the demographic of it hasdefinitely grown. I think that there's musical trends that are always changing.I don't know if there's some sort of formula to how they've changed. But there'sdefinitely musical trends that are always changing, plus -- 48:00
PK:What are we in right now?
MW:Blue period? I don't know. What are we in right now? There seems to be a
neotraditional thing going on with string music and Moldavian music that seemsto really be in right now. I know that I am in a personal trend of -- I guess Idon't know that I'm in a personal trend of anything, now that I think about it.Oh well, I don't know what I'm in. But there's definitely musical trends. But Ithink all the things that were great about it at the time that I came in arestill here. And the things that are repetitive are repetitive for a reason,because they work and they're great. And I think, also, that there's always moreand more people involved, so you're constantly getting young people who are very 49:00inspiring, you get people who are new to the scene, who bring something new toit and give you new ideas. And yeah, I think that it's grown very nicely.
PK:What do you think the klezmers' attitudes towards Yiddish, how have those changed?
MW:The klezmers? You mean the musicians?
PK:Yes.
MW:Well, unfortunately, there's too many people like me who play the music
full-time and really care about it but haven't gone the distance to learn thelanguage. It's unfortunate. At least I'm aware of it. There's probably a lot ofmusicians who aren't even aware that it's important, that the language isimportant. But most people playing klezmer music -- and by most, I mean the vastmajority of people playing klezmer music do not speak the language, which is toobad. It's a bummer. And it would be nice. I don't think it is an attitude thathas -- there's any negativity towards the language. But I just think that it's a 50:00task that hasn't been met by too many performers of the music, especially toomany performers, and especially instrumentalists who don't sing. Very few, ifany, that I've met who have learned Yiddish after the fact. It's too bad.
PK:In your perspective, what is the place of klezmer in a broader Jewish culture?
MW:Well, we always hope that it will be embraced by the mainstream Jewish scene,
wherever we are. Sometimes, it's the case, sometimes surprisingly it's the case.Sometimes we're like, Wow, you do get embraced by the Jewish scene at large.However, often, that's not what happens and we feel like we're sort of the weird 51:00cousin who gets left behind. And maybe that's just the musicians and the peopleinvolved speaking because it's never enough. But, on the other hand, I thinkthat people see that there is a divide between the klezmer Yiddish world and therest of the Jewish world. Maybe it's a good thing, though. I'm sure equal amountof good things have come of that as bad things. So, I don't think there's toomuch to complain about it. However, there is lots of funding from the mainstreamJewish world that we don't really get a part of too often. So, it would be niceif they gave us their money.
PK:So, we're nearing the end.
MW:Okay.
PK:But I have couple more --
MW:All right.
PK:-- questions, things. But I'd first like to ask if there are any topics or
MW:Hm. Caught me off guard there. I don't know, maybe keep asking the questions;
if I think of something, I'll interrupt you.
PK:Sounds great.
MW:Okay.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
PK:Can you tell me about your work with Yiddish Princess?
MW:Yiddish Princess is the best band in the world. It is a heavy metal band in
the language of Yiddish, featuring Sarah Gordon. An onslaught of electricguitars. Pulsing synths, ad nauseum. Drums that will beat you to a pulp ofbeauty. And we are taking over the world of Yiddish.
PK:Where did it come from?
MW:Where did it come from? Okay, so where did it come from? I am twenty-eight
years old and I grew up listening to rock in the '80s with cheesy-ass 53:00synthesizers and drum machines. And Sarah Gordon, my very, very close pal, wholives around the block from me in Brooklyn, who is the daughter of AdrienneCooper -- and a fabulous Yiddish singer she is -- we've written music together.So, I've written music, she's written lyrics, and a couple years back, it justsort of happened, first as a joke. We had a gig that Itzik Gottesman set up forus playing Yiddish Passover music at some point. And we were like, Well, whydon't I just play synthesizers and you can sing? And then, the next time weplayed, we're like, Well, why don't we add our friend Avi Fox-Rosen in electricguitar? And then, all of a sudden, we were a six-piece band that was playingsome pretty hard-hitting heavy metal. And it's been embraced pretty well. We'restarting to play all over the place and it's a pretty decent band, I gotta say.It's not too shabby. We got a CD. It's nice. We have a really, really fabulous 54:00logo. It's pink. And yeah, and we're glamorous.
PK:Have you heard of the other heavy metal Yiddish --
MW:There's a couple.
PK:Oh?
MW:There's a couple, yeah. There's one Scandinavian band, I forget where they
come from, and they have an amazing version of "Afn veg [On the road]" that Iwant to rip off. There's also a band called Gevolt in Israel. You've heard ofthem? Yeah? And what's interesting about Gevolt, so they do "Tumbalalaika,"(whispers) but they do it like the Barry Sisters did it. It's amazing. You haveto wonder where these guys got their records. So, yeah, our idea is was that wewould hook up with these bands and put together a caravan of amazingness withthem. But, yeah --
PK:So --
MW:-- it's pretty fun to play Yiddish heavy metal.
PK:-- why do you think all these bands -- they seem to have appeared out of
nowhere with --
MW:I don't think it's so many. I think there being three is a very, very small
-- why? Because we grew up listening to heavy metal. We grew up as heavy metalkids and listening to Metallica and Nirvana and hard rock. And if you think 55:00about this music historically, you think pre-war to how all of these klezmermusicians were mixing swing and klezmer, it makes total sense that we would doit with rock. Now, is it a gimmick? Yeah, it's a gimmick. But it's a pretty fungimmick. And I don't think that it's -- it's pretty sincere, too. We're notfooling around here. It's not a joke. And it works. It actually, surprisinglyworks pretty well. I guess the challenge is making it work, though, because youcan't just put a rock beat behind a Yiddish folk song. You've got to figure howit works. What we found that's working great is that there's all thesecontemporary Yiddish writers. Some are of our generation, some are very old. Butbecause the music and the lyrics have been written in the recent past ten, 56:00twenty years, it all connects together in this sort of contemporary sound. So,it gives us a lot to work with. So, it's worth doing for the time being, I'd say.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
PK:What advice do you have for aspiring artists or future generations?
MW:Okay, don't get too stressed out by your parents and just go with your gut. I
don't know how I actually got here, but I got here and it's good and one thinghas led to another and I'm really happy it has. And I'm happy about the risksthat I've taken and I'm glad they happened. And yeah, just nothing is ever tooweird. Nothing is ever too normal. Nothing is ever too conservative. Nothing isever too liberal. It's all part of one thing. That's weird. That's some hippiestuff, isn't it? But, yeah, you bet. (laughs) Just do it. Nike. Just do it. (laughs)