WILLIAM ROBIN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is October 18th, 2011, and I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with William Robin and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. William Robin, do I have your permission to record this interview?

WILLIAM ROBIN:You certainly have, yes.

CW:Thank you. So, I'd like to start with your family background. Can you briefly tell me where your family came from and how they came to this country?

WR:My mother and father both came from small shtetl [small Eastern European town with a Jewish community] towns right outside of Kiev, in Ukraine. And yeah, I 1:00think my father came from a town called Fastiv and my mother from a town nearby, Pavoloch. But they met in the United States. My mother came here, came to the US at the age of nine with a family. Father, mother, and family. And my father came to the United States at the age of twenty in 1913 and had a sister living in Providence. And that's how he ended up in Providence and where he met my mother, because her family -- and I don't know for sure why they came to Providence. But anyway, that was the beginning.

CW:And did they ever talk about the Old Country? Do you have a sense of what the shtetl life was like?

WR:Yeah, only because of my father. My mother --- (coughs) excuse me. My mother did have some experience there, but it wasn't something that was outstanding 2:00enough to really talk about. And she did talk about it at times, but especially sometimes on the relationship with the non-Jewish community, population that was there and the interaction. Her family did not have any particularly bad experience. In my father's case, being twenty, he actually had had a background, certainly, and talked about it. And because I asked him. I have a brother and a sister who didn't show any interest, so he never talked about it with them. But as soon as I -- old enough to say, "Pa, tell me a little bit about what it was like for you. Yeah, did you go to kheyder [traditional religious school] and that kind of thing?" And that was --

CW:Were there any --

WR:-- the beginning, yeah.

CW:Are there any great stories that you remember?

WR:Well, my father's father, for whom I'm named -- he was Velvl and so, 3:00actually, my father called me Velvl, but I was named William. Anyway, his father was someone who was a teacher in a kheyder because the Jewish -- as you probably know, there was a -- in general, Jewish kids didn't go to public schools there. And so, he had the kheyder background where -- but his father was his teacher at the -- and he also taught them more than just Jewish history and was a -- I think my father's background, until he was thirteen, was not only about the Jews and Judaism, but also he learned reading and writing and math. And at thirteen, 4:00he had to go to work. But that didn't mean that he wasn't already educated. He was educated enough to -- because he was a reader. And when I was a child, he was already reading not only Hebrew, Yiddish, Russian, but he was reading English already, too. He never lost his accent, but his vocabulary was huge. And he became a successful businessman, yep.

CW:Wow, and can you describe the home that you grew up in to me?

WR:Yeah, well, you already know that my mother came with a family. So, my grandfather, who lived in Providence, also, and we used to see a lot of him -- and Jewishly, the first thing was that my mother kept kosher, although my father, as a businessman, had to work on Shabbos. So, there was no question about that. But Friday night was still an important evening for the family to be 5:00together and say the prayers. And because my father worked, there was no question he didn't go to synagogue on Saturday morning. But my grandfather was an Orthodox Jew who really went to shul regularly, including in early morning if he could get away. Because of that, there was a lot of Yiddish in the house. My grandfather spoke only Yiddish. I don't know whether he learned English over the years that he was here, but he made sure that he just spoke only Yiddish to the kids. And I still remember to this day, because I understood everything, but I had so little experience in speaking that it was very difficult. And I remember him at a very early age saying to me and my brother and sister, "Red yidish, red 6:00yidish [Speak Yiddish, speak Yiddish]," it's that -- and I hear it all the time. And my parents occasionally, when they were together, alone, or even when we were around, would talk in Yiddish. And as I say, I learned a lot of Yiddish from them. So, I was at a point where I -- my father read the "Tog" Yiddish paper regularly. And there was even a column in the "Tog" for children and he taught me how to read Yiddish. And having an understanding, I read the column regularly. So, although I'm not one who can say I spoke Yiddish or spoke well, I'm still in that world because of the fact that I was involved so much in Yiddish and Yiddish culture.

CW:So, when you think about the Yiddish being spoken in the home, are there any 7:00phrases that really sort of were representative of your grandfather or your father or mother in Yiddish?

WR:Oh, I'm just thinking of phrases -- I know there were but, as I told you, we didn't have very much. There was a lot of anger, I mean, my father, in work and then dealing with his father-in-law. But he, as I say, I never heard real swearing or anything like that. But it's funny, at this stage in my life, so many of the expressions come back and I use them. And of course, most of my acquaintances now are not Jewish. And I use them and then not only do they ask 8:00me what it means, but they'll often say, Where did you learn this? Because a lot of people are really fascinated by this. These are expressions that you can't translate, yeah.

CW:Yeah. Well, we'll come back to that, so if you want to think of any favorites that you want to --

WR:I will. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CW:-- talk about. So, you mentioned Friday night.

WR:Yeah.

CW:Were there any special rituals that you had in your family?

WR:Well, we did the regular rituals in the sense of the blessing candles and blessing of the challah and the wine. And that was something where Friday night was, right up until the time we were probably -- got away and went to college, it was understood that Friday night, the family ate together. And most of my 9:00children have since adopted it, even though they themselves are not kosher and it's a different lifestyle. But they enjoyed -- obviously, enjoyed the Friday night meal and getting together and all that, that each of them in turn, somewhere along the line, have picked it up. And that was without any pressure from us.

CW:What about food? Are there any great foods that you remember for specific holidays or family recipes?

WR:Oh, yeah, as a fact, my mother -- well, of course, we always had challah on Shabbos and my mother would always have chicken soup Friday night, which I loved. I was a good eater. I really enjoyed almost anything that was ever served me. But I would look forward to soup, especially. And I'm thinking now in terms 10:00as a kid in school. And I often would ask my mother right after breakfast before I left for school, "Mom, what are we going to have for dinner tonight," that kind of thing. And I think about it even today. And we had the special foods for the holidays, each of them, and specifically -- Sukkos -- I say Sukkos, you notice. I learned Sukkot later, but Sukkos -- Shavuot, we call that Shavuos, and Pesach. So, each of those holidays were observed in that way -- no, it was only for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur that we wouldn't go to school. But that was understood. And my grandfather had a sukkah right next to the house -- to his. He had a three-family house. And so, the sukkah was just under (UNCLEAR). And in 11:00those days, there were no -- at least in the Orthodox homes -- I'm going back now to pretty close to World War I, the '20s. And there was no such thing as dairy on Pesach, so that we had, say, for example, matzah with chicken fat. And I can just see it now, and my grandmother would say, "You want a bite?" Naturally, she'd say it in Yiddish. "Vilst esn [Do you want to eat]?" And that would be for just a snack. And especially my brother and I, who were both good eaters, we would have as much of matzah and schmaltz as we could get our hands on. And so, to this day, I remember that. But then, I don't know at what point 12:00it was that dairy became available, kosher for Pesach dairy, yeah. And that changed things quite a bit. But, I mean, you ask about special foods, yeah, and then --

CW:(UNCLEAR) schmaltz. (laughs)

WR:Schmaltz was, yeah, and I'm sure you're familiar with grivn [cracklings]. Are you familiar with that? It would be pieces of chicken fat that were fried, and they were delicious. So, that was another thing that went on in the house. When my mother made the chicken for the chicken soup, she'd always have some grivn left, and my brother and I were fighting over it all the time. It's a small thing but it's the kind of thing you remember, yeah.

CW:If you take yourself back there, I mean, bringing the flavor of the food into your mouth -- but also, can you describe what the house looked like and what 13:00were the --yeah, what was the style of the house?

WR:Yeah, well, we lived -- and as I say, my grandfather lived in another section of Providence which at one point was basically a Jewish neighborhood, you might call it. We lived in another part of Providence which was -- I guess it's the best way to identify it is with maybe Brown University, because Brown University was actually within walking distance. And the area immediately around Brown, at that point, were pretty affluent people. But as you got away from it, toward the area we lived, it was still no poverty there but it was less affluent. My father was a bottler, soda business, and he did pretty well, I mean, considering especially the Depression years where we managed pretty well. But in any case, 14:00we lived in a two-family house and we had the second floor. And I remember there was an attic and there was a room in the attic for overflow. But anyway, so there were my father and mother and three kids and there were actually just two beds, right? Two bedrooms and one of us, so there was always one of us sleeping up in that attic room. And we had one bathroom for five, which we managed until my sister -- I had one sister and she got a little bit older and then it was a fight who was gonna be using that bathroom. And we were pretty well-off, considering the fact that so many people, first of all, didn't own a home, and secondly, they paid rent and didn't know necessarily from one year to the next where they would be living until when the Depression came, then, that was when 15:00the whole thing changed, where everyone was pretty much in the same position -- had to struggle.

CW:So, what do you remember about the Depression years?

WR:Well, as I say, I think we were pretty much fortunate because my father had a nice, small bottling business and he was able to -- in those days, the thing was you make a living, yeah. And as a result, we were considered millionaires. My father had a two-family home and he had a car and -- whereas everyone else just about were hoping to be able to keep the house and keep up with mortgage payments and jobs. And the WPA came in and -- are you familiar with that? WPA? Well, as far as I was concerned, I was the kind of kid -- I was born 1922. So, I 16:00don't remember 1929 or '30, but I certainly remember after that. And I was sensitive and I realized what was going on with my kids in the neighborhood, the kids I went to school with, and I had many cousins. Matter of fact, a couple of my uncles and aunts who were really struggling. And the WPA saved a couple of them, at least. I mean, talking about my immediate family. But we managed. And when I say we, I'm talking not just about us because we, as I said, we were considered the rich people in the neighborhood. But even in the case of the rest of the family, my father helped out a lot with some of the people who were in the family who were really up against it. So, it's something that people of my 17:00generation still think of Depression with a capital D. The Depression, yep. So, anyway, those were the years, of course, that I went to public school and kheyder. We used to go to kheyder. Was after school, Monday through Thursday. And that was an experience in itself. When I look back now, I say to myself, Well, I don't think I would do that to any of my children, because we would go to kheyder, get home from school, three-thirty, four o'clock, have a bite, and then we're on our way walking about a mile away to the shul that had the kheyder. And very often -- well, not that very often, but once the summer was over, you were heading for early dark. And we'd come home in the dark, walk home 18:00that mile. And it was just understood that that's the way it was.

CW:And can you describe the kheyder for -- I mean, did you have -- were your teachers from Europe?

WR:Well, we had -- I'm trying to think. Our shul, which was Orthodox, even though, as I say, we really weren't Orthodox in the sense that -- what I said is the Shabbos wasn't what it would be if my father didn't work. But on the other hand, that was the only thing he and my mother knew, was the -- 'cause Reform was already there in Providence. We had a Reform temple. But they were like -- I mean, the expression that you heard most -- they were the goyim. And (laughs) it's funny to say it because -- but that's what it was. The average European Jew from Eastern Europe, they looked at Reform as -- oh, and also, I used to call it 19:00the "daytshe shul," the German shul. Anyway, so there was no question that we went to kheyder in an Orthodox shul. And the teachers at our place were basically European men. If you were lucky, you had a man who knew something about children and you'd never think in terms of being hit by a teacher, which was common in some of the other schools. It wasn't just something you read about. I mean, I knew about it from friends. And so, as I say, I was very fortunate in the fact that I had teachers who were -- that they were teachers, that they weren't just people who happened to know things that the congregation would like the kids to learn. But it was more than, I mean --- they were people 20:00who were good teachers and good people. And I'm sure some of those men that I'm talking about, they themselves learned what being -- you were hit if you -- but they didn't do it. But there were people, as I say, many -- that was the way things were taught. And I'm a little ahead of myself but I think that a lot of the Jews, Jewish boys and men at that time who rejected Judaism, practically right after bar mitzvah, was because of what their experience in the kheyder. Just the opposite of what the situation should be, yeah.

CW:So, you enjoyed going to kheyder, then?

WR:No, I mean, but I understood that that's the way it was done, even though there were even Jewish kids on the street who didn't go to kheyder and they'd be playing ball and we were on our way to kheyder. But I can't say I enjoyed it, 21:00but I knew I was learning something. And the other thing, of course, was -- again, there were children in the kheyder who were practically from the same kind of background I was, a lot of immigrants' sons and daughters. And so, it was nice in that respect, getting to know people. I enjoyed public school and one of the reasons for that was the diversity of the students. But on the other hand, kheyder, you were with your own. (laughs) Yeah.

CW:So, can you describe a little bit of the ethnic mix of Providence at that time?

WR:Yeah, we had -- it was basically Italian and Irish Catholics, the big 22:00percentage. I would say maybe even as much as sixty-five, seventy percent of the city was Catholic and either Italian or -- and then, we had Portuguese, we had French Canadians, Armenians. There were a sprinkling of other -- I'm trying to think if there were any -- there were some Syrians. But I think that those that I mentioned really were in the forefront. And, of course, Jewish kids. And we never had many Jews in Providence considering what a Jewish neighborhood, Jewish community would be. I think the most we ever had in Providence -- I'm talking about a time when Providence had a quarter of a million people. Maybe ten 23:00percent, or (UNCLEAR) -- we have twenty-five thousand Jews and it's declined. It's funny the way -- because it isn't so much that they've disappeared, but as the environs got larger, the movement was to move and bring up your family outside of Providence. So, I think the latest count was seventeen thousand Jews, which is like one big condominium in Florida.

CW:And what were the relations like between the different ethnic groups?

WR:Oh yeah, well, there were problems, especially with the young Irish kids. For example, to go to kheyder, we had to pass the parochial school. And if we could time it right, we didn't pass it at the time the kids were being let out because 24:00that's where the problems would usually be if they were gonna be -- I mean, being called kike and that kind of thing. And so, we would run. Yeah, I wasn't a track star, but I was a runner in high school and college. And as I say, I learned early (laughs) -- when I had to run, I learned to run. But what was fascinating also was the fact that just beyond that Irish neighborhood was a black -- in those days, it was Negro -- a black neighborhood. And once we got there, we felt, We're safe. We don't have to worry. And even getting out of kheyder late, when it was dark, we had to go through that same neighborhood. And we never thought in terms of being in any kind of danger or anything. And then, also, the advantage of getting out of the darkness -- by that time, most of the 25:00kids that could have plagued us, the Irish kids, were home (laughs) so that we didn't have to think in those terms. But that's what it was, yeah. But as I say, in public school, I don't remember anything like fights because you were a Jew. I'm sure there was anti-Semitism, because at that period of time in American history, there was a lot of anti-Semitism from the home -- or the church, for that matter. But I think in our -- and when I say kids from that neighborhood that I lived in, I don't remember fights. And if there were fights in school, whether it was Jewish involvement or not, it was only fists. And when we started hearing about kids carrying knives and all that stuff, it was -- my God, it was 26:00just like -- never in our day.

CW:Well, you mentioned earlier that you listened to the "Jewish Radio Hour" at home?

WR:Yeah, yeah.

CW:Was that a regular thing (UNCLEAR)?

WR:Well, yes, my father, especially -- yeah, my mother would like to do it, too, but she was often busy. But he made sure that he would hear the Yiddish hour. And as I say, because of the fact that I understood Yiddish, I enjoyed it, too. Along the lines of Yiddish -- and my grandfather's house, there were usually new immigrants from Russia who'd come to Providence for whatever reason and really had no place to stay. And so, they did a little boarding on the side. And then, on Sunday, my father and those of us who would want to accompany him to my 27:00grandfather's house, would go and I would love to listen to the conversation that was going on in Yiddish from these new immigrants. And they were forever talking about rusland [Russia] and being in goles [Jewish exile] -- that's the galut [Hebrew: Diaspora]. And I remember squatting away from this group, but I could hear them and I loved it. And I'm sure no one would ever question why I was there because I was quiet. So, it's interesting that's one of the things I really, when I think back -- I treasure it because it was so meaningful to me. And I realize now, especially, I mean, as I got older that I was -- really, it was a treat that not everybody had. But, of course, in my brother and sister's 28:00case, they couldn't care less. So, it wasn't part of their upbringing whatsoever.

CW:I want to move on in a minute, but I want to ask first about the Jewish neighborhood in Providence. You mentioned your grandfather's house was in that --

WR:Yeah. Yeah, in that area at the time that my grandfather lived there, there was an Orthodox shul right about the corner. And as I say, he would occasionally even go to shul during -- on weekdays, but certainly on Shabbos. And when I think back about it -- and has anyone ever talked to you about an Orthodox shul in those days? With the spitting and the yelling and the hollering and the rabbi forever saying, "Zol zayn shtil, zol zayn shtil [Be quiet, be quiet]" and banging away. (laughs) And everyone had their own prayer books, all in Hebrew. 29:00But you went at your own speed. So, it was sheer chaos. But on the other hand, if that's all you were used to, that was it. That's what -- meant going to shul. (laughs)

CW:And did you go with your grandfather?

WR:If I was there on a Shabbos, yes. That's how I know about it. But the truth is that even the kheyder I went to, which was connected to an Orthodox shul, it was just the same way but not quite as bad. I don't think there was that much spitting in this one. And the women used to have to sit in the balcony, and I don't remember if both of the synagogues had curtains besides being in the balcony, but I know that certainly my grandfather's shul did. Yeah, they were up there, the women. So, as I said, coming from the kind of family I did where you -- it was more than just Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur when you went to shul. I 30:00realized we're -- but I didn't have any idea, first of all, that -- the daytshe shul, I knew nothing about except there was one or two of my friends, Jewish friends at school, who belonged to that synagogue. And of course, the rest of us used to think in terms of, Who is this kid? He thinks himself as a Jew but he's not really a Jew. How could he be a Jew? So, anyway -- (laughs) but that, unfortunately, really, that -- my experience growing up was only -- that was Jewish worship. And noise and chaos and -- (laughs) I didn't see any fights, but I'm sure there were, in some settings, must have been. I mean, the men who hated each other's guts probably in business or something, they get together on Saturday and it could have ended up in fights. But some of the things that -- 31:00you'd hear them shraying [shouting] at each other. Anyhow, it was a different world.

CW:Can you explain for someone who might not understand the spitting and sort of -- just paint the picture a little --

WR:Well, the spitting was usually caused by the fact that they were chewing tobacco or sniffing. Oh, that was another thing: sniffing of tobacco. And they had to have -- well, I forget what the -- spittoons all around, because the guys were forever spitting and it was understood -- (laughs) and it's funny when you think about it how funny that whole situation was, but when you're -- when that's what it is. It isn't a question anymore of -- I mean, for us growing up in that kind of environment, it wasn't a question anymore of, Why, this is strange. For example, if we had come from a Reform synagogue -- 'cause 32:00Conservatives came late to Providence. So, basically it was Orthodox and one Reform synagogue. But if I had been brought up in a Reform synagogue, temple, and saw what was going on in my grandfather's synagogue, I wouldn't believe it. But that's what it was, yeah.

CW:And did you have that experience if you ever went to the Reform temple? Did you ever go?

WR:Not when I was really young, no. But in later years, when I was first married, we belonged -- by that time, Conservative Judaism -- there were two Jewish Conservative temples in Providence. So, we belonged to a Conservative temple. But we joined a couple's group at the Reform temple. So, that's when I found out what Reform was. And Reform then was not Reform is today. There's a 33:00lot of tradition in modern Reform. In those days, it was a cold English -- the only thing that wasn't -- I mean, yeah, as a child or growing up in Providence, the only thing that I saw as being different than going to church was there was no Jesus. (laughs)

CW:Thinking back on that time, in growing up there, what were the values that you felt that your parents and your grandfather were trying to pass on to you?

WR:Well, the first thing, and it really was very obvious, was respect for elders. And even when, let's say, we were in public school, forgetting about kheyder, and you were -- a Jewish kid acted up, and which is true of non-Jews, too, but basically the Jewish kids, all they had to be told is, "You'll hear 34:00about this from your mother 'cause we're going to be calling her." And that was the end of the problem right then and there. So, there was that feeling about a respect for authority, a respect for people who are trying to teach you and so forth. And then, the business with the Jew and the non-Jew at that time was also very interesting, because in spite of the fact that the immigrant group like my folks had faced real anti-Semitism in Europe with the -- especially in the czarist Russia where the -- I mean, it was law that people observed and the Jew was always considered out of the picture. And so, they had some of them, some of 35:00these immigrants came with such feelings about goyim that it was like every non-Jew was an enemy. But fortunately for us, my grandfather didn't particularly like goyim, but I never heard him curse, which was very common because this was in -- as the answer to what they were facing all the time. One of the expressions that I heard -- my father never said this, but I remember my grandfather saying, "A goy iz a shiker [A non-Jew is a drunkard]." I mean, that was understood. A goy iz a shiker, see? And it was just in retaliation for what he probably was called that same day, yeah. Did you ever hear that before, by 36:00the way? That expression? A goy iz a shiker, yeah.

CW:Would you explain what it means for people who don't --

WR:Yeah, a non-Jew is a drunkard. Of course, and the truth -- there was, for example, on that street that my grandfather had his house -- it was called, the name of it is, it's still in Providence and it's still probably the type of neighborhood it was. It was a mixed group. Jews primarily, but there were some Polish -- as I'd mentioned, Armenians and non-Jewish Russians. So, that was the way my grandfather managed to get by because he -- most of the people he dealt with were either Jewish, Polish, Russian, and he could -- most languages he could handle. But I don't really know how much English he really could speak. He understood it, no question about it. Well, anyway, that was the situation, and 37:00what was the point that you were trying to make when you asked me that question?

CW:Oh, I just was hoping you could translate it. (laughs)

WR:Oh, yeah, because -- no, I meant -- okay, that goes back to the goy iz a shiker business. Yeah, because the thing was that many of those other immigrants from -- especially the Irish but certainly German, Polish, many of them were actually from a peasant background in Europe. Drinking was part of their lifestyle. Now, Jews drank, don't get me wrong, as you know, I'm sure. But everything was supposed to be in moderation. The Jew, the way I was brought up, there's no such thing as things out of the question. I mean, starting with sex. I mean, the rabbis themselves would talk about, Sex is important. But you've got 38:00to be moderate and you've got to -- and promiscuity is out and even premarital sex. These were all part of the routine. But the goy that even I knew, and I mean, in a way, it's funny: we had one type of goy -- I mean, in my mind, there was one type of goy that I went to school with or lived in the neighborhood. But my grandfather's section, the goyim were shikurim. That's a plural of being a shiker. The shikurim, yeah, so -- and it was interesting because you know the things that last in children's minds, and this was a long time ago, that I remember my grandfather at times would interfere in situations where a husband would come home drunk and, again, a non-Jew who was the shiker would come home 39:00and beat up his wife, which was not uncommon. And I know in more than one case, one I observed, where my grandfather went over and stopped it.

CW:So, you were talking about values that --

WR:Yeah.

CW:-- were passed on: respect to your elders, and there's anything else?

WR:Yeah, and accepting responsibility. I mean, certainly once the relationship developed between a man and a woman or if you had to help support the family, it was -- especially in the Depression years, there were kids who were -- I mean, if there ever were examples of young people who should be going to college and some of them had dropped out of school in high school -- and it wasn't just the Jewish kids, by the way, but it was understood that some of these kids who dropped out as soon as they could get work -- in those days, you got working 40:00papers. And if you really needed, the family really needed help, you could get them at fifteen. At sixteen, there was no questions asked. You could go out just to be a bum at sixteen if you want, right? But basically, the times were such that -- so anyways, I'll say that -- as far as the Jews were concerned, that went along with respect for your elders. And what was most fascinating was that you did these things because that was the thing to do. It wasn't a question of being hollered at, beat up because you weren't doing it. I'm not saying that there weren't exceptions, but basically speaking, that's the way it was. You knew you had responsibility. And the bar mitzvah, at that time, which I'll talk about later because I also had an adult bar mitzvah, just a few years ago. But at that time, the bar mitzvah, unlike the bar mitzvah that -- shall we say, my 41:00father's time where you were bar mitzvahed and went to work. Remember, I said after so many years of schooling and then -- so, my father, for example, had no adolescence. But in our case, especially we the rich Jews in the neighborhood, we were bar mitzvah but we were -- there was no question -- I mean, not that my father and mother wouldn't have liked us to continue with studying the Hebrew and Jewish history, but most kids, including my brother, just -- that was the end of it as far as Jewish education, per se. I continued a little longer because I did like some of the things that I was learning and I became very interested in non-Biblical Jewish history. In those days -- I really don't know 42:00how much is going on now in the religious schools about going beyond the -- what we used to call the khumesh [Pentateuch], which is the Five Books of Moses. And that was about it. If you had studied all Five Books of Moses -- and as the bar mitzvah, that would be announced. At the bar mitzvah, this young guy, young kid has read the entire khumesh and knew the translation at thirteen. But I wanted to go -- I mean, once I got interested, I wanted to go further and learn a little more about -- not so much being skilled in Hebrew but actually just wanted to know more. Yeah, so anyhow, that was my background.

CW:And I want to come back to your time in the service. But we have been talking 43:00about your very early years.

WR:Yes.

CW:Can you just give me a snapshot of kind of your occupation and the members of your family as an adult and then we'll go back?

WR:Yeah, sure. Well, I was in the Army, in the United States Army in World War II from early 1943 till the end of -- I guess, yeah, it was pretty close to the end of '45 because the war in Europe was over in May and the war in Japan was over in August. And I was discharged in September, a month after the Japanese surrender. And at that time, as I said, my father was in business. He had his own little good -- I mean, it was a good size bottling plant, but when you compare it to Coca-Cola or the big ones, it was a whole different story. So, I 44:00was one of the fortunate young men who, at that time, by -- able to going in my father's business, I could consider that if I met the right girl, I could get married. And at that time, there was a GI Bill, which also made a big difference. In my case, it wasn't so much education as it was being able to buy a house immediately. I mean, that's a story in itself and what the GI Bill meant to the -- it was to the individual involved, but just our country was put in an entirely different position because of the skills of these young guys who normally would have to go to work without any skill. But they were young men -- and I keep talking about the men because at that time, women were part of it, 45:00but it was such a small fraction. But anyway, some of these men went back to high school because they had dropped out to help the family and then went on to college. So, the reason I'm bringing it up, too, is because people who don't know Jews well always think of Jews, probably, as people who don't go through the agonies of the economy and things that the non-Jew did in the United States. But it was bad. I knew people who went through exactly that. Young Jewish men got out of the service and went back to finish high school and went on to college. And it was a blessing in terms of what it did for the individuals and for the country, having these people have a chance like that. Which makes it 46:00even more -- well, I hate to think about it, because of the fact that one of the things I came out of the Army with was a thought that this would be the way things would be. Anyhow, but at least that generation who went -- was the immediate -- the generation that were called on to serve, and some of them went through terrible things. And if you survived, you had that waiting for you. And that was very meaningful.

CW:And --

WR:And then, I got married, (laughs) okay.

CW:So, you got married and --

WR:Very shortly after -- I met my wife within, I think, a month of getting discharged. I went to New York to visit family and the next thing I knew (laughs) -- they were always fixing up a (UNCLEAR) and the Yiddish expression is 47:00called a shidekh [arranged marriage]. You know that word? Yeah, a match was made. Well, in Europe, it happened. But in most cases, in the United States, it was typical for a young man, a young woman who were supposedly in a shidekh or supposed to have a shidekh just to -- for that very reason would say, "I don't want to meet her. I just don't want to meet her." But on the other hand, in my case, it worked. And there was a young woman waiting for me. She didn't know I existed, I didn't know she existed, but when we met, we knew we existed. And she came from an Orthodox family. And fortunately for me, I was no longer Orthodox, certainly, but at least I had the background so that I could understand what was going on in her life and her family. So, then we married. Actually, she was just 48:00in her senior year in college. So, we waited until she finished. She went to Hunter in New York and we got married. And we had a house almost immediately and a baby came right after that. And at twenty-three, I was a -- you know what they say in Yiddish? A gants mentsh [respectable person]? You've heard that expression, yeah. So, you see, as we talk, these things come back to me.

CW:A whole man. (laughs)

WR:A whole man. A whole person. Right, a gants mentsh. So, that was it, which leads people from my generation, Jewish and non-Jewish who had had these things happen to them when they were younger and they look at the twenty-three-year-old boy today and they say, He's a kid! (laughs) And by the way, that was typical. There were many young men who, shortly after getting out of the Army or Navy, 49:00would meet a girl and a decision was made very quickly and they'd get married. Course, in those days, there was no such thing as living together. I'm sure it existed, but that was not the kind of thing that was done and you didn't think in those terms. If you find the right person or you -- at least you think it's the right person, you become engaged and then you marry and that's it, yeah? So, it was funny in the sense that later on in life, you find out that there's a whole change in our society and cultural values and all that and you see people living together and you say to yourself, I was born in the wrong generation. (laughs) I'm sure you heard that one, too. I mean, this has nothing to do with being Jewish. But of course, it was one of the Jewish values to marry and take 50:00on responsibility early. And there was a way of treating your wife. I'm not saying it was the greatest thing in the world but, I mean -- and at that time, there was no such thing -- if you could believe it, I'm sure there are always exceptions about wife beating -- Jews, there was no wife beating. A Jewish man was -- they used the expression, You make a living. You're responsible to make a living for your wife and family. And drinking, of course, would have meant -- I mean, heavy drinking, 'cause everybody drank. And in Jewish families, everybody drank. Even though you're a little kid, at Passover time, they would -- you're supposed to have four cups of wine during the seder and we were always told to drink, but take a sip. And it was that kind of thing. So, I guess what I'm 51:00trying saying is -- understanding moderation and understanding responsibility. Yeah, again, it was just -- that was the way of life. And there certainly were young people, boys and girls, who didn't live that or fought it all the time and later on, lived the way they wanted to live. But nevertheless, the great majority of us were that kind. It's funny, when you grow up with that kind of training or an understanding, sometimes it is the -- you're not even told. You just somehow or other -- maybe it's osmosis or something that you learn that that's the way it is. But as I say, another interesting thing was if you had that kind of a feeling about your Jewishness, about your relationship to your family and the community, you just did it automatically and you knew if you 52:00decided you didn't want to do it, you knew that you were off the path that you should be on. And then, a recognition, 'cause we knew exactly what -- where we -- what we should be doing, the life we should be lead--

CW:So, I'd like to talk a little bit about your experience in the service. First of all, just -- you entered the service in '43?

WR:Yeah, what I did was I took a -- I was normally supposed to graduate college in June of '43. And the draft board was after me for about two years because age-wise, I was eligible at eighteen, and here I was in college. And in most 53:00cases, these eighteen-year-olds were subject to the draft immediately, even if you were in college, because you generally were a freshman, at most a sophomore. And the draft boards just figured, All right, as they used to say, God willing, he'll survive the war and he'll come back and finish up. But I was already a junior when the draft board started talking, getting in touch with me, It's time to get drafted into the Army. And I explained that I only had another year and a half and I would go to school in the summer, 'cause I was at Brown and Brown was one of the colleges that offered an extra semester for that reason. And the draft board accepted it. And so, then I graduated in January of '43 and a week later I was in the Army. But, I mean, again, I didn't think it was an awful 54:00thing. I thought I was one of the lucky ones to be given that extra privilege of -- so, actually, at twenty years old, I was a college graduate and that's when I went in the service, yeah. And one of the interesting things that happened at that point, besides the fact that I had to learn to live with all kinds of young guys -- 'cause in my experience, basically living in what we called the east side of Providence, which was sort of like the real middle-class and some people that were upper-middle and wealthy, for that matter. But anyway, the fact that we were Jews among a non-Jewish majority, socioeconomically, we were just about the same kind of people. You learn that after the fact. But anyway, so I had to 55:00learn, as most young men did, how to live with people that were not of your kind of background and interests and experience and education and so forth. So, that's the first thing that hits you. And then, of course, as I said, in those days, there was still a lot of anti-Semitism. And as a Jew, you -- not that necessarily it happened, but you knew that it could happen. So, you're kind of wary until you really know the men you're living with and then you can -- trust will set in and friendship and all that. But that was the way it was. But one of the most interesting things that happened to me was I had never eaten treyf [not kosher]. I had gone out -- I mean, I had girlfriends and so forth and we went 56:00out to eat but I never ordered any -- I never would eat pork products or shellfish. So, I felt that I was sort of respecting my parents and my grandfather this way. But to get into the Army, things have to change. You have no choice. And religiously, it didn't make such a big difference to me, was just the idea that I wasn't used to eating -- well, anyway, one of the kids I became friendly with immediately said to me, "Let's go down to the PX," which was the post exchange where you could get something to eat -- I mean, it wasn't necessarily waiting for the Army to feed you. You'd go down to this PX and I said, "Fine." And he ordered a ham and cheese sandwich. And I had never eaten anything like that. First of all, you're talking about pork product, and secondly, it's not kosher even to combine meat with dairy. So, I said to myself, 57:00I might as well do it right now because I'm gonna have to get used to this because that's the way it's gonna be. And so, I ordered one, too. And I said to myself and then I said to him, "I think I died and gone to heaven." I'll never forget that, at twenty years old, that should -- to come to that, finally come to that conclusion that it's not -- you're not gonna be punished. You're gonna enjoy it. (laughs) Yeah.

CW:And then, where were you stationed during --

WR:Okay, I first was assigned to the Air Corps. In those days, the Army controlled the Air Corps, the air fighting. Today, it's a special Army Air Force. It's a different department of the Army completely -- I mean, of the military. Anyway, so I went to Miami Beach, where the Army had taken over and 58:00was training. Because of my eyes not being good, I could not fly. So, I was learning administrative work in the Air Force. And then, within a couple of years, I was being trained and -- I don't even think I was close to being sent overseas when the reverses of the American Army in World War II, both the United States -- I mean, both Europe and Japan were such that they needed men very badly as replacements for the guys who were killed and wounded. So, I was transferred. I was one of the men who was transferred to an infantry unit, which was, in its own way, scary as hell. And then, I was very lucky in the sense that 59:00I was assigned to a division, whereas most of the guys who went through replacement like that were sent immediately overseas to replace somebody who had been wounded or killed. And so, I had an extra month of training and learning how to handle myself as an infantryman because we went overseas as a division. And then, well, we went to -- our first area was England, where most of the troops that ended up on the continent went first. And again, I was again fortunate because I was with my own unit. And it's nice to have someone, a buddy or buddies who are going through the same thing you are, and you manage to keep 60:00yourself together that way. Sometimes, you feel you have to. For example, as I said, I was twenty. By the time I was in Europe, I was twenty-one and we had eighteen and nineteen-year-old kids coming in as replacements. And I used to say to myself, Look what these kids are going through, and you're a twenty, twenty-one-year old -- is a man. I mean, that was one of the things that was very hard to take, seeing these little kids practically. Anyhow, so we spent some time in England getting ready to cross the Channel and we could get to France and then be driven up to the front. And so, what happened at that point was -- I'm going through a few years here now, quickly -- that division, our 61:00division, ended up as being one of the infantry divisions that was sent up to the -- have you ever heard of the Battle of the Bulge? Yeah. All right, so we were like, the people among the groups that cleaned up the Bulge. The Germans were finally turned back and the divisions that were up in front with them were the ones that took the brunt of their coming down. Well, what we did was continue chasing the Germans back to Germany. And so, I am considered as a person who survived the Battle of the Bulge. In a way, I am, but I mean -- but I don't feel as though what I went through with -- those guys who had to really face the Germans. We saw individuals in units but we didn't really have battles, 62:00I mean, at that point, which is what the other men faced. We had to do some shooting and things like that, but it wasn't the kind of thing, as I said, that so many of the other guys had gone through. So, anyway, but in spite of all that, the fact that -- it seems like every story I'm telling you, I'm telling you I was the lucky one, 'cause in a way, I was. And what happened was right after the Battle of the Bulge, we got as far as Luxembourg, which is right on the German border. In Luxembourg, I found out, I realized that I had a lot of trouble with my feet. They weren't right. So, I went to see -- there's a medic, we call him, who are trained men in handling problems that can occur while the 63:00battle is on or subsequently. And I found out that I really had frozen feet. And I'll never forget the way the medic, who was a corporal, said to me, "Will, I'm gonna have to send you back to the battalion aid station." You know M*A*S*H? That's what it was. It was like a M*A*S*H unit. And he said, "They'll probably keep you there for a couple of days and your feet'll get better and then you'll come back." So, again, it wasn't a question in my mind that, Oh, I wish it was something worse than that so I wouldn't be sent back. I just understood that that's the way things work. If you're better, you go back. Well, it didn't work that way for me. My feet were much worse than I thought. I was sent to France, 64:00to a hospital in France, Army -- it was, no, it wasn't even the Army. The United States Army must have taken it over, but it was the Notre Dame hospital in Paris. Oh, I remember that. I wasn't walking at that point. And I figured, Well, this'll be it. I'll be taken care of here and I'll go back, just -- well, then, it didn't happen because in France, the decision was made to send me and the other men like me who -- many of them had much worse conditions. We were sent to England, and there we were in Army hospitals. And so, in any case, the war in Europe ended while I was in the hospital and I was sent to a convalescent center in -- I think it was Birmingham, England. And from there, I was sent home. So, 65:00you can see how things worked out. In that case, it was -- and you never thought or you didn't normally think of yourself as, Why is this happening to me? With me, it was, What a lucky guy! Because I saw everything and one of the -- I don't like to dwell on this, but the truth was that one of the worst things for me was not only the fact that we were living outside on the -- it was cold, wet, and that was one of the reasons my feet went, because we couldn't change the conditions. Your feet get wet and cold and that was it. You lived with it. I mean, until you could be taken back, and so that we took -- mobile showers and a 66:00change of clothing was possible. But anyway, this business of feeling -- being even that young to realize that, in a way, I was lucky. And the other thing that really got me besides the climate and the weather that we had to live with was the things I saw in the civilian populations as we went through. And as I told you, I was a very sensitive kid. And I just felt -- my heart went out to these people. I didn't get as far as Germany, because in Luxembourg is where it all stopped for me. But I often wonder how -- would I feel that way about the German civilians? Looking back, yes, I should -- in other words, I probably should 67:00have, if I had more -- but I know at the time, I don't think I'd be any different than anybody else. Good. It's good they're suffering. Yeah. So, that's my story.

CW:Were there any experiences sort of as a Jew in the service that stand out to you, meeting other Jewish people or --

WR:Well --

CW:-- moments that you felt particularly Jewish?

WR:I had a few very close friends. And I'm (UNCLEAR) about the time I got into the infantry. And there were a couple of them who I -- were really buddies. It was the kind of thing that you remember probably all your life, whether you see them again or not. So, I had that experience and, again, in a way, at twenty, I was one of the older guys. And so, it was interesting the way I could, in 68:00certain area -- forgetting the -- being a soldier and knowing things that the other younger men might not know. It was more or the less of -- I had experience already in life. So, that drew some of the younger kids closer to me, especially the Jewish boys. Yeah, so in that way was a good thing, a positive thing. There was always -- you knew that as a Jew, you were looked upon as sort of being different. Not necessarily hated or even people you -- I mean, again, because we're Jewish, they wouldn't want to have anything to do with you. There were enough that hated you but the -- in the long run, I think by and large, if you had a chance to get to know each other, things would work out well. But, as I said, some of the people you met -- and especially if they were officers, who 69:00were definitely anti-Semitic, and you couldn't do much about it. You lived with it and -- I mean, for example, this didn't happen to me but one of these younger Jewish boys had -- I became so friendly with was talking to one of his superior officers and something came out, like, the kid was complaining in general to the officer. And nothing about being Jewish or anything, but about the fact that he was getting the kind of assignments that he felt wasn't fair, that it wasn't distributed evenly. Minor things, but they were important enough for him to want to see an officer about it. And the man said to him, "This war's being fought for you people, so you better accept anything that's told to you." Imagine being 70:00eighteen, nineteen years old and hearing that. So, that's the kind of thing that I knew existed. And I knew there were fights. And not so much in my company but in adjoining companies where Jewish boys were being picked on, picked on, picked on, and in some cases, they were just miserable. In other cases, the Jewish boy was finally told, "Look, you don't have to take this," and they beat the hell out of the guy that had been tormenting him. And it was like a triumph and we heard about things like this. Yeah. But personally, again -- well, of course, at that time, I was about six-foot-three and I wasn't very big but I was very strong. And I think some of these guys who might have gone for it just avoided 71:00me. I was, again -- luck. (laughs)

CW:Was there a sense for you and maybe some of -- yeah, well, for you, especially, that you were fighting this war for your fellow Jews?

WR:Oh, yeah. There was a feeling -- in other words, it was almost a general feeling among the group of Jewish boys that I grew up with that you had to do it. You may not like it and it wasn't a question of liking but you knew you had to do it. Matter of fact, I had one friend who was actually -- went to the -- we had to go take physicals and the thing was -- the best thing that could happen is that something came up where your medical record was such that the Army 72:00didn't want to touch you. But funny thing is in my case and these other young men who I was talking about, Jewish men, basically would be disappointed. Truthfully. And I remember one particular situation where a classmate of mine at Brown who I knew from -- because we were both Providence kids -- who had had infantile paralysis as a child. And he had one leg that was shorter and thinner than the other. And he came limping into the doctor's line there where they check you out and the first doctor said to him -- his name was Isalus. "Isalus, what are you doing here? As soon as you were told that you were draft material, somebody should have said to you right off the bat, you're not Army material." 73:00And this kid was so upset that he said, "You know, I'm one of the best table tennis players in the United States," which he was. And he said, "And I'm considered number fifteen in the country and I know all fourteen men that can beat me." And he says, "And you're telling me that I can't do something in the Army?" And he was accepted. I know when I tell stories like that today to young people today, they don't believe. I mean, they figure the thing to do is to stay out, especially the wars they know about, starting with Vietnam. They feel, which I agree, you got to be out of your mind to want to be in those situations. So, we found ourselves in these situations that, whether you like it or not, you 74:00have to take it. But again, a great majority of kids I was friendly with were people who felt it was important to them to -- have you heard that before, by the way, in your conversations with men who'd been in World War II? I'm sure -- no. Anyway, so -- but it's true.

CW:Well, I want to shift gears here a little bit 'cause we don't have too much time left, and I want to talk about when you were creating your own family and just wondering the role, if any, that Yiddish language and culture had in your own family and in your own life, adult life.

WR:Well, as I was explaining up to now to -- the idea of knowing that I was a 75:00son of two Eastern European Jews whose first language was Yiddish. And my father, especially, was, in his own way, in spite of the fact that his education's stopped -- I mean formal -- at thirteen was a scholar. And with him, it wasn't so much the religion, being a Jewish -- but that he felt so strongly about his Jewish identity and what -- and then again, what the Jews of his generation in Russia were going through and how infrequently -- you know, in Russia you could take the easy way out and convert and you were accepted. And 76:00accepted meant that you had the opportunity to do anything you were capable of doing, whereas the Jewish people were second-class citizens and they had to keep their place, let's put it that way. So anyway, knowing that about him -- and then my grandfather was also in the czar's army in his day. So, that was one of the things that impressed me. And then, as I learned more about the history of Jews in general and about the role that the Eastern European Jew and Yiddish played in their lives, I was always interested. Now, my wife, as I said, Orthodox Jew. Her parents were also immigrants and she knew some Yiddish. Nothing like -- she hadn't been exposed the way I was because of the fact that in her case, her parents had spoke enough Yiddish for her to pick up some. But 77:00basically, that was about the Yiddish she heard. But we were very conscious of our being Jewish and, again, the connection with the Eastern European Yiddish culture. As I told you, my father read the "Tog" and I used to get -- I didn't get directly the Yiddish papers but I read -- constantly reading the Jewish American papers, 'cause that was very important to me. And my kids -- I mean, naturally my wife went along and we had a kosher home and Shabbos meant an awful lot to her, yeah. So, it wasn't a question of my children not being exposed early to their being Jewish. But the Yiddish part, I think -- they knew what Yiddish was in spite of the fact that there was no Yiddish spoken at home. But they knew a lot about what -- I would talk about my grandparents and my father 78:00and his experiences in Europe and so forth. So, it was never a question in our minds as to what direction we were going and what the kids would learn. Again, it was the kind of thing you realize: we're living in America now and anything can happen, but we wanted the kids to have the background. And they got it, yeah.

CW:And for you personally, how do you stay connected to Yiddish culture?

WR:Well, as I told you, I was in business with my father. And when that business was pretty much destroyed, as so many small businesses in America were by large conglomerates coming in -- and in our case, it was Pepsi and Coke that were fighting each other and in the meantime destroyed the small bottler. And so, from there, I ended up feeling that I should really be doing something 79:00professionally in the Jewish community. And about that time, that was around the early '50s -- no, no, it was a little bit later. But whatever it was, it was by 1962, there was an opening in Providence, again, at one of the very large Reform temples for a temple administrator, which was -- at that time, it was a brand new concept. So, I was one of the earliest temple administrators in the United States in that way. And so, anyway, as far as that's concerned, there was no question of becoming part of the Jewish establishment. But the Yiddish part, by that time, wasn't stressed, and certainly not by the Reform or Conservative 80:00movement. The Orthodox were still -- many of them were Yiddish speakers. But so, I had really no opportunity to look into where I could be involved with the Yiddish culture. But I talked about it and the rabbi happened to be a man of European background and -- in spite of the fact he was a Reform rabbi and, naturally, Hebrew was the big thing. And in spite of that, he respected me for being the kind of Jew I was, the Reform shtetl Jew. (laughs) And, no, he was a very good man. He was able to -- for example, he had a mother living in Providence and the only language he spoke to her was Yiddish. But you'd never know it once you he left her house that this man was fluent in Yiddish. He knew 81:00Hebrew, he had lived in Israel. So, but that's a whole story in itself, about the fact that, in a way, the demise of Yiddish has a lot to do with Israel and Hebrew becoming the spoken language. But anyway, so I stayed in that field. I was a temple administrator, then I got involved in Jewish Federation work where I did meet men -- and I say men 'cause I really was working with men, but I also worked with the women's division in the Federation. And with the men, most of these men were like me, the same kind of backgrounds, and so we talked about things like Yiddish and the Yiddish culture and so forth and so on. Other than 82:00the rabbi, I don't think I knew anybody at that time who actually subscribed to a Yiddish newspaper, which would have made a difference to me. But that's no excuse for my not subscribing myself. But it would have made a difference in the sense that I would have that in common with someone who -- and we could talk about the Yiddish paper and how they're seeing things and so forth. But as I said, personally, my father was still living. Let's see, he died in the early '50s, so I inherited most of his Yiddish things. My brother took some of the Hebrew and very little else. So, I had my father's complete English library and complete Yiddish library. And so, that made it -- in a way, I just felt good 83:00that I had that in my house, shelves of Yiddish literature and Yiddish -- well, translations, for example. So, I always had that kinship feeling, and as I grew older and got very much involved in Jewish community work, one of the things that I think affected me was the fact that -- I think if you didn't live in New York or certainly Boston, there were no areas where you could study Yiddish culture. I didn't care so much about the Yiddish language. I would've liked that, too. But nevertheless, the thing I wanted to know more about was the Yiddish world. And I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but I did teach Sunday school. And in Sunday school, that area -- remember I said I wanted to go 84:00further, beyond the biblical studies, and you know that nowhere in the curriculum that I studied was there any real mention of the period of Jewish life in Europe just before the immigration to the United States. It was left out on purpose. And again, you're getting my point of view, but it was pretty obvious to me that that should have been taught. After all, that's the one that the kids could really relate to: their grandparents, their great-grandparents, this was their life. They knew nothing about that. They were taught nothing. And if you were fortunate enough to be in a situation where you had a close relative who had lived in a shtetl, a shtetl life, and was still interested in Yiddish, 85:00you'd learn something. But certainly not in the kheyder or the synagogue or the -- I mean, I'm talking about in general. Yiddish was already becoming the kind of language you avoided because Hebrew was the special language.

CW:Well, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about these changes that you have observed and linguistic shift that you're just alluding to.

WR:Yeah.

CW:So, I'm wondering if -- just what are the major shifts in sort of American Jewish identity that you have observed --

WR:Yeah, well --

CW:-- in your lifetime?

WR:I guess I'm a little bit disappointed, because I myself was hoping to be one of the people who changed, could be responsible -- we'll say Jewish survival in 86:00general. I don't know if it was a term which was being used, but I was a survivalist. I believe that it was important that we know -- not so much the Hebrew part, because when it became a living language, that was going to be taken care of. Whether you were a practicing Jew or not, Hebrew was the language you spoke and you learned. But on the other hand, I wanted to be involved in retaining some of that -- what I call the Old World culture. And anyway, so you already know that I didn't find it. So, of course, over the years, whereas --

CW:You were --

WR:-- the Jewish families that wanted their kids educated -- most as, again, in 87:00those years, it was the boys -- and the only place they could send them were to Orthodox kheyders, Orthodox schools, and as a result, so many of these young men didn't want any part of it. And once they left it, they'd had it. Not being Jewish.

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WR:There were actually German Jews who had been already -- there were a number of generations of German Jews. And, of course, the attrition was tremendous among them because so many of them -- not necessarily converted but, I mean, they married into non-Jewish families and that was the end of the Jewishness. So, it was basically the Eastern European Jew coming to the United States that made up the real Jewish community here. And the changes that I saw and lived 88:00through were among that group because the German Jews, they were -- I mean, those that held onto being Jewish, the famous Reform synagogues in New York City, for example, it was all part of being part of high society. But in a city like Providence, the closest thing you could do would be to be a member of the Reform temple, which I ended up being the administrator. (laughs) But anyway, what I saw as changes was basically the Eastern European Jewish population turning to -- if anything, giving up on Orthodoxy and going into the Conservative movement. Conservative movement was really an American movement. And I guess it was really important that it existed or came into existence, 89:00because I think that if the Orthodox Jew was ready to leave Orthodoxy, that was the end of the -- at least the Jewish religious part of these people's lives. So, again, what I've seen over the years is the change in, first of all, Orthodox Jews, the next generation is Conservative, the next generation is Reform, and in many cases, the next generation is already intermarried and that is it. So, I came to the conclusion -- and then, of course, having been in that world of synagogue and Federation world, I realized that if fifty percent of a Jewish community had any connection with the Jewish institutions in that community, that's a lot. In New York, it's nothing close to fifty percent. 90:00Providence, yes. And that's kind of stunning when you come from a home where being Jewish meant so much to find out that -- and I learned that pretty young, when I first got into Jewish community work. And that was a shock. And then, in the ensuing years, I've seen the continuous intermarriage thing -- and years ago, intermarriage took place, but it was usually a Jewish man marrying a non-Jewish woman who converted. In today's world, it's being done here and there, but it's not necessary. The non-Jewish woman could become part of a family where the Jewish man is not interested in doing anything about being Jewish, so in many cases, the non-Jewish woman who would go along with her 91:00husband if he was interested in continuing family would have to take over somewhere for the children's religious needs. And there's more and more of that. And I've come to the conclusion in my own mind that we're not gonna be around very long. This is my conclusion, that there will always be a core of people who are really observant Jews and caring Jews and want to see their children identify with them and, in turn, have their families that way. But it seems to me that what we're heading for in a couple of generations is a minimum number of the kind of Jews that are not really convinced Orthodox Jews. And that's -- see, 92:00again, that's my conclusion. And when I talk about this kind of thing to people who care, 'cause so many people don't care -- I mean, "It's okay if that happens, fine, that's the way it's gonna be." We're lucky that anti-Semitism doesn't keep us Jewish, 'cause a lot of people, Jewish people, feel that way. It's only because of anti-Semitism that the Jew has kept strongly identified with the rest of the Jewish population. But in my mind, I'm sorry to say that that's the conclusions I've come to about the Jewish community. So, anyway, any further questions? (laughter)

CW:Well, I do want to maybe end on a positive note --

WR:Yeah.

CW:-- and see, based on your really rich life experience, what advice you have for future generations.

WR:You mean for Jewish future gen-- well, one thing, of course, is to be aware of Jewish history and the continuity of anti-Semitism all the way through. And not that they're gonna face it themselves, 'cause hopefully in this country, it's a whole different breed as you know it. But, by the way, before World War II, being Jewish meant one thing and afterward being another. All of a sudden, the world opened up after World War II: universities, teaching in universities, getting involved with big industry and these public utilities, and jobs in 94:00general. You knew that there was a certain area where Jews could come in and exist. And housing at that time was also limited. But the Jews were very lucky -- fortunate, not lucky. They worked hard. But to be able to sustain themselves and build their own institutions. So, there was strength there and that's the way, I guess, Jewish communities in general throughout history have had to do. But many of them were destroyed. And I think that that's important, that even though you're no longer what they call a practicing Jew, that you know who you are and from whence you came and what could be happening again. Not that it would, because I would say if it's gonna happen again and you knew it, that this 95:00is the time to stop being a Jew. Do something else, but make sure that you and your family are not going to be in that category. But I don't feel that way. So, right now, I would like to feel that most Jewish families, whatever their religious practice is or isn't, that at least they bring their children up to know who they are. And there's so much to be proud of. That's another thing. I mean, the truth is it's just a matter of understanding that we lived in an anti-Semitic world for so long, but also, look at the richness of our history and tradition and the accomplishments Jews have made. I think that's where I would put my hope for the future.

CW:Well, a sheynem dank [thank you very much].

WR:A sheynem dank.

[END OF INTERVIEW]