RUTH GLAZERMAN ORAL HISTORY

SANDRA RUBIN:  This is Sandra Rubin, and today is October 19, 2011.  I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Ruth Glazerman, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.  Ruth, do I have your permission to record this interview?

RUTH GLAZERMAN: You do.

SR:  Thank you.  Okay.  So, can you tell me about your family background?  When and from where did your family emigrate, and how did they end up in Maine?

RG:  (laughs) Well, my mother's family and my father's family were originally 1:00from Russia.  And both my mother and my father's family ended up on farms in the United States.  My dad's family were in Cleveland -- now, the Cleveland area --- actually at that time, it was Chagrin Falls, which was all farmland.  And my mother's family was not far from here, on Route 2, in Athol, Massachusetts, which is on the Mohawk Trail.  My mother and father are cousins.  And my dad went from Cleveland to Maine to -- as he tells it, he hitchhiked up to visit a cousin, and when got there, it was so far, he didn't leave.  But he became friendly with, you know, other Jewish people in the community, one of whom had a friend in Chicago.  And my dad remembered he had a cousin in Chicago, and so he decided he would go to Chicago as well, when his 2:00friend was visiting his friend.  And that's where he met my mother.  And the story goes, they met at the ferris wheel at the World's Fair.  (laughs) And that was in 1936 World's Fair in Chicago.  They went back to Maine.  My dad proposed.  He said to my mother, "Can you live on" --- I don't know -- "forty dollars a week?" -- or something.  And when they got married, my mother found out he wasn't making quite that much.  And he said, "Well, you know, forty dollars a week in Chicago is like thirty dollars a week in Maine."  (laughs) And they continued on for the next sixty-odd years.  And I was born in Auburn, Maine -- well, actually, Lewiston, Maine.

SR:  And would you say that you grew up in a Jewish home?

RG:  Yes.

SR:  And what about your home and family felt Jewish?

RG:  It was a Jewish home.  My parents were both -- heavily identified as 3:00Jewish.  My mother was more observant in her expression of Judaism than my dad.  But we had a kosher home.  Auburn, Maine is a twin city -- Auburn and Lewiston are twin cities -- and the Jewish community was one community.  In Lewiston, they had a Conservative synagogue -- that was it.  And in Auburn, there was an Orthodox shul, and that was it.  And we belonged to both.  We attended services at the Orthodox shul, and our Hebrew education was at the Lewiston synagogue, which was Conservative.  That was the only Hebrew school for the community.

SR:  Can you describe your neighborhood growing up?  What did it look like?  What were the relations among the ethnic groups?  Who were your friends?

RG:  Um-hm. In Auburn, it was mostly a white Protestant community.  Lewiston 4:00was a large French Canadian community.  I was one of five Jews in my high school class.  In elementary school, there were -- I think I was the only one in my grade in my particular elementary school.  So I was really known as Ruthie -- my maiden name was Flock, F-L-O-C-K, and I was known as Ruthie Flock, the little Jewish girl.  And we had a strong sense of responsibility, knowing that we represented what Judaism was.  So particularly outside the home -- or maybe that's -- I don't know, we were careful not to do things that would reflect poorly on the Jewish community.  It wasn't just me as an individual, but it was -- I was also identified as part of a group.  The street I grew up 5:00on was at that time a dead-end street.  We had a couple of neighbors -- they were private homes.  It was a modest home, but it was a very -- and we had a coup-- two bedroom, three bedrooms, and a little backyard, and my dad had built a little stone fireplace in the backyard, which was where we would barbecue.  And I mention that particularly because many years later, of recent years, I went back -- so it was probably sixty years later I went back -- and it's no longer a quiet, dead-end street.  The community's business area has moved out to that part of town, and they cut through the street, and it's now a zone for 6:00business.  My home, the first time I visited it (laughs) about fifty years ago, had become a store where they sell clothing, and then my bedroom was -- they would have tables where they would lay out the material.  And our house had -- you know, we had two floors, and you would come down the steps to a little landing, and then you'd come out this way.  It was really quite lovely.  And (laughs) I remember the people saying to me -- when I said, you know, "I lived here fifty years ago," they said, Were you happy there?  And the strangest thing fell over me -- I started to cry.  I said, "I was very happy there."  But, you know, it was very poignant.  And I left quickly, because I really started to cry.  And then subsequently, I went back to my hometown for a funeral of a relative, and I drove by where the house was, and it was no longer where they had -- they sold fabrics; it was now a tattoo parlor.  (laughs) And the backyard where my -- we had this, you know, little grassy area, and where my 7:00dad had made the fireplace, was long gone, and it was now a parking lot.  It was a little -- you can't go home sometimes.  (laughs)

SR:  Yeah, it's true.  How did it feel to be one of the solitary Jews, and to have this responsibility of always behaving and making things look right?

RG:  Actually, it was comfortable.  I was comfortable in my Judaism.  And, you know, proud.  It was very much part of my identity.  In a way, particularly in high school, it worked out socially quite well.  I was not allowed to date anyone who wasn't Jewish, so there's probably something a little exotic about what you can't have, so we -- (laughs) so the boys kind of liked me, and the girls liked me 'cause I was off limits.  (laughs) You know?  And I had the distinction -- you know how things are when you're kids -- of being the first Jewish girl that was a member of the Queen's Court for Winter Carnival.  8:00(laughs) I remember working on the school paper.  I was, I think, the feature editor.  And at that time, when they would write stories at Christmastime, I used to feel that it was important to put in something about the Jewish holiday or Jewish celebrations at that time of the year.  And it was -- okay.  Okay.  I think maybe once in the whole growing up years I encountered anti-Semitism.  I think it was -- the only separation, maybe, would be more of not -- not a complete acceptance, because, in fact, part of it was on my part -- that I was separate.  I would be involved with social activities with the other girls, not -- and any school function, if it was a dance, I didn't usually go.  And that 9:00one time when it was the -- you're a junior or a senior -- it was Winter Carnival, it was a big deal -- I would always invite somebody from out of school who was Jewish -- you know, to be with me.  There were five girls and two boys -- two Jews in my class, so I used to date the older boys that were a year older, from Lewiston.  (laughs)

SR:  What organizations were you and your family involved with in your community?  What was the degree of involvement?  Did you belong to the synagogue?

RG:  Yes.  Well, I mentioned that we belonged to the synagogues.  Again, in a community like this, many of the people were involved in many of the Jewish organizations.  We had a Jewish Community Center, and when I became a teenager, I was a youth leader, and I used to -- and our family belonged, and I think at one point, my dad may have been president of the organization.  Brandeis 10:00Women's Committee started in the years that I was growing up, and my mother was one of the founding members of the local chapter.  We also had Hadassah.  In fact, I thought the name of the group was "For'dassah," because every mother would say, "Oh, we can't do this now, this is for Hadassah, this is for Hadassah, this is for Hadassah."  (laughs) So it was a long period of time -- I have one sister -- that's my only sibling -- we grew up on peanut butter sandwiches, 'cause mother was busy with "For'dassah."  (laughter) And I think those were the Jewish -- you know, my folks were involved with Sisterhood and Brotherhood at the synagogue, and -- whatever there was, we were a part of.  (laughs)

SR:  Did you go to summer camp --

RG:  I did.

SR:  -- and if so, how did it influence you?

RG:  Extraordinarily -- it was an extraordinary experience, and it was a huge 11:00influence on my life.  I did go to summer camp.  And I went to a camp called Camp Lown.  It was a camp that was started for the purpose of giving Jewish children in Maine an opportunity to live Jewishly in the summer.  There were some of my friends who would be the only Jewish family in a little town.  There would be a little town, and there would be one Jewish family.  And they were these isolated communities.  And then we would all come together in the summer.  And it was a kosher camp.  And I think eventually, Ramah became --- it was even part of the Ramah Camp -- being family, but it was never called a Ramah camp.  I only learned that subsequently to being a camper there.  I went from maybe the time I was ten until eighteen, and my younger sister started when she was six and continued till was eighteen.  So it was really a home away from 12:00home.  We went during the years that Brandeis University first started, so although we probably didn't appreciate it, but we used to have visits from -- Abram Sachar came up on a regular basis, leaders in the Jewish and the Israeli communities visited camp, would speak to the kids, would participate in some of the cultural experiences that we had there.  We would reenact experiences that would happen in Israel during a wartime.  We'd be divided into two -- this wasn't the color war, but we'd be divided into two groups.  And I can remember hiding behind a bunk because you didn't want to be caught by the opposition.  And they'd try to make the whole experience of the formation of the State of Israel and the challenges that were held by the Israelis become real to us as 13:00kids.  And it was good.  You know, we observed Shabbat and we observed Tisha B'Av and the other holidays in the summertime.  There was a cultural component, a learning to the camp as well as all the activities one has at camp.  We used to take our one shower a week, erev [eve of] Shabbos, on Friday -- everybody would line up (laughs) for your bunk's turn at the one shower room that they had -- one for boys and one for girls.  And it really -- I think it had a major influence on my -- cementing my identity as a Jew.

SR:  Interesting.  Where was the camp?

RG:  It was in Oakland, Maine.  It was on a lake, right next to a camp that had a lot of Jewish kids called Manitou -- it's an old -- Manitou's been there for many years -- I think it's still there.  Camp Lown has since dissolved; 14:00it's no longer a camp.  But we would -- we were very close -- the waterfronts were very close to one another, and we used to hear their bugle (laughs) sounding time for various things during the course of the day.

SR:  Wow, interesting.  Are there any stories that you'd like to share, either from camp or something that happened to you that has a Jewish connection -- living -- growing up in your town?

RG:  I don't know that there would be any -- I would say there are a couple of things that I have been sensitive about, and that has been -- growing up, the impression was that I was both rich and intelligent because I was Jewish.  It 15:00was the perception of some of the folks -- my contemporaries who were not Jewish.  And I guess I kind of felt -- and it wasn't always with adulation (laughs) that that was said.  And I thought it was important to unders-- we were not rich in money.  I would say we were rich in family.  And we had a lot of opportunities, but I wouldn't say we were rich.  But I felt -- I didn't want to be excluded because I was either -- you know -- I wasn't like everybody else, if you will.  So that was always kind of a button for me.  And again, I went off to college -- I went to Boston University.  They had a certain -- a system 16:00of governance, because the dorms were quite large -- I think we had sixty, in those days, it was girls, on a floor, and the way they organized it was that on each floor they would have, like a -- I don't know if they called it a president or a chairman or -- there would be somebody in charge.  And for a couple of years, I was that person on my floor, and as part of that, we had also older people who were the resident assistants or whatever.  Many of the people on my floor were Jewish -- probably most of them.  But these resident assistants weren't.  And often, when I would be in their company, I would hear, "You know, you're not like those others."  And again, it was a feeling of exclusion and a feeling of -- to me, that was sort of a type of anti-Semitism in both ways, 17:00although it wasn't -- it was supposed to be complimentary to me in both situations, and yet I felt very sensitive about that, in that it was a type of anti-Semitism I was very uncomfortable with.

SR:  Yeah.  Had you experienced anti-Semitism other times?

RG:  Overtly, no.  Maybe once when I was a kid -- you know, Don't do that, she's Jewish.  But not really.  Unh-uh.

SR:  Have there been any experiences or historic events or social movements that were particularly formative to your sense of identity?

RG:  I don't think so.  You know, I have to say, maybe it's that I've always lived in an environment that hasn't been challenging to who I am or what I believe; I'm very comfortable with being Jewish.  (phone rings) I remember once 18:00-- I'm gonna sing to the music -- I remember once, we had to do an exercise where you had to stand in one of four corners, and one corner was identif-- was, How would you identify yourself: as an American, as a woman, as a Jew, or as a human being?  And for me it was a no-brainer: I was in the corner of being a Jew.  And, you know, that's how I've been my whole life.

SR:  So that's your primary identity?

RG:  It really is.  Right.  And I grew up during the years where feminism was just starting to take over.  And there were many who wanted to be considered 19:00just Americans.  But I felt being Jewish, I could be all of those.

SR:  Are there aspects of Jewish culture that you have been particularly involved in or that have been particularly important to you -- for example, theater, musical performance, films?  Is there a book that had a special impact on you?  And why?

RG:  Um -- no.  (laughs) I have not been involved in theater or Jewish music or Jewish -- I've belonged to Jewish book groups.  I've belonged to Brandeis women's book group for many years, particularly when my kids were young.  So we read a lot of Jewish literature in translation.  I don't know that they've had 20:00a major impact on me; I think I seek out those things that have Jewish content, because that's where I'm interested and comfortable.

SR:  Um-hm. And so what has been the most important thing for you to transmit to the generations after you about Jewish identity?  What are the values, traditions, rituals, language?  How do you think the identity of younger generations of Jews differs from yours?

RG:  Well, I'll start with the last question first.  I think that the younger generation identify differently, absolutely.  I think that they are far away -- I think that they are very comfortable growing up in a multicultural environment.  I think they see that -- my personal children have identified 21:00Jewishly, but they've identified absolutely within the American environment.  They have much more of a sense of entitlement, a sense of belonging, a sense of democratization.  I think they're much -- they're very accepting of other people and other ways of doing things, and don't necessarily see themselves in any way different from them in terms of opportunity or -- I think they see it all much differently.  For instance, I have four children.  Two of them have married non-Jews: one married a woman who's Indian; one married a man who is Irish, from Ireland.  And yet, all four of them have chosen to live Jewish 22:00lives and identify Jewishly.  But they are accepting of -- and particularly the two that have married out of the Jewish community, and those spouses have not converted, and I don't believe they ever will -- they are accepting of their spouses' families and family culture and family history.  But the one thing that I think is consistent among now what I consider all eight of our children is the sense of family and the sense of importance of family and family values.  And in terms of what is most important to me, is family -- and, as an extension, Judaism.  It used to be the other way around.  It used to be Judaism first and family second, but I've changed.  Fortunately, they both stay 23:00together.  (laughs) But that was a learning experience for me.

SR:  But what has been the most important things for you to transmit to your children and grandchildren about Jewish identity?

RG:  I think acceptance of differences, even within the Jewish community.  And that's a very -- I feel very strongly about that philosophically.  In fact, there's an organization in Boston called the (laughs) -- (pauses) -- the Synagogue Council of Massachusetts -- senior moment -- of which I was president.  And the purpose of that is -- it's a pluralistic organization which really tries to bring together Jews of all stripes -- which is no easy task.  24:00And one of the most important activities of that organization -- which is a trip to New York, where they visit each of the institutes of relig-- they invite leadership in the Jewish community to go to New York, and they visit leaders in each -- they visit each of the institutes of learning, and they meet with the president of JTS or Yeshiva University or the union -- representatives of the Reconstructionist movement, or the dean, and they have study sessions, prayer sessions, and so forth -- for the purpose of letting other Jews see what each of us believes and how we experience our Judaism.  Because frankly, there's often more problems among us Jews than from those from the outside.  And I would hope that my children would be as welcoming and respectful of other Jews and feel a 25:00part of Judaism within that context.  As it happens, I have one child who belongs to a Reconstructionist synagogue, one belongs to a Reform congregation, one to a Conservative, and one to a Humanist group.  (laughs) So they, I guess, are representing different aspects of Judaism -- while their first cousins go more toward the other end, with the modern Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox.  But I would want them to continue, should they choose, their opportunities to live Jewishly.  And we are fortunate that we can do that in the United States.

SR:  Interesting.  Has the Yiddish language played any role in your life?

RG:  When I was young.  My parents spoke Yiddish, and they would only speak Yiddish when they didn't want me or my sister to understand.  So except for the expressions that have found their way into the English language -- and I have to say that I really have very -- I have no contact with Yiddish.  When the Yiddish Book Center was first starting -- I mentioned that the farm was in Athol.  Well, I have relatives that continue to live in Athol and Orange and Greenfield, which is nearby.  And so early on, they were very aware of what was happening here and were involved.  And my folks were made aware of the formation of the Yiddish Book Center.  They supported it to some extent -- not 27:00a lot, (UNCLEAR).  But they would have donations made in their honor, or they would make donations in honor -- that sort of thing.  And knowing that it was important to them to support such an institution, you know, we've had some tangential connection with the Yiddish Book Center.  But Yiddish has really not played a part in my life, other than courses I may have taken in Yiddish literature.

SR:  Did you go to a Hebrew school?  And for how long?  And how important was that to you in your life?

RG:  I did go to Hebrew school.  Hebrew school, as I may have mentioned, was held at the Conservative synagogue.  It was an after school program.  And I went (makes air quotes) religiously, and was not a good student -- I'm not a good student in language to begin with.  The education wasn't what we would consider modern.  (laughs) If you didn't do it, it was a slap on the wrist.  28:00But I can read Hebrew, and I love going to services.  And I'm interested now in studying Hebrew.  But anyway, you asked -- but I did go there till it was time -- there was no such thing as bat mitzvah when growing up, because Reform Judaism was considered for the goyim (laughs) -- the culture where I grew up put Reform Judaism and the League of Women Voters in the same (laughs) basket, so people were really either Orthodox or Conservative.  Many of the people living in my community were first generation or children of first generation folks.  But as an adult, I really wanted to be -- I like going to Torah study; I like 29:00learning, you know, about religion and history.  And I thought if I could read the Hebrew and understand biblical Hebrew, that that would be really -- it would enhance what I was learning.  So I've been taking -- as an adult, recently -- been taking a course in adult biblical Hebrew.  But I'm a terrible student, and it's very hard for me.  (laughs) I'm not making a lot of progress.  And so I think I'm gonna just have to stick to English.  (laughs) But I will say, the good thing about learning Hebrew is, when I was in school, we used to be able to write notes to each other using the Hebrew characters that would read English, and the teachers couldn't decipher them.  (laughs)

SR:  (UNCLEAR).  (laughs) Where did you meet your husband?  And was his background similar to yours or different?

RG:  I met my husband at -- I got a summer job working at a place called Laboratory for Electronics in Brookline -- Boston -- it was in Brighton -- where he was a manager of contracts there.  And his secretary, who was married, and Jewish, started the same time I began working there.  And she thought it would be really important for him to meet this new Jewish girl who just started, so she introduced us.  And six months later we were married.

SR:  Wow.

RG:  Lee came -- my husband, Lee -- came from a family which -- although they were both Jewish, it was like a mixed religion.  His dad had an interesting story.  He came from Russia.  He was there; he had an older brother, married with four children, and some other siblings.  One day, the Cossacks came through.  There was a pogrom.  They all hid in the basement of their house.  31:00A while later, the older brother went out to see if everything was clear.  He didn't come back.  My father-in-law went out looking for his brother and found him dead.  He subsequently took the wife -- his sister-in-law -- and the four children and helped them, with him, escape through Romania, where they lived for a period of time.  He cared for them, and eventually helped them get here to the United States, where she had a brother that facilitated that.  And my father-in-law tried really hard to get to Palestine, but was unable to do that, so he came to the States.  And at that time, he was probably in his early twenties.  He met also a cousin of his, who was born in Europe, but came here when she was an infant.  My mother-in-law spoke perfect English.  Whenever she 32:00would hear a word she didn't know, she would look it up, she would write it down, and then she would use it.  And talking with her, you would think she probably had at least a postgraduate degree, although she quit school in the eighth grade -- explaining that they were teaching things like Bull Run.  What did she care about the Battle of Bull Run or bulls running?  (laughs) She needed to get out and work.  He spoke with an accent his entire life, and used to proudly say that his son, Harvey, went off to Howard University -- (laughs) however, it was his grandson, Howie, and it was his son who went to Harvard University.  (laughs) My father-in-law started in Orthodox shul.  He was an observant Jew.  He observed, you know, kashrut and -- although I grew up in a kosher home, but he -- kashrut and the holidays and the whole thing.  And my 33:00mother-in-law thought it was a lot of hokey, and I think she had a few unlabeled cans in the back room for what was important to her.  So Lee and his three siblings grew up in this home that was Jewish, and it was kosher and they had -- everything was according to Hoyle.  But the kids, I think, followed the mother more.  When I met Lee and I met his dad, I fell in love with his dad immediately.  In fact, the first time I met -- he called me into the other room and he said, "Come on, sit down next to me," and forehead to forehead, he gave me a Jewish interview.  He'd say, "So what kind of a name is Flock?  And did you go to kheyder [traditional religious school]?"  And then he'd rephrase the question to make sure he got the correct answer.  And the kids were a wreck.  They kept saying, Pa, come on in the other room, it's time for this, pa!  He 34:00said, (puts one hand up) "Sha, still!"  (laughs) And I fell in love with him.  And when I accepted Lee's proposal, I thought I was gonna marry someone like his father.  He turned out like his mother.  (laughter) But we've survived for fifty years.  (laughter)

SR:  That's great.  Okay, well, I have no more questions, but I wondered if there was just anything else you'd like to add that would help fill out the picture of your identity.

RG:  Okay, well, I can tell you that as I was growing up, one of the things that was very important -- my mother felt very strongly that it was important, as I said, to identify oneself as a Jew and not to be ashamed of saying, "I'm Jewish and we don't do it that way" -- and would recount, you know, the stories that she had working during the Depression, when it was difficult for Jews to get jobs -- and yet, you know, she felt it was important for her to work 35:00wherever she worked where they would say -- she would say she is Jewish and she has to take off for, you know, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur and that sort of thing.  And she inculcated that kind of acceptance, I think, in her two children.  And my father, who was not observant, who had grown up in an Orthodox family, felt he saw a lot of hypocrisy, and he thought a lot of the ritual and a lot of the overt observances were really nothing that he wanted to continue -- although he did when he was married to my mother, 'cause she was the boss lady -- was still, in the Chri-- in the non-Jewish community, very careful to represent Judaism in its best light.  My folks were careful never to eat non-kosher food when they were in public; they would always eat, you know, fish 36:00or pasta or whatever.  And I remember, on a few occasions, my dad calling some people on their anti-Semitic attitudes, and subsequently being respected for that -- he was involved, I think, in Kiwanis or something, and one of the people was a representative from the college -- Bates College -- was there.  And, you know, some decisions were made based on some anti-Semitic attitudes.  And when called on it, I think it was a learning experience for the other person.  And, you know, quite proud of my dad for doing that.  And he had a way of telling 37:00the truth and it never hurt.  (laughs) He was really good at what he did.  So, that's it.

SR:  Yeah.  So it's interesting, because Lee had a mother who was not observant and a father who was, and you had a mother who was observant and a father who wasn't.  And how does that carry forth in your own family?

RG:  When we got married, it was important to me to have a Jewish home, and we had a kosher home.  I remember saying to Lee -- I did have an experience that was, for me, very telling.  When we first were engaged, my sister-in-law had a party in our honor.  Many of her friends were first generation Jews.  They had come from observant homes; they were now people who were fully Americanized.  They had come from poorer families; they were now -- the sec-- first generation 38:00were doing very well.  They were business people, and they were making a lot of money.  And they were not living a lot of -- there was not a lot of Judaism overtly in their house, but they felt very identified Jewishly -- in their heart, in their memories.  And that had a very big influence on me, because it made me realize that you can't transmit your feelings of Judaism -- or of anything, I imagine -- to another person.  You can create an environment for those feelings or emotions or attitudes to develop, but you can't do it for them.  And as a result, I made the rational decision that we would both have a -- we would have a Jewish home, we would observe many rituals that were 39:00important to me, that we would join a synagogue and my kids would go to a Jewish camp, and that we would provide them the opportunities to develop their own sense of Judaism.  'Cause I couldn't tell -- I can't tell them how I feel inside and make it important to them.  That was important, because Lee wouldn't necessarily -- Lee had never been to camp, so that wasn't important to him.  In fact, at first, he thought, What are you gonna send your kids to camp for?  He wouldn't have had a kosher home; he likes to eat things that are not only not kosher, but -- you know, (laughs) that wasn't important to him.  But he was very willing to go along with doing these kinds of things.  We almost had a crisis one time when I sent him to the kosher butcher to pick up an order for me.  And he said to the butcher, looking in the case, "How much is that?  What 40:00is that?"  And the butcher said, "Meat."  And (laughs) that was a little unsettling to Lee, 'cause he -- first of all, he's a lawyer; he likes things accurate.  And secondly, he's a shopper, and he likes to know, What is it?  You know, (laughs) what size, what shape, (UNCLEAR)?  And then when he said, "How much is it," "Oh, it's around five dollars a pound."  (laughs) That was a very -- another unsettling experience.  (laughs) What do you mean, "around five dollars"?  Is it $5.23, $5.94?  (laughs) I never sent him again.  (laughs) And I took care of all the household financial bills at that point.  (laughs) But that was an important experience -- an important "ah-ha moment" for me -- when I observed these people talking so fondly of their growing up years, and yet we saw their children as not experiencing an identification in anywhere near the same way.

SR:  Interesting.  Okay, well, that's it.

RG:  I enjoyed --

SR:  Thank you very much.

RG:  You're very welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]