ARTHUR KLEIN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is October 12th, 2011. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Arthur Klein and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Arthur Klein, do I have your permission to record this interview?

ARTHUR KLEIN: Yes, you do.

CW: Thanks. So, I thought we could start with your family background.

AK: Okay.

CW: Can you tell me what you know about where your family came from, how they came to America?

AK: Well, at the time, I had two grandfathers and two grandmothers, and they told me that they came from Russia, a place called -- I'm not sure of the exact 1:00name, but they always used to say Ratne Gubernia. Now, I don't know what that means, but that's what they told me they were from. And --

CW: Did they ever talk about Russia?

AK: Not really. I thought at one time they were just joking with me when they told me that one of my grandfathers was called "Elye di shtarker," which means -- his English name was Elias, the strong one. He was very tall and they told me he was a Cossack, but I don't believe that. But that's what they told me. And his wife was Anna. Well, they had about one, two, three, four, about six children. They had others, but in those days, children died off very fast. They 2:00weren't able to take care of them that well. So, between all of them, they were left with, I think, six. Or I think there were five sons and one daughter.

CW: And was it a frum [pious] family?

AK: My grandpa, this grandpa, Elye, wore a yarmulke all the time. But I never saw him go to shul. My other grandfather, he didn't go to shul at all. He wasn't frum, but they spoke Yiddish all the time. And my grandmas did the typical cooking that a Jewish housewife would do in those days. They made kugels and tsimes [sweet dish with vegetables and/or meat] and they went shopping and they 3:00bought the chickens and they plucked the chickens and we ate the eggs from the chicken, what -- you don't see anymore. And they did all the cooking that a normal, in those days, housewife would do.

CW: And did you have any favorite foods that they would make?

AK: Yeah. Potato pancakes, yeah. I used to love my potato pancakes. In those days -- and I was very young. I weighed like 175 pounds because my grandma always used to -- whenever I was near her, she used to feed me until I thought I was going to explode after a while. But that's how they were. And believe it or not, in those days, my two grandpas owned apartment houses. And that was really 4:00-- I don't know how they did it. One grandpa, Elye, Elias, he had a route that -- he washed windows. And he had this particular neighborhood where they were all stores and he used to wash all their windows and charge maybe a quarter or a half a dollar for doing it. But in those days, that kind of money, he was a pretty rich man and he was able to buy an apartment house, a beautiful apartment house with six apartments, all brick, and it was absolutely beautiful. I don't know how we did it. And my other grandfather, he used to -- I don't know if you understand. He used to go through neighborhoods, through the backyards, and yell 5:00out, "I cash old clothes." Now, what that meant is that he would yell out -- and these neighborhoods were apartment homes. And people would stick their heads out of the windows --- (pauses) excuse me, I have something in my --

CW: That's okay.

AK: People would stick their heads out of the windows if they had clothes to sell. And they would come down and sell him a suit or pants or shoes, and he would give them maybe a quarter or a half a dollar or a dollar if it was a suit. Sometimes, their husbands would die and they would sell all their clothing. And my grandfather would take the clothing and resell it and sell it for maybe fifty cents more or a dollar more. But in those days, that was a lot of money.

CW: Did he have a storefront or a stand that he would sell them?

AK: No, he'd just walk with everything draped around him -- well, on his shoulders, I still remember it, carrying whatever he had to sell. And one day, I remember this to this day, 'cause I was in the apartment when he was going through the clothes that he had bought, he found a five-dollar bill inside one of the suits that he had bought for maybe fifty cents or a dollar and he was rich. He was able to live for almost a month on that. And that's how they made their livings and that's how they, I guess, paid for the owner of those homes. And he had three tenants living there and they paid maybe twenty-five dollars a month rent. And my other grandfather, he had like six or seven tenants living in his place and they both did very well, I would imagine, with it in those days.

CW: Do you remember other people, peddlers going door to door selling things?

AK: Oh God, right around the corner from me, there was a place called Prospect Place. And the whole street was loaded with pushcarts. Do you know what a pushcart is?

CW: Well, why don't you describe it?

AK: Well, they were wooden carts on big wheels with -- you can push around. And everything on the cart that you could possibly think of was for sale. They had clothing, they had pots and pans, they had books. They had any type of food that you could think of. And there was a big chicken market on the street, as well, and we used to go in there and get kosher chickens, where they used to -- we 8:00used to pick out our own live chicken and right then and there, they would cut their necks and let the blood drip into a can to make it kosher. And then, they would flick it for you. They would take the feathers off if you gave them an extra nickel, 'cause you don't want to do that at home, although my grandmas used to do that at home. And that's how we would get our food. They had gallons of pickles and peppers and sauerkrauts and you would go in -- in those days, they only had bottles, glass bottles, and they would sell it by the jar. And they would go into the barrels and pick the pickles out and put it in the jar and that's how you would pay for it. And it was wonderful. I still remember 9:00every minute of those days when we used to go shopping and see everything that you could possibly want on wagons or in stores. Clothing, everything. It was just there. And it wasn't -- well, in those days, I guess it was expensive. Of course, a dollar, my God, that was, like, I would guess, twenty-five dollars is today.

CW: Are there any foods that you remember from that time that you don't really see anymore today?

AK: Well, let's see. Well, the kugels that my grandmas used to make were delicious, which I don't see today except if I go to a meal for the holidays and there's still a grandma around. She would cook those kind of meals, which bring back a lot of pleasant memories. But everything was handmade. They didn't get it 10:00in bottles or cans. The chicken soup was delicious, the kneydls [dumplings] were delicious. Even the shmalts [rendered fat] herrings, the pickled herrings, the whitefish. I mean, you don't see that around anymore. And that's what we used to have, and we lived very nicely in a very poor neighborhood. But nobody knew they were poor because we all lived and we hung out with one another and it was like a real ghetto neighborhood. We really lived for each other. It was great.

CW: Can you describe, if you close your eyes and sort of remember what it looked like, can you describe the neighborhood?

AK: Well, there was the gutter. That's a paved road. And on one side was the 11:00smaller homes, a little further down were the larger homes. Across the street, there was a little candy store, a little kosher store where a friend of mine's father used to kosher all the chickens and he used to buy the meats and kosher the meats and salt them and leave them -- stay for a while. And there was a drugstore on the corner, and nobody had a telephone. So, if you wanted to make two or three cents, you used to hang out by the drugstore. And if anybody called you at the drugstore's telephone and you were there -- and let's say this other 12:00person on -- I don't know if you understand me. Somebody would call the drugstore's telephone for them to go get a person that lived in the neighborhood to come to the telephone at the drugstore to answer it so they can talk with each other because nobody else had telephones. And if you, like what I did, hung around the drugstore and there was a telephone call, you would go and run to get that person and bring them back to the drugstore to answer the telephone and that person would give you maybe two or three cents or, if you were lucky, a nickel for coming to them and telling them. And that's how we made a couple of pennies.

CW: And what was your address? The street you're describing, which street was it?

AK: It was on Park Place, 1837 Park Place, which isn't -- it's there but it's 13:00not there anymore.

CW: And can you describe Pitkin Avenue?

AK: Pitkin?

CW: Pitkin Avenue, yeah.

AK: There was a Pitkin Avenue and there was a Prospect Place.

CW: Well, the big avenue in Brownsville --

AK: That was --

CW: -- is Pitkin, right?

AK: -- Pitkin Avenue, yes.

CW: So, what was that like?

AK: Oh, that was full of stores. There were all kinds of stores there. There was a big clothing store. There was a movie house that they had just built called the Loew's Pitkin. And in those days, they only had one movie. Or actually, they had a double movie at times and you could spend the whole day just going through one or two movies and then they had Fox Movietone News. And then, they had a 14:00Mickey Mouse kind of a movie and then they had all kinds of different shows. I forget which ones they had now. There was the Three Stooges they had, and a few others which I forget now. But that was a big movie house. And it was built like a museum and it was breathtaking when I first walked into it. And the first movie I saw there was -- I think it was "Alice in Wonderland" in color. That was the first color movie I saw, and it was just fascinating.

CW: Did they ever show Jewish movies there?

AK: Well, there were two Jewish theaters in the neighborhood. I don't remember the streets they were on, but I used to sneak into them all the time. And I was 15:00maybe, oh, fourteen or fifteen at the time. And they had this little stage and lots of people went to them because it was all a Jewish neighborhood. And there were two of them. And I can remember one of the -- it wasn't movies. It was real shows. They had real people performing. And I remember one was called "Di kleyne bandit [The little thief]." And I sneaked into that one and I don't remember the names of the people that were performing. But it was a great neighbor-- we had a great life. We used to play baseball in the streets and football and stoopball. We used to play it off the stoops and all kinds of -- well, we used to make our 16:00own toys. I remember one day, I made a pushmobile. In those days, skates came apart. So, we used to take the skates apart and one part had two wheels and the other part had two wheels. And we used to buy a two-by-four board, which was very inexpensive, and nailed our skates onto the board. And then, we used to get a big box. In those days, there weren't any cardboard boxes. They were all made of wood. So, we used to get a wooden box where eggs came in all the time. That was a big box. And we used to nail it onto the board, and we had a little -- like their skateboards today, well, this was our form of a skateboard. We used to hold onto the box, which was attached to the board, and the skates were attached under the board and we used to push off on it and have a great time. 17:00And that's how we made our own toys. And it was just wonderful.

CW: And can you tell me about some of the people that you hung out with? I know that nicknames were very important back then.

AK: Oh, yeah. Oh, we had, let me see, we had one called the Shadow, 'cause he always used to -- wherever you looked, he was behind us, shadowing us. We had one called the Mensch because he always dressed in all fancy clothing. So, we used to call him the Mensch. I was called Yum, Y-u-m, because I was kind of heavy in those days. So, they called me Jumbo after the little elephant that they -- Jumbo the elephant, or Dumbo the elephant. And after a while, it went 18:00back to Yum because I used to hang out with a girl who was a little tongue-tied and she could not say Jumbo, so she said Yum. She pronounced her Ys instead of her Js and that's -- and to this day, they call me that. They still call me Yum. They don't know me by any other name. And there were others that I just seem to forget. It's been a while.

CW: Yeah, and what would you guys do?

AK: Oh, we played football on the streets. We played baseball on the streets. We played stoopball off the stoops. We used to, in the summer, go to Coney Island and get on an El train, which was an elevated train. They don't have that anymore, I don't think. And we used to ride to Coney Island and hang out on the beaches. Used to go to dances, there were lots of da-- we used to do Lindys and 19:00lots of nice dancing. Hung out with women, tried to pick up women. It was just a great neighborhood. We went shopping, we went on dates. And after dates, we used to meet at this -- I can't remember the name of the --

CW: Hoffman's?

AK: Hoffman's, that was it. Used to hang out in Hoffman's and meet there and tell us about our dates. And right nearby, there was a candy store. We used to go in and get sodas, lime rickeys -- we used to drink. And I forget the name of the soda, that -- they had chocolate and milk. I forget the name of it. You used to mix them together. It's been a long time; I forget a lot of what we used to do. And of course, every Friday, we used to go to shul. We hung out in the shuls 20:00because in those days, the shuls used to give you a great meal after we went through the services. So, I think we actually went for the meals, really. (laughs) But we used to go and I had a great bar mitzvah. My grandmas got these wooden horses and they put old doors on them and made tables out of it. This was out in the open, in front of the house that we were born in. And they used to put a tablecloth over the wooden tables and lay all kinds of food on it and this was our bar mitzvah. They cooked everything themselves and everybody in the 21:00neighborhood brought something, laid it out on these tables. And they all came, gave us pens and pencils for our bar mitzvah. And that's how we had our bar mitzvahs. We went to shul and in the shul, I said the haftorah. And in those days, I don't -- well, they don't even call them shuls anymore. They call them temples. But in those days, the women had to sit upstairs behind a curtain and the men were all downstairs. We were separated from -- the men and the women. No such thing like that today. And when we danced, we didn't dance with the women. We danced with the men. And if we did dance with the women, we held a handkerchief in between us so we don't touch them. And that was weird but that was a very frum temple and that's what we did.

CW: And you had a religious education as well, right?

AK: Yes, I did. I had a little old rabbi and I think -- I'm not sure but I think we gave him a quarter a week to teach us -- he's the one who taught me my haftorah and everything. And to this day, I remember him because he was old and he had a long, grey beard. And all day long, he had a little machine beside him that he used to make cigarettes on. He would put the paper in and push some tobacco in. He would push something and a cigarette would come out. And all day long, he would try to teach us, make cigarettes, and smoke. And he smoked so much that I remembered him, his beard was grey, but up until two or three inches 23:00below his beard, it was all yellow from the nicotine. Course, there was no such thing as filters in those days; it was strictly tobacco. And his little white-grey beard was full of yellow nicotine all the time. And when you didn't pay attention, he walked around with a ruler and hit you on the hands with the ruler. And that's what I remember of my little old rabbi that taught us Yiddish.

CW: And all of the lessons were taught in Yiddish.

AK: Yes. Well, he spoke English as well, but most of it was in Yiddish.

CW: Yeah.

AK: And I learned a lot of Yiddish, but after not doing it for a while, I lost a lot of it. But slowly, now, as I'm working with the Yiddish Book Center, I'm slowly getting back to it.

CW: And at home, what languages were spoken?

AK: Well, my mom and dad spoke English all the time. But when I went to my 24:00grandmas and grandpas, they used to speak Yiddish and English. And when they didn't want me to know anything, they spoke mostly Yiddish. And one of my grandpas always used to call me his tayerke [little dear one]. Whenever he saw me, he used to hug me and kiss me and he never shaved. So, he used to hug me against his beard and to this day, I remember how much it hurt, (laughs) but I let him do it 'cause I loved him. (laughs)

CW: And you mentioned that for one of your grandfathers, you used to go out and buy the "Forverts"?

AK: I used to buy it for him. In those days, I think it was two or three cents, I'm not sure. He used to say, "Arthur, get me the" -- he used to call it the "Fuverts" and I used to get it for him. Also, we didn't have refrigerators and 25:00we just had what they called iceboxes. It was a big box and we used to put ice in it to keep everything cold. And in the summer, I remember getting ice for my grandmas and grandpas. They used to give me a rope and I used to go to -- every area had what they called a dry dock where they used to keep big blocks of ice. And I remember going to the dry dock and for a quarter or fifty cents, they would chop some ice for you and you would tie it with this string and pull it through the streets to your house. And if it was hot in the summer, by the time you brought this fifty cents piece of ice home, it was no longer a fifty-cent piece of ice because it had melted quite a bit. But whatever it was, we took it, 26:00brought it upstairs, and put it in the icebox to keep the food cool for about a week or two. And the ice always used to drip through the bottom of the icebox where we had a little pan, which filled up with water, which we got rid of every now and then. And that's how we cooled off our food.

CW: So, you did Shabbos at shul.

AK: Yes.

CW: Do you remember how your family celebrated the other holidays? Did you have a favorite holiday?

AK: Well, the favorite was when we had the matzah. And my grandma used to make a big meal. She used to have all nice food afterwards. And of course, when we had Rosh Hashanah -- and believe it or not, I fasted and all my friends did, and 27:00then afterwards, we had chopped herring and chopped liver and chopped chicken and it was just great. It was great food. Everything was homemade. Couldn't go wrong. And my grandma always used to cook with chicken fat. Chicken fat and gribenes [fried goose/chicken skin]. You know what that is? The gribenes was the rendering of the chicken, with the chicken fat. There were little pieces of -- I guess it was fat. We used to call it gribenes and we used to put it on matzah and smear it like we would smear butter on it and it was absolutely delicious. Actually, until I was about seventeen or eighteen, I thought that heartburn was a natural thing to have, because after eating all that gribenes and chicken fat, 28:00it left me with that. But I thought it was just natural. (laughs) And that was how it was where I was born, where I lived in, where I was brought up.

CW: And just, we've been talking about sort of the neighborhood but I'm wondering, for you, was -- I mean, was there -- what about your own Jewish identity? Were you really aware that that this was a Jewish community within a larger city? What was important to you about being Jewish growing up?

AK: Well, I don't know. I wasn't aware that I was Jewish. It just was a natural thing. When you live in the neighborhood where everybody does certain things, 29:00you just go along and do it. You're not aware that you're this or you're that. You're just part of the neighborhood. And part of the neighborhood did this. On Shabbos, in most homes, there was a -- not a landlord but a person that took care of the house that was not Jewish. And you would sometimes give him a quarter for him to come into your house, I know my grandmas and grandpas did it, so they could turn off the lights or put on the lights or do something that you didn't want to do for Shabbos, although they -- I don't think they were that religious. But this is what they did. It was part of their bringing up. So, we 30:00all did certain things, not knowing that we were Jewish or not Jewish. This is how it was done. This is what we did. I mean, I put tfillin on until I was seventeen, after my bar mitzvah. And then, I saw my father and mother never doing it, so I figured, Why am I doing it? I used to get up very early in the morning and put the tfillin on and daven, because this is what we did. But after a while, you look around, just like after a while, people started speaking mostly English and not Yiddish. They wanted to be part of the system. I'm saying to myself, Well, why am I doing it when nobody else is doing it? So, you would just stop. But I did that for quite a while.

CW: Were there other ethnic groups around in the neighborhood? Did you have contact with them?

AK: Well, we really didn't have -- yes, there was a lot of Polish people. Like I said, they were taking care of the apartments and we were friendly with them. Not too much. But, yes. And further on, there was a black neighborhood that we hung out with. But in our particular neighborhood, it was strictly -- mostly Yiddish neighborhood with -- oh, the janitors, that's what they were. They were janitors and they used to take care of the apartments for us. And in those days, you could rent an apartment for twenty-five dollars a month. And after a year, they would give you a free paint job in order to keep you interested in keeping 32:00the apartments. So, if you didn't feel like you wanted to live there, you just easily moved out, went to another apartment for twenty-five dollars with a new paint job. And this is how we lived. I think in my youth, we must have had three or four different apartments because we'd get tired of one, we move to another and it was very easy, very cheap. But in those days, twenty-five dollars was a lot of money. My first job, I made eighteen dollars a week and I was rich.

CW: So, now when we look back at Brownsville -- I mean, there's been this book written about it, "Murder, Inc." --

AK: Yeah.

CW: -- and we sort of think of this as being a place where there were gangs and violence. Was there any truth to that?

AK: There's a lot of truth to it. I knew a lot of people that were Murder, Inc., and when they threw somebody off the hotel -- I think it was Bugsy something or -- wasn't Bugsy Siegel. He was in Coney Island. He was a big crook and the police had put him away in a hotel in Coney Island to protect him and the next day, they found he was thrown out of his window in Coney Island. I think it was the Half Moon Hotel in Coney Island. And I knew or heard of a lot of the Murder, Incorporated group, the Jewish mafia, and they hung out with the rest of the 34:00boys. We hung out in a poolroom. This was where we just met each other. We met in the poolrooms. We played in the poolrooms. In fact, there's a funny story. One day, somebody came into the poolroom and he asked us if anybody wants to have a nose job. And there were a lot of creeps hanging around the poolroom. And he said, "I'm practicing to be a" -- what do you call them when they specialized in changing your --

CW: Plastic surgeon?

AK: Plastic -- he was specializing in plastic surgery and he said, "Anybody that wants to have a new nose job for twenty-five dollars, just come on over to the 35:00hospital and I'll give you a new nose job." So, about five of them went because they're a bunch of crazy guys hanging around. And a few months later, they came back to the pool parlor, hanging around again, and the big guys had a little nose. The short guys had a little nose. Well, almost all the guys had the same nose. He was only trained in making one kind of a nose and all of those five guys that went all had the same nose. It was really funny. But this is the kind of people we hung around with. They were a lot of fun. It was just a lot of fun.

CW: Are there any characters, specific people that you remember, being around them?

AK: Yeah, I used to know one guy, he was a friend of mine, and the way we -- we 36:00used to make money all different kinds of crazy ways. I told you we went on telephone calls, we did things for other people, and a good way of making money was by playing pool. And this friend of mine was a very good pool player and they knew him in the neighborhood now, so nobody would want to play with him. So, what we did, we went partners. I had a few dollars and he had a few dollars and we went to poolrooms outside of the neighborhood. And he put on a yarmulke and he had a Yiddish paper, he had the "Forverts," and he sat there, watched them playing pool and reading the paper and watching them, wearing his yarmulke. 37:00And he said, "Pardon me, but can I play with you?" And they looked at him and they said, Well, this guy, I'm gonna take his money. And they said, Sure, and we'll play for so much a ball. And he did, and we won a lot of money that way. And we used to go partners and -- so, we knew of the wrong things to do and we knew of the right things to do, and we knew of the wrong people. But we mostly hung out with the right people, thank God for that. We never wanted to -- I was offered opportunities when I owned my own stores to just -- they would build me a store if they could only use my telephones. But I wouldn't do it because I was afraid. But they were great people to work with. They were nice, they were 38:00congenial, they were polite. They were very nice to get along with.

CW: Do you remember -- I mean, you say you had some contact with them. Do you have any idea how the Jewish mafia worked back then?

AK: Not really. Not being in it, I never knew how they worked.

CW: Yeah.

AK: But --

CW: But they were around.

AK: -- they were around and we were very proud of them, really. We really were. Not that that we tried to be like them, but we were proud that they were around. It gave us an identity, I guess. I don't know. It made us feel strong.

CW: So, there's so much in Brownsville, but I'm wondering what the experience for you was like when you left that sort of Jewish ghetto and got into the wider 39:00world where maybe Jews weren't in the majority. Was that a shock to you? Was it a sort of change of perspective?

AK: It was, really. When I was in the Navy, I went in when I was nineteen, and I really never experienced any kind of, "Well, you're Jewish" or -- never left out of anything. I was always in things and doing things with all my friends. But once I was in the Navy, in those days -- I mean, if you were black and you were in the Navy, you could only be a servant. You could only serve the captains and you could only serve the officers. You were in the kitchen serving them. That 40:00was the Navy. The Army was different.

CW: And this is in the '40s, right?

AK: Yes.

CW: Forty-three or so?

AK: Yeah.

CW: Yeah.

AK: And of course, if you were Jewish -- I was the only Jewish person aboard ship and I got along very well with most of the people. But some of the people looked at me and I remember one person coming towards me and looking at my head. And I'm saying, "What are you looking at?" We gave him a nickname. He was called the Moose 'cause he looked like a moose. And he was from the Ozarks or somewhere along there. And he looked at me and I say, "Well, what are you looking at, Moose?" And he said, "Well, I'm looking for your horns." He never saw a Jew 41:00before. He thought Jews had horns. And I really got very angry. And aboard ship, in order to close the doors, which were all iron, they had what you call stanchions. You would put them into a hook and you would push down and close the doors. And there were these stanchions, these metal stanchions that were on every door. And I took one off and I was gonna really hit him with it. But he realized that I was really angry, and he just backed away. But right after that, he became my best friend. But they didn't know what a Jew was. And most of the time, I didn't hang out with most of them. But I had a nice life in the Navy. I was a cook and baker and everybody wanted to be my friend because I had the keys 42:00to all the food lockers. And it was a nice -- I was there three-and-a-half years. It was a nice three-and-a-half years.

CW: And where were you stationed?

AK: We were all over.

CW: All over?

AK: We were in the Atlantic, we were in the Pacific. We hit all the Pacific islands. And at the end, we were right next to the Missouri when they were signing the declaration and they were signing the peace treaty. And I saw all the officers go aboard the Missouri, which was a big battle wagon at the time. It was the biggest one we had. And we were right in Tokyo Bay, seeing that. So, I was right next to -- my ship was anchored right next to the Missouri. And it was a good thing that we had dropped the bomb, really, because if we had tried to go into Tokyo, there would have been hundreds and thousands of Americans that 43:00would have died, 'cause they had guns and cannons and everything ready for us, and we would have eventually conquered but it would have been a disaster going in. So, it was just as well that we did drop the bomb, unfortunately for them.

CW: So, I'm wondering, going back to before the Navy, was there -- Brownsville was known as being a pretty radical left-wing neighborhood. Was politics important at all in your family, your growing up?

AK: Not at all. Nobody was really interested in it. I mean, Roosevelt, that was the man. And there was a picture of him in every one of my grandma's places. And 44:00this was the man. That's all we knew, was Roosevelt. I mean, how many -- what was he in for, twelve years or something like that?

CW: Don't remember exactly but yeah, yeah. So, for you, talking about the Navy and growing up, were there any experiences that were formative for you in terms of your own Jewish identity and as you're leaving home and creating your own sort of identity in the world?

AK: Not really. Not really. Everything just seemed to have come natural. I mean, I got out of the Navy. I tried to get into college, but it was absolutely filled 45:00up with the GI Bill. Even with the GI Bill, I couldn't get in because every college I wanted to get to was filled with GIs. So, I went to hairdressing school, became a hairdresser, and I've been that ever since. I worked as a hairdresser for almost sixty-three or -four years, having a good time at it and never really thought of anything else. I met my wife through being a hairdresser. She was one of my clients. And up until three years ago, and I'm eighty-seven now, I worked as a hairdresser. I worked in Florida for seventeen years as a hairdresser and then came here. So, no, it's been good for me that 46:00way and that's how it's been for me.

CW: Were there things that you -- or values that you felt your parents and grandparents were trying to pass on to you when you look back at that time?

AK: Always -- well, and my children have this, as well. Always to, if somebody pays you for something, give them the best you can give them. Like, if you're at a job, doing the best you can do at that job. Also, if you're paying for something, trying to pay for the best of what you're paying for -- and never hold back. Always give them the best you've got, which I have always done. And I 47:00think my children are the same way. I mean, they're good. They've got great jobs, they're good workers. They'll give you 110 percent of whatever you give them. So, that's what I've gotten back from my parents because they've done the same thing. They were poor and we got through the Depression in -- the 1930s Depression.

CW: What do you remember from that?

AK: I remember one thing, that we were waiting on line at the bank. In those days, the banks didn't have insurance. So, if you had a hundred dollars in the bank, it was not insured. Today it's insured for, what, hundred thousand dollars 48:00or something like that? Well, in those days, they didn't have insurance and I remember waiting and I was a little kid at that time, maybe as old as maybe that picture I showed you. And I was standing on line with my mother, waiting on a line that was like three blocks long to get into the bank to draw out our money because everybody was doing the same thing. And all of a sudden, the bank doors closed. There was no money left. And eventually, we would get ten cents back on our dollar --- eventually -- which I don't think we ever got. And that's what I remember of the Depression. It was very bad. My mom and dad and myself had to go 49:00back and live with my grandma and grandpa, which we did. And it was bad. And that's what I remember of it, really. Just remember standing on that line, waiting for the bank's -- but their doors closed before we got there. And I remember people selling apples in the streets. And I remember people telling me about other people jumping off the roofs or their windows because -- I remember men with big hats, these top hats that you could pay, in those days, twenty-five, thirty dollars for, selling apples on the street because they didn't have a dime. So, that's what I remember of the Depression. At that age, it was very hard. And when something's happening now, I get a little upset 50:00because already, all the savings that I have saved already, it's a third less than what I have saved for because of what's going on, what they've taken away. 'Cause it seems like right now, the seniors are getting more taken away from them than anyone else because our social security, which we used to sometimes get one or two percent a year more on has been stopped for the past four or five years. Our savings, which we have saved, have gone maybe a third or more less than what we have now. So, things are bad now. Not as bad as they were, but I hope they don't get any worse.

CW: (laughs) Yeah. So, growing up in Brownsville, it was such an immersive 51:00experience in a way, it sounds like, of this -- everything around you was Jewish. When you were creating your own family, what decisions did you make for the type of environment you were making for your own kids?

AK: Well, we moved from Brooklyn to the Island. We bought a piece of property there, after I'd gotten out of the Navy. Well, this was a few years afterwards, 'cause I didn't marry until I was twenty-five years old. And so, we bought this piece of property. We had a beautiful split-level built there and it was only twenty-one thousand dollars. And I learned to drive. And let's see, what else? 52:00And then, my first child was born when I was working -- well, first, I went to Long Island. I opened a store there with a partner, a beauty salon, and we lived in an apartment. And from the apartment, we built our own home, like I said, for twenty-one thousand dollars. And I got a GI Bill of Rights which was three percent, which was nothing in those days. I bought a car. I think the car was like twelve hundred dollars or fifteen hundred dollars. Learned to drive. And 53:00that's how we lived in those days. It was great.

CW: But by then, were you religious at all by that point, or had you sort of left that behind?

AK: Well, we joined a Jewish center. It was a Reform Jewish center at the time. I wasn't too into it, but my wife was. And we had the kids, as they got older, go to school. And school was very expensive, the Yiddish school. And I sort of got turned off from the Yiddish schools. But they went to school, they learned the haftorah, they got bar mitzvahed.

CW: So, they went to Yiddish school?

AK: Yeah. My oldest son got bar mitzvahed. My youngest son didn't -- he had friends that went to another school, a Yiddish school, that was a very expensive school and we could not afford it. So, he told us he didn't want to have a bar mitzvah. So, we didn't give him one. And we made a big party because even in those days, bar mitzvahs were like four or five thousand dollars. Now they're like twenty thousand dollars. (laughs) But as he got older, he married and he 55:00married a person who was very into being Jewish and they live in California now. And just a few years ago, he got bar mitzvahed. And he's very happy about it. And I was, too. He made a nice bar mitzvah for himself. So yeah, they were both bar mitzvahed, yeah. And like I said, they live in California now and we're very, very close and friendly with them. But otherwise, I was turned off because I had some bad experiences with the religion. And I don't know if I should even mention it here. Do you want to hear it?

CW: Yeah.

AK: Well, my father-in-law belonged to a very expensive Jewish center in Brooklyn and I used to go with him for the Jewish holidays. And I used to belong to that temple, as well.

CW: Was it Orthodox?

AK: It was Orthodox, yes. And during the services, they used to stop and they used to call out names of what each one wants to give to the temple. I don't know if you've ever experienced this.

CW: I've heard about it, yeah.

AK: And like, he would call out, "Mr. Gottlieb," and Gottlieb would stand up and say, "I give five thousand dollars." "And Mr. Schwartz?" He would stand up and 57:00say, "I give a thousand dollars." And this would go on. And then, they would call Mr. Klein, which was me, and I would say, "I give khay [Hebrew letters representing the lucky number eighteen]." But I was kind of embarrassed. And I said, What do I need this for? And I left. And that was just one of the experiences. There were a few others, but that was the most important one. So, I figured, What do I -- but every now and then, I do go -- in fact, I just went recently to the one here in town for the holidays because I sort of miss it and I like to daven a little bit. But I'm not that close with it anymore. And that's 58:00how it was.

CW: Yeah. Was there a time in your life at any point that you felt particularly aware of being Jewish?

AK: When I was in the Navy, (laughs) I certainly was very much aware of it. But I really was so much aware that I had to watch myself with what I did and the way I said it. I guess I must have been uptight because I didn't want to be different than the others, which I didn't think I was. But then again, I made sure that I said the right things and did the right things. I was just more 59:00aware of my Jewishness.

CW: You joined the Navy in about '43, right? Or in the mid-'40s?

AK: In about '42, '43, in that area, yeah.

CW: So, were you aware of what was going on in Europe before that, in the '30s? I mean, was it something that people talked about?

AK: No, not at all. In fact, we were playing in the streets that Sunday and I remember to this day we were sitting on something, resting, and there was this candy store right across the street from us. And they always used to play a little radio in there. And all of a sudden, we heard coming over that Pearl 60:00Harbor was bombed. And I look at my friend and he looks at me and we say, Where's Pearl Harbor? Why are they bombing Pearl Harbor? Nobody knew anything about what was going on. And we didn't even know about the Jews being put into concentration camps or anything like that at that time. And this was, when was it, 1941? Yeah.

CW: But then, you joined the service and the --

AK: Then, yeah, well, I was conscripted --

CW: Conscripted.

AK: -- into it. (laughs) And of course, when we were overseas, I saw a lot of it.

CW: What did you see?

AK: Well, when we were in Italy, I saw a lot of bombed-out places. I saw a lot 61:00of German prisoners there. In Japan, we went to most of the islands. I saw a lot of dead Japanese. We all took pictures of them. A lot of caves. Went into a lot of caves where the Japanese used to be and hung out and used to -- I guess that that's where they lived. And then, of course, I went into Japan. I went to a place called Wakayama, Japan where the whole city -- not that it was hit by an 62:00atom bomb, but it was burned out and all you saw left were the smokestacks in the air, 'cause they were made of brick. Everything else was made of bamboo. And they were bombed with firebombs and they burned, completely leveled the whole -- and that's what I saw there. So, I saw a lot of those places, yeah. And like I said, going through Tokyo Bay, that was interesting, where, at that time, wherever there was a gun emplacement, the Japanese had to put -- or we put a flag on that particular emplacement, showing the troops that there were gun emplacements there. And all along, going through Tokyo Bay, it's a big bay and 63:00there's shore -- there, on the side, is the shores. And they were loaded with guns and cannons. And like I said, trying to go through that bay, they would have killed off thousands of Americans. Would have been almost impossible. So, thank God for that.

CW: Do you remember after you got out, any refugees? Did you have any contact with the refugees, Jewish refugees from --

AK: Well, my wife's grandma had a cousin come over who was in a refugee camp. He came over here to America. His name was Avrom and he was -- I don't know what 64:00concentration camp he was in, but he was the only one left and he came over here to live with my grandma for a while and she introduced him to a few people. He remarried and he became -- well, he was a butcher there, became a butcher here. And I lost track of him. I have a friend who was in the Army and he went into the concentration camps after the war. And he was shocked by it. He never forgot it, to this day. And that was about all I knew. Like I said, I saw a lot of Germans, but they were prisoners of war. And they were doing a lot of manual work. And they were -- I think it was in Naples. Wasn't Naples, Florida, where 65:00I'm from. It was in Naples, Italy and that was completely bombed out. I was in Corsica, where that was completely bombed out. So, I was to quite a few of those places.

CW: Yeah. So, I want to change the subject just a little bit. How did you end up connecting with the Yiddish Book Center?

AK: I just came here one day and I said, I'm home. I really loved it. I love the atmosphere, I love the Yiddish. I just felt normal again. Like, I was uptight all my life in the Navy and places like that. But here, I feel like I'm at home. 66:00So, that's why I'm here. People come in here from all over the world and they speak Yiddish and I understand them. So, it's great. I really enjoy it.

CW: Are there any people that you've met that you really remember that have come in that you just -- that stand out in your memory at all?

AK: It's hard to say. I just sit at the desk and ask them where they're from and they tell me and we just start to talk. And no one is outstanding, really. I can't remember anybody being outstanding. But everybody is like the sa-- like we're all one. Really, they speak to me, I speak to them, I feel like they're my 67:00friend and I just feel -- I can't explain the feeling, but I feel like I don't have to hide. And that's why I like it here.

CW: I know that you are in a chorus now, Young@Heart.

AK: Well, I just took a leave of absence.

CW: But you've been in it for a while.

AK: For about three years, yeah.

CW: And I'm wondering if music was something that's always been important to you. Was there music around growing up?

AK: Well, my kids love music. And my mother used to play the piano. She could have been a very good pianist at one time, but they were too poor, they couldn't really do much. I used to sing with her. At one time, I had a very high soprano 68:00voice. It's changed quite a bit. (laughs) But she used to play the piano and I used to sing with it, all the old songs.

CW: What kind of songs?

AK: Oh, not Yiddish songs, but they were -- well, in those days, they were the new songs that came out. I don't remember what they were now. But she used to play them. I used to sing them. In fact, we used to go away to the mountains at times and there was always a piano around. She used to play the piano and I used to sing and all of a sudden, there was a group of people that came around, listening.

CW: Did you go up to the Catskills?

AK: Yeah.

CW: Yeah.

AK: Up in the Catskills. And so, I used to sing like that, but after my bar 69:00mitzvah, I don't think I've ever sang again. But eventually -- my children sing, and they love all the songs and I started listening to them again. And one day, I don't know if you know Fran, she used to be a volunteer here. You know her? She came in and she says she's going to the Young@Heart. I said, "Oh, I saw their DVD." I said, "Boy, I'll have to get into that. It looks so good." And she came in one day and she told me she's going to the Young@Heart. I said, "Oh, let me go with you." And we went and I tried out and they wanted me and I was in it for three years. But it started to get a little too hard for me. Being a 70:00rock-and-roller is not an easy life. The routine is you go on tour, you go all over the world. When you get there, you pack your things, you go to the hotel, you have lunch, you practice. If you have a matinee, you go to the matinee. Come home, you practice, you go through your thing in the evening, an evening performance, and that's how it goes. You practice, you eat. If you get a chance, you look around and you go, you take a trip somewhere. But it's strictly singing, sleeping, eating, practicing, singing, eating. I don't know how they do it. I don't really know how they do it. So, it's not an easy life. And after three years, it sort of got to me a little bit. So, I'm taking a little rest 71:00right now. And I have a feeling I'll probably go back.

CW: In terms of sort of the Brownsville that we were talking about, you mentioned earlier -- I'm wondering if you could repeat this story of what it was like when you recently went back?

AK: Oh, it was bad. We were performing in Brooklyn and I only live like a half hour away. So, I figured I'd go take a look. I hadn't been there in over sixty-two years. And I went down to Park Place, which is where my house was. And, oh, it was very depressing. I mean, the house, 1837, was it? Park Place. It 72:00was like a bomb hit it. The windows were boarded up. There were like four steps going up to this three-story brownstone; they were all broken. The whole area was depressing. All the stores that were across the street were broken and boarded up. Everything was gone. I was so depressed that I just turned the car around and went -- just left. In fact, I have to go back there because I miss going to Prospect Place where all the pushcarts were. I miss going to Pitkin Avenue where all the stores were. I miss going to the poolrooms that -- I don't know what's there now -- that I used to hang out in. There were -- a little movie called the Palace that I used to go to all the time for ten cents, where 73:00we saw movies for hours and hours. I miss going to the Loew's Pitkin. I missed everything because I was so depressed that I just had to leave. And I'm sorry for it now, but I will be going back there. And that's how it was there.

CW: Well, I have a couple more questions, but I'm wondering if there's any other stories from Brownsville or other parts of your life that you wanted to make sure to talk about today.

AK: Well, let me think. I think we covered most of it. Just at that time, the gas prices were like five gallons for a dollar. And each place was trying to 74:00compete with one another. So, with the five gallons, they would give you a set of dishes or a set of cups or glasses to draw you in. There was no such thing as plastic. Everything was in bottles. There were wagons going all through the streets, selling whatever you can possibly think of. In fact, there was trains going through the streets. They were called electric trains.

CW: Like the trolley cars?

AK: Like the trolley cars. There were tracks in the streets and wires overhead 75:00where the trolley cars used to hook up their own connections to it. And they used to drive around for five or ten cents and that's how we used to -- there were no buses. This is the buses of that time. And I can remember taking the trolley car to where I used to work. And one of my jobs as a hairdresser was right near the Brooklyn Bridge. And the trolley car used to go to the Brooklyn Bridge where I used to get off and walk to the store that I worked in. And then, the driver of the trolley car would get off and, himself, turn the trolley car around and then go back the same way he came on the trolley. And this is how we 76:00used to travel. Of course, there were taxis in those days, but that was -- if you were rich, you would take a taxi. And I remember my father owned a shoe store in those days, right in that area. And I used to, as a kid, go there and hang out with -- while my mother and father were selling shoes in the store. And in those days, they didn't ship shoes. My father used to go to New York and pick up a few boxes of shoes and bring it to the store to resell it. And I used to stay in there and watch -- and at one time, I used to wrap the shoes and the boxes for him. In those days, they didn't take the shoes and put 'em into bags 77:00or any things. They used to wrap each box that they sold. And I remember sometimes he used to sell five pair or three pair of shoes and that was a great day for us. We used to take a taxi home. And that was wonderful. I used to get so excited as a kid. And I remember going to Coney Island with them. As an only child, I was only a child, I used to -- I was kind of lonely because I didn't have a brother or sister to sit with when we went to -- Rockefeller Center, we went there, and that was fifty cents to get in there in those days. But anyway, we went to Coney Island and I used to go on -- and we used to go to Steeplechase. In those days, Steeplechase was like Disneyland is today, but not 78:00as nice. But they used to have all kinds of rides there. And for fifty cents, you would buy a ticket for about fifty rides and they would punch the ticket on each ride that you went on where you would go there. I remember that. And Steeplechase -- and Luna Park was also another big ride. And you used to go to Nathan's for hot dogs. And for, I think, five cents or ten cents, you would get a hot dog with all the root beer you could drink in a glass which was like a beer glass. And I used to always leave with the beer glass in my hand. After a while, I had a whole section of beer glasses in the house. And we had a lot of 79:00fun. There was what they called -- near Nathan's, there was a place called the shvits [steam bath]. Do you know what a shvits is? A shvits is a place that you go to where you want to sweat it out. It's like a -- what would you call it?

CW: Sauna.

AK: Well, it's like, you go in for a massage and it's like a sauna is today, with a -- well, those were shvitses in those days. And we used to go there and we used to stay there overnight. We used to go in, I forget what it cost now, and we used to take all our clothes off and we'd have a sheet that we put around us. And we used to go in for what they call the Swedish massage. We did this 80:00sometimes when we were a little inebriated from drinking too much. We used to go there to sweat it off. So, we used to go there and we went into the shvitses. Used to sweat it off. We used to go into this Swedish mass-- they would hit you with leaves and stuff and things and we would love it. And anyway, you'd go in to sleep the night away. And they would give us these little cots. I remember to this day, with a canvas bottom. It's an unfolding cot with canvas bottoms. And it would have fifty or sixty of them laid out in this big room and you would go lie down there and sleep and sometimes sleep the night away. But these cots were 81:00used so much and so often by very heavy men that they sagged in the middle. So, me, I like to sleep on the edge of a bed. So, when you try to go to the edge -- I remember this. So, when you try to go to the edge of the bed, you would roll back into the middle all the time. Well, anyway, I would go there with my friends. We would take a shvits and we would walk around nude with a robe on and there were women that would pound the leaves on you and give you the massages. And then, in the morning, you would get up and there was breakfast there. And we'd go into -- and I tell you, it was a wonderful time. And here we were, two young kids going there, sweating it off, having a good time, kibbitzing and 82:00laughing. And we would go in, have breakfast, and go home. And that's part of our lives. And we would have a wonderful time. As kids, we had a great time. We didn't realize how poor we were. We used to sleep on the fire escapes 'cause we had no air conditioning in the summer, or else we would sleep up on the roof. And we would bust open the fire hydrants in the summer and the water would spurt out. This is how we would cool off. It was a great life. (laughs) A happy life. We didn't know from anything.

CW: Well, I thought maybe we could just look at the things that you brought today and maybe you can hold them up and explain what they are.

AK: Well, okay. Well, this is me. Can you see it? (laughs)

CW: Yeah.

AK: I don't know how old I was here, maybe --

CW: Two or three?

AK: -- three or four, I don't know.

CW: How do you have that picture? Have you always had it?

AK: I have a lot of pictures, but I gave them all to my children and they have it and this is the only one I kept. But I have a lot of them. And at that time, not at this time, but as I was getting older, I weighed a lot. I weighed 175 pounds and I was very heavy. And that's where the name Jumbo came from, the elephant.

CW: Yeah, you told me, yeah.

AK: And as I got older -- in fact, right after my bar mitzvah, I seem to have lost a lot of the weight and became normal again. Let's see, what else have we got?

CW: Well, that one's fun.

AK: Well, this was when I became a hairdresser, you have to get a license as a hairdresser.

CW: You can hold up --

AK: And I took my head and put it on that body because -- although that's really my body, but it was on a different head. Anyway, this is what I wanted to be, not that -- what I was. And let me see, this is what I looked like when I was in --

CW: If you can just hold it up like this, 'cause it -- yeah.

AK: -- when I was in the Navy. Some of my friends.

CW: You look like you're having fun.

AK: I was. And now, this is not important. This is -- here is my high school diploma with some of my friends. I'm here somewhere.

CW: Just want it so you can see it in the camera there. There we go. So, this must have been -- is this when you were -- after you came back from the war?

AK: Oh, yeah, these are from --

CW: From the Navy?

AK: When I was out of the Navy. This is me here and some of my friends here. This is how we dressed in those days. (laughs)

CW: Yeah, yeah.

AK: In fact, I still have some of those clothes. They're coming back in style. (laughs)

CW: Yeah, you could probably sell them. (laughs)

AK: And this is my public school diploma. This is my speech that I made when I was bar mitzvahed. I don't know if you could read it through there. If you want 86:00to, you could take the front --

CW: Maybe I'll scan it.

AK: -- of it off.

CW: Yeah. Yeah, you can still read it.

AK: And my rabbi put in a few Yiddish words in there, as well.

CW: Yep. Yeah, Hebrew words, it looks like, yeah.

AK: Yeah.

CW: And --

AK: Well, the rest is some licenses that I got as a hairdresser.

CW: Do you have any good stories from being a hairdresser? (laughter) Any memorable customers? Did any of the Murder, Inc. come into your salon?

AK: No, but I have a lot of stories. But that will take all day.

CW: Well, just one maybe.

AK: Well, I used to have some crazy -- before I became my own boss, I used to 87:00have some crazy bosses. And in those days, we used to have pictures all over our walls with hairstyles. And a woman came in, not to me but to my boss, and wanted a certain haircut from a style that she saw on a picture on the wall. And he was a pretty good hairstylist and as a result, he thought he was the best. And he started to cut her hair and when he was finished, she looked in the mirror and she looked at the picture and she said, "I don't look like that." So, he got very excited. He took the scissor and cut a big chunk out of her hair and said, 88:00"You don't look like that because you're ugly!" and he threw her out of his store. And that was one of the things that went on in the stores. This was a really temperamental guy. And then, when I first started, it was in a beauty school up in New York, on Forty-Second Street. It's called [Mueller?] Institute. It's not there anymore. We used to get people off the streets to come into work on. And I think for maybe a dollar, she can get a haircut or color and it used to be a lot of street women that came in off the streets to get their hair done. And we used to do them and we had a lot of fun with them. And we used to try out 89:00all sorts of things on them. And one day, a lady came in with long hair and she wanted a haircut. And we were just learning how to use the razors. And I took out my razor and started to cut her hair. And I really couldn't control the razor, so I cut her hair quite a bit. And in those days, this new show with Mary Martin came into play. She was singing, "You have to cut that man right out of my hair." I think it was, what was the -- "South Pacific," that was it. And when I got through cutting her long hair, she had short hair. And I looked at it and I said, Oh my God, what did I do to her? And she looked in a mirror and I said, 90:00"You know something? You got the latest style today. You ever see Mary Martin in 'South Pacific' with the short hair? She's singing, 'I got to cut that man right out of my hair'?" And she said, "No, but I heard she had real short hair." I told her, "Now you've got it." And she was happy. She walked out smiling. (laughs) So, that was one of my experiences. But I had a lot of them, which I -- so many that I've forgotten.

CW: Well, I have two questions, I guess, to end today. One is sort of if you have any favorite Yiddish phrases that you connect to or want to share today?

AK: Well, yeah, there's one. When somebody used to get me angry, I used to say, 91:00"You should nor vaksn vi a tsibele vakst, mit di kop in der erd un di fis aroys [grow like a onion grows, with your head in the ground and your feet up]." And that's one of them. Or pliukhering.

CW: Can you explain what those two mean? Yeah.

AK: You should grow like an onion with your head in the ground and your feet sticking up. And whenever it rained, we used to say it's pliukhering. It's pouring. And my kids even use that today.

CW: And then, I'm wondering, for a last question, if you have advice? You've lived through a lot and you've seen a lot of things change. Do you have advice for the next generations?

AK: Well, yeah, I guess. Whenever you hear somebody speak or talk or say 92:00something, don't come back with an answer right away. Think of what that person is saying. It may be nothing or it may be important. But if you come out with an answer immediately, without thinking about it, you may get yourself into trouble. So, just think before you speak. That's what I've been through all my life. Sometimes I said things and I was sorry for saying it afterwards. And sometimes, you have to say things because they're important and you have to get it out of your system. And especially if you think you're right. But think about 93:00it before you say anything. That's all. That's what I have to say.

CW: Well, a sheynem dank [thank you very much].

AK: Thank you.

CW: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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