ELLSWORTH (AL) ROSEN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is January 6th, 2012. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Ellsworth Rosen and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record this interview?

ELLSWORTH ROSEN: You do.

CW: Thank you. So, as a place to start, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little about your family background, what you know about their life in Europe?

ER: Well, I was born in New Haven, Connecticut. And my parents spoke Yiddish 1:00quite a bit. I was actually -- we were born in a very -- almost a slum in New Haven. And one reason why my name is Ellsworth is it was near Ellsworth Avenue in New Haven. And my father, who was a religious man, never, ever called me that. I was Eli, I was Eliyahu. He said, "That's your mother's name." But I knew that my father came from Russia. He came in 1913, in order to escape the draft. And of course, after we arrived in the United States and became, I guess, a 2:00citizen, he got drafted into the American Army. But he was a good musician. He played the violin and was a violin teacher. So, when he got into the Army, he decided he was going to play in the band. But they didn't have violins in the band. So, he said, "I'll play the French horn." It goes boom-boom-boom. So, he played in the band and never went overseas. But he was a veteran. (laughs) And for a long time in the 1920s, he was a violin teacher. Came the Depression, my mother was born in Riga, in Latvia, and was the oldest of five daughters. And 3:00apparently, one of her claims to fame is she went through the gymnasium. She was well-educated and she spoke Yiddish beautifully and used to give lectures, readings in Yiddish.

CW: I'd like to ask first about your father. Did he ever talk about Russia, growing up there?

ER: Very little. And that's another whole psychological thing. We kept asking, What was life like in Russia? And he said, "My father was very hard." That was it. We figured he may have been beaten by his father. We don't know. But he had 4:00a brother here, a sister here. They all emigrated but not the parents. So, I knew very little about his life. My mother spoke quite a bit and then, later on, our grandmother, her mother, lived with us. And she spoke only Yiddish. So, I heard Yiddish all the time. I never spoke it, but I could understand it. And when they wanted to keep a secret, they would say, in Yiddish -- and, of course, I understood it, like so many others. When the Depression came, nobody was taking violin lessons anymore. And my father, what do you do for a living? He 5:00became a cantor. He knew music, he had a wonderful voice, and he knew Hebrew very well. So, he became a cantor and that was what he did for the rest of his life. And my mother loved being the khaznte [female (synagogue) cantor]. So, we settled in New Britain, Connecticut. But during the Depression, when we lost our house because we couldn't pay a five thousand dollar mortgage, my grandmother and grandfather moved in with us. And they spoke Yiddish all the time.

CW: So, these were your mother's parents?

ER: My mother's parents. And she had, as I say, four sisters. So, I had four doting aunts and they all spoke Yiddish. And they spoke English, too, but -- so, it was a -- I never knew that we were poor, but we were poor. But I do remember one thing, which -– (pauses) in the middle of all this, my father used to send ten dollars a month to his mother in Russia. And one day, I overheard him, "I'm not sure we have enough for our own food. Should I send the ten dollars?" And my 7:00mother said, "Of course you send." And he did. And I think even during the -- I don't know if they ever got it, but he put ten dollars in cash into an envelope and would send it to his mother. But his father, he would never talk about. So, that was a closed book from his point of view.

CW: And now, having your maternal grandparents in the home and your mother also, perhaps, talking about Riga, I mean, do you have a picture of what their life was like in Riga?

ER: Yes. They were definitely into education. They were religious. Not strongly, but they were very religious. But they were -- my grandfather was a farmer. And 8:00his claim to fame is that he was invited to come to the United States to grow tobacco in Windsor, Connecticut. And my grandmother (laughs) said, "What am I gonna do with five unmarried girls in Windsor, Connecticut where there are no Jewish boys?" So, they moved to New Haven where there was some family. And there was no farms, so my father -- my grandfather became a fruit peddler. And one of my joys was to go on the horse and wagon with my grandfather. And he would come 9:00back -- I must have been eight or nine and I watched the horses and the stable. And one day, he came back and said, "I don't know if you can come with me anymore. You ask too many questions." But it was wonderful. And --

CW: What did you like about it? I mean, what remains in your mind from that experience?

ER: He was such a gentle man. And, in his own way, a learned man. And I'll give you just one example. Gee, I haven't told these stories in a long time. He was a musician in his own way. And my father, who was studying cantorial, would go to 10:00papa and say, "Is this a good phrase?" And my grandfather would say, "You do this, do that," to improve it. So, my father wanted to teach us the violin. And I was a terrible violinist but I was a good musician and I took up the piano in self-defense, I think. And, in fact, I would accompany him when he played the violin. And one day, I was practicing the piano, and I still remember I was practicing a piece that goes (sings wordlessly) and my grandfather said, "There's a note missing." And I said, "No, I'm playing all the notes!" And he 11:00said, "No, no, but there's a note missing." And what it was is that that particular piece had a sixteenth note rest. It was deliberately a note missing. So, it was (sings wordlessly) but not eight notes, only seven notes. I said, How did he know that there were -- I mean, he knew it. And he had never heard that song before, but he was right. And I had to explain to him -- he said, "Terrible composer. He should have put in all the notes!" (laughs) But, I mean, so he was a self-taught guy and it was a pleasure having him around. And needless to say, 12:00he spoiled me a little bit. And my grandmother also -- I would ask her, you know, what was life like in Riga. "Oh, we had family, we had friends, and I sent my kinder [children] to school." And that was the important thing for her. And my mother was the -- well, sort of the oldest sister of the five, so they all came to Sarah. So, it was a warm family life. And having the Yiddish around all the time -- and we got the "Tog" as the family newspaper. And I would read the English column. So, one day, I asked my grandmother, "Teach me to read the 13:00newspaper." So, I could read Hebrew, so I could figure out the thing. And the headline I remember, "Germanye hot gebambn [Germany bombed] England." This is Yiddish? So, I didn't -- but I never really spoke it. But I could understand it.

CW: Are there any phrases or specific proverbs that sort of characterize any of your grandparents or your parents in Yiddish? That you remember from that time?

ER: Nothing that I recall as such. No.

CW: So, it sounds like there was a lot of music around --

ER: Yes.

CW: -- in the home. What styles of music? I mean, having a cantor, I would imagine it would be some Jewish music. What was the music that was around?

ER: Both classical and Jewish. My father played a wonderful violin. I mean, he was a teacher. And he could play some very difficult violin. My aunts, believe it or not, sang. They had beautiful voices and sang Yiddish songs. And I would 15:00accompany them on the piano. So, aunt Gertie, who was sort of my second mother, "Der yidishe mame [My Yiddish mother]," and aunt Sally would sing "Bay mir bistu sheyn [To me, you are beautiful]," and so there was a lot of Yiddish music as well as classical music. I had an older brother who played the violin and we used to play classical music together, sonatas. He was a good violinist. I was not. But I was a good pianist and I'm a good sight-reader. So, if I make a mistake, I make mistake. But we would play Mozart, Schubert. So, there was 16:00cantorial music. I sang in my father's choir at age six or seven. He couldn't pay for a choir, so he recruited us. And would you believe, I don't know if you -- are you familiar with Rashi? He knew Rashi, which is French. And he was teaching me Rashi at age six or seven, the explanations. And I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to know it. So, he took these studies very seriously. And fortunately, because I was close to my father, this is another way of being 17:00close. So, it was a very warm family life.

CW: Now, in your family, were there specific Shabbos rituals that were particular to your family, maybe including music or foods that you remember as being specific to your family?

ER: Always had a Friday night supper and a Shabbos meal. My mother was an excellent cook and so -- and they were kosher. And I remember, after my mother died, we lived in the same town in Connecticut. And we would say, Well, what do 18:00we to -- we want to invite my father. And he would say, "You can invite me. I know you'll do the right thing." That was it. So, we would have fish or we'd have a kosher this. We wouldn't insult him. But he didn't make a to-do. He said, "I know you'll do the right thing."

CW: Were there any of your mother's recipes that you remember as being your favorites?

ER: Her kugel was marvelous. Oh, and my grandmother was an expert on strudel. Have you ever watched strudel being made?

CW: Can you explain how she did it?

ER: You know what it is?

CW: Yeah, can you explain how she did it?

ER: She would take a little piece of dough and start spreading it. And it kept 19:00spreading and spreading and then filled it up and then rolled it up. But bobe [grandmother]’s strudel was always the masterpiece of the -- she was a good cook, too. But she was very gentle with my mother.

CW: What kind of strudel was it? Like, what would she fill it with?

ER: Oh, with walnuts, with prunes, I think, with all different kinds of fruit fillings. God, do I know? And then, rolled up the dough. But you've had strudel? Okay.

CW: Maybe not with dates and walnuts, but I have had strudel. (laughs)

ER: Yeah, dates were -- by the way, you know that in Israel, the email thing, 20:00when you do a so-and-so at so-and-so, they call that thing a strudel. (laughter)

CW: It seems like your family was religious, frum [pious] more or less.

ER: Yes.

CW: What holidays stand out in your mind when you (UNCLEAR)?

ER: Well, two holidays. Of course, Pesach. We always had a seder, always had a lot of people, and we always drank the wine. But the other thing, when my father was a cantor and he had to get ready for Kol Nidre, he said, "It's time for a 21:00gogl-mogl [sore throat remedy]." A gogl-mogl is a -- it must be a Russian term. A big drink or something. An egg, honey, whiskey. Warm it up and he said, "It makes your throat better so I can sing better for the Kol Nidre service. And the ritual for before he went to shul was, he would have his gogl-mogl. (laughs) And he sang very well. (laughs) And we would go, always, to the Kol Nidre service.

CW: Are there any -- I mean, so much has changed in terms of Jewish music in temple. Are there any tunes or nigunim [melodies] that you remember from your father?

ER: Oh, "Oyfn pripetshik [On the hearth]" is one of them, "Bay mir bistu sheyn," which may or may not be Yiddish. And, well, almost all the niguns I can remember. And I used to play a lot of them on the piano. I could improvise a lot 23:00of them. But other than the specific songs, not really.

CW: Would you be willing to share one of the niguns that you remember?

ER: Well, the "Oyfn pripetshik" is the -- you know that one?

CW: Yeah, but I'm wondering if you'd be willing to just --

ER: (sings) "Oyfn pripetshik, brent a fayerl, un der rebe [On the hearth, a fire burns, and the rebbe] -- un der --" (sings wordlessly) “un der rebe -- 24:00kinderlekh -- alef-beys [and the rebbe -- children -- alphabet]” -- I forgot the words, but -- (laughs)

CW: That's okay. It's a beautiful tune. You have a good singing voice, (laughs) thank you. I'd like to ask a little bit about the Jewish community that you grew up in. You mentioned that your grandparents moved away from Windsor, Connecticut and then your parents moved to New Britain. What was the Jewish community like in New Britain?

CW: Well, it was not a big community. And the fact that my father was the cantor gave me a little bit of prestige. It also meant that I had to get good marks 'cause you're the cantor's son. So, you've got to perform. It was kind of a 25:00close-knit community and my father knew everybody. And it was a Conservative synagogue and I went to the Sunday school there and the Hebrew school. When I first came to New Britain, now that I think of it, I was twelve and a half. And I had my bar mitzvah and I didn't have any friends at that time because we had just moved in. But it was amazing. Not part of the Jewish community -- and New 26:00Britain had a, believe it or not that time, a good high school. And I was in the ninth grade and I took the Latin test. And would you believe I came in first? I don't think the competition was that good, but -- so, when I went to high school, "You're the one who was number one in Latin?" It opened all the doors, and all of a sudden, I became popular and I became -- it was a revelation. Not all my friends were Jewish, and as I think back on high school, it was very mixed. I had Polish friends, Italian. There were no blacks at that time there. But I knew every Jewish kid in high school. So, it was not segregated. But it 27:00was a closely-knit community.

CW: I mean, moving from New Haven to New Britain, was it a big shift for you in terms of your friends and your community? You just mentioned you didn't have friends at your bar mitzvah but in terms of your experience, did you notice the difference in the Jewish community in New Haven and New Britain?

ER: Actually, we moved from Bridgeport, but --

CW: Oh.

ER: -- that's something else.

CW: Oh, Bridgeport, oh, right, okay.

ER: We moved from New Haven to Bridgeport, New Britain.

CW: Okay.

ER: You know what? Now that -- I was in my own world and the most important 28:00thing was, where is the library? And I would read and I would go to the library and get four or five books at a time. So, I was in my own world. And don't forget, I had an older brother and a younger brother. So, we were sort of self-contained. And I didn't know enough to be unhappy.

CW: What did you like to read?

ER: A lot of music. I tried to play baseball. I started playing tennis. I think it was reading.

CW: And were there specific authors that you loved? Did you read American 29:00literature or Jewish literature? What did you like?

ER: I did not particularly read Jewish literature. Mark Twain, the Boy Scout series. (laughs) I read everything. And my older brother, who was three years older, he said, "You've got to read this. You've got to read that." And I became involved a little politically with the Spanish Civil War. That's 1936 and ’37. So, I was not particularly Jewishly oriented.

CW: So, what was your involvement with the Spanish Civil War?

ER: Well, one, I learned to sing the Spanish songs. (sings) "Los Cuatro Generales [Spanish: The Four Generals]" -- are you familiar with any of them?

CW: I don't know that one. Can you sing it?

ER: Well, that's almost the –- (sings) "Los cuatro gen--" the four generals. (sings wordlessly) We hung the pictures on the wall from the Spanish Civil War. I read the -- “Linkon brigade [Lincoln Brigade]" was the song. So, I guess I was politically -- I won't say active, but aware.

CW: And how aware were you of -- and maybe this will bring us into a little bit 31:00of the next phase of your life, but how aware were you of sort of what was going on in Europe in the ’30s? I mean, the Spanish Civil War, but in terms of Germany --

ER: I was aware of, later on, of Kristallnacht. I read about the -- because we got the "Tog," I read about the Nuremburg Laws. But you know what? We didn't believe everything. Said, "This is propaganda." And even to the end, I remember reading -- this is a little bit later on -- two million people were killed in camps? Can't be. You can't kill two million people. This is like in World War I, the Huns did this and the Huns did that. So, I was a little bit aware, but it 32:00wasn't a major part of my -- I was more aware of the Spanish Civil War than what was happening to the Jews.

CW: And was politics something that you discussed around the dinner table?

ER: About the Jewish aspect?

CW: Well, just politics in general.

ER: Not very much. My parents were sort of apolitical. But I hung around with my older brother and his friends. So, I had mentors of -- people who said, And you've got to read this, the Italian writers, and you've got to read Hemingway. 33:00At the age fourteen or fifteen, I was reading those books.

CW: And looking back on your family, your early family life, having your grandparents around and your parents and all these aunts, what were sort of the values that you felt that all this family was trying to instill in you?

ER: Well, one, the importance of family and the importance of learning. Reading all those books, my mother said, "Great." She didn't know most of them. But she 34:00called me “Elenke.” "Keep reading!" And I was a little bit ahead of my time in school. I graduated high school at age sixteen. I skipped a grade in New Haven. So, I was usually the youngest one around in my group. But I had my older brother, David, who became a math professor, by the way, and his friends. And they used to -- You got to read this one, you got to read that one. Have you 35:00ever heard of Romain Rolland? He was a humanist in the 1920s. And I was reading Romain Rolland, a book called "Jean-Christophe," which is sort of on Beethoven. And I think I was fourteen or fifteen. And I said, Of course, that's the kind of stuff you're supposed to read.

CW: Wow. And now, I just want to ask one question before we move on from this phase of your life. But I'm just curious, because the gymnasium was such an important institution in the sort of Riga and Lita area, did your mother ever 36:00describe the gymnasium experience?

ER: Not really, other than she did very well and was very proud and all the sisters were very proud. Sarah was a star in the gymnasium. But the actual experience, no.

CW: So, you say that this is getting your memories going. Are there any -- as you're thinking back to that time, are there any specific experiences or memories that you really would like to share that are coming up?

ER: Well, there are a couple of anti-Semitic incidents in high school, which -- 37:00I don't want to say they were defining but they were -- as I say, I had a lot of different friends. But I do remember that New Britain at that time had a lot of Polish students, resident -- and they were big. They all went on to Fordham football team and a thing -- and I remember one time, I think it was I was a junior in high school, where one of them picked me up and put me against the wall. And, I mean, I was not light at the time. (laughs) But he was heavy. And he didn't do anything, but it was, Come on, what are you doing? And so, it was 38:00one of those things where it could happen. But by and large, the anti-Semitic incidents were not too bad.

CW: So, when did you -- maybe this is skipping forward a little bit, but when did you enlist?

ER: Actually, in 1942. I was at NYU at the time and I enlisted as part of the ROTC. You're familiar with that? And the thing was that if you enlisted, you would go to officers' training school after that year. And so, I finished my 39:00sophomore year and I did go to officers' training school and flunked out. And I flunked out because I could not do push-ups. One of the criteria, apparently, was that you had to do twenty-five push-ups. So, I could do about five. And then, the next day, they said, All right, do it again, completely wrong. Now, you're supposed to let the muscles rest a day and then you build up gradually. They didn't do that. So, by the end of the week, I was doing one because my muscles were getting weaker because they didn't rest. I had a hundred on all my 40:00tests and everything else -- and so, I flunked, which was probably the best thing that happened, because lieutenants didn't last very long in infantry. And most of the time, in combat, we didn't have a lieutenant. Either they got killed or they -- wounded. One of them was shell-shocked and had to be sent back. And I eventually became the platoon sergeant, not because I was so good but because I lasted. And so, I was lucky in that respect.

CW: What was it like to be Jewish in the service during that period?

ER: There were comments. It was mixed. I was sent as a replacement in the Texas division from New Haven, Connecticut, a Yankee in the Texas division. On the one hand, they were grateful to have anybody. A live body was very important. When I first came in, this was October of ’44, after flunking out. (laughs) They said, We're not gonna bother to learn your name for a couple weeks. Most of the 42:00replacements don't last that long. If you last that long, welcome. And they were right. The turnover, particularly of replacements, was terrible. So, after a couple weeks, I became a corporal, I became a sergeant, because I had seniority pretty quickly because the replacements kept coming and going. There was one time, though, a couple Texas sergeants who were the cooks -- so, they were back a little bit. So, they said, Rosen, how come you're up here and not back in the 43:00rear echelon with the rest of your guys? And by that time, I was not gonna take anything from them. I said, "Oh, they sent me up here to make sure you do a good job." And so, we laughed. But there was the undertone of, "What are you doing up here?" And a Jewish soldier was -- there may be, out of a company of 180 people, maybe there were three. So, by the way, out of that company, I was one of a handful that was not killed or wounded. So, the turnover was great. A lot of the wounded would come back, but it was usually four or five to one.

CW: Wow. Was there a sense of sort of connection between you and the other Jewish infantry?

ER: Not particularly. First of all, if they were not in your outfit -- and when I say outfit, your platoon, which is about thirty-five people -- you didn't see them. But, yeah, there were times where we would search each other out. I remember I went on one rest leave with Levine. I forgot his first name. He was simpatico.

CW: Did you remain religious through your time in the service?

ER: Not really. I was not religious to begin with. And yet, they arranged for a seder in, I think, March or April of 1945, and I went. And it was very moving, particularly -- it was being held in a barracks that the Germans had used, filled with the German murals and swastikas and other stuff. And we were very 46:00conscious of the irony of having a seder in that setting.

CW: Wow.

ER: So, I was not religious. My father was not happy with me in that respect.

CW: Well, I'd like to ask about the moment that you talk about being really a defining experience for you in April of 1945. Could you just tell that story about what --

ER: Yes. Actually, if I may, there were two moments.

CW: Of course.

ER: One was a train that our unit -- again, platoon or company -- came across in 47:00the middle of a field. There were boxcars, and locked. And we didn't know what it was and as we approached, there was a little bit of a fight. And I forgot whether the Germans surrendered or we shot them, I don't remember. But we opened up the doors. They were filled with -- there was straw on the floor of the train. One or two of them got out and started saying -- and I remember one of 48:00them saying, "Du bist a yidishe soldat [Are you a Jewish soldier]?" 'Cause I was able to ask -- I don't remember the exact words. And we learned that they had not had anything to eat or drink for six days. And a third of them were already dead on that train. And we gave them water from our canteens. We gave them food, our K ration and C ration. Scarves and extra clothing that we might have had. It was my first experience with seeing them as sort of walking skeletons. And when 49:00I knew that these were all Jews, that was a revelation. This was probably towards the end of April, not far from Dachau. We now think that that was a train that was probably being evacuated from Bergen-Belsen, but we don't know. Either that, the next day or the day after, I don't remember, we came across a small camp where maybe a half a dozen barracks -- and the SS guards set fire to 50:00the barracks with the people inside and machine-gunned them as they tried to get out. They were gypsies. And there were no orders, but we did not take any of them prisoners, the SS. By common consent, we just did. And that was also a defining moment. At that point, the Germans were surrendering every day by the hundreds. There was one time the day or two before, we're going along the road 51:00and a company of Germans said, We'd like to surrender. And our captain said, "Come back tomorrow. We don't have any more room today," 'cause we'd have to guard them. And so, we knew the war was being over. We now know that that gypsy camp was a sub-camp of Dachau. Dachau had a bunch of sub-camps. And so, this was a very moving experience, obviously. Interestingly enough, Dachau was liberated 52:00on April the 29th. So, we can pinpoint that. We were close by. We did not liberate, our unit did not liberate Dachau, although we did liberate one of the sub-camps. We had never heard of Dachau. Didn't know anything about it. We were sent to Dachau a day or two after the liberation to view the camp. And I remember looking at the prisoners who were walking around. They were skeletons. And one guy, who was strong enough, had a wheelbarrow with two people in the 53:00wheelbarrow who were too weak to walk. He was wheeling them to a place where they could get some food. And that image of -- they were too weak to walk, to stand up, is something that -- and we were there, I don't know, three or four hours, because we had to move on. The war ended on May the 8th, and by the time the war ended, we were in Austria and kept going. But those experiences near Dachau were really defining moments in my life.

CW: Were you able to speak to any of the people? Prisoners?

ER: I don't recall that. I don't recall. I don't think so, because we were not 54:00by ourselves. We were with a whole group of people, our unit. And why they sent us in to look at it, it was very smart, but I don't know.

CW: So, it must have -- it's hard to even know what to ask next. But how did that experience -- you mentioned in something you wrote earlier that this possibly led you to work in the Jewish community later. What exactly does that 55:00term "a defining experience" mean to you?

ER: Well, not only those experiences but after the war, I was aware of the DP camps and how the Jews were being treated, even though they were being helped -- but not allowed to go to Palestine at that time. I said, the immensity of what happened and the fact that I and we didn't know about it was a little bit traumatic. And many people did not talk about their experiences. I did. I said, 56:00People got to know about it. And one of the other aspects of that -- when the war was over, not only Europe but also in Asia, they didn't know what to do with us. So, I was assigned as a newspaper reporter in Marseilles, as a soldier. It wasn't so terrible. I was a sergeant. And in the files were hundreds of pictures of the concentration camps that were taken by the Allies. And when we finally 57:00closed that office because everybody was being sent home, I took dozens of those pictures with me. I said, Nobody else is gonna care. I care. And one of the things that I noticed -- and, again, nobody knows -- almost none of the concentration camp prisoners were identified as Jewish. They were identified as Lithuanians, Poles, Estonians, Latvians. This is Bergen-Belsen, this is Sobibór, this is Dachau. There were no Jews there. And this is passed by the Allied 58:00censors. So, even then, they didn't want to tell the story that we went to the war to save the Jews. So, this had an effect on me that -- What's wrong with us, as Americans, that we did not tell the true story? And this was true, by the way -- "The New York Times," the "Stars and Stripes," they -- not never, but almost never, identified the prisoners as Jews until later on. So, this is something that I felt, I gotta deal with it. So, that probably influenced that -- if I got 59:00involved in the Jewish community, I can maybe tell this story a little bit better.

CW: What did you have the sense that you were fighting for, if not to -- at the time --

ER: One, we didn't know about the camps, until the end. We were fighting to win and we were fighting against Hitler and the domination of the fascism and all that. We were gonna win! (laughs)

CW: Yeah. So, one of the ways that you have passed on this information is through the film that you made.

ER: Yes.

CW: Can you tell a little bit about how you came into that project, what it was?

ER: Well, as I indicated, I would talk quite a bit, probably too much about the experience. You know, for a long time, they didn't talk about the Holocaust -- they, people -– until I think it was NBC, made a series on the Holocaust. And I helped start Facing History and Ourselves in Brookline. That's a separate story, but want me to tell it?

CW: Yeah, I would.

ER: I was on the school committee in Brookline and one of the social studies teachers came in and said, "We'd like to do a curriculum on the Holocaust." This 61:00is in the 1970s, and I'd like a sabbatical so I could write the curriculum. Well, the sabbatical is about thirty thousand dollars and I was the chairman of the school committee. I said, "Oh, that sounds good," and we voted it. She comes back the next semester. "I've got the curriculum. The other social studies teachers would like to use that curriculum. Can we have another grant so that I can teach the other social studies teachers?" "Yeah, that makes sense." (laughs) So, we voted that, and she comes back the next semester. Other social studies teachers around the -- Newton and others, they like the curriculum and they 62:00wanted to do the whole thing. "And we need an office." So, we said, This is too much. You're on your own. They started raising money. They now raise more than eleven million a year. But it started from the school committee grant many, many years ago. And Margo Strom said, "You're one of the founders." So, that made me feel very good.

CW: And when you say you would talk about your experiences, what situations would you find to tell people?

ER: One, that how little we knew as American soldiers, how little we believed the propaganda, and the immensity of what we saw. And that how could it happen 63:00and how could the Germans accept it and how come we didn't do more, we the Allies, to help prevent it? I mean, it's unbelievable that we couldn't do anything. Could we have done anything? It's hard to know. Could we have bombed the rails going in? Difficult. Eisenhower asked to do it and he said, "I've got to win the war." And he was being logical. And so, the fact that nobody lifted a 64:00finger was something that bothered me very much. So, I talk about it. And having talked about it for years, when I retired in 1990, I guess, I said, Well, I'd like to make a movie on this. But making a movie is not easy and raising the money to make a movie is definitely not easy. But we did it and I had a professional producer and we raised about a hundred thousand and we found people who had very similar experiences: ex-GIs, none of whom knew about the camps 65:00until they came across it. Officers, other GIs, so it was -- and it's still being used in high schools and colleges. I've been talking at various colleges and high schools and use that. I'm giving a talk next month in Natick, of all places, on this experience.

CW: As you're talking about this educating and making sure that this story is passed on, how is this sort of transmission of information important to you?

ER: Good question. I guess it's important that people know about it to help 66:00prevent things like that happening again. So, when you see injustices in other parts of the world, we should do something about it. Should America become the policeman of the world? No. But should they work with other countries to help prevent what's happening in Africa, Somali, Yemen? I mean, there's so many places where we could help. I don't think we should do it alone, but I think we should sensitize people that something should be done together.

CW: For you personally, have there been moments where you've said, based on what 67:00you're talking about, something needs to be done, and used your past experience to kind of guide you in your opinions of problems later on?

ER: Yeah, right. Yeah, well, I've always been an activist, I guess, including the Spanish Civil War, and that we have to do things in order to make this a better world.

CW: Have there been any moments that you've felt like you really succeeded?

ER: Well, I think the fact that Facing History is teaching thousands of people 68:00on the Holocaust is one degree of success. The fact that my movie is being shown even ten years later indicates that there is some interest in it. That people are willing to listen indicates that they're willing to listen. So, yes, is it grand success? No. But you take what you can get.

CW: I'd like to ask a broader question about -- obviously, you've been thinking about how to educate the next generation. How do you see, or where are the 69:00places that Jewish culture is really transmitted across to the next generation?

ER: Well, to the next generation of Jews, I assume that you're talking about. It should not be only the Holocaust. It should be the positive aspects of Judaism that is transmitted. I think that's why the Yiddish Book Center is very important. I think music is a very important part of it. The popularity of Isaac Bashevis Singer is part of it. And the next generation is not as religious, but 70:00culturally, they're interested. And including all the mixed marriages, it's not gone. So, believe it or not, I'm positive that there will be something transmitted. Will it be as much as everybody wants? No. But it'll be something and it may be a remnant or it may be something that grows. But the fact that we're talking about transmitting it, I think, is very good.

CW: How has language played a role in your own identity, growing up with Yiddish 71:00around, for example?

ER: Well, the fact that I could understand some Yiddish was very important. Actually, I'm a pretty good linguist when you come down to it. I studied French in high school and when I was in Europe, I used French all the time. And when I go back on trips, I'm amazed that I'm able to converse in French even after all these years. So, knowing other languages is very important, and I even understand some of the German.

CW: Yeah. I do want to ask another couple questions about this, but first I'd 72:00like to talk a little bit about this Yiddishist that you knew in Boston and the connection with the Yiddish writer Chaim Grade.

ER: Okay. There was a Yiddishist named Abe Bornstein who was a son-of-a-gun. He was a tough character but a lovable tough character. (laughs) And I got to know him because when I was working for the American Friends of the Hebrew University, he was one of the people who was going to leave a major bequest to the Hebrew University. And he was also gonna leave a minor bequest to a 73:00Lubavitch group in Boston. And I said, "Abe, why are you doing that?" He said, "Well, the Hebrew University will take care of the big thing and they take care of Yiddishkayt at their -- they do good work," even though he had nothing to do with them, never went to any of their services. But he said, "They're good." The last years of his life, he was blind. And while he was not educated, he was very sharp. And I would visit him once a week and he said, "Bring me something 74:00interesting to read that you will read to me." Abe. So, I would find an article on astronomy in "The New York Times." He said, "That's a good subject." Or something on agriculture. Some esoteric subject. He'd love it. Well, every Friday, when I could no longer solicit, I would visit him at his small apartment in Brookline. But so would the other people. The rabbi from the Lubavitch would bring a challah. And Rabbi Twersky, does the name mean anything to you? The head 75:00of the Jewish Studies Center at Harvard would also bring a challah. And I ended up not bringing a challah but orange juice because he had enough challahs at that time. Well, one day, I also brought over the chancellor of the Hebrew University, Avraham Harman, who was the former ambassador to the United States. Big guy. And they're all talking Yiddish, including the ambassador, including Rabbi Twersky, including Abe, not including me, although I could understand. And 76:00Abe starts telling the story about Chaim Grade. And he says, "I'm leaving more than four hundred letters to the Hebrew University." I said -- I don't know whether I said or they said, "Why do you have more than four hundred letters?" "'Cause Chaim Grade would write to me every week." And one of the reasons was that Abe would make sure that Chaim Grade had money. He didn't give the money to Chaim Grade. He gave the money to the Jewish Studies Center at Harvard. Harvard 77:00would invite him to give a lecture at Harvard and pay him for the lecture so he could keep his dignity, get the money without feeling that Abe was giving him -- directly. It was a very clever way of doing it. So, Chaim Grade would write to Abe and thank him and Abe, who knew no khokhmes [took things seriously], said, "What you're writing to me is narishkeyt [foolishness]. If you're gonna write me narishkeyt, don't bother. But I want to know what you're thinking. I want to know what you're working on. I want to know what your next project is and what 78:00your attitudes on this and this and this" -- so, I don't know what period of time we're talking about, but four hundred letters? If he wrote one a week, that's got to be over a period of eight or nine years. And I don't know what they contain. So, now this is all in Yiddish, that they were telling this story, and somehow I understood it. They always said, Do you understand this word? Yeah, well, I could get it. And so, it was something that nobody else would know 79:00about, these letters. And then, as I indicated, I later on bumped into Professor Kassow at Trinity, where -- he was my daughter's -- she was taking a class with him and told him about this. So, I don't know whether he's done anything about it, but he should. And if he doesn't, I'm gonna yell at him. (laughs) But it would be interesting to see whether these letters are narishkeyt or whether they add additional insight into Chaim Grade. But they're there at the Hebrew University library for anybody to study.

CW: Wow. Have you read much of Grade yourself?

ER: I didn't enjoy the book that much. (laughs) I read "The Yeshiva." But I could see where he was a -- no, I haven't read a lot. But he was a serious writer.

CW: Yeah, wow. So, I mean, this -- it's amazing to think that you, the knowledge that you learned in your home growing up meant so many decades later you were able to understand this whole complicated story, and everything in Yiddish. I mean, what role has Yiddish played in your adult life and the knowledge of the language?

ER: Well, I've attended concerts where they have Yiddish music. The Zamir Chorale sings a number of songs. The klezmer group. When I was at Combined 81:00Jewish Philanthropies, we had the klezmer group at one of our meetings and a lot of the German Jews, What are we doing with a klezmer group? Said, "You got to get a little bit of Jewish feeling." And so, Yiddishkayt meant a great deal to me, even though I wasn't farbrent [zealous]. But it was meaningful to me. And in terms of being able to understand after all these years, it's, I guess, my natural brilliance maybe, or I remember, just as I remember French. After years 82:00of not speaking it, when I went to Normandy a couple years ago, I was able to carry on the conversation in French. I needed some help, but the words would come back. So, I think being able to have it in the back of my mind was important.

CW: Speaking of, again, of transmission and the sort of extended, large family with deep roots in Eastern Europe and Yiddish being around in the family, how do you see that aspect of sort of the Eastern European Jewish culture being passed down to future generations or not being passed down?

ER: It did not play a great role in my life, other than the music. The shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community] life, interesting but not meaningful for someone who grew up in America. Sometimes over-glamorized. It was a terrible life in the shtetl, and it's something that you almost put behind you. And yet, the sense of community was very important. And that part of it has 84:00a great deal of meaning, that people sort of stuck together. If you have time, one story --

CW: Sure.

ER: -- I play chess with a guy who was in a gulag as a ten-year-old kid. He survived, obviously. And I said, "What was it like?" The family was sent to Siberia. He said, "Well, the snow was six feet high. We crawled through the window because we couldn't open the door." "Was it terrible?" "No." "What do you mean it wasn't terrible?" "Everybody was in it together. Everybody suffered the same and we all helped each other. Sense of community." And he said, "I learned 85:00to play chess. We made the pieces out of bread." And he's a good chess player. (laughs) But that has stayed with me. This is a guy who should complain about what a terrible life and he said -- "So, how did you get out of that terrible gulag?" "When the Americans joined the war against Hitler, Stalin, as a gesture, opened up this particular Jewish camp and sent them to Palestine through Persia, 86:00Iran, at the time. And I ended up in England, where I had a relative. But it was pure luck that he decided to open up this camp and not that camp." This is American life. But the Eastern Europe experience, it's exotic, it's meaningful, but it's not gonna be replicated here. And it's another era.

CW: What aspects of Judaism, Jewish culture, Yiddishkayt are important to you now?

ER: Well, I guess my father's influence on knowing the meaning of the Torah, the 87:00meaning behind it, the laws, and -- is very important, that the moral values -- is very important. The cultural things -- I love the music. I love the khazonishe [cantorial] stuff. I still have recording -- my father doing the Kol Nidre and he wrote music, composed khazonishe stuff. I think transmitting some of the culture is very important, but not for itself. For the meaning behind it. 88:00The moral values. And that's why we've got to live a good life. Otherwise, we're not being true.

CW: Well, I'd like to close by asking you if you have any advice for future generations?

ER: Well, my major advice is what my brother told me: read, learn, and apply. Read the background, different cultures, but what the cultures stand for and why the positive cultures have to be stronger than the Nazi cultures and the fascist 89:00cultures. So, just reading is not enough, but applying it to your own life and bringing up your kids to live that life. And not just be good, but be true to yourself and be true to society. Keep making -- try to make society better. It's a platitude but something I'm still idealistic enough to want to convey.

CW: Great. Well, thank you so much.

ER: Okay, you interview very well, madame. (laughter)

CW: Well, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]