MILLY GUBERMAN KRAVETZ ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney. (laughs) And today is March 13th, 2012. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Milly Guberman Kravetz and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record this interview?

MILLY GUBERMAN KRAVETZ: Yes, you do.

CW:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much]. (laughs) Okay, so, to start, can you tell me briefly what you know about where your family came from?

MGK:I know in a general way. My father used to say that we were a rusishe af beyde zaytn, which means that we were Russian on both sides, which meant that at 1:00a time when that part of the world kept changing between Russia and Poland and the Austro-Hungary empire -- that at that time, both my parents were born in the part that was Russian, probably what would now be the Ukraine. My mother came from a shtetl [small Eastern European town with a Jewish community] called Sudylkiv, which she said, at that time, was in Volhyn Gubernia. Now, in looking at a map, I've seen that that name has been changed to something that sounds much more Russian and less Yiddish. My father came from what he said was a border town but was Russian at the time that he was living there. And that was 2:00called Radziwiłłów, which, I think, then, from what we know about Jackie Kennedy's sister, married to the prince of Radziwiłłów, became more Polish. And that's all I really know about it, except that, again, in trying to get information about these towns, it turns out that Sudylkiv was a very well-known -- least at that time -- Hasidic center. Couldn't get too much information, even in the "Encyclopedia Judaica," about Radziwiłłów.

CW:Do you know what your grandparents and great-grandparents did in these small 3:00towns, their occupations?

MGK:My understanding is that my father's father or grandfather was a rabbi. But I guess many of that generation were rabbis or Talmudic scholars of some sort, which may be why father rebelled (laughs) and became quite the opposite. I know a little bit more about my mother's grandparents and my grandfather's family. And they owned what would now be called, I think, a dry goods store, where they 4:00sold things and were apparently quite well-to-do. And he was the only son and was a very spoiled, (laughs) very spoiled young man. Well into his later years, too. My grandmother's family, I'm not sure what they did, but I think that they also had some kind of retail business of some sort. And she was the only girl, and one of a twin. And so, she was very much spoiled. And so, these two spoiled 5:00young people came together and (laughs) life was not easy. My grandfather came here first. He had tried, on the urging -- I don't know with how much in -- I would imagine with a lot of encouragement from his family to go into the family business, and he wasn't cut out for it. (laughs) And so, he was going to show them that he was going to be independent. So, he left to go to the medine [land]. He was going to make his fortune on his own in America. And as far as I know, he had no training, no special schooling, and he didn't make it. And he 6:00had left behind, I think, my grandmother and my mother. So then, he came back and tried again, the business, but he had no head for business. And again, he was going to show them. (laughs) And again, it didn't work. But somehow or other, he was able to put together some money. Oh, and while he came back that first time, my grandmother became pregnant and my aunt was born. I think she's maybe two years younger than my mother. And after the second time that he came to America, he was able eventually to send for them. And at that point, my 7:00mother was about seven years old and my aunt, I think, was about five. And I don't rem-- the stories are kind of murky and my memory is also a little murky at this point. So, I don't know whether he came back to Russia again. But in any case, I do know that my mother was seven when they came and I think that was perhaps about 1903 or '04. And she and my aunt really went through the whole public school system.

CW:Yeah, I just want to interrupt for one sec. Do you mind putting your glasses down, just -- (laughs) I know it's --

MGK:Otherwise, I just use my (UNCLEAR) --

CW:Yeah, I know, I can just hear it a little bit, so --

MGK:My father was the only one in his family who came over. So, I never had any 8:00aunts, uncles, cousins from his side of the family until I learned many, many years later about some of the family who went to Israel and Australia and one cousin to New York. So, my father was perhaps eighteen or nineteen years old when he came. And he came because if he hadn't come, he would have been arrested, sent to the army because he had been actively involved in one of the Bund organizations, I think, and had been at a -- I think my recollection is it was called a commercial college. Whether, in fact, it was college-level as we 9:00know it or more gymnasium kind of -- I mean, that, I don't know. But he and his brother were at this commercial college, studying to be, I don't know, accountants, whatever. But he had been involved in organizations, leafletting and so on, and had been caught. And it was either getting over the border or getting picked up. And so, the family somehow got him over the border and he came to America alone and, I think, connected with some landslayt [plural of landsman (fellow countrymen)] and people from the shtetl where he came from and remained here. Never went back.

CW:Wow.

MGK:So, that's all I know about where they came from.

CW:Wow. Well, I'd like to ask a few questions about your home. When you think back to the home you grew up in, are there any memories, images, smells that initially come to mind?

MGK:Yeah, there was certainly the Shabbos smell. (laughs)

CW:Can you tell me about that?

MGK:Not just cooking smells, but the smell of the house being especially clean and the floor having been washed and the newspapers down on the floor until it was time to get ready for Shabbos and light the candles and so on. And I never understood why the newspapers had to be down. But apparently, that was not 11:00idiosyncratic to my mother. Also, the smell of the candles Friday night when they began to flicker off. And even now, there's that very special Shabbos (UNCLEAR) smell that -- at the end of Friday night. So, that's one kind of smell that still comes back to me because, I guess, it gets reinforced.

CW:Yeah. And what was your family's Shabbos? Were there any special family things you did?

MGK:No, 'cause I used to say that I was the product of a mixed marriage. My 12:00mother -- well, my grandparents off and on used to live with us, and so I remember going to shul on some of the holidays with my grandfather -- and I was a very young child and sitting with him downstairs, with the men, because as a child I was allowed to do that. So, my mother was traditionally observant, kept a kosher home, kosher kitchen with two kinds of soap, Rokeach red and Rokeach blue. Two separate towels, the red stripe and the blue stripe. At least four 13:00sets of dishes, fleyshedik [meat] and milkhedik [dairy], normally, and then the good fleyshik set. And then, the peysedike [Passover] sets, fleyshik and milkhik and the equivalent silverware. My father -- oh, and she was not a regular shul-goer but certainly on the holidays, the High Holidays, and always when yizkor was going to be said and occasionally at other times. My grandfather 14:00would go more often, and among the vivid memories I have of going with him, you know, walking through the streets to the shul with the flag and the apple on top for the holiday and other holidays. My father called himself, at best, agnostic. Sometimes, would even say, Well, maybe here's an atheist. But most often, he would call himself an agnostic. And so, I remember having long discussions with 15:00him as a young person trying to figure out first causes. (laughs) I mean, you have to believe in something. So, how did it happen? All kinds of questions. And he was very open to that and kind of ended up, I think, in a belief about what might be called nature, yeah. Something happened, who knows when or how, but it was natural. It wasn't anything supernatural or -- but with all of that, he was very respectful of my mother's belief system and behavioral patterns, and at 16:00times, would chastise us kids if we made a mistake (laughs) and used the wrong whatever it was. So, he was very observant of making sure that however my mother arranged things was the way it was going to be and in no way was he going to negate it, delegitimize it, or sabotage it.

CW:And where did you stand as a child between your parents' beliefs?

MGK:I never felt that there was dissension, really. I mean, he never pooh-poohed 17:00her, she never denigrated him. There was never any of that. As I say, I enjoyed going to shul with my grandfather. Later, as a teenager, I would go on the High Holidays because it was the teenage thing to do and this is where you met your friends, it was a day off from school, and all of that. I never felt conflict around that within the family.

CW:Did you have a favorite yontev [holiday]?

MGK:Oh, I think Pesach.

CW:Why?

MGK:'Cause it's a family time and there was all of the excitement about making the house different. I remember my mother, in the house where I grew up, there was a separate cupboard -- not within the pantry, which was a kind of separate room, but somewhere within the hall. And there was where she kept the peysedike dishes and silverware and special linens and all that. And it wasn't open any other time of the year. So, there was this excitement of opening it up and everything kind of became new again. And then, there was the clearing out of 19:00things in the pantry. And it was also a time of spring cleaning (laughs) and there were just things that happened only around that time. I remember we had lace curtains and there was something about putting them on stretchers? I don't know, things that never happen -- so, there was all that excitement that kind of pervaded the house for a while. And then, the special foods. And then, the things one couldn't have, unlike now when there's virtually no difference except 20:00for the matzah. And there wasn't soda of any kind. Used to put jam in the club soda (laughs) to make a sweetened drink. And the holiday, on many levels, was a special time with many differences from the rest of the year.

CW:You just mentioned the Pesach food. When you think about your mother in the kitchen with the different soaps and the different dishes, do you remember any particular foods, favorite foods that she would make? Or your grandparents, for that matter?

MGK:(laughs) Yeah, my grandmother would make some special things for my 21:00grandfather that I never knew about before, have never known anyone since (laughs) to either prepare or eat.

CW:(laughs) Really?

MGK:And it sounds weird if I were to tell you.

CW:Well, please do, I'm curious. (laughter)

MGK:Brains. Even you've heard of that?

CW:How would she prepare them?

MGK:I sort of remember a pot and she would boil them up, I think, and then mash them with something. And I remember they were white and I didn't know for a long 22:00time that that's what it was. (laughs) And when I found out, I was sort of -- Yuck! (laughs) But then, my grandmother also -- and this is a kind of shabesdik [special, lit. "Shabbos-y"] thing -- she would make ptcha [dish made from jellied calves' feet]. And then, many, many, many years later, I would read in English or other novels about calf's foot jelly and I realized, My God, that's what ptcha was. And I never thought of it as -- I don't know about elegant, but as something special. But there it was. And Friday night, we would have it hot, then it would gel up and my grandmother would slice it up on Saturday and we 23:00would have it for lunch or something. And it was pretty good, as a matter of fact.

CW:What did it taste like?

MGK:Hot, it was a little gelatinous but not too much so. A little garlicky but not overpoweringly so. And the kind of meat of it, what would it be comparable -- I don't know, but it was a little, again, gelatinous but a little more solidly so, but really tasty. And then, I guess another English equivalent would 24:00be aspic, 'cause that's really what it was, was like Jell-O, in a sense.

CW:Wow, yummy. (laughter)

MGK:Well, (laughs) it wasn't made every Shabbos. It was sort of a treat when she made it.

CW:Yeah. Well, and what language or languages were in the air when you were growing up?

MGK:Again -- well, my mother spoke, because she went through high school, spoke without an accent. My father spoke English with an accent because my 25:00grandparents, as I say, were in and out -- living, actually, with us some of the time. There was a lot of Yiddish, because at a relatively early age, I got to speak Yiddish. My parents would speak Russian to each other if it was something they didn't want us to understand, me to understand. So, those were the languages, really. And I spoke Yiddish, actually, before I spoke English.

CW:So, your parents spoke Yiddish with you?

MGK:Yeah, well, I guess it was probably more because of my grandparents and my 26:00grandmother that I learned Yiddish because that was what -- and they both spoke English but -- and my grandmother somewhat more than my grandfather, but heavily accented and more comfortable in Yiddish. But I remember and it's probably more a visual memory than anything else. But I have this picture in my head of sitting in the driveway between our house and the house next door with the little girl from next door, and we're both on the ground playing with a doll or 27:00with a -- I don't know, with something. And probably couldn't have been more than maybe four years old, I think. Pre-school. And I was jabbering away in Yiddish and she didn't know what I was saying and I didn't know what she was saying. But somehow, like children, we managed to understand each other and we would play part of every day together.

CW:And you went to the folkshule [Yiddish secular school]?

MGK:That came later, yeah. My father was instrumental in helping to establish a Workmen's Circle Yiddish Folkshule, Sholem Aleichem Folkshule. That was after they 28:00had someone come to the house as a tutor, I guess, to teach me. I was the oldest of the three of us, so I think this must have been maybe when I was, I don't know, eight, nine, 'cause I think by the time I was ten or certainly eleven, the folkshule was just getting organized. But there was this -- at the time, I thought he was an old man. I think, maybe, (laughs) in fact, he was a graduate student or something else because I remember the pink cheeks. And his name was 29:00Mr. Melamed. And it was some long time afterwards that I realized "Melamed," that's melamed [Jewish teacher in a traditional school]. (laughs) So, whether the name fit what he was doing or -- I mean, I don't know. I just know that we called him Mr. Melamed. And he came and that's where I learned to read, to write --

CW:Yiddish?

MGK:-- Yiddish, in a more structured -- I was going to say academic but, no, where I learned grammar and as -- and I learned through Sholem Aleichem. And 30:00Motl Payse and I were best friends. (laughs) And I followed him all the way through to America. And what's his brother, Piklas -- whatever his brother's name was and all the mischief he got into. I mean, this is all very personal to me at the time.

CW:So, you connected with Sholem Aleichem's literature, was --

MGK:Oh, totally, totally. And it was the humor of it. And as a child, being able to connect to this child and all his mischievousness -- so, I mean, it was great. And in the process, as I say, I learned to write. And there was something 31:00about the rhythm of the language that stayed with me to the point where, at one time, as an adult, I wanted to go back and do something with Yiddish. And one of the assignments given to us was to use each word in vocabulary list that we had, maybe there were half a dozen words, in sentences. And so, somehow, I used most of the words in one compound, complex sentence. And the woman who was teaching 32:00us or trying to teach us, in reading my sentence said, "Somehow, this has a little bit of the flavor of Sholem Aleichem." You know, and I was absolutely astounded. But then, I realiz-- it's the rhythm. There's a very definite rhythm to his language and that got so ingrained in my consciousness and my unconscious. Now, I don't know that it probably is still a part of me, I don't know. But I remember that it was very powerful stuff and fun, so --

CW:And was literature a topic of conversation in your house? What would you talk about?

MGK:My father used to say that we might not have money for a lot of things but there would always be money for books. And he, with whatever free time he had, would often go to particularly second-hand bookstores and buy books. I remember, again, as a child growing up with "The Book of Knowledge" and Saturday mornings, lying in bed, waking up early, and going to pick one of the books and kind of going through. So, there were always books. My father also -- oh, newspapers. Of 34:00course, we had the "Forverts." It was also at a time when there was a morning paper, an afternoon paper, evening paper. So, we would get the "Boston Post" in the morning, we would get the "Traveler" in the afternoon. He would also bring home "Christian Science Monitor." I don't remember what other newspapers, magazines. He had a kind of restaurant, delicatessen across from MIT, on Mass. Avenue. And so, there were a lot of magazines that came into the store that 35:00people -- and his clientele were professors and students. So, he would bring home "Atlantic Monthly," "Harper's Magazine." When we went to clear out my mother's house, up in the attic, there were stacks of magazines. So, there was always reading stuff in the house.

CW:You mentioned your father got in trouble with his involvement with the Bund. Was there any political bent in the family? Was it discussed?

MGK:Strong Labor Zionist focus. And both my mother and father were active in 36:00Labor Zionist organizations. There was the New England -- something of the Histadrut. And there was a ladies' auxiliary, and my mother and another woman alternated the chairladyship of that organization. And my father was active in a men's group. I remember as, again, maybe I was nine or ten years old going out with that blue and white National Fund box, feeling very grown-up and very, very 37:00proud to go climb stairs to people's homes, asking them to donate to the Jewish National Fund. There's a fleeting thought that just fleeted out. (laughs) Oh, yeah, my father also was part of a group called the Yidish Kultur Klub. And again, it was a group of men who got together, I think it was maybe something like once a month on a Sunday morning, usually in the Dorchester, Mattapan area. We lived in Malden, so it was a little bit of a shlep. And sometimes, my father 38:00would take me with him. This maybe was when I was twelve, thirteen years old, maybe. So, that's how I know at least what those meetings were like. They were all held in Yiddish, of course. And they usually had some well-known Yiddish journalist, writer.

CW:I think you mentioned Hayim Greenberg?

MGK:Hayim Greenberg. He was the editor -- I think there was a journal called "Tsukunft," right? Now, whether he was the editor of that or another, I really don't remember. But there were people of that sort who would come. How many men 39:00showed up? I don't know. But I would guess it was somewhere around twenty. I mean, it wasn't a small group, it wasn't a huge group. And they would meet in the Workmen's Circle center in Dorchester or Roxbury, someplace on Blue Hill Avenue. And I was probably the only young one there. And why my father thought to take me, why I wanted to go, I really don't know. I've wondered about it the occasional times when I've even thought to think about it. But I think it's a wonderful thing to have happened and I think it said something about my 40:00relationship with my father or his feeling, I think, about the importance of making sure that the younger generation somehow got something of this. And I think that's what motivated him to start the folkshule, what motivated him to help start the summer camp -- the notion that the future was with our generation.

CW:Well, I want to go to camp in one second. But first, I want to ask you about -- you mentioned that you used to go to the Yiddish theater with your bobe [grandmother]?

MGK:With my bobe. (laughs)

CW:What do you remember about those times?

MGK:I remember "Abie's Irish Rose" and the pathos of the struggle of this young couple where she was Irish (laughs) and he was Jewish and neither family was happy about it. And the audience was Jewish, all of this was in Yiddish. And it 42:00was at a time when the thrust for so many was to become Americanized. And one of the unintended consequences, in a way, had to do with -- it's not being part of a shtetl, that you go out into the larger community, you meet people who aren't Jewish, fall in love with someone who isn't Jewish. So, there was all of that. And then, I remember Maurice Schwartz, who was the great Yiddish actor. And the one play I remember, as I say, was "Yoshe Kalb" and the histrionics. I mean, it 43:00wasn't like (laughs) American theater. It was very high-handed with heroic gestures, loud, booming voices, on a very, very large, dramatic scale. And then, I think I remember a musical with Molly Picon and Menasha Skulnik. A lot of it I couldn't get because it was very fast and a lot of it kind of went over my head anyhow. Some of the allusions, I was just too young. But it was a very different 44:00kind of theater from the kind of theater I later became familiar with.

CW:Now, was the theater in Malden or did you --

MGK:I remember "Abie's Irish Rose" was in Malden. I remember walking with my grandmother after my embarrassing time with her and a candy. But I think the other two were probably in Dorchester or Mattapan, where there was a much larger Jewish population.

CW:So, what's the story with the candy?

MGK:My grandmother always had kind of penny candy things in her pocket. And she 45:00was always giving us one or another. And my favorite was this sort of garishly pink candy with the peanut butter in the middle. And she seemed to have a limitless supply. And on the way to the theater, we stopped at -- think it was Woolworth's, or Grants, at one of these big stores. And I saw my grandmother put her hand into open candy bins and take out candy, put it in her pocket. And I 46:00said, "Bobe, what are you doing? You can't do that!" So, she said, "Far vos nit? Why not?" So, I said, "Because you have to pay for it." "No, no, no," she said, "if they wanted me to" -- this in Yiddish, she said, "They wanted me to pay for it, they would have had closed bins. But it's open." (laughs) She said, "If it's open, it means I can take from it." So, I said, "Bobe, that's not the way it works." (laughs) So, she said, "But they don't close it." So, (laughs) somehow, I have to confess, it didn't stop me. I wouldn't have any that day, but it didn't stop me after that from having it. But the closest thing that ever came 47:00to that later in my life was, I think, in the early '70s with the flower children. One Friday night, at dinner, we got a phone call from friends in Ithaca whose son was a student at Brandeis, saying that their son had been picked up by the police because he had been caught taking a CD or phonograph records out of the Coop in Harvard Square. And Josh was a lawyer. So, anyhow, left to spring this kid from the police. And his argument was, "Well, they're 48:00there (laughs) for people to enjoy," and why shouldn't he be able to -- so, I thought of my bobe. (laughs) Said, "That's not the way it works." (laughs) So, I guess there's something of that thought process that crosses generations or something.

CW:Looking back at this rich time of the literature -- oh, do you want to say something?

MGK:Yeah, I have some recollection, going back to Mr. Melamed, that my brother sat in and was tutored by him. There was about a year-and-a-half difference 49:00between my brother and me, and then maybe another year-and-a-half or two years between him and my sister. There's three-and-a-half years between my sister and me. And I somehow don't remember her. She was younger. Nor do I remember them going to the folkshule because I remember vividly coming home by myself. And the classes were after school, so, in the winter, I'd come home and it would be dark. And this was in the -- maybe '33, '34 and towards -- as I got closer to 50:00the house, I would hurry a little faster. And I wasn't exactly the bravest kid in the world. And it was Roosevelt era and I remember muttering to myself, "I've got nothing to fear but fear itself. I've got nothing to fear but fear itself. I've got nothing to fear but fear itself," and then make a dash across the street to the house. But I don't remember -- and my brother, of course, was killed in World War II. And I don't know whether my sister would have a different memory, but I really don't remember either of them going to the folkshule. And I think my brother did go to the camp. My sister stayed with my mother at the adult part of the camp. So, my recollection is that I got more of 51:00the Yiddish infusion (laughs) than my brother or sister did, at that time, anyhow.

CW:Can you tell me a little bit about camp? What was a typical day at camp?

MGK:Some parts of it were like any kids' summer camp. What was significantly different was that we would have -- and again, it's a visual memory -- sitting under a tree with one of the counselors, the bunk, and reading about Eugene 52:00Victor Debs. And again, I was ten, eleven, twelve. Maybe I was there from maybe eleven to thirteen or fourteen. Maybe fourteen. So, we would learn about Debs, we would look forward to Norman Thomas once a summer, to the groyse [big] outing -- what was it called -- aroysfor [outing]. There were outings every Sunday. The different Workmen's Circle chapters would have outings. But once, during the 53:00summer, there was the big outing when all the branches would come together and Norman Thomas would be the speaker. So, there was the preparation for that. I don't have any recollection of Yiddish being prominent. I don't have any recollection of Friday night being special, of candles being lit. Now, whether it did happen and I don't remember -- but I don't have any visual memory of that, but very definitely of these study sessions and learning about socialism 54:00and the plight of the worker. And we would put on performances, particularly at this big outing. And often, there would be at least some piece of it that would be in Yiddish. And sometimes, it might be a poem. I remember there was an anti-war poem, something about, "In Flanders field, the poppies grow," and I don't remember the rest of it. This was World War I, of course. We did a Clifford Odets play, that was "Bury the Dead." And I was trying to think of the 55:00name and we couldn't get it and now it just came to me. Also did this Yiddish version of Oscar Wilde's "Birthday of the Infanta," which, when you think of it, is sort of wild. (laughter) Well, Oscar Wilde, but (laughter) crazy. And I usually had the leading part because I could read the Yiddish. And in this particular one, I was the princess in the thing. So, I do have that picture someplace in that -- and I couldn't have been more than twelve years old, if that. And then, I would give the speech to Norman Thomas, "In nomen fun ale 56:00yidishe kinder [On behalf of all the Jewish children]." (laughs) And I would tell him how grateful we were to him and if only we could vote for him and all of that. So, I got patted on the head once a year. (laughter) Camp was really a transformative experience for me in many, many ways, 'cause I really was a very shy kid. And here, and I think it was largely because of Yiddish and these performance things that -- made a huge difference to me. And I think, when I 57:00think of these, my father's generation, what this meant to them and what they were trying to do, from nothing -- I mean, how they bought this property -- and I don't know, it was in Ashland, which, at that time, especially coming from Malden, it was kind of ek velt, it was the end of the Earth. And all there was on the property, I think, was this big house, which became the adult place where my mother and my sister and, for a year or two, my brother stayed. But they built these log cabins for kids. There wasn't a lake nearby and they built this 58:00pool of water so that we could have swimming. I mean, there were fields and somehow, they made a tennis court of sorts. Grass. (laughs) And the same with baseball, softball, whatever it was. From nothing. And they did it all themselves. My father, because of his experience in the restaurant deli was in charge of organizing the kitchen in this place, the -- as I recall, some of the campers were kids of the people who were involved. Where they got other kids 59:00from, I don't know. But they were always full-up.

CW:I hear there were thousands, at a certain point, of people.

MGK:It was amazing, as I think back on it, what these people accomplished.

CW:If you had him here right now and asked him what his motivation was to do this -- so, what do you think he would say?

MGK:I think they were concerned about perpetuating, passing on, making sure that there was a continuation of Yiddishkayt, however it got defined, experienced.

CW:What were the values that you felt that were important to your father and --

MGK:Learning, for one thing. Zionism. Socialism, for sure. I remember asking him once the difference between socialism and communism. And he would say, "Well" -- and I'm sure it was simplistic, but as a child that's probably what I could possibly begin to understand -- and say, "Socialism is a belief in evolution and 61:00communism is a belief in revolution. And evolution means things take longer to develop but they're stronger, so that -- and revolution is different." So, I think there was that. (pause) I don't know whether really early on, he felt committed to Palestine as a home for the Jews. The need for a home for the Jews, 62:00I think, it was a given for him. But I remember he told me that there had been talk about Birobidzhan and other places. But my memory was always that it was Palestine and that was an important focus for a lot of his activity.

CW:I'd like to hear a little bit about Malden in the '30s and early '40s. The main road is Route 60, is that right? The main road in Malden, what --

MGK:Right, yeah.

CW:And what did the community look like and what do you remember?

MGK:The Jewish center for Malden was in Suffolk Square. That's where the shuls were, there was the rusishe [Russian] shul and the litvisher [Lithuanian] shul and this street shul and there's the other street shul. There were probably about three shuls and then there was a temple, but that came later. That was the one we didn't go to. And of course, when we went to shul, it was the rusishe shul. It was where the folkshule was when it existed, where Finn's Drug Store was, where Alter's delicatessen was, where Leshner's grocery store was, where 64:00Azoff's Bakery was. Forget the name of the fish store. Glick's meat market. That's where all the Jewish stores were. That's not where we lived, which is why there was that sort of, for me, as a child, long-ish walk from Suffolk Square to where we lived. We were the only house. It was a two-family house, the only Jewish house on the street. That's why this little next-door neighbor girl -- there was the west side of Malden that was probably a little closer to Route 60 or off Route 60 that was a little more affluent, certainly a whole lot more 65:00affluent than Suffolk Square. Suffolk Square was where there were three-decker houses and it was just more shtetl-like, in a way, because it was a very cohesive community. So, on the other side were -- and the people that I knew there were more affluent. Some of the fathers had stores in Malden Square, 66:00furniture store. One had another kind of business. But everyone came together in the high school. Might have gone to different elementary schools and junior high schools. Didn't have middle schools then. But there was one Malden High School, so we came together there. We tended to know each other through the high school as -- again, I think it started even in elementary school, my activity in 67:00Zionist organizations where I was a young Poale Zion bud. (laughs) I don't know that we conceived of ourselves as flowers, but we were young Poale Zion buds. And we had a leader and we met -- I think it was once a week. And I have some recollection of singing and dancing and I don't know that we did much more. Some sort of talk. And that was just the beginning. And then, we had a Young Judea 68:00club, I think, and then a Habonim group where we came together. And all of that was in Malden. So, there was that kind of activity that sort of crossed the geographic boundary somehow and that got translated later into college with Zionist collegiate activity.

CW:So, going into college and your career, what were the -- I mean, looking back now, what did you take with you from this Yiddish-infused, to use your term, world into your adult life? Where do you see the threads of connection?

MGK:Well, I think certainly, in my college years, it came through my activity in the organization, Avukah, which was a collegiate Zionist organization that was, for its day, probably quite left-wing. We were part of, though not really part of, the larger Zionist Organization of America. They did not approve of us, and 70:00I think some of the closest personal relationships I've had that continue to this day come from that organization, which believed in democracy, not only within -- and it was still Palestine in those days -- but democracy here and anti-fascism and all of that. This was the early '40s. And it was really an extension of what I had been involved in all of my life up to that point. And I 71:00think to this day, it informs my attitudes towards Israel, as well as life here. I have not transmitted the Yiddish part of my life to my kids because, I think, as they grew up, Israel existed. And Hebrew, I never learned Hebrew. And for 72:00them, Hebrew was the connection, particularly since my sister and her family have lived in Israel since 1957. But there's still that connection and involvement, as well as the connection through Hebrew school, having had bat mitzvahs and all of that. So, I mean, the specific content has been different 73:00but I think the emotional aspects are somehow there.

CW:Yeah, I'd like to ask about language and identity, both, I mean, thinking back to what you're talking about at camp, speaking Yiddish, and then, also, the importance of Hebrew for your children. What role, in your experience, has language played in your Jewish identity and that of your kids?

MGK:Well, I think, for me, there's no question but that Yiddish has been paramount. And there's still, as I said before, words, Yiddish words, that are 74:00untranslatable. I was talking to Rachel just yesterday, I think, about the word "makhuteneste." There's no way without talking in sentences, if not a paragraph, to explain what a makhuteneste is.

CW:Can you just explain what that word means for --

MGK:A makhuteneste is the mother of your son or daughter's spouse, (laughter) and your 75:00mekhutonim are the parents of your son or daughter's spouse. So, there's the mekhutn who's the male and the makhuteneste who's the woman. And together, they're the mekhutonim. (laughs) But it has a flavor that those words simply don't convey. It's hard to describe.

CW:When do you find yourself using Yiddish words now?

MGK:I don't know.

CW:Do you have any favorite proverbs that came to you through Yiddish by any chance?

MGK:Well, one that my bobe used to say when something would go wrong, bad, she'd say, "Nu, un ale shlimazl zol hobn a bisl mazl [Well, every unlucky person should have a bit of luck]." And you can play with it in English, too, that in all bad luck, still there's luck. (laughs) What I get impressed with -- and, again, just the other day, in reading in "The New York Times" a review of -- I 77:00think it was a book, that the use of Yiddish words in English, in "The New York Times" review of -- oh, I don't remember now the name of the book. But it talked about the tzimmes of the intergenerational something or other. Now, I've seen other Yiddish words used in other places. We're all accustomed to "shlepping" and "meshugas" and all kinds of words like that, but I'd never seen "tzimmes." 78:00And yet, what that conjures up is exactly the right word. And if you were to say "stew," it wouldn't be the same. "Tzimmes" was the right word. But I wondered how many people would, reading "The New York Times" -- maybe it was the Sunday arts section. I mean, it just sort of leaped up, so unexpectedly -- so there are many ways, Yiddish has become almost not quite a national language, but certainly so many words have become part of one's usual vocabulary.

CW:Well, we haven't talked at all about your career, but I'd like to ask one specific question about -- I mean, your involvement in social work and the 79:00Jewish organizations that you were involved in, both on the board or working there. What was important to you about being involved in a professional way with Jewish organizations?

MGK:In large part, I think it had to do with what the organization was trying to accomplish, their mission, also because it felt very comfortable. Also, because 80:00it just happened. It's not that I sought out to work in Jewish organizations. It happened in the way one thing leads to another, even in unexpected ways. But what started me was when I began, after graduating from college, when I began to very unexpectedly -- to work at Hillel, when it first began in Boston.

CW:Why was that unexpected? Why was it unexpected?

MGK:Because when I read that Hillel was coming to Boston, I was interested in 81:00getting in touch with Judith Shapiro, who was coming from Cornell to start Hillel in the Boston area because of my involvement with Avukah. And Hillel, at that time, was totally funded by B'nai B'rith, which, at best, was non-Zionist in those days and, at worst, was anti-Zionist. And as I say, they had all the money and Avukah was at the point -- it was 1943, wartime, many of the guys had gone -- who had graduated from college went into the Army, the Navy, whatever. 82:00And to see this organization come in, I just sort of wanted to get a sense. And so, I made an appointment to meet with him and to let him know that we were still there. And it turned out that he was understanding, accepting. He, himself, was a Zionist and just not at all like some of the other Hillel directors that we had gotten to know or know about. And anyhow, it ended up that I was coopted (laughs) and I ended up working with him for the two years before I went to graduate school. And then, when I graduated, he was instrumental in my 83:00coming back as associate director at Harvard Hillel. And so, that led me on -- I then didn't work for a number of years while the children were young. Then, when I decided that I really wanted to, needed to go back to work, I went to some Columbia alumni reunion thing and was approached by a former student, colleague of mine who was assistant or associate director of the JCC in Boston. He asked me what I was doing. When I said I was hoping to find some work, I began to work 84:00very part-time at the JCC. Through that, when I reported myself out of a job because I was the first golden age worker -- and expanded that job to the point where they needed a full-time person, I wasn't ready to work full-time yet. But my last responsibility was to do an in-service training thing for the twenty or so club leaders. (laughs) And despite reservations and cluckings of, "No, he'll never do it," I had read that the newly established Heller School at Brandeis had gotten a large grant of money from the administration on aging and that this 85:00Dr. Robert Morris was the principal investigator. And so, as I say, despite their saying that he'd never come, I called and, to my amazement, he turned out to be Jewish and said that -- he was so glad that I had called, that he'd been looking for a way to connect with the Jewish community but had been busy doing -- so, he came and did a great job. So, I went out, (laughs) having done a very good job. And then, a year later, they got another grant of money at the Heller School for a research demonstration study and he remembered me but he didn't remember my name. He got in touch with someone who did know me. Anyhow, that's how I got to Brandeis, where I was for twenty-three, twenty-four years. And 86:00after eleven years, I think, at the Heller School, I moved over to the [Lyon?] School and the Hornstein program. So, that was the progression. As I say, it wasn't planned that way. It just happened that way and I'm very glad that it did. (laughs)

CW:Yeah, and --

MGK:And all of my Jewish parts came together in all of these places.

CW:-- I'm thinking about being a mother. You talked about Hebrew being something that was important and a connection for your children. Were there any decisions that you made consciously about the environment you wanted your children -- the 87:00Jewish community wanted your children to grow up in? I know you switched shuls, for example. What was important?

MGK:Josh came from a home where -- I mean, he never had a bar mitzvah, for example. He may have gone to Hebrew school for a year at the old Adams Street shul in Newton. But that was never an important part of his home life. His parents were also Workmen's Circle, but they were very left-wing. If not communist, then pretty close to it. So, that was the kind of environment that he 88:00grew up in. But again, like my father, he was respectful of my mother's way of doing things when we were at her house. I did not keep a strictly kosher house. I used only kosher meat, mostly. (laughs) My kids would bring me up, take me up on that. But we were together on wanting the kids to have some kind of Jewish 89:00background. And when it came time to think about Hebrew school, we decided against Temple Reyim, which we belonged to at that time because, as it turned out, what I had thought was the West Newton Jewish community center that I read about when we first moved to Newton and joined as a way of connecting with what I wanted to be a Jewish community -- anyhow, it turned out that that was the nucleus for the formation of Temple Reyim. And we moved to Newton when David was 90:00an infant, so I'm talking about really early, early years when Hebrew school wasn't even any part of our consciousness. But then, when it did come up, we decided on Temple Emanuel because that had the reputation for being the best Hebrew school. And our feeling was that if we were going to give the kids a Jewish education, let it be the best, the most stringent that we could find short of Orthodox. (laughter) And then, if they rebelled against it or if they 91:00loved it, that would be their choice. But at least they would have something, rather than nothing or very little. So, that was a very conscious choice on our part. And so, they all went through Temple Emanuel Hebrew school and the fact of the matter is, you know, David and Janey had belonged to the Harvard Worship and Study Minyan. Karen and Craig, my daughter and son-in-law, who is not Jewish but 92:00in many ways is more Jewishly knowledgeable than many who were born Jewish, belonged to some kind of synagogue or temple in the DC area. And Daniel and Alison belong to a Reform temple in the Deerfield area outside of Chicago where they live. All the grandchildren except for Michael -- and he would have been, 93:00had they remained in Chicago, but they moved to DC added to just -- the year that all the plans had been made for a bar mitzvah and it didn't happen in DC. But they've all gone through some kind of Hebrew school, bar/bat mitzvah thing and they're doing different things with it (UNCLEAR), not very much, although I think, their feelings are positive. Eric, who's fifteen, is still doing tutoring or mentoring at the Hebrew school where he went. Rachel, of course, Dalia, less 94:00so. It varies. But at least all of them have had a foundation. And as parents, that's all you can do.

CW:Well, we just have a few more minutes. I'd like to ask if you have any closing advice that you would like to give after talking about your children and grandchildren. But specifically, about this idea of Jewish culture and all that we've been talking about here today, if there's anything, any eytses [pieces of advice] that you have for the next generations?

MGK:I don't know. I just know what's important to me. I think what's important 95:00to me is the feeling of connection that I have with other Jews wherever they are, whoever they are, and a sense of being part of a continuum of history that goes way, way back and that with all its ups and downs, irregularities, 96:00perversions, conversions, and all of that, still has something important to say to the world. And perhaps it's not a politically correct thing to say, I don't know, but I sometimes say to myself that if I weren't born Jewish, I would want to be Jewish. It's so much more interesting. Because if you're not Jewish, there aren't so many things that you really have to think about, worry about, get 97:00yourself involved with, and it's just so much richer (laughs) to have these concerns and involvements.

CW:Oops, just --

MGK:I don't know, maybe it sounds crazy, but --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Well, I'd just like to start where you were talking about the continuum and the idea that if you weren't born Jewish, you might want to --

MGK:I have to repeat it? (laughter)

CW:Well, just from that part because we lost the second sentence there. So, can you start, "If I" -- you were saying --

MGK:Oh, if I weren't born Jewish --

CW:-- that you --

MGK:-- I would want to be Jewish because not being Jewish, you don't have so 98:00many things that you have to think about, worry about, get involved with, and that being Jewish, I feel that I have to be involved with the world. I have to be concerned about all kinds of things, that my life is richer as a result, more complicated, maybe, more upsetting at some times. But there's a feeling of connectedness that's hard to describe but that's very fully felt.

CW:It's wonderful -- is there anything else you'd like to add? Any other stories you wanted to be sure to tell today?

MGK:What, dear?

CW:Any other stories that you wanted to be sure to tell?

MGK:At this point, I think I've talked a lot, yeah. (laughter)

CW:Well, it's been really wonderful and I really want to thank you for coming out here and taking the time --

MGK:Oh, it's been a wonderful day. (laughs)

CW:It's wonderful. A hartsikn dank [Thank you very much]. (laughs)

MGK:And so glad finally to have met you because I've heard so much about you from Janey.

CW:(laughs) Thanks. Okay.

[END OF INTERVIEW]