GHITA WOLPOWITZ ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney, and today is April 22nd, 2012. I am here in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Ghita Wolpowitz, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Ghita, do I have your permission to record this interview?

GHITA WOLPOWITZ: Yes, you do.

CW:Thank you. So, as a place to start, can you tell me what you know about your family background, where they came from?

GW:I can tell you back probably two generations, definitely one. On my maternal side, my grandparents lived in Lithuania, in a town called Laukuva. They were 1:00considered to be -- they were landowners. They owned a mill, with fruit trees and a pond, with fish and geese and -- it sounded like a wonderful setup. So, they were considered to be above the level of -- I don't know how to say -- well-off. They were considered to be well-off --

CW:Hold on one sec.

GW:-- in this little town.

CW:I just want to -- there we go. Okay.

GW:I remember my mother telling me that they were the first family in the town to get the telephone and electricity. So, in many ways, they were leaders in 2:00this small community. It was not a shtetl [small Eastern European town with a Jewish community]. And they were very mindful of being Jewish. Her father -- at one point, the mill had a fire, and he had to go to the bank -- probably Lithuanians -- to raise money to rebuild. And he was in such good standing that he got what he asked for. And he was very proud of that. They were an established Lithuanian family. They had been there for generations, as far as I can tell. I never had the privilege of meeting them. They stayed at a time when -- they made a decision to stay when they could, maybe should have left, and the 3:00results are like we know. Apparently, my grandfather was shot by a neighbor, and my grandmother was taken to the Kovno Ghetto, because that's the biggest city near them. And she was taken into a forest and shot in the forest. So, I never got to meet them.

CW:How did you learn about this? Through your mother?

GW:Through my mother. Through my mother. And I wrote down a lot of what she told me. In fact, when she was a month away from turning ninety, my niece got married in California, in Los Angeles, and all the family -- great-grandparents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren -- were at this 4:00weekend function. My mother had -- wasn't very well. We had arranged a surprise birthday party for her the day after the wedding, but four hours before the wedding, she died. So, (cries) -- ooh -- it didn't -- it didn't happen with her there, but I had prepared a slide presentation in celebration of her life, with her story, and that's -- a lot of the information's in that -- from her, and I think from cousins that filled in where I wasn't sure.

CW:And how old was your mother when she left?

GW:She left -- I think she was twenty-one. She was the seventh child. She had 5:00six brothers. And she was in Kovno, at medical school -- she was in second year of medical school. Three of her brothers had left Lithuania in the '30s to go to South Africa for the reasons that everybody -- these young men all left. They didn't want to be conscripted in the army and they were looking for a better life. So, two of her brothers decided, in 1938, in September, at Rosh Hashanah -- one would come to Laukuva and Kovno to invite her to come back with them -- with him, and then in 1939, Passover, the other would bring her back, so she'd have a six-month hiatus from living in Lithuania and see their life in South Africa. They had a visa for her -- and this is kind of significant -- her father 6:00gave approval, 'cause that's how it worked, and she left them thinking that she was gonna see them again in six months' time. It never happened. During that time the war started, and she never went back. Her brother didn't want to go back to take her, either -- for fear of being grabbed into the army. So, she never went back, and she never saw them again. And that was her package to deal with in her life. She also could not stay in South Africa, because her visa was expired, and because she was a foreigner, she either had to go home or leave -- she just had to leave. And her brothers knew a Jewish woman in this town in 7:00Bulawayo, in Rhodesia, where there was a big Litvak community -- probably had been there for close on forty to fifty years already. And so, they sent her to stay with this Jewish family in Bulawayo. And two years later, she married my father; she met him there. And the rest is history. (laughs)

CW:So, backing up for a minute --

GW:Yeah.

CW:-- do you know how your -- how people in Lithuania found out about --

GW:Africa?

CW:-- the possibility of getting to South Africa? Or --

GW:You know, I don't know exactly how, but I know on my father's side, it's the same -- a similar situation. I think that the Jews were all looking -- there was 8:00this unrest and the beginning of the twentieth century -- World War I and the effects of that -- they were looking for places to go. There was the huge immigration to America. So, the way I visualize it is that instead of going north -- taking the road north -- they took the road south. South Africa was wide open, especially to men who were prepared to be salesmen, general store owners, traveling -- travelers, entrepreneurs -- not really -- there weren't too many professionals that I'm aware of. The next generation became the professionals, and then their children, and so on. So, they were just looking 9:00for opportunities and for security.

CW:And were there any stories or descriptions that your mother told that -- about her life in Lite [Lithuania] that are particularly memorable or meaningful to you?

GW:Lots. There were a lot. But they all were in connection were her life, not really with anything to do with Vilna or Å iauliai or Shavl or Memel. So, she grew up on this farm -- it was like a farm -- and I've actually seen it and walked in the house. The mill is not there anymore, but -- she always loved lilacs -- lilac trees and the lilac flowers, because she said she had a lilac 10:00tree outside her window, and she loved when it bloomed in spring, with the smell and the --- so, there were apple trees in their yard, where they would climb -- the kids would climb when they were in trouble, and hide in the apple trees. There were also blueberry bushes, and they used to be sent into the forest -- blueberries grow there in the forests, wild, in multitudes of -- in numbers. And they used to go and pick blueberries with -- but they were told not to eat them, but they always ate them, and, you know, they were blue all over, so they were -- they couldn't get away with that. Her father was a very cultured man. With 11:00the six boys, before he sent them to get their education, he hired tutors to educate them at home. And the boys were very mischievous, and gave these tutors a hard time. So, she talked about that. She talked about preparing the geese for the holidays -- for the meals -- and how they used to stuff food down the goose's throat to plump it up, and then afterwards they used the feathers for their pillows and blankets. Her mother had one helper who used to help her prepare food. And they stored everything in the cellar; there was no refrigeration. But they had this cold cellar, and they would prepare food and 12:00store it down there for the winter and for the holidays. She herself used to walk into the little town for music lessons; she used to take music lessons. And her father -- there was -- I think it was in 1924, a gymnasium opened in Yavne for girls only, for a religious education for girls. And her father sent her there. So, she left home when she was about twelve. And she said that at the time, she always resented being in that very controlled -- she called it almost narrow -- environment, where she would argue points of science with her teachers 13:00and be reprimanded. But she got a most phenomenal grounding in Hebrew language and Judaic study, of Talmud and Torah, that she kvelled with -- you know, once she came to womanhood and motherhood, and then a grandmother and a great-grandmother. She really appreciated it in retrospect. Something else that she told me was that the ride to and from this yeshiva, she was entrusted to their one -- they had a Lithuanian handyman worker who lived on the farm, and his name was Yusup, and he would drive the little horse carriage. I see it in 14:00Russ-- almost like a -- was it a troika? A drashe? No.

CW:Droshke?

GW:Droshke? These little carts that the horse pulled that were low on the ground. She used to be taken to school in this, covered with furs and wraps and (laughs) -- 'cause it was so cold. And she was -- it was pretty lonely for her, I think, being the only girl. But she said that she -- she always questioned why she was the survivor. Of the nine members of her family, she was the one who lived the longest and survived the longest. And she came up with an answer that -- it was because when she was born and growing up, in the environment that she 15:00lived in, she was loved so much by everybody, and she -- and I see that. Since she died, I went to Lithuania, and I met with probably a third cousin, whose mother was my mother's first cousin, or second cousin? Oh. I've got all this at home. What the setup was on the mill was, my mother's father's brother married his wife's sister, and the two couples lived next door to each other and worked together in the mill. And so, this cousin -- this distant cousin that I met in 16:00Lithuania -- was the son of the -- one of the survivors of the family next door. She survived in Lithuania. She hid in a haystack. And she actually was the last person to see my grandmother alive. She'd went with her into the forest, but she ran away. My grandmother couldn't; she was too old, and so she died. Her name is Dora, and Dora gave testimony to the Steven Spielberg project in Lithuanian. I listened to that, and I had it translated into English, but it's often too painful to listen. But she mentions my mother. And at the end of her testimony, 17:00there's a photograph of her with my mother as young girls. And so, I can see how they had a loving, close family around them. And then, my mother also spoke about -- on the yontoyvim [holidays] -- on yontoyvim, her mother would pack a basket of produce from the farm and send my mother on these little trips to family in Plungian and Memel to share goodies with them. So, there was -- they were an established, close-knit family that she came from. And it's just sad --

CW:Yeah.

GW:-- you know?

CW:So, can you tell me a little bit about your growing up in --

GW:Can I tell you about my father?

CW:Oh, sure.

GW:Before --

CW:Sure.

GW:-- before we --

CW:Absolutely.

GW:-- get to that?

CW:Yeah.

GW:My father -- my father's line is rabbinical. Also many generations established in Lithuania, from what I understand. His father was a very well-thought-of and well-known rabbi -- a rosh yeshive [head of yeshiva] -- in Lithuania. He left Lithuania in 1929 -- 1927 to go to take up a position as a rosh yeshive in Jerusalem, at an orphanage in Jerusalem. I don't remember the name. It's a beautiful, beautiful estab-- building. And then, his wife followed about five years later, with their youngest daughter, who we were all very close 19:00to in Israel. And her children and my siblings and our children and grandchildren are very close. My father, however, did not want to continue in the rabbinical line, and he was not -- he was quite open about it with his family. The way he got to Africa was, he was invited to join his -- one of his -- oldest sister -- he also, I think, had eight siblings -- seven siblings -- only four of whom survived, before the war -- the Holocaust. So, one of his sisters -- his oldest sister married a man whose brother had already gone to 20:00South Africa. And the brother invited my aunt and her husband to come join him. And there were cousins of the family who were also there. And they took my father -- sponsored my father and sent for him to come and join them. And he went. He went at the beginning, probably in -- when his father went to Israel, in 19-- my father probably left in 1929 to go to South Africa. He was one of these traveling salesmen in South Africa. And then, I think, his brother-in-law's family decided to establish -- in British language, it's a 21:00sweet factory, a candy factory. And they established one in South Africa. And my father and his sister and brother-in-law went to Bulawayo to establish one. And so, he was already there when my mother arrived. And it was a very formal social scene. And they met. And he courted her very formally. And there were enough people there that had known his family back home that she was -- that came to her, to my mother, because she was alone. She didn't have any counseling or any, you know, references. They told her that if he was interested in her, he came 22:00from a very good family, and it would be a good thing for her to be interested in him. And they finally married. And the business was very successful. He was a very good businessman, and a very smart man. Very dapper, to his last day. But he also had his baggage, you know? He was very conscious of adapting to a new secular environment, and still trying to stay faithful to his history. So, he 23:00juggled with that. But we had a wonderful upbringing. It was a wonderful place.

CW:Before we get to that, did either of your parents talk about the actual journey to --

GW:My mother did. She went with her brother -- you mean to South Afr--

CW:Um-hm.

GW:-- to Africa?

CW:Yeah.

GW:The brother that came to pick her up -- she convinced him, in 1938, that she had to see the zoo in Berlin. So, in 1938, they took the train from -- I think it might have been Vilna or Kovno, I'm not sure. They took the train from Lithuania to Berlin, stayed there a couple of -- one or two nights, she saw the zoo, and then they took a train. They went to London, 'cause he had business to 24:00do in London, and from London, they took another train to Marseilles, where they boarded a boat that traveled with -- they traveled, I suppose, for two-and-a-half weeks on the boat to Cape Town, in South Africa. And she was welcomed there; they had cousins there already. And she had a good time, until -- you know, until things changed. And then, she had to make huge adjustments.

CW:So, can you describe -- maybe starting -- do you know -- I'm just wondering if you could -- to put a little context in this, what you know about the history of the Jewish community in Bulawayo. I know there were several waves of immigration, and at its peak, there were about -- there were over seven thousand Jews in the community in Rhodesia.

GW:Mm.

CW:Can you give us a little overview of what you know?

GW:You know, I can, but it would be more accurate for me to send you documentation that I have.

CW:Sure.

GW:Because it kind of gets a little mixed up for me. I know -- I have somewhere at home the hundredth anniversary of the community, which was probably -- ten years ago? Two thousand and twelve? Maybe 2000 -- twelve years ago? I'm not exactly sure. I know that they were -- what happened was, there was a large influx of Lithuanians -- Litvaks -- but there were also a lot of people who came 26:00from England, because this was a British colony. And the two met and accepted each other and formed a community. And it almost came like -- there were the barons, who were a formidable presence in the community, because they had established -- their grandpar-- great-grandparents had established many aspects of the community. A shul was built almost immediately -- the shul. And they just took off as a Jewish community, and they thrived. They started off as -- in tiny little stores near the railway line at the railway station, because that's where -- there was no river. You know, usually, in a city with a river, that's where 27:00all the development starts, and then it goes outwards. So, this mainly started around the railway station -- and then was built in. Then, you know -- I don't know what else you want to know from -- they were almost like dynasty families -- from the founding fathers. And nobody left. Nobody left until the political situation became unsettled in the '60s. That's when -- or the '50s and '60s, and then you started seeing children leaving and not coming back.

CW:So, can you describe the home that you grew up in?

GW:Yes. I have to say, we grew up in a privileged environment. Eventually, the 28:00way it looked to me -- this was my perspective -- is that as long as we were white, it didn't really matter that we were Jewish. It really -- we were important in the count of white -- in the census of white citizens, because of the political situation. We had a wonderful education -- in school, public schools -- the Hebrew day school did not start till I was already in high school, so I missed that part, but I went to kheyder [traditional religious 29:00school]. And it was a lot of fun. (laughs) I learned a lot at kheyder. I loved -- I love languages, and I loved learning Hebrew. And I'm not sure how it came about, but it did -- that I studied Hebrew and -- for O-level, which was the English external exam, there were two of us: David -- a friend of mine, David, and me. We studied with a rabbi privately. So, there were all sorts of possibilities. We had a rabbi from England when I was growing up there. We had a wonderful -- wonderful traditional services in the shul. We were Orthodox but 30:00Conser-- we were Conservadox in many ways. The women sat upstairs; the men were downstairs. There were no microphones. There was a lot of availability of kosher food. We had a shoykhet [ritual slaughterer]. I remember my mother loading chickens that we kept in our -- we had a very big garden -- chickens that we had in a little coop in the back (laughs) with -- one thing I didn't tell, which I think you know, was that help was very accessible and available, and we had a lot of help in the -- around the house. And one of the helpers worked in the garden, and he would load chickens -- took care of the chickens -- and he would put chickens in the back of the car, and we would drive them down to near the 31:00shul, where the shoykhet would slaughter them. And I remember -- I don't know what my mother was thinking, but I remember seeing these chickens running around without their heads on. And then, they would be brought home in a sack, and then we had a cook who would spend hours defeathering them. Over a methylated spirits flame, sterilizing them and then trying to get all the pieces of feather that were left. It was -- I watched all this. I was an observer. I didn't even remember that I knew all that, (laughs) but -- and so we had a very privileged, safe, safe upbringing, and could ride bicycles anywhere. I used to ride my bicycle to school.

CW:So, what was your relationship with the other people in the community: the other Jewish families, and also the people helping in the house?

GW:The relationship with the people helping in the house was -- for me, it was one of -- they were there. It was the way it was. They didn't live with us; they lived on the property, but in separate quarters, which were in no way at the level of our living. I've discussed this with my brothers, and I felt the same way when I went to my father's factory: I felt uncomfortable being the daughter of the boss, or the daughter of -- the white daughter. There was a level of 33:00discomfort for me. And I didn't know why. It just didn't feel right for me to be me and them to be them. And they were wonderful people. They were kind, they were committed, they were loving. And we were to them, too. And that was the system. My brother -- my one brother felt phenomenal when he walked through the factory. He felt like, you know, this was his place. So, that's -- that's different perspectives. So, I'm giving you my perspective. I had a nanny who was hired before I was even born and survived -- after I was married, she came to 34:00help me with my children, my eldest child. I have a certain feeling of guilt towards her, because I never said goodbye to her, thinking -- I didn't think that when I left home, it was final. And I never, ever thanked her and gave her my -- the love that I felt for her and made it -- you know, communicated it with her. She was fantastic. She was like a surrogate mother. And so, I don't know if that's -- we always felt safe with them. And then, when I married, I lived in South Africa, and by that time, Ian Smith was running the country and there was the unilateral declaration of independence and there were the guerilla -- there 35:00was a guerilla warfare going on. And I was living in South Africa, but I would still go home -- bring one child, then I would bring two children, then I would bring three -- to visit my parents and my friends that were still there. And people would say to me, Aren't you scared to go back? There's a war going on there. And I said, "That's my home. I'm going." And it is what it is. My parents lived there still. And it was okay for me to go back there. But it -- it's conflicting. It's conflicting. In the end, it was a conflict.

CW:So, can you describe a little bit about the shul?

GW:The Jewish community --

CW:The --

GW:-- and the shul?

CW:Yeah. Yeah. It's the Bulawayo Hebrew Congregation? So, what did it, you know, 36:00look like?

GW:Glorious, to me. When I -- you know, it's the -- the burning of the shul was a total tragedy. It's not completely burned down. There's a shell remaining. And it's used now -- it doesn't have a roof -- it's used now by a tabernacle community who meets there. So, the spirituality is still somewhat there. But the shul was European in style. The shul and across the road from the shul was what we called the guild hall, which was a kind of a ramshackle, one-story building, 37:00but -- when I see pictures of it now, but in my -- when I was there growing up, it was where we did our plays and our -- we had bar mitzvahs there and wedding receptions and there were classrooms there. So, it was a very vibrant community. We had Hebrew teachers hired to teach us in the afternoon. Then, as the community developed and the need arose, we built a new -- a multi-story building -- five -- four stories, I think -- next to the shul. And that was for the Jewish kindergarten, and the rooms above, I think, were for kheyder. And then, on two levels -- and then on the top floor was for the Jewish youth movements. 38:00We were all very -- if you wanted to have a social life in the Jewish scene, you belonged to a youth movement. And I belonged to Habonim, which for me was the best. But there was also Betar and Bnei Akiva eventually. And that was -- through that, we learned Israeli dancing, we learned Israeli songs, we went to camps locally during our school holidays. There was a Jewish club -- I didn't mention that. There were two Jewish clubs, one in town and one out of town in the country. And at that country one, we had a camp, which was -- (sighs) talk about rough. I mean, nowadays, you take a cot and you put your sleeping bag on 39:00the cot. We had tarpaulins that we put on the floor -- on the ground -- and put our sleeping bag on top of that. We pitched our tents ourselves and took them down ourselves. We dug the toilets ourselves. You know, it was wonderful fun. We had a lot of fun. And these camps not only served as a social gathering for Bulawayo Jewish kids, but also the other town, Salisbury. We would mix -- they would come to us and we would go to them for other functions. And then, in all the little -- tiny little towns -- there would be a smattering of a Jewish community here and there -- their kids would come. So, there was strong affiliation, from my perspective in Habonim. I know Betar had the same. And there was rivalry, you know? You're Betar? Hm. That kind of -- You're Habonim! 40:00So, we were very much -- we celebrated Yom Ha'atzmaut, we celebrated Yom HaShoah. We were vibrant. And in some ways, I must say, the Jewish communities were ghettoized. We kind of lived close to each other -- not on top of each other, but close to each other. My mother was very involved in the shul -- my father was involved in the shul. My mother was involved in community work, Zionist work. She never went back to medical studies. She never -- the only 41:00studying that she did in Bulawayo was to learn English and to do typing, shorthand and typing in those days. But she never worked. My father -- and then I'll get back to the shul -- later on, again, as the community developed, there was a need for an old age home, and my mother and father were founders -- on the founding board and committee of this old age home. And in fact, it's that home now that has become the center of what's left of the community in Bulawayo. It's where they have their services. And there's -- if you want to be kosher, you do it through them, and it's kind of like the last vestige of a Jewish community in 42:00Rhodesia, in Zimbabwe -- not just Bulawayo; in the whole country. And there are old people there.

CW:So, you mentioned that you love languages. What were the languages around in the home growing up?

GW:Good question. Yiddish. (laughs) Yiddish and Hebrew. And English. My mother knew Russian, German, and Lithuanian. I don't know what my father -- I think my father was just Yiddish and English, with an accent.

CW:Did you speak Yiddish with them or English?

GW:English. They spoke Yiddish to each other -- when they didn't want us to understand, like everybody else, and just -- generally. My father had cousins 43:00who he'd speak Yiddish to, and his sister, and his brother-in-law. But that was -- it was mainly English.

CW:Was there -- you mentioned a lot of -- about Habonim. Was there any Yiddish culture around, other than the language itself?

GW:There was. And I can't remember the name of the actor who had his little group, and they performed Yiddish plays. He was very revisionist; he was Betar. I don't mean to do that. (laughs) He was Betar. And (sighs) I can see him. He had a big voice and a dramatic -- and he was an actor and a performer. And they did perform Yiddish plays, but I wasn't taken to them. I was too young and 44:00probably wouldn't have understood. But I think my parents went. So, there was a lot of Yiddish -- strong Yiddish -- in the older generations. Yeah.

CW:So, what was your sense growing up there of your -- was politics something you talked about -- sort of in your family in this -- the transitional period for the country?

GW:(pauses) I'd like to say yes. We had -- but in my -- what I'm remembering is, I was too young to vote, and I wasn't really politically active, in the sense of governing the country. I was more civically active, just in the little area of 45:00Bulawayo. The politics that I remember were that we had -- Sir Roy Welensky was the prime minister of Southern Rhodesia -- at one time, there was a Northern Rhodesia and a Southern Rhodesia -- and then he became prime minis-- he ran the whole three countries, Nyasaland, Northern Rhodesia, and Southern Rhodesia. I don't remember if his title was prime minister or governor or whatever. He was Jewish, or he had Jewish connections. I think his mother was Jewish; his father -- I don't remember, but there was pride in the fact of that. And then, we had a Jewish member of parliament, and he was a great source of pride to the 46:00community. And he did a lot of good things. At the time, when he was a member of parliament, in my awareness, the country was on track to being a one-man, one-vote, egalitarian society. And then, I don't exactly remember when it was that the party who wanted to keep the whites and the blacks separate came into power. I'm thinking it was late '50s, beginning of the '60s, and I was already getting ready to go to high school and university. And then -- and that was when 47:00the turmoil started. Because what the one side was willing to give and the other one to receive -- that whole situation changed, and it went back to the whites and the others. And that's when derailment of the country really started, in my opinion. I don't ever remember voting as a Rhodesian. Because I went to university in South Africa when I was -- had just turned seventeen, and there was a distance from the country then. I was kind of in no man's land. I kind of knew what was going on in South Africa, but it was their country; it wasn't mine, and it didn't concern me. That's how self-absorbed I was. And what was 48:00happening at home was happening at home, but I wasn't there. So, I was drifting. And then, when I finally graduated and -- I got married to a South African, I went to live in South Africa and gave up my Rhodesian citizenship to become a South African.

CW:So, you left before --

GW:Yes.

CW:-- before '64 or -- when --

GW:Well, I went to university in 1964.

CW:Mm-hm.

GW:I had graduated from high school in 1963; I went to university in 1964, and came back to work in Rhodesia for a year in 1968.

CW:So, in that time, it had gone from sort of Southern Rhodesia to --

GW:Oh, yes. It --

CW:-- Rhodesia?

GW:-- the Southern Rhodesia was a brief --

CW:Yeah.

GW:-- a brief period. Yeah.

CW:Yeah. Were you ever afraid about your parents being there as you were living --

GW:Yeah. Like I said, you know, they were living there. I just -- I went back. And, you know, when I was there, I used to sort of -- there were stories of -- you know, because your servants lived on your property and they had their friends who would come to visit, you never really knew who was on your property. And I think I remember discussing with somebody there, you know, how do you know who is who anymore? How do you know who's your friend and who isn't? And there's no answer. There's just no answer to that. You have faith. And you have luck, I suppose.

CW:So, in terms of your own Jewish identity, what was important to you in sort of your being Jewish in -- in your own -- for you?

GW:Whoa. (laughs) What is important -- it's still very important to me. I feel the richness of this peoplehood that I am born into and that I accept. I feel -- I love what I know about it and what I read about it. And it's ongoing; there's 51:00always lots more to learn. I am proud of my heritage. (pauses) I love that there has been a continuum, and that I'm part of this continuum. It's a nice feeling to know that my name, for example, has been in the family, and -- and that I can go -- that my grandfather was who he was -- both of them, particularly the rabbi. Does that answer the question? I don't know. You know, it's -- it's just 52:00me. I am Jewish. And it's important for me. It belongs to me. I belong to it.

CW:So, when did you go to Lithuania, and how did you come to decide that you were gonna go back and see?

GW:Rashly. I was totally unprepared for -- for the effect it had on me and how I reacted to it. It's kind of -- like everything else, a long, convoluted little pathway. I was thinking of going to the Balkans to -- no -- yes, to Croatia, and that area. And I have a friend who is in the travel business -- that was one of 53:00my lives -- that we worked together in a little niche, it was wonderful. I asked her if she knew anybody who could guide me around -- or guide me for a trip in the Balkans. And she sent me the name of somebody who was doing a trip to the Baltics from London. And I thought to myself, This is it. I want to go to Lithua-- I've always wanted to go to Lithuania. I wanted to go with my mother, and my mother always said she can't go back, because for her it will be like walking on blood. And I understand. I understand. So, within two weeks, I had 54:00signed up for this trip, I flew to London, joined the group, and we flew to Vilna. And --

CW:What year was this?

GW:It was four years ago, 2008 -- 2007 -- after my mother died in 2007, 2008. And, you know, we had a --- Vilna was like a -- acclimatizing, getting acclimated to the country -- experience. And then, we set off. Oh, I had asked Robin, the leader of the group, if it was possible for me to go to Laukuva and also to Shavl, because that's where my -- that's the last place my father's father had been. My father was born in Tauragė -- in Tavrig -- but I was 55:00discouraged from going there because I was told there's really nobody there, and nothing there that would help me connect. And it was too much to do father and mother in one trip, so I just focused on mother mainly. He said yes. So, I thought, Well, I'm going. Oh, and we had this wonderful guide, Chayim Bogman, who had actually taken my first cousin, whose name is also Ghita, to the house in Laukuva. So, he was -- he kind of remembered where it was, and that helped, too. When I went to Laukuva and into the house and could picture all the stories 56:00that I had, I came out of there enraged, sad, emotional, just -- almost traumatized. I don't want to be dramatic, but it was. (laughs) It was a very traumatic moment -- moments for me. And then, I met this distant cousin. And that was a wonderful bonding. And then, we went to Kovno, and I suddenly remembered what my mother had told me about being there at medical school. Because I saw it -- I didn't -- I had told Robin? about the medical school, but that's all I really remembered. And then, while he was -- he took me to -- he took us, the bus, to the medical school -- he took the bus to Laukuva. (laughs) 57:00So, they're sitting on the bus in this narrow little street in this huge coach, and I'm going into the house with Chayim and feeling threatened, because there are families living there now who weren't sure who I was and what I wanted. But so the coach now goes to the medical school in Kovno, and I suddenly realized that she had told me that she had to go to two campuses. The medical school -- she had classes at the medical school -- and then she had to run across town, cross the river, and take a funicular up to her other classes. Well, there was the funicular. I saw it across the river. And that blew me away, too. And then, just all these little things. And then, the going into the forest and -- with 58:00the mosquitoes at that time, and the -- how cruel man is to man. I was angry. I was -- I didn't understand. I just -- I came home a mess. (laughs) You know? So, you asked. There were others in the group who had roots that they looked -- that they went to look for, and a lot of us had yahrzeit [anniversary of death] candles, and we lit them in different places. I had brought about a dozen with me, and I gave them out. (pauses) That's -- that's Lithuania. And you know, then I was aware of the fact that what's Lithuania now, forty years ago wasn't, and 59:00what was Lithuania then, forty years later isn't. So, you know, it's such a fluid sort of -- those poor people! Between the Russians and the Polish and the Germans and their own inter-wars. It was -- what a life. What a tumultuous history. Yeah. Pretty country, though.

CW:So, you have made a point to make this history part of your life, in going back there and also, obviously, we're here at the Yiddish Book Center, so Yiddish is -- Yiddish culture and the Eastern European lineage is important to 60:00you. Can you talk a little bit about what has been important to you about maintaining your curiosity in that part of your history?

GW:Well, let me tell you -- I just thought of this. I received a membership to the National Yiddish Book Center -- is that how you -- that's -- from my children for a birthday present. And that's how I first found out about this place. So, while I'm talking to you, I'm thinking, Look how they know who I am! You know? And how much I appreciate that. And this -- being here. And then, when 61:00I saw that Bulawayo thing, I knew that this is where I had to be. It's just too much --

CW:The crate and the --

GW:Yes.

CW:-- and the (UNCLEAR)?

GW:Yes, the crate and the -- I actually read about it, because I think at that time, you were still sending the "Pakn Treger" -- what -- how do you pronounce that?

CW:"Pakn Treger."

GW:"Pakn Treger" -- in the mail. And there was this column about receiving this crate from Bulawayo, from Zimbabwe. And I mean, whoa! And then, when I came and did the tour with you and I saw the crate there with that address on it, I thought, Wow! This is amazing! I didn't know that there were those books there. I didn't know that the shul had a basement. I knew that there were libraries -- 62:00as you came into the shul, there was a room on the right for brides, and then I think on the left there was, like, a book -- a library with lots of books. And I think at the back, also, where the rabbi -- you know, in the chambers that the rabbi used, there were books. But I didn't know there was a basement. 'Cause that's, I believe, where these books were found.

CW:Yeah. I think so. In 2000 --

GW:Yeah.

CW:-- the crate came here.

GW:So, it's been a long time since I got that membership. I didn't even realize that. It's twelve years now.

CW:But your kids somehow knew that Yiddish was --

GW:They knew that -- I've never asked them. I will: now I'll ask. I have three kids; I'll ask which one had the idea first. (laughs) Not that it matters -- I 63:00mean, it was from all three of them -- but they had the awareness, yeah.

CW:In raising your own family, were there specific values or traditions that you consciously tried to pass down to them?

GW:Yes. A lot of -- always, Jewishness, and how important it is to me. And because it's important to me, I wanted it to be important to them. And I think they got that. I don't know how much I want to talk about that --

CW:Okay.

GW:-- at this time.

CW:That's okay.

GW:But always, you know, they are aware they're Jewish. And their children are 64:00being raised Jewish. And it's very -- it's very pleasing to me.

CW:Do you have any relationship -- and no judgment in this question, I don't mean to ask it in a leading way -- to the Yiddish language, personally?

GW:Yes. I -- I love it. I think it's hysterical. (laughs) I'm reading a book -- "The History of Yiddish Civilization," by Paul -- and I can't pronounce -- Kr-- I've got it with me; I can show it to you. He's English. I'm very much enjoying it, but he goes through how some of the words from Yiddish have come into the 65:00English language -- in common use now. And one of them is "apikoyres [heretic]." And the other one -- I'm not gonna go into it. But it's -- and I laughed. I cracked up when -- I enjoy it so much, because it's so unique. And it's mostly untranslatable. And one thing I always do -- which my mother did -- before a trip, she would say, "Sit down. Sit down in your chair, in your house." And she would say, "For gezunt, zayt gezunt, kum gezunt [Travel well, be well, return safely]." And I do that with my children. And now that my mother's not alive 66:00anymore, I find someone to say it to me, or I say it to myself. But yes, I have a -- and I would like to learn it again -- and not again; I've never learned it, but I'd like to understand more of it than I do. I can read Hebrew and I kind of put that into trying to read Yiddish, but I know it doesn't really -- you know, it will get me only this much, and then there's a whole lot of things -- of vowels and construction that I have to learn. But I'd like to learn it.

CW:And what is your connection to Yiddish, Yiddishkayt, Eastern European Jewish heritage? How does that fit into your broader sense of your Jewish identity?

GW:I think I've answered that, haven't I? I don't know. I don't go -- wherever I 67:00travel, wherever I go to, I look for the shul. If there's no Jewish community there anymore, I look to see where they were. And when I travel with my kids, we do that, too. In fact, I think that the closest shul to the Bulawayo shul that I've seen is the one in Copenhagen, in Denmark. When I walked in, I thought, Whoa! This is just like Bulawayo. So, I don't know if that's -- that answers you, but I -- it's just part of me.

CW:Yeah.

GW:Yeah.

CW:Yeah. Well, I have maybe one other question, but I'm wondering if there's anything that you want to communicate about Bulawayo or South Africa or anything 68:00that we have or haven't talked about in this?

GW:The only thing I'm saying about Bulawayo now is, out of the phoenix -- out of the ashes, the phoenix will rise. And I have to hold that, because I wish it to happen. Not only in Bulawayo, but in the whole country, and in all countries where there's been such needless, pointless corruption and destruction -- that there should be peace. Just a prayer for peace.

CW:When's the last time you've been there?

GW:Nineteen seventy-eight. (laughs)

CW:Wow.

GW:So, I don't know what it's like. But from pictures that I've seen -- and I have friends who go back and -- go back and forth -- it hasn't changed. It's stuck in the '50s and '60s, and may be even worse, because nothing's been maintained.

CW:Wow.

GW:So, I just hope for peace and for good things. For everybody.

CW:Yeah.

GW:For the world. (laughs)

CW:(laughs) Well, I think that's a wonderful place to end, actually, on that -- that wish, that prayer. So, a sheynem dank [thank you very much] for sharing --

GW:Oh, a sheynem dank to you, too.

CW:-- (laughs) for sharing with us.

GW:My pleasure. Thank you for this opportunity.

CW:Sure. Of course. Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]