BEN ZION SHENKER ORAL HISTORY

HANKUS NETSKY:We're speaking with Ben Zion Shenker here in Brooklyn on July 3rd, 2012. And I'm just wondering if you can just start by telling us about your family background a little bit.

BEN ZION SHENKER: Okay. Do you want to know about my musical background or --

HN:The second question is musical background.

BZS:Okay.

HN:First question is family background. (laughs)

BZS:Okay. I was born in the United States, actually in Williamsburg, Brooklyn -- New York, in 1925. And I -- of course, I had a real Jewish upbringing. I went to a kheyder [traditional religious school] as a young child. And I then went to 1:00the yeshiva.

HN:Can you tell us more about the kheyder, by the way, as we --

BZS:Yeah. Actually, the first place I went to was a kheyder in Williamsburg. That was, like, a talme-toyre [Talmud Torah]. That was when I was about five years old, probably. Because the yeshiva was a little too far. My mother at that time could not actually take me to the yeshiva so easily. So, she decided to -- to put me in a kheyder that was very close to where we lived. That was the Hebrew education I got as a child. But I also went to a public school, actually, the first grade -- or maybe it was kindergarten; I don't remember. And they discovered my musical talent right there. I used to sing for the assembly and everything else. Now, when I was a child -- my mother always used to tell me this, that I never needed any toys; I just needed one thing. I needed the Victrola. And she would stack up all of Yossele's records, (laughs) and I would 2:00put 'em on, one after another. And I would do that practically all day. She said, "You don't need any toys (UNCLEAR) play; you have -- that's all you wanted to listen to, is --"

HN:-- Yossele Rosenblatt.

BZS:"-- Yossele Rosenblatt."

HN:Seventy-eights?

BZS:Seventy-eights, of course. And I have to crank up the Victrola 'cause it didn't work by electricity at the time. I think it was an RCA when Victor -- Victrola (UNCLEAR) --

HN:Yes, sure.

BZS:-- RCA Victor. And actually, I did actually hear Yossele Rosenblatt in person. He --

HN:Wow.

BZS:(laughs) I can't say I remember everything about it, but I was about five years old at the time. And Yossele gave a benefit for the yeshiva in Williamsburg. He gave it on Shabbos as a benefit. This was after '29 already, after he was away --

HN:He lost all his money.

BZS:He lost all his money. But he was still doing a lot of charity, chesed [benevolence] work, everything.

HN:But then he went on the Keith circuit right after.

BZS:He went on that Vaudeville circuit that -- which was really very -- not really like him. But he had to do it. He just wanted to pay off all his creditors. And there was -- that itself was a -- something that not many people did. So, I remember my mother had me up in the gallery, among the women. So, I remember looking down exac-- I remember exactly what he looked like. He wore a long jacket, a long -- and he wore a khazonishe [cantorial] hat and everything else. But very good-looking person, very, very -- with long beard. I mean, I can remember that. But what he sang, I can't remember, that's for sure. (laughter) But he davened -- I heard -- I listened to all of shakhres [morning prayers]. I 4:00was there the complete (UNCLEAR) -- complete davening. So, that's something which not many people can boast, really.

HN:No. (Shenker laughs) Amazing.

BZS:It's interesting, when my mother would take me out, like, in the street during the day, neighbors were sitting around. They would say, Benele, zing Yosele -- sing one of Yossele's.

HN:So, you would do --

BZS:And I would do -- "Elokay neshome [The soul from G-d]." I used to sing it.

HN:Yeah.

BZS:I was all about four years old that time, you know what I mean? (laughs)

HN:How did you know all the text and everything?

BZS:Well, I listened to it. I listened to the records long enough to be able to learn.

HN:Yes. Yes. The kheyder was in Yiddish or --

BZS:Well, the kheyder was something else. Well, this is -- I mean --

HN:Already talmed toyre, you -- yeah.

BZS:Talmed toyre, yeah. That was -- actually was -- I can't remember too much of it, because only when I was very, very young, the first -- my first experience 5:00in education really. Right after that, I entered the yeshiva. There was second grade already when I came there. So, I remember some of my teachers, my rabeim, at that time, even.

HN:Were there music teachers in the yeshiva?

BZS:Yeah -- well, no. There weren't -- music then wasn't a part of the curriculum, I would say. That came later in years. I know -- I'm sure you heard the name Seymour Silbermintz.

HN:Well, yes, of course.

BZS:Actually, he was -- he taught -- I studied theory and piano with Seymour Silbermintz.

HN:With Seymour Silbermintz, really?

BZS:Yeah, yeah, that was my --

HN:He was still teaching in the 1970s or --

BZS:Yeah, sure.

HN:-- I mean, he would go to every day school.

BZS:I studied with him in the '50s, actually.

HN:Wow.

BZS:Even started early -- I'm sorry -- in the '40s, really. Yeah, when I was about fifteen years old. So, it was in the '40s.

HN:But I think that the first person that was identified with you that I knew of 6:00was Joshua Weisser.

BZS:That's true. I was just getting to that now.

HN:Oh, good. Okay, fine.

BZS:In fact, that was my early experience. Now, when I was about twelve years old, I would say, Seymour Silbermintz had a younger brother by the name of Joshua, Josh Silbermintz. He was actually a contemporary of my brother, was about a year and a half older than I am. But we knew the whole family. The families were very, very close with each other. We lived in Williamsburg at that time. There weren't very many frum [pious] at that time, even in Williamsburg, that were socially connected, you know? And we -- my mother and his mother, their mother -- used to go out canvassing for the yeshiva. They used to go together, the Mothers' Auxiliary. And so, I knew them very well. And Josh Silbermintz insisted that I have to join a choir, the same choir that he was in. I can't remember the conductor's name. It may have been Nadler, I'm not sure. 7:00But Nadler was a -- at that time, they lived -- he lived in Williamsburg. And he would have his rehearsal sessions on Saturday afternoon. 'Course, he had a lot of yeshiva boys. That's when they had time. Couldn't get 'em on Sunday, even, 'cause Sunday we went to yeshiva. So, Saturday afternoon was just the time.

HN:That's amazing.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:That's very interesting. I mean, I suppose you could sort of say it was study --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- even though it was rehearsal.

BZS:That's right. So, Josh at the time -- we'd meet up at one Saturday afternoon, I will come up there, and he'll give me a hearing and -- to see if I would join the choir. And he gave me -- he had me sing something for him. And he was very ha-- I saw he was --

HN:Do you remember what you sang?

BZS:Nah. (laughter) How can I? Anyway, he accepted me on the spot. But then, I -- when I joined at the rehearsal, I mean, I didn't really know too much about it, but I couldn't read music or any of that. But I was able to pick it up by 8:00ear. And I noticed that at one point, one kid went off-key or something. And he slapped him across the face. (Netsky laughs) I said, Wow. If this guy's gonna slap anybody across the face, I'm not joining this choir. (laughter) So, that choir I didn't join. However, about half a year later -- this was in the shul that we davened in. It was a shtibl [small Hasidic house of prayer], actually, in Bedford-Stuyvesant. There was a bar mitzvah there that had many guests. And somebody who -- whoever was davening for the omed [cantor's pulpit], I was there helping him, you know, singing along with him and everything else. And it so happened that Joshua Weisser happened to be one of the guests over there. And it seems he heard me sing, along with this -- with whoever davened there. As soon as the davening was over, he came over to me; he said, "Is your father here?" 9:00So, I said yes. "Could you introduce me to your father?" So, I said I could. I took him over to my father. And he said, What's my name? I told him Shenker. He says, "Mr. Shenker, I'm very interested in your son as joining my choir. I happen to like his voice very much." My father listens; he says, "Choir? Eh, that's not for my son. He's a yeshiva boy, you know, I don't think it's a good idea." So, he says, "Well, why don't you think it's a good idea?" He says, "Well, you know, the caliber of the people in choirs today is not really what we're looking for." The people in choirs were really not -- most of them were not really religious. They just had this -- they liked to sing, or they had this little job, and so -- and they went along. And, "I don't want him to mix with 10:00irreligious people, and, you know, he's a young boy, and he's -- young children pick up everything, their environment, and I don't think it's a good idea." So, he tried to argue with him. My father was very reluctant. So, he asked my father his address: "Where do you live?" He wants to speak to my mother. He thinks maybe he'll do better with her. So, sure, my father said, "You can come up." I mean, he gave him the --- we lived on Lafayette Avenue at that time. I think I remember -- I think it was 709 Lafayette Avenue. I'm not sure that was it, but I think it was. Right off Tompkins. I don't know if you know Bedford-Stuyvesant -- you know it?

HN:Sure.

BZS:Yeah. They had a park on Lafayette and Tompkins. Beautiful park. And sure enough, during the week, he just came up. He knocked on the door and was here with us. And he started speaking to my mother, and she said the same thing: she doesn't want me to leave for the yontoyvim, for Shabbos; you know, they have to 11:00travel, have to -- you know, it's a -- he's a young boy, they're very impressionable. So, he said, "What if I promise you that wherever I go, I'll make sure that he stays at the rabbi's house? That will be --" So, my mother said, "It's certainly a good point. However, you know -- but, you know, he'll be away Rosh Hashanah, he'll be away Sukkos, so -- we want him at home. We don't want him to travel." Anyway, he spoke so long until he actually convinced my parents he can take care of me, make sure that I'd be at the rabbi's house and so forth. And that's the way it went. I joined the choir. And you know, it was very interesting. He had this choir that -- actually, somebody had just left the choir -- a fellow by the name of Richard Tucker, incidentally. (laughs)

HN:Wow.

BZS:They didn't call him Richard; they called him something else. But I don't want to say it.

HN:Whoa! (laughter)

BZS:I think in present day and age, that's not a good -- okay, anyway.

HN:Was it an all --

BZS:Richard Tucker was actually -- was singing there as a tenor. He started off singing with Weisser as an alto soloist, and then when he -- when his voice changed to tenor, he came back again to sing. But now, at this point when he'd left already, his voice developed very -- whether or not -- he was raised studying opera, he was studying khazones [Jewish liturgical music]. But Weisser taught him khazones. I don't know if you're aware of that.

HN:I knew Weisser was a cantor.

BZS:Yeah, he was a cantor, and he had students. He had -- that was his livelihood, actually. As a cantor, I don't think he was that -- too proficient. I don't think -- I mean, he -- the choir was very good. And he put more emphasis on the choir than he did on his cantorial and stuff. But he davened as a cantor also. He was the old style -- like, you had Zeidel Rovner, Nissi Belzer. They used to -- they were the khazonim [synagogue cantors], and at the same time, they had their own choir. And they traveled. Of course, in America, you didn't 13:00travel that extensively. Most of the jobs that we went to at that point were in Brooklyn, almost. We were in -- I remember there -- being in Bay Ridge, in Bensonhurst. I think I was invited the first year as I sang as a soloist there. Later, we were in East Flatbush. But wherever you -- every place we came, I always was put up at the rabbi's house. That's something I remember very --

HN:That's amazing.

BZS:-- very -- (laughs) in fact, the rabbi in Bensonhurst was a Lubavitcher [member of the Lubavitch Hasidic sect]. And he taught me the fir-- I think the first -- what shall I say -- introduction to Lubavitcher nigunim [melodies], to Chabad nigunim, were there. I'd never heard it before. Yeah.

HN:So, what was it like?

BZS:I had a very, very good impression of it then. I mean, they're very serious type of nigunim. They weren't frivolous type of stuff.

HN:The veykes [moaning] kind of nigunim.

BZS:Veykes kind of thing.

HN:So, like the yearning tunes, like the --

BZS:Yeah. Yeah.

HN:And so, you learned that there. That's interesting.

BZS:Yeah. That's where I got my first exposure to --

HN:Isn't that fascinating?

BZS:-- Chabad. Later on -- it's interesting, but, you know, Weisser was the one that notated the first book of Chabad songs. They put out a number of books about it. The first one they did was Weisser. So, I happened to be privy to all the songs as he was notating it, because I knew when the fellows came around that sang it for him, and I used to make it my business; we lived in the same neighborhood. I lived only about two blocks, three blocks away. He lived on Pulaski Street, and I lived on Lafayette, which is only, yeah, three blocks away.

HN:Wow. So, you became aware of that whole style of --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- the whole Chabad kind of --

BZS:Well, this was much later on. This was right when I wasn't singing with them already. This was when I was already --

HN:But you're saying already with Weisser's choir you were --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- you were with a Lubavitch rabbi who you learned all these nigunim.

BZS:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's true.

HN:And that whole feeling of those nigunim -- which are different, very much --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- from the other ones. I mean, very -- as you said, very serious.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Yeah.

BZS:I'm going off on tangents, but the --

HN:No, no, no, you're -- well, stay with Weisser for a minute. I mean, that's fan-- that's really interesting.

BZS:Yeah, but I also used to very often come there in the evenings when he was teaching the khazonim. So, I --

HN:I mean, you were fourteen, I think. Fourteen is what I think.

BZS:Probably, yeah.

HN:Something like that.

BZS:That's probably when I -- I stopped singing -- actually, he kept me there till I was fifteen.

HN:Okay. (laughs)

BZS:And I was losing my voice. And what he did -- I mean, I can't say that I'm happy that he did it, because I really should have stopped really singing at that point. But I was losing my voice, but he started writing all my solos in a lower key. That's all.

HN:Oh, wow. So, he wanted to keep you. (laughs)

BZS:Yeah, he wanted to make sure. And I -- the last yomim-neroim [High Holidays] I sang with him, I was already fifteen. Which was already not a good time to 16:00sing anymore.

HN:Did he also do weddings with that choir?

BZS:Yes, he did weddings.

HN:It's a New York tradition.

BZS:Yeah, well, he did -- but he didn't have too many weddings. I remember doing it many times, but I wouldn't say it was something we did every week or something, you know? Actually, sometimes he did it without the choir. The weddings, I guess they could afford maybe a choir also, because it would become very expensive. But I was the soloist singing, "Oh, Promise Me," or "Vimale," you know, all these -- the standard stuff for weddings.

HN:Well, it's interesting, "Oh, Promise Me," "Vimale," I mean, it's like the mixture of the American wedding --

BZS:That's right.

HN:-- and the Jewish wedding, 'cause these choirs were -- it's such a fascinating tradition.

BZS:And he was the cantor at the wedding. That time they would have both a cantor and a mesader kedusha [Hebrew: officiant], a rabbi being a mesader kedusha.

HN:Wow.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:So, after that, did you get -- and tell us about musical training or any of that. Because you --

BZS:Yeah. I just want to mention one other thing. In one of the first concerts that we did -- he did concerts also -- we did it together with a number of other cantors, one of which was a very famous one, David Roitman. David Roitman was a -- by that time, he already -- he was on his way down already, because he -- he had removed his beard, you know that. He came to America with a beard, and he removed it in America. When I saw him, he only had a mustache.

HN:And then, he couldn't sing as well? (laughter)

BZS:I don't know if the beard had anything to do with it. They say there's a story that when David Roitman came to America, he met Yossele -- they knew each other from Europe, yeah? And he said, "Yossele, I don't understand. You sang my piece on a record. You never asked me permission." You know which piece he sang?

HN:What?

BZS:Oh, it's -- I can't remember at this moment. It was one piece that Yossele sang, which was David Roitman's.

HN:Interesting. I --

BZS:And if you look at --

HN:-- and he didn't give him credit? That's amazing.

BZS:I don't know if he gave him credit. I'm not sure.

HN:I wonder what it is. I mean, I do work on these.

BZS:If I can remind myself, maybe, eventually.

HN:Yeah, that's fascinating. And it was act-- well, maybe it's recorded on a David Roitman recording also.

BZG:David Roitman has it on recording, too.

HN:I'd imagine, yeah.

BZG:So, Roitman had said, "Yossele, how do you do a thing like that?" He said, "How am I supposed to know you're coming to America?" (laughter)

HN:Oh, no!

BZG:Anyway, at this concert --

HN:That's a great answer.

BZG:-- at this concert, there was a fellow by the name of Kretzschmar. I don't know if you've -- if that name means anything. Also one --

HN:Well, Kretzschmar I only know as a musician. There's a Kretzschmar who was a -- who played -- there was a klezmer who was a Kretzschmar, actually.

BZG:Yeah, but he was a -- this was a cantor.

HN:A cantor.

BZG:Maybe they're related. They probably could be related.

HN:I wonder.

BZG:Yeah.

HN:In Brooklyn, I mean, there's a kretshmer.

BZG:Yeah?

HN:I mean, it just means an innkeeper, but, you know.

BZG:Okay, "kretshmer" is "innkeeper."

HN:Yeah. But -- so cantor Kretzschmar also, okay.

BZG:Was there. There were a few other cantors. There was a -- at that time, it was very customary to have a number of cantors doing a concert together. That was like -- it was a way to attract a bigger audience. People liked this khazn; they liked that khazn; so they would come to listen. Anyway, you -- I sang a solo, "Mikimi mei ofar dol [Hebrew: Who raises the poor out of the dust]?" That was the first time that I sang in public. This was before --

HN:Which is this? This is one of Yossele's?

BZG:Yeah, one of Weisser's.

HN:One of Weisser's. What -- how does it -- do you remember?

BZG:It's in one of Weisser's books, I'm sure. And it was a very nice piece for a child. And I sang it with a lot of feeling and everything else. And they had their koloratur [vocal ornament] in it, you know, so -- as a child, I was able 20:00to koloratur. That was one of the reasons why he was so interested in having me in a choir. Very unusual that a boy soloist be able to really have a -- do a very -- a real khazonishe koloratur. And I had that. I did it very much with ease. So, when the concert was over, Roitman comes over to Weisser and says, "Shike, ver hot gezingn m'kimi?" So, "Who sang m'kimi?" So, he points at me. So, he comes over to me and gives me -- pinches my cheek and says, "Vest aroys vaksn a keyle [Here grows a great instrument]." (laughter) You know what that means?

HN:"You're gonna get a hernia!"

BZG:No.

HN:"Kile [Hernia]"?

BZG:No, no, not "kile" -- oy, a "keyle" means a "vessel."

HN:A vessel.

BZG:"You're gonna grow up to be something."

HN:Oh, okay! So, it's a compliment. (laughs)

BZG:A very big compliment.

HN:I thought he was worried about you. (laughs)

BZG:No, no, no, no.

HN:I thought you said "kile" but it was "keyle."

BZG:No.

HN:Okay. Like "kalei [Hebrew: instrument]."

BZG:I'm gonna grow up to be a --

HN:You're gonna grow up to be --

BZG:-- singer or something.

HN:-- an important singer.

BZG:Whatever that -- I mean, in Yiddish, it sounds better than it sounds in English, you know? (laughter) So, that was my first introduction to music, really. Then, after that, I realized that if I wanted to study theory, I'm not -- it won't happen with Weisser. He's too busy teaching khazonim to be able to sit down and teach me theory, harmony, and everything else. So, I was told that Seymour Silbermintz -- who at that time, was still going to Brooklyn College, I think. Later on, he went to Juilliard, you know, he got a degree there also. But he was still -- he was very -- he was young at that time. I mean, he's probably my junior only by five years, probably, at the time. You know? When I was 22:00fourteen, he may have been only nineteen or twenty yet, so --

HN:Makes sense.

BZS:And I -- he used to give me homework. After a while -- and I was able to notate already -- he would say he wants me to -- every week, I gotta bring in a piece of music, my own composition. It has to be a -- it can be a little round; it can be a little -- I take any text and write some music to it. And I followed through. And the fact was that later on, when he did a -- he wanted to get his doctorate; he did a dissertation on Hasidic music. And he got a lot of pieces that I already -- I was connected with Modzitz [Hasidic sect] at that time already, and he -- I helped him with that.

HN:You helped him. Yeah.

BZS:And he actually used one of my compositions as an illustration, also.

HN:Of Modzitz?

BZS:No, not about Modzitz. To illustrate one -- something he was saying in his 23:00-- and I was, of course, such a compliment that I -- I was all of fifteen or sixteen years old, you know? But he once performed -- I was there when he did it -- in Manhattan Center, they did a -- what do you call it? A -- I forgot the name, but they --

HN:Recital?

BZS:It's not a recital. They had a choir -- it was -- I can't remember what it's called where they did all different types in one -- it was like a --

HN:Oh, like a lecture demonstration or --

BZS:A dramatic demonstration; it was like --

HN:Like a master class --

BZS:No, no, this was for an audience, a large audience.

HN:An audience. Sounds like a lecture demonstration about cantorial music.

BZS:No, it was not that, really. He sang with a choir. He sang -- so I composed a piece called "Rokhel mevako al boneyho [Hebrew: Rachel cries for her children]" and he used it, and he had a woman sing a contralto singing it. And she had a voice -- (laughs) it was really -- and it was -- to me at that time -- 24:00I was all of fifteen or sixteen years old -- to have one of my pieces performed in Manhattan Center with an audience like that, I was going nuts, you know? (laughs)

HN:Wow. So yeah, and you'd just started really studying music also.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:So, he --

BZS:No, I -- later on, I took piano at the Henry Street Settlement. I don't know if you know --

HN:Sure. Of course. Still going.

BZS:Yeah, it's probably still going, yeah.

HN:Yeah, yeah. But you mentioned you were already collecting Modzitz nigunim?

BZS:Yeah, well, I was already connected with Modzitz at the -- when the rebbe came here, it was 1941. So, I was, like, fifteen, sixteen years old. And actually, I became the rebbe's musical secretary. (laughs)

HN:Oh, my God.

BZS:I have to tell you how I became connected with Modzitz, and that's a story in itself --

HN:Go ahead.

BZS:-- a very interesting story. The rebbe was invited -- actually, the first 25:00tish [Shabbos gathering around the table] that the rebbe had was the beginning of the year, in nineteen-- tof, shin, alef. That's -- well then became 1941. That was in parshas noyekh [second weekly Torah portion, "Noah"]. He was in Williamsburg, in the (UNCLEAR) Street shul. They had a big hall downstairs, and it was -- the place was -- and we lived at that time in Bedford-Stuyvesant, but we had a group of people that knew about Modzitz. They all -- they immigrated from that part of Poland.

HN:Which is Dęblin, the town of Dęblin, Poland --

BZS:Yeah, Dęblin, yeah.

HN:-- which is -- which was where --

BZS:You did your homework, I see. (laughter)

HN:You have to.

BZS:Yeah. Dęblin was another name of the -- official name of the town. Modrzyce was what the Jewish people called it.

HN:Yes.

BZS:And --

HN:So, they'd come over from the area.

BZS:They'd come from that area. You had Radom, you had [Odjerav?], those cities surrounding Modrzyce. So, those people were -- when they heard the Modzitz rebbe came and the -- to America, they all wanted to be the first to see him, hear him. So, we all walked -- we had about ten people at that time walking down from Bedford-Stuyvesant. It wasn't too far to walk. Today, Bedford-Stuyvesant/Williamsburg, it's almost like one-to-one area now, you know? They --- Satmar is going -- keep going up into Bedford-Stuyvesant. It'll be breaching Crown Heights pretty soon.

HN:Whoa! (laughter) That'll be interesting.

BZS:Yeah. Anyway. So, we had the whole group of people going. So, I heard the rebbe briefly at that time, but I didn't have any connection with him. I was just -- I just heard him, and that was it. Later on, the rebbe appeared in one of the shuls in Williamsburg, so I was there also. But I didn't have any personal connection with him. The rebbe was invited to Bedford-Stuyvesant in a 27:00shul called Van Buren Street shul. That shul was actually -- Moshe Koussevitzky, when he came the first time --- Koussevitzky was here in '38 as a visitor. And he went back to Poland after that. And luckily, he was a -- he went to Russia instead of remaining in Poland. He immigrated to Russia. And that -- in Russia, he'd be -- he actually sang opera there, Moshe, yeah.

HN:Wow. Wow.

BZS:Any rate, so Koussevitzky went to that shul, and there were -- some people in that shul also stemming from Poland, from the same area that the rebbe was, they invited the rebbe for a Shabbos. So, I was there Friday night. I didn't have any personal connection there then. However, Shabbos morning, my father and myself went over to the rebbe to greet him and say, Good Shabbos. And the rebbe 28:00asked my father his name and where he's from and everything like that. A little conversation. And when my father told him his background, he asked him to join him in the Shabbos meal. And he said I can join him also, with my brother. But my father wanted my brother and me to go home first to my mother to make kiddush for her and then come back. Eat at home and then come back. He didn't want us to -- and, of course, there were other people that the rebbe invited also. Must have been about a minyen that they had there. So, we went home, and then we came back to this residence of this fellow that the rebbe was staying by. When I came back, I sat down on a couch -- the rebbe was sitting in his chair, that's the couch right where the piano is, right in back of it. And I found that on the side of the couch there was a book called "La'khaside mizmor [The Hasidic psalm]" by a fellow by name of Mem Shion Geshuri. I never saw the book before. I 29:00opened it up. It was written in Hebrew. I was able to read it. But I also saw notations there, of music. So, as I was reading it, I -- just to myself, I, like, sort of singing the song as they're singing. And the rebbe turned around over something and said, "Kenst leyenen music? You know how to read music?" I was all of fifteen years old, so he -- and I was a short little kid. He couldn't believe that I would be able to read music. So, I said, "A bisl [A little]." I didn't want to say -- I said, "A little bit." He said, "Lome'her, lome'her [Let's hear, let's hear]." So, they're all -- they were his nigunim, actually, in this book. And I was singing his nigunim. He was flabbergasted after that, a kid of -- that young, who could do it. So, then he asked me to sing on my own the shir hamalos [song of ascents] by the end of the meal.

HN:The Modzitzer (UNCLEAR).

BZS:So, I sang a nigun -- it wasn't one that I have on recording.

HN:Yeah, okay.

BZS:That came later. (laughter) But I sang a nigun that I heard from a Lubavitcher who came from Europe. The Lubavitcher had a yeshiva in the same town where the rebbe lived that was called Otwock. That was like a half hour from Warsaw. The Lubavitcher rebbe lived there also, the old Lubavitch rebbe, the father-in-law of the one that pa--

HN:Oh, Schneerson.

BZS:Oh, he was also a Schneerson -- that was -- it was Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn. "Mayatz," they called him. So, the students of the Lubavitch used to come very often to the shale-shudes [third Shabbos meal before the end of the day] by the rebbe, the Modzitzer rebbe in Otwock. They learned the Modzitzer nigunim.

HN:The third Sabbath meal.

BZS:Yeah, third Sabbath meal. So, they brought to America -- they came -- they arrived in America when there was talk about Poland being attacked. I mean, there was talk about it before Hitler did it. They were ordered -- the American 31:00consul told them to leave Poland because things aren't gonna -- they're not very stable in Poland. And they're American citizens; they wanted them to leave. So, they came back earlier. The Lubavitcher rebbe remained there until they started actually bombing Otwock. Then, he went into Warsaw, and from Warsaw they took him out; they took him to Sweden, and that's where he got a ship coming to America. But he -- it was a dangerous situation at that time. First of all, the Germans were looking for him already, and the Gestapo was looking for him, and they were -- anybody that had a name as a rabbi, they wanted to capture. They wanted to get 'em first. So, he was -- when he escaped Warsaw, they were actually looking for him already. And that's going off on a tangent, but there were -- a Lubavitcher fellow who, when he came here, joined us in -- joined my 32:00yeshiva -- taught me a nigun that the Modzitz rebbe made in Poland at that time, and I sang that for shir hamalos. And the rebbe was -- he couldn't believe that this nigun got to America already, 'cause it was something that he made in the last couple of months, you know? But I was -- at that time, I was so nervous singing it that I started speeding it up. I started off slow, and then I started speeding it up. When I finished, the rebbe said, "I gotta tell you something." He says, "When you sing a nigun, you gotta sing it like a clock: tick, tock, tick, tock. Not like a train: choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo." (laughs) He gave me a whole lesson in that. (laughter)

HN:Do you remember which one it was? I'm just curious.

BZS:I have it -- I later recorded it.

HN:Oh, okay.

BZS:Yeah, I have it for "Simcha le'artzecha [Hebrew: Joy to your land]." (sings) "Bom-bom-bom-bom, bom-bom-bom-bom, simcha le'artzecha [Hebrew: joy to your land], bom-bom-bom-bom, bom-bom-bom, vesason le'irecha [Hebrew: and joy to your cities], hay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay, ay" -- that became very famous, that nigun.

HN:That's really amazing, yes. And you definitely have the clock thing down. (laughter) That's really great. That's really interesting, actually.

BZS:Yeah. So, I mean, at that -- that was the catalyst, so to say, of my becoming close to the rebbe. From then on, of course, I used to go there to melave-malke [end-of-Shabbos meal, lit. "ushering out the queen"]; I used -- I didn't walk to the shabosim [Shabbos gatherings] 'cause it was a little too far to walk, you know, every Shabbos. But I know that he had melave-malke for just small crowd, not --

HN:"Melave-malke" meaning when the rabbi gives a sermon at the shale-shudes, basically.

BZS:No, melave-malke is the -- after Shabbos --

HN:After Shabbos, right before havdole [the ceremony performed at the close of 34:00the Sabbath and festivals to mark the return to workdays], though, isn't it?

BZS:It's after havdole.

HN:After havdole.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:I've always thought melave-malke --

BZS:It's a meal after -- by the end of the Sabbath. "Melave-malke," what it actually means --

HN:Oh, "the angel is still there."

BZS:No, yeah -- well, no. It's the Hebrew of melave-malke, where you -- how do you say it in English -- the malke -- malke is Shabbos --- Shabbos is malke, the queen. Your --

HN:Malavei [Hebrew: Bring] --

BZS:Malavei, to --

HN:To do with --

BZS:Malavei, no, "malavei" means to -- oh, I can't think of the English word.

HN:"Malavei" is (UNCLEAR).

BZS:No!

HN:Yiddish word? (laughs)

BZS:Bagleytn [to escort].

HN:Bagleytn.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Okay.

BZS: You know?

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BZS:How would you say -- what's (UNCLEAR)?

HN:"Bagleytn" means "introduce."

BZS:Nope.

HN:No, "bagleytn"? Well, 'cause "bagleytung" -- or to -- preserve?

BZS:No.

HN:Or -- no?

BZS:You actually -- you're --

HN:Greet? Greet?

BZS:Not greeting -- you're following the malke. You're saying goodbye to her.

HN:Saying goodbye. You're saying goodbye. So, okay.

BZS:Yeah. But there's an English word that I can't think of right at this moment. Okay.

HN:Okay. (laughs) That's all right. So, the melave-malke -- okay. So, you were talking about, anyhow, doing this at the melave-malke.

BZS:Yeah, that's when I started becoming -- when I became closer, 'cause I used to go there. And within a -- I would say a few, a little while, the rebbe used to call me already to his house, to his living quarters, to notate a nigun. He knew that I was able to notate, so when he'd compose something, I was the one -- so I became -- unofficially, I became his musical secretary. This went on for years, until he left for Israel, for Palestine.

HN:So, how did that work? He would think of something and then call you in, or --

BZS:No, he would call me after he composed something. He couldn't write, he couldn't read, but he was -- everything he did by memory. And if he wanted -- 36:00let's -- if he didn't want to forget it, he -- there was no tape recorder; there was nothing to record it then -- he would have me come up. There was -- later on, when he moved to different quarters, I used to daven there every morning. I used to daven shakhres there. So, like, he would -- after davening, he would say, "Ben Zion, I want to see you." I would come up. He'd say, "Last night I composed something. I'd like you to write it down." And that's what I would do. And that's how we preserved all his -- and he composed -- in America, living in America, the six years that he lived here -- about a hundred pieces.

HN:And they published the whole --

BZS:It wasn't all published.

HN:It wasn't all published? Oh.

BZS:I have a lot -- I have a manuscript -- I have it in manuscript.

HN:Very interesting.

BZS:Yeah. Yeah.

HN:Wow. I didn't know --

BZS:I recently started recording it. There's somebody that comes here with a pretty good recording machine that I -- all these nigunim that were not -- that people don't really know because they were -- he didn't sing it that often. And 37:00I have it all on manuscript. So --

HN:Wow. And you started recording those?

BZS:Yeah, yeah. I have one fellow that was urging me to do this, and I've been going along with him.

HN:Fantastic.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Oh, that's wonderful.

BZS:So, that's my --

HN:So, that's the collecting --

BZS:Yeah. And of course, I got Weisser interested later. When we put out a lot of these different publications, where you put out some of -- very complex nigunim, I felt I wasn't -- you know what happ-- very similar to khazones koloratur and everything else -- I felt I wasn't proficient enough at that time to be able to notate it. So, I asked Weisser whether he would come to the rebbe and do it. And sure enough, he did it with -- he was very happy to do it. And he became very, very, very friendly with the rebbe, too. He later, in one of his books, he printed a lot of -- a whole segment of the rebbe's nigunim.

HN:And the rebbe just kept composing nigunim --

BZS:He was a --

HN:-- till the end, that's --

BZS:-- like a fountain, you know?

HN:Amazing. Amazing. And his father before him, also.

BZS:His father before him, yeah. I'd say he was the second generation of composers. And then, his son, also, in Israel, who lived in Israel. Son lived in Israel, 1935. He joined his father -- when his father went -- made a visit to Israel, he joined him. And he didn't take along his family. He had his wife and child. But when he went -- once he was in Israel, he decided he wanted to remain. So, he later brought his rebetsn [wife of the rabbi] and his child, who later became the rebbe, who later became his --

HN:Wow.

BZS:Yeah. And five generations, all them composed music -- wrote nigunim.

HN:It went back to the --

BZS:Including the present one.

HN:-- early eight-- into the 1800s, right, I think --

BZS:Yeah. Well, I would --

HN:-- the early 1800s.

BZS:-- his father started in -- composing, like, in 1870.

HN:Yeah. But before the father, was there --

BZS:No, his father was also -- his father -- we don't remember --= nobody seems to remember --

HN:They don't know what they are. They don't -- he didn't teach the children and the grandchildren?

BZS:There was -- he had some sort of thing with the (UNCLEAR). He felt there was such a -- in serious situation that he didn't wa-- he felt that he doesn't want it to become a -- like, this halel [hymn], you know.

HN:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, he --

BZS:So, he kept back.

HN:So, he didn't want to transmit it because he --

BZS:No. He felt that that was just too serious a thing to --

HN:Wow. So, it disappeared.

BZS:Yeah. But his son already was -- a generation later did -- I mean, of course he -- there was no way at that point that -- you couldn't record it. Well, there 40:00-- actually, where he was living -- he lived already up till 1921, so there was recordings at that time. But it wasn't anything that -- simple people didn't do recording, you know? There were no --

HN:It was not -- also, they recorded things that were not like that. You know, they recorded the cantors doing very -- and the idea of recording nigunim, I think --

BZS:Yeah. No.

HN:-- I mean, I think you were --

BZS:But you had klezmer, you did have it.

HN:Of course, 'cause it was popular dance music.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:It's fascinating because, I mean, there's a little bit of recording of early Hasidic music, but very, very little.

BZS:Not -- going back --

HN:You really were a pioneer in this.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:I mean --

BZS:That's true. That's true. I think I'm considered the first person to really come out with the first Hasidic record.

HN:Can you talk about how that came about? (laughs)

BZS:That's an interesting story in itself, you know?

HN:I'm sure it is.

BZS:Okay? Am I following your --

HN:Oh, yes, I mean, I'm not --

BZS:-- your agenda?

HN:-- I'm just going -- I've researched a little bit, so I just want to make sure that we cover the important --

BZS:Okay, anyway --

HN:-- and then you can tell me what I didn't cover.

BZS:-- this first record appeared in 1956. Now, how'd we come about doing a thing like that? Because nobody did before. We had a little shtibl in Crown Heights where -- we called it Modzitz shtibl. Well, it was small -- it wasn't the big pla-- we had --

HN:Storefront synagogue, you should --

BZS:Well, this was -- happened to be in a house that had a residence upstairs. And somebody -- one of the family lived upstairs. It was the widow of one of the Modzitz rebbe's sons, who passed away at a young age. So, she had -- occupied the apartment upstairs with two children. And downstairs was the shul. She actually -- she took care of the shul -- (UNCLEAR) -- we had to have somebody to take care of it, make sure that it's clean, and so. And we had -- we used to 42:00daven there every day, every shabosim. And the third meal, that's when we had people coming -- 'cause they wanted to hear -- that was the time when we would sing quite a bit of Modzitz. And so, we had people come from the neighborhood, coming, people -- some of them I didn't even know even. And we had two people that used to come every Shabbos, lived in the neighborhood, but they weren't -- they were strangers to us. We weren't -- they weren't our people. And they never introduced themselves. (Netsky laughs) And one Shabbos night, motsoy-shabes [evening at the close of Shabbos], they come over to me. They said, You know, we've been coming here for the last couple of months. You probably noticed us. We sit on the side over there. But we enjoy your music very much. We know that 43:00Modzitz has a lot to give to the world. Says, Would you want to record this music? Would you ever think of recording it? So, I said, "It would be very nice, I guess, if we did. But I -- we're not people -- I mean, we're -- I mean, I can't see myself doing recording. I mean, this is like -- you gotta be professional to do that." He says, "No, we --" One guy, his name was Stambler. Stambler was -- he actually was a high school teacher. But on the side, he did recordings. He put out some of the cantorial recordings that they redid --

HN:Collectors Guild.

BZS:-- Collectors Guild, that's -- that was his --

HN:Yeah. (UNCLEAR)

BZS:But this was before even Collectors Guild. Collectors, he started, I think, later. But he did some other recording, I think, that he did. He was involved with recordings. And he knew what he -- he knew how to go about it, knew where 44:00the studios, knew where the musicians that you can contact. In fact, he was the one that had me contact Vladimir Heifetz. He knew him personally or knew about him and -- but that was later on, of course. The first recording we did was just with a piano. He got the fellow to play the piano, fellow by the name of Birnbaum. Also was a teacher in the -- (laughs) a schoolteacher. But he was a good musician. He --- nebekh [poor thing] -- passed away at a very young age. In fact, when -- during -- the second recording that we did, in the middle of the recording, he passed away at that time. We had to get somebody else to finish it. Anyway, so he started talking to me. I dismissed it. I didn't see where -- first of all, I'd have to get together a choir and have to -- and everybody was 45:00-- people at -- workers and factories, and I had -- people in the shul, they weren't professional singers. I myself at that time was in business with my father, and it was -- we had a sweater business, at that time. We manufactured at that time. So, I had very little extra time also. So, I had to dismiss the whole idea. He kept coming every Shabbos, the shale-shudes. Every motsoy-shabes, he would get -- come over to me again, "Did you think about it? Did you come to a --" -- until he wore me down, you know? (laughs) He actually wore me down. And we started thinking about it. And we started making rehearsals every Saturday night, in fact. It was either in my house or in one of the other participants' house. We once had -- I even went to a house in the West Side of Manhattan where 46:00you had a grand piano there. So, there were really -- we had rehearsal -- that was -- (laughter) but this went on for about eight or nine months, rehearsing, before we went into the studio. We wanted to get it to sound as much -- as professional as possible. And that's when we recorded this first "Melave-malke" --

HN:The ten-inch --

BZS:-- the ten-inch "Melave-malke."

HN:Yeah. And you put that out on Neginah Records, right?

BZS:Yeah -- well, no, we called -- I called it "Neginah."

HN:"Neginah," right?

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Yeah. And you actually put it out, though, or the Stamblers put it out?

BZS:Uh --

HN:It was you, right? I think --

BZS:Actually, I think it was -- Stambler had his name on it also.

HN:B.H. Stambler. Yeah. Yeah.

BZS:His name was Benedict Stambler. His wife was --

HN:Benedict Stambler.

BZS:-- Helen. She was --

HN:Helen. "B. and H. Stambler."

BZS:"B. and H. Stambler." She --

HN:They were like the photo shop.

BZS:B. and H. That's right. Yeah. (Netsky laughs) And she was the -- I would say 47:00she knew the engineering part of the --

HN:Oh!

BZS:Yeah. She was very much -- she was a schoolteacher also. But she had very little experience already in recording, I think.

HN:Very interesting.

BZS:So, when we came to the studios, she was the one that actually did the instructions, you know, "Take one," "Take two" -- I mean, she was the one that -- and she was in the control room, and she would tell us, "Well, that take was good in one part, not good in the other part, you know? So, we're gonna take another take."

HN:She was like a producer.

BZS:Yeah. No, she was not that -- actually, she was like -- I would say she was the producer, really.

HN:What was the reaction when this came out?

BZS:I'll tell you, we printed the five hundred things, and we made it as a fundraiser for the -- our shul. That's the way we originally. We didn't think of putting it into stores, even. And we mailed it out. We had a mailing list. And 48:00people'd send back donations. And the donations, when they started coming in, we saw that -- and people even wrote letters back saying how much they enjoyed it. And so, we said, Well, maybe we should start looking way of distributing in regular stores. So, I went to one of the stores that I knew the proprietor there, and I told him, "We have this thing out." So, he says, "Give me a copy; let me listen to it." So, I -- he listened to it. He says, "It sounds great! Why -- we can sell it? Sure we can sell it." So, he gave me an order. And once one store had it, another store got wind of it. So, they started calling us for the record. So, we -- the five hundred were gone already, the first five hundred. We had to make, like, a thousand. It kept on going. We kept reprinting it, 49:00reprinting it. And then, when we put out that -- we wanted to put out twelve-inch 'cause ten inches went out of style. So, what I did -- we took some of the stuff from there, and we added some new material. This was it.

HN:This was the second, right? "The New Modzitzer Melave Malke." The first one was -- yeah. So, these are Modzitzer nigunim; however, you were already composing --

BZS:Yes. I was already --

HN:-- and becoming well known.

BZS:So, let's go back -- we have to go back a little bit now.

HN:Exactly. Forty-six is "Mizmor l'dovid [Psalm of David]," so it must be before --

BZS:Anyway --- "Mizmor l'dovid."

HN:-- before that.

BZS:I started composing -- as a result of my connection with Modzitz -- that was my hashpoe, my --

HN:-- inspiration.

BZS:-- inspiration. And I would say that in -- that's when I was studying with Silbermintz. So, I started composing --- first, when I was studying with 50:00Silbermintz, I composed things that didn't have any shaykhes [connection] to Hasidic music. It was like little ditties or something, you know? A round. I took certain texts -- I took a text from pirke-oves [Ethics of the Fathers] -- you know, we -- (singing) "Al tistakeyl bakankan, ela bameh shiyesh bo, al tistakeyl bakankan, ela bameh shiyesh bo [Hebrew: Do not look at the container, rather at what is inside of it]" -- and I - "al tistakeyl bakankan, ela bameh shiyesh bo -- another voice."

HN:Another selection. Made it a round, right.

BZS:Made a round out of it.

HN:Keep going, I gotta learn this. (singing) "Al tishta" -- did you ever record this?

BZS:(laughs) No.

HN:Keep going. I'll --

BZS:Think I remember it, you think?

HN:Yeah. That's wonderful.

BZS:This is, like, 1941, '42.

HN:(laughs) My God.

BZS:But I -- when I started composing --

HN: You started making -- yeah.

BZS:-- singing the Hasidic style, I started writing them down, of course. I 51:00didn't collect it in a book yet. I did the collecting a couple of years later. And I saw I was having such an amount coming up that you have to -- you can't just let it scratch the paper, you know. So, when I used to go out on vacation during the winter, I would take along all my scraps of paper. (laughs)

HN:'Cause you were writing them down, isn't that --

BZS:I tried to do it according to the years, according to the -- when -- I'll show you a book. This actually is --

HN:Oh, fascinating.

BZS:-- well, I don't know if you should take a picture of the staples, because -- you can take a picture of some of the music.

HN:(laughs) Exactly.

BZS:Well, this already I have somebody put it in the computer, you know, so it's not my handwriting.

HN:Yeah, this is not your handwriting, right. This is already pretty fancy here.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:So, these are all compositions.

BZS:Yeah. This is tof, shin, samekh, beys. I mean, this is my latest book. So, I --

HN:So, you noticed the Modzitzer rebbe was constantly being inspired to compose, so why shouldn't you be is the idea, right?

BZS:Sure, sure.

HN:Yeah, yeah. So, were the --- stylistically, it's interesting -- I mean, do you feel like there's --

BZS:I don't know --

HN:Where's that come, 'cause it doesn't feel like a bunch --

BZS:I really did not ever determine whether my style was completely Modzitz. 'Cause I had other inspirat-- hashpoe also, from different dynasties also. So, I can say that I had a number of different hasphoes.

HN:Were they also from Yiddish music or Yiddish folksong or any of that? Or was it really all from religious sources for you?

BZS:Well, I did listen to a lot of recordings of Yiddish music also. So, I can't say that that wasn't a factor.

HN:And probably klezmorim [klezmer musicians] playing and all that, all that. Sure.

BZS:Yeah, sure. And then, you heard there were -- stuff at weddings, where they played Hasidic stuff from different dynasties also.

HN:Sure.

BZS:So, I mean, these are all things that you never really can pinpoint. But actually, it's --

HN:Right, right. It's all in there.

BZS:-- it's up to somebody else that -- to make those determinations.

HN:To figure it out.

BZS:To figure it out, yeah. (Netsky laughs) So, I have stuff that I actually composed, like, in 1942 already, and it's already pretty complicated stuff. And it's pieces that could be -- that can be sung with a choir -- it'd have to be arranged, of course. But I thought very -- my mind was very much in choir music because I myself was in a choir, and I had the experience of singing with a choir. So, a lot of my music was inspired by traditional choir music, you know?

HN:Sure, sure. I mean, how did you come to write these things which became really known by everyone? So, like --

BZS:In 1943, I was chosen by the dean of the school -- he decided to open up a 54:00-- like sort of a summer seminar.

HN:This is a yeshiva? Or --

BZS:That was a yeshiva and yeshiva-plus. His mind actually was working on training people that would later become teachers of -- religious teachers in the yeshivas. And for some reason or other, he picked me as one of the students in the yeshiva to go to that seminar in Spring Valley. So, I spent a whole summer there, 1943. There was a yeshiva, we studied, we had to learn gemore [Talmud], everything else, but -- and he had lecturers coming in, how to -- lectures that taught you how to speak publicly, public speakers; lectures on hashkofe [life 55:00outlook], muser [morals] -- I mean, there was all -- everything. He had a full day. We had a -- well, it was sort of like a camp also. We had leisure time also.

HN:These are the different kinds of philosophical ways of --

BZS:Right.

HN:-- putting together Jewish learning.

BZS:Yeah. And this was supposed to be training for people that would later become teachers. I never really had in mind becoming a teacher. That's the truth of the matter. But he invited me there, and I was part of the group. I think there were about thirty-five boys at that time. And there was one evening I was -- I took a walk with one of my best friends, who today is a very, very famous rabbi in Borough Park, Rabbi Moshe Wolfson. He has a congregation there. We have about three hundred congregants every Shabbos. And he speaks for them. He's really a very -- became very, very famous in Borough Park now. And everybody 56:00knows about him. Right now, he's in Israel. Every summer he goes to Israel. He has a group in Israel that he -- he became almost like a rebbe, you know? He was my best friend. We were both together there. So, we're taking a walk, and I sing to myself a melody, (sings wordlessly) as we were walking. (sings wordlessly) So, Moshe says to me, "What is that?" I say, "I don't know." I was making it up as we were walking. He said, "It sounds great. Keep on going." So, I keep on going. And after I -- there was two parts to it. (sings wordlessly) I sang it to him as we were walking. He says, "I got the words for that." He says, (sings) "Hamavdil beyn koydesh l'khoyl, khatoseynu hu yimkhoyl./Zareynu v'khaspeynu, 57:00yarbe kakhoyl, v'khakekhoyvim baloyl [Hebrew: The one who distinguishes between the holy and the daily, may He erase our sins./May our children and our wealth multiply like the sand and the stars of the night]." I have it recorded on the first Modzitzer record.

HN:Very first one, huh? Yeah.

BZS:I want to tell you something. It was a very daring thing for me to do, to put on the first Modzitzer record, put on one of my own.

HN:Yeah! (laughs)

BZS:It was not my idea.

HN:Very interesting. (laughs)

BZS:When this guy Stambler heard me singing it, he says, "I want this piece on this record." (laughter) He says, "It's such a gorgeous piece; you got to put it on." You don't have the original ten-inch.

HN:I'm sorry that I don't have it.

BZS:I probably do have it, but I have to go --

HN:I'm sure I do have it; I just grabbed what I --

BZS:-- I have to go looking for it, which --

HN:-- what was obvious.

BZS:-- would be a very difficult thing to do right now.

HN:So, you sing that right on that first recording.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:And so, people heard you!

BZS:That was 1943.

HN:Now, you credited yourself, I assume, on the recording --

BZS:Yes, yes, yeah.

HN:-- therefore, people now knew you were also a composer.

BZS:Yeah. So, that was my first public announcement, really. (laughter)

HN:Yes. Wow. And then, how did "Mizmor l'dovid" come about?

BZS:Oh, that's another story. In 1946, my father decided to take a trip to what was then Palestine -- it wasn't called Israel. He had a brother that he -- when he left Europe in 1921, he left a mother and a whole bunch of siblings, sisters and two brothers. One brother managed to trav-- to make aliyah to what was then Palestine in 1935. He was the only one that was left after the war. All of my 59:00father's family was decimated: his mother, his sisters, his other brother that he had, the younger brother that he had, they were all decimated. So, in '35 -- in '46, after the war, he decided he has to take a trip to Palestine to meet his brother, to see his brother. He hasn't seen him since 1921. And he decided he's gonna take me along. I was his companion -- which I was very happy to do, of course. It was the summer of 1946. And my thoughts were, perhaps when I come to Palestine, to join the yeshiva there, maybe study there. I wasn't sure what I want to do yet. I was still in the yeshiva over -- I didn't -- hadn't left the yeshiva (UNCLEAR). So, my mind -- I mean, I did not know what exactly was gonna 60:00happen. But I was going along for the trip. And his plan was to stay there for -- be in erets-yisroel [land of Israel] for about -- for all of the rest of the summer till after Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and then come home. What happened was at Rosh Hashanah we davened by the rebbe's son, who later became rebbe. He was the rov [Orthdox rabbi] of the Modzitz in Tel Aviv. I spent a lot of time with him also, conversing with him. He was very, very interesting person. At that time, he was not rebbe yet, so he was approachable. He was very approachable. I used to come to -- whenever I was in Tel Aviv, I used to sit there for hours conversing with him. And he was a composer -- at that time already, when his father -- in the lifetime of his father, he was already 61:00composing on his own already. At that time, I notated everything he composed until I left erets-yisroel. So, I have about fifty of his that he composed. Some of them became very, very well known. I don't know if you ever heard the [fritses?], like (sings wordlessly) -- beautiful waltz -- (sings wordlessly) -- it has this -- we have -- one of the pieces that we have on the recordings that I had was his before he became rebbe. "Loy Sevoyshi, Lo sevoshi

ve'lo sikal'mi mah tish-to-cha-chi umah te-hemi (In your redemption you will not 62:00be shamed, you will not be downcast, you will not be defamed).

It's a very popular song -- when you go into shuls Friday night, you can very easily -- you hear either David Werdyger's "Loy Sevoyshi (sings), or you hear this. Those are the alternates that people sing.

HN:Yeah. And this was from the rebbe in Israel.

BZS:The rebbe in Israel before he became rebbe yet.

HN:Because you wrote it down and --

BZS:Yeah. I brought it to America and I --

HN:Brought it to America.

BZS:And then, I --

HN:-- recorded it.

BZS:-- recorded it.

HN:Recorded it. Yeah. Wow. So -- yeah. So, you were gonna tell us maybe about "Mizmor L'David" also.

BZS:Okay. "Mizmor L'David" -- this was after my father left the country, right after Yom Kippur. He had to get back; he had a business; he had -- he could-- and we decided that I'm gonna stay on. I have to make up my mind. Either I'll be 63:00going into a yeshiva -- if I go into yeshiva, then I'll be staying there permanently. If I don't, then I'll come back. And one Shabbos, I decided to go to Haifa to visit my uncle. That was one of the shabosim that -- my father was -- when my father was there, we used to spend shabosim together. Either we were in Tel Aviv, so we stayed in a hotel, but we spent -- each shabosim by the future rebbe, you know? (laughs) We davened there. We'd eat the meals over there. But since he left and I was on my own, so I decided one Shabbos to go and visit my uncle. And during the afternoon, I was not feeling well. I had a little bit of a cold; my throat was hurting me. So, I decided I won't go to daven 64:00minkhe [afternoon prayer]; I'll stay home and I'll eat the shale-shudes in my aunt's house. My uncle went to daven, and I stayed there. And as I was sitting and eating shale-shudes, I opened up the siddur to "Mizmor l'dovid" -- the melody came to me. (singing) "Mizmor l'dovid,/Hashem ro-i lo echsar./Binot desheh yarbitzeini, al mei menoches yenahaleini. [Hebrew: A Psalm of David,/The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want./He has me lie down in green pastures, He leads me beside the still waters.]" And I'm sitting there, and I keep on going and going and going. I say, "Wow. This sounds great. This is not -- like, how do you remember this? It's Shabbos; I can't write it down; I can't do any--" It wasn't too bad. It was only, like, a half hour before you can make havdole. So, I -- as I kept repeating it so I shouldn't forget it, kept repeating it, repeating it. I was there all by myself. My aunt wasn't even sitting there. She --

HN:All three parts?

BZS:All three parts. Just came and --

HN:Wow! (laughs)

BZS:You know, that's the best way to compose, believe me.

HN:Oh yes. Just don't stop.

BZS:When it comes, when it flows -- same thing with the Hamavdil [hymn chanted at the close of Shabbos]. Also came in one sitting. Without having to go back and repeating and --

HN:And so, you remembered and wrote it down right after Shabbos?

BZS:So, it was after Shabbos. I made -- I took a piece of paper and wrote it down. I wish I would have found -- I could find that piece of paper. (laughter) They didn't have any --

HN:Made some lines --

BZS:They didn't have any --

HN:-- no music paper, right?

BZS:-- they didn't have any music paper. I made my lines --

HN:Made some lines real quick, and you wrote it down.

BZS:Yeah, I do that very often.

HN:Must have been about three page-- I mean, it's a long melody!

BZS:Yeah --

HN:(sings) The whole thing. Every -- the whole -- wow. That's fantastic.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Wow.

BZS:It's interesting, when I did the -- on Sunday night after the Shabbos, I 66:00came into Tel Aviv, and I went up to the rebbe's house a time -- to the future rebbe -- and he had people there, one of them who actually was a composer in his own right, a -- he was a businessman, but he was very, very talented man. And I became very close with him. In fact, I consider -- one of my hashpaot [Hebrew: influences] comes from this man also. I mean, it's hard for me to explain it, but I -- in my own mind, I -- 'cause I listened to a lot of his -- I used to be there for shale-shudes; he used to sing, and I picked up a lot of his melodies. And I thought they were excellent. They were very musical. Person that never studied music, I couldn't get over the fact that they were so musical sounding. He listened to a lot of classical music, that I know. So, obviously he got ideas. He was a very good friend of Yankel Talmud, incidentally. Yankel Talmud 67:00used to come up to this rebbe also, although he was a Gerrer. Used to come for Sha-- I met him over there also the first time. I have a story with him also. (laughs) Another story. So, when I -- the Sunday night that I was up -- I came up to the rebbe's house, and we were schmoozing over there about many different things, saying something. Then, this fellow, Shmuel Rosenbach, his name was, asked me, "Ben Zion, did you compose anything in erets-yisroel?" So, I say, "As a matter of fact, yes." He says, "Let me hear something." Said, "It happened just yesterday," I said. And I had the piece of paper with nigunim on it, otherwise I wouldn't have remembered it. (laughter) Took it out of my pocket, you know, and I started singing it. And this man just became so dumbfounded. He 68:00says, "I can't believe it. I can't believe it," he says. "This melody is gonna become a very, very famous melody," he says. I mean, here's a guy that does -- it's gonna -- "The whole world's gonna sing this," he says. So, as a guy, 1946, I looked at him, I said, Well, the guy's crazy. What the -- are you talking about?

HN:(laughs) Amazing. Wow. And how about "Eyshes khayil [Woman of valor]"?

BZS:"Eyshes khayil" came after I was married already. This was after I --

HN:Well, that's good! So, obviously you were happy with her. (laughs)

BZS:Yeah, I was very happy. My wife happened to be an unusual person. She really recently passed away.

HN:Yeah, I heard. I'm sorry.

BZS:It was Pesach night, she --

HN:God. Was it sudden, or --

BZS:No, she was very sick.

HN:She was sick for a while, right?

BZS:She was sick for a couple of years, actually.

HN:Oh, I'm sorry.

BZS:I mean, she had what we call -- nowadays known as Alzheimer's. They called 69:00it -- they had a different name for it, but it was almost the same thing.

HN:It was a dementia of some sort.

BZS:Dementia. But she also had developed when we -- she went to the hospital, she developed something with her lungs. I mean, that's why we had to take her --

HN:Oh, so it was a long, long --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- protracted. But you wrote that after you were married.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:And then, you began -- it became so popular. Everybody --

BZS:Became --

HN:Yeah. That's amazing. Can you -- we skipped Saul Taub.

BZS:Well, Saul Taub is the rebbe, rebbe Shaul.

HN:That is the rebbe. Okay, I wasn't --

BZS:That is the rebbe that we're talking about. I hadn't mentioned his name, but --

HN:So, that's who it is --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- this rebbe, this --

BZS:Yeah. He was a rebbe that I became close to --

HN:I see.

BZS:-- when he came to --

HN:So, he became (UNCLEAR) --

BZS:-- he arrived as a refugee.

HN:-- inspiration also.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:But he was -- was he from a Modzitzer background or --

BZS:Well, he himself was a Modzitzer rebbe.

HN:The Modzitzer rebbe was reb-- was Saul Taub.

BZS:Yeah, but he lived in Otwock, because they abandoned Modrzyce during the 70:00First World War already. Of course, Modrzyce had a Russian fortress over there, right next to it. And that's where they -- they couldn't stay there for too long because the army was actually based over there. So, even the -- his father, the one that -- do you know the story with Ezkero? Do you have --

HN:No.

BZS:Oh, you haven't? That's one story that should be told. I mean, it's --

HN:Tell it. I mean --

BZS:We're talking about his father, Rabbi Yisrael Taub of -- originally of Modrzyce. Let me tell you that story before we -- before I go into --

HN:Sure. Of course.

BZS:In 1913, Rabbi Yisrael Taub, who developed a very, very bad case of diabetes and had sores on his legs, openings on his legs, which had gangrene, was forced 71:00to leave Poland and go to Germany for an operation for -- they had to remove his leg. It was so bad already. So, it was 1913 that he came there. And he spent in 1913 to -- after the war broke out -- 1914, when the war broke out -- he came during the end of 1913 and stayed over until they were -- I think the war broke out in July 1914, I think. He had to leave Berlin then also. He had to go back to Poland, but he couldn't go back to his city anymore, 'cause the war was -- that's where the war was mostly -- with the Germans, when they came into Poland, they were fighting in that area. So, he had to -- at that time, he went first to one city, and then later he went to Warsaw. But we're talking about when he was in Berlin. In Berlin, he had his leg amputated. Now, [was not an easy?] 72:00situation. He did not want any -- he didn't want to be put to sleep, in other words. Could you imagine some--

HN:No anesthetic.

BZS:No anesthetic. And the surgeon said, "How can I make the surgery without you being put to sleep? It just -- impossible." The reason he didn't want to be put to sleep 'cause it seems that they felt that anesthesia affected the mind. That's what they -- the early stage of anesthesia, the people thought that it had an effect on the mind. Maybe they had some experience in that way. And he didn't want to have his mind affected. So, he went through an operation where -- removal of part of his leg without anesthesia. And at the same time, he composed a very famous composition that goes for thirty-six parts. I can't believe that 73:00he composed the whole thing at that point.

HN:While his leg was being amputated?

BZS:Yeah.

HN:What?

BZS:To take his mind off the pain that he's in.

HN:What composition is it? This is --

BZS:It's called "Ezkero elokim ve'amoyeh [Ezkerah Elokim Ve'e'hemayah, Hebrew: I remember you, God, and I shudder]."

HN:Wow.

BZS:It's a prayer that we say in the Neilah services, Neilah of Yom Kippur.

HN:Sure, the end of Yom Kippur.

BZS:It's "Ezkero elokim ve'amoyeh" "I remember you, God, and I shudder --"biroysi kol ir al tiloh b'nuyoh"-- when I see every city in the world built on its highest pedestal --" "v'ir elokim" "-- and the city of God --"mishpeles ad shiol takatiyoh" "-- down to its lowest depths." City of God is -- down to its lowest depths.

HN:Submerged. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

BZS:And he based a composition of thirty-six parts on this thing. Now, I -- it's 74:00very hard for me to believe that he could have done all the thirty-six parts. How could he possibly remember all the thirty-six parts? But he did a good part of it during this operation, that's for sure.

HN:Is this something that you wrote down later from -- was his son rem--

BZS:Yeah, Weisser was the one that notated it.

HN:Weisser wrote it down. Oh, wow.

BZS:And it was printed also in the -- they put out a book by Geshuri later in -- it was in 1948 or so, I think. And I brought him the -- I brought that time the music that I -- we had to put it on the -- where they had -- where they printed at that time on blocks. So, I brought the music itself; then they put it onto blocks. But when I came there in '46, I met with Geshuri, and I gave him all the -- I gave him not only that, I gave him all -- everything that was printed in these booklets that we put out every year. That's including stuff that I wrote 75:00that I notated, and stuff that Weisser notated. Everything was there. And they put out a book --

HN:In Israel. This is all in Israel.

BZS:Yeah, in Israel.

HN:Fantastic. Wow.

BZS:But the idea that he was able to compose a mel-- more than a melody -- it's not a melody; it's a chant; it's a -- you can call it anything you want. I mean, this is unbelie-- I only sing it -- during the year I sing it once, on the day of his yortsayt [anniversary of death].

HN:Oh, wow.

BZS:Yeah. Because he said -- so this was -- I actually -- will, his will and testament. He did not want this to become spread out. He didn't want anybody to -- I mean, I would imagine that he would -- if he knew anything about recording at that time, he would say, I didn't want nobody to record it. He wanted to be --

HN:So, it shouldn't be recorded; it should be --

BZS:Kept --

HN:Yes, in a special --

BZS:-- in the confines of his own people.

HN:His own people. Yes, yes, yes. Well, that's --

BZS:I'll tell you, we had a situation where we had people that -- professional musicians that wanted to put a -- make a symphony out of it. And when I asked -- we asked the rebbe in erets-yisroel, he says, "My grandfather did not want it that way." He says, "I'm not gonna go --" -- I mean, even though it would be a -- something that -- for the world to hear. They even approached Leonard Bernstein once. But he said, "I have no time for it," he said.

HN:Oh, well, that's too bad. He should have made time for that.

BZS:Yeah. Somebody managed to get to him. I don't know how he did it.

HN:Whoa. I mean, so you --

BZS:That time he was in Boston, I think, yet.

HN:Oh, really?

BZS:Yeah.

HN:When he was at Harvard, I imagine.

BZS:What?

HN:Yeah, yeah. Well, anyhow, I -- so you obviously have wanted, on the other hand -- have wanted people to experience Hasidic music.

BZS:Let me -- there's a footnote over here.

HN:Yes. Go ahead.

BZS:Before I decided to put out this record, the very first one, I had to get the blessing from the rebbe in erets-yisroel. I couldn't do it on my own. I had to ask him first. And at that time, you didn't make telephone calls like you make today. Any time I want to talk to Israel, I pick up the phone, I call, like I'm calling Borough Park, you know?

HN:It doesn't matter, right.

BZS:It's the same thing. Then, to call somebody in Israel -- I don't know -- I wonder whether they had a telephone even that time. I wasn't even sure you had a telephone yet. See, a telephone was very difficult to get around that time; they were very -- they were rationed, actually. So, I wrote him a letter. I wrote him a letter; I said, "I have this proposal. People are bothering me already for a long time. They want to put out a record of the Modzitzer nigunim, and I kept 78:00saying, 'No, no,' but then now, you know, they wore me down, and I -- and we're doing rehearsing, everything else. But I would like the rebbe to write me whether it's the proper thing to do." I didn't get an answer. He didn't -- he probably had a problem giving me a -- telling me what to do. If he says no, it will be a -- it means it's no. If he says yes, he has to think twice. To be the first one to put out a Hasidic record, you have to be -- you have to have broad shoulders, you know, to do it. So, he was afraid of that. So, I had somebody that traveled to Israel at that time, a good friend of mine, who knew the rebbe very well, and I said, "You have to bring back a yes or no answer. If he says no, I have to give it up. If he says yes, then we'll go ahead with it." Sure enough, he came back, and he'd -- they'd discussed it. This fellow was one of -- 79:00was in the choir also. He sang in the choir. Happened to be a very wonderful singer. He was a khazn-sheyni [lay cantor] in Manhattan later. So, he came back, and he'd discussed the whole thing. The rebbe told him exactly the pros and cons of the whole thing. And the rebbe said, "Yeah, sure, do it. Do it." He gave his blessing. And -- baruch hashem [thank G-d, lit. "blessed be the Name"]. I mean, this was the catalyst for more and more --

HN:For everybody. For everybody. For --

BZS:Everybody --

HN:-- Chabad did it after this.

BZS:Chabad did it after.

HN:I mean, it's kind of unbelievable, in a way, that Modzitz was out before Chabad because --

BZS:Was -- played the pioneer.

HN:-- Chabad was supposed to be the ones that were --

BZS:Yeah. And Chabad did it because the same people that worked on -- the Stamblers, they were the ones that did the Chabad record, the first Chabad record.

HN:Ah, so they were also going to Chabad and to their melave-malke --

BZS:Yeah. And they were privy to Weisser being -- notating it. So, it was like 80:00one big --

HN:So, they were all pioneers in that.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Velvel wasn't doing this yet, right? He was later.

BZS:Velvel did it later. Velvel --

HN:He was later.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:He was just a music teacher in Hebrew schools, I think --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:-- at that point. Wow. Well, the other thing, though, that you did, I think, that I would credit you for anyhow is the whole style of -- it's not -- because it's not just chanting because, of course, on the Chabad records or on David Werdyger's records, they sing very differently than you.

BZS:I know.

HN:And so, there's a way that you did these in a very relaxed kind of way.

BZS:Yeah, I'll tell you, I wanted to have it sound a little classical also. I didn't want it to sound very provincial, you know?

HN:Yeah. Yeah, you wanted it to -- but at the same time, it's very accessible, as almost like --

BZS:To come out to the world. We're facing a world. It's not gonna be only for 81:00our own people. This is the stuff that's eventually gonna be heard by people that enjoy classical music, enjoy all kind of music. And this has to be presentable.

HN:Because it's interesting, because, I mean, a lot of the nigunim -- for example, Werdyger, when he sings nigunim, I think sings them in a cantorial style, kind of.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:He sings them like he's, oh -- you know, like, very much -- it's a formal style; it's an older style; it's a Polish style. You sing them, I feel like, in a very innovative kind of American way, in a sense. At the same time, like you're saying, you're saying you're imitating hearing good classical singing also.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:But the koloratur is all there also. There's this beautiful ornament. So, I feel like you kind of invented this style, in a way. Are there any particular inspirations for that? Were there singers who you listened to?

BZS:Well, I mean, I listened to all the khazonim. There's no doubt about that. I listened to Yiddish singers, Sidor Belarsky or -- I mean, at that time you heard 82:00the -- Lebedeff; you heard the -- all these people that --

HN:Leibele Waldman was also --

BZS:Leibele Waldman had --

HN:He could do that too.

BZS:Yeah, he sang a lot of Yiddish songs, actually.

HN:Yes. Yes. Yes, he did, and I -- and also when Yossele -- I suppose Yossele --

BZS:Yossele, yeah.

HN:-- would be your first influence.

BZS:That's my first influence, really.

HN:Yeah. And when he sang a folksong, he sang it like a folksong. That makes sense. That makes sense.

BZS:Mordechai Hershman sang -- beautifully sang folksongs. You have the dudl [little tune] that -- you're using now?

HN:I stole many things from it on my new recording, actually.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

HN:So, the question that -- the question is, Why is it important to collect -- you at a fairly early age decided it was important to collect and write down these Modzitzer nigunim, and why is that important?

BZS:Well, I felt at an early age that this is music that really should be preserved. There's no doubt. Especially now that we have the means of doing it. 83:00At one time, it was very difficult. Only preservation was where you notated it. Now, we have all different technology that you can record it and have it for posterity. I mean, there's no doubt that it's something -- a big contribution to music in general, and Jewish music, of course. So, I thought it was very important to have this preserved.

HN:Now, can you talk a little bit more, by the way, about your family and what they did in terms of what kind of line of work were they in or anything like that? You know, more about the family.

BZS:I did mention the fact that my father had a factory that manufactured sweaters. And I was part of that business. After I left yeshiva, that's where I had my own sustenance coming from. And I did mention to you about one part of my life, which I didn't mention before. As a young boy, after I was in the choir 84:00and everything, and I used to come to Yeshua Weisser, somebody -- I don't remember exactly how it came about, but I was asked to do a radio program for fifteen minutes every week on Jewish radio. I can't remember where -- which radio station it was either. I remember it was on Fulton Street, in Brooklyn. That's (laughs) the only thing I remember about it. The fact is, I would have to do it -- I had a program on -- first I had a program on Sunday, about twelve o'clock, which means I went to the yeshiva Sunday morning, and I would have to get permission to leave the class and go to this radio station, which was in downtown Brooklyn. So, I asked my rebbe, who later became the head of the 85:00yeshiva, Rabbi [Paum?]. He was my first class in (UNCLEAR) at that time. I was all about -- not even fourteen years old, thirteen and a half years old. So, I asked him if I could leave for a few hours and then -- so he said, "You know, I can't give you that permission. You should go to the dean, Rabbi [Menlowitz?]." Which I did. And I told him the -- I told him what it's all about. So, he was a very -- he was a fellow at -- I said later who organized the seminar we had in the summer in 1943. But he was a very religious, serious person. But he knew the world also. He was somebody -- he knew that there are things in the world that you have to do. He said, "There's only one way I'm giving you permission. For number one, you gotta come back to the second seder. Secondly, I don't want you to spend time over there. You go there, do your job, and come right home. Don't spend any time in the studio there." So, I promised that that's what I'm gonna do.

HN:Wow. That's very interesting.

BZS:And I kept up. So, I used to take the trolley (laughs) on -- which was not far -- on the Bridge Plaza, right near the yeshiva. And that trolley would take me to downtown Brooklyn. It took about maybe a half hour to get there. And I used to come walk in there practically about ten minutes before my show was on. And I didn't have time to rehearse with the person that was accompanying me on the piano. But I brought him the music, and the fellow was a very good musician. Weisser wrote the music. Sometimes I brought him a Jewish -- a Yiddish song that (UNCLEAR) -- Sholom Secunda song or Abe Ellstein. And we had printed music at that time, and he was able to do these things. I didn't need any rehearsal. And this went on for a couple of months, actually, that -- then my voice was starting to change already, starting to get -- it was a little tough for me. So, I gave it up. But it was a good -- and as I said, the Barry sisters, then known 87:00as the Bagelman sisters -- they probably were -- at that time, they were probably about nineteen or twenty years old or so. And they had a fifteen-minute spot or half-hour spot either right before me or right after me, I can't remember that. (laughs)

HN:That's amazing.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:You sang all kinds of music, it sounds like.

BZS:Yeah. Well, I didn't sing Hasidic music at that time.

HN:Not Hasidic music. So, you were singing --

BZS:But I would sing a khazonish piece I would sing, 'cause --

HN:You would sing khazonish.

BZS:-- Weisser used to be (UNCLEAR), in fact.

HN:Ah!

BZS:Yeah.

HN:So, he would tell you what to sing.

BZS:He would say that this song would be good, nice Yiddish song. I sang -- in fact, I have a recording -- it's the only recording I have of myself as a thirteen-year-old -- of Weisser's song, called "Alter khazn [The old cantor]."

HN:Uh-huh. It's his most famous song.

BZS:That's probably his most famous song. I think maybe Hershman I think recorded it also, I think. So, he went down with me to the studio to do -- to play the piano, to accompany me on it. It was his idea, actually.

HN:It was --

BZS:It was the only recording I have of my young age.

HN:Thirteen. Wow.

BZS:Yeah. And it was played on the radio already. There's a fellow -- you probably know who it is -- used to have his own radio program, now he does it all on internet.

HN:Oh. Huh.

BZS:Oh, come on. I can't remember --

HN:Jewish radio?

BZS:Yeah. What's his name again? I don't know.

HN:The guy with the Jewish radio. Oh, that's interesting. Now he does it on the internet -- oh, that guy, the guy with the -- Winston Weilheimer? The guy that does the Nusach Radio? No, Nusa-- no, not that guy.

BZS:No, no, no, no, you'll know who it is. With a "B."

HN:Oh, with a "B." Okay. Wait a minute. On his own -- it's a Jewish radio show.

BZS:He did it -- he did a Khamotsi khazones [Hamotzi melody], actually.

HN:Okay. He used to be -- well, it used to be Barry Serota, but he died.

BZS:Barry Serota is not here anymore.

HN:He died.

BZS:I know Barry Serota.

HN:It used to be --

BZS:No, this guy -- I can't think of his name.

HN:I don't know, I'm not remembering either.

BZS:I'm having a senior moment right now.

HN:I'm sorry! (laughter) That's not that important. It's not that important.

BZS:No, but you -- I'm sure when I tell you the name, you'll know who it is.

HN:But you gave him a recording, and he actually played it on his show.

BZS:He had an -- he did an -- interview me on the show. And when I told him I have a recording when I was thirteen years old --

HN: -- "I have to have it."

BZS:-- he says, "I have to have that." (Netsky laughs) I think he used it again. But now he's doing an internet show just once a week.

HN:Interesting.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:I don't know. I don't listen to it, so I'm not sure. Barry Reisman.

BZS:What?

HN:Barry Reisman?

BZS:No.

HN:No. No. Not him. Okay. I thought I figured it out.

BZS:It's his second name was a B. Oh, God. Okay. I'm --

HN:That's fascinating. Okay. And then, the other question I suppose is just, so what about the next generation of this after you? Obviously, there's some way that I think Carlebach must have been somewhat inspired by you, maybe? Or do you have --

BZS:We were --

HN:-- do you have any relationship with --

BZS:I had a very strong relationship with Carlebach. We went to the same school the same time. We were actually almost the same age, I think, in fact. But he was a brilliant fellow, I mean, a very brilliant fellow. In his studies, he was 90:00unbelievable. And I --- the time when we were very good friends, I never would dream that at one time he'd be so prolific in the composing. He never even showed that talent even.

HN:Wow. Yeah, he just -- it just poured out of him, (UNCLEAR).

BZS:I mean, I found out eventually. I found out that that's what he's doing. But when we were very good friends, he used -- he'd come to my house and record -- and was at the time when I spent -- actually, my honeymoon in Lakewood with my wife, we were there for about ten days, and he was studying in Lakewood at that time in the yeshiva. So, he would come every day, beyn hastorim, between the morning session and afternoon session, which is about two hours between two and four. He would come to the hotel, we'd go over to our piano, and he would sit and record. That's what he wanted. (UNCLEAR) actually record another thing and 91:00another thing and a--

HN:So, he -- were -- learned the nigunim from you!

BZS:Yeah, he learned nigunim from me. It's true.

HN:He learned nigunim from you. And then, he was inspired from that.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Ah. Well, there you go. I --

BZS:And this was before he ever sat -- ever even composed a song of his own.

HN:So, this is obviously what he comes -- came from. I mean --

BZS:Well, he has a lot of inspiration from Modzitz, also.

HN:I really wondered about that because --

BZS:Yeah. I pinpoint actually parts of his melodies that come right out of Modzitz, right -- there --

HN:Any examples you can remember?

BZS:I know --

HN:(UNCLEAR).

BZS:-- I tell you, I remember, when he put out this first recording, he had a "Mimkomcha [Hebrew: From your place]" on there, which had -- it was a very nice piece as a composition. But he had at least two or three references there to Modzitzer nigunim.

HN:Wow.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Interesting. And people -- Yom Tov Ehrlich -- any relationship?

BZS:Yom Tov Ehrlich was -- I knew him very well also. Yom Tov Ehrlich was mostly 92:00a poet, really. It was poetry. Whether he actually --

HN:He was like a batkhn [wedding entertainer] almost, right?

BZS:He was a batkhn -- yeah, he was like a ba-- he used to do batkhones [improvised wedding entertainment] at weddings. I remember when he did it. Sure. I remember very well. He had his own little orchestra at one point. Yeah, he made his own orchestra. I used to see him very often. And he was -- I don't know whether he actually composed his own melodies or he took them from different sources. I'm not sure about what he -- why --

HN:Some are rip-offs exactly of Yiddish theater songs.

BZS:Yeah, it was --

HN:I mean, like, totally. (laughs) No, absolutely. And some of them are original. I mean, it's hard to say.

BZS:Yeah. No, he was very talented person, very talented.

HN:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Then, there was -- there's a general question you wanted about what to pass on to the next generation or something of that -- what wa--

CHRISTA WHITNEY: Sure, but can I first ask --

HN:Yes.

CW:-- can you just tell -- like, to give background a little about where your family came from and --

HN:Yes, can you tell where your family came from in Europe?

BZS:Okay, yeah.

HN:Yes.

CW:It's out of order, but --

HN:Yes, it's fine. Well, no, we edit, so it'd be great. That would be great to have that, 'cause we -- yeah. It couldn't have started with the shirt factory, the sweater factory. (laughs)

BZS:No, it didn't start with that at all. My father, olev-asholem [may he rest in peace], came from a very, very small town in Poland. It was near a bigger city. It was, like, in the area of Lublin. Lublin was the main city in that area. It was a county seat or something. And my father came from a city called Biskovitz, which I don't think is on a map of Poland even today. It was like a village, a little village. And also bordered with a city that did become a little famous -- among Jews, anyway: Chelm. You ever hear of Chelm?

HN:Yes. (laughs)

BZS:How could you have not heard of it?

HN:Of course. Everyone's heard of Chelm.

BZS:My mother was born in Chelm, so you can imagine. My father came from a town which was just very, very close to it, this Biskovitz. And so, my father married my mother because he was close to the -- to Chelm there. That's where the shidekh [arranged marriage] came about. And it was a -- Biskovitz was like a one-horse town, put it that way. And my grandmother -- my father became -- lost his father at a very young age. I think it was before his bar mitzvah, even. So, my grandmother was a widow, and she had to bring home the -- so to speak -- bring home the -- bread on the table, you know? My father was the oldest son. And when he was about thirteen years old, he used to go on the rounds with her. She was like a customer peddler, going to the people, gentiles, in the old 95:00neighborhood. And they would order something; she would bring it to them. They had customer peddlers, Jewish customer peddlers, in America here also at one time. It was very popular occupation at one time. But in Europe that was very -- it was -- the farmers didn't have any access to buy anything, either. And she would manage to go to the bigger city and buy what they want; she would take an order and bring it to them. And she was -- that's what -- and that's how she made her living from. So, it so happens that she would come to Chelm to do business, and she saw my mother, and she said she wanted this girl for my father. So, she was the shatkhn [matchmaker], actually. (laughs) And that's the way it happened.

HN:That's really great.

BZS:Yeah. So, when -- my father was actually -- he was a draft dodger with the Polish army. At that time, the Jewish boys were very, very afraid to go to the 96:00army. They didn't want to get involved with the army. And they tried to get out. So, he was in hiding. He was -- you know, he -- till finally they -- my grandfather, who was in America already, my mother's father -- who arrived here in 1914 -- got all the papers for his family to take his family out. He had left a wife and about six children in Europe. So, he managed to put all the -- get all the papers that were needed to bring them out. And they came in 1921. My father was -- they were married, but when he came here, he came on a different name. He came on a -- on my mother's maiden name, as a brother, because he was in hiding before he left for the -- left the country. (laughs) So, it seemed 97:00that there was a brother that passed away at a very young age, and they used that name. There wasn't any records in the -- to show that this boy had passed away or anything, so they used that name.

HN:And that's how he got out.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:That's amazing.

BZS:It's my mother that was very musical, they say. My father was to an extent also musical, but not to -- my mother was really very musical. She had a very beautiful voice, a very, very soft, beautiful voice. So, I think that's where I inherited my musical talent.

HN:Were there musicians also in her family or --

BZS:They told me -- I mean, I don't know exactly -- she had a brother that sang in the opera here in New York. What he sang in the opera chorus or he sang in -- or -- but that's what she told me. Actually, it was before that that she came to America, 'cause that brother was here earlier, and he passed away at a young age 98:00also. So, she never heard him sing. But that was just -- the family knew that that was his means of livelihood, singing in the opera. I don't think it was the Metropolitan Opera. I'm sure there was other operas too that he could sing.

HN:Wow. So, there was a lot of music, obviously.

BZS:Yeah. But it was -- I know my grandfather was not musical, my grandmother's father. My grandmother didn't seem to be musical either. But the only one of the family that really was musical was my mother, actually.

HN:Yeah, yeah. And you -- did you work as a cantor or -- officially, at some point?

BZS:Well, I was always the bal-tfile [leader of prayer], put it.

HN:The bal-tfile.

BZS:The bal-tfile. I was not a professional cantor. In Modzitz, when we -- we had a shtibl. We had a shtibl in Crown Heights; then we had a shtibl in -- we have it now in Flatbush over here. I stopped davening yomim-neroim, High Holy 99:00Days, when I -- not feeling well anymore, when I had a problem with my -- cardiological problem. So, I -- the doctor said, "I don't think it's a good idea to -- it's too much of a stress, you know. Too much -- you have to use --" -- but I still -- to this very day, I bentsh rosh khoydesh [say the blessings on the first of the month, lit. "bless the head of the month"] every rosh khoydesh, small things that don't require standing too long on my legs.

HN:Special things. Yeah. Yeah, but --

BZS:I bentsh Tal [Hebrew: dew], I bentsh Geshem [Hebrew: rain].

HN:Uh-huh.

BZS:Yeah. That is still -- but Yom -- the High Holidays, the only thing I do do is I prepare the nigunim for the -- we have a -- somebody that came from Israel who knows the nusekh of Modzitz. He knows it well. And he took over when I stopped doing it. He's an Israeli, he was born in Israel, but he was brought up in -- by the Modzitz -- by the rebbe. So, he knows the nusekh pretty well, and 100:00we -- for the last eight or nine years, he's been doing it. But I prepare all the song, all the nigunim. We have a little -- I prepare a little choir before we get together, before Rosh Hashanah, and we -- this house (UNCLEAR) to represent all the nigunim. They study it. They make -- they have copies of it on tape.

HN:Wow. That's a lot of work still. Wow.

BZS:Yeah. That's what we do. It's every yontev [holiday]. I'm hoping to be able to compose something for this year too. I haven't done it yet.

HN:And you compose new pieces.

BZS:New material. When I -- I hope to be going on vacation in August, so maybe that's when I'll have more time on my hands.

HN:Wow. And you still write them down, yeah, yeah?

BZS:Yeah, well, now I write 'em down, sure.

HN:And did you finish rabbinical training also at the --

BZS:Yes, I --

HN:-- you got smikhe [rabbinical ordination] at some point.

BZS:-- I have smikhe too, yeah.

HN:Yeah, obviously.

BZS:I never practiced the rabbinate, however.

HN:But all those years in yeshiva, I would think you --

BZS:Yeah.

HN:That's fantastic. And then, there was something about passing something along 101:00to the --

CW:Oh, yeah. Well, just to close, if you have a message that you'd like to pass on to the next generation.

BZS:I'll tell you, I -- my children are all females. I have three daughters, all very musical. Every one of them, when they were in schools, they led the choirs over there. Every -- all three of them. And of course, they knew that Ben Zion Shenker's daughters are musical and that -- and they automatically became the choir leaders. And I remember hearing them with -- by their graduations and everything else. But, you know, they can't do anything professionally because women in our society don't --

HN:Well, in the -- particularly the Orthodox society. But, of course, in other --

BZS:Well, yeah, in other societies --

HN:-- (UNCLEAR) --

BZS:-- but they're brought up by Orthodox. They were very --

HN:So, that's -- so they can lead choirs, and that's what --

BZS:Of their own, of women singers.

HN:Women choirs. Of course, of course. But for the generation -- message for -- 102:00what is that question? I always get it wrong. (laughs)

CW:Well, yeah, just that if you had a message that you want to leave for future generations.

HN:For future generations.

CW:An eytse [piece of advice].

HN:As if we're a time capsule. (laughs)

CW:An eytse.

HN:An eytse far di [advice for the] --

BZS:Oh, she has -- knows what an eytse is.

HN:-- di yungelayt [the younger people]. (laughs)

CW:Di kumedike doyres [The future generations].

HN:Di kumedike doyres, yeah.

BZS:Wow! She can speak Yiddish also.

HN:Yeah, yeah. She's the director -- she speaks better Yiddish than I do. (laughs)

BZS:That's wonderful. You should have got -- told me the story earlier. (laughter)

CW:We'll do it all again. (laughter)

HN:Oh, have you --

BZS:My advice for di yunge doyres [the younger generations] -- I'll tell you, you have very many young people going into music. I'm not very happy with some of the music we're getting. Really, I'm not happy with it. Some of it -- first of all, they're trying to imitate the music of the goyim. I mean --

HN:Popular music.

BZS:Popular music. And it doesn't rest well with me. I don't think that that's the type -- kind of music that we should foster, really. And that's -- they're doing that in Israel, doing the same thing. I mean, it's the -- and even over here, among Hasidim, among the Hasidim, even, they're copying all the forms -- rock and roll, and you have guys doing -- what do you call it now, with the --

HN:Rap.

BZS:Rap. I mean, where does rap come into Jewish music? Something I really can't see; I just can't see how -- and I'm trying -- I'm still traditional. I'm still trying to remain -- and people keep telling me, You gotta keep on recording your stuff, because that's the stuff that we want to remain with. We don't want to remain with this -- all this baloney.

HN:Yes, yes. Good, good for you. Is there a new -- any of your newer compositions that --

BZS:Well, that's what I want to do now with Andy.

HN:Oh, good! So, we'll hear those. Fantastic.

BZS:Andy's enthralled with some of the -- he sometimes -- he davens with us, you know. He's in our congregation. And when he hears new things he says, "You gotta record it! What are you sitting here waiting for it?" So --

HN:Oh, this is great!

BZS:-- I'm hoping that it will work out. I mean, I -- he didn't get back to me about the studio time, but -- it'll work out.

HN:No, it'll work.

BZS:He has another studio, which is where --

HN:Someone will -- yeah. He'll figure it out. That's great.

BZS:I mean, there are plenty of studios around that are looking for business.

HN:They need business. Everyone has these at home, and they just make the recordings on them. (laughs) So, of course.

BZS:Yeah.

HN:Good, are we -- we've covered everything that --

CW:Yeah.

HN:Wonderful. Thank you so much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]