BENZION MILLER ORAL HISTORY

HANKUS NETSKY:Anyhow, so maybe we should launch into this now for real, like, from the -- can you tell us about your beginnings and your family and how you got into all this?

BENZION MILLER:Oh, my beginnings. I don't know when I began, because I never knew anything else. I come from a family of cantors. My father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather. My sons, my grandchildren. We all sing. My brothers. It's a singing family. And ever since I can remember myself, I sang.

HN:What did they sing? Did they sing --

BM:Well, my father was a cantor in a synagogue. And he was also a composer of 1:00Hasidic music. He composed a lot of Hasidic melodies and compositions that are sung all throughout the Hasidic world.

HN:Can you sing any of those for us?

BM:Well, there's one thing that we made famous was the (sings melody) (singing) "Me'eyn oylam habo yom shabbos menucho [Ashkenazi Hebrew: The joy of rest on the Sabbath is like the joy of the world to come]" -- which Avraham Fried recorded afterwards. Avraham Fried then recorded several of my father's compositions -- "V'hi she'amdah [Hebrew: This is what has stood]," "Ki v'simcha [Hebrew: Happiness is the key]." And people singing my father's melodies -- they don't even know that it's his.

HN:Yeah, I mean, that's --

BM:Yeah, they sing it, but they don't know it's his.

HN:Can you say your father's name and --

BM:My father's name was cantor Aaron Miller. He was also a very famous moyel [ritual circumciser] here in New York. And he passed away twelve years ago. He 2:00came from Galicia, where Hasid-- Bobover Hasidim from back home, from the dates of the first Bobover rebbe -- that my great-grandfather went to.

HN:So, your family comes from Bobover Hasidism?

BM:Hasidim, right.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Yeah.

HN:And when did they come to New York?

BM:After World War II.

HN:Yeah. So, you were born in --

BM:I was born in a DP camp in Germany. Three of us: my older brother and my younger sister. And when my sister (UNCLEAR) was born, we came here in 1949. And ever since then, I'm here, except for the few years that I lived in Canada and the few years I was in yeshiva in Israel. But other than that, this is the home. Brooklyn. Yeah.

HN:So, how did you learn all this music?

BM:To tell you the truth, the funniest thing about it is that we didn't even have a record player -- you used to call a record player or a phonograph in our 3:00house. I don't know for what reason. We never had it. But there was Jewish radio. There was cantorial music and Jewish music and Israeli music on the radio every single day of the week, on WEVD. And when I wasn't in school, I was glued to that radio. And I used to pick up songs after hearing it once. So, when I heard a song once, I had it. Whether it was a melody, an Israeli tune, or it was a Yiddish song, or it was cantorial music -- I just picked it up, like that. And then later, as I got more into it and I got older and I decided -- well, decided -- I always wanted to be a cantor and a singer and a performer, because it came 4:00natural to me. And as a matter of fact, my father used to send me when I was a kid -- if he had to go do a job somewhere to sing and he wasn't feeling well or he was busy with something, he sent me. I was ten years old, I was going -- singing. Yeah.

HN:Can you tell us about some of your favorite performers or favorite inspirations back then, when you first were listening to the radio or from the community or anything? You know, singing?

BM:The truth is that -- I look at it as -- let's say food. Is there a favorite food? There is no favorite food. Today you like this; tomorrow you like this. And if you like steak, it doesn't mean you can't like chocolate. And if you like chocolate, it doesn't mean you can't like fruits. So, all singers inspired me. All cantors inspired me. I found something in everybody that I can use. And I 5:00can't say I have a favorite. I have a favorite for one style; I have a favorite for another style. So, in essence, they were all my favorites. It might sound a little odd that I don't have someone that I can say, "No, this is it." Although, everybody thinks that my favorite is Moshe Koussevitzky because I emulate him and I emulate the style. The truth is, I emulated that style before I knew the style. Because from my father, I learned to improvise. My father's davening was always different. It was never -- no two pieces the same. Because there was always improvisation.

HN:Can you give an example of that -- with, like, a paragraph or something that's like, what -- you know, something like, if it was plain and then more 6:00improvised? Like --

BM:Well, improvised -- you could take any prayer -- like, let's say "Shochen ad [Hebrew: He dwells in eternity]" on Shabbos morning. Where the regular -- (singing) "Shochen ad marom, v'kadosh sh'mo [Ashkenazi Hebrew: He resides up in the sky, and his name is holy]," you can go (sings with a different melody) "Shochen ad marom, v'kadosh sh'mo, shoykhen ad moroym, v'koydosh sh'moy [Ashkenazi Hebrew: You who inhabit eternity, Your name is exalted]." You can do whatever you want with it. And there's no limit. So, why be tied down to just going (sings) "Shochen ad marom, v'kadosh sh'mo"? Week in, week out. Week in, week out. (sings) "Shochen ad marom, v'kadosh sh'mo." It's boring. And the same thing as with a kdushe [key moment in group prayer when G-d's holiness is exalted], the same thing as with everything, if you're gonna say anything. So, I never prepare a davening. Because if I'll prepare, I won't say the same thing anyway. It wouldn't make a difference.

HN:Like, what's a kdushe that you would -- you know, like a --

BM:Except when we sing with the choir and I have to sing some choral compositions, I would stick to a choral composition. But when I'm not sticking to a choral composition, I do whatever I feel like.

HN:Yeah.

BM:(singing) "Mimkomkhoh malkeynu tsofia visimlokh aleynu ki mikholkim anakhnu lakh [Hebrew: From your heavenly abode, reveal yourself, oh our King, and reign over us, for we wait for you]." Then, I'll go, (singing) "Mimkomkhoh malkeynu tsofia visimlokh aleynu ki mikholkim anakhnu lokh." It doesn't matter.

HN:And every time it's different.

BM:Always different. But you stay -- you still stay in the mode. You have to remain in the mode. And what's most important is the meaning of the words.

HN:Yeah.

BM:And that's what leads you.

HN:Yeah, exactly. The tone painting of -- yeah.

BM:That's it. So, I'm not gonna cry where you have to be happy, and I'm not gonna be happy where you have to cry.

HN:Right. And if you're talking about a place -- a mysterious place--

BM:Exactly. It needs to be misterioso--

HN:(laughs)

BM:Right. Exactly.

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:This comes with a lot of years of practice. But I always based my style on improvisation.

HN:And your father also based his style on improvisation--

BM:Always. Always.

HN:And your grandfather? Do you know if he --

BM:Probably.

HN:-- also improvised?

BM:Yeah. Yeah.

HN:It's like the tradition of, say, Karniol.

BM:Yeah. Well, I look at it different. I think that improvisation comes from 9:00being at home and very familiar with the prayers. So, you feel like, you know, you're coming home. Like in your house, you don't have to stand on ceremony and watch everything you do, you know? So, you open up. You open up. You know where you're going. You know where you want to go. And the sky's the limit. You do whatever you want. Then, after doing all these improvisations for many years, one of my -- one of the cantors who later became my teacher, so to speak, khazn [synagogue cantor] Shmuel Taube --

HN:In Montreal?

BM:-- who I met in Montreal, correct -- said, "Hey, with your voice, you should sing Koussevitzky." And he started choosing pieces. "Learn this piece and learn 10:00that piece." "Aneinu [Hebrew: Answer us]" and "Habet Mishamayim U're [Hebrew: Look from heaven and see]" and then this one. Basically, I knew them a little bit -- you know, I listened to recordings and I knew it basically, but I never sat down to learn it exactly -- you know, with all the nuances that Moishe did or whatever, that Dovid did. So, I made up my own. And I'd always sing that different, too. I never sang the same piece the same way twice. It was the piece -- the frame of the piece. But I took a lot of liberties with the pieces. And --

HN:Could you give an example of that with Moshe Koussevitzky? Like, how he might do something and how you would change it?

BM:Well, take a simple thing like "She-yibaneh beis hamikdash [Hebrew: May the Holy Temple be rebuilt]," which is a very popular thing that's been sung to death by everybody -- you know, the melody (singing) "She-yibaneh beis hamikdosh bi-m'heirah v'yameinu,/v'sein chelkeinu b'sorah-secha./She-yibaneh beis 11:00hamikdosh, she-yibaneh beis hamikdosh bi-m'heirah [Hebrew: May the Holy Temple be rebuilt speedily in our days,/and grant our portion in Your Torah./May the Holy Temple be rebuilt, may the Holy Temple be rebuilt speedily]" -- then you have the ad lib -- (sings) "Yihi rotzon milfonekho [Ashkenazi Hebrew: May it be Your will]." So, I could take the same -- (singing) "Yihi rotzon milfonekho, yihi rotzon milfonekho, yihi rotzon, yihi" -- and I would add things and I'd go to -- if he went up to a C, I went up to a D. It didn't matter, you know? I just played around. I just played around. And as long as you come home, bring the people back, and sing "She-yibaneh beis hamikdash," and come back to the melody, you know, you're gonna have everybody happy. So, I would embellish stuff -- 12:00sometimes because I didn't know it exactly how he did it, and sometimes because I felt like doing it, and even later on when I knew how he did it. And I would do the same thing with Moishe Oysher's songs -- not only with him.

HN:Like, what Moishe Oysher?

BM:Like, "Amar, amar [Thus spoke, thus spoke]."

HN:Okay.

BM:(singing) "Amar, amar, amar, Rabi Elozor, amar Rabi Hanino, shenamar b'chol bonayikh l'mudey hashem, v'rav shalom bonayikh, al tikrey bonayikh [Hebrew: Rabbi Eleazar quoted Rabbi Hanina, 'When all of your children will be taught about the Lord, great will be the peace of your children. Read not, 'your children']" -- and he just goes on and on.

HN:Yes. Yes.

BM:And I split it up. I go, (singing) "Amar, amar, amar, Rabi Elozor, amar Rabi Hanino, shenamar b'chol bonayikh l'mudey hashem, v'rav shalom, v'rav shalom, v'rav shalom, shalom bonayikh -- amar, amar, amar, Rabi Elozor." And I used it 13:00as a refrain. Then, I'd go on: "Al tikrey bonayikh, o-lo boynayikh [Hebrew: Read not, 'Your children,' but 'Your builders']." And I'd play around with it, you know.

HN:Wow.

BM:That's what I do.

HN:I mean, that --

BM:And I do it automatically. I don't plan these things. And I don't think about it.

HN:Did you have any background? Was there any time when you discussed it or studied it or --

BM:No.

HN:There's none of that?

BM:No. This is me.

HN:Yes. Yes. And khazones [Jewish liturgical music] --

BM:I mean, I studied. I studied --

HN:Yeah. If you could talk about that, I mean --

BM:I studied with Taube. The truth is --

HN:What did you need to work on?

BM:Nothing.

HN:(laughs)

BM:I mean, the thing is -- not that I didn't have to work on anything. I still consider myself a student today. And I pick up bits and pieces from everybody.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Coming to conventions and meeting this one and meeting that one and hearing this one and hearing that one and being friendly with Ganchoff, being friendly with David Koussevitzky, and being friendly with everyone -- with Oscar Julius and -- I was friendly with all these people.

HN:Wow.

BM:And I'd pick up little things from everybody. All the old-time cantors were my friends. Sholom Katz, Vigoda. I knew all these old people, you know? This is something that -- take, for instance, Helfgot. Helfgot's a great khazn. But you know, I'm a khazn longer than he is old.

HN:(laughs) He's only forty-one.

BM:I was a khazn before he was born. He's forty-one. This is gonna be my forty-seventh year in the pulpit. So, I'm a khazn -- besides the years that I sang before that, but officially, having pulpits, this is my forty-seventh year.

HN:At Beth El?

BM:I'm starting my thirty-second at Beth El.

HN:Thirty-second at Beth El. Wow.

BM:So, I have a little baggage, you know, that I'm carrying along. (laughs) It's all up here. But this is what it is. Cantorial music is baggage that you have. You have all these little roads up in your head that moves -- and things that you use during the davening. And it's something you can't plan in advance. So, while you're at it, it's a matter of feeling, a matter of mood, a matter of the congregation, a matter of situations -- you know, something happened today, something happy happened, something bad happened, and all this is reflected in the davening. All of this is reflected in your mood and in the mood of the people of the day. And you work accordingly. This is -- this is what I do.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Not out of -- I wouldn't say -- not out of something that I planned, but this is what happened. This is the result of my being -- of all these years that I've been doing this, the result is that I do things at -- I roll with the punches. I do it as it comes.

HN:Can you talk a little bit about the Yiddish music that you know? Because you -- it's another thing that you do --

BM:All the Yiddish music I know, I know from WEVD, from the radio. I'm not kidding. I used to be glued to that box. At home, we had -- the radio was on top of the refrigerator, and I'd stay glued to that refrigerator. And that's how I picked everything up. They have a lot of Jewish music. You ever hear the name Herschel Fox?

HN:Sure.

BM:You know Herschel?

HN:Herschel --

BM:Herschel was a very --

HN:-- and Judy, yeah.

BM:Yeah, a very dear friend of mine. And he's a Yiddish performer. You know, Herschel walks around the street and sings. He's always singing. And every song he starts, I continue. He says, "What is thi-- where do you know all these songs from?" I say, "Where do I know 'em from? I know 'em from (laughs) -- from the radio." That's where I know them from. I don't necessarily sing them in performances, because certain things I stay away from --

HN:The content is --

BM:Yeah, the contents. So, I could -- you couldn't get me to sing "A yidishe mame [A Jewish mother]" for many years.

HN:Oh?

BM:I would never sing "Mamele [Mommy]," "A yidishe mame." I wouldn't sing anything that had to do with women or "Reyzele" or "Vos makhst epes, moyshele [What are you doing, little Moyshe]?" -- you know, all these things. I don't know. I never felt comfortable singing these things because of who I am.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Today, there's a change. The younger guys that are coming around, they can be 18:00dressed even more Hasidic than I am and they're not ashamed to sing anything. Anything that (laughs) -- that they want. Their repertoire means nothing.

HN:Yeah.

BM:I look at it -- I mean, not to knock anybody, but I look at it as a lack of -- a lack of knowledge and a lack of understanding what they're doing. I don't think that every repertoire is fitting for every person. If you could sing it, that doesn't mean that you have to. I mean, if you take an operatic aria -- now, I don't speak Italian and I don't understand what they're singing, but I imagine 19:00that some of the lyrics in some of the arias -- "La donna è mobile" and stuff like that -- you know, is not fitting for a Hasidic person (laughs) to sing, sometimes. Would he know what he's saying? So, the lack of knowledge -- although he has the wherewithal to do it -- you still have to refrain yourself and know who you are and what you represent. And know what type of repertoire to choose for yourself to sing. Because I can sing it doesn't mean that I have to. I mean, would you agree with that?

HN:Sure. I mean, of course. You want to --

BM:You know, you have to know --

HN:Who you are.

BM:-- who am I?

HN:Who you are.

BM:Who am I? What do I represent?

HN:What's your music? Yes.

BM:How do people perceive me? How do they look at me? What do they think I am? And not to be loose with things, you know, that -- in Yiddish, they say, "S'past 20:00nisht" --- "It's not fitting." So, you've got to choose your repertoire smartly. And so, as a cantor, I think cantors should sing cantorial music. They can't go wrong with that. (laughs) Hasidic music, some Israeli melodies, some Israeli tunes, some Israeli songs -- not all of them. You know, if you're gonna sing (sings) "Shoshana, Shoshan Shoshana" -- and I understand -- I don't know the lyrics exactly; I never picked them up -- but I understand they're not the nicest lyrics. And many other songs like that.

HN:Sure. What about Yiddish folk songs? Is that something that you --

BM:Yeah, I sing Yiddish folk songs.

HN:So, what -- which kinds do you sing? Or what do you -- how do you pick a --

BM:There are classic folk songs, like "Zamd un shtern [Sand and stars]," by Frug 21:00-- Bernstein -- (pronounces with a different accent) Bernstein. All these Singer songs -- Avrom Singer, that composed a lot of the Yiddish folk songs that go with khazones, like "Dos yidishe lid [The Jewish song]" by Secunda, "Shoyfer shel moshiekh [Hebrew: The messiah's shofar]" by Goldfadn -- what do you call it -- "Habeit mishamayim [Look upon us from heaven]" by [Gorczynski?]. There are a lot of Yiddish songs that I sing, something with a message, something that has a little -- a little something to it. But just the guy who wrote the song about "Reyzele" -- you know, that the guy whistles to her and the mame [mother] says there, "Tell him not to whistle, it's not nice." I don't --

HN:Well, he's -- he's pretending he's religious. This is --

BM:Yeah.

HN:(laughs)

BM:Yeah.

HN:So (laughs) --

BM:Yeah, okay. Listen, I know all the songs. I can sing it to myself. But I would not sing 'em in public.

HN:Yeah. Right. You probably grew up hearing Rexite all the time --

BM:Sure.

HN:-- on WEVD.

BM:I knew Seymour.

HN:Yeah.

BM:I knew Seymour, I knew Miriam Kressyn, I knew --

HN:That's an interesting example.

BM:I knew them all.

HN:I mean, his father -- his father was --

BM:I knew Pesach Burstein --

HN:-- also a khazn.

BM:I know -- Mike is a good friend of mine. I knew Lillian Lux and I knew Ben Bonus. I knew them all. I was buddy with them. So? So, I'm their buddy. What does that mean? That doesn't mean that I have to follow in their footsteps. I'm me; they're they. It doesn't matter. You have to stick to your guns, you have to stick to what you were brought up, you have to stick to what you are -- and what you want to be, and what people want you to be. You can't just be loose and try everything. You don't have to.

HN:Do you compose your own music? Is there something --

BM:I wouldn't call it compose. I sit -- like, I improvise. I compose songs all day. I walk around making melodies all day. But I don't take 'em seriously, and 23:00I just discard them. But I have little ditties that I've put to -- you know, that I use in shul, little melodies that I put together that the choir sings, you know?

HN:Example? Any examples that you would share?

BM:We do birkat hachodesh [the blessing of the new moon] every month, you know, and I wrote this little -- a thing for Yehi rotzon [May it be Your will]. And it's based on the beginning is actually "Sheyibone beys hamikdas [Hebrew: May the Temple be rebuilt]" so, like that, when I make stuff in my head, like, I remember, you know? Because it's like that. (laughs) So, I was driving in a car to Toronto and I had nothing to do on the way and I made up this melody driving up -- to keep me busy. And we sing it every month at shul, you know? And I made another one. They don't want it; they want this one.

HN:How does it go?

BM:It's very simple. (singing) "Shetikhadesh oleynu es hakhoydesh hazeh 24:00l'toyvoh, l'toyvoh, l'toyvoh ulivrocho [Ashkenazi Hebrew: To renew unto us this coming month for our good and for blessing]" -- the choir repeats, (same as before]" -- I say (singing) "V'siten lonu khayim, khayim arukhim [Ashkenazi Hebrew: And you shall give us long life]" -- choir, (singing) "V'siten lonu khayim [Ashkenazi Hebrew: And you shall give us a life]" -- khazn, (sings) "Khayim shel shalom [Ashkenazi Hebrew: A life of peace]" -- the choir sings -- because I don't want to say "V'siten lonu [Ashkenazi Hebrew: And you shall give us" -- because I don't want to break up the phrasing and the words, because it says, "V'siten lonu khayim arukhim, khayim shel sholom, khayim shel toyvoh, khayim shel brochoh, khayim shel parnosoh [Ashkenazi Hebrew: And you shall give us long life, a life of peace, a life of goodness, a life of blessing, a life of sustenance]." So, I have the choir putting in the "V'siten lonus" in the begin-- in the middle. "V'siten lonu" -- meaning, "and you shall give us." And you shall give us a life of -- a long life -- you give us a life of peace, a life of 25:00blessing and a life of good and a life of parnose -- prosperity -- and this and that. So, I have the "V'siten lanu" -- they keep on inserting the "V'siten lanus" in between.

HN:That's nice. You know, it's like putting a folk song -- it's like Rosenblatt did that.

BM:Yeah, exactly.

HN:You know, that style. It's really that --

BM:Well, Rosenblatt -- the great thing of Rosenblatt was that every piece -- practically every piece that he composed has a little melody in it.

HN:Yeah. It's even funny -- I mean, he started blessing the new month, (singing) "Y'hi rotzon [Hebrew: May it be Your will]" --

BM:(singing) "Y'hi rotzon" --

HN:-- and then, (singing) "Y'hi rotzon milfonekhoh [Hebrew: May it be Your will]" --

BM:(singing) "Y'hi rotson milfonekhoh" --

HN:-- "Y'hi rozon milfonekhoh" -- he makes a little tune even about --

BM:(singing) "Y'hi rotzon milfonekhoh" --

HN:Yeah.

BM:(singing) "Y'hi rotzon milfonekhoh" --

HN:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BM:(singing) "Y'hi rozon milfonekhoh." There's a melody there, too.

HN:Yeah.

BM:(singing) "She't'khadesh olenu es ha khoydesh hazeh [Hebrew: To renew unto us this coming month]." Well, there were a lot -- a lot of the --- Waldman had a melody --

HN:Yeah.

BM:(singing) "She't'khadesh olenu es ha khoydesh hazeh l'toyvoh u'livrakhoh 26:00[Ashkenazi Hebrew: To renew unto us this coming month for goodness and blessing]."

HN:Yeah, I do a lecture where I do seven cantors blessing the new month, and we talk about the difference between all of them. Yeah, Waldman is one of my favorite ones. Sirota is unbelievable. It goes (laughs) --

BM:Well, Sirota --

HN:-- crazy. (laughs)

BM:-- Sirota had a problem. He had this magnificent voice, but he was not a polished -- he wasn't a polished performer. He had mood swings. I mean, I read this -- there was a khazn Yardeini -- Mordecai Yardeini -- who used to write a column in the "Forverts" -- I'm talking over fifty years ago. And as a kid, I used to read those columns. So, he wrote about Sirota; once he had a column on Sirota. And I'll never forget this. He was talking about his recordings, and when you listen to his recordings, except for two or three pieces that are what 27:00we call normal -- that you can listen to -- all the other stuff is crazy. This is Sirota -- like, he was the king of kings of cantors. It's crazy.

HN:It doesn't work as --

BM:No, no! It's silly. The way he sings, there's like -- like, it's wild. And it was sang very wild. And there's no control. And he wrote it in a nice way. He said, "Ven er hot gezen dos lempl" -- "When he saw the light" -- which I imagine he meant the microphone -- when they put a microphone in front of him, he went nuts. He went nuts. And I heard this from another old cantor that used to frequent our house, my parents' home. And he said that he heard Sirota years back and he had these meshugas and then we used to come to shul -- he used to see the crowd and he didn't like them, so he just started rattling off the 28:00service like he was doing nothing. And people said, What? This is Sirota! (UNCLEAR) and they all had to leave -- they started leaving. They'd go out of the synagogue. The place was empty already. He turned around and he saw the place was empty. And you knew when stuff was coming when he grabbed his collar and he went like this. Okay, now he's gonna do something. So, he (laughs) -- he'd grab his collar and then he'd start pouring out the stuff. And you could hear him for a mile. He had this big heldentenor -- you could hear him for a mile. And the people were, Oh, he's singing! And they started rushing back in. He'd fill the place back up. And he'd play games with the people. He had mood swings.

HN:(whispers) Wow.

BM:And this is what he did. And they'd fill up the shul plus after they heard him. Because, eh -- before he was rattling it off. On the same token, when he saw a microphone, he lost control.

HN:It's like all distorted and everything and --

BM:Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

HN:Yeah.

BM:He was -- you'd take the same pieces that he sings and you -- he was the khazn at Tłomackie shul in Warsaw. After him came Moshe Koussevitzky. Moshe Koussevitzky had this much of a voice compared to Sirota, especially in the younger days when Moshe started in Tłomackie. But what you hear -- when Moshe's singing the same compositions that he sings, the elegance and the beauty, how nice it's -- you know, the presentation. It's not the same piece. It's not the same piece. They sang the same repertoire. They all worked with Leo Low.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Leo Low's compositions. You see what Sirota does with it. He makes a mockery out of it. And Moshe treated it like it was the nicest -- like the best satin in the world, you know? Smooth and nice.

HN:Can you tell us about some of your favorite Hasidic compositions? Or do you 30:00-- do you like Hasidic?

BM:Sure, I love -- I love Hasidic compositions. I love all types of music. I like Greek music, too. So --

HN:Um-hm.

BM:-- doesn't mean anything. I love Greek music. I love Polish music, German music, opera, classical stuff. I like -- yeah, I listen to everything. The only thing I can't listen to is today's -- you know, the rock and this -- this heavy metal and -- especially rap, I can't understand at all. To me, that's sound pollution. It makes no sense to me. And atonal music, I can't stand. (laughs) I'm not -- I'm not that sophisticated. I don't understand it. I had a friend in Montreal who was a pianist and invited me once to one of his recitals of Schoenberg. When you say a test on your nerves --

HN:(laughs)

BM:That was a test of my nerves. You know, I'm sitting there -- you know, Jackie 31:00Mason would say, "Brie, you have to develop a taste." Not everybody (laughs) develops a taste for brie, you know? Maybe I have to develop a taste for this Schoenberg. I couldn't understand it.

HN:I don't think it's going to happen. (laughs)

BM:Well, no -- we -- the thing is, maybe the introduction was wrong.

HN:I think what happens when I -- people talk about this a lot -- you know, that I talk to -- and what I think is I think it's diamet-- it's kind of negating what you love, in a sense. Once you start getting into something that's conceptually away from modality, then why would you like that? Because your whole concept of music is --

BM:That's right.

HN:-- around modes.

BM:Sequences and modes. Modes and sequences. And I wasn't introduced to this, and I never heard it before. So, when he said, "Come, I'm doing a recital," I 32:00said, "All right." I went to the recital and I'm sitting there. So, first he played Beethoven, which, okay. But then, he went into this stuff. And I'm sitting there saying to myself, What the heck is he doing? This is supposed to be music? To me, it sounded like he's just randomly going up and down the piano and banging keys on the piano at random. It made -- had no -- made no sense. Until later, somebody explained to me that the atonal music, you gotta use all the -- the tones and different -- that it's just -- I said, Okay, you have to utilize all the tones? That's fine. But I couldn't sit through another session of that.

HN:Mm. Can you talk about some of the kind of musical characters you grew up hearing? I just wonder, in this area, there were such -- like, you know, int-- I think of people like Yom-Tov Ehrlich or --

BM:Oh, I knew him very well. As a matter of fact, Yom-Tov Ehrlich used to play for me. He was a great accordion player. And he played with the Stoliner band -- with the Klipniks-- and Yom-Tov Ehrlich. And he was a great musician. He played for me. Bob Reisenmann played for me. I sang with Abe Ellstein.

HN:Really?

BM:Yeah. Abe Ellstein had a program on the radio on WEVD every morning. I woke up to this. He said, (singing) "A git morgn, a git yor. Ikh bagris aykh vider, mayne libe fraynt. Tsu nay yedn bazinder, tate-mame in di kinder, a git morgn, a git morgn, a git yor. [Good morning, good year. I greet you again, my dear friends. Once again to each of you, each parent and child, a good morning, a good morning, a good year.]" That was his jingle. That was his opening for the program. "Un dos redt zikh eyb elstin mit an erev-shabesdike piano [Here speaks Abe Ellstein accompanied by a Friday night piano]" -- it was Friday, so it was a erev-shebesdike [Friday night] piano. He had a blue piano on WEVD. It was painted blue. I was twelve years old, and a friend of mine said to me, "You 34:00know, I gotta bring you up to Abe Ellstein. He should hear you." I said, "Okay." So, he took me up one day. We went up to WEVD. I met Abe Ellstein. He says, "What are you gonna sing?" So, okay, I sang a piece of cantorial music -- you know, "Eylu devorim [Hebrew: These things]" by Rappaport. And he played for me. And he gave me a couple of suggestions. And he said, "Well, you're twelve years old. You gotta stop singing now. You gotta rest your voice." And this and that. I said, "Okay." Never did. (laughs) Maybe if I would have, I wouldn't have had a voice today. You never know. Everybody develops in a different way. I know people who had magnificent voices as children, that had nicer voices than me, 35:00and now they have nothing. And I just sang throughout, never had a break. It just developed by itself into -- into a tenor. So, you never know.

HN:Did you read music all along also? Is that --

BM:No.

HN:So, when did -- how did -- could you tell us about when you started to read?

BM:I started studying music in Montreal with cantor Taube, who taught me music. I'm not the greatest reader. But I read enough. I couldn't read a -- an intricate score or anything, you know? But basic stuff, I can read. And I find my way through the music. And then, there's my good old piano over here. If I have a problem, I sit down and work it out, and that's it. That's how I learn my stuff.

HN:And your kids -- can you talk about them with music? Are they --

BM:My kids --

HN:-- carrying this on?

BM:My kids are the same -- same like me. I guess it comes from laziness. I guess because -- you know, I used to go for my lessons. And he'd sing the lesson to me --

HN:With Taube?

BM:With Taube. He'd sing the lesson to me. This was, like, Monday; I had to come back Thursday and repeat it. So, I took the book, I took it home, I put it away. And then, in the car on the way to him on Thursday I looked at it -- at the stoplight. And I'd sing it. And he'd say, "You know, the other guy that comes to me, he's not serious." I don't want to mention any names, but he said, "The other cantor that comes to -- and study with me, he's not serious. He never knows his lesson when he comes back on the next day." He said, "He doesn't practice like you. You practice." So I was thinking -- I didn't say anything, but I said to myself, Okay, I practice. I never even looked at the book. And I 37:00still remember the lessons by heart today. (sings in solfeggio). I'd remember them. He'd sing it to me; I'd remember it. I didn't know how to read it.

HN:I see, so it was solfeggio lessons.

BM:Yeah.

HN:Which is interesting, because in khazones, there's so many things that don't fit into solfeggio. I mean --

BM:They do.

HN:Well, the krekhts [groans] and the --

BM:Krekhts, those are accidentals. The krekhts is a feeling. You could write a krekhts. Somebody who knows how to notate cantorial music properly like Noah Schall --

HN:Noah Schall -- yeah, I was going to say --

BM:-- puts in every krekhts. Danny Gildar will write in every krekhts. Danny Gildar not only writes in the krekhts, but Danny Gildar would write in -- like, 38:00Israel Schorr -- there was a khazn Schorr --

HN:Wrote "She-yiboneh."

BM:"She-yiboneh." Right. (singing) "[Hebrew - 00:38:07 - 00:38:10]." And he sings. And when he does his khazones part, he sometimes -- you're not sure -- is he a half up or is he a half down? He'd put both in, Danny. Just to be sure, he said, "This and parentheses that." (laughs) So, (laughs) -- so we've got guys in this field who, when they notate -- take Eli Jaffe, for instance. When he notates, I can't read his music. I told him a million times. He just writes "more or less." He said, "What do you think, I'm gonna write out every dreydl [twist] and everything, I'm gonna write everything?" I said, "Yes!"

HN:If you're gonna write it out --

BM:You've gotta write it out!

HN:It's your job.

BM:He doesn't! And he gives -- his compositions! I recorded his compositions and he gives me this sheet of music and I'm looking at it and I said, "Eli, I can't 39:00make heads or tails out of this thing. I don't know what it is!" "What are you talkin' about? Yeah, it's all in there!" I said, "No, it's not! It's not in there!" Until this day, I have this problem with him, and he refuses to write in all the dreydl and all the things, you know. So, on the other hand, all the others -- Shmuel Taube used to write in every little note: every little accidental, every little touch, you know? Everything was there. That's how you're supposed to write it. Now -- so me, being that I picked up things like that, I was lazy. Because I relied on my ear and my mind and my memory. And my daughter had the same problem when she studied piano. The teacher would come, give her the lesson, work with her on the lesson. She wouldn't touch the piano 40:00the whole week, she'd play the lesson. She played it by ear. And I think people that are blessed or cursed with this ability have problems studying music -- the same as somebody that has perfect pitch has problems singing something in a different key. Can't sing it in a different key. Because it --

CHRISTA WHITNEY:Can you just move the mic down a tiny bit?

HN:Oh, move the mic? Oh --

BM:Oh, am I hitting it?

HN:The beard is getting the mic. Okay, yeah. Let me just --

BM:It's always the beard.

HN:-- I'll just move it toward the button. That's okay.

BM:Always the beard.

HN:It's very easy.

BM:You know these Jews with the beards --

HN:Exactly.

BM:-- they always get the beard in the way.

HN:A yid mit a bord [A Jew with a beard].

BM:That's it --

HN:(laughs)

BM:-- a yid mit a bord vi a bord on a yid [a Jew with a beard than a beard without a Jew].

HN:Exactly. (laughs)

BM:(laughs) You speak Yiddish?

HN:Yo, avade [Yes, of course].

BM:Yo, d'redst yidish [Yeah, you speak Yiddish]?

HN:Yo, beyde [Yes, both of us]. (laughs)

BM:(pointing off camera, to Christa) Zi redt oykh yidish [She speaks Yiddish too]?

HN:Yeah, yo, yo, zi oykh redt, yo [yeah, yeah, she speaks too, yeah].

BM:Ken men dokh redn yidish! 'Vos darf men brekhn 'em kop? [We can speak Yiddish then! Why should we give ourselves a headache?] (laughter)

HN:Yeah, okay. Okay, nokh a mol af yidish [say it again in Yiddish]. (laughs)

BM:S'iz a sakh zaftiker in yidish [It's a lot juicier in Yiddish].

CW:Can you ask him the tate-mame [parents] question?

HN:Epes vegn tate-mame [Something about his parents]? Okay. Yeah, you should ask a few questions. Yeah.

CW:(laughs)

HN:(laughs) Zi vilt hern a bisl mer vegn di tate-mame?

BM:Mayn tate-mame [My parents]? All right. Mayn tate-mame zenen gekumen fun yurop. Mayn tate hot farloyrn a vayb mit kinder in di milkhome. Un hot ongefangen fun dos nay, getrufn mayn muter un [My parents came from Europe. My father lost a wife and children in the war. And he started over, met my mother and] -- in the DP camp in Fernwald, in daytshland [Germany]. Zey hobn khasene gehat un gehat zibn kinder. Zey zaynen gekumen kayn amerike in nayn-un-fertsikstn yor -- un mir hobn gevoynt Brownsville, koydem, in bronsvil. 42:00Mayn tate mit a bruder zaynem hobn gehat a fleysh-gesheft, [They got married and had seven children. They came to America in '49 -- and we lived in Brownsville, actually, in "Bronsvil." My father and his brother had a meat shop], a butcher shop. Ober mayn tate iz oykh geven a moyl [But my father was also a mohel]. Un tsvishn [So between] the butcher store and the brisn [circumcisions] and the khazones, hot men gemakht a lebn [Jewish liturgical music, he made a living].

HN:(laughs)

BM:Indzer hoyz demolt iz geveyn a freylekher hoyz. Khotsh zay hobn mitgemakht in di krig, di tsures vos zay hobn mitgemakht vos hobn ibergelebt d'krig, hobn zey es keyn mol gevizn tsi indz. Mir hobn gelebt a lebn azoy vi normale kinder. Mayn tate hot keyn mol nisht geredt fun vos iz geven. Mayn mame in shpeterdike yorn hot ongefangen a bisl dertsayln -- a dos -- ober zay -- vi m'zogt, zey hobn indz 43:00keyn mol nisht geshtelt far a gelegnheyt, vi m'zol hobn epes -- yeah, eyn zakh! Az m'hot nisht gevolt esn, vi kinder viln nisht esn, flegn zey zogn, Oy, vi mir hobn dos gehat in lager. In geto, ven mir voltn gehat tsu esn dos, m'hot geharget derfar! In yetst vilst nisht esn. Gib a kik fun alem gutn un m'vil nisht esn. [Our house back then was a happy house. Even though they had gone through the war, the suffering they went through in surviving the war, they never showed us. We lived just like normal kids. My father never spoke about what had been. My mother, in later years, did start to tell a little -- a something -- but they -- as we say, they didn't take the opportunity to impose, if there was something -- yeah, one thing! If we didn't want to eat, like kids don't eat, they would say, Oh, if we had had that in the camps. In the ghetto, if we had food like that, we would have killed for it! And now you don't want to eat. Look at all the good things you have and you don't want to eat.] That was the only thing. Other than that, never any -- she never made us feel like -- you know, we owe them something special because they went through so much and they suffered. Never.

HN:Just never leave any food over. (laughs)

BM:No, the food -- this food was one thing that bothered my mother.

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:My father never -- it never bothered him.

HN:Yeah.

BM:But my mother -- as a matter of fact, whatever we left over, she'd eat. She'd never throw out food. Never throw out food.

HN:Yeah.

CW:Vi iz geven bronsvil [What was Brownsville like]?

BM:Bronsvil?

CW:Bronsvil.

BM:Bronsvil iz geven a yidisher gegnt [Brownsville was a Jewish neighborhood].

HN:Yo [Yes], Pitkin Avenue.

BM:Pitkin Avenue. I lived on --

HN:Dave's Inn.

BM:-- Chester and Livonia. (laughs)

HN:Hoffman's Cafeteria. Ir vilt redn vegn bronsvil [Do you want to talk about Brownsville]?

BM:Redn af yidish [Speak in Yiddish]? Oh, Bronsvil! Bronsvil iz geven zeyer a shpetsyeler gegnt. Keydem hobn geveynt in tshester in livonye, dos iz shoyn vayt [Brownsville was a special neighborhood. First of all we lived on Chester and Livonia. This was far out] -- towards East New York. Dernokh hobn mir gevoynt af [then we lived on] Saratoga Avenue and Eastern Parkway. Dos iz shoyn gegangen in a besere gegnt. Interesante iz az a vu mir hobn gedavnt, iz geven kleyne botim-midroshimlekh. [This was a better area. Interesting is that where we prayed, there were little prayer houses.]. Af di [on the] square block, vi mir hobn gedavnt af [where we prayed on] Prospect Place --- so you had Prospect, Saratoga, St. Marks, Hopkinson. Iz geveyn finef shuln mit a mikve. Finef shuln 45:00mit a mikve. [There were five synagogues and a mikveh. Five synagogues and a mikveh]. Under one square block.

HN:Wow.

BM:Dos hot men nisht gezen in yurop [You didn't even see this in Europe]. I mean, vi groys iz geven der gegnt? In ale hobn gehat minyonim, ale hobn gedavnt. S'iz geven der dezher rebe, deraym mir hobn d'poylisher shtibl, di kloz, di shtrizhever, di makever, in di mikve. [how big is was the neighborhood? And they all had minyans, they all prayed. There was the Dezher rebbe, then we had the Polish prayer house, the Kloz, the Shtrizhever, the Makever, and the mikveh]. Unbelievable. Alts kinder zenen mir arimgelofn fun eyn shul tsu dem andern -- du hot men a kidish, du [As kids we ran around from one shul to another -- here was a kiddush, here] -- we had a good time. We had a very good time in the younger years -- mit di khaveyrim fin yeshive [with my friends from yeshiva], from school. And s'gevezn a [there was], a marketplace off Prospect Place -- di 46:00tsveyte gas iz geven a [on the next street there was a] marketplace mit [with] pushcarts. Ale yidishe gesheftn, ale yidishe balebatim -- eyner hot gehat frukht, er hot geshlugn mit eym, er hot shenere epl, er hot andere epl [They were all Jewish businesses, all Jewish-owned -- some had fruits, he fought with him, he had better apples, he had different apples]. S'geven [There were] butcher shops and bakeries and -- alts i' geven, alts i' geven [there was everything, there was everything]. Un nokhdem der gegnt hot zikh ongehoybn tsu toyshn -- arayngekimen andere elementn. M'hot shoyn nisht gekent voynen mer dortn. M'vet derharget in di gasn. So men iz ufgehoybn keyn boro park [And then the neighborhood started to change -- other elements came in. You couldn't live there anymore. You could be killed in the streets. So we moved to Borough Park] -- oh, Crown Heights -- koydem kayn [first to] Crown Heights. Park and Kingston. Nu, Crown Heights -- darf'kh aykh nisht zogn, iz gevezn zeyer a frume gegnt, geveynt a sakh yidn. Oykh di zelbe zakh, hot zikh gekimen andere elementn. [Well, Crown Heights -- I don't have to tell you, it was a very religious neighborhood, a lot of Jews lived there. Also the same thing, other elements came in.] Biz [Until] Lubavitch took a stand. Zey zenen rusn, zey geyen nisht [They are Russians, they're not leaving]. We all left. Indz h'men ale antlofn. 47:00Zay zenen geblibn. In haynt vert es tsurik. Crown Heights iz tsurik, file mit yidn, in gegnt zey pushn aroys di goyim, zey koyfn di hayzer in zey filn es op mit yidn. [We all ran away. They stayed. And now it's back. Crown Heights is back, filled with Jews, and now they push out the non-Jews, they buy up the houses and they fill them up with Jews.] Keyneynehore [No evil eye], you know, beautiful. Nokher zenen mir gekumen kayn boro park. Nu, boro park, du hobn di yidn invested tsufil gelt, ober zey veln es nisht iberlozn. M'geyt nisht avek fin du. [After that we came to Borough Park. So, the Jews have invested too much money in Borough Park, so they can't leave. We're not leaving this place.] (laughing) Dos iz der emes, dos iz der emes. S'iz andersh ven men koyft a hayzl far hundert toyznt dolars vi ven men koyft far fir hindert toyznt dolars oder far akht hundert toyzn dolar oder far a milyon mit a halb. Doz m'lozt men nisht iber ven m'loyft avek. So, iz boro park halt zikh, boro park iz -- m'ken es rufn di yerushelayim fin amerike. [That's the truth, that's the truth. It's different when you buy a house for a hundred thousand dollars than when you buy one for four hundred thousand dollars or for eight hundred thousand dollars or for a million and a half. You don't leave that behind. So, Borough Park remains, Borough Park is -- you can call it the Jerusalem of America.]

HN:Yeah. Borough Park does have that reputation.

BM:Yeah, it's --

HN:But the --

BM:-- listen, Borough Park is a -- when I lived in Toronto -- I lived in Toronto eight years. And I was offered the position here in Borough Park, my wife said, "No, no, no, no, no. We're not moving to Borough Park.""Not moving -- I'm not leaving Toronto. Toronto is a gorgeous city."

HN:Yeah.

BM:"Nice, clean, quiet. Everybody lives together, friendly and this and that," you know?

HN:Yes.

BM:"Why am I going to -- to Borough Park, to a jungle, nobody knows me, I know nobody, this and that." Try to get my wife out of Borough Park today.

HN:(laughs)

BM:You can't get her out.

HN:Yeah. In Toront-- did you -- I wonder if -- did you work with Srul Glick?

BM:Srul Glick? Sure.

HN:Did he write for you?

BM:I loved his music.

HN:I think he's amazing. I think he was --

BM:I love --

HN:-- amazing. He was a very close friend of mine.

BM:You know, it's interesting, I love Srul Glick's music, I love Sholom Kalib's music -- you know Sholom Kalib?

HN:Yeah, of course. Yes. And he wrote that nice book about khazones, too.

BM:Besides the book that he wrote --

HN:But he wrote music, yes --

BM:-- about khazones --

HN:No, he writes music.

BM:-- but his compositions.

HN:Yes.

BM:He wrote 'em for the Conservative movement, but there's so much Yiddishkayt in his music. You feel --

HN:This is --

BM:-- Yiddishkayt in it.

HN:I'm so glad you said that. I'm always -- you know, people are always saying, Oh, do you know this Jewish piece and -- I'm like, you know, "Do you know Srul Glick? Do you know Sholom?" You know, these -- because these guys actually write from their hearts. You know, they actually wrote from --

BM:Srul --

HN:-- something that was basic --

BM:Srul Glick wrote --

HN:-- to who they were, you know?

BM:-- beautiful music. His harmonies and his beau--

HN:Incredible.

BM:Beautiful, incredible music. Yeah. I don't know what he was influenced by.

HN:Well, Bloch and Bernstein, actually, but --

BM:It wasn't run-of-the-mill, you know, regular Jewish -- choral settings and stuff like that. It was different. But it had the warmth.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Has the warmth. I loved it.

HN:He was Carlebach's brother-in-law, so --

BM:Yeah.

HN:-- that was part of it. But I mean, it was also -- his father was a cantor and --

BM:Sure. I knew his father.

HN:-- you know. Yeah.

BM:I met his father. And Carlebach used to come to my house. My first official position was in Hillside, New Jersey and the rabbi was Eli Chaim Carlebach, Shlomo's twin brother. Yeah. My first concert that I did -- I mean, official concert -- was with Shlomo -- that his brother pulled off in Hillside, in New Jersey, in Newark. And Shlomo was my teacher in first grade for three days. (laughs)

HN:(laughs) My God!

BM:Yeah. And I just came across something very pretty this morning -- somebody sent it to me -- they sent me something about the Lubavitcher rebbe. That was in -- Facebook? Was it in Facebook? I think it was in -- in Facebook. And who was sitting next to the Lubavitcher rebbe? Shlomo. And I remember when he looked 51:00like that.

HN:Well, there was a time when he was an emissary -- he and Zalman Schachter were both emissaries for the --

BM:I remember Zalman Schachter. And I remember when -- that we were told we can't talk to him.

HN:What -- really? How did that --

BM:Oh, we were told we can't -- we were told not to talk with him because he's kind of a --

HN:Renegade?

BM:-- athei-- a heretic or something. Yeah.

HN:Yeah. He started his own movement.

BM:So, I remember him. He davened by the Bobover rebbe in Crown Heights. And he had this colorful tallis -- the first time I saw a tallis with colors -- (UNCLEAR) all of them, they were black and white. (Netsky laughs) And I saw this with the colors; it looked good. And everybody was, you know, Who's this guy? Red nisht mit im [Don't talk to him].

HN:(laughs)

BM:M'shud nisht redn mit im [You shouldn't talk to him]. All right. Well, they didn't tell us why. But, you know, m'hot geshushket in shul [people whispered at shul], you know? M'tor nisht redn mit im [You shouldn't talk to him]. I gotta 52:00show this to you.

HN:Yeah?

BM:The Lubavitcher rebbe is speaking, and Shlomo is sitting next to him. That was in the early years -- early years of the Lubavitcher rebbe. Those Lubavitchers puts out stuff on Facebook (UNCLEAR).

HN:Yeah, I know. I've seen, I've seen.

BM:But anyway.

HN:That's a beautiful quote, huh?

BM:M'ken dervayl redn [We can talk in the meantime].

HN:Oh --

BM:M'ken redn un ikh ken zikhn [We can talk and I'll look for it].

CW:(laughs)

HN:Af yidish, oder [In Yiddish, or] --

BM:Vi azoy ir vilt [However you want]. You want to speak ivrit [Hebrew: Hebrew]? Ani medaber gam ivrit [Hebrew: I also speak Hebrew].

HN:Yeah.

BM:You want to speak Polish?

HN:Aber di rebe hot ale mol geredt yidish in di droshe [But the rebbe always spoke Yiddish in his sermons] --

BM:Ober bay ondz hot men geredt yidish [But we spoke Yiddish] -- listen, ikh ken redn vi azoy m'hot geredt b'indz in galitsye okhet. Bay indz hot men geredt galitsyanish. Mayne eltern zenen fin galitsye. Mayn tate kimt fin oshpitsin, vos heyst af poylish oshvenshim [I can also speak the way we spoke in Galicia. We spoke with a Galician accent. My parents are from Galicia. My father comes from Oshpitsin, called Oświęcim in Polish] --

HN:(laughs)

BM:-- better known as Auschwitz.

HN:Yo [Yeah].

BM:Mayn tate iz dort geboyrn un ofgetsoygn. Mayn mame kimt fin a shtetl 53:00limenova, liminev. Dos iz leybn sans -- alts iz arim kroke, yene gegnt. [My father was born and raised there. My mother comes from a shtetl Limanowa, Limonov. That's near Sanz -- it's all near Kraków, that area.]

HN:Di gantse [the whole] Pale. (laughs)

BM:Un so -- mir zenen ofgetsoygn gevorn redndik vi galitsyaner, ober ikh ken redn vi a hingerisher, ikh kon reydn vi a Litvak. [And so -- we were raised speaking like Galicians, but I can also speak with a Hungarian accent, I can also speak like a Litvak.] (Netsky laughs) Vos ir vilt nor [Whatever you want]. (Netsky laughs) Vi a risisher aykhet, f'rislond [Or with a Russian accent, from Russia]. (pause) All right?

HN:Hot ir gefinen [Did you find it]?

BM:Nokh nisht [Not yet] -- I'm scrolling down -- kh'hob es gezen haynt in der fri [I saw it this morning]. Arye Mark or was it Arye Mark? Arye Mark? (pause) (sings wordlessly) Nu, vegn vos vilt ir reydn [So, what do you want to talk about]?

HN:Ah! Okay. Can we still ask you things while you're looking? I --

BM:Sure.

HN:I just wondered about this, you know, kind of -- do you feel like the legacy of khazones -- you know, how do you feel about the current attitude toward your legacy of --

BM:(sighs)

HN:-- khazones and how it's being appreciated? Is it still in this community appreciated or --

BM:In this community, it's very appreciated -- as long as you give it to them for free.

HN:(laughs)

BM:I mean, without kidding -- no kidding. As long as it's free, you're gonna fill the place. No problem. Azoy vi es kost a por sent, shoyn andere mayse [When it costs something, it's another story].

HN:Yeah, but your position is, I assume --

BM:Let's put it this way --

HN:-- secure --

BM:No, the whole shul isn't secure these days. Because you have to understand, logistics. Borough Park is a Hasidish town. Take a -- did you --

HN:Right. And Beth El and Temple Emanu-El are --

BM:-- did you take a -- Temple Emanu-El doesn't exist anymore.

HN:Oh, really?

BM:No.

HN:I haven't been here for a while.

BM:Oh, so I was gonna suggest to you to take a little walk around --

HN:I'll take a walk, yes.

BM:Khapn a shpatsir [Take a walk]. And you're going to see that -- it ain't what it was.

HN:I'm assuming that Bobover shul is still there and Kaminetz Yeshiva and then --

BM:Kaminetz Yeshiva is there, on Fifty-Sixth Street.

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:Yeah, yeah. That's here.

HN:Okay.

BM:The Bobover shul is here. And as a matter of fact, there are two Bobover shuls now, because there was a split in Bobov.

HN:Oh, I remember. Yes. Yes.

BM:All right. And you don't have a block without a shtibl [small Hasidic house of prayer]. Without a little bes-medreshl [a little prayer house].

HN:I see.

BM:Not one block.

HN:So, the actual --

BM:And some of 'em have two and some have three.

HN:So, the synagogues are an endangered species.

BM:They are. Because you don't have this element here anymore. The element of 56:00the shul-gayer iz nishto mer [shul-goer isn't here anymore]. People go to daven, but not in the shul. They go to daven in a bes-medresh, in a shtibl. You're gonna go into -- there's a little bes-medresh called Shomer Shabbos on Fifty-Third -- on Thirteenth and Fifty-Third. It's a minyone factory. It's a minyen factory. From early in the morning -- from the first minute you're allowed to daven until late in the afternoon, you have minyonim going, going, going, going, then there's a minkhe [Jewish afternoon prayer] -- minkhe all the way till the last minyen, minkhe, then the mayrev [Jewish evening prayer]. Till three o'clock in the morning, you have minyonim.

HN:Really?

BM:Yes. Not only that, but they also have -- in the basement, they have a setup with all kinds of food and coffees and cakes and food and sandwiches for people who need -- they haven't got anywhere to eat, they come in and they eat there.

HN:So, even though you're from Hasidic background, that is not your thing, I'm assuming, so much --

BM:Oh, yeah, I'm a Hasidim. I'm a Hasid.

HN:Well, you're a Hasid, but so -- but a Hasid of what -- you know, who would you consider your rebbe then?

BM:I'm a Bobover Hasid.

HN:So, you're a Bobover Hasid?

BM:Yeah.

HN:But you work at Beth El?

BM:It's right across the street from --

HN:I know it is. I mean, it's literally --

BM:So, I --

HN:-- it's very convenient. (laughs)

BM:-- I -- we cross lines.

HN:I see. (laughter) I see.

BM:The tfiles -- the prayers merge and go up together.

HN:Yes, yes. But I --

BM:They'll --

HN:No, I (UNCLEAR) --

BM:They'll kill me if I said that. (laughs)

HN:(laughs) Oh, that's good. (laughs)

BM:It's all right. So, no -- listen. When I took the job, I went to ask the Bobover rebbe first. I didn't do it without asking.

HN:Oh.

BM:What do you think? I did it, you know, on my own two -- no. I went to ask and I got his blessing.

HN:Yeah. So, which current Bobover are you affiliated with then?

BM:Oh, here comes the problem. I'm not affiliated with either.

HN:Ah.

BM:Not because I'm the cantor across the street. You know, I was too strongly involved with the old -- with the father --

HN:He was something else, yeah.

BM:Yeah. And I can't see myself over here. I can't see myself there. That's what it is.

HN:Yeah.

BM:So, therefore I -- I was there this Shabbos. I went in. They had what they call a khumesh sider [Chumash seder]. Do you know what a khumesh sider is?

HN:No, what's that?

BM:That's when little boys start learning khumesh [Five Books of Moses].

HN:Oh, okay.

BM:They make a special get-together and a special party and there's a whole, like -- like, a little play they do with Parshah Vayikra [Leviticus 1 Torah portion]. And then, they sing and --- so, all the children from first grade -- or from the last year -- whatever they call it, kindergarten or whatever -- before they go into first grade, learn this program. And they planned this -- so 59:00they had, like, a few hundred kids. So, one of 'em was my grandson, so I went. So, I go in there whenever I feel -- whenever I have to. I'm a mohel myself, so if I get invited to do a bris there, I go and do a bris. And if I'm invited to do a bris in the other Bobover, I go to the other Bobover to do a bris. I don't care, you know? Some of 'em don't go, you know? He goes there, doesn't go here, doesn't go here, doesn't go there. Well.

HN:Yeah.

BM:It broke up a lot of families.

HN:Mm, when they split up?

BM:Yeah. Excuse me one second. [BREAK IN RECORDING] We were saying?

HN:Anyhow -- you know -- can you talk a little bit about what you -- your impressions of the Kraków Festival?

BM:Oh, the Kraków Festival to me is one of the nicest things I've been part of, for many years. One of the most exciting -- I look forward to this every year, 60:00all year. You know, being that my family comes from that part of the world, I have a special -- feeling for it, you know? You know, coming back to my parents -- "Oh, in der haym, d'haym, der haym, d'haym [Oh, back home, home, the home, home]" -- all they used to talk about is "der heym." I mean, my mother -- when we used to drive out to the mountains, she used to -- "Oh, look at this! Look at the scenery! Look at the flowers!" Look at the this, look at the that! Da-da-da -- farmers with cows, with this and that. And me, as a kid -- you know, we were city kids; we were brought up over here in the city with hard pavements and sidewalks and stuff like that. I used to always look at her like, What is she getting all so uptight about the country and the countryside and the -- looking 61:00at the -- the grass and the -- what excites her so much about this? Until I came to Poland. And when I went to visit her town, driving there and driving further and driving -- seeing the Carpathian Mountains -- you've been there. I don't have to tell you. You've traveled around Poland. It's gorgeous. Some of those places are gorgeous. And my mother grew up with this. And this is the impression it left on her. So, I'd always hear my mother talking about, Oh, the felder [fields] with the this and the fields and -- my father would talk about the porter beer that he used to drink at home. "Nothing compares in America to the zayfishe porter -- Żywiec porter. Nothing." Until I brought him a bottle once. And he said, "Eh, s'i nisht d'zelbe." Not the same. So, it's either his taste 62:00buds changed or they changed -- they changed (laughs) the ingredients. I don't know what it was. But he was so disappointed from that bottle of beer. And these things -- you know, they're in the back of my mind. And every time he used to talk about "back home, back home, back home" -- you know, "my father" and this and that, and "my brothers" and -- and I'd say, You know, one of these days, I would love to see this place. I'd like to see what was back home. Well, okay. So, now I go there every year. And every year I make a stop at my father's house, where he lived. And I go to my great-grandmother's grave. And I go to this one and to that one and where this one lived and where that one lived and then I take a look. Di groyse glikn m'ken meynen [You can think, the great joy], you know? What they had over there. But I have this -- this feeling for that place. Kraków, when we -- you know, when you walk around the Kazimierz and you 63:00see all the homes and you take a look, you say, This house was occupied by Jews and this house was occupied by Jews and this house was occupied by Jews. And when you walk and you see and -- the door posts on the side, you still see the mark of the mezuzah, where the mezuzah was.

HN:Yeah.

BM:And -- you know? It's a special feeling.

HN:Yeah.

BM:And that's what gives me -- that's what gives me all this -- this -- want to go back and get more and more and more. And as a matter of fact, to the point where I got a medal -- a Polish medal -- from the president, from Kaczyński. I can show it to you. It's sitting right over there. And then, I got a medal from the mayor of Kraków for coming and doing these things -- and what we call mending bridges or whatever between the Poles and the Jews. And you know, 64:00everybody talks about anti-Semitism in Poland -- I wouldn't say they love us. I mean, I'm not stupid, and I know that they don't love us. But wherever I go, I don't see any anti-Semitism. Maybe it's because I'm sort of a celebrity. I can hear them shushken [whispering] the Benzion Miller -- I can hear them mentioning my name when I walk by in the street. I don't know how it is when the festival isn't on. I mean, I've been there. It's very dead. Very dead. But even then, I -- I don't see it. And I don't hide my Yiddishkayt. I don't come with a cap and with black sunglasses and people shouldn't recognize me. I walk around like this 65:00in the street. Not with a hat; with my yarmulke -- in the street, and they all know I'm Jewish. I go shopping in the supermarkets and I travel and I -- I don't know. And I feel that Janusz, the organizer of the festival, I think he did a great thing with this. And he built a lot of camaraderie and friendship between the Poles and the Jewish people. But that's my feeling.

HN:Yeah.

BM:That's what I think and that's what I see.

HN:Yeah.

BM:But then again, I wouldn't say every Pole -- you know, when the Pole gets shiker [drunk] and then he throws out a couple of words -- so he does it. I mean, I go with Danny Gildar, and Danny -- Danny's walking in the streets with 66:00me, and -- so Danny says, "A kid spit at me." So? "Er iz antisemit [He's an anti-Semite]!" I said, "Er iz nisht kay antisemit [He's not an anti-Semite]. He doesn't even know that you're a Jew." "He didn't spit on you because you're a Jew. He just spit on you (laughs) because he's a lousy kid." (Netsky laughs) And a kid could spit on you in America, too. So, are you gonna say he's an anti-Semite? No. Because it's Poland, he's an antisemit [anti-Semite]. You can't look at it that way. I don't say people don't make remarks. They make remarks. So what? You have to understand something: they've been fed by the Church. All these years, they've been fed all kinds of hatred and this against the Jew. It all comes down from jealousy. They were jealous of the Jew because the Jew had the shops and the Jews had the knowledge and the Jews were the professors and 67:00the Jews -- they had everything. And the Pole was a -- was -- most of 'em were just peasants. They were plain peasants. And it came out of jealousy. And the Church didn't help this. You know, the Polish -- the Polish goyim are very strong, ardent Catholics, most of them, and they believe everything the priest says. And Pope John Paul II -- he apologized and he -- and he said -- by the way, it came out now that he might have been a Jew.

HN:(gasps)

BM:His grandmother was Jewish.

HN:(whispers) Wow.

BM:His mother's mother was a Jew. We don't know -- I don't know it for sure, but I've heard it several times recently. I know that he liked khazones. He had Koussevitzky records. Yeah.

HN:Wow.

BM:Yeah. He also had a friend -- till the last day -- from Wadowice. My 68:00great-grandfather -- oh, which I forgot to tell you -- was the khazn and the shoykhet [ritual slaughterer] in Wadowice, where the pope came from. And -- he had a friend that was this Jew, a friend until the last day. So, he definitely was not an anti-Semite. And he apologized plenty for the Polish Church and --- eh, all right. This guy Benedict now has a different -- he's --

HN:Hm. (laughs)

BM:-- he's not our best friend.

HN:(laughs)

BM:Okay. But I think he can't turn back what the -- what John Paul already did. So, that's basically it. Let's put it this way: when I walk around Kazimierz, I feel very much at home. I don't know. I have this feeling over there. I don't 69:00feel the same in Warsaw.

HN:Mm. Right. Well, because Warsaw's all gone, so, you know the Jewish --

BM:No, but there's a nice Jewish community today in Warsaw.

HN:There's a Jewish community -- there's a Chabad community, there's Israelis, but I mean, but it's --

BM:Yeah, but -- but still, I don't feel it, you know?

HN:Eh.

BM:But it's not only that --

HN:The neighborhood, you know?

BM:No, no. It's not even that.

HN:No, it's not even that? No?

BM:The galitsyaner [Galician] -- even the goy -- is different than the Polish one from kongres-poyln [Congress Poland] -- from -- Poland. The ones coming from Galicia have a lot more -- even the way they speak, their mannerisms --

HN:Yeah. Kraków is different. You're right.

BM:Kraków -- their mannerisms are different. And I see it the same about the yidn. Jews from Varshe and from Łódź are different -- their mentality is different -- than people from Galicia. Krukeve [Krakow] Jews were finer -- they 70:00were more refined, they were more intelligent. The Warsaw and the Łódź Jews were zhlobes [peasants]. Do you know what a "zhlob" is?

HN:Yo. (laughs)

BM:Yeah.

HN:It's a klezmer-loshn [musician language] word.

BM:It's a klezmer-loshn --

HN:(laughs)

BM:Okay.

HN:Zhlob.

BM:So, they were tougher, harder, much less learned. They weren't as refined. Although in Warsaw, there were many writers, and then the -- this and that, you know. But the average -- the average Polish Jew -- they speak very abrupt. Shlekh'tien? V'zl'tien vos? Dos iz a lodzher. "Vos zol ikh tien?" iz "V'zl'tien? Shlekh'tien vus?" [What should I do? What should I do? That's a person from Łódź. "What should I do?" is "Wh'sh'I do?" "Shud'what?"] And they speak very 71:00-- very -- not fine. A krokever yid, hot geredt andersh [A Jew from Krakow spoke differently]. They spoke with a singsong -- s'i geven andersh [it was different]. And they spoke different in Oshpitsin and different in Ciechanów and different in Kroke -- and different in Sanz. They had different melodies, different ways they speak. Like in Ciechanów, it would -- everything was a question. Host a lefele? Vos darfste, a lefele? [Do you have a spoon? What do you need, a spoon?] Everything was with a question. You know, they singsong their way. And the krukeve -- so the same way, I find that the goyim in Warsaw are different than the goyim in Kraków. But you've probably noticed that, too.

HN:Yeah. No, it's -- I think I do notice that. And Czechosl-- like, Munkács is completely different.

BM:No, di karpatn iz an andere zakh in gantsn [No, the Carpathian region is a totally different thing].

HN:Oh, my God.

BM:These are -- I love talking to them, but they -- they're a totally different 72:00world, you know?

HN:Yeah.

BM:Well, it's the same thing -- like, you can take a German Jew -- the Germans are different, you know? It's a different mentality. It's a different -- different upbringing.

HN:Where'd you say your mother was from, though? She was from --

BM:Limonov.

HN:From Limonov. So, okay, so -- so still -- so Galicia (UNCLEAR) --

BM:Galicia, yeah.

HN:-- in the Carpathian Mountains, but not quite as far as -- not Czechoslovakia.

BM:It's not in the Carpathian Mountains --

HN:Yeah, but it's near.

BM:-- but you can see the Carpathian Mountains from there.

HN:Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

BM:That's on the way to Nowy Sącz. You know the Sanz?

HN:Yes, yes. The Sanzer -- yes. Yes. So, maybe -- I mean, we could finish up -- but we've taken so much of your time. My God, this has been wonderful --

CW:An eytse [piece of advice].

HN:What's --

CW:Ikh vil an eytse [I want a piece of advice].

BM:An eytse. (laughter) Oh!

HN:(laughs) An eytse -- for future generations, what do you want to share? (laughs) An eytse on the level. (laughs)

BM:Okay. Az ikh ken gebn an eytse, vel ikh gebn an eytse [If I can give a piece of advice, I'll give some advice], we'll give 'em an eytse.

HN:Ikh vil epes oykh [I also want to] --

BM:Ikh ken nisht garantien [I can't guarantee]. (laughter)

HN:Er zukht far an eytse fun der lubavetsher rebn [He's looking for a piece of advice from the Lubavitcher rebbe]. (laughs)

BM:I've got to show you this before you leave.

HN:Okay. Efsher epes fun di bobover yerushe. Ikh vil hern, efsher eyn nign fun 73:00di bobover [Maybe something from the Bobover tradition. I want to hear one Bobover melody.]

BM:A nign fun di bobover [A Bobover melody]?

HN:Yo, yo.

BM:Velkhe nign [Which melody]?

HN:Yo, well, a nign far [a melody for] --

BM:(UNCLEAR) --

HN:-- far shabes, far shabes [for Shabbos, for Shabbos].

BM:A nign far shabes [A Shabbos melody]?

HN:Far shabes, shabes bay nakht [For Shabbos, Shabbos evening] --

BM:Shabes ba nakht?

HN:Yeah. (laughs)

BM:(singing) "T'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Give praise and song to the G-d who created Shabbos], t'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh, t'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh, t'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh, t'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh, t'ni sheyvakh, sheyvakh vishiroh, lo kay lasher, shabes boroh."

HN:Mm! Epes fun melave-malke [Something from the end-of-Shabbos meal, lit. "ushering out the queen"]? (laughs)

BM:Ah, melave-malke -- (singing) "Adir oyom v'noyroh, batzar li likhoh ekroh [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Great, terrible and awesome does not trouble me]." Oh, there are so many songs, man!

HN:(laughs) Shale-shudes [third Shabbos meal before the end of the day] --

BM:Shale-shudes, vo'den [what of it] --

HN:Yeah.

BM:Well, Bobov had several composers -- had many composers.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Besides the rebbes that were composers themselves, they also had Hasidim that composed -- like my father, like Yossele Mandelbaum, like Azriel Mandelbaum, like Chaim Dovid Blum and -- there were many, many, many composers.

HN:So, epes [something] -- from your father then? (laughs)

BM:From my father.

HN:(laughs) Mandelbaum, everybody records, you know? So (laughs) --

BM:(singing) "Eliyahi hanovi, Eliyahi hatishbi, Eliyahi, Eliyahi, Eliyahhi hagilodi, Eliyahi hanovi, Eliyahi hatishbi, Eliyahi, Eliyahi, Eliyahhi hagilodi, Bimhayra, bimhayra yavo elenu, im Moshiakh Ben Dovid, Im Moshiakh ben Dovid, Bimhayra, bimhayra yavo elenu, im Moshiakh, Im Moshiakh ben Dovid [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Elijah, the prophet, Elijah the Tishbite, Elijah the Gilodite, Bring him speedily in our day, the Messiah, descendent of King David].” (sings wordlessly) “Bimhayra, bimhayra yavo elenu, im Moshiakh Ben Dovid, Im Moshiakh ben Dovid."

HN:Wow.

BM:This my father made when he was a boy.

HN:Oh my God, that's incredible!

BM:He had a teacher in Oshpitsin who davened in the Belzer shtibl. And he said to my father -- he said, "Listen. Every week, they're asking me to sing a song there bay [Hebrew: at] shale-shides." "I don't know songs -- I don't know." "Can you make me a song for Barukh Kaleliya [The Rules of Blessing]?" He said, "Yeah, okay." And he made him this song.

HN:Wow!

BM:My father composed when he was a kid. My father, when he was a kid, had a choir.

HN:Whoa!

BM:He had all these boys -- and a couple of older guys than him, you know?

HN:He was the original Oscar Julius.

BM:Yeah.

HN:(laughs)

BM:And he formed a choir and he traveled with them to Bobov, to Bobover rebbe. And they'd sing bay the tish [at the Shabbos table] and the motsi-shabes [end of Shabbos] and this and that. This is a history, you know? Those who knew my father -- he was a very well-liked man. People used to cling to him every time he -- wherever he was -- and he used to sing to them and teach them his songs. And he used to make songs, you know, day and night. (laughs)

HN:And your grandfather also, or no, you don't know?

BM:My grandfather wasn't a composer --

HN:No, just your father?

BM:-- but he was a khazn.

HN:Yeah. Your father, though, was (UNCLEAR) --

BM:My father was a composer. My great-grandfather -- I don't know if he composed, but he -- we sing a lot of his songs that he used to sing.

HN:What's something your great-grandfather sung?

BM:I mean, we -- the stuff that we sing at home that -- that he got from -- "Eyshes khayil [Woman of valor]" and stuff that my father used to sing.

HN:What was his "Eyshes khayil"?

BM:(singing) "Eishes chayil mi yimtza ve'rachok mi-peninim michrahy/Batach bah 79:00leiv ba'alah ve'shalal lo vech'sar./Gemalas'hu tov ve'ln ra kol yemei chayeha./Dar'eshah tzemer u'fishtim va-ta'as be-cheifetz kapeha./Hay-esa ko-oniyos socheir mi-merchak tavi lachma./Va-takam be'oyd Laila va-titein teref le-veisah ve-chok le-na'aroseha./Zamema sadeh va-tika'cheihu mi-peri chapeha nata korem./Chag'erah ve-oz mas'neha va-te'ameitz zero-oseha./Ta'ama ki tov sachra lo yich'beh ba-lailay neira./Yadeha shilchah va-kishor ve-chapeha tamchu falech./Kapah par-esa le-ana -- [Ashkenazi Hebrew: A woman of valor, who can find? She is more precious than corals./Her husband places his trust in her and profits only thereby./She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life./She seeks out wool and flax and cheerfully does the work of her hands./She is like the trading ships, bringing food from afa./She gets up while it is still night to provide food for her household, and a fair share for her staff./She considers a field and purchases it, and plants a vineyard with the fruit of her labors./She invests herself with strength and makes her arms powerful./She senses that her trade is profitable; her light does not go out at night./She stretches out her hands to the distaff and her palms hold the spindle./She opens her hands --]" It's all singsong, you know?

HN:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you get a lot of words in there fast. Whoa!

BM:When you have to.

HN:(laughs)

BM:See, the thing is, a lot of people, when they sing special Hasidic melodies, they sing the song, and they fit the words as they come.

HN:Yes, I know.

BM:So, they run on to the next sentence or they --

HN:Yes, exactly. (laughs) Exactly.

BM:-- they -- so (laughs) --

HN:You like to get the actual sentence in --

BM:That's it.

HN:-- where it's supposed to go. (laughs)

BM:You gotta get the sentence in. So, I knew this old man in Israel who used to 80:00say, "Some people, ven zey zingen, oder blaybt zey brokn oder blaybt zey borsht [when they sing, they're left with either crumbs or they're left with the borsht]" -- so either they're left with words or with the melody. So, you can't -- you can't -- you gotta be able to fit the song in, to make the thing fit! But this is one thing. There was a khazn, Hersh Leib Bakon, who was a khazn in Ciechanów. And he wrote compositions that are just out of this world. And in the house, my father used to sing these things with us. And we'd sing it in Bobov, (UNCLEAR). They were like symphonies. (sings wordlessly)

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

BM:(sings wordlessly)

HN:(claps) Now that deserves applause. When -- (laughs)

BM:Okay.

HN:-- I mean, where would anybody sing that all together?

BM:This is a "Piskhu Li [Hebrew: Open the gates]."

HN:This is a "Piskhu Li" --

BM:It's a Pishku Li Shaare Tzedek from tfile, from Halel.

HN:From Halel -- this is a Piskhu Li I never heard a Piskhu Li that was anything like that. (laughs) That's so interesting.

BM:All right. Well, you've heard one now.

HN:But this is -- what kind of Hasidim is this from?

BM:Bobov.

HN:This is Bobov? This is a Bobov Piskhu Li.

BM:Yeah, this was Hirsh Leib Bakon. He also wrote the --

HN:Wow! (laughs)

BM:Oh! He wrote a Kiddush Hachama march. You know that once every twenty-eight years -- you know that every month you go to have Kiddush Levone, right?

HN:Um-hm. Yeah, sure.

BM:Every month. Kiddush Hachama -- when you do kiddush on the sun, it comes out once every twenty-eight years --

HN:And they play it in the streets, yeah.

BM:-- on erev Pesach.

HN:Yes. Yes.

BM:Okay. So, he wrote a Kiddush Hachama march -- a march for Kiddush Hachama. (sings wordlessly) Then, it goes on and on -- (sings wordlessly) -- this goes on 85:00 84:00and on -- (sings wordlessly) -- and my father remembered all these things, through the war.

HN:Mm.

BM:And he taught it to all the people over here.

HN:Yeah.

BM:And we used to sing it at home. This -- what do you call it? Nu, from Rosh Hashanah, from the davening --

HN:What part?

BM:In the middle of Shemoneh Esrey [The Amidah] in the Musaf --

HN:A kevakoras [prayer from the Unetaneh Tokef, About G-d counting his people like a shepherd counting his sheep], or a --

BM:No, no, no. "V'yesoyu Kol [Hebrew: And all shall come to serve thee]."

HN:V'Yesoyu Kol -- okay.

BM:V'Yesoyu Kol -- (sings wordlessly) -- everything started with an introduction.

HN:Yes.

BM:The introduction was sometimes longer than the song. (laughs) As a matter of fact, I have a book of his music.

HN:Really?

BM:Yeah. The only thing I don't like of the music -- you might know this guy, Dr. Schleifer?

HN:I don't.

BM:Oh, you don't know him? He's in Jerusalem.

HN:Is it Israel Schleifer or something? Is his name Israel?

BM:It may be Israel. I know him.

HN:I think I've heard of him.

BM:He's in Jerusalem. This Hersh Leib Bakon --

HN:He wrote it down? (UNCLEAR) --

BM:He had a bro-- he had a son, a khazn -- Israel Bakon, there are recordings of him --

HN:Barkin, yeah.

BM:Bakon, Bakon -- not Barkin!

HN:Not -- not Barkin, not Jack Barkin. (laughs)

BM:Bakon, B-a-k-o-n.

HN:Jack Barkin was here. (laughs)

BM:No, Jack Barkin was a good friend of mine.

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:I knew his brother Leo and his sister Sara.

HN:Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. No, Bakon, Bakon.

BM:Bakon, Bakon.

HN:Yeah.

BM:This Bakon -- this Hersh Leib Bakon has another son -- a son that lives in Israel. He's an old man now. And he went to this Schleifer to write the book. 87:00Apparently, he sang the songs. He didn't sing 'em correctly. Not very well.

HN:Oh!

BM:I can show you the book.

HN:Oh, so they're not right? And your father sang 'em right. You should --

BM:My father --

HN:-- you should --

BM:-- my father sang 'em right.

HN:I'd love to sit down and correct the book for you --

BM:Because my father learnt these things from a friend of his who was a meshoyrer [choirboy in a synagogue] by Hersh Leib.

HN:Oh, wow.

BM:So, he had the things, like, first-hand.

HN:Oh! As you were saying before, first-hand -- you need --

BM:First-hand.

HN:-- first-hand. (laughs)

BM:First-hand. Straight --

HN:Yeah.

BM:-- straight from the mekor, from the source.

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:So, it was different. And I think -- this is my observation -- same thing you find about nusekh [interpretation]. Did you ever hear Vizhnitzer Hasidim daven?

HN:Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful.

BM:Where? You heard Vizhnitzer Hasidim --

HN:Vizhnitzer -- well, I know people who know Vizhnitzer nusekh, but, I mean, is 88:00it not -- why? You mean --

BM:It's --

HN:-- Vizhnitzer here or Vizhnitzer --

BM:Vizhnitzer nusekh, they all -- they claim that their nusekh is --

HN:Yeah.

BM:It's the most unpleasant thing to hear.

HN:I see what you're saying. (laughs) Okay. So --

BM:The most unpleasant thing. And I have a theory about it.

HN:Ah-ha.

BM:There was a Yaakov Koppel khazn by the Baal Shem Tov, who they claim they're descendants of. Now this Yaakov Koppel khazn was a big rabbi and a big tsadek [righteous person], but probably not necessarily the greatest (laughs) -- the greatest musician or the greatest singer. And I believe that he took the regular world's nusekh and he just -- killed it -- or --

HN:(laughs)

BM:-- what he did -- he couldn't produce it.

HN:Uh-huh.

BM:So, when they get to something -- like where we say, (singing) "L'chu neranena adoshem, norioh litzur sheni [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Oh come let us sing unto the Lord, let us joyfully acclaim the Rock of our salvation]" --

HN: (UNCLEAR), yeah.

BM: I mean, (singing in Vizhnitzer style) "L'chu neranena adoshem, 89:00bay-bay-bay-bay-bay, norioh litzur yi, shey-bay-bay-bay-ni."

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:What's nice about it?

HN:(laughs)

BM:(singing) "Arboyim shono okut b'dor, ba-ba-ba-ba-bay [Ashkenazi Hebrew: For forty years was I wroth with that generation]" -- and they go, (singing) "A ba-ba-ba-bay" -- every word. (singing) "Vuymar am tovey leyvov heym, ey-ey-ey, v'heym lo yadu d'rachey, ey-ey-ey, asher nishbati bi apey-ey-ey-ey, im yovun al-m'nuchasey [Ashkanazi Hebrew: A people who erred in their hearts, and did not know my ways, wherefore I vowed in my indignation that I should not enter the land where My glory dwelleth]."

HN:I think they like the whininess of it.

BM:What's -- what's nice --

HN:That's what they like. (laughs)

BM:Okay, what's nice about it?

HN:(laughs) No, I'm just saying --

BM:As a musician, what's nice about it?

HN:I think what people -- you know, it's funny, I have to say, there's kind of the people who do a lot of "oy" and the people who don't. (laughs) Right?

BM:No, it has nothing to do with oy.

HN:It's like, Vizhnitz is very -- I feel like --

BM:What is it?

HN:-- Vizhnitz is very -- kind of whiny and krekhts-y. It's people like that. You know, they're like, it has a lot of (UNCLEAR) --

BM:Fine, but where's the melodic line?

HN:Well, that's the question. (laughs) That's --

BM:But there's a nusakh.

HN:That's right.

BM:There's -- (singing) "Arboyim shono okut b'dor, v'oymar am tovey leyvov heym, 90:00v'heym lo yadu d'rachoy, asher nishbati bi api." (phone rings)

HN:Right. You're singing it like music, is the point.

BM:It is music!

HN:(laughs)

BM:Nusakh is music! (BREAK IN RECORDING) Farshteyst [Do you get it]? Dos iz es [That's that]. And then --

HN:We should eventually let you do something else, I suppose -- if you're -- but if you're -- we'll sit with you as long as you're (laughs) --

BM:What do you mean, I need to --

HN:-- believe me. (laughs)

BM:What do you mean something else?

HN:Benzion, I mean, my God, this is just -- this is just so -- you know. 'Cause there is no end. (laughs) But you're right, nusekh -- nusekh has -- it's like it's a -- it embodies Jewish musical expression, and so if it's -- it needs to be musical, you know?

BM:There's a reason for it. There's a reason for it. The reason for the -- why does a nusekh on Shalosh Regalim [Hebrew: the three major pilgrimage festivals of Pesach, Shevuos, and Sukkos, lit. "Three Legs"] have to be different than a nusekh from Shabbos and different than a nusekh from Rosh Hashanah? Plain and simple. Years ago, it wasn't like Borough Park or like Manhattan where there 91:00were -- you had shuls; wherever you turned, you went to shul. They lived out on farms. They came into town -- every once in a while, came into town. Not everybody was the big rabbi; not everybody was (UNCLEAR). So you walked into town and he heard this. Oh, today's Shabbos, so he's hearing a Shabbos nusekh. And today's yontev, he's hearing a yontev mode. And that's how he knew when it was. That's what it was. So, there's a reason for it. And the Maharil, who was a poysek [commentator on Jewish law] -- he was not only a musician and a khazn, but he was a great rabbi, and he -- and as a matter of fact, the Rema brings him down as a source. So, he was a great rabbi and a poysek. And he says that you're not allowed to deviate from the nusekh.

HN:And that's already --

BM:So, when they come today and they do a Carlebach Shabbos and they do it -- we're going to do Carlebach nusekh. Carlebach nusekh is good Friday night when 92:00he stays in the nusekh. But as soon as he leaves the nusekh, he's no good!

HN:(laughs)

BM:So, the Shabbos morning nusekh, he is not in the right mode. I'm sorry. And he can't do the Shabbos morning. He cannot do it. Carlebach ahin [here], Carlebach aher [there] -- it doesn't -- it -- es geyt nisht [it doesn't work]. I'm not knocking Carlebach. Carlebach was a dear friend of mine. But --

HN:He's singing tunes, he's singing --

BM:-- in Hebrew there's a saying, "Zelechut v'zelechut." This is separate and this is separate. M'misht nisht oys di oytseres [Don't mix the treasures].

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:That's it.

HN:Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting about -- I like that -- they knew what holiday it was 'cause they learned through the Shalosh Regalim --

BM:Exactly, the moment they walked in.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Sure.

HN:Yeah. And this is -- this is already from the Maharal, probably in the thirteenth century.

BM:Maharil. Maharil. Not the Maharal.

HN:Oh, not Maharal? Maharil.

BM:The Maharil --

HN:Yeah.

BM:-- was before the Rema.

HN:I see.

BM:He was in Germany. He had followers there. His name was Mahari Weil. Mahari Weil.

HN:That's around when?

BM:He was in --

HN:This is in Worms -- (pronounces with German accent) Worms?

BM:In (pronounces with German accent) Worms, Worms.

HN:Isn't it (pronounces with a German accent) "Worms"?

BM:Yeah.

HN:Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah.

BM:Vormayza.

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:I always have to think, 'cause I remember being there --

HN:Yeah, no, I'm trying to remember that --

BM:I have to remember being there, so I have to remember, was it Mainz or is it Worms?

HN:It's Worms. It's Worms.

BM:It was. It was Vormayza, or it's Magentsa.

HN:Yeah, yeah. Huh. Wow. Well, thank you so much for --

BM:Well, it's been a pleasure meeting you.

HN:-- spending this time --

BM:You know, if ever you want to do a project on these compositions --

HN:Oh, it's just --

BM:-- we could do --

HN:We gotta do it.

BM:-- we could do a number on that.

HN:(laughs) It would be great.

BM:No, because I think -- I think the world today, the Jewish world -- is hungry -- how much can you hear the same (sings wordlessly)? That's all you hear today.

HN:Yeah. Well --

BM:The Jewish music.

HN:This is the point. The point is, I think --

BM:And I think -- I think people have had enough of that.

HN:They're ready. They're ready for something, you know --

BM:And --

HN:-- something -- something with some --

BM:The proof --

HN:-- some kishkes [tripe/intestines]. (laughs)

BM:The proof in the thing is, to take a look at the old, old songs -- are still around. They're still singing 'em. (sings wordlessly) People are still singing it. I knew it since I grew up.

HN:Um-hm.

BM:And they're still in.

HN:Yes.

BM:And all the songs coming out from the '80s and the '90s and the 2000, they sing it for a few weeks, for a few months --

HN:That's right.

BM:-- it's gone.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Nobody sings it anymore.

HN:Kind of on the level of Barney -- you know, the purple dinosaur -- you probably --

BM:Yeah. Yeah.

HN:That's kind of the song level that (laughs) --

BM:Yeah. I mean, it's gone. It's gone.

HN:Yeah.

BM:After a few months, nobody sings it anymore. It's hot -- the hot number.

HN:The hot number. (laughs)

BM:Everybody's singing (singing) "Rachem na hashem Eloykeynu [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Mercy, have mercy, lord our God, mercy]" -- until this guy came out --

HN:Lipa Schmeltzer? Or which one --

BM:No!

HN:Which one? Who is it --

BM:Shwekey.

HN:-- who does the Rachem? Oh, Shwekey.

BM:Shwekey. Shwekey.

HN:Yeah, Shwekey.

BM:But there's -- somebody came out on a recording without a name. They say it's Gershon Veroba. I don't know.

HN:Oh, interesting.

BM:And he wrote a song, "I'm Sick of Hearing Rachem."

HN:(laughs) "I'm Sick of" --

BM:Wherever you go, you hear "Rachem."

HN:-- "Hearing Rachem." (laughs)

BM:And he did it to that tune -- to the "Rachem." "I'm Sick of Hearing Rachem."

HN:(singing) "Rachim, rachim, rachim, rachim" --

BM:(laughs)

HN:(laughs) Oh, that's good.

BM:Oh, and he did a beautiful parody on the thing. You know, it's enough with this "Rachem" -- and in some places, it's "Rachaym" --

HN:Yeah.

BM:-- and sometimes it's "Rechem," but still it's -- it's annoying. Wherever you go, you hear "Rachem."

HN:Yeah.

BM:This is what it is.

HN:But what about like what Eli Gerstner does?

BM:All these guys, all these songs -- they're fly-by-nights.

HN:Yeah. Yeah.

BM:They come -- even if it's the first -- the hottest on the charts, and they're there for a week, for a month -- goodbye. It's gone.

HN.Yeah. But this -- this Bobov -- this stuff that you're singing, it's like, that can last forever. That's --

BM:Well, if you can ever --

HN:That's how --

BM:-- get into a Bobov, like on Neileh Sakakh [the closing prayers of the pilgrimage festivals] --

HN:Mm.

BM:-- which is before they close out the yontev or Sukkos and Pesach or Shavuos --

HN:Yeah.

BM:-- you hear thousands of people standing there singing these compositions.

HN:Yes. Yes.

BM:It does somethin' to you.

HN:Yes.

BM:And that's how you continue. And that's how they sing it. You've got to hear my little grandson. He's five years old, he sings these things. His teachers -- the rabbi at kheyder [traditional religious school] teaches him these things. And sometimes I'm standing there lookin' at him, like, How do you know this? He hears this from his teacher. And they continue on the tradition.

HN:Yeah.

BM:You know, there are compositions in Bobov -- very intricate compositions -- that the rebbes composed. Not musicians: the rebbes themselves. Yismach Moshe -- it starts from Yismach Moshe, it goes all the way down till the end, till the brokhe [blessing) of Retze B'm'nuchaseynu (Accept our offering of rest).

HN:Which is the Bobov Yismach Moshe?

BM:Yismach moshe b'matnas chelkoi, ki eved ne'emon koroso loi [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Moses rejoiced at the gift of his destiny when you declared him a faithful servant]. It's a composition. And everything repeats. The Bobover style -- and most Sigeter styles -- in Modzitz, also -- everything is repeated. Every phrase is repeated. (singing) "K'lil tiferes b'roishoi nosato loi, b'omdoi l'fonecho al har sinoi, b'omdoi l'fonecho al har sinoi, b'omdoi l'fonecho al har sinoi u'shnei luchois avonim hoirid b'yodoi, hoirid b'yodoi [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Adorning him with splendor as he stood in Your presence atop Mt. Sinai. Two tablets of stone did he bring down]" -- (singing) "V'khosuv bohem -- What's written in them?" (singing) "V'khosuv bohem, v'khosuv bohem, shimiras shabbos, shimiras shabbos, v'kheyn kosuv b'soyrosecho, v'shomru v'nai yisroel es 98:00ha-shabbos [Ashkenazi Hebrew: And thus is it written in your Torah, the children of Israel shall observe the Sabbath]" -- it's all composition.

HN:It's very composed. Yeah.

BM:Yeah.

HN:Yeah, yeah. It's not like the Satmar Yismach Moshe; it's a totally different thing.

BM:No! It's not a -- it's not a song.

HN:Totally different, yeah. It's totally different

BM:It's not a song; it's a composition. I have a "Ufsarasa kosuv leymor, m'loych al kol oylem kolef [Ashkenazi Hebrew: As it is written in Your Torah, You will reign over the whole world in its entirety]" for rosheshone [Rosh Hashanah]. It's a master com-- these are master compositions.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Even a "Yom Zeh Mechubad [Hebrew: Crown of days]" from Shabbos.

HN:Mm.

BM:(singing) "Yom zeh m'chubod mikol yomim, ki voy shavas tsur oylamim,/sheyshes yamim ta'ase m'lachtecho, v'yoym ha'shvi -- Shabbos lo sa'aseh voy m'locho, Shabbos loy sa'aseh voy m'locho -- ki verochecho mikol ha'amim./Yoym, yoym, yoym 99:00zeh, yoym zeh m'chubod mikol yomim, ki vo shavas tsur oylamim, yoym, yoym [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Crown of days, above all blest,/the Rock of Ages chose thee for His rest./Six days are for toil created/but the seventh G-d has consecrated./Do no labor! Thus He bade us;/in six days a world He made us./Crown of days, above all blest,/the Rock of Ages chose thee for His rest]" -- that's the refrain. (sings wordlessly) (singing) "Oy, lo techsar kol bo v'achalta v'savata, b'rachtoh, es hashem eloykecha asher ahavta [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Lacking naught, give thanks abounding, satisfied, then let thy praise be sounding. Love the Lord thy God Who loves thee]" -- (phone rings) -- "Ki verachecha mikol ha'amim [Ashkenazi Hebrew: From all the nations He approved you]" -- (looking at the phone) it's not important -- "ki verachecha mikol ha'amim." (singing) "Hashomayim [Ashkenazi Hebrew: The heavens]" -- and the "Lecho dodis [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Come my beloved]" --

HN:Which --

BM:There's one famous one that you might know. (phone ringing) There's one famous one that you might know, because there's a part of that "Lecho dodi" in the Mikdash Melech [The place of the king] that is sung at Bobover weddings --

HN:Oh, which --

BM:-- at the khupes [wedding canopies]. (sings wordlessly) -- if it's not here, it's here --

HN:(laughs) --

BM:-- (sings wordlessly) -- they do it at the Bobover weddings when the kale [bride] walks around the khosn [groom]. (phone rings) (singing) "Du-duh, du-duh, du-duh, duh, lecha doydi, du-duh, du-duh, du-duh, dum, likras kala, tra-da-da-da-di-da, tra-da-da-da-do-dum, p'nei shabbos [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Du-duh, du-duh, du-duh, duh, come, my beloved, du-duh, du-duh, du-duh, dum, to meet the bride, tra-da-da-da-di-da, tra-da-da-da-do-dum, the presence of Shabbos]" (sings wordlessly) (singing) "n'kabelah [Hebrew: let us welcome]" (sings wordlessly) (singing) "Shamor v'zachor b'dibur echad,/Hishmi'anu kel 101:00ha'meyuchad./Hashem echad u'shmo echad,/L'shem ul'tiferes v'l'tehila [Ashkenazi Hebrew: 'Observe' and 'Remember' in a single word,/He caused us to hear, the One and Only G-d./The Lord is One and His Name is One,/for renown, for glory and in song]" (sings wordlessly) (singing) "Lechoy doydi --"

HN:Wow.

BM:(singing) "-- likras shabbos, l'chu v'nelcha [Ashkenazi Hebrew: to welcome the Shabbos, let us progress" (sings wordlessly) "Lechoy doydi" -- it goes, (sings wordlessly) -- (singing) "kadoysh melech [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Holy King]" -- and "Hishna'ari [Hebrew: Shake off]" goes the same as "Mikdosh melekh [Hebrew: Sanctuary of the King]," then you go, (sings wordlessly) -- "Hisoyreri 102:00[Hebrew: Awake]" -- "hisoreri --" so, wake up! (throws arms up in a "V" shape)

HN:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BM:So it goes, "Hisoyreri!" (phone rings) --

HN:There we go.

BM:It doesn't stop.

HN:"Hisoreri." (phone rings)

BM:Oh, this is for my wife.

HN:(laughs)

BM:(sings wordlessly) And (phone rings) -- the famous "Kah ribon olam [Hebrew: G-d, Sovereign of all the Worlds]" that the whole world sings, they don't even know it's Bobov.

HN:The --

BM:(singing) "Kah riboyn olam v'al'maya, ant hu mal-- riboyn olam, riboyn olam v'al'maya [Ashkenazi Hebrew: G-d, Sovereign of all the Worlds, You are the Rul-- Sovereign of all the Worlds, Sovereign of all the Worlds]" -- you heard that?

HN:(singing) "Malke [Hebrew: Ruler]" --

BM:(sings wordlessly) It's a whole long composition.

HN:Yeah.

BM:The world sings it wrong. And they argue with you, 'cause they know better.

HN:(laughs)

BM:So, I gave up arguing with them.

HN:Yeah.

BM:This and -- all kinds of compositions. "Shoyshones yakov [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Rose of Jacob]," you name it.

HN:-- I got to a Purim thing at the Bobover shul once here and I remember the -- 103:00hearing --

BM:You heard that -- (singing) "Shoyshanes yakov, tsiholah s'samkhoh [Ashkenazi Hebrew: Rose of Jacob, you have always been their salvation]."

HN:Yeah.

BM:This is the -- but there are several that we sing in Bobov.

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:There's my father's "Shoshones yakov," there's --

HN:What's your father's "Shoshones yakov"?

BM:(singing) "Shoyshanes yakoyv, shoyshanes yakoyv" -- I gotta give you my father's recording.

HN:My G-d!

BM:(singing) "Tsiholah v'samkhoh, shoyshanes Yakoyv" --

HN:I'd love to hear that. Wow!

BM:(singing) "Shoyshanes" -- it's a whole story. And this has a story behind it.

HN:Yeah.

BM:My father was a moyel doing brisn in Germany. After the war, he had a lot of brisn and -- and he went with a cousin. His cousin was a moyel, too. They used to travel together. So, they were on a train. They were going to some different city to do a bris. They were traveling all night. So, his cousin Shloyme says to my father, he says, "It's before Purim. Make a 'Shoshones yakov.'" So, this is 104:00in a train, in Germany, traveling all night, and he's sitting there making the "Shoshones yakov." And there was a goy sleeping there -- this was in Germany right after the war. So, he started yelling at my father, "You should be quiet!" Doesn't let him sleep. So, my father told him to be quiet himself. The Germans were scared of the Jews then.

HN:(laughs)

BM:After the war, the Jews that were left in Germany -- that came back, you know -- they weren't afraid of death. They didn't take anything from anybody.

HN:Um-hm.

BM:My father said, "You sit down and be quiet and go to sleep!" (laughs)

HN:(laughs)

BM:And my father was humming -- he wasn't making noise; he was humming. And he made this whole "Shoshones yakov" at night on the train.

HN:(whispers) Wow!

BM:Yeah.

HN:Wow! That's great.

BM:Well, this was pre-tape-recorder days, where everything was made in your head.

HN:Yeah.

BM:He didn't write anything down.

HN:Yeah.

BM:All of my father's compositions were made in his head. He made it, he had 105:00different -- you know -- (phone rings) -- signs to remember where it goes, what went where. All he needed was a sign to start.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So in your generation, are they learning these songs?

HN:So -- so each -- okay --

BM:Yeah.

HN:-- so that's a good question. Is the younger generation learning these songs? He says his five-year-old --

BM:Uh -- some of them, yeah. The younger generations in the movement, so to speak -- like, that are part of -- yeah, they learn it. Yeah, sure.

HN:If you're into 'em --

BM:Because they're singing it all the time. [BREAK IN RECORDING] The story behind what?

HN:Oh, that was great, you ran the "Shoshones yakov" --

CW:Yeah.

HN:-- on the train?

CW:Yeah.

HN:Oh, that's fantastic. That's --

BM:Yeah.

HN:Yeah

BM:Oh, my father had a lot of stories. My father made a "Hamavdil [Hebrew: The One who distinguishes]" when he was a kid. The whole "Hamavdil" -- you know, "Hamavdil ben kodesh l'chol, chatoseinu hu yimchol [Hebrew: The One who distinguishes between the holy and the daily, may He erase our sins]" --

HN:Yeah.

BM:-- not just the one sentence.

HN:Sure.

BM:The whole --

HN:Yeah.

BM:The whole thing. And he was sitting in the marketplace and the church bells 106:00went off. My father lived on a street called Kościelna. "Kościół" in Polish is a church. His street where he lived was called Kościelna. And I guess the church they had there -- it was going, "Ding, dong, ding, dong" -- and he started -- and he made a whole "Hamavdil" from that "ding, dong."

HN:(laughs) What -- how did it go?

BM:Yeah, it starts like that: (sings wordlessly) -- and that's how he started the whole thing in his --

HN:And it's brilliant! I mean --

BM:Yeah.

HN:-- the whole meaning of "Hamavdil." (laughs)

BM:(laughs) Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even think of that. "Lehavdil [Hebrew: To distinguish]."

HN:(laughs) Lehavdil. Exactly.

BM:That's right.

HN:(laughs)

BM:Yeah.

HN:That's great.

BM:It's --

HN:They were probably tolling it for Saturday night mass. (laughs)

BM:(laughs) The funny thing is, the (UNCLEAR) --

HN:Okay, Jews, you're done with Shabbos; now come to mass.

BM:And my father couldn't remember it. After the war, you know, he was --

HN:Oh!

BM:-- sitting here. And he had a -- one of his choir boys that sang with him -- 107:00that was from the same town, from Oświęcim -- lived in Belgium. And he came to America and he came to visit my father. And they sat one Saturday night and they pieced it together. A little he remembered, a little he remembered, and they pieced it -- it's a long composition; they pieced it together. So, I myself never learnt it. My nephews -- they recorded and they learnt it; they know it.

HN:Wow.

BM:So, I know only pieces of it.

HN:Yeah.

BM:But I don't know the whole thing. So, it's interesting. Even my father forgot a lot of his own compositions, because of the war and this and that. And --

HN:And everybody does the, you know, Rosenblatt "Hamavdil" and hardly any other ones, you know? Or the --

BM:Oh.

HN:-- Rumshinsky "Hamavdil" or the, you know --

BM:Yeah, but these are different. The Rosenblatt "Hamavdil" is very nice.

HN:It's beautiful. Yeah.

BM:My father's "Hamavdil" is a totally different style.

HN:Yeah.

BM:It's a totally different style. It's a totally different style. It's along the Hasidic style.

HN:I love that it starts with the bells. That's (UNCLEAR) --

BM:Yeah, well, that's what gave him the inspiration to make the thing. You know, sitting in a -- and probably heard them -- next door -- the church is right across the street and it was going "ding, dong" and he made the song.

HN:(laughs)

BM:Well, that's how he made songs. My father was -- you know, he had a butcher shop, and they had the fluorescent lights in the butcher shop. You remember the fluorescents used to hum?

HN:Yeah.

BM:Every time that thing hummed, he'd start singing. And he'd start --

HN:(laughs)

BM:Yeah. Yeah. I do the same thing. Listen, I didn't give you all my credentials and all my things. I'm a moyel.

HN:Yeah.

BM:And I'm a shoykhet.

HN:And you're a shoykhet, yeah.

BM:So, I go out and I stand there by the box and I'm standing there and I compose over there. I make songs while I'm standing and shekhting [kosher slaughtering].

HN:Yeah.

BM:Yeah.

HN:So, you do that for the local -- in Borough Park, do you -- there's a particular butcher shop you work with, or --

BM:No, no, no, no. I travel. I go out to -- all over the place.

HN:I see.

BM:To Baltimore and to Connecticut. And then, I go to -- to Pennsylvania and I go to -- you name it. Colorado. And then --

HN:Do you take the kids with you? I wonder, do you --

BM:Sometimes I take my grandchildren.

HN:That's a great thing for -- you know, that's, like, tradition --

BM:No, they don't really want to look at that, you know?

HN:They don't want to? Oh, okay.

BM:It's funny that the --

HN:(laughs)

BM:-- that the sissies, they're the ones that I can get to come. And the big knakers [big shots], you know, they -- they -- no, I don't want to.

HN:(laughs)

BM:It's interesting, you know? Where did my Lubavitcher rebbe go?

HN:He's still trying to get the eytse -- the (UNCLEAR) --

BM:I've got to show you Shlomo Carlebach.

HN:But --

BM:The funny thing is -- see, if I remembered who put it on -- if I --

HN:Then, you could go to their profile --

BM:-- then I could search him and then it'll come up, but I don't remember who put it on.

HN:Well, it's a beautiful (UNCLEAR).

BM:I just was scrolling down this morning, and I happened to bump into it, you know? Some people, you know, they're addicted to this thing, and I don't even know how it works.

HN:(laughs)

BM:(sighs) All right, ikh ken im nisht gefinen [I can't find him].

HN:Oh, no! (UNCLEAR) --

BM:One of these days.

HN:Oh!

BM:It'll probably pop up with a -- by another one.

HN:But it's a great quote. I got a --- well, I'd love to hear it. (laughs)

CW:(UNCLEAR) photo?

BM:Oh, the photo. No, the photo. I wanted to show you --

HN:Oh, it's a photo.

BM:The Lubavitcher Rebbe with --

HN:Oh, with Carlebach.

BM:Shlomo's --

HN:Oh, with Carlebach!

BM:-- Shlomo Carlebach's sitting right behind him over here.

HN:Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. A photo!

BM:Those were the days when he had a nice black beard with a big hat.

HN:Yeah. Okay.

BM:I still remember him when he was like that.

HN:Yeah. Interesting.

BM:Well, you probably remember when he had the big hair with the --

HN:Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

BM:-- the hairdo with the this --

HN:Holy brother this and holy brother that.

BM:Yeah, with the beads --

HN:(laughs)

BM:-- going with the beads. Listen, we were good buddies. In Toronto he used to 111:00come to my house --

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:-- we used to sit, have, like, kumzits [evening gathering for song], we'd sit to sing. It was nice.

HN:That's the cell phone.

BM:Oh, it's Alex again.

HN:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well -- so we should probably move on to --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

BM:Today, in order to sell a recording, first of all, in the Jewish circles, the more goyish it sounds, the better it sells.

HN:Mm.

BM:It's an amazing phenomenon. So, they use all the heavy metal and all the rock and --

HN:Yes.

BM:-- the this, and then they go and they call it Hasidic music.

HN:Yeah.

BM:It disgusts me. It's not Hasidic music! It's goyish music on the Jewish text. What makes it Hasidic? What makes it Hasidic?

HN:There's this incredible tradition that you could build on, and they ignore it.

BM:It's not that they ignore it; they -- zey krikhn in fremde felder [they are 112:00crawling in foreign fields].

HN:Mm.

BM:You know? They're in foreign fields, strange fields. That's what it is. We have so much of our own -- take a look at Janusz in Kraków. He doesn't want Mordechai Ben David. He doesn't want Avraham Fried. He doesn't want Shwekey. He doesn't want all these guys. Because he says, "This is not authentic Jewish culture." This is a goy talking.

HN:Yeah.

BM:This is a goy telling us that this is not Jewish culture. He wants to have authentic, old-time Jewish culture. This year -- we did -- three years ago -- this year we're going back, myself and my family, my sons and my brother-in-law, and we're doing another evening of our -- this type of music --

HN:Mm.

BM:-- where we just sing it.

HN:Oh, great.

BM:We'll make, like, a tish.

HN:A tish, yeah.

BM:With candles -- with, you know, oranges and stuff like that, a little vodka to keep us going.

HN:(laughs)

BM:And we'll just sing away. Just sing away. I'm out there writing out the music -- of course we have -- Frank London plays with us -- Frank and (UNCLEAR), you know, Mike Alpert --

HN:Sure.

BM:-- and Danny Gildar. Maybe we're gonna get Aaron Alexander or somebody, a drummer or someone to join us. So, I'm sitting home busy now writing out all the music for all these -- so last time we did it, we did only Bobover stuff. So, mostly my father's compositions, Yossele Mandelbaum compositions, Azriel Mandelbaum compositions, Chaim Dovid Blum, and then Hersh Leib and -- all the Bobover stuff. Now he wants to go on the whole -- he wants the whole thing. So, I gotta do all different khsides [Hasidic tunes]. So, I'm doing Melitzer music and Gerer music and Belzer music and Vizhnitz and then -- and Bobov and -- 114:00whatever I can get my -- Skulen -- everything I can get my hands on.

HN:Yeah.

BM:So --

HN:Wow.

BM:So, I'm busy writing.

HN:That's great. Oh, that's great. And, you know, you -- it sounds like you -- you're really bringing this to the world, you know? I mean, you're --

BM:In a way --

HN:-- it's not just the Jewish community --

BM:In a way, I am.

HN:I mean, it's interesting, 'cause you're joining with, you know, Frank and Michael and --

BM:Oh, yeah.

HN:-- and Aaron --

BM:Yeah.

HN:-- because, I mean, they're out there. They're just saying, Hey, we've got this thing and (UNCLEAR) --

BM:Oh, they love it.

HN:And, you know, your -- I mean, it's fantastic that you're, you know --

BM:I just spoke to Frank last week. I said, "Frank, we've gotta get together and go over the stuff." He says, "Well, I remember most of it that we did last time."

HN:(laughs)

BM:I said, "No, no, no, no. It's totally different music."

HN:(laughs)

BM:"Nothing from last time." "Oh, so yeah, then we gotta get together." (laughs)

HN:(laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

BM:So, I gotta do comparisons, you know? The way we sing this and the way they 115:00sing it, you know? The --

HN:Oh, sure.

BM:-- how Vizhnitz treats the song and the way we treat the same song.

HN:And Frank's finally learning this. Yay! (laughs)

BM:Frank knows a lot.

HN:That's good. That's good.

BM:Frank knows a lot.

HN:He was my student, too. Frank and Jeff both went to the Conservatory.

BM:Yeah?

HN:Yeah.

BM:How about Greg Wall?

HN:And Greg was my student, too.

BM:Greg? Yeah?

HN:Greg was my student, too. Yeah. No, they all (UNCLEAR) --

BM:But I hear that he's a rabbi now.

HN:He became a rabbi.

BM:He's a good --

HN:Sixth Street shul.

BM:-- good guy. He was on a cruise with us now. He's a terrific guy, Greg.

HN:Yeah. Yeah, Greg's great. Yeah, I'm planning a little festival with him next year, actually, in New York. We're gonna see what we can do.

BM:Really?

HN:If we could involve you in this, it would be great --

BM:I'd love to.

HN:-- if we could. Yeah. We'll try to do that. We'll try to do that. 'Cause it's gonna be in March, and it should be -- you know, it won't be sfire [period between Pesach and Shavuos] and it won't be anything like that, so --

BM:Yeah, March is okay.

HN:-- it'll be good, yeah. It'll be right after Purim. So --

BM:That's perfect.

HN:Yeah. So, I'll talk to Greg about that. (laughs) That would be great.

BM:I promised Greg, one day when we come down, hear one of his programs down there.

HN:Oh, yeah. Yeah. We played -- I played one not that long ago, actually, at 116:00Sixth Street. Yeah. We did a duet --

BM:Oh, yeah! I always get it -- I get it on my Facebook thing, you know, and the -- I see when your name is there.

HN:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

BM:You know, I never put the two and two together, that that's you.

HN:Yeah -- well, whatever, I try to keep a low profile. (laughs)

BM:Like me.

HN:Well, the -- the record -- yeah, exactly. (laughs) Exactly. (laughs)

BM:(laughs) Nobody knows me today.

HN:You don't want 'em to find you. (laughs)

BM:I want you to know that the new generation does not know me.

HN:Now that's the Hasidic generation --

BM:Yeah.

HN:-- is that what you're saying? See, but we know you. (laughs)

BM:They don't --

HN:That's the funny thing. (laughs)

BM:They don't know me. They only know Helfgot.

HN:Yeah, yeah.

BM:Yanky Lemmer, Helfgot --

HN:That's interesting.

BM:-- that's all they know.

HN:That's interesting.

BM:They don't know me.

HN:Yeah.

BM:Because I don't put out recordings lately, you know? Today, it doesn't --

HN:Well, you also don't -- you also don't go with that style -- that they put out the recordings. You know, they put --

BM:No, I'm talking about the khazonish -- I mean, for the khazonim --

HN:Oh, so --

BM:-- that they know --

HN:Oh, you're saying -- you're saying -- 'cause Helfgot keeps putting out recordings and --

BM:Yeah. But it's interesting that Rosenblatt, they know.

HN:Yeah. Oh -- well, because Mendy puts out the recycled Rosenblatt with the 117:00choir that he --

BM:Right.

HN:-- dubs in and (laughs) --

BM:Right. Right.

HN:-- and the interesting reverb and (laughs) --

BM:Right, right, right, right. Fargresert un farbesert [Enlarged and improved].

HN:(laughs)

BM:Well, that's what Boris Thomashefsky did. He was doing Shakespeare, fargresert un farbesert.

HN:(laughs) Exactly. (laughs) That's interesting. Wow. Well, this has been -- you know, azoy a fargenign, mir hobn nisht gehoft [such a pleasure, that we've never dreamed] --

BM:Nah, it's a good laugh, anyway.

HN:(laughs)

[END OF INTERVIEW]