DOLPH KLAINBERG ORAL HISTORY

LYNN YANIS: This is Lynn Yanis, and today is December 3rd, 2012. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Adolf -- Dolph -- Klainberg, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Dolph, do I have your permission to record this interview?

DOLPH KLAINBERG: Yes, you do.

LY:That's wonderful. So, I hoped that you could begin by telling me what you know about your family background.

DK:Well, my parents were both from Poland, born in Poland. My father was born in Warsaw in 1906, and my mother was born the same year in a city near -- not far 1:00from Warsaw -- I guess it was the northeast -- Łomża. They both grew up in quite different circumstances. My father had two sisters, and during the First World War, his parents both died of starvation. And he was raised by his grandmother and his older sister in Warsaw. And my mother came from a very large family of originally twelve, nine of whom -- or eight of whom survived. And slowly, they came to America -- her siblings did -- in the 1920s. And she remained in Łomża. And my father then entered the -- he was drafted into the Polish army (laughs) in the late '20s, and he spent a few years in the army, and 2:00was stationed in Łomża, where he met my mother. So, a lot of the Jewish soldiers were taken in by Jewish families -- you know, for holidays, for meals, and things like that, and somehow he met my mother. And they got together and they decided they wanted to get married. And this was coming close to 1930 already -- they were both in their -- like, twenty-four years old. And my father was a worldly kind of guy from Warsaw; he was not a religious person. He already was -- became more cosmopolitan living in Warsaw, and was active in kind of Left Jewish circles in Warsaw. And my mother's family was -- very traditional, religious family. And I think probably they -- not probably -- they didn't quite 3:00agree on the match. However, it didn't matter to them, to my parents. He was not the kind of person that they wanted, because he was too -- he wasn't a religious person, obviously. So, they decided to get married. And by that time, most of my mother's family was here already -- siblings, that is -- had emigrated. And they couldn't come here, because the immigration laws were so tight. By then, you had to wait years to get a visa, to get in and all of that. And they had friends that were going to Argentina, so they both decided to go to Argentina, where immigration was encouraged at the time. There was a lot of -- massive Polish immigration. And as a matter of fact, my mother, who was twenty-four, was told that her age was a little too young, they might give her a hard time. And it had 4:00to do with white slavery and prostitution; at the time, women were being brought over for purposes of prostitution, and somehow, even twenty-four was too (laughs) old -- too young. (laughs) And so, she had somebody -- this is -- my mother retold this to me, but I believe it, because her documents then were changed by somebody she knew in the document office to make her, like, three years older. So, ever since then, instead of 1906, her birthday was 1909. (laughs) I have no way of knowing whether that was -- I know that's true, but -- whether they were being overly cautious or not, it didn't matter, but they made it. And they had a number of friends that went with them to Buenos Aires. And they lived in Argentina for seventeen years. And that's where my brother and I were born. And they had a tough life there early on -- it was the Depression -- 5:00the early '30s. And my father had a number of jobs: selling to the gauchos out in the Pampas, peddling and coming back. Eventually he became a weaver. He was taught the trade, and there was a big textile industry in Argentina -- Buenos Aires, specifically. And it became to be a good job -- a skilled job, as a weaver. My mother had a variety of jobs -- candy factories that she had -- she had worked that in Poland, as well. So, she also worked until my -- my brother was born in 1935 and I was born in 1940. So, they had a very, you know, interesting life there, because it was a rich cultural haven because there were 6:00so many Polish Jews and other Jews. So, at one time, there were half a million Jews in Buenos Aires, which was the largest Jewish population, outside of New York, in the Western Hemisphere. It was huge. And we belonged to a Yiddish-speaking club called the Yud Lamed Peretz Club. And it was a big organization. And it had sports clubs, it had Yiddish schools in one big campus. It had a library. It had a number of activities that took place. So, it was a real social and cultural club that we belonged to. And we would go there -- and that's where I had my first taste of Yiddish education. Now we were all Yiddish-speaking at home, of course, so that was my first language -- and Spanish, of course, my second language. (laughs) So, I actually had time before 7:00we emigrated here to attend, like, one -- at least one grade -- a year and a half of Yiddish school. My brother, who was five years older, already had gone through five or six years, though. And it was a very, very rich Yiddish experience, because everybody just spoke Yiddish, you know? (laughs) They spoke Yiddish at the club; they spoke Yiddish at home -- even though we didn't live in a Jewish neighborhood in Buenos Aires. And Buenos Aires was a funny area. I mean, they had so many Jews, but there were also a lot of anti-Semites (laughs) at the same time. And especially during World War II, there was a lot of fascist sentiment -- you know, government-inspired. And I remember, like, one anti-Semitic incident -- just as vivid in my mind, that somebody wrote the word "Russian" on our porch -- "ruso." Now, they equated Russians and Jews -- it was 8:00like the same thing. It was definitely an anti-Semitic -- you know, as far as fascist elements were concerned, if you were a Jew, you were a Russian, or into -- you know, vice versa. So, I remember that very clearly; we had to wipe away this smear. This was in the middle of World War II. And there was a -- I do want to share one particular card that I found in my mother's artifacts, and it had to do with -- Holocaust-related, about the defiance of Jews, about what was happening. This was on like a 1942 postcard. And the title is, "Volveremos," or, 9:00"We will come back." In Yiddish, it's "Mir veln zikh umkern" -- at the bottom. "We will come back." It was a defiant thing, that we will come back. I actually blew this up. And the original, if I can read from the back, was issued by the central committee -- this is in Spanish -- "the central feminine committee" -- meaning, women's committee -- and it's a committee -- Jewish committee, "in solidarity with the Soviet Union, England, and all the rest of the countries that fight against Nazi fascism." So, it was a very potent thing. And it was indicative that the Jewish community there was very active in keeping in touch with what's happening with the Jews in Europe. And of course, my father's whole 10:00family that was left in Europe, in Warsaw, was wiped out. My mother still had a brother and a sister that were left in Łomża that also were -- so they all -- most of them went to Auschwitz. So, they had reports of what was happening. I have communications from the late '30s from my father's sisters, and they had children -- it was the whole family. Each one of his sister's had a few chil-- two or three children. So, it was a very -- something that we felt very strongly in Argentina.

LY:Did you talk about it in your home as well as in the club?

DK:Oh, yeah. Specifically, since my father was from Warsaw, I mean, this was the big deal. And reports came of Warsaw -- the uprisings, and -- Warsaw late in the war -- and we were still there -- this was something we always felt. So, I knew. 11:00I was aware of it at an early age, of what was happening. So, the Holocaust was not a strange thing to me. We talked about it at home and in the club. And as part of the Jewish schools, it was said all the time. And the same thing when I -- well, I'll talk about later what happened in New York, but that kind of thing was definitely on our minds, what was happening. So, after the war, we -- my mother was desperately trying to come to -- she wanted to reunite with her sisters. She had five sisters and a brother that were here. So, even though they had a good life there, we had no family --- I mean, it was just friends -- but close friends. So, they applied for a visa in the middle of the war, like, in 12:00nineteen-fort-- it wasn't until 1947 that it was finally approved. And we had to get some guarantees from some of my uncles that they -- we would not be public charges, and all the documents had to be sent through. And I'm sure even some money was sent, because I have the actual ticket that we took -- we took a freighter -- a boat, not an ocean liner (laughs) -- from Buenos Aires. And it was in 1947, in August. We arrived in late September, so the trip took twenty-eight days, because it had to stop to pick up coffee (laughs) in Brazil. (laughs) So, it was a real freighter. There was maybe about a dozen passengers. And the original ticket has all four of us. And it had "Klainberg" with 13:00K-l-a-j-n, which was the Polish spelling of -- really, that's -- the passports were spelled that way, instead of -- we spell it K-l-a-i-n, which in South America would be "Klainberg," because "A" and "I" are short pronunciation -- "ai." And the whole passage -- my brother and my mother and father, it would cost 275 dollars, I see; I had a half-price ticket as a seven-year-old for 137.50. So, the whole deal was -- including some kind of tax -- was, like, 978 dollars. But I'm sure that my mother didn't -- my parents didn't have all that money, so I think some people -- some of her siblings from here sent money for this passage. So, it was a very exciting voyage for me. But of course, this was, like, the second transplanting for them. I mean, here they went to Poland. They 14:00didn't know any Spanish or anything. They arrived in a country that was completely strange to them from Poland. And there, seventeen years later, they come to America. You know, no English. (laughs) You know, another culture. So, it was quite a daring thing for them to do, in both cases. With me, it was like an adventure, you know? I was seven years old and it was great. I had fun on the ship. My brother, however, was quite reluctant to leave Argentina. He was already almost thirteen; he was established. He was the librarian of our Yiddish library in the -- he was quite an advanced, precocious kid. And he would -- I remember him reciting Yiddish poetry there, and he was, like, into living there. He had friends. So, we had to kind of drag him kicking and screaming -- 15:00literally -- but obviously, he had to go. So --

LY:What do you remember about the crossing itself?

DK:Well, one thing is, my father litera-- he actually read to us from Sholem Aleichem during the trip to keep us amused. And it was "Motl peyse dem khazns" -- "Motl, the Cantor's Son" -- which are very funny stories. Very funny stories. And he kept us laughing by reading to us. That I remember. And he had this book, and he read to us every day, every evening -- and I remember that very clearly -- to keep the time going. And it was -- we laughed. I mean, we knew Yiddish very well. It was ingrained, and it was -- they were funny stories. Well, it was 16:00-- the only other thing that was exciting to me -- we stopped at a port in Brazil to pick up coffee, Santos, and it was -- we got off, they let us get off, and the whole waterfront smelled like coffee. Everything, everywhere smelled like coffee. (laughs) That I remember. I have a sense memory of that. And then we stopped in Rio -- but we didn't get off there. It was just docked there. And we ended up in Trinidad for some refueling. And eventually, it went to the port of New Orleans. But before that, the other memorable part is, we hit a hurricane in the Caribbean. And it was a hairy experience, (laughs) because the boat was literally rocking, and we all had our life vests on on the deck, 'cause I thought we were ready to go. And I think everybody in my family was sick as a 17:00dog, because it was -- except me. (laughs) For some reason, I didn't throw up. Anyway, that was memorable, because it was a real Caribbean storm. And fortunately, we survived, and we landed in New Orleans. And we had to get on a train to come to New York. Of course, the first thing we encountered in New Orleans was -- I saw a water fountain that said "colored." And in Spanish, the word for "red" is "colorado," and I thought it said, "red," you know? I said, What is it? Why are they laboring? Well, I didn't learn until a little later what that meant. And the other thing was on the train itself -- so the first experience was getting on this train, trying to find an empty car that would take us with all our belongings, and (laughs) -- which was an adventure. And we 18:00got onto the wrong car -- we got into the, quotes, colored car, and they kicked us out.

LY:Who kicked you out?

DK:The conductors told us we couldn't stay there. We were in the -- that was the car that had the most room for us, so, you know, who knew? I didn't know anything about segregation or anything like that. So, our first experience in the US (laughs) was segregation. (laughs) Which was a little ironic -- I mean, since we came here -- whatever, for a new life and all that. So, we took a train to Penn Station and --

LY:What did you have with you? You said you had a lot?

DK:(sighs) Well, she had -- actually, my mother even had bedding -- you know, it was like some blankets -- she obviously had -- she had some pots and pans. That I remember, because we had them in -- with us from Argentina. So, she had some 19:00household things that she brought with them. It wasn't like we were carrying huge crates, but there was a substantial amount of baggage with us. (laughs) So, we were coming over on the ship -- well, it was the same thing. So, that was -- you could do more than on an airplane, (laughs) maybe. But in any case, we arrived in New York. And we had a little adventure getting to one of my mother's sisters' houses; some taxi took us on a wild ride in the Bronx. We were going to the Bronx -- most of my relatives were in the Bronx -- most of my aunts and uncles. My aunts and one uncle -- they all lived -- so we came to the Bronx and eventually ended up in one of my aunts' houses. It was very hard to get an 20:00apartment at the time, in 1947. And we lived with my aunt -- and my grandfather -- my mother's father was there, actually. And my brother and I slept in the same room as my grandfather. My parents slept, I guess, in the living room, 'cause my aunt had two daughters. In the Bronx -- in the East Bronx. Hoe Avenue -- H-o-e -- Avenue. And we had to stay -- we stayed there for about four or five months, until we got an apartment. And by some sheer luck, an apartment became available across the street: a large apartment, six-room apartment, like, three bedrooms, which was very unusual. I mean, it was perfect for us. But of course, things were so scarce, they had to pay off -- somehow, my mother got money from 21:00somebody -- from either my aunt or some other aunt -- to pay the super so we could get the apartment. It was like, you had to pay a bounty to get the apartment. But anyway, this was a godsend for us, because it was a large apartment. And then, the blizzard of 1947 hit, which was the biggest snowstorm since, I don't know, the blizzard of '88 or something. (laughs) So, we had never seen snow, of course, and -- I was a little kid, the snow was as high as an elephant's eye. (laughs) It was so high we built tunnels across the street. It was wonderful, but it was quite a shock -- you know, to see all this snow falling in the first -- just a few months after we were there. That area of the Bronx became my home for a number of years. And one of the first things my 22:00father did was enroll us in a Yiddish school. And there was one a block away. And this Yiddish school was part of the International Workers Order. Now this was a left-wing branch, versus the Workmen's Circle schools, which were a little more to the right, and this was to the left -- this was that whole split. And my father somehow found out about this. And it was -- I remember very clearly the num-- there was little shules [secular Yiddish school] all over the city; this was shule number thirty-two, on Hoe Avenue. And it was a block away. And that's what I attended for -- as soon as I arrived, from the age of eight. And I had this wonderful teacher, just a terrific guy, called Sheen Daixel -- D-a-i-x-e-l. 23:00And he was quite a character, and a wonderful storyteller. So, we learned everything there is about history, the Bible, and -- in story form, (UNCLEAR) stories. And in addition, he would tell us stories about his experiences. Of course, I didn't know then that they were real, that this was really -- so he would talk about his life with the Indians in the West -- the Hopi Indians. I said, Wow -- in Arizona. And I thought he was -- these were good, great stories. I didn't learn until later that he was a writer, he was a Yiddish writer, and he actually wrote about these things in books in the 1920s. And so, he was quite an adventurer. He also traveled through Asia when he was younger, and he wrote a book about that. And I didn't -- until I got ahold of some more books -- I got a few books from the Yiddish Book Center of his. I brought one that I had bought 24:00here, and it has his picture. Not only did he talk about the Indians, but he looked like an Indian. He was very tall -- he had to be at least six feet or more -- tall and lanky, and he had these features that were dark and long that really looked like Indian features. And I always thought, My God, he talked about the Indians. He looks like an Indian himself, you know? And then, when I looked at his bibliography, I saw that he has, like, "Indyanishe dertseylungen," "Indian Stories," which he printed in 1957. And then, he had other -- "Asian Stories" -- "Azyatishe dertseylungen," which is "Asian Stories," that he had in 1924 -- he had it. So, he had about seven, eight books that were printed. And he 25:00was actually a prominent writer, but I didn't know that when I had him. We were so close. He was such a mentor as far as Yid-- not only Yiddish language, but history and literature. I have one picture of him and me; he took us to the Statue of Liberty -- and this is a very early picture, I think it was 1948. And here we are at the Statue of Liberty. So, this guy did more than just teach Yiddish. He was a mentor. I was definitely only about eight years old when he took us there, so I kept -- I'm a very -- I keep things, so I have a treasure trove of documents. And this school by the International Workers Order was part of the organization -- I had taken a graphic of -- from some book that I found, 26:00and it shows that the -- in Yiddish it says, "Der ordn bay der arbet" -- "the Ordn," which is the Jewish name for the Order, "at work." And in the picture, it says, "kultur" -- "culture"; "gezunt" -- "health"; "insurance" -- very important; and "sport." Those were the key words, the keystones of the organization. But of course there was more to it than that. They were left-oriented, and were very sympathetic at the time to the Soviet Union all the time. That was the big split -- until later, when they -- well, later on, of course, the organization was finally disbanded. In the late '50s, when the McCarthyite period came, they declared it a subversive organization, because it was too left. At the time, everybody was subversive, but this one was definitely 27:00a subversive, and they broke it up. And of course, later on, with all the revelations about what Stalin did to the Jews, it became clear that most Jews, even ones that were sympathetic to the Ordn, that things were not right in the Soviet Union. (laughs) In any case, at the time, though, the schools that they ran were very potent as far as I was concerned, 'cause they taught me everything I know about Yiddish culture, Yiddish history, Yiddish literature. And to me, I went on from this public school, which was the elementary part of the school system, to mitlshul [high school], which was the next step -- four years at a higher level. So, from the age of, let's say, twelve to fifteen, I attended 28:00mitlshul. And that took place in the Bronx cooperative apartments, which is the Coops -- which was like a bastion of left-wing Jews in the Bronx for many years, when it was formed as a housing cooperative. The schools that were there were Yiddish schools that people started from nursery on. But I went to the mitlshul part. And they had rooms in the basements of all the -- and on the ground floors of all the buildings that were the Yiddish school. And that's where I went for four years. And it was a wonderful experience, because -- I would travel there, to the East Bronx, by train once a week. And we had wonderful teachers. And it was a very rich cultural experience. We had choral groups led by a choral 29:00director who my father -- well, I'll talk a little bit more about my father later, but his name was Moishe Rauch, Maurice Rauch. And he was a famous -- at least a very well-known choral director and composer. And he would lead our music program, our choral program. So, every year we would have at least one concert, maybe two, of choral music, and we would rehearse all kinds of Yiddish choral pieces. And we had --

LY:What were some of the pieces?

DK:It was very interesting, but I brought -- well, first, I brought a playbill from one of our concerts -- Bronx mitlshul -- it was called the Bronx because there was another mitlshul in Brooklyn, but this was the Bronx mitlshul. In one 30:00of the concerts, I actually played in a Sholem Aleichem play as Elye -- in another Motl play. And in addition to play -- so we had acting. We acted out the plays. And we had dance -- dance programs. And those were led by -- also, at that time, a prominent dance teacher, Edith Segal. And she was involved in kind of avant-garde, left-wing, Yiddish, Jewish-oriented dance programs. She was also director of dance at the camp that was run by the IWO, Camp Kinderland. So, she was very well known. And we would do dances with Jewish themes. Like, I remember clearly, her signature dance was a dance called "Hobn mir a nigndl." "We have a 31:00song," okay -- a "nigun" is a "song" -- and it was done with traditional kind of costume, European costumes by -- it talks about grandparents and their children, and we would dance at -- it was really part of the cultural program of the school. But more than that, we had certain -- I brought a cantata that we used to sing, and it was indicative of the kind of the education -- that it wasn't just Yiddish education, but it was something that put you in touch with other peoples at the same time. So, the orientation was not just that you were a Jew, but you had in common with other immigrant groups a lot of commonality. And the key of this particular cantata -- the name of it was "Mir boyen a land," "We are building a land." And it had to do with literally, immigration of different 32:00peoples to this country. And I just remember the tune -- I mean, I just remember the song. Like, (sings) "S'iz andekt gevorn unzer land fun oyslender, fun tsvey: der ershter iz kolumbus, der tsveyter iz kartye." So, it's like -- this is just one stanza -- so, "The land was discovered by strangers: one was Columbus, the other was Cartier." And then, there was a chorus, which was also significant: (sings) "M'hot dem fremdn oyfgenumen, gegebn im di hant, vayl ersht nekhtn iz bay yederer fremd geven do in dem land." I may be singing the second -- the men's part, but not the melody, 'cause we (laughs) -- we had harmony. But the 33:00essence of what I just sang is: "We welcomed" -- "M'hot dem fremdn oyfgenumen" -- "we welcomed strangers, we gave 'em our hand" -- "gegebn im di hant" -- "vayl ersht nekhtn iz --" -- "because yesterday, everyone was a stranger in this land." Now, this was pretty much indicative of the kind of education that I was steeped in, that had to do with acceptance and being in solidarity with other immigrant groups, and also other oppressed groups, as well. So, the orientation -- it wasn't like we were being politicized in a way that was very blat-- it was a very sound and very healthy outlook of what it means to be a Jew. And what it 34:00means to be a Jew is to work for social justice, to work for equality, to work for peace -- those are the themes that persisted in me. And a lot of it came from Yiddish schools, because it wasn't taught in public schools, obviously. So, we were way ahead of the curve when later on, those became the big issues -- when civil rights became a big issue, and the Vietnam War and peace issues, and anything about oppressed peoples over the whole world, which has been happening all along. So, that's the kind of thing that we learned. So, we knew that when we learned about Passover, that we could relate it to, you know, the black people -- in that time, we called them the Negro people (laughs) -- to be free of their oppressors. So, when we sang Pesach songs, we could also sing "Let My 35:00People Go" -- you know, Negro spiritual. So, it was very -- a good way for us to learn that we Jews stood for more than just us alone. We wanted everyone -- just like we wanted to be free from the Romans, from the Assyrians, from the -- whatever the holiday was, the holidays that we learned were related to real fights for freedom, whether it was Hanukkah or Passover. So, just like when we learned the heroes -- Bar Kokhba, the Roman revolt -- or the Maccabees, Hanukkah, or the Purim -- Esther and whatever fighting against other oppression -- it was always related to oppression throughout the world. And it was a good way for us to learn that the Jews had an ethical -- being that was not just, 36:00Okay, it's just Jews, we're chosen, and that's it.

LY:It's a beautiful example about the Passover songs. Can you give any specific examples from other holidays, how you celebrated in your home?

DK:Well, I'm trying to remember. I didn't come prepared. I had so many songbooks of holiday songs. But every holiday, everything that we celebrated had songs related to it, in addition to the traditional -- I mean, "Khanike oy khanike [Hanukkah, oh Hanukkah]" -- you know, "a yontef a sheyner [a beautiful holiday]." Something like -- for Passover, like, (sings) "Vol' keyn moyshe nit 37:00gevezn, vol' keyn peysekh nit gevezn. Vol' keyn peyzekh nit gevezn, dayenu. [If there were no Moses, then there wouldn't have been a Passover. If there hadn't been a Passover, it would have been enough]." There were no Moses, you know, Passover -- there were -- you know, "Dayenu [It would have been enough]" -- but it was more than just the heroes, but it was the significance of the fight for freedom that was there. So, there were always songs; songs were really an integral part of my whole education. And of course, when my father -- getting back to him -- was a singer. And he participated in what at first was a series of choruses that -- he was from the Bronx, so there was a Bronx Jewish People's Chorus, which was led by this Maurice Rauch, and there was one in Brooklyn, and there may have been one in another borough, as well. But eventually, they 38:00consolidated to the Jewish People's Philharmonic Chorus, which had yearly concerts. And my father was a tenor, and he sang in this chorus for years, and this was his life. And even when in -- later on, when he moved to Miami Beach with my mother for the last years of his life, he sang in choruses there. So, he was always a choral singer, and he was always a solo singer. And I have his portfolio of all his Yiddish songs. (laughs) He had a multitude. And in fact, I have reel-to-reel tapes that he made of himself singing Yiddish folk songs. So, I have a big treasure trove of his songs. And I could always hear him singing. And I actually remembered that he sang to me certain songs when I was a child. 39:00And later on, I asked him to transcribe it. But some of them were quite involved. But I'm just gonna give you a small taste, because this is a song that kind of builds. And it's about a teacher who had ten daughters, and how the ten daughters got married to ten guys, and what they did. And as it builds -- it really is based on the alef-beys [Hebrew alphabet] -- so the ten daughters are, you know, alef, beys, giml, dalet, hey, whatever, in that order. And then, their mates were also --- so, I'll just give you a small taste.

LY:Please.

DK:I had him write it down for me one day, 'cause I couldn't remember all -- 'cause he got to -- it kind of build. First they got married; then they had certain professions -- or they came from certain towns, and that's also in alef, beys, giml. And they had certain professions, and they dealt in this. And so, it was all based on the first ten letters of the alef-beys. So, it's called "A mol iz geven a melamedl [There once was a Hebrew tutor]." So: (sings) "A mol iz geven a melamedl, oy oy oy, a melamedl, oy oy oy, a melamedl./Hot er gehat tsen tekhterlakh, oy oy oy, tsen tekhterlakh, oy oy oy, tsen tekhterlakh./Di ershter hot geheysn esterl, di tsveyter hot geheysn brokhele, di driter hot geheysn gitele, di ferter hot geheysn dorele, di fifter hot geheysn hendele, oy oy oy 41:00oy, hendele, oy oy oy oy, hendele./Di zibiter hot geheysn vakhtshinke [There was once a Hebrew tutor, oy oy oy, a Hebrew tutor, oy oy oy, a Hebrew tutor./He had ten daughters, oy oy oy, ten daughters, oy oy oy, ten daughters./The first was named Esther, the second was named Brukhe, the third was named Gitl, the fourth was named Dora, the fifth was named Hinda, oy oy oy oy, Hinda, oy oy oy oy, Hinda./The seventh was named Vashti]" -- I'm sorry -- (sings) "Di zekhster hot geheysn vakhtshinke, di zibiter hot geheysn zeldele, di akhter hot geheysn khayele, di naynter hot geheysn tobele, di tsenter hot geheysn yentele, oy oy oy oy, yentele, oy oy oy oy, yentele. [The sixth was named Vashti, the seventh was named Zelda, the eighth was named Eve, the ninth was named Tova, the tenth was named Yenta, oy oy oy oy, Yenta, oy oy oy oy, Yenta.]" I'll do one more.

LY:Please.

DK:(sings) "Zey hobn zikh genumen khasonimlakh, oy oy oy, khasonimlakh, oy oy oy, khasonimlakh./Der eshter geheysn avremele, der tsveyter geheysn berele, der driter hot geheysn gedalyele, der ferter hot geheysn dovidl, der fifter hot geheysn hershele, oy oy oy oy, hershele, oy oy oy oy, hershele./Der zekhster hot 42:00geheysn velvele, der zibiter hot geheysn zavele, der akhter hot geheysn khaymele, der naynter hot geheysn toyvyele, der tsenter hot geyeysn yosele, oy oy oy oy, yosele, oy oy oy [They each took a husband, oy oy oy, husbands, oy oy oy, husbands./The first was named Avrom, the second was named Boris, the third was named Gedalya, the fourth was named David, the fifth was named Henry, oy oy oy oy, Henry, oy oy oy oy, Henry./The sixth was named Wolf, the seventh was named Zev, the eighth was named Haim, the ninth was named Tom, the tenth was named Yosl, oy oy oy oy , Yosl, oy oy oy] --" And it goes on and on. And it's just a wonderful song.

LY:Marvelous.

DK:It just builds. And then, it mentions a bunch of towns, some of which I've never heard of, because they have to conform to the alef-beys, and they're small towns. And it's just an example of the kind of things he would sing. And I never forgot that song. And he was always singing, the guy was always singing. So, I was very steeped in Yiddish song and Yiddish folk music, both from shule and from him.

LY:Can you give me a sense of sort of how much was happening in the home and how much in the community? Were there visitors in the home? All of this storytelling 43:00and wonderful singing and -- can you locate it physically for me?

DK:Well, so the Bronx at the time, when we lived there, was a tight Jewish community. We stayed there for -- right through high school, I guess. So, we had a very big park near us, Crotona Park, which is a wonderful park, where I learned all my sports: learned how to play tennis, I learned basketball, everything. In addition -- and my father had a circle -- my father was the social butterfly. My mother really played second fiddle to him in terms of social -- 'cause he had a whole coterie of friends that sang and played instruments. So, at that time, you could go in the park at night and -- be no issue. And it was a huge park. So, evenings and weekends -- primarily evenings 44:00of weekends, mostly -- we would go in the park, and there was an area of benches where his friends would hang out, singing all evening, just singing. You could just walk over there and hear them singing. Either somebody got up and sang solo, or they would all sing together. And somebody had a mandolin. And later, my father taught himself to play the mandolin, which was a miracle. I never thought he would learn an instrument, but he did. And he would accompany himself with a mandolin. So, a lot of his life was centered around song, and a lot of his friends were involved in the choruses or were singers. So, from that point of view, they had a very rich life -- of a big coterie of friends. The apartment 45:00at home -- I don't remember there was that kind of entertainment. It was really outside. There was banquets that took place and events and lectures -- and they would go out and do stuff. But our home -- I mean, my father was not a big earner. Here he was struggling. He had seasonal work as a textile worker. And he would have to go to Paterson, New Jersey to some textile mills, and they were not factories that worked all year round. So, he was out of work a lot of the year -- on unemployment insurance or whatever. And my mother had -- was the manager of that. She was good. She was the money manager. So, she would -- we actually rented out to boarders. So, she had one room; she would put out a sign in the local grocery store and a boarder would rent, with kitchen privileges -- 46:00they would be able to do breakfast. And I remember, there was a whole coterie of boarders at a certain time, and she actually got us the income that we needed to sustain ourselves. We never thought we were starving, but we weren't well-off, that's for sure, 'cause my father never had regular work. So, it wasn't until later years that -- later in his life, my brother and I -- it was mostly my brother -- got the idea they should have some income that would give them a little more return so they could retire nicely, so we ended up -- they started a self-service laundry, one of the first ones -- the coin-operated laundry that was in the Bronx. There was a Bendix laundry not far from our house -- and by that time, they had moved a few blocks away, on Boston Road and Seabury Place in 47:00the Bronx, and right out on the corner, on Boston Road, we rented a store and we got these twenty washing machines and six dryers. And we had to get a loan for it, but eventually it paid off, because it was -- you could pay it off. And that was the best -- that was probably the only time in his life that they actually had income that was substantial coming in. And then, after about four or five years of that, they had enough money that they wanted to retire -- they wanted to -- so they went to Miami Beach. And out of the blue, they bought this little house with three other couples, this two-story -- at that time, South Beach was not what it is now. It wasn't the hot -- but it was a hotbed for older people. (laughs) But they actually cooperatively bought this little four-unit house, a 48:00little two-story.

LY:Were those people that they knew from the Bronx?

DK:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They got together with friends.

LY:So, other Jewish families, other friends?

DK:Yes. And there was a Jewish Community Center nearby -- very close, on Fifth Street -- also that was very active, that had all these activities and choruses and lectures and guests. So, they were able to make -- and then there was a park along the beach where you could sit with your friends and sing -- and bring your mandolin. And this was the best time of their life. They had all -- again, another coterie of friends that were singers. And my father had a ball. He loved it there. Unfortunately, he died early. He got this stroke when he was sixty-nine, which was relatively early. And of course, he never went to a 49:00doctor, so he never -- he always was the picture of health, but the stroke got him, and he passed away when he was up here. He used to come up north for the winter -- for the summer, I mean. So unfortunately, that was cut short, because he had a ball down there. So, my mother remained in Miami Beach for a number of years afterwards, until eventually she went to live with my brother. And she lived in Long Island. And she lived a long age -- I mean, she lived till ninety-six, so she had a long life. And both of them read Yiddish papers all their lives. And they were both not formally educated. But they knew Yiddish literature, and they knew history. They were self-educated, but just by reading. There were always books around. I caught my mother reading a Yiddish version of 50:00Guy de Maupassant. I mean, really -- classic books in Yiddish. And she was not educated at all, really. And I was so shocked. But they read the left-wing paper, the "Morning Freiheit," for years. And then, when that went out of business, my mother just continued with the "Forverts," 'cause she needed to have a Yiddish paper to read.

LY:A very strong sense of values that they shared --

DK:Absolutely.

LY:-- that they brought with you.

DK:Absolutely. I mean, everything I really learned -- my father was the stronger figure, and the kind of values I got were really from him for the most part, 'cause he verbalized -- and we discussed things and -- so a lot of it I got from him. And a lot of it I got from Yiddish schools, as well. Because after a while, you absorb certain values and ethics. And they stayed with me. They stayed with 51:00me, 'cause I later became involved in civil rights and peace. And my sentiment has always been -- especially for labor justice. 'Cause we learned about it. We learned about the sweatshops. We studied all the poets: Morris Rosenfeld and David Edelstadt and, you know, the sweatshop poets. And we sang their songs -- you know, "Ikh hob a kleynem yingele, a zunele gor fayn./Ven ikh derzey im, di gantse velt iz mayn. [I have a little boy, a fine son./When I see him, the whole world in mine.]" -- "I have a little boy" -- that was his -- Morris Rosenfeld's famous poem about his son that he only sees his son at night because he had such long hours. And all these values kind of -- even recently, when I just read about this big fire in Bangladesh of garment workers that couldn't get out of the building, I said, My God, this is like the Triangle Fire all over again. 52:00These people are being exploited just like Jewish girls were and Italian girls were exploited back in, you know, a hundred years ago, or close to a hundred years ago, in my neighborhood, where I live, at the Triangle Factory. So, these values are still there. I think about this. This is ridiculous, you know? We're really repeating once again, and it's happening there. And over a hundred women died, and they couldn't get out; the exits were closed. This is the kind of stuff I already knew. So, way before a lot of this stuff was in the consciousness of other -- you know, of the general public, I learned at an early age about these values and social injustice and labor injustice and the fight for wages and a decent living. All these values that then became standard, even 53:00though we're going a little bit backwards again. But standards of equality, of equal rights: these were values that were Jewish values as far as I was concerned. And they stuck with me, obviously.

LY:At the same time, I think of that time in New York City as an era of assimilation, and your family was making other choices.

DK:That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. My parents were really unlike the rest of my mother's family. My mother's family had been here for many years. They really became Americanized, you know, to the full extent, and really had no real connection -- cultural connection -- that we had at all. We stood 54:00out as far -- now that I look back. We were involved in so many things that had to do with Jewish culture and history, and they were completely divorced. But I think they were typical of Americanized Jews that were not really -- you know, they were involved in being integrated into our society, and that was it. They were assimilated, in many ways.

LY:What do you think made it different for your family?

DK:Well, the schools alone were a big influence. But I think the orientation of my parents -- the fact that he already was an educated -- educated not in formal education -- even from Poland, from the Warsaw period, and in Argentina, he already was involved and interested in what's happening in the world and what's 55:00happening to Jews, so he came from a background that made it possible to transmit these values to us. Whereas if I had to compare with the others, they were -- I mean, people were involved in making a living, coming to this country, and then sending their kids to school and ordinary stuff that everybody else was involved with. As far as culturally or -- they really didn't have that connection. They didn't read Yiddish papers; they didn't -- I mean, even though some of them -- my aunts can speak Yiddish -- they could -- but it was street Yiddish. I learned what I consider literary Yiddish when I went to school. Everybody had accents, you know, when you'd talk to people, regional accents. But I learned at an early age what you -- when you recite a poem and there is no 56:00accent -- you know, there is the established Yiddish. And of course, I became like a Yiddishist in many ways, because -- like, I have a large collection of books, and I collect posters when I see it, I have some -- Molly Picon posters -- when she visited Argentina, 'cause she would travel throughout the world, so she would have concerts -- I have a few posters at home of her appearing in Ar-- in the 1930s she would come -- Argentina was a big stopping place for theater people and arts people, 'cause looking at it, the population was so huge, so it was a place that had Yiddish theater, as well. So, I did become a Yiddishist. But more than that -- it was more than just the language; it was the values. In fact, I was a little teed off when Israel never recognized Yiddish as one of the 57:00official languages. I thought that was a big slap in the face to Jewish culture and our whole history -- you know, the language being our language, with a literature and a history -- I mean, a real literature -- and for hundreds of years, as well as the spoken language. To have kind of said, Oh, it's not worthy of becoming an official language of the Jewish people was a terrible, a terrible thing. Now I think there's been a little revival, from what I hear, in Israel: that they're trying to -- you know, the language is being revived a bit. But I'll never see it. I don't have that much of a chance now that my mother's passed away; I would speak to her in Yiddish all the time when she was alive -- and half Spanish, as well. I mean, whatever came to my mind, but mostly Yiddish. It was kind of Spanish and Yiddish, but mostly Yiddish. And the most Yiddish -- 58:00I've run marathons, so I run through -- you know, there are certain Hasidic neighborhoods -- I've run, like, eight marathons already -- so the most Yiddish I get pleasure from is running and seeing these little Hasidic girls standing and watching. They're all dressed up and I'm yelling, you know, "Sheyne meydele, vos makhstu [Pretty girl, how are you]?" And they're like -- look startled that some runner would be speaking Yiddish to them. So, that's (laughs) -- that's the most practice I get. I get more practice in Spanish, 'cause I go to Miami Beach every year. (laughs) And there, Spanish is very prominent among Cubans.

LY:In the middle years, as you built your career and your family, how did you decide to pursue a career in social work?

DK:Well, I went through all the city schools, which were all within walking distance (laughs) through high school, in my neighborhood. And then, I went to 59:00what was then considered the right path, the City College of New York. And it was a very good college. And it was hard to get into. So, I initially pursued some engineering course, but I very soon found out, after a year, that I was not meant to be an engineer. (laughs) Because I had little problems with spatial relationships and drafting and I didn't have that three-dimensional ability. And so, that went by the -- so, I went to my second love, which was history. So, I majored in history. And when I got out, I actually taught for about a year -- two years -- in the public schools. And again, I wasn't happy. I just thought it was too much involved with discipline, and I didn't have a chance to really 60:00teach, even though I loved teaching history. And so, I turned to my third love. (laughs) So, I said, Let me become a social worker. So, the easiest place to go was with the city, which had public assistance at the time, in large numbers. And they sent me to social work school, so I got a master's degree in social work, which was great, 'cause it was paid -- with salary. At the time, there was so many subsidies that it was a wonderful program, so I didn't even have to stop working or stop getting a salary. So, I went for two years in social work school. And I was involved in a number of programs which were close to my heart. They were adolescent programs and programs for the aged and this was something I could relate to, you know? They're helping professions, and it's something that I naturally gravitated to. Eventually, though, I became a manager, so I managed 61:00larger programs of -- as I moved up the ladder. So, after about thirty years -- thirty-two years -- I thought, Let me retire now. (laughs) And I retired early; I retired when I was fifty-five, really. And I was fortunate, 'cause I had so many years already, and the pension system was very generous, and I had met my wife in the same -- in the city agency where I worked. So, we were both social workers -- she also had a master's degree in social work -- so we had things in common. And this is my second wife, I'm sorry, that I had met. But I had three children with my first wife. And they grew up in Goldens Bridge, New York, which 62:00is a summer community. I lived in the Bronx, but every summer, they would go to -- and it was another -- a cooperative community that was made -- also of like-minded -- mostly Jews that had formed this cooperative community back in the 1920s, when workers were forming these co-ops to get away from the city and everybody had an acre of land. So, they were simple cottages that were built, and there was a lake and a barn and a community house. And they had a wonderful childhood growing up summers there. And two of my daughters actually have houses there now. (laughs) Well, my oldest daughter has a permanent house there. I had given her the property that I had; then she knocked it down and built a nice house 'cause the old one was just a cabin. And she lives there with her mother, 63:00who has an apartment. And my oldest daughter just recently bought a house -- for the summer, really -- and with my other -- with my son. So, I have two daughters and a son. And so, they actually spent summers in a community that were also kind of Jewish, left-oriented, and had the kind of upbringing -- but did not have the Yiddish part, that part. I think I got them to start shule early -- I had a few attempts with my oldest daughter, but it didn't go very far. You know, it just never caught on, and I was not able to really transmit that kind of enthusiasm that I had, and so it wasn't the same thing. It was probably 64:00indicative of the generational trend, even though there are some parent-- there are still Yiddish schools around where, if one really persisted, one can find a Yiddish school. They did not. So, they really don't have the Yiddish feelings that I have. But they have other values (laughs) -- Jewish values (laughs) -- that are just as important. But they don't have the Yiddish content.

LY:Well, that's such an interesting question, sort of -- what is the importance of language in your own Jewish identity?

DK:(sighs) Well, to me, it was primary. I mean, it was only primary 'cause that was the language that was always spoken at home. That's the way I could essentially communicate. My parents never really were super fluent, even in 65:00English. I mean, they could get along; my father had to go out and work and my mother had to go shop and do things, but not -- they weren't the kind of fluency -- actually, they were more fluent in Spanish than they were in English. 'Cause I think they had to do more talking of Spanish when they were in Argentina; we didn't live in a Jewish neighborhood, so the shopkeepers weren't all Jewish when they -- where they lived. Whereas in the Bronx, every shopkeeper was Yiddish-speaking when we lived there. When she would go shopping, she didn't have to switch to English very much. So, there was a very strong connection there early on and throughout. So, I always thought it was intertwined with -- it was all part of the same, you know, gestalt. I mean, it was really -- there 66:00was no separation between the language and values, because they were all so integrated -- in the Jewish school and at home.

LY:And in the next generation, your children, the transmission of values was strong, but not the language so much?

DK:Right. Yes. I mean, I know that when they went to visit my mother, my mother would very often speak in Yiddish, for the most part, and at least some of my children would listen, and they would understand a little bit, and would answer her in English. But they would understand. So, they absorbed some Yiddish, 'cause they had to communicate with her. But my mother -- they would -- you know, when they would visit. But values apparently came from us, from my parents. And also from that community that I talked to you about in Goldens 67:00Bridge, 'cause they were involved in social kind of movements and civil rights kind of stuff -- and the kind of stuff that were Jewish values, in my opinion, but were transmitted and that were translated into what was happening in the world. And my oldest daughter actually went to Camp Kinderland, also. And actually, one of her children just went for one year recently. And that's a camp that also now still -- transmit values of decency and social justice and stuff like that. So, a lot of this is transmitted in a variety of ways, but not necessarily through language, though.

LY:And do you ever return to Argentina?

DK:Well, we went back for one nostalgic visit in the '70s, when my father and mother were alive. And I went with my brother and his family at the time. So, we 68:00did make one big visit -- just once. And my brother had been back more than that, 'cause he was involved in international transportation, and he was able to go there more often. But we had a nostalgic visit, where we visited some of the older friends that were still there, were still alive, and their children. So, we still had strong ties to friends, even in the '70s. 'Cause there were a very tight number of friends that we used to socialize with there -- that came from Poland with him. So, that was a very nice visit. And it was nice. And I remembered the old neighborhoods. And we visited the club that I talked to you about, the I.L. Peretz, but it was defunct. It was an empty building now. So, 69:00that was gone. But there are still 250,000 Jews in Buenos Aires, so it's still an active community. Actually, I had -- I don't know if I showed you -- this photo of myself and my brother when we -- just before we left for Argentina. And my brother was five years older -- he's the bigger one; I'm the small one. (laughs) And there, everybody wore shorts until you became thirteen. And when we arrived here, we had shorts on, 'cause we were -- he wasn't quite thirteen. In January, he would turn thirteen, so he didn't graduate into manhood until -- after thirteen you could get long pants, but shorts were considered the (laughs) --

LY:In Argentina?

DK:Yes. Yes.

LY:Then you came to New York and faced a blizzard --

DK:Right. Well, we had to get long pants very quickly, (laughter) as well as 70:00warm jackets and hats and everything else that we needed. 'Cause we have pictures of ourselves in the snowstorm in Crotona Park with snow all around and -- it was very interesting at the time.

LY:As we come towards the end of our interview, is there anything else you want to be sure that we talk about?

DK:Well, you asked me earlier what connection we had to the -- maybe the Holocaust when we were in Argentina or the Warsaw -- I started to talk about the Warsaw Ghetto, which was really always a big event -- the Uprising was a big -- it's etched in my mind, you know? I always knew when April nineteenth came that this was the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And I never forgot it; even at an early age, I knew this already. And when we came here, we would 71:00attend annual commemorations -- I went with my father -- commemorating the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And it was a very significant -- of course it was taught in the Yiddish school, as well. We always remembered this as a symbol of resistance to the Nazis. So, this was like a very significant part of my education, is that Jews in World War II were not just docile victims. That they -- and our songs that we learned and the history that we learned, we learned all about the uprisings in different ghettos: the Vilna Ghetto, the Warsaw Ghetto, the songs that came out of them. And the hymn that became the hymn of Jewish 72:00resistance, "Zog nit keyn mol [Never say]," which was sung at every commemoration -- and actually, it was sung at different occasions -- to start a concert, even. It was almost like a national anthem that -- this song of resistance that was written by Hirsh Glik from the Vilna Ghetto as a song of, you know, never say that this is the end of the road, that we are here, we will return with a song of defiance. So, we knew all of the characters that were central in the Warsaw Ghetto: the guy who led the organization, the defense organization, Anielewicz, and Yitzhak Wittenberg from the Vilna Ghetto, and we sang songs about it. So, we were steeped in the Jewish resistance during World 73:00War II. And this was -- I thought we were way ahead of -- later on, nobody -- most Jews in this country never really -- really were into that. They didn't know it. And it wasn't till later when we have all the visuals that are coming out and testimonials in recent years that people are first aware that there was such a thing as a resistance -- and, you know, there was partisans in the forest and -- but all those songs were part of our education. So, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was pretty central. Especially to my father -- I mean, of course, he was from Warsaw. So, this was something that was a rich part of our history. And it's just something that you never forget.

LY:Where did you go to for the annual commemorations of the Uprising?

DK:I think they were in City Center -- it was in a big hall in New York City. I'm pretty sure it was City Center or one of those, which was a big -- and they were an annual event. I still think there is an organization that does annual -- there was maybe more than one organization that had (UNCLEAR), but I think there was one central one that always had an annual commemoration. But I remember attending those with my father, just as I remember going to his choral concerts. They were, like -- it was a big deal. So, they were quite central.

LY:Do you recall, having come through Argentina, when Eichmann was captured?

DK:Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I followed that very, very closely. I was always -- I'm a 75:00big history buff anyway, but in addition -- more than that, Holocaust issues always were a central part of my interests, so I followed that very closely. And I knew that Argentina had hidden a lot of Nazis. And this was the contradiction in Argentina: here there were, a huge number of Jews, and right among them -- well, not necessarily the same neighborhoods, but among them in the country were these Nazis that were brought over. And I knew the history. A lot of them were brought over with the assistance of the Catholic Church, from Europe, and other organizations. And then, they had the cooperation of guys like Juan Perón, who 76:00was a dictator in the fascist sense. You know, he was a so-called man of the people, but however, he had very strong fascist tendencies -- and was sympathetic. And so, I had a great deal of interest in -- and, of course, satisfaction in -- that it happened. But I knew very well that a lot of Nazis had escaped justice. There's no doubt in -- it's not my opinion, but it's -- both in Brazil and in Argentina and in some other South American countries. So, this was something that I followed very closely. And in later years, I -- I'm a kind of electronic geek in many ways, so I've burned a lot of DVDs of Holocaust-related programs that have been on PBS and on some other stations, 77:00cable stations, history channels, and that kind of stuff, and I put them in the DVD form. And in fact, I've lent them to one of my cousins who lives here who teaches Jewish Holocaust history, and he's used them in his classes. So, they've come to use. I got involved in trying to document, but there's been so many that I kind of -- I came to a grinding halt very recently, because this -- the stories -- even though -- there are still survivors left that are retelling their experiences, but for a while, I was very intensely, for a number of years, building a library which I have (laughs) of DVDs of their testimony. 'Cause I 78:00was always interested in how people survived that event. But of course, the Argentina connection had a very special (laughs) significance. Not a good one, but (laughs) -- but it was just ironic that a haven for so many Jews was also a haven for Nazis at the same time. It's just a completely contradictory thing that's happened down there. But -- anyway. Anything else?

LY:Would you be willing to sing a little of that anthem of resistance?

DK:Well, I just remember the first -- there were a lot of stanzas, but -- "Zog 79:00nit keyn mol" was the anthem. You know, like, (sings) "Zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letstn veg,/ven himlen blayene farshteln bloye teg./Vayl kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho,/s'vet a poyk ton undzer trot: mir zaynen do!/Vayl kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho,/s'vet a poyk ton undzer trot: mir zaynen do!." That was the gist of the first stanza: Never say that skies are leaden; the hour will come when our steps will be heard that we are here. It was an anthem that was ingrained in our mind. And we would sing it very often in Yiddish school when we had events. And it was almost -- we actually literally 80:00stood up as you would for the national anthem, so it was that -- it had that kind of power. And we had other resistance songs that we sang all the time. Others written by the same guy who wrote this -- Hirsh Glik wrote a bunch of them -- about Jewish partisans; there was a ballad of Wittenberg which commemorated the fact that he, as a leader of the Jewish resistance in the Vilna Ghetto, at a certain point gave himself up to prevent the destruction of the ghetto. And he was held up as a hero who gave his life to prevent -- of course, 81:00it didn't help -- I mean, the ghetto was destroyed anyway, eventually -- but these were heroes that stood up and who were memorialized in song. You know, it was like, "The Ballad of Yitzhak Wittenberg." And the other one, by Hirsh Glik, is "Shtil, di nakht iz oysgeshtern [Quiet, night is full of stars]" -- it was like, "A starry night, and do you remember how I gave you a gun to hold in your hand" -- and it memorialized a woman who was a heroine who helped to blow up an ammunition train. So, all these were historical -- songs that were interrelated into real events to show that Jews did not just lie down. And it was very significant stuff.

LY:So, you're talking, really, about language -- the transmission of culture 82:00through language, but more specifically, language as sung --

DK:Um-hm, yeah.

LY:-- to transmit.

DK:Undoubtedly. Song was so potent in transmitting some of this stuff, much better than just retelling the story. First of all, some of the music was stirring to begin with. And to sing it in a chorus, for instance, together. I was always in love with choral singing, because you hear all the voices together. And we would learn harmony, and the guy was a real choral director who taught us. And the sounds were beautiful sounds, but they evoked -- the words were so meaningful when you sang them, and you could feel them when you were singing them. It had much more potency than just saying, Oh, this happened, and 83:00this was a guy who did this, and blah, blah, blah, and all that. Song was much more powerful as a medium for transmitting those occurrences -- transmitting values, actually -- all values. We had songs that were -- had to do with integration -- I mean, early, before, you know -- like, (sings) "Shvartse, vayse, broyne, gele" -- some of the -- it's like, "Red, yellow, brown, white, put them all together" -- like, to the tune of Beethoven's, uh (laughs) --

LY:"Ode to Joy."

DK:-- "Ode to Joy." (sings) "Ale mentshn zayne brider, fun eyn tatn, fun eyn mamen." (sings) "All men are brothers from one mother and from one father." We learned all that, and what did it mean, you know? It meant a lot. And we knew 84:00what those values were: early on, before they became popular, you know? (laughs) So, they were really significant. And this was in the '50s. I mean, this was a time where most people were not thinking about integration or the rights of blacks or whatever. We were thinking in a way that was -- you know, it was cutting-edge (laughs) in many ways. And we had those advantages. I thought it was an advantage, obviously, of knowing, and satisfied that people finally realized that this was an issue. But it was -- just like everything else -- I 85:00mean, everything -- workers' rights were considered outlandish early on, you know? An eight-hour day or whatever, that was, like, revolutionary. And social security was revolutionary and everything. And then later on, Hm, not so bad. I think we need that. You know? (laughs) So, in many ways, even though that whole split between the IWO and the Workmen's Circle was an ideological split that had to do with foreign -- really foreign policy in terms of either supporting the Soviets or not -- in effect, both movements were Jewish movements that taught real, positive values. 'Cause they had the same basis. 'Cause after all, the Workmen's Circle started as a Jewish fraternal organization in the early part of the century, as a socialist-oriented workers' fraternal group that could provide 86:00social, cultural, insurance, other -- burial benefits, all the good things, but they also taught values: that workers should have equal rights, 'cause they came from the same working-class backgrounds, that workers should get paid a decent wage, they should have decent hours. So, the roots are the same. And the instincts and the values are the same. And eventually, they've come together again now, because the other issues are by the wayside now. Nobody remembers those politic-- well, not -- I shouldn't say that. Some people may remember. But those political fights are finished, because it became clear that they shouldn't -- they should have been together all the time, anyway, but that's another issue. In any case, the values still persist. They persist in Workmen's Circle 87:00schools, I'm sure, and in the organization, and in "The Forward" paper that takes approaches that are for social justice, that are for equal rights. So, the same values are there, and they're Jewish values. So, in effect, we weren't that much different. But those other nasty political fights are gone. Thank God. (laughs)

LY:As we come to a close, I have a light question and a not-as-light question. On a lighter note, are there any particular Jewish -- Yiddish phrases that are favorites you want to make sure we --

DK:(sighs) Phrases?

LY:Phrases, words -- you shared a lot of songs that are all important.

DK:Well, periodically, I come out with something that I remember out of my past. I don't really have a favorite, really. The expressions are -- sometimes can only be said in Yiddish sometimes. Some of them are negative expressions, you know, like, "You should only" -- (laughs) --

LY:Go ahead. (laughs)

DK:"You should drop dead" -- "Zolst geharget vern [May you be killed]." I mean, anger could be expressed only in Yiddish in a very strong (laughs) and so there's -- I mean, the expressions are endless, and they're in many ways -- I'm trying to think of favorites. There are no favorites, really. There are certain things that can only be said in Yiddish, and that's one of the losses that we have of, you know, not -- losing sight of the language. Hopefully there's still 89:00enough revival going on to keep it alive. Certainly, there's a place for Yiddish still, in my mind.

LY:What do you think of the Yiddish revival?

DK:Well, I'm always hopeful (laughs) that there will be a section, a small percentage of people that will show interest. I don't think we'll have the full revival that we had in our renaissance period, when -- you know, in the early twentieth century and the middle of the twentieth century, when we had such a thriving -- actually, such a thriving Yiddish culture not only here but in Europe. All the major cities of Europe had a thriving Yiddish culture: whatever it was, Warsaw, Vilna, everywhere -- Bialystok. Every major city. And that was 90:00the big loss of the Holocaust, because that -- it went down the drain. If they had survived and that hadn't happened, who knows what could have happened. But as it is, it was a really wholesale destruction of Jewish culture in one fell swoop. And in this country, our integration into the society has been so swift over the years that the interest has obviously waned, to the point where now scholars are the ones that are more interested than others. But there are young people's organizations that I know about that are interested in Yiddish. They're small, of course. And I know about people in Israel, as well, that are trying to 91:00engender some interest there. So, there is some interest there. There may be a revival. Of course, my biggest hope is that Israel would one day recognize this, but I don't think there's a strong hope of that. I don't have great -- so I would love to see a renaissance again -- a strong revival -- but I think it'll be a small revival. (laughs)

LY:Do you want to close with any advice for future generations?

DK:Advice? (laughs) Well, I'm not a great one for advice. I really think there is a potency to what parents can do for their children in terms of values, in terms of how they live. And when your children see you involved in a particular 92:00cause, that's absorbed by your children, I think. You have to set examples by doing. And that's the only advice: you have to do. And that's how I learned from my father. I knew that he participated in demonstrations for a variety of causes. He was an active guy. And hopefully, I did this with my kids. They knew that I went to peace marches, they knew that I went to -- you know, civil rights causes, and they knew what I believed in pretty much. And I think it gets communicated that way: you do and you show. And that's the best you can do, you know? There are some people who will not absorb it, but that's the best -- that's how you translate values. By saying it, it's not enough. (laughs) I mean, 93:00talking about it -- and of course it's a function of how you talk at home and what you discuss and -- obviously -- you know, that old adage from "South Pacific," "You've got to be taught at home." So, if you're taught a certain way, you will learn -- most people will -- that this is the right thing to do. And hopefully, the children will learn that there are such a thing as Jewish values, that you don't have to be a religious Jew to have Jewish values. You can be a secular Jew, as I consider myself, and have strong Jewish values. And they're there: they're part of our history, they're part of our culture, and they're just as legitimate as religious Jews can transmit. And there are plenty of 94:00values there, too. But we're part of the whole rainbow of Jewish thought. And I've gone to a lot of different synagogues, and even though I don't attend regularly, for bar mitzvahs and other events, and I could see the whole spectrum, from Reconstructionist to Reform to Orthodox to -- whatever -- Conservative, and everybody's got their own take, but it's -- there's a strong tie there of values. And it should include secular Jews as well.

LY:Thank you so much. This has been an extraordinary interview. On behalf of the Yiddish Book Center, I want to thank you for sharing so many stories --

DK:Oh, you're very welcome.

LY:-- and songs. And personally, it's been just wonderful. Thank you so much.

DK:You're very welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]