BERTRAM BANDMAN ORAL HISTORY

ALISON POSNER:This is Alison Posner, and today is February 25th, 2013. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Bert Bandman, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Bert, do I have your permission to record this interview?

BERTRAM BANDMAN:Yes.

AP:Great, thank you. All right, so I see that you were born in Shanghai. Can you tell me a little bit about your family background and how your family came to live in Shanghai?

BB:Yes. My family started in Hamburg, Germany in 1927. My father proposed and they got married and then they went on the Trans-Siberian Railroad, all across 1:00Russia to -- to Manchuria, and then down -- down the coast to Shanghai, where my grandfather had sent my father to start a business in an -- export textiles. And so, my father, Albert Bandmann, with two Ns, came there, and became, incidentally -- not so incidentally -- the secretary of the Jewish Recreation Club during the war. But before that -- lot of events occurred.

AP:How did your grandfather end up in Shanghai?

BB:Oh, he left Germany and then went to Holland for a year, because he feared that Hitler or the Nazis would get him and destroy his business -- already, in 2:001927. My grandfather, I think, was quite far-sighted, but not as far-sighted as some of my friends at Applewood, who left for the USA -- that was the country to come to. Shanghai only prolonged the misery, because the Japanese were not exactly friendly fellows.

AP:What was it like to -- to grow up Jewish in Shanghai?

BB:I went to a British public school, which is really private school, and there they -- I had to wear short pants and behave like a Britisher, because I may as well explain: the extraterritoriality rules of Shanghai at the time, 1930s, were that foreign countries actually owned parts of Shanghai, due to the generosity 3:00of Chiang Kai-shek, the leader of China -- being ironic when I say generosity. But he apparently didn't seem to know better, because that really gave the communists an advantage when -- in the propaganda terms. So, Shanghai was divided into five or eight different sections: US, British, German, French, Danish, Belgian. And so, I happened to live in the British section, and we had to follow the rules of the British section, which included the rule that if a white person killed a Chinese person, who was usually a rickshaw coolie or anyone else, that would be a severe sentence, whereas if a Chinese person killed a white person, that would be a death sentence -- promulgated by the community, 4:00in which that happened.

AP:Very interesting. So, can you tell me a little bit about your schoolmates and your teachers who taught in the school?

BB:Yes, I remember Mr. Tingle, my swimming teacher, 'cause I also had to go for boxing. And I hated that, 'cause I got beat every time. You can see I'm a little shorter than most people, and not very flexible in that way. So, I didn't like that. But the British curriculum was quite good. We learned subjects way ahead of time, and that was pretty good. However, one incident occurred where a British -- one of the boys -- we all had uniforms. One of the boys took my cap, stole my cap or took it and ran, and he ran into a car, and the car ran over 5:00him. And this -- probably show you what a bad character I have, actually, underneath it all, 'cause I said, "Please, I want my hat back." (laughs) I didn't care about him, and I feel very badly about that. To this day, I have guilt feelings about that. I mean, my hat wasn't worth that much, but I did it.

AP:Well, we all do things when we're kids that we're not necessarily proud of. (laughs)

BB:Yeah. Well, I was about five or six.

AP:Did you have siblings?

BB:No, unfortunately, I didn't.

AP:(UNCLEAR)

BB:It's a serious loss, which explains my later life, when I was eleven.

AP:What do you mean by that, your -- explains your life?

BB:Oh, when we went to the Philippines -- but I'm jumping -- I -- my mother took me to an American family, and that's how I got my present accent. Otherwise, I would have come here with a German accent, 'cause people's accents are formed before the age of eleven or twelve, I think. Seven, maybe.

AP:Are there any other stories that you would like to tell from the British school? Or we can move on to talking about the Philippines?

BB:Well, I'd like to tell the story about how the Japanese bombed Shanghai in 1937. And I was on a small gunboat, trying to escape, 'cause my mother and father didn't get along. And my mother wanted to go either to Japan or the Philippines. Not the US. My mother took me, you know, on a small gunboat, which was headed for a German ship, of all things, called "[Ignizinow?]" and the -- S.S. [Ignizinow?] -- I don't know if you got that yet. But this is a very large German cruiser ship. And -- my -- on the gunboat, the Japanese ra-- poured guns 7:00or bullets down on this ship and killed one of the Chinese people who was manning the ship. And so, I saw my first Chinese -- my first human being dead at the age of seven. And the bullets that were flying were not exactly pleasant at age seven. That was my first terrible war experience. And I don't know how our little ship escaped from being sunk, but then we got onto the big ship. And it looked very good, but then we went to Hong Kong and by -- that's a three-day trip. Nice. Oh, we went to Japan on the way, and my mother asked me -- my mother's name was Edith. She asked me, "How do you like the Japanese?" And I 8:00said, "I don't like them," at age seven, according to my mother. So, my mother decided to go to the Philippines. I really think she already decided to go to the Philippines, but she asked me. So, we spent one day in Kobe, and it was quite -- it was quite an interesting site, even though one day -- 'cause what I saw was a lot of houses by the Japanese, all made of paper, which meant to me that they could easily be bombed.

AP:When you say paper, can you describe that more? Like, what kind of paper?

BB:A heavy paper, but not even wood. I was just surprised. That's something that stuck with me at age seven.

AP:Yeah.

BB:Yeah. I was probably wrong. The -- yeah, and I can't answer your question 9:00very intelligently. But they seemed to go up fast, and I think the same happened in Tokyo when ten, fifteen years later, they did bomb the US So, anyway, then we went to Hong Kong, and I thought all was quiet on the way to Manila, and we had a storm. A typhoon, they call it. One of the worst typhoons in Asian history. And the German ship, called the "Igniznow" -- my parent-- my grandparents were already on the ship, but they were on a -- upper deck. And my mother and I were on a lower deck, cheaper. And we had to -- at four a.m., we had to wear life belts. And we were expected to have to go overboard in lifeboats. But the German captain, I'm told, was very smart. An Italian ship happened to hit the back of 10:00the ship he was on, and he -- he somehow got the anchor of that ship and was able to stay relatively stable and not sink. But the Italian ship did sink after it hit us. I didn't identify with those people. But anyway -- but it was an adventure to me. I was up there. Four o'clock, the captain came with a gun, ready to shoot anybody who wouldn't take his orders, and we were all ready to go overboard, and -- but my grandparents were upstairs and never heard a word, because the captain didn't want to bother the upstairs people yet. So, we 11:00survived that storm and spent two days getting the ship repaired. And then, we went to Manila, and then I can --

AP:Wow, that's amazing. So, it was in Manila that you went to the Maryknoll Convent?

BB:Oh, in Manila, I think I went to La Salle School. But my mother thought I had tuberculosis, and she -- in the meantime, she found a boyfriend, and I think she wanted to get rid of me. So, she took me to Baguio on the pretext that I had tuberculosis, which turned out not to be true. What turned out to be true was that I had tonsillitis, which my mother didn't want to take out. I don't know why. But she said God intended everyone to have all of his -- his or her organs 12:00and -- I thought that was fishy.

AP:You mentioned before that your mother wasn't particularly religious.

BB:That's right.

AP:Yeah, yeah.

BB:Oh, but -- yeah, that's a -- inconsistency, yeah.

AP:Right.

BB:So, anyway, my mother decided that I should go to Baguio for my health. And I did go. I mean, she sent me there, to a family, an American family, called the Rheems. So, I played with them. But I had deep anguish, because I was separated from my mother, about whom I felt very close at the time. And it was a jarring experience for me, also, to learn that within six months or a year, my mother became pregnant from a love she had from her friend, whose name was Al Schick, 13:00whatever it's worth. And he happened to be consulate general of the -- Chile to the Philippines. He also was a very prominent guerilla leader during the next four-year phase.

AP:Did you have a relationship with the child? Your half-sibling?

BB:Oh, the child was dead born. It didn't make it.

AP:Oh.

BB:Or -- or my mother had an abortion, I'm sorry. I didn't say that correctly. My mother told me many years later. But I saw her, because she recuperated in Baguio, and that's the one time I saw her frequently. But I wasn't told why until many years later. Well, that's not relevant to the Yiddish Book Cen--

AP:But, no, these are -- they're very interesting stories. Can you talk a little bit more about your relationship with your mother? So, you weren't very close 14:00with her while you were living with the Rheems, is that right?

BB:Yeah. My mother would come every two weeks --

AP:Oh, okay.

BB:-- and see me for a day. Saturday, Sunday. She'd have a ride with somebody and see me. So, that happened every two weeks.

AP:And what kind of things would you do with the American family or with your mother?

BB:Well, this was a two-story house that the American family lived in. And they would -- they had a very wholesome way of life. We ate three square meals. Carrots. Good stuff. Carrot-- vegetables. Kids nowadays don't like carrots or vegetables, but I had to eat them. But we had -- the Rheems had two servants, as -- customary in the Philippines to have a lot of servants, because they're -- and I hate to say it, but they're cheap. They cost, at that time, ten dollars a 15:00month, plus room and board. And that's really outrageous, if the -- but we had two servants who prepared the meals, and that's how I lived in Baguio, for five years.

AP:Did you stay in touch with the Rheems after you left?

BB:It's a good question. No. I did meet them once at Santo Tomas. But I didn't -- the separation of another five years -- plus, I was really eager to come to the US. I -- I helped engineer the process of my coming to the US, as an immigrant.

AP:Can you explain that process?

BB:Yes. My mother introduced me -- my mother did some very wonderful things for 16:00me. She introduced me to an American who liked me -- not to adopt me, but to help me. I don't know why. I mean, some people in the world are like that. They -- they just -- outstandingly wonderful people. Well, he happened to be interested in my -- fulfilling my goals. And then, I was seventeen or -- no, six-- fifteen. And his name was Ward W. Ward. Very strange name. And he came from Louisiana. And he told me, when -- he was a captain. He told me, when he met me, that he would -- he wanted to help me get into the US. And, oh, wonderful, 'cause I didn't have much chance. Only a hundred Chinese are allowed a year, and there was no German Jewish quota at the time. It was impossible. So, 17:00I was very grateful -- any help I could get. And I worked for an officers' club, because after the war -- I mean, after the American liberation, I had no clothes except what I had on my back. And so, I wore American army clothes, which really wasn't quite appropriate. But I got a job in the officers' club, which is listed on the documents that I gave you. And -- sorry, I lost my --

AP:I think you were -- you were talking about your friend who helped you --

BB:Oh, Ward W. Ward.

AP:Yes.

BB:Fantastic. How can I ever forget. I really didn't believe him, but he told 18:00me, "I'm going to get in touch with my lawyer." I still didn't believe him. But all of a sudden, I got a telegram from Senator Overton saying, "I'm working on a quota system for you, and I think I've got some good news."

AP:Can I ask, why were you so eager to come to the United States?

BB:Because I had just survived World War II, that Jap-- Shanghai, China, Hong Kong. Horrible experiences. I didn't like Baguio, because even though I related somewhat to the Rheems -- I was dressed up as a cowboy and I felt for-- like a foreigner. But I did learn how to -- to assimilate with the American family. But 19:00I was very eager to -- to not go to Australia, which is another candidate place for me.

AP:When you say a candidate place, is that as a German Jew or --

BB:Yes.

AP:Okay.

BB:German -- my father ended up in Australia, from China, because he was more or less invited to leave Shanghai by the communists. But they were very nice about it. But they said, "There's no business for you. Go away." (laughs)

AP:Did you and your family face a lot of discrimination as Jews?

BB:Well, that's a really profound question, because the Japanese, fortunately, were not like the Germans. They didn't incarcerate us. They just didn't like most of the whites, except for the Germans. But they didn't really distinguish 20:00German Jews from Germans, by and large. But I was in a -- internment camp, because I was with the Rheems for one month. And so, I -- Camp John Hay. I faced the possibility -- I was on the floor. We slept on the floor. We had two meals. I faced the possibility that I would be treated like -- enemy aliens. And I was, for a month. And there were very strict rules the Japanese applied. And life was not pleasant. But my mother, in Manila, worked to get me out of that camp.

AP:Was this a camp for children?

BB:It was a camp for enemy aliens, because I was with the American family, the Rheems, I was incarcerated with them. And -- on Christmas Day. And we were told 21:00by the Japanese guard that came up to the Rheems' house, "Take whatever belongings you expect to live with." But that's all. "On your back. You may take nothing else." And so, whatever toys I had -- no. I just had whatever I could wear on my back. And two meals a day. And the meals got worse and -- by the day.

AP:What kind of things were they feeding you?

BB:At first, they fed us peppers. Green peppers with hamburger. (laughs) So, that was the first day. I remember it. But after that, it was dried fish and a little rice. And a lot of people got thinner. In fact, one of the reasons I am fairly thin is that I never gained too much weight, which is a sad thing about 22:00this country. But that's something else.

AP:So, did you have any idea of what was going on during the war? Did you understand the politics?

BB:Oh, yes. Somebody -- I -- the Filipinos ran their own government during the Japanese regime. And I don't remember the name of one of the Japan-- Filipino presidents, but -- Laurel. Jose P. Laurel ran for president, said he would collaborate with the Japanese, and it was called the Japanese Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere. Big name. It meant Asia for the Asians and we don't like whites -- I think the implicit message. So, that's what I -- that's -- sorry, 23:00I'm having another one of those terrible moments.

AP:Don't worry.

BB:But what was your question?

AP:So, I was curious if you were aware of the political situation --

BB:Oh, yes.

AP:-- and understood --

BB:Oh, I'm sorry. Jose P. Laurel was for the Japanese. And the rest of us regarded him as anti-American. And he was tried after the war or something. And I don't know exactly -- it was not nice, how he was treated. But, on the other hand, it led me to my one philosophical -- early philosophical interest, namely collaborationism. What makes a person a collaborator? And later on, I learned about the French collaborationists and World War II collaborationists and --

AP:Can -- can you explain a little more where this -- this philosophical idea came from?

BB:Oh, the actual -- seeing Jose P. Laurel collaborating with the Japanese and other Japanese, and the temptation -- as a matter of fact, there were several tempting offers from -- even for me. I was invited -- I met a philosophy professor, of all things -- very strange. It's like it was all preordained, but it really wasn't. It was an accident. Small country. And I met this -- his name was -- he's a -- he was a priest. His name was Mara. And he said, "The German Club would like it if you could send ten pounds of sugar to -- to -- to the 25:00German Club." But I said, "But there's a Nazi flag, and that's not right." And he said, "Yeah, but you get -- you get some money." And I thought about it and I did it, because I thought giving sugar to the Germans wasn't really as bad. But it was collaboration. And had I been truer to what I should have been, I never -- "Forget the money." That's what I should have said. That was far worse than doing the hat thing with that little boy. That was a real act of betrayal. I mean, the Nazi flag. I can see it, and it's -- that's what collaborationism means.

AP:Can you describe a little more of your relationship with the priest, as well?

BB:Oh, yes. He noticed that I went to a Maryknoll Convent in Baguio, and I was asked to say the "Hail Mary" fifty times. And I told the sister -- I thought her name was Fidelius -- if she's not deaf, why wouldn't she hear us the first time? And I was about seven years old. And this Father Mara heard about it and he said, "I think you should study philosophy," and --

AP:That's wonderful. How did you feel as a young Jewish boy at a Christian convent?

BB:Terrible. But my mother, I think, was too cheap -- I mean, I don't like that word, but she was trying to save money. And the Rheem family went to Brent School, which was much more liberal. And the Maryknoll School was for those of 27:00us who couldn't afford the more expensive school.

AP:Were you treated differently because you were Jewish?

BB:By the Rheems?

AP:Or by the school.

BB:Well, I think the sisters and the priests were quite nice to me. They -- they saw me as a stranger. And I eventually didn't have to participate in the prayers. But I really thought that was a very terrible -- and that's another form of collaboration, to have to say those things when I really didn't mean them at all. But I did get my ear pulled for that, and I stood for principle. But I didn't stand for principle when it came to that German Club. Well, anyway, I was very close to Al Schick, my mother's boyfriend, who -- they ended up 28:00married at the end of the war. And Al Schick was practically a father figure for me. He was very impressive. He was tall, he was Chilean ambassador to the Philippines. He was a Harvard graduate. He was very pleasant to me. And he -- he was a guerilla leader, and I knew that. And so, I once helped him because he ran into the street with -- without his armband. And if you had no armband, as a Chilean, you could get locked up. So, I ran after him in my pajamas one morning and gave him his armband. And that's the kind of thing, relationship we did have. Plus, after the war, he knew I wanted to go to the US, and he supported 29:00me. Not financially. He was very stingy. But supported me. He thought it was a good idea.

AP:Did you know that you wanted to -- what you wanted to study when you came to the US?

BB:I wanted to first finish high school, because I never did. And then, go to college and see what that was. But yes, this old Maryknoll -- this sister thing was in my brain. And when I did go to Columbia, I was very enthusiastic with -- about philosophy.

AP:So, can you tell me what it was first like to come to the United States, having grown up in Asia, all over Asia?

BB:Sure. I was very -- first of all, I found that the S.S. [Megs?] was a ship that was being rearranged so that it could take civilian passengers. It was a 30:00warship during the war, and -- but it was already 1946. It was -- it was making trips back and forth. So, I managed to find out that it was going September '46, and I wanted to go there. And so, I -- my mother booked for me, but I used the money I earned as a civilian employee to -- to pay my passage. And -- well, that boat ride was one of the nicest boat rides I ever had, because on my way -- I was going to Shanghai to see my father. But on the road -- I didn't tell you, 31:00but my grandfather was shot in the Battle of Manila, which was one of the worst ever. Three hundred thousand people, I think, died. One of the worst battles ever in World War II. I think there was one Polish city that was more destroyed. But Manila was a very badly destroyed city. So, my grandfather was shot, and my grandmother happened to be a friend of Mrs. MacArthur, for reasons that I don't really know. But my grandmother got Mrs. MacArthur to come and give my grandfather, who was wounded -- badly wounded in the stomach -- a little extra help. I think that wasn't quite right, either, because, after all, soldiers -- I saw the soldiers, because I worked in the hospital at that time as a KP.

AP:What's a KP?

BB:Kitchen police. I'm sor-- it's really washing dishes. (laughs) They sometimes glorify terms. But I washed dishes. That's how I got a job. Washing dishes. And anyway, I was in the same hospital as my grandfather, who was badly wounded, survived for about a month, and then died. But in the meantime, Mrs. MacArthur was trying to get some help for him. And a doctor would go by and say, "Oh, let me try this." But he was -- he would take attention away from another wounded soldier. So, my grandfather resigned. He didn't take any of his pills, and that's how he probably died. But my grandmother -- I found on my way to Shanghai 33:00and the US, on the Megs. I found my grandmother a stowaway. How she got into the boat -- (laughs) she wanted to see my uncle in Shanghai. So, that's as far as she wanted to go. But that's -- I don't know why she couldn't book a passage. (laughter) But it -- it wasn't her temperament. But she was very close to my grandfather when he died. It was terrible. So, she wanted -- the one left person -- well, my mother and my uncle were left over. And my uncle was in Shanghai. My uncle was very smart. He learned Chinese during the war, and he exchanged English lessons with the Chinese, and he would learn Chinese. So, he learned Chinese, and people keep asking me, "Well, did you ever learn any Chi--" No, I 34:00didn't, 'cause I was insulated and -- and I wasn't as smart as my uncle.

AP:So, what was it like to be back in Shanghai after being in the Philippines?

BB:Oh, I felt like a victorious son who came back to claim his inheritance from my father. In fact, I asked my father -- "I need money to go to this prep school." And he gave it to me, and we slept together in one bed, overnight, arguing most of the night.

AP:What were you arguing about?

BB:About the money. (laughs) About the prep school. About what I was going to do. I told him, "I want to study philosophy." He said to me, and he wrote me many times, "I can buy a hundred professors. You should be in business." And we 35:00had a -- ongoing argument. Well, during the time that I was in the Philippines, my father saw me exactly two days. So, he, yeah, somehow wasn't very close to me. I wish he was, because I got to be close to him, or feel close. I did feel close. But -- and he supported me throughout my early days, until I met Elsie, my wife. And when I told my father and mother that I was getting married, they -- my father said, "No more money for you. If you can get married, you're on your own." (laughs)

AP:So, when you went to America, your parents were still both in Asia.

BB:My father was in Shanghai.

AP:Okay.

BB:He had remarried and my mother had remarried. And, yeah, my mother was in the 36:00Philippines, and my uncle came to Manila and started a business.

AP:So, you went by yourself to the United States.

BB:Oh, no, actually my mother went with me. She -- I was sixteen. She dropped me off at the Wards in New Orleans, and they took care of me five days a week, but --

AP:Who were the Wards?

BB:The -- Ward W. Ward.

AP:Oh, the Wards, right.

BB:He's the one who got me in, because I didn't tell you that the telegram from Senator Overton depended upon Ward, and it was Ward who put up his whole house to get me -- it was very complicated. Or at least, I think it was complicated. He had to show that he was willing to give up his house if I didn't turn out okay. If I was a criminal. That's -- that was the law in Louisiana at the time. 37:00So, I had to appear before some court or other. But Ward W. Ward had enormous faith in me. There are people like that --

AP:Why do you think he had such faith in you?

BB:I think he had faith in my mother, also. He liked white people, or at least he liked some of them. We spoke English, things like that.

AP:What was it like to be in an English-speaking country?

BB:Oh, wonderful. I mean, okay, I left Shanghai on the "Megs," came to San Francisco, and I went under this Golden Gate Bridge, and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I'll always remember it. Somebody at Applewood has a picture of the "Megs" when it was a wartime ship. And I always enjoy 38:00walking by that, to see the ship I was on.

AP:So, what were your first American experiences like?

BB:Oh, San Francisco. Nice to see -- I saw a relative. His name was -- I don't -- Nort, I think. I had an envelope about him. My mother and I met him, and I remember that in San Francisco, he -- he said to my mother, "I want to talk to you privately." So, they made me stay outside the room while he talked to my mother. I don't know what about. Maybe -- but I felt terrible humiliation to be 39:00kept away from what could have been my future being discussed. So, I do have a couple relatives in the US. In fact, I had a "Boston Globe" music critic -- and I met him a couple times, and we went to St. Louis once and I saw some other relatives. But that's where I should have been instead of the Philippines and China. That's very sad.

AP:So, what was it like being in a -- an American high school and with American kids? Was it an adjustment?

BB:Oh, well, I went to Holy Cross High School. Again, the Catholic school is cheaper than the -- the other school. But my father -- I think my mother had to pay my school bills. I went -- Holy Cross High School. I enjoyed that for a 40:00year. But my father was very upset, because he didn't care for Catholic schools. Number two, he didn't care for ed-- that type of education. He wanted me up north, prep school. So, I first started with Phillips Andover, but I didn't -- I didn't have the standards to meet it. So, I had to go to another school, and I ended up in Hebron Academy, which was a school that I could -- could work with, and that's how I graduated.

AP:And that was in Maine.

BB:That's in Maine, yeah.

AP:So, you really have been all across the Eastern Seaboard.

BB:Yeah.

AP:What was your favorite place to live?

BB:Well, my favorite time of life was with Elsie, my wife, and it still is. Even I like Applewood because Elsie makes it nice. She --

AP:So, where did you meet Elsie?

BB:I met her in the International House. Sorry to add this, but I had some nice German Jewish friends in New York City who helped me go to General -- School of General Studies, Columbia. And that's where I went on. And I met -- I lived in the International House, which is a little north of Columbia, and north of Riverside Church. I don't know if you know that area. But the International House is a wonderful place to -- to meet all kinds of people. And I met some great singers, including one of the great singers of the Metropolitan. And she was very obnoxious at the time, but -- but she was working her way -- wonderful black singer, but I forgot her name. But -- but I lived in the International House. I met some painters and I met Elsie. And so, we went on dates and then -- 42:00during the McCarthy era hearings, we -- and we met Mrs. Roosevelt, by the way. Was very -- spectacular event.

AP:How did you meet Mrs. Roosevelt?

BB:She was a trustee of the International House. She came every month to give a little pep talk and support -- support international students. And she was very articulate and tremendous, and we'd come and shake her hand, and she was dressed in various old clothes, and very modest. But what she said was very powerful.

AP:So, up until this point in your life, did you -- were you involved in Jewish organizations or any kind of Jewish life?

BB:Yeah. I was trying to think about that question. Oh, yes, when my mother and 43:00I first came to Manila, we depended on the Jewish community to help us find a home. That was for the first two, three months. And without the Jewish community, we would have been really badly off. That's how much it meant. It meant a great deal. And, as I may have mentioned, my father became -- but that was far away from me -- he became president of the Jewish Recreation Club. And he was much more Jewish than my mother.

AP:In what ways?

BB:He was dedicated to helping Jews around the world through this recreation club and through other ways. And he did so in Australia, also. He -- very, very devoted to Jewish causes.

AP:Did your parents lose relatives in the war?

BB:Yes. Yeah, in -- either Auschwitz or one of those camps, we lost some relatives. But -- but, yes, I wondered if I really was very relevant to the Jewish -- to the Yiddish Book Center, since -- that's the one contact I do remember. When we left Shanghai, there was a concern -- I think they even gave us a contribution so that we could survive.

AP:What is a contribution?

BB:Maybe two hundred dollars or something in the form of support. My father, really, was very close to Jewish concerns. My mother tended to be alienated. She was afraid the Japanese would kill me because I was a boy. I don't know why, but --

AP:But not because you were Jewish or --

BB:Yes. She -- some of the Japanese commanders were anti-Jewish. But most of the Japanese culture, if anything, applauded Jewish aplomb and wisdom. And -- and 46:00that's why my mother asked me, "Do you want to go to Kobe or Manila?" I'm glad I said Manila, but my mother was going to Manila anyway.

AP:So, to go back to the United States --

BB:Yeah.

AP:-- what kind of philosophy did you study at Columbia?

BB:Oh, Western philosophy. I wasn't interested -- and this is probably a sad note, but I wasn't interested in -- I wasn't really interested in Jewish philosophy. I was -- I wasn't interested in Asian philosophy, including Buddhism, Hinduism, the whole -- I was interested in analytic philosophy, yeah. English/American philosophy. I really liked the British -- I met Russell as a -- undergraduate student, and I helped him a little bit. Very little, but it -- I 47:00met him. Great giant in my life. And I wish I had met John Dewey, who I like very much. I read him every week. I go to Smith for a club. And I enjoy --

AP:What is it about the British philosophers that attracts you?

BB:Well, Isaiah Berlin, Russell, they -- they present the problems of philosophy in a way that's not so -- not so difficult to understand, unlike the French and the Russians and the Europeans and Germans. They -- they don't speak in clear sentence structure, whereas the British do -- it's called common sense philosophy, but it really isn't common sense. But it's a little bit closer to 48:00what one can relate to, and I -- but I found that easier.

AP:Do you feel that your experience in childhood influenced, you know, your later studies, what you were interested in studying?

BB:Yes. It really dates back to some -- some tutors I had in Manila. Even though I didn't have regular schooling, I did have some tutors who encouraged me to study -- and they told me about the geopolitical problems in the world -- that the Japanese really weren't at fault. I didn't believe that, but they told me that the Americans, British were really at fault. And that was the presentation by them, but I really didn't find that very convincing. But I think it 49:00influenced my desire to study philosophy.

AP:Where did you do your PhD work?

BB:Columbia.

AP:Oh, Columbia. And what did you write your dissertation on?

BB:The logic of educational questions.

AP:Can you talk a little bit about that?

BB:Well, I thought that the philosophy of education was very chaotic. And so, I looked into that, and I found that it was -- it went off the route that Columbia -- that philosophers were going on, namely looking for a standard for judging 50:00what's true or false, right or wrong, justifiable or unjustifiable. And the -- the schools of philosophy, of education, were in a dire -- dire distance from -- from any meaningful discourse. So, that's what I wrote my book on -- thesis on, it became published.

AP:And then, where did you end up teaching?

BB:Long Island University, Brooklyn campus.

AP:And how did you like teaching there?

BB:Well, I enjoyed -- I taught in a number of places, but I enjoyed teaching. I mean, was a nice -- I particularly enjoyed philosophy of religion, which 51:00probably dates me back or gives me a chance to go back to the days when I grew up in the Philippines, and even China. And I used to share some of the notes I'm sharing with you with some of my students. So, I really enjoyed -- especially small classes of six or eight. And we would discuss philosophical questions, because I thought behind all these other questions about power politics are really fundamental tearing -- conflicts between -- between people that don't get helped by a lack of discourse. So, I always -- I found that schooling was 52:00terrific, and philosophy was at the center of the schooling. But I noticed, in New York City, philosophy's not as welcome as it is out here. I think philosophy is more -- much more welcome here. It's like the ballast or the cement of ideas, and it's tolerated here. But in New York City, I noticed even in the philosophy departments, we always had to be defensive against the English department, the other departments. Some departments were actually trying to take over philosophy. Speech department, for example, or some other department. And there was a war of departments instead of the real intrinsic struggle of ideas which I enjoyed so much at times, and even, like, at LIU, so --

AP:Why -- why do you think there was such a struggle between the departments or --

BB:Because it's a Darwinian struggle for survival, or -- and maybe Freud said it. Struggle -- yeah, Darwinian. There's not enough to go around. I learned a great deal from Hume, that we have to recognize -- Humeian -- there has to be enough to go around. That's the problem with the economy today. And --

AP:So, when did you retire?

BB:Uh, 2003.

AP:And what have you been doing since then?

BB:I write a lot in little notebooks. I have my 517th notebook, and -- even though -- by the way, I published a lot of books, with kosher -- sorry, I shouldn't use the word kosher.

AP:You can use kosher here at the Book Center.

BB:Okay.

AP:Yeah. (laughs)

BB:Oh, well, I've published with the standards, including, with Elsie, health care ethics, for example. We did quite well. We -- we did -- I did twelve books, and seven with her and five of --

AP:Wow.

BB:-- alone. And sixty or seventy articles. I forgot.

AP:Can -- can you mention some of the titles of your books?

BB:"The Moral Development of Health Professionals," that's my most recent. The "Children's Rights" is my favorite, because -- yeah. I can see myself in there. Children's rights.

AP:Interesting. What -- what kind of things did you write about in the "Children's Rights" --

BB:Well, I reviewed Dostoevsky. I reviewed some of the great arguments that people like Dostoevsky and other writers had. And I found -- and, by the way, 55:00tomorrow, there's going to be a lecture at Amherst College by a children's rights author. His name is Friedman, who collected a paper of mine that he put into his book, with Hillary Clinton -- Clinton, yeah. Her article is tremendous. Mine is right next door to hers in this big two-volume book called "Children's Rights." So, that came out of that, so --

AP:Do you feel like if such a book had been in existence when you were a child, (laughs) maybe things would have gone differently?

BB:Oh, I hope I'm not trying to appeal for a better childhood, 'cause it's gone. (laughs) That's an interesting question. What happens -- Lady Macbeth said it 56:00very well. "What's done is done." (laughter) But I do -- I'm working on subjunctive conditionals, that's my favorite topic.

AP:Subjunctive conditionals. Is that grammar?

BB:It sounds like grammar --

AP:Sounds like grammar.

BB:-- but it's really "What if this had happened instead?" Another word for it -- for psychologists would be regret. What do I wish I hadn't done? What do I wish I had done differently? Wish I'd married so-and-so instead of so-and-so. What if I had only had one child instead of two? And so on.

AP:What kind of conclusions have you come to?

BB:Oh, that the main problem in philosophy is subjunctive conditionals, and not some of the others. But I haven't worked out the relation between if and then, and I'm still trying to work that out. I'm sorry, I'm not able to produce that 57:00yet. But I'm hoping. In fact, I'm -- we're doing seminars, which are wonderful, at LIR, where we have a chance to pretend to be young again. (laughs)

AP:Well, that's great. I'm glad you're still writing. (laughs)

BB:Yeah, but nobody's publishing. (laughs)

AP:So -- so, you actually have a child of your own.

BB:Yes, our daughter is wonderful.

AP:Yeah.

BB:I forgot to mention that.

AP:Yeah, tell me -- tell me a little bit about your daughter.

BB:Oh, she's fifty-three or so. And she found -- she was happily married, but her husband got cancer, multiple cancers, and died. And that was five years ago, and she -- last year, she found a significant other. And it's like heaven, but she -- I don't believe in heaven. But it's great. I'm so glad, 'cause it's very 58:00rare that one finds somebody who is significant to one person. That's another topic I wish I could -- subtopic. Yeah, the relationship between people. I keep working on it, but I'm not getting far enough on that. But -- but I think subjunctive conditionals are very crucial. Like, if the Japanese had understood that they couldn't possibly win against big power like the US, they might have had better thoughts than to go to war. I think there were a lot of mistakes. I'm sure you don't want me to -- I mean, the atomic bomb didn't have to be dropped, but that's my -- I shouldn't talk about that.

AP:Well, I'm -- I'm curious what -- what do you think is accomplished by thinking about the subjunctive conditionals?

BB:Well, in the case of global warming, if we don't think more about it, we will be doomed, as Santayana said, to repeat the mistakes of the past. And the Earth may not have a chance. That's how serious -- thinking carefully -- and I think that what's going on in Syria is a serious problem that Obama's missing out on. Can't allow a country to kill so and some -- a large percentage of its population without -- impunity, without terrible disaster. And I think what the Japanese are doing to the fish industry or some other industries is not so good, either. And what we're doing in various ways is not so -- there needs to be more 60:00judicious analysis of what's going on.

AP:Have you been involved with politics?

BB:No. My wife is. She calls Washington -- she calls the White House every week, and sh-- (laughs) she berates me because I'm not active enough. I'm not -- I'm not -- my wife is really terrific.

AP:What kind of things does she do?

BB:She calls senator -- the Republican senator, tells him to wise up. And -- and can't have this -- this -- this stuff that's going on, the -- March 1st. It'll be a disaster for our economy. I forgot the word. And --

AP:To return to your daughter, did -- did you raise her with any kind of Jewish life?

BB:I think my -- Elsie, my wife, had more to do with her influence on Judaism than I did. I'm very neglectful. But -- but Elsie -- if you ever meet Elsie, she's much more Jewish, even though she's really Catholic. (laughs)

AP:Do you mean by that that she converted?

BB:She is an ex-Catholic, and she and I had influences on each other, and she doesn't care for the Cath-- she hates the Pope, and she hates the church. And she likes Judaism. She thinks Jews are very special and that I'm ungrateful and un-- too uninvolved to -- I can't be redeemed. I don't know why. It's -- I 62:00almost had guilt feelings about spending your time --

AP:No, it's a pleasure to tape the interview. So, do you have any Jewish traditions in the house?

BB:My father -- my father didn't like -- Christmas tree when we were four -- when I was four or five, and he took a tree and he threw it out of the window because he said, "That's the symbol of Christianity." So, that's a negative. And my mother always tells me that he threw that -- of course, he did make sure it didn't hit anybody on the head. We were on the tenth floor. But my father did 63:00dramatic things like that, which weren't necessarily helpful, like when he told me, "I can buy fifty professors."

AP:And with your own family, with Elsie, your daughter? That -- your Jewish tradition?

BB:Oh, the Jewish tradition -- we're trying to -- to get our grandson to appreciate the Jewish tradition. And he says, "I'm one-fourth Jewish, but that doesn't count too much." But I think that's terrible, and we keep -- even I do, I say, "I think it's very important for you to recognize the great heritage that Jews have given to the world." And we were in Israel, by the way. I mean, didn't 64:00come up, but we spent -- we gave some lectures in Israel, and I'm very fond of the survival of Israel, but I don't really know how it can be done. I mean -- but we have some friends at the -- Applewood -- who support Israel very actively. And --

AP:When were you in Israel?

BB:Oh, '80s, for two, three weeks.

AP:And what kind of things did you do besides going to the -- giving the lectures?

BB:We visited various places. We visited -- we met some people and -- a kibbutz and we -- but I -- while I identified with the Jews, I also saw the sufferings 65:00of the Palestinians, and I thought that was unfair. And I wasn't able to be -- as one side -- Elsie is much more one-sidedly pro-Israel. But I'm not quite as -- I don't know if the two-state solution can really be helpful. I hope it can, but I remember Shanghai, which had four or five states. And it didn't work. So, if Shanghai was a barometer, I -- I think there are a lot of problems when you have a small physical geography that you expect to control -- large segments. I -- I don't know. I --

AP:Do you see any viable future for Israel?

BB:Yes. I like the historian, but I forgot his name, in -- I hope I remember his name. But he's a very great British historian who sees that even a small chance is worth developing. And I think this historian, who I like very much -- it's too bad, I have his book, but I can't remember his name -- to discuss the American Revolution and how America was saved because it -- the odds were against it in America -- that's what this Americ-- this British historian pointed out. And I -- I like his view about what can save Israel. But it won't 67:00be a two-state -- partly because of my understanding of Shanghai, which was a loser. The Chinese communists were able to swoop down -- and I'm not for -- well, I really was somewhat for them, because I remember playing in a park as a six-year-old child -- that said, "No Chinese or dogs allowed," and that sign was put up by the Chiang Kai-shek government. Or it was allowed to be put up by the Chiang Kai-shek government in the extraterritoriality zones that were put up. I think the Chiang Kai-shek government would have been much better off never to have allowed any country to put up a sign like that. But it was the British, I think, who put up the sign: "No Chinese or dogs allowed." And that was very insulting, and Mao Zedong could point to it, and that was one of the ways he won 68:00the whole Chinese people, includ-- by the way, I didn't mention, we used to go on rickshaw coolies -- it's almost time, right?

AP:No, no, no, you have -- you have --

BB:Oh. Rickshaw coolies.

AP:What were the rickshaw coolies?

BB:By the way, that was a big difference between China and the Philippines. The rickshaw coolie was a -- a Chinese coolie who would carry a passenger or two passengers in his rickshaw. And he would have to take it -- take that rickshaw wherever -- usually a white person wanted. And usually, this rickshaw coolie happened to be forty or fifty. But he wasn't expected to run. But I remember my mother saying, "Schneller, schneller!" Faster, faster. She wanted -- and people 69:00aren't made to run for lots -- large distances. And that was a terrible thing that the European, American community did to the Chinese people in the '30s -- make the Chinese become rickshaw coolies. Or, as in the case of women, they had to -- they had bound feet, and that was a form of torture to women, which the white communities ignored. Again, Mao Zedong pointed to all these symptoms as a form of retaliation and overthrow of the white communities. So, the contrast with the Philippines was, in the Philippines, they had horse-drawn vehicles. (laughs) So, that was a huge difference. I noticed that immediately when I got 70:00there. This country is more liberat-- liberal, because there are horses. But, of course, I've since studied animal rights, and I now think doing that to horses is not nice. It's a violation of their rights.

AP:Yes, it seems you're very interested in the rights of various groups, including animals.

BB:Yes.

AP:Children.

BB:Yes. Well, I was -- I wrote a book called the "Rights of Children."

AP:Right.

BB:Right, yeah.

AP:Good, it's fine. I'm curious, did you grow up speaking German with your parents? 'Cause you said you recognized the "schneller" --

BB:Yes.

AP:Yeah.

BB:I spoke German until I left Shanghai, and then I spoke German with my mother until I went to Baguio. And then, I spoke English.

AP:Did you ever learn any Yiddish?

BB:Yes. My father wanted me to study -- to bar mitzvah at thirteen. And I did go, in Manila, for a few months, and I studied to -- for bar mitzvah. But my mother -- and it's my fault. I -- I was lazy. But I did have a -- I don't know what they call them. The cantor -- the cantor and a rabbi taught me for three, four months. And I was scheduled to -- but I -- there were some circumstances that kept me from -- from completing that study, which would have been very 72:00significant for my Jewishness. And I'm terrible for having neglected it.

AP:What language were you taught in by the rabbi and the cantor?

BB:Not Yiddish, but the -- some other -- it must have been -- I don't think it was Yiddish.

AP:Yeah.

BB:Oh.

AP:But they spoke English with you?

BB:Yes, but they also -- I had to (UNCLEAR) I had to learn some --

AP:I'm assuming it was probably Hebrew you were learning.

BB:Yes.

AP:Yeah.

BB:I was learning Hebrew.

AP:Yeah, yeah.

BB:They were very involved.

AP:Yeah. Yeah. So, can you recognize Yiddish words with the German that you know?

BB:Some. Like "shneler, shneler," yeah. (laughs)

AP:Yeah.

BB:But language, I -- I learned a little Spanish, and I had to pass German and Spanish for the test. But I'm not -- I'm not as gifted about that.

AP:So, is there anything else that you would like to say for the interview?

BB:Yes, I still regret that I don't know more Jewishness and that I wasn't more Jewish, and that I didn't give more to this wonderful culture.

AP:Well, there's still time. (laughs)

BB:Oh, yes. Yeah.

AP:Okay, well, great. Well, thank you --

BB:Okay.

AP:-- very much --

BB:Okay.

AP:-- for --

BB:Sure, okay.

AP:-- okay.

[END OF INTERVIEW]