Keywords:academia; education; esoteric literature; Jerzy Woronczak; Jewish culture; Jewish languages; Jewish mysticism; Jewish studies; Kabbalah; structuralism; University of Wroclaw; University of Wrocław
Keywords:1970s; academia; communism; communist regime; cultural archaeology; Isaac Bashevis Singer; Jewish cemeteries; Jewish cemetery; Jewish culture; Jewish history; Jewish studies; Nobel Prize; Polish history; research
Keywords:19th century; education; historian; historical narrative; history; Jewish Polish relations; Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw; Muzeum Historii Żydów Polskich; national narrative; POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews; Polish history; Polish Jewish history; Polish Jewish relations; politics; social relations; Varshah; Varshava; Warsaw, Poland; Warszawa
CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is April 30th, 2013. I'm here
in -- at Wrocław University with Marcin Wodzinski, Professor Marcin Wodzinski.I'm sure I'm pronouncing that horribly.
MARCIN WODZINSKI:That's perfect.
CW:And we will record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler
Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record this?
MW:Yes, of course.
CW:Thank you. So, to start, can you just tell me briefly about your family background?
MW:I'm ethnic Pole, Roman Catholic, both by origin and profession. And my family
came to Lower Silesia, where we are now, in the late 1950s, from central Poland, 1:00from area of Łódz. All Poles living in Silesia today are people who wereeither resettled from eastern territories after the Second World War, or camehere from central and western Poland. This was territory that was German until,as you know, 1945. So all the population of this area is new. I'm native-bornSilesian, and this is my area. This is my landscape. That's where I feel home. Iwas educated here, in Wrocław -- first in Świdnica, which is small town sixtykilometers south of Wrocław. Then I came to study at Wrocław University in1985. And then I stay here since then, with some breaks for -- Beijing,Jerusalem, or other places.
CW: Right. Can you tell me a little about your neighborhood and community
growing up -- the town?
MW: Oh, Świdnica was a very interesting, small town -- it's around sixty
2:00thousand people -- which was mainly ethnically Polish, but it was also,historically, very important place for the Protestant German community livingthere. After Second World War, that was one of the major places for settlementof the yidisher yishev fun nider shlezye [Jewish community of Lower Silesia], sovery strong Jewish community between 1945 and 1968. I was born in 1966, so Idon't recall really the strong, vibrant Jewish community, but I still recallsome Jews living in Świdnica, and institutions -- Socio-Cultural Association ofJews in Poland had its branch in Świdnica, and I recall it. It was alsointeresting because, quite differently from other places in Poland, it wasreally multicultural, because of still-visible German presence -- there weresome German families living in Świdnica, and -- especially in the area of myneighborhood -- and there were some Greeks. After the Greek uprising in the 3:001940s, and after crack on the Communist power in Greece, many -- as you mightnot know the history -- many Greeks emigrated from Greece to the Eastern Bloc --to the Soviet Union Bloc -- and, actually, quite a significant number of thoseGreeks settled in Poland, including Świdnica, so we had also a sizable Greekminority. Well, telling for, I don't know, New York or American standards, it'snothing, but comparing to what is in Poland -- so homogenic and so ethnicallyPolish -- that was quite multicultural place, and very interesting for me.
CW:What was the relations between ethnic Poles and minority --
MW:What was the relation? Usually negative. I mean, negative when it came to
defining ethnicities, because, as long as it didn't come to, we all spoke Polish 4:00and we all play the same sandbox. But when it came to, you know, quarreling overanything, the ethnic divisions were quite important element, especially inrelation -- you'd be surprised -- not to Jews, but to Germans. We were raised invery fierce anti-German hatred, which was part of Communist propaganda, and,actually, Communist identity-building of the Polish nation and the Polish stateafter 1945. Of course, it was the Western Germany that were bad guys -- all theNazis resettled to West, and all the good Germans resettled into CommunistGermany. That was the propaganda. We were raised on the Second World War movies,on the stories -- how brave Poles were persecuted by ugly Germans, and on andon. So these anti-German phobias and stereotypes were extremely strong. And Ibelieve that my generation is still, in some way, intoxicated by those. Maybenot as much today as it used to be in the past, but obviously there is kind of 5:00resentment among some people. That was very strong element. We were -- one ofour favorite plays -- games -- at the yard was playing Germans and Poles, andthe Second World War, shooting each other -- nobody wanted to be Germans,because these were bad guys. And if we had to play, you know, the other side, itwas kind of humiliation. Jews were not part of this conflict, essentially --Greeks either. It was more about Polish-German, but the -- obviously, thisethnic division and ethnic conflict were part of the game.
CW: Hmm. Sorry, let me grab this up here, so I can keep track. So, what was your
exposure to -- if any -- to Jewish culture?
MW:Oh, it's not from my neighborhood -- from my early years -- it started only
the university, and, as for most of my students, it was quite accidental, I 6:00would say. In a sense that I was studying Polish literature, and it was 1980s.Polish universities were still dominated by structuralist approach --structuralism is extremely boring, as you might know from your history classes,because structuralism is today long gone, but in the 1980s, we had to do it thatway at the universities. I was totally bored, and I was looking for real life,some flesh and blood, in my studies. So I was searching for interesting sch--actually, I was looking for scholars who would be interesting people,interesting personalities, and would to teach interesting topics. I reshaped mycurriculums, because I was student good enough to be able to reshape curricula.At Polish universities at that time, it was very rigid. Everybody had to takethe same classes. If they studied Polish literature, everybody -- two hundredpeople -- had the same classes for five years in row, BA and MA I was goodenough to be allowed to reshape, and then, looking for what was interesting for 7:00me, I came across Professor Jerzy Woronczak, and I -- I want -- he was aextremely interesting person, interested in a variety of areas, with hugeexpertise, unfortunately writing very little. But the good side of this was thathe had a lot of time for his students. So he spent a lot of time talking to usand exposing us to new ideas and, actually, giving us hints and ideas how todevelop, that the way that we thought that we invented it. He was a extremelygood teacher. I came to him to study esoteric literatures, because that was thetime that I was interested in this kind of writings, in variety of languages.Some of those, of course, were connected to Kabbalah and the Jewish mysticismthat I wanted to study. He was not so much in favor, but he was clever enough to 8:00know that he is in power to push me in direction that only he knows what willcome out of this. So he very reasonably suggested if I want to study any of theJewish mysticism, I need to study languages first. So we started with languages,and then he took me to Jewish cemeteries in the area, just to read tombstonesand to do some of the documentation of the tombstones. And I realized it's sofascinating, I don't want to do anything more. And that's how I came to Jewishstudies, so that's kind of accident of -- well, of meeting interesting person,of my dissatisfaction with my primary object of studies, and of interest inJewish matters.
CW:So what's interesting to you about the cemetery work? What was interesting --
MW:What was interesting to me -- first of all, this is something -- you need to
understand the situation in the late '70s and eighteen-- 1980s in Poland, where 9:00there's very little about Jewish subjects in the media, in Polish publicdiscourse, because of kind of censorship on those topic in Communist times.After 1968, all topics related to Jewish culture were very disfavorably treatedby the Communist regime, and with censorship in publication, there was verylittle of this in public discourse. And one of the topics that was especiallydiscouraged was, of course, Jewish material heritage, because it touched on theissue of real estate, of reclaim of properties, maybe, and all those issues. Sothere was no topic of this. At the same time, there was a kind of absence inpublic discourse on those issues. At the same time, if you live in Poland, andif you walk the street, if you travel, whenever you go, you see a building thatis very distinct, very different from other architecture around, and you realizethis is something different. Then you have this empty lot of space, somewhere in 10:00the middle of town, with strange stones covered with letters that you can'tunderstand -- you can't read -- covered with beautiful symbolical images. Andit's there. So it's obviously something that talks to anybody. We want to knowwhat it is. And that's how it started for many people, I think, including for myprofessor, Jerzy Woronczak, and it was also interesting to me. It was alsoattractive in the way that this is -- how to put -- that's the better side of"The Fiddler on the Roof," that this is close and exotic at the same time. Butit's also kind of moral obligation. This is something, that this is the lastremnants of the murdered culture. There are hardly any Jews in Poland. You haveno Jewish culture in Poland -- that's what people thought in the 1980s. As youmight know, there was a book by Niezabitowska and Tomaszewski, with photographs 11:00and interviews with some Jews, and that last Jews, right? "Remnants: Last Jewsof Poland." They had a feeling that they are the last generation, and afterthem, there is nothing. They will die, there'll be no Jewish life anymore inPoland. Paradoxically, it's not the Nazis, but the Communist regime that broughtto the absolute low the level of Jewish life in Poland in the 1980s. But,anyway, that was our understanding of the situation, at the same time that wesaw the Jewish culture all around. Nineteen seventy-eight, that's the date forthe Nobel Prize of Isaac Bashevis Singer, which is extremely important forpeople, because he was here. He was in Lublin, Biłgoraj, Warsaw -- all thoseplaces are recorded in his writings, but it was very little of the publicationsavailable. So that's exactly the time that translations started to be published-- either old translations from before Second World War, or new translationsthat made after the war, that were brought to public and published in Polish. 12:00First from English, actually. Very much of the early translation of IsaacBashevis Singer were from English -- so-called authorized translations. Butthat's the general background for many people, and including me, of course. So Iwas collecting those rare books on Jewish culture, at that time, and I was veryfascinated at this. And documentation of this culture, of the murdered -- wecalled it archaeology, cultural archaeology, because that was like documentinglast traces of culture that is gone.
CW: Um-hm. I'm curious -- I mean, you were young -- but do you remember when
Bashevis won the Nobel Prize?
MW:No, '78, I was twelve years old. I'm not sure I knew what Nobel Prize was.
CW:Right, right. So which languages did you study first?
MW:You mean Jewish languages or --?
CW:Yeah.
MW:Oh, Jewish languages. I've never studied Yiddish properly. I studied -- I
13:00started with Hebrew, and it was -- how to say -- very old-fashioned, because myprofessor, Jerzy Woronczak, was traditional philologist. So he belie-- he didn'tbelieve in speaking languages. He believed in understanding languages andunderstanding the structure. Not knowing the language -- knowing of thelanguage, as he would say. So we started very simply, by learning Book of Ruth,from the Bible, by heart -- "Vayehi bimet shefot hashofetim, vayehi raavba'aretz [Hebrew: And it came to pass in the days when the judges judged, thatthere was a famine in the land] -- and on and on. The book is small, actually,so that was easier than having Bereishit [Genesis] by heart. But then, afterlearning it by heart, we had to analyze, you know, grammar and structure of whatis vayechi, that is vav, that's yechi. What is the form? What vav makes to thefuture form, turning it into past, and on and on -- so we had to go through allthis -- this grammatical way. It was very old-fashioned way of learning, ofcourse. It was very ineffective. I wa-- I didn't know proper Hebrew, at this 14:00time -- modern Hebrew, because I knew it either Biblical or the language of thetombstones. So, when I came to Israel for the first time, I was referring topeople the way it was written in the tombstones, so ish, ishah [Hebrew: man,woman] is not a problem, but, you know, betulah, what in the old Hebrew means"maiden," and contemporary Hebrew means "virgin." It was very strange for thoseyoung ladies, when I was calling them virgins, right? And -- but I learned notto do it anymore, in Israel. It was '93 that I came to Israel to study Hebrew. Iwas in a kibbutz, Ein Dor, in Ulpan Avodah, which -- you know how it functions?This is a mixture of labor for the kibbutz and of Hebrew classes. It's mainlyfor Olim Chadashim, for the new immigrants, and for some people sent from United 15:00States that they want to be -- Jews from the United States, that want to beexposed to Israel and real Jewish culture in Israel. So that was interestingmixture, because it's '93, '94. It was a lot of new immigrants from Russia thatwere at the kibbutz, and, actually, quite a sizable group of Americans. So Ilearned two other Jewish languages at that time, which is Russian and English,at the kibbutz -- I knew it from school also, but I had to be interpreterbetween those two groups, until they learned Hebrew. I had to translate, becauseI knew some Russian and I knew some English, at the time, so I had to translatebetween those two groups, whatever they wanted to have in common. It was forhalf a year. And then I was for a year in Jerusalem, for Hebrew course. And thenI read books in Hebrew, so that's all of my story. For Yiddish, I had neverproper instruction. I had only self-taught, and I had very little exposure toclasses in Yiddish. Other Jewish languages, Ladino -- I never took any Ladino. 16:00Aramaic is also -- also not my language.
CW:What was the reaction of your family and friends when you got interested in
the Jewish subjects?
MW:"Oh, really?" they say. Well, I've -- I understand the undertone of your
question, if there is any anxiety -- any people turning back to me -- but therewas not -- nothing of this kind. People were actually fascinated about thistopic. My family -- I believe that one of the reasons I got interested intoJewish culture was that there was always object of interest for my family. I wasraised in a family that we had very lengthy discussions on any topics. At thelunchtime, we sat together at the table and discussed for one, two, three hourssometimes. And Jewish culture and topics of Jewish history were always object ofthe discussions there. So I -- and in a positive way. There was never kind of 17:00anti-Jewish phobias that I was -- would be exposed, in a way, at home. So, forthis reason, it was obviously much easier for me. Which is not always with ourstudents -- I need to ask. There are some students who come to our classes andthey say, I heard so much about Jews, and they want to learn if it's true. Andobviously you can sense that they want to verify or falsify whether anti-Jewishstereotypes they heard are true or not. Which I think is a very genuine reason,actually, because -- and it's very brave, because they want to -- they are braveenough to challenge, to expose their stereotypes, and to confront them withexternal challenge. And for many people, it is not so, that they are so eager todo it. But that was not my case, actually. I've never been exposed to this kindof approaches, and never actually experienced any anti-Semitism. Obviously, Iwas very often taken to be a Jew, especially if I was traveling, looking for 18:00Jewish cemeteries, asking people for directions, asking people what they recallof the time of when that cemetery was still active. Because, you know, I wastraveling in the 1980s to Jewish cemeteries in central and eastern Poland -- ofcourse there was still many people living close to those places that rememberedhow Jewish cemeteries functioned, how Jewish funerals looked like, and on. So Ihad a lot of interviews with people whom I still remember, in those times. I --one day, I need to make use of those interviews. And obviously, those peopleconsidered myself to be Jewish, and they were even looking for ways of improperpronunciation of Polish by me -- which is not the case, because it's my nativelanguage, but still they were convinced that I'm Jewish. Otherwise I wouldn't doit, right? But it's about strangers, people that I didn't know. And for my 19:00friends, I've never approached any kind of negative responses.
CW:Is -- in your -- I mean, you've spoken a little bit about the cemeteries, but
was there a particular aspect of Jewish culture that was -- that you said, "Oh,wow, okay, this is something I want to pursue," that was particularly meaningfulto you? A book, or an experience?
MW:One -- I mean, "Fiddler on the Roof"?
CW:Not necessarily. (laughs)
MW:No, but, obviously, that was very important. Today all we laugh of "Fiddler
on the Roof," but obviously, when it was staged in Poland, when it was shown inPolish TV, that was extremely important. Especially, try to imagine a situationin Poland, when there is nothing about Jewish culture, and then you have thismovie -- very picturesque, nice melodies, something that you know is just next 20:00door -- used to be next door, but it's not there anymore. So, obviously, thatwas important. And there was a number of this kind of small elements, which Iwas obviously enchanted with. But I can't recall one most significant element --a turning point, that you are looking for, right? A revelation that came to mefrom a book -- no, I can't recall such a book.
CW:Okay. And how did you become interested in the -- this -- the Hasidic topic?
MW:Well, this might be the heritage of my interest in esoteric literatures and
mysticism, that was long gone. The first cemeteries, actually -- my firstresearch in cemeteries was on the graves of tzadikim [righteous people], so Iwas linking those two interests, from the very beginning of my studies. And -- I 21:00believe that so, that it came from this interest. Paradoxically enough, myinterest in Hasidism today is as far from mysticism as possible, because I amstudying social structures, and I am -- my major claim in the history ofHasidism today is that the vast majority of Hasidim had no clue about mysticism.That it was on a very different plane -- it was much more social, economical,and, even if -- existential, obviously not mystical experience, for most -- forthe hundreds of thousands of Hasidim living -- (phone rings) -- oh, I'm so sorry.
CW:Oh, it's okay.
MW:That's my wife, but I'll -- I'll call her later.
CW:It's okay.
MW:Um --
CW:Yeah, so, just -- I'm gonna move away from Jewish topics, although there
could be some connection, for just a minute.
MW:Um-hm.
CW:Are you involved in any political movements today?
MW:I was a bit active, but as a private, not as any -- an officer or general --
during the underground anti-Communist movement. In a sense, it was more culturalopposition, in the sense that I was bringing samizdat books to Wrocław fromWarsaw, and distributing them here. So I was part of this net of -- but that'sit. After we gained independence, '89, I decided that somebody else needs to dopolitics. I should go into different direction.
CW:What -- how did things change in '89?
MW:Oh, radically. We've got independence, you know. That's something.
CW:Yeah. How did it change the discussion of Jewish topics, if at all?
MW:It made it open. But I think that that change in this debate happened much
earlier -- late '70s, early eighteen-eight-- 1980s -- sorry, I'm still 23:00nineteenth century, 1880s -- 1980s. And, especially at the university, there wasvery beautiful, because with all this communist regime all around, universitieswere really free places. That was really place where we could discuss, that wecould talk freely, that we could read books that were published out of the reachof censorship, that were samizdat publications -- and, actually, some of thepublications were on Jewish topics, that I was selling, and reading, and buyingat the time, too. Including books that were not at all -- how to say --political. There were satirical story by Ephraim Kishon, for example, that wasnot political at all, but the very fact of publishing it underground meant thatthis is kind of cultural and political statement. We don't want to have anythingin common with those ugly communists. We want to be independent. And that wasactually creating this kind of widening area of cultural independence at that 24:00time. So I'm saying, in this respect, it is change for the wider public, butthose people who were interested, and who participated in academic culture andacademic world, the freedom came earlier, I believe. The 1980s -- that's thetime that things were growing, really.
CW:Are -- does religion play any role in your life now?
MW:Any role meaning that -- if I'm religious? Yes I am, yes. But it's very private.
CW:Yeah. Is there any connection between your academic work and your personal life?
MW:Obviously there is. Most of my friends are academics, so that's the obvious
way, right? And I think academic work is that kind that informs your identity, 25:00your personality, the way you perceive, where you can't -- first of all, youcan't work eight hours a day, right? Especially that all my books, and my desk,is at home, not here. So I have to work there, and I have to work all the day,morning to -- till night, and that's another aspect, of course. But I thinkthat's a kind of mission, also.
CW:You mentioned one of your -- this first professor, who -- who --
MW:Jerzy --
CW:-- sort of opened --
MW:-- Woronczak --
CW:-- Woronczak, who opened this topic to you.
MW: Um-hm.
CW:Have there been other important mentors or -- or people that you emulated in
terms of --
MW:Yes, another one -- I usually say I have two major teachers. One is Professor
Jerzy Woronczak. Another one, I met very late, because it was already 2000. Iwas -- after my PhD dissertation, I was already employed at the university. I've 26:00got postdoc fellowship of the Yad Hanadiv foundation in Jerusalem, and I had anadvisor there from Bar-Ilan University, that was Professor Moshe Rosman, who isa major historian of early modern Polish Jewish history and great intellectual,also. And these are -- those two people that informed me. It was very late stageof my life, in the sense that I was already academic at that time, but it wasbeautiful in the sense that I had one year just to reshape my academic work andto reshape my library, my way of thinking. I had a lot of time to discuss myproject. I was writing my postdoc dissertation -- we need to have postdocdissertation in Poland also -- habilitacja, which is like in German system,something unknown in America. I was writing on Haskalah and Hasidism, and their 27:00interrelations at that time, and he significantly reshaped my -- myunderstanding of academia in general and the way how it should be done. Alsoapproach to Jewish -- to Polish Jewish history. We are now close friends andwork together on several projects.
CW:Great.
MW:So two names, Moshe Rosman and Jerzy Woronczak.
CW:Going back a little bit, what was your first impression of Israel?
MW:First impression? Hot. I came there during chamsin [Hebrew: heat wave] in '93
-- it was my first time there. I was -- it was Oriental. It was exotic to me, ofcourse, ver-- today I don't feel it, of course. Also for the reason that Israelis changing. It is -- I mean, at least, in infrastructure, the way how it lookslike, it is becoming a bit more European than it used to be. Mentally, it's 28:00becoming more Middle Eastern, maybe, with how people behave, and -- politicalsystem is becoming much wider now. That's -- don't get into these topics. Butfirst impression were -- I was amazed. I was fascinated. And, actually, I wasenchanted, especially with Jerusalem. Multi-religious, multicultural, a mixtureof -- hotpot of everything. Now, two places in the world that I'm homesick --one is Wrocław, and one is Jerusalem. And it's until today.
CW:So I wanna talk a little bit now about your students --
MW:Um-hm.
CW:-- and teaching. What are the delights, challenges of teaching Jewish topics
in the Polish university system?
MW:Oh, first of all, what's the delight. It's beautiful that studying Jewish
29:00history -- Jewish studies -- in Poland is totally useless. Meaning you won'tmake any career. You won't make your parnose [livelihood] on Jewish studies. Soif you come to Jewish studies, it's purely of your intellectual pursuit. It'snot for any other reasons. So it's only for people that are genuinely interestedor fascinated into this topic. This is also -- the profits that we have of avery ambitious program that we established -- it's only minor, until this year.Next year we will start regular BA, major -- BA in Jewish Studies. Until todayit's only minor. But it's a very extensive program. It's much wider than anyother minor at the university. So it is, in a sense, very elitist. Very fewpeople can spend so much time, invest so much time in studying for minor that 30:00doesn't count for their academic career, really, unless they are reallyfascinated. It means that we get a lot of first-rate students, that we get beststudents of the univ-- of humanities, from this university, from variety ofclasses and variety of disciplines that they study. And, until today, Polishacademic system is very feudal, in the sense that students of history, throughfive years of their studying BA -- BA and MA in history -- they meet onlyhistory students and history teachers. With our program, it's something totallydifferent. They study in class that is composed of students from variety ofcourses, with different backgrounds -- intellectual backgrounds, I mean --different ways of approaching things. Literary studies, history, anthropology,sociologists, political science, law. We had also some people from hardsciences, even. One guy from mathematics, some architects, of course, and on. So 31:00those are the people that come with very different backgrounds, very differentway of thinking and analyzing things. It's also very much rewarding for us,because they have pleasure of learning each other and exposing their ownidentities to each other. And this is also great pleasure for teaching thoseclasses, because they are truly fascinated by what's happening there. The sameis the challenge for teaching Jewish studies, because it is -- we can't offerthose students too much, in the sense that they will never make their living onwhat we offer to those people, so we have to understand this limitations. Andmany of those students understand it all too well. When it comes to taking, youknow, classes, credits, coming with, you know, where the diploma, to, you know,all this -- nostrifications [sic] with the diplomas, and on and on -- we are in 32:00very unfortunate situation, because we are somehow outside of the universitysystem, because of -- because offering such a minor program, which does not fitinto anything else. This is difficult. We decided to change it this year. We areopening regular BA in Jewish studies, and we'll see what happens. First of all,if students come, and, if they come, if they are good enough. And, if they aregood enough, if they are really into it. I'll tell you in half a year from now.
CW:Yeah. Is there a community that you identify with around your academic focus?
You know, you've traveled all over the world, but I wonder if there's acommunity here in Poland?
MW:Yes, we have Polish Association of Jewish Studies. I'm deputy chair of this
33:00association, and I'm very much involved in building this community. I think it'sextremely important. I'm also editor-in-chief of "Studia Judaica," which is semi-- academic periodical, semi-yearly, of this association. Also investing a lotof my time to having the best of the articles of this small community published.So, yes, yes, I think it's extremely important, actually, to build cooperation.It's far too much competition -- you know, two Jews, three opinions, right? Twoscholars of Jewish studies, six opinions. So that's how it looks with us. And Ithink it should be much more cooperation than competition, and that's why I'm sostrongly involved in building this community.
CW:I understand that many of the Polish scholars in Jewish studies are actually
MW:-- much. No, that's -- that's not true. Now we come to Yiddish studies --
CW:Okay.
MW:-- because that's the very clear division in Poland, that majority of Jewish
studies is Jewish history in Poland. And majority of -- in general categories,it's men. In sex categories, it's men. Men doing Jewish history. Men doing --men are more in history in general, and in Jewish history in particular. So ifyou look at the associ-- Polish Association of Jewish Studies, I think it'saround sixty or sixty-five percent of the members that are men. It's verydifferent in literary studies, and it is different in Yiddish studies, becauseYiddish studies in Pol-- especially Yiddish studies are much moreliterature-oriented. It is not so that Yiddish is considered to be just the 35:00language of studies. This is object of studies itself. Which is very importantto understand, because it also creates kind of ideology. You'd be surprisedthat, you know, Czernowitz Conference is still alive in Poland. There is verystrong, ideological, Yiddishist revival -- people who are committed to languageand who are very strong into researching this language, but also into buildingthe community -- academic community -- of people focusing on Yiddish only. So ifyou have periodicals like "Cwiszn," that you know. You have many people who areideologically reviving Yiddish, and on and on. Among those group, there -- thereis big number of women, strongly feminist-oriented, and I think that's simplybecause those two things go together. That this is the building of, you know,the mythology of the persecuted, of the downtrodden, and, you know, second-track 36:00-- all we are out, you know -- Hebrew persecuting Yiddish, men persecutingwomen, and everything. Which is historically very true -- today it's nothingmuch more than building -- identity building. Which it's f-- kind of fun to me.
CW:In your students and your colleagues, where -- what is the role of sort of
identity building with this -- with academic -- within the academic realm?
MW:There is a component, obviously, for everybody, but the different ways of
using Jewish studies for identity building -- the vast majority of our studentsare ethnic Poles of Catholic origin. And I don't know whether today they areCatholics -- I mean, practicing, coming to church, and if religion is stillimportant element of their identities -- but obviously they come from Catholicfamilies. And for those people, Jewish studies is more an expression of 37:00dissatisfaction with the dominant Polish culture, so-called national culture,which is strongly dominated by quite an ugly aspect of Catholic culture, whichis xenophobic, which is strongly anti-Semitic, which is ethnocentric in originalcategories. And people are dissatisfied with this. Jewish studies is a way oflooking on Poland -- on Polishness -- in much extended category, because for ourstudents, and -- like for me -- Jews are Poles also. They are from here and ofPoland. They were in Poland, of Poland. They were part of this community, right?Much extended. And if so, the Polishness doesn't have to be the way that people 38:00from the extreme Right, from the national and xenophobic circles, try to portrayit. And, in this sense, the -- studying Jewish history and Jewish culture --Jewish studies in general -- is element of this identity building, justextending -- expanding category of Polishness. There is small group of peoplewho say they are of Jewish origin, which is different than being Jewish, atleast now. Or simply they are Jewish. Or -- that's the most interesting category-- they suspect of being Jewish. Which means -- that's funny story -- I know solittle about my grandfather or grandmother that he must have been Jewish. Whichmeans that possibly they're -- they suspect that grandmother or grandfather washiding behind Aryan papers during the Holocaust, and never -- after theHolocaust never revealed his or her identity. Which is very typical, actually, 39:00pattern. The Communist times was not a great time to reveal Jewishness, so manypeople still pretended. They still lived on their Aryan papers, after theHolocaust, and they -- some of those -- never revealed it to their children andgrandchildren. And it's not -- it's only second or third generation, they aretrying to investigate. I think it's not only those families, but existence ofthose families for much wider circles of Poles, of those who have spotlessheritage -- good yikhes [heritage], Polish and Catholic -- it's important torealize that you'll never know. That the -- and they are becoming aware of thefact that Polish community's not so homogeneous and not so monoethnic andmonoreligious and monocultural as it would seem on the first sight. So, in thissense, there are many, many more people suspecting some possible Jewish elements 40:00-- ah, spring has come, eh? -- and then, this is actual phenomenon. But I thinkthat -- that's something that is critical for identity for our students, andthis Jewish studies play extremely important role in this. There is alsocategory of people for whom studying Jewish studies is part of their Catholicidentity. Which is connected with Second Vatican Council and with rebuildingCatholic identity. They don't want to -- Catholics to be in-- exclusive. Theywant to understand Jewishness of Jesus, Jewishness of Apostles, Jewishness ofearly church. And they want to understand how those who didn't becomeChristians, but were fellows of Jesus or Apostles -- how they developed, andthat's interest in Jewish culture. One of our students told me once that he'sinterested in alternative path of Jewishness -- of Christianity, sorry. That 41:00Jewishness was kind of alternative path. So the Jewish culture was developing intwo different ways -- one of those is Christianity, and one of those isJewishness. This is interesting, because they're also interested in aspects ofcontemporary Jewish life, of secular Jewish life, not only in the Bible. Usuallythey come with interest in the Bible, of course, but it goes much wider. Sothat's another identity-building element, but quite surprising direction, Iwould say. So, obviously, for everybody, the Jewish studies is identity-buildingelement, but it might be in very different areas.
CW:Um-hm. Have you noticed any trends -- things that have changed since you
began teaching in this field, working in this field?
MW:Working or teaching? Because studying -- it happened, what -- I started,
42:00like, 1980s -- I started teaching only '96, and actually our program started2003, so there are very different stage. The first stage was obviously veryamateurish, comparing to what we have now. Now we have much better institutionalsituation. When I started, those that knew -- not Jewish languages, but Hebrewalphabet -- were few. Today you can't imagine student of Jewish studies, ofYiddish -- without Yiddish, Hebrew, or both of those languages. Thirty yearsago, those reading literature in English were rare. Today, you can't imagine anystudent not having full command of English, so that is totally different world.Please remember I started those interests in -- still in the Communist times, soit's incomparable. It's incomparable.
CW:Right. Um --
MW:You were still, what, preschool? You were not born that years? Eighty-eight, '87?
CW:So, from where your -- from your perspective, where do you see the place of
Yiddish within the Jewish studies in --
MW:Okay --
CW:-- the country?
MW:-- we touched on this issue already. My approach to Yiddish, as to Hebrew, as
to any other language, is purely pragmatical, because my discipline is history.So I -- even if I'm studying documents in Yiddish, Hebrew, Polish, German, oranother language, it's purely the vehicle of knowledge on historical phenomena,on social history. I did some research on how languages built identity of thecommunity, so in this sense Yiddish is part -- is a component, but it's notprime component for me, in any way. So, as I say, it's purely -- purelypragmatical. But, as I was saying, Yiddish is extremely important element of 44:00kind of community building for those who are studying Yiddish, Yiddishland --the Yiddish culture, as they say. Which is kind of contested concept, in itself,I would say -- Yiddish culture. Do we have Hebrew culture? Do we have Ladinoculture or Sephardic culture? Do we have Ashkenazi culture or Yiddish culture?It's -- well -- but, obviously, this is part of this game, and there is strongcommunity trying to portray Yiddish as, you know, the jewel of the crown of thisculture, and build it around Yiddishism. It's very strong, both in academy and outside.
CW:So, thinking about sort of the connection between the academic world and
outside, how do you see the role of the academic in transmitting culture, or not? 45:00
MW:In Yiddish culture, or culture in general?
CW:In general.
MW:Well, humanities is -- they pay us for transmitting culture, because what we
do eventually translates into national culture, right? Into building of nationalculture. And our role is researching it, making it understandable, andtransmitting it to others. It's either we academics who do it -- but usuallypoorly -- or we help others -- people who are journalists, who are specializingin popularizing culture -- that they are aware of new trends, of betterunderstanding of what's happening. For Jewish culture, and for Yiddish culture,quite interestingly, a big number of scholars are also involved in popularizingthe information about Jewish culture. Especially in Yiddish. If you take"Cwiszn" -- most of people involved in "Cwiszn," in this periodical, are peoplestrong in academy. So that's quite visible. Which it might be a result of the -- 46:00a feeling of the mission that we have. Being in Jewish studies, as I told you,there is no parnose in here, so all we are for some other altruistic reasons,more or less so. So maybe for this reason, also, we understand better thanpeople in other aspects of humanities, that this is kind of culture building.
CW:How would you say what -- what your personal mission is in this?
MW:I hope I'm -- I help people think. I teach them how to think. How to analyze,
how to be consistent, rigorous. How to be critical in their evaluations of 47:00evidence, of building their thesis, of verifying or falsifying thesis. That'sit. So I teach them to think.
CW:I wanna ask now a little about your involvement with this new museum in --
MW:-- in Warsaw.
CW:-- Warsaw. First of all, just what is your -- I know you've done s-- you have
some relation with this --
MW:It's long relation, um-hm. Long and painful relation, one would say. Seven
years already. Actually I -- it started twelve years ago, but I was involved inthis project for half a year only, and then I quit. And I came back in twothousand, what, six -- April, 2006, exactly, seven years ago, as co-author ofthe gallery on the 19th century. The museum has been divided -- I mean the 48:00permanent exhibition of the museum -- has been divided into seven chapters,histor-- seven historical chapters. And each of those chapters got a historianor two historians to design a historical narrative for this chapter. And I wasco-responsible for the 19th century. So this is essentially my narrative. And,since then, I'm involved in developing this narrative and helping the museumteam into building this story. Some three years ago, I became, as they say,uber-historian -- the head historical consultant for the project, in the sensethat the museum finally realized they can't have seven teams -- seven historicalteams -- without cooperation between them. So it was important to supervise howthe -- how certain historical concepts, even terminology, flows -- how it goes 49:00through different galleries. How it starts, develops, ends, and -- just tocoordinate between those. I was involved in this role for two years -- almosttwo years, and I quit it, so now I am still involved in consulting 19th century.That's it.
CW:What do you hope that the -- or expect that this museum will do or not do in
its role?
MW:To me or to the world?
CW:To the world.
MW:To the world. I'm not so optimistic about, you know, one museum changing the
world. To me, I thought that that's the best way of disseminating my vision ofhistory, of my knowledge. If I publish a book and sell five hundred copies, it'snothing. If I tell the same narrative, even in simplified word, to half a 50:00million people a year, that's something. So that -- that's what dragged me tothe project. Of course, I understand that this is project that is historicallyvery important for changing perceptions -- self-perceptions and perceptionsbetween Polish and Jewish communities. I don't think it will happen soon, and Idon't believe that the museum is spotless, that will do the best possible work,because obviously there are some advantages, disadvantages. Some things couldhave been done better, but what is good about this museum -- it's extremelyhonest. It would -- the narrative -- maybe the only museum of this kind in theworld -- the narrative was built totally beyond any political pressures. Therewas a lot of suspicions about this museum, on both sides -- on the Jewish 51:00community, suspecting this will be apologetic -- Polish museum claiming how goodPoles were for the Jews, right? And there was a lot of suspicion on the Polishside, suspecting this will be anti-Polish narrative. And we were very fortunateto build our narrative without any political pressures on us. I'm not sayingpolitical pressures in general, because we were aware of the fears and ofsuspicions -- of suspections, and on -- but it is not so that, you know, peopleholding control of the museum would come to us and say, You can't say this, Youcan't say this, This is something that is not allowed to be presented here, or,You need to soften this. There were never any pressures of this kind on us, on 52:00historians. And, actually, to the opposite. We wanted our exhibition to bepresented to wider communities, and we went with our projects to hear criticismof others, because we were so perfectly, uh, cut from these outside pressures.It's great. That's something very -- very unique. I'm not saying that, becauseof this, our presentation will be best balance, because we -- all we bring ourperspectives. But what's good: this team was international. There were Polishscholars; there were Israeli scholars; there were American Jewish scholars. Andwe worked quite long on building narrative that is acceptable to all of us. So,at least for the principles, we all agreed on this, and then we were involvedfor long after this into fine-tuning and designing details of this exhibition. 53:00So even if there are some misrepresentations, they are not on the grand scale, Iwould say. That's something exceptional for such a large political -- after all-- project.
CW:Right. I just have a couple more questions here. I wonder if there's anything
that you particularly wanted to present to this -- the audience, of whoeverwould see this interview before I ask my last questions.
MW:You want me to sing and dance?
CW:Well, if you want. (laughs) I wanna ask a little bit about this idea of
Jewish studies not being for parnose. Have you seen, um --
MW:Oh, you say parnose? It's --
CW:Parnose.
MW:-- it's Viln, Vilnius pronunciation.
CW:Yeah, I guess so. Have you seen any of your students go on to be part of the
MW:Oh, first of all. I have two PhDs promoted. I am very proud of both, and both
ladies got academic positions, which is exceptional, today. And I'm extremelyproud of this success, and I believe it's simply because both were great. So I-- so it's not true that they will never get any income, they will never getanything of, you know, professional life, from their Jewish interests. But thereis little hope. It's not like studying Jewish studies in United States, and thenyou have Jewish communities, then you have Jewish foundations -- you have a lotof Jewish life, that you can expect that your Jewish education will be importantelement of this. Here it is not so. There are few Jewish institutions, very 55:00small, unable to employ you. And still some people got their employment withinthose. And the fact that we have such a good result is very important to me. I'mextremely happy about it. So that's our situation. That's our situation. It'snot only about my PhD students. It's also a lot of our graduates from our minorprogram, that in their life they continue to be involved in Jewish studies, inone way or another. For example, we have possibly the biggest number of PhDstudents among our graduates. Well, it -- we can't claim that we make them intoPhD students because, after accepting the best students from humanities, it'sobvious that they will come into PhD later on. But what is beautiful is thatmany of those people make the PhD in one or another way connected to Jewish 56:00studies. And, actually, they make quite a few of those. They write their PhD onJewish topics, outside of our department. In history, in book department, and inother places, that are -- with their PhD advisors from those departments, butthey keep contact. They come to my PhD seminar, and they develop their skillsthat they bring from here. So some of those will eventually get their positionswithin history, sociology, and other departments, and Jewish studies will bepart of this -- of their background and what they teach, what they research. SoI think we are expanding this way. Is this part of the parnose, or maybe not?It's difficult to say. It's difficult to say, because, as I say, we expand theirway of understanding their own disciplines. But I think that's important, and it-- I'm very happy about it. I'm very proud of this successes. We have severalnumbers of students that got into PhD programs outside of Poland also. Getting 57:00very nice presidential fellowships in Israel, getting nice fellowships atAmerican universities. Agnieszka Ilwicka, that you know, is one of thosestudents that got brought to the Yiddish Book Center. I was very happy that shegot there, and she wants to return, and continue with her studies. So there is alot of people that got into this, but, as I say, it's not something like regularparnose. You study engineering and you know that you'll get your money fromengineering. It's not so.
CW:Right. Well, I know that you've spent time in Israel, in the US, and all
over. I wonder --
MW:All over is overstatement.
CW:Well, you know, in various parts --
MW:I spent two years in Beijing. I spent several years altogether in Israel. I
spent maybe two semesters altogether in United States. Some time in Germany and 58:00England. But it's not all over, right? Africa's still awaiting me.
CW:And Australia, South America --
MW:Australia, South America. It's a lot of -- a lot of places I need to go, so.
CW:But still, I wonder if you have any sense of what the perception of this
interest in Jewish topics in Poland is perceived from the other centers ofJewish -- in the academy?
MW:First of all, people who are not so much in Jewish studies know very little
about it. And even if they are in Jewish studies, they need to be in EastEuropean Jewish studies to know what's happening here. Because the vast majorityof studies that we do here in Poland is East European Jewish history andculture. If you are not into this field, you know very little about it. Oncepeople learn about this development, they're extremely fascinated. And actually, 59:00three weeks ago, I was in University of Michigan and Wayne State University,giving lectures exactly on Jewish -- development of Jewish studies in Poland.People were absolutely amazed about the scope and speed of this development.That's something, you know, encouraging -- extremely encouraging that it'sdeveloping so well, I would say. In Israel, I would say people don't appreciateit, because they have no proper perspective. And anything comparing to Israel isnot so great as it should be, right? So -- (laughs)
CW:I'll ask sort of a silly question before the last question here. Do you have
a favorite Yiddish word or phrase?
MW:No. I have no favorite word in any language, I'm afraid. I'm over-talkative,
so I can't, you know, over-privilege one word against others. 60:00
CW:Do you have an eytse [piece of advice]? Do you have advice for future generations?
MW:Advice for future generations -- oh that is a silly question. No, no, I'm not
a Wise Man of Chelm, to give advices.
CW:Okay. Well, a sheynem dank, thank you very much --
MW:Thanks a lot.
CW:-- for taking the time --
MW:Thanks a lot.
CW:-- to speak with me and the Yiddish Book Center.
MW:Thanks a lot. It was pleasure to talk to you --