DOROTA LILIENTAL ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney and today is May 1st, 2013. I am here in Warsaw with Dorota Liliental and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

DOROTA LILIENTAL:Yes, you do have my permission. (laughter)

CW:Thank you. So, I want to start talking a little bit about your family background. There's some specific people we want to talk about. But can you give me a general overview to begin?

DL:Okay, when I grew up, I didn't really have a -- when I was growing up, I didn't really have a sense of being Jewish, you know? I was raised in a mostly 1:00Christian family, or at least they lived like Christians. But I didn't really -- my grandmother kept telling me that there was something she wanted to tell me. She wants -- she wanted to talk to me about something, but she waited for the time when I grow up and be more mature enough, because she doesn't want to burden me with it. And I didn't -- I wasn't really aware of Jewish background. I mean, I kind of sensed it, because kids at school often called me żydowa [Polish: Jew (pejorative)], żydowa. It's a pejorative name, yes? It's not żydowka [Polish: Jewish woman], it's żydowa. And I didn't really know what to do with it. I also remember when I went to high school, I had this teacher, 2:00Polish teacher, and I had always been good at Polish. I actually won some kind of an award for writing a composition when I was graduating from elementary school. So, I didn't know why this teacher really hated me and, you know, anything I wrote was wrong and she ridiculed me in front of the class. And many, many years later, I learned that she was actually coming from a very nationalistic, conservative faction that hated Jews. So, just the name Liliental was, you know -- just made her -- I mean, the -- in the Polish -- maybe I will start this sentence again. (laughs)

CW:Sure.

DL:You know, well, the -- just the last name Liliental released her anti-Semitic emotions, yes? Because I found no other explanation for what she was doing to me. I was actually skipping classes and, you know, I felt very bad after school. Then, shortly after, I went to the United States, because my mother was a physics professor, and she got a scholarship in -- first in Arizona, and my sister and I followed her. And so, when did I learn about -- okay, I remember, once I was studying for -- history exam. And just out of the blue, my father tells me, "And by the way, do you know that we're of Jewish background?" You know, that we have Jewish ancestors. But at that time, it didn't -- you know, I 4:00mean, it didn't really matter that much to me. I mean, I wasn't very shocked. It just -- I felt -- there was nothing wrong with it, but then I just didn't get involved in any, you know, reading or -- just didn't search for anything, yes? And my grandmother -- as I said before, she told me some things about her past, but she -- so, I kind of knew that she had to -- I knew that she had to live under a different identity during the war, yes? Her name was changed. And she also told me about some friends of hers and family members that died in the 5:00ghetto. But I didn't really know about the roots of my family, you know? And then, for many years, I just had other issues on my mind, because it was the emigration, the divorce of my parents, and I became a mother. And I think -- actually, the first time, when I learned about Regina was, I think I took a year off. I was -- at the time, I was a student at Berkeley University and -- no, I was still at Arizona, yes. Arizona State University. And I came to Poland -- I took a year off, and unfortunately my grandmother and I never had the serious conversation because she had a stroke a few days after I came to Poland. She then went to hospital and she died a few months later. So now, I regret not 6:00having asked her many important questions, you know? I have so many questions, I -- you know, my father cannot answer them, my mother cannot answer them. But anyways, I think it was in the beginning of 1984, I was in Warsaw and all of a sudden, I get this phone call from a man -- from an American man who is visiting Poland, and he told me that he -- his mother's name is -- last name is Liliental and she and he are in Poland now, and he has a family tree and he asked whether he could see me. And he -- I actually invited him home and he showed me this family tree. And he -- I don't remember now, but, of course, there was some 7:00relation between us, but we are not, like, really close, yes? But he showed me the family tree and he says, "Oh," you know, "and your great grandmother was a very famous writer and a publicist." But if I'm not mistaken, he said something like, "She was a writer for children." Probably he got it confused, because he wrote -- she wrote "Jewish Child," you know, this was one of the titles of her works. And, you know, and then it made me wonder why nobody told me, why nobody read any stories for children, you know? I would have been proud of her, I -- this is the first time I heard about her. And I asked my father and he admitted, "Yes, yes, that's true," but -- and he told me a little bit more. Like, as far as he knew, she was -- she was specializing in the Jewish folklore, and this is 8:00the first time I actually learned about her. So, not from my family, but from a stranger who was somehow related to me, okay.

CW:And now, what do you know about her?

DL:Oh, I know much, much more, of course. You know, at -- and at first, I had a problem with finding anything about her. And for many years, I lived in the States. And when I returned to Poland, I once went to JHI. So, this is the Jewish Historical Institute, and I think I read some fragments of "Jewish Holy Days," written by my great-grandmother. And, you know, and then when -- at the 9:00time when you could start using the internet, I found some more things. But only one -- only "Jewish Child" was published in Poland, after the war, you know? There aren't actually any books published, yes? So, I think there are two factors that made me more interested in search -- and made me search information about her. One is, like, development of my Jewish identity. And I think it started when I -- when I started playing in films, you know? I graduated from a drama school in California at Berkeley University -- or, the University of Berkeley drama department. There, it's funny, I was usually cast as a Slavic 10:00woman, you know, because they thought I have a bit of a Slavic accent. So, I played Russians and, yeah, a Czech woman once, yes. And when I came to Poland, you know, I was a single mother. I came here with a little baby, Alexander. He was born in California. And when I started playing in films, I was usually cast as a Jewish woman, and not just a Jewish woman but -- also a Holocaust victim. So, you know, when you die on the set for the thirtieth time, when you get killed, you really start -- I mean, it all becomes real, yes? You really 11:00identify with those people, and I felt like maybe -- I started feeling that maybe some stories that my ancestors hadn't told me are coming to me through this experience, yes? Because, you know, when I came home after playing a Holocaust victim, I actually came and cried and cried and cried, and I couldn't stop. And this whole pain became real. And then, I just, you know, started to be interested in my Jewish background. I met some people from the Jewish community here. I started going to events, and there are more and more of them now. And then, I came into contact with Piotr Gracikowski from the Jewish -- Institute of 12:00Jewish Studies at the Wrocław University, who is writing his post-doctor-- his doctoral thesis, yes, about Regina Lillientalowa. And I am so grateful to him because I have a feeling, like, you know, like there are beads in one -- that class, and some of them are -- were missing, went missing. And now, I got them back, yes? And he provided me with so much information about Regina and about her children. One of her children was my grandfather, Antoni, whom I have never met because he was killed in Katyn. He was a very handsome man of thirty-one, 13:00and yes, he was one of the victims of Stalin, and I want to emphasize this because in the Polish narration, in the Polish -- in the consciousness of most of the Poles, you know, Jews were the ones who collaborated with Stalin. And the truth is that there were so many Jewish soldiers that actually were killed by Stalin, yes? Jewish or of Jewish background. And so, I know a lot of things from Piotr and I keep in touch with him all the time. I can even say we've become friends and I'm very, very grateful to him. And I see him once in a while. He lives in Wrocław. I -- when I have some questions, I call him. And a few years 14:00ago, we were actually searching for Regina's graveyard for the matzevah [tombstone], because I know she was buried in the cemetery in Gęsia Street. But unfortunately, we couldn't find it. We found the matzevah of -- where her mother was buried. Her name was Blumafika Halpern, yes? So, it's very likely that the matzevah that is -- stands next to it, where you can treat the letters -- yes, it's very old. Maybe this is where Regina was buried, but we cannot be sure. (laughs)

CW:Wow. Can you just give me a summary of what you know about Regina's work and 15:00-- yeah.

DL:Okay, so I think that there are just two important aspects of her, of her work. I think that she was someone like a -- that as a Jewish intellectual living in Poland, she felt responsible for her nation. She was someone -- like a spokeswoman for the nation, because the nation was silent, yes? Had been silent up to that point. And probably, she -- she realized at some point that this culture was threatened. Maybe she even had the premonition of its vanishing in the future. And she wanted to do everything to preserve it. She felt it was a big treasure. And so, she was a very brave woman and she -- I really like 16:00reading her -- as a publicist, not only as an ethnographer, because it was her -- the major thing that she was doing, yes? But she was also a publicist and she felt that the Yiddish culture and the Yiddish language are a great treasure. And she went against -- I mean, she fought with the assimilators bec-- and she said, "You know, when you -- if you claim you know the Jewish nation just having met the assimilators, you are wrong, you are mistaken, because you just know the margin of the society. You -- if you want to really get to know the nation, you really have to become familiar with its customs, with the folklore, you know? 17:00The superstitions, the proverbs and the literature, and -- that Jewish people have developed a culture and a civilization of their own. And its distinctive features and its uniqueness doesn't mean that it's hostile, you know? Get to know it," she says to the Polish people. "Get to know it and benefit from it. Treat it as an asset not as an enemy." And she wrote something -- I just recently got it from Piotr Gracikowski. She wrote something like -- it goes like -- maybe --

CW:Sure.

DL:-- maybe I -- oh --

CW:No, no, you can do it --

DL:Maybe -- I remember clearly, so -- "Do you think that Jewish people can become human beings just by depriving themselves of their own identity? Getting 18:00rid of their language? Can they be elevated to the top of humanity and ethics only with the Polish culture? No. They have a culture of their own. Don't tell them -- don't listen to the assimilators who are trying to deprive them of their individuality," okay? So, it -- I think it's very, very important, and she's saying that, you know, that Yiddish -- she keeps calling it jargon, but I think this is how they referred to it at that time, yes? But she actually said, you know -- she believed it had a status of a language, that its means of expression of for the thoughts, the happiness, the emotions of the Jewish nation, but also, 19:00you know, it has developed that scientific and philosophical terminology. This is the way that poets, writers, journalists express themselves. So, it's a whole civilization, yes? And, yes, and I -- oh, and Piotr also sent me a reply to her article, written by Boleslaw Prus. Boleslaw Prus was a very famous Polish writer. And Regina -- and he gets into dispute -- a dispute with Regina, yes, because he believes Jews should be assimilated and should start speaking Polish. And he says something like, you know, "How can Jews develop their culture on -- 20:00using this defaced German jargon," you know? "They have no culture of their own, and it's hard to call them a nation. It's just a community, you know? So, they should assume that the culture of the nation they live with. So, yes, I -- and the second aspect of her work -- well, of course, she was an ethnographer, yes? And she went from village to village. She collected the proverbs, the superstitions, the -- she talked to common people, and I think she -- I can assume she was born into a very traditional family. She was born in 1875, in eastern Poland. She -- I think she had about five brothers and sisters. She was 21:00born as Gitl Eger, okay? And actually, one of her ancestors was the famous rabbi, Akiba Eger. And she -- but to the non-Jewish world, she was known as Gitl. She went to a gymnasium -- a school in Sandomierz. And she got married at the age of twenty-one and she then moved to Warsaw. And, you know, I have some copies of the correspondence that she had with her chil-- especially with my grandfather, Antoni, when he was a little boy. Maybe I can read some of it. And I could see that they wrote in Polish. But I'm sure that being such an advocate 22:00of the Yiddish culture and -- I can imagine she put a lot of effort into teaching her own children about the Yiddish culture and I think she gave them some Yiddish lessons. I know nothing about it, but I can assume that, because it was so important to her, yes? And what else? Okay, so the second aspect of her activity was this feminist approach, okay? She -- I think she should become a very famous figure for the feminist movement, for gender studies, because she really fought for equal rights of women and men, yes? And she wrote about the 23:00inequality of the treatment of girls and boys, starting even during pregnancy, yes? Pregnant women preferred to have a boy, to give birth to a boy than to a girl. And she wrote that there was a belief that 'til the fifth month of pregnancy, Hashem [Hebrew: God] could change the sex of the child. So, the women would go to synagogues and listen to prayers, praying for the son, okay? And she -- okay, the -- some of the inequality, it was generated by the society itself. But some of it was generated by Talmud, the Talmud. And, for example, she -- one 24:00of the things she writes about is the -- you know, the time of menstruation. When you are niddah [period of time in a woman's menstrual cycle when Jewish law forbids conjugal relations] you are not supposed to share the room with your husband, share the bed with your husband. You're considered impure. And you should not even decorate yourself with ornaments -- not to provoke passion from your husband, yes? And, yeah, and she just writes about different aspects of this unequal treatment. So, (laughs) oh, and, yes, one thing, one other -- another thing that I remember: when she -- she also talks about the divorce. You know, according to the Jewish law, it's the man who can divorce a woman. He gives her the get [Jewish divorce]. It's not the other way around, yes? So, 25:00divorce cannot be initiated by the woman. So, yes, so, you know, it's very important -- it's all very important to me. I'm learning about who she was. I'm actually -- I don't know if she fore-- if she could have foreseen this, but her great grandmother -- shit -- who -- great -- (laughs) okay.

CW:We can take that out. (laughter)

DL:Okay, you'll -- (laughter) cut it out, okay. I -- so, I don't know if Regina could have ever foreseen that her great granddaughter will learn about the culture that she was cut off from, from her, you know? It's a great source of information, and I feel very -- I gain a lot of power from it, as a woman, as a 26:00woman of Jewish background. It's very important for my identity. Yes, so, also, I don't know, should I read some of the letters written by my --

CW:Sure, let's read some.

DL:Okay. So, maybe later on, I will show you the -- some of the photographs. See, this is the obituary.

CW:Wow.

DL:The obituary that was, yes, written after her death obviously, yes? She was buried in Gęsia Street. Okay, so my grandfather Antoś -- oh, it just breaks my heart, because he was such a charming little boy. And he was a chemist by 27:00profession, but my grandmother, Stefania, she told me that he was such a great character and he had many talents. When guests came, he would make some theatrical performances for them and he sang very nicely, and he had some artistic talents. He could draw very well. And you could see a very vivid imagination and just, you know, it's -- it really breaks my heart. So, here's a letter. He was probably about eleven, twelve years old, yes? And he writes this letter. I will translate it, so --

CW:Sure. If you want to read it in Polish first and then translate it --

DL:Okay, okay. "Droga mateńko i najukochańszy tatuśku. Winszuję Wam i życzę, żebyście w szczęściu i zdrowiu sto milionów lat żyli. Mateńka powinna z powodu tak wielkiej uroczystości wyzbyć się żółciowych kamieni. A tatusiek nerwicy. Bardzo się martwię, że będę musiał w tym dniu iść do szkoły. Ale trudno. Widząc, że was telegraf bez drutu bardzo interesuje, napisałem o nim referat. Przyjmijcie go, gdyż pisałem go ze szczerą chęcią napisania dobrze i dajcie się ucałować od Waszego synka. So, it goes -- it's written on the anniversary of Regina and Natan's wedding. I know they were wed in a very Orthodox synagogue in Szczebrzeszyn. W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie. I know you don't know what I'm talking about, but 29:00it's a tongue-twister. So, everybod-- every child in Polish -- in Poland knows this, and I have a great-grandmother who actually got married there. W Szczebrzeszynie, okay. So, he writes, "Dear mommy and dearest daddy, I congratulate you and I wish you that you could live in happiness and health for one hundred million years. Mommy should get rid of her gallstones on such a great day, and daddy should get rid of his neurosis on such a great day. And it's too bad that I have to go to school on this day of happiness, but I can't 30:00do anything about it. Knowing that the telegraph without wires" -- yes, it's -- so, it's -- I think he's talking about the telephone -- "is interesting for you, I wrote a report about it. Please take it, please receive it, because I wrote it with great willingness to spell well and please let me kiss you. Your son, Antoni." And he also -- oh, here is a letter I really like. He had this fantasy, he tells -- he writes his parents -- to his parents and he says that one day he would love to take them for a trip around the world in a vehicle that could fly, could sail, and go on the ground, you know? And it will be a design -- it will 31:00be his idea of design, yes? He'll design it by himself. And he says something like, "I think only Stasieńka -- Stasieńka?] is his elder sister -- "and I are lucky because we have such treasure having you as our parents, kissing you" -- I can't read that, even in Polish. I think -- I don't know, "thousands and thousands of millions" --

CW:Billions of --

DL:-- "of times" --

CW:-- times.

DL:Yes, and he actually -- he's very affectionate. He likes writing, like, "I kiss your cheeks, I kiss your legs, I kiss your hands," you know, "noses, foreheads." You know, a very cute child, yes? And now -- and Regina, I have a letter --

CW:Do you want to read that one in Polish, too? Do you mind?

DL:Okay. Chciałbym, żebyśmy zwiedzili cały świat w 32:00hydrosamochodopodwodnopowietrznym samolocie mojego pomysłu. Ale bez tego wszystkiego jestem i tak najszczęśliwszym człowiekiem na ziemi, bo nikt inny oprócz Stasieńki nie ma takich skarbów jakie my mamy mając Was. Całuję Was sto tysięcy razy, kochający Was synek Antoś. Yes, and Regina -- I also have a copy of a letter written by her. She -- I can tell she's a loving mother, but I can imagine her as a strict mother, as well, because she corrects -- you know, she -- he's so affectionate and she corrects his spelling and punctuation, and says, "Don't forget that after a point, you should start a sentence with a capital letter. And ask for a paper with two lines, because your letters should have the same size," you know? (laughs) But then, she's loving and, "Please, you 33:00know, be a good boy and don't make me forced to raise my voice at you," you know? So, I can imagine -- I mean, she looks a little bit like she could be -- she looks a little neurotic, you know? But I think it runs in the family, so -- (laughs) so, yes, I can imagine her as very, you know, concentrated on her work. I can tell she was a very good mother, because there is a lot of love in her that -- as well, but she was very demanding, too. And now, there is also, a special story about the sister. I don't know if I should --

CW:Yeah, sure, please.

DL:-- say it now, okay, because my grandfather, Antoni, had a sister named Stanisława, yes? And all the evidence show-- proves that she was his biological sister. Piotr Grącikowski told me that Regina had this one brother who died 34:00before he turned one year old. And his name was Stanisław, and her name is Stanisława, so it also -- you know, there is some connection, yes? So, you know, the -- Antoni's sister, Staszka -- is a -- Stasia, Stanisława, is often mentioned in the letters, yes? In the letter that I just read, he says that "only Staszka and I have such great treasure because we have you as our parents," yes? And in the pictures that I saw, Stanisława bears such a great resemblance to my younger sister, Joasia, who lives in California. It's really amazing. And Piotr Grącikowski also found this letter that Stanisława wrote in 35:001926 to the Academy of Learning in Krakow, where she asks for permission to translate, and her -- and publish the works of her mother. She wants to have them translated into French and be published in France. So, you can tell that she was very involved and she treasured what her mother had done, yes? Another thing that Piotr Grącikowski found was -- sort of like a book report with -- where you put the -- where teachers put -- professors put the marks, yes, when you are student. And there was a photograph of Stanisława where somebody drew side-locks, you know, on her. You know, peyes [sidelocks]. So, I think it was 36:00clearly an act of some anti-Semite, yes? And it's a very interesting story, because there is some mystery, you know, that is connected with her. I have never met her. I spoke to her somewhere around 1981. For many years, she lived in America and she was a mathematician and -- but also a painter. And she married a Polish man. She married him before the war. She married a famous Polish mathematician, Otto Nikodem. So, you can sometimes see some information about her as Stanisława Nikodemowa- Nikodemowa is the suffix that you add for 37:00married women, yes? And she emigrate -- she and he emigrated to America in 1948. My father remembers her -- right after the war, when he was a little boy, he -- 'cause my father was born in January of 1939 -- she came to him and she read "Robinson Crusoe" and she -- so, she went to America. I think, at first, she and her husband worked somewhere in Ohio. But then, well, my father and his mother emigrated to South Africa for a while. They returned in '58, I think. And they corresponded with this aunt for a while, but then it sort of, you know, broke off. And many, many years later, when we emigrated to the states, my father 38:00decided to search for her. And he -- so, first, he looked for her in this university in Ohio. But they told her that she -- her husband had died many years ago and that she now lives in Utica in the state of New York. And so, he found her phone number, and with a trembling voice, he called her many, many years later, yes? And after -- I mean, after such a long break. And she answered the phone, and she was very nice, but she said, "You know, but I'm really not a family -- I was adopted, and your father was not my brother. He was my godson." My father asked, "But how is it possible, you know, I" -- he didn't think it was 39:00for real, because he would have known from his mother. And he remembered her and he -- you know, there was all this evidence showing that she was a family -- and then, he wrote her a long letter summarizing thirteen or plus years, you know? And I remember talking to her on the phone one or two times, too. But she -- as I said, she was also a painter. She even sent us some paintings. My sister has one of them, and it's interesting because my sister is also a scientist and she doesn't paint anymore, but she took painting classes and she -- so, you know, the same connection, the -- you know, science -- and my sister is a molecular biologist, but she painted and there are some paintings of hers in her -- in 40:00this -- in her house. And my aunts, the same, yes? And so, you know, the aunt, Stanisława, she kept denying that there was a, you know, blood relationship between us, and she even sent -- she sent a picture of her and little Antoni, my father's father. And on the back, she wrote -- I'll show it to you in a moment. On the back, she wrote, with a trembling hand -- she was ninety, ninety-one -- at the time, she wrote, "This is my lovely godson, who grew up to be a man of uniquely noble character. It's too bad he was killed." But underneath, there -- maybe she didn't see it. Maybe she had already, you know, her sight wasn't that 41:00good at, you know, this age. But there was -- you can see the writing of -- the handwriting of Regina. "To my beloved sister on the day of her birthday, her little brother Antoś," you know? And there was a date. And later evidence showed that it was really her birthday and, you know -- so, unfortunately, aunt Stanisława -- I keep calling her now because I don't believe she was not a family. She died a few months later. And my father contacted the woman who had been taking care of her. And he introduced himself as the -- he said, "I'm Stanisława's brother's son." And he -- but she said, "Oh, I don't know about 42:00any family." She didn't have any family. And she refused to share anything, you know? And I think seventeen or eighteen years passed, and I think it was around the time when Piotr Grącikowski contacted my father. And my father thought, "Why don't I try again, as many years have passed? I don't really want to, you know, to get the house or any properties." Probably this is what this woman thought, you know? I think she kind of took the whole property after Regina and she was afraid there would be -- you know, if there was any proof that the two are -- were family, then, you know, she would have to give it back. But my 43:00father had absolutely no intentions to get any property, any material things. He just thought it would be very interesting to have some letters and documents connected with Stanisława, with her mother, Regina. So, I think it was around when, as I said, Piotr Grącikowski contacted him. And my father, at the time, knew that there was a book going to be written about Regina. And he decided to give it another try. And so, he called this woman and said, "Listen, it would -- it's really of great value and, you know, the others of this book are looking for any documents, any pictures, any correspondence connected with Regina, with her children." At first, this woman was nice and she even -- she -- I think she 44:00-- I mean, of course, she kept saying, "But, you know, you are not a family, yes?" Okay, but then she -- I think she called my father again and she said that she actually found some postcards, and she spelled the name and it was Eger, you know? And my father said, "Yes, yes, yes! This was the maiden name of my grandmother!" So, this woman, finally, she didn't send him anything. I think she got scared, because this was a clear proof that they were a family. But there is even more bitter irony in it, because when my mother -- when my father said that, you know, she -- that Regina was such an important Jewish writer, and it's 45:00very important for the Yiddish culture, for the Jewish culture, this woman said, "You know, Stanisława would not be pleased, would not have been pleased to have anything to do with it. She does not -- I don't think she would like to be associated with anything that has to do with Jews. In fact, she hated Jewish scientists." And my father was just numb, you know, because he thought, you know, My aunt, an anti-Semite? You know? And there have been some more attempts to get this -- to get those, you know, memorabilia from this woman. My father even asked the Polish consulate to interfere. But she refused. I have her letter, too. I can read it to you. She refused to say anything. I think -- she 46:00seemed like a very devout Catholic, you know, because she ends her letter, "May the Holy Spirit guide you." And she said that, in fact, Stanisława left all her properties to the church. And we started -- I don't know, we thought about this all because it's just an incredible story. And I think that it all happened because of the war, you know? This is the -- this is what happened to people. They assumed a new identity. She probably lived within a Polish community that was very Catholic, and she didn't want to admit that she was Jewish, to the point that she even refused to admit that she was our family. So, oh, this woman also told my father that before her death, Stanisława told her a sacred secret, 47:00okay? She actually called it something sacred. And my father said, "Oh, maybe she said she was of Jewish background." No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. She doesn't want to be associated with Jews, you know? So, this is very ironic, and you can -- especially that she was a daughter of somebody who fought against assimilation, who put so much effort into preserving this culture. But this is just the horror of the war, yes? You -- and some of the things in the past were cut off, and it's difficult to repair it. So, now I am learning Yiddish by -- a 48:00little bit. I can -- I know the letters and, yes, I -- (laughter) well --

CW:Great! Well, can I ask some questions?

DL:Sure, yes.

CW:I'd like to ask a little bit about your life, if that's all right, starting with what your home in Warsaw -- can you just describe it to me, what it looked like, what was the culture of your home?

DL:About my home before emigrating to the States or --

CW:Yeah, yeah.

DL:Oh, you know, it -- I think it was just -- I don't know, there wasn't anything special about it. My -- (laughs) both my parents were scientists. I was raised by my two grandmothers, mostly. I was very, very close with my father's 49:00mother, Stefania. She was Jewish. She -- her maiden name is Gleichgewicht, and she was a classical philologist. So, you know, all of the people in my family are scientists with PhDs. And I think only she and I had a connection, because we were into humanities and we had our own language. And I was very, very close to her. I even remember that I gave her my diary to read, you know, as a teenager, so -- but also, I think that she -- as I said at the beginning of our -- of this program, I don't know -- (laughter) she kept telling me, you know, "When you grow up, I have something important to tell you. I have -- but I don't 50:00want to burden you with it." She told me some stories about her marriage with Antoni, Regina's husband, and it was a very good marriage, you know? A very good couple. They met as teenagers. My grandmother lived in a Jewish section. Her -- I don't know much, because she didn't talk much about her childhood, yes? I only know that she -- after her mother died, she actually was kind of adopted by her teacher who -- and she went to such a well-known school for girls, but she didn't pay for it, because she was half an orphan. And she was angry at her father because her father had cheated on her mother when she was already dying, so -- and I think she saw her father many, many years later when he -- when 51:00there were -- when Warsaw was bombarded, and she met him in the shelter, with a little baby -- my father, you know? So, an amazing meeting like this. And something else I wanted to say, but -- oh, but recently, I was in Israel. I was in Israel two months ago, and I met an aunt that is a close family, but her parents emigrated before the war, before the Holocaust. And she actually told me that my grandmother's house was very religious. And she -- but she was rebellious and she wanted to get away with it, you know? So, I don't remember her go-- I know that she lived -- for some time, she lived a life of a 52:00Christian. But she had to have fake papers during the war. And after the war, for some years, she lived as Adela Stasiewicz, not Stefania Liliental. Yes, so my father actually went to the first communion. I think he learned about his true identity at the age of nine. But, as far as I can remember, I don't remember her going to the church. I don't remem-- I remember her laughing at Immaculate Conception. (laughs) She told me that her -- that, you know, Maryja was just very pregnant and, you know, very pregnant -- that Maryja as pregnant and she wanted to -- she was just afraid of her community, because she was not 53:00married, you know? So she had to escape, okay? And, yes, and, you know, my other grandmother, she -- my second grandmother, she lived in Podlasie, in eastern Poland. So, this was a very different -- she came from rural Poland, yes? So, this was -- yes, my parents divorced, but they came from very, very different backgrounds. Yeah, and, you know, and then I went to the States as a teenager, yes? And [UNCLEAR] --

CW:I'm curious, did you -- in the Polish schools, did you learn anything about the Holocaust?

DL:You know, actually, at the time when I was at school, there was very little talk about this. I think there were maybe a few sentences in the book, you know? 54:00I learned about it -- you know, my grandmother told me about -- 'cause she was a teacher, yes? And she was corresponding with her student who was in the ghetto. And this girl's death was such a catastrophe for my grandmother. And my grandmother must have lived in fear, you know, the whole time of the war. So, she told me some stories, and I learned -- but I learned it more from books and from outside of the school, you know?

CW:And you said you had a sense of your Jewish background, but you weren't quite sure -- did you -- what was sort of the general atmosphere or discussion of Jewish culture when you were growing up in Poland?

DL:In Poland there wasn't much talk, you know? For many, many years, it was a 55:00taboo, you know? And, as I said before, I remember some, you know, some people cursing, you know? In Poland, some people used the word żyd [Polish: Jewish man], żydowa as a pejorative, you know, word, yes? But it means nothing. It's just like, you know, they -- they just want to say something bad, you know, but -- and, yeah, I don't -- as I said, I had some experience -- it was -- at some points, I experienced anti-Semitism, but I think I realized what it was about many years later, you know? One thing that really scared me -- but I was already 56:00maybe twenty-four, twenty-five. I returned from the States and I worked in a gallery in Piwna Street. This is in the Old Town. And in order to lock the gallery, you had to -- that is, you had to push these buttons in this electronic code, you know? And it was already getting dark, and man behind me said, "Oh, miss, maybe you want to buy a book." And without turning around, I said, "Sorry, I have no money. I don't want to -- I'm not interested." And then I hear, "You? You don't have money? You Jews do not have money?" And I turned around, "What you are talking about?" And this was a man of about forty, and he started lecturing me about what Jews had done to Poland, you know? And, like, you know, that they are like a foreign body in Poland, that Poland should get rid of them. 57:00And it was really, really scary, because he said to me, "Name -- your name, please? Give me your name," you know? And this was -- it reminded me of the war times, you know? And I was really alone in the street. Now it's crowded in the evening, but it was in the early '90s. It was really empty. And, you know, I didn't know what to do, because I couldn't leave. I had to, you know, push those buttons to lock this -- you know, and my hand started shaking. And he also said something, "You know, you're an attractive woman, but I wouldn't even bother to touch you because you're -- you're Jew. You're a Jew," you know? And I remember that I returned home shaken, you know? I was really, really -- I was very, very scared.

CW:Yeah, wow. So, when -- I'm wondering if you had contact with Jewish community 58:00once you moved, once you emigrated to the US? I know you were with your mom, but --

DL:You know what? Not really, there -- I mean, yes, I became friends with some Jewish people and I think I already started reading about it. And I remember when I visited Poland during my studies, I bought the diary written by Adam Czerniaków, the -- who was the professors -- the head of the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw. And so -- and it was a very, you know, strong -- it shook me, yes, it was -- it really moved me to tears, and I started feeling, you know, that I 59:00wanted to know more, yes? But I really started to feel that -- my Jewish identity when I returned to Poland. And, as I said, I started playing in those films and really -- I could really identify with those people, yes?

CW:Yeah. So, how did you become interested in acting?

DL:(laughs) This is the only thing I could do. I don't know. You know, I sort of -- I -- for a year, I studied psychology, and I think these two are very connected, because I think a good psychologist, like -- psychologist can read -- can analyze, you know, your background, your -- can sense a lot of things and, 60:00you know, just -- doesn't just see you flat, but gets to the depths of your psyche, yes? And it's more of the same with acting. You get -- you just get dry lines and you have to breathe life into those characters. So, I like that. Yes, when I look at Regina, for example, I -- yeah, I sort of feel what she was like, you know, just by the look of her, on her face, by what she wrote. (laughs)

CW:Yeah.

DL:Yes, and --

CW:Can -- I'd like to talk about a couple of the -- these roles that you had as Jewish women. I mean, you had many, but was --

DL:Yeah, I had many, but you know what, the thing is that most of the time, these were the victims, the Holocaust victims, you know? And I would really like to play -- get role of a Jewish woman who is happy, full of life, who has a complicated character. I mean, there is a whole culture, you know? I think with the new museum in Poland, the Museum of the History of the Polish Jews, people will realize there is a -- one thousand of -- history behind the Holocaust. Because in Poland, when you think Jews, it's mostly connected -- I mean, it's mostly associated with the Holocaust, yes? So, you know, I hope that there will be films about happy Jewish women and, you know, roles that will help other 62:00people get familiar with the culture.

CW:Have you been involved in the museum or visited the museum?

DL:Yes, I have already been there a few times. And my friend Anja Rozenfeld works there. But also, I went to listen to a lecture about Ringelblum, the historian and archivist of the Warsaw Ghetto, and I was at the opening of the Jewish Motifs Film Festival, and when the mezuzah was placed. So, yes, yes, yes, I think there -- it has a very good aura, you know? It's an amazing building. And yes, it was a very -- it was very moving when I stepped inside and I felt 63:00life, you know, in the place that was full of death. I felt like there was some life revived in it, you know? Like, the souls of these people, the -- of the ancestors of those people who died are coming back and, you know, and they are happy.

CW:You've touched on this already, you just said a little bit, but I'm wondering if you can say more about what you hope the museum will do, will --

DL:Well, I think it will just show different aspects of the -- because it's about Polish Jews, yes? The specifics of the Polish Jews, yes? So, you know, the majority of Polish people do not know anything about the Haskalah movement, the -- even the Jewish holidays, you know? It's very, very different now. For 64:00example, when I watched Jola Dylewska's film "Polin," you know, you could see elderly people who remembered -- who were neighbors of the Jews, yes, in their communities and their villages. And to them, you know, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, they were familiar with those holidays, yes? They knew that you could get good bagels before Shabbat starts, and they -- some of them really made an effort to get it from Jewish women, because they make the best ones, yes? And today, people really don't know what it was like. They have very false concepts about it. And, of course, I think educating about the Holocaust is necessary, yes? But people should also be educated, be -- about other aspects of the 65:00history, yes? And there were different times between -- different turns of the relationship between Poles and the Jews. There were good times and there were bad times. There were pogroms, but there was then the kings who gave them -- who gave the Jews privileges, and also, you know, Jewish -- there were Jewish musicians, Jewish writers. Every child knew -- knows Julian Tuwim. But children do not realize he was Jewish, you know? And so, there was Berek Joselewicz who fought in the Kościuszko uprising. Very few people know about him, yes? But 66:00also, this -- I also want people to know about the specifics of the Jewish culture. And there are so many aspects of it, you know? There are synagogues, the way they dressed, the way their -- the people sang. Yes, that -- a whole beautiful culture that is -- that has to be rediscovered. So, I hope this will be the role of the -- of this Jewish museum. I actually -- recently, I had this incident when I had to take this -- somebody asked me to take care of a woman who's now in Warsaw, but she's somewhere from Silesia, okay? And she -- so, I took her, because it was the nineteenth of April, yes, the beginning of -- the anniversary of the beginning of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And when we are 67:00approaching the museum, she asked me, "Oh, and do you think the Museum of the Warsaw Uprising is also worth seeing? And I said, "Of course! But if -- just if you're interested in it, go ahead." And she said, "Of -- you know, I want to know -- get to know the Polish history, not only the Jewish history, yes? Like, I'm interested in the Polish history, as well, not only just the Jewish history, yes?" And I told her, "Listen, this is also part of the Polish history, yes?" And this is something that Regina was fighting for, that even though it's unique, it's a part of this constellation, and the rest of the population will only benefit from it. It's easy to be tolerant and accepting when you are the 68:00same. But you have to respect the distinctive features of another culture and -- you know, at -- I think it's only an enriching experience.

CW:How has learning about Regina changed your own identity or connection to Jewish culture?

DL:You know, I think that it's important, and I think this -- maybe it will also answer your previous question, that you can see that it was a very big variety of Jewish -- there is a big variety in the Jewish culture, yes, because -- before, I imagined it as a -- as very united and homogenous, you know? But 69:00reading about Regina and reading her articles, I can see that there were so many different tendencies, that there were ones who were assimilators and ones who viewed the Yiddish culture as a big treasure, yes? There were the Orthodox, there were secular people, and being Jewish can mean very different thing. And I learned it about -- from Regina, yes? And she had such an inquisitive mind. She really searched for her own truths, and this is really important for me as a woman of -- with a Jewish background and as a woman in general, yes? I think, 70:00you know, here in Poland, I don't really have a close family. So, thanks to Piotr Grącikowski, I regained a woman, a strong female who's my ancestor. And I really feel like she was talking to me and giving my -- giving me strength, yes? For many years, I raised a child on my own, and I didn't really have -- you know, a woman from my family being here, living close to me. So, it's very important, I can really say -- I mean, maybe it sounds -- (laughs) maybe it sounds silly, but I really draw some energy from her. And she shows me how to be strong and think independently. This is what I really value her for.

CW:It's wonderful. And you live here now and --

DL:Yes, I live here.

CW:-- and so, travel a lot.

DL:From time to time, I go to visit my mother and my youngest sister, who live in California. So, there are some other descendants of Regina Liliental, because altogether, my father has three daughters: myself, Joanna, who works at the Stanford University, and Claudia, who graduated from the psychology department. But she lives near Toronto and she'll be twenty-nine this year, and she's getting married in a year. And, yes, and my sister has two children, two boys. And I have one son, and he's an illustrator. He was born in the United States and he -- so he's -- he has an American citizenship and he graduated from 72:00California College of Arts, so -- (laughs)

CW:Wow. And I'm sure that other people ask you this, but what was your decision to live in Poland?

DL:I know, everybody asks me this. (laughter) You know, it was maybe -- I think it was initiated by, like, a personal turn in my life and -- but no, I think it was a good decision, you know? And part of it is that I really feel connected to the past. There's something about it that -- I am the only person from my family -- I mean, now with my son, of course -- who live here and who has this connection with the past. And being here, I learned a lot about it. I feel like I regained a part of an identity that was really missing and cut off by the war 73:00and also by the years in a -- under communism, when, you know, the Jewish question was a taboo.

CW:I just have a couple more questions, then we can break and --

DL:Okay.

CW:-- look at those. But I wonder -- you mentioned you're starting to learn some Yiddish.

DL:Yes. I can read a little bit for you. (laughs)

CW:Great! Yeah, do you want to -- you said you had some things you wanted to read?

DL:Ah, yes. I don't -- okay, but do you see -- so that people can see. But don't laugh at me, but I'm like a child who's learning, you know?

CW:That's okay.

DL:I know -- okay, so I will just read a little bit.

CW:Please.

DL:Okay, can I start?

CW:Yeah.

DL:Okay. Alef iz nisht beys [A is not B]. Kalt iz nisht heys [Cold is not hot]. 74:00Beys iz nisht giml [B is not G]. Erd iz nisht himl [Earth is not heaven].

CW:Great! (laughs)

DL:Okay.

CW:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much]. (laughter) I'm wondering what -- why -- what do you see as the place of Yiddish? Why do you want to learn it?

DL:To me, it's a great treasure. It's something that -- you know, it's the key to understand the Jewish culture, the -- part of the Polish culture. It's -- I would like to -- I need a private tutor, because I have such an uncoordinated schedule of my work that I cannot really go to regular classes, okay? But I have a few friends who are Yiddishists, and I already talked to them about this. And, you know, this is the language which can beautifully express thoughts and 75:00worries, all the emotions, yes? And I now, except for acting work and voiceovers and dubbing that I do, I also translate for the "Cwiszn" magazine. It's published by the Fundacja Shalom, the Shalom Foundation. And I think the girls are doing a wonderful job there, because they show that Jewish -- that Yiddish is still alive, and they show it in a new dimension. I think -- I discovered -- thanks to it, I discovered quite a few Yiddish poetesses that expressed themselves in this language, because for many years it was a language where women expressed themselves more than men. So, it has a special feminist -- 76:00feminine touch in it, yes? Feminist, too, maybe. But it sounds beautiful, and it's a shelter of -- where -- in which I would like to hide, you know? (laughs) I feel safe listening to it and I feel very moved when I listen to Yiddish. Sometimes, I have a chance to listen to people who speak Yiddish like, you know, like -- I mean, some of them are native speakers, because I've met some people who actually learned Yiddish from their parents, you know? But it's rather rare. Most of the people who speak Yiddish learned it through the -- through courses or studies. But I love listening to it and, I don't know, it's just important spiritually. It's very enriching to me.

CW:Great. Do you want to sing a Yiddish song?

DL:Mm, but -- okay --

CW:Do you want to get some water?

DL:Can I do it after a moment?

CW:Yeah, let's take a --

DL:Okay [UNCLEAR]

CW:Let's take a break. (laughter) But I just want to say, before we turn off the camera, a hartsikn dank, (laughter) thank you very much.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

DL:So, now I'm going to sing a song that's -- I can imagine my great grandmother, Regina, sang to my little grandpa. This song was published in 1901. It's called "Oyfn pripetshik [On the hearth]," I will just sing a fragment of it. And it's published in "Yidishe folkslider mit notn [Jewish folk songs with notes]." It's a song by Marek Varshavski. [BREAK IN RECORDING] (sings) “Oyfn pripetshik brent a fayerl,/un in shtub iz heys,/un der rebe lernt kleyne kinderlakh/dem alef-beys,/un der reber lernt kleyne kinderlakh/dem alef-beys./Zet zhe, kinderlakh, gedankt zhe, tayere,/vos ir lernt do,/zogt zhe nokh a mol, un take nokh a mol,/komets-alef, o!/Zogt zhe nokh a mol, un take nokh a mol,/komets-alef, o! [On the hearth burns a small fire,/and in the home it is warm,/and the rabbi is teaching little children/the alphabet,/and the rabbi is teaching little children/the alphabet./See, children, remember, dear ones/what you learn here,/repeat again and yet again,/komets-alef, oh!/Repeat again and yet again,/komets-alef, oh!]” Okay, this is it.

CW:Great! (laughs) Beautiful!

[END OF INTERVIEW]