JOANNA NALEWAJKO-KULIKOV ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:So, this is Christa Whitney. And today is May 1st, 2013. And I'm here in Warsaw, with --

JOANNA NALEWAJKO-KULIKOV:Joanna Nalewajko-Kulikov.

CW:And we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record this?

JNK:Yes.

CW:Thank you. So, just to start, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

JNK:Well, these are probably various different motifs. And, basically, as far as I know -- well, no, it will be somewhere, somewhat more complicated. My last name is Ukrainian, and Nalewajko is a very common Ukrainian name. And this -- 1:00family story is that my family came to Poland from Ukraine, probably somewhat during the nineteenth century. And they settled down in Warsaw. This is some -- the family on my father's side. They settled down in Warsaw. So, on my father's side -- to -- some generations back. I am -- I'm born and bred in Warsaw. My mother -- my mother's family comes from central Poland. So, basically, this is the story. These are Polish families. Well, as far as we can call the family coming from Ukraine being a Polish family. But, probably they were more like Polish gentry, probably. Whatever this means. And, yeah, so this is what, when it comes to family background -- and, as I said, my mother's from central Poland. My father is -- well, he was born in Gdansk after the war. But, he's 2:00very tied to Warsaw and basically, I consider myself born and bred Warsaw.

CW:And, you grew up here, in Warsaw?

JNK:Yeah. I grew up here in Warsaw. And here I finished all my education and also my studies, which were basically self-directed Jewish studies, in the framework of what was called `the interfaculty studies in the humanities. Or, in Polish, Międzywydziałowe Indywidualne Studia Humanistyczne. We were able to choose our particular path -- to choose our particular major, which isn't that -- which wasn't, at this time, that common in the Polish academia. And I choose the Jewish studies.

CW:So, when you were growing up, what was your exposure, if any, to Jewish people, Jewish culture?

JNK:Basically, next to none. Next to none. When I was a teenager, I was friends with a very -- with a very famous Polish writer for children, Danuta Wawiłow, who came herself from a Jewish family. And she, when she was younger, she taught herself Yiddish to some extent. And we were friends, and one day she gave me a book of poems of Itzik Manger, in the Polish translation, which was published in the 1970s in London. And she was like, "Well, have it and read it, because I am sure you will love him." And I read it, and I was very much impressed. And of course, the name of Itzik Manger did not ring any sort of bell for me, but I was very impressed. And then she told me, "Well, if you want to really appreciate him, if you really want to know what he writes about, you should teach yourself Yiddish. Because this is what I did." Because this is -- that was what -- this 4:00was what she did, years before. And she sent me to the Jewish Theatre, when -- where there was still courses into -- in Yiddish. There was basically a course in Yiddish for the actors, and there was also a course in Yiddish for everybody else. Not many people attended this. It was led by Professor Michał Friedman, who basically brought up the whole generation, I think, of today's Polish Yiddishists. And, it was, I would say, more like a heder [traditional religious school]-style, because we would just read from the 1950s class books, I mean handbooks, for Jewish schools. Yiddish handbooks. And we would just translate it. We wouldn't speak. So, anyway, I came and it felt like something totally different, and something totally -- I basically had no -- much idea about it. 5:00And I -- for the first year or so, when I attended this class -- we would meet every week, every Friday afternoon -- I was just sitting there, and I was just listening. And I was asking myself what the hell I was doing here. And I couldn't really figure out what I was doing there. And after a year, or maybe after two years, I don't remember exactly -- but was still when I was in my secondary school, so I was about seventeen or eighteen when I came to the Jewish Theatre. I thought that, well, it had no sense. I mean, either I would have to, well, get more involved -- or just to go away. So, I decided to get more involved and I started to really -- teach myself and asking questions, and asking more questions, and asking even more questions. And, well, basically, 6:00this is how we started, I think. I mean, it's, like --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, before we move on, can you tell me a little more about this class? What -- for -- to begin, where -- what did the room look like, where you took this class? In the theatre?

JNK:Once again? The last question, once again?

CW:What did the room look like, where you had this --

JNK:Oh, okay. Okay, I see. Okay, I see. Well, okay, so, it was a -- the class took place in the Jewish Theatre, in one -- in the -- of the rooms upstairs. And actually, until today, I mean, it's connected in my memory with this -- a very particular smell of, I don't know, all wooden furniture, maybe. Stuff like that. So, basically something pleasant and not something stinking. But it's just a particular smell. And whenever -- it is very rare these days that I go into the 7:00Jewish Theatre. But whenever I do, it smells the same, so it's like coming back to the past. And we were a very tiny group. Actually, the first group that I joined was slightly bigger, larger. And then it considerably shrank, right? And, I suppose, this is because of the -- Professor Friedman's method of teaching. As I had said, it was more like a heder. He didn't really got into grammar. He was, like, "Okay, just read and translate, read and translate." And I suppose that most people who are not very involved or, perhaps -- or whatever, who just thought that it would be cool to teach themselves some Yiddish -- and then they realized it wasn't that easy, at least at the very beginning -- so, usually they got disappointed and they would walk away. Because I saw the same pattern when 8:00-- next, I took a Hebrew class with him, so -- which was also similar. He would teach us the very basic grammar things. And then it was, "Okay, so now you've got everything, so just take the book and translate." So, whenever I read about the studies in the heder, I always think it must have been something like that. Because he was from the people who were saved by the heder. He came himself from Volhynia and he spoke in Volhynian Yiddish. But unfortunately, it was very rare that he really spoke to -- ourselves. So, the group which I attended -- there was me, there was one guy slightly younger than me, which means we were both teenagers still. There was one guy who was perhaps in his thirties or so, and there were two elder men in their sixties, seventies who were coming back to their roots or perhaps just refreshing what they had remembered from their 9:00family houses. So, that was basically our very informal setting, and it lasted three -- I don't really know how long. Maybe two or three years. Basically, every year, Professor Friedman would say that it was the last year that he's teaching, and then he would luckily restart next year. But, then, at a certain point, he really did make a break, and it was more or less when -- I was either in my last class of the last year of the secondary school, or it was already the beginning of the university. And I basically -- this is when he really made a break. And that was basically, for me, the end of the classes in the Jewish Theatre. So, then, the next time I had a touch with Yiddish was when I was in the first year of my university studies. At this time, there was no Yiddish 10:00class at the university. There had been before, but in this particular year, it wasn't available. But then, the Jewish Historical Institute co-organized, together with the YIVO, a Yiddish course -- a Yiddish summer course in Warsaw. Basically, it was for the employees of the Jewish Historical Institute, but also some other people like students, like graduate students -- were also encouraged to apply and to come. And there were two relatively large groups, the so-called advanced group, which consisted of people on very -- I mean, the level of language was very, very different from me -- up to, say, Bella Szwarcman-Czarnota, the -- on the other hand, for whom Yiddish is mame-loshn [mother tongue] so -- and so, you can imagine how different the level was. And the beginners' group, when the level was maybe even more differentiated, or 11:00maybe not. And it lasted for two months. The YIVO people came here. We were taught by Ellie Kalman and by Dovid Braun, yeah. And it lasted two months. And then they had the longer -- shall I go on, with the Yiddish story, or --

CW:Sure. Yeah, sure.

JNK:-- because, I have --

CW:And then I have other questions. But let's go on with this --

JNK:I sort of took the initiative, and --

CW:Yeah, of course.

JNK:That's -- it's only now that I --

CW:No, it's great. (laughs)

JNK:-- realize that maybe you would like to ask something! (laughs)

CW:No, I'll ask later.

JNK:Okay. So, then, they had this slightly longer break, because basically my major in the studies, in the university, were the Hebrew studies, yeah. So, I sort of skipped Yiddish, and focused on Hebrew. And then, I came back to Yiddish only when -- more or less, yeah -- when I already started working on my PhD. So, 12:00maybe I will make a break here. (laughter)

CW:Okay. I'm curious, what languages were you exposed to, growing up?

JNK:Oh, okay. Basically, only to Polish, although, well -- basically, only to Polish, although my mother spoke Russian very well, and my father spoke German very well. So, sometimes it happened that they would, for their job -- but it wasn't something used on a daily basis. But so, sometimes in their job they would use it. And then I had Russian -- the elementary school, as everybody else did at this time, which meant, starting from the age of eleven, if I'm correct, to the end of the primary school. Then, my secondary school was a different -- totally different story, because at this time, when I entered in a secondary school, which was in 1991, they organized in Poland so-called bilingual classes. 13:00Bilingual classes in French for those who did not speak French. They lasted -- they were like five-year classes instead of four -- of regular four-year secondary schools. The first year was totally devoted to -- just to studying French. And then, starting from the second year, we would have most of the school subjects, if not all, taught in French. So, then, it was French. And also, I had -- I was taking English and English lessons since I was, I don't know, ten or something, probably. We had some English in the primary school, but it was an optional class, and not very well taught, from what I remember. And then, together with a friend -- we attended private lesson given by someone. And 14:00this continued until my maturity exam, which means I -- teachers would change, but there were still English private lessons, basically. I think that everybody in my generation would take private English lessons. So, basically, when I started Yiddish, I had some background in French, I had some background in Russian. Well, hardly any, because I didn't really remember much. It was only later that I learned Russian again, re-learned Russian, maybe I should say like that. And the most, probably, influential -- probably linguistic background at this point was French, because, even when I started Hebrew slightly later than Yiddish -- but still, in the Jewish Theatre with Professor Friedman. I had a 15:00very strong French accent in Hebrew. And actually, until today, I've got a French accent in Hebrew.

CW:Okay, can you just move your scarf a little? Yeah.

JNK:Yeah, okay.

CW:Yeah, there we go. Perfect. Okay, so, was -- what -- I know it was a little tentative at first. You weren't sure -- at one point, you decided, "Either I'll go into this, or I'll -- not." So, what was your -- what were your first thoughts on sort of reading Manger and then starting to be exposed to this Jewish culture?

JNK:It's probably strange to say, but I don't really remember much. I mean, I just remember the feeling of -- I remember the feeling of being at the edge of something totally new and something totally different. And I remember -- 16:00although it will probably sound very stupid, but I remember coming back one day from the Jewish Theatre when I was at the edge of basically giving it up, and the thought that if I go into that, it will sort of change my life totally. It sounds very dramatic, of course. It wasn't as dramatic. But going into a totally different culture, totally different world, discovering a totally different world, and -- but then, on the other hand, it came as something, I would say, more or less natural. I mean it was -- once I was there, it was like it had always been there and it had been waiting for me to discover it. And so, something like that. So, I don't remember, for example, wondering whether, okay, 17:00what I will do with that and it doesn't have a -- it doesn't make any sense or something like that. No, it was, okay, so I'm here and it's mine, in a way, and -- because why should -- why shouldn't it be? And, so -- and okay. And I'm here and I'm doing this, and I'm doing this because I -- because it's fun for me. And I like it, and I enjoy it. And it's something that is totally different. It's something exotic. Probably -- there was something exotic, also, about this. But then, when I'm trying just to -- I just don't -- I don't remember anything special, like being talked about -- Jewish, in my family home. But, on the other hand, it was also sort of a natural thing, I would say. I mean, it wasn't -- my 18:00feeling is that when I was a kid, if I remember correctly, I just thought, okay, some people are Jewish, so what? It wasn't something extraordinary or something like -- okay, so, it's strange or it's terrifying or it's awful or whatever. No, it just was some people are Jews, some are not. Some people are blonde, some are not, right? I mean, it was this way of thinking. I would have probably been more impressed if someone were, I don't know, American or Frenchman or something. That would be something. That would be something! (laughter) But not about someone being Jewish. Okay, so what? So, on one hand, it was something definitely new and exotic and strange. On the other hand, it was like, I don't know, just felt normal.

CW:Was there any reaction -- positive, negative -- from your family and 19:00community when you first started working?

JNK:No, not really. I mean, probably they were -- I think they were sort of surprised, because it wasn't a common thing to do. My mother only later told me that, "You know, when you told us you were going to take a Yiddish class, I had no idea what Yiddish was, at all." Apparently, my father didn't know -- my mother said she had no idea. But, I was never discouraged. I was never criticized -- or, at least, I don't remember that. Basically, I suppose my parents realized that I did like studying languages. And moreover, it was something that I was relatively good at. So, it was probably, you know, if I had taken Chinese, they would have probably reacted more or less the same, right? I mean, "It's something exotic, okay. But, if she enjoys it, then why not?" So, 20:00yeah, sometimes I -- or neither from my grandparents, for example. My grandparents seemed very favorable, and actually I would say even -- well, maybe surprised or something. But basically, I don't remember, really --

CW:Yeah. Do you mind sharing just what the careers in your family -- your parents' and grandparents' generation were?

JNK:My parents are both from what is called, in Polish, inteligencja pracująca, working intelligentsia. So, basically people working in the -- they're both engineers, by profession. And my grandparents, on my paternal side, were both -- I'm looking for an English word. Well, my grandmother was an architect. And basically, my grandfather was also a -- not maybe in architecture, per se, but 21:00-- in building things, but -- not -- how do you call this? Well, it's something between engineer and architect, let's say like that, because I --

CW:Civil engineer, maybe?

JNK:Maybe, because -- I'm not sure. Because he -- when I'm saying he was into construction, he wasn't literally building things, right? (laughter) He was planning to build them. But I'm not sure whether he was formally an architect. Maybe. Maybe he was, because actually, they met -- with my grandmother when they were studying. So, perhaps he was also an architect by profession. And on my mother's side, my grandfather was in the -- how should I call it? Milk industry, probably. He was directing a milk factory or -- sounds strange translating this into English, actually, I don't know. And my grandmother would work as a bookkeeper for years, and then she was just at home. So, yeah, so this is what 22:00it looks like.

CW:And I'm curious about sort of the relation between your Hebrew studies and your Yiddish studies. And maybe I'll ask, sort of, what topics were you studying that got you into these languages? Or was it through the languages that you got into the topics?

JNK:It was maybe through the languages, I'm just thinking right now. Basically, in the Hebrew -- the Hebrew studies today seem to be at a much higher level than they used to be, when I was a student, which is definitely a thing to be joyful about. Basically, it was -- well, let's put it like that. This interfaculty 23:00studies -- were different in this from other majors at the university -- that you were able to choose your particular subjects to follow, particular classes to attend. But then, you were required to prepare your MA thesis somewhere. So, like, going -- following the requirements of the particular institute or the particular faculty. So, I choose the Hebrew department as the -- being the -- sort of, my major. And then I also added other classes taught in other departments -- for example, in the department of Polish literature, in the historical department, and so on and so forth. And altogether, it sort of made such a -- something which you would call a major in Jewish Studies, more or 24:00less. I'm just trying to compare it more or less to the American university. Because it works slightly different here. And there was a point where I basically forgot my Yiddish, and I was mostly focused on Hebrew -- which was sort of natural, because, at this time -- well, later, we were -- there was a possibility, also, to study Yiddish at the university. And actually, I was also a -- in a class taught by Ewa Geller which actually happened to be in the German department. So, one more department to add to this long list. And this was something which was very interesting, because she worked with us on various kinds of texts, which was like -- dialects and also working with us on handwritten texts from the -- Ringelblum's archive, when we're trying to translate. So, that was a very valuable introduction into actually working with 25:00Yiddish. I mean, not just the -- reading something from the belles lettres and trying to translate it, but also working with Yiddish which is maybe not in standard Yiddish. And this is something I appreciate very much, and which very much came in handy later. And -- I've got a feeling I haven't really answered your question.

CW:Oh.

JNK:You were asking about something slightly different.

CW:Well, which were the -- were you coming -- which subjects were you coming to, through the language? Linguistic or --

JNK:Oh, okay.

CW:-- you know?

JNK:No, it was mostly -- no, the point was that, basically -- when I was deciding about what to do with -- in the university, I was always hesitating between three disciplines, if I can say so -- between literature, languages, and 26:00history. All of them interested me, but no one to the extent of devoting myself totally to one of them. And basically, Jewish Studies had this great advantagement [sic] that I could use all three of them, basic -- more or less on the same level. So, I could get involved into all of them, but not devoting myself totally to -- not choosing only one of them. So, I was mostly into Jewish history, Jewish linguistics -- well, to some extent, because, well, the Hebrew department sort of made it obvious. Jewish literature, also, but, I would say, in a historical perspective. For example, I was attending Jacek Leociak's classes in the Department of Polish Literature. He would have a class on the writings from the Warsaw Ghetto, or analyzing various texts on the Holocaust, 27:00stuff like that. So, it was literature -- but it wasn't -- it was, for me, more connected to history. And basically, I decided pretty soon that my thesis will be in Jewish history, per se. And I attended MA workshop, which was led by Professor Jerzy Tomaszewski in the Institute of History. He had a workshop, or rather, an MA seminar, devoted to history of Jews in Poland in the twentieth century. And I was reading various -- and I was supposed to write something, which was called the annual work, a written work for -- every year we had to submit a written work on a topic that we would have chosen ourselves. And I was, by then, reading -- I don't really know why, but I was reading many memoirs on the Holocaust, many -- and my idea was to write about the Aryan side in Warsaw. 28:00And I prepared a whole -- the whole -- forgot the English word -- abstract. Okay, let's say abstract. And I presented that at one of the seminars, and it was supposed to be this written work for the first year of studies at the university. And I presented this to Professor Tomaszewski and he would listen and he would listen, and then, he was, like, "Okay. You know what? This is a very good abstract for your MA thesis." So, basically, afterwards, I was always laughing that I decided already about my MA thesis when I have just started the university, because it was indeed more or less like this. And then I spent the next five years in the university just collecting materials for this MA thesis. So, that was very -- basically, I am -- that was a very good thing to do, because I had enough time to think about the topic. I had enough time to collect 29:00the materials, to read -- because it consisted basically of published memoirs. And, yes -- so, basically, I started to lean towards history, towards Jewish history. But what I like, especially, about Jewish history always is that it's -- to me, it is very much connected up with Jewish languages. I think -- well, you can, of course, use only one language to read your sources in, but it's -- but what for, I would say. It's much more fun to use more than one language, and the more I am into it, the more I am tempted by the subject itself, of Jewish multilingualism. Perhaps I will write something more on that. But yes, so, 30:00basically to -- during my studies I was more and more leaning towards history, towards Jewish history. And, at the end of university, I decided I would like to pursue a career in history, for a degree in history, in particular, for the -- doing Jewish history, and to use both Hebrew and Yiddish for that.

CW:Were there other people -- other students -- who were studying similar topics with you, at that time?

JNK:Yes, basically, this MA seminar lead by Professor Tomaszewski always had some success among the students. Already at this time, there was the Centrum Anielewicza at the Warsaw University, which taught various classes on Jewish topics. So, it was more or less -- it was becoming popular, maybe I should say 31:00like that. It was slowly becoming popular. Maybe wasn't as popular as now, when you've got Jewish department almost everywhere and really, lots of Jewish lectures and classes and concerts and whatnot. It wasn't as much then, but there was already plenty of things that one can do, one could do if one really wanted to. There were also a class in two days which was led by Michael Schudrich in the Warsaw Jewish community, which is basically open to any -- to everyone. So, I was -- also go there and listen to him.

And basically, I always had the feeling that the Jewish studies at the university should be more connected to the Jewish community, as such, that -- 32:00for example, in my Hebrew class, in the Hebrew department, once during a class in Biblical Hebrew, the teacher asked, "Who has read the whole Old Testament," and there were two hands only. One was mine, and another one was of a friend of mine, who was defining herself as an Orthodox Jew, as an Orthodox Jewish woman, by this time. And then the question was, "Okay. So, who has read the whole New Testament?" And we were, again, the only two of us, me and she, who has ever done it. So, my feeling was that these Jewish studies are sort of too separate from the Jewish life as such, that -- of course, it's cool to learn what Pesach is about, but it would be even cooler to go to a seder and see what it's like, right? And this is something which I -- which sort of got -- gets on my nerves 33:00until today, when people seem to -- not go deeper, I mean, that they would read books and they would know everything about -- I don't know, decoration of the synagogue, for example. And then, they would actually never go into a real synagogue for a service, right? They would visit it, when it's a monument, but somehow it never comes to their head to go for a -- into a synagogue for a service. But this is something that has been changing lately. This is my feeling, that it's more -- there's more connection between the Jewish community and the Jewish academic institutions, also including the Jewish Historical Institute, and I think it's a good change. It's a good change.

CW:For you, personally, have you gone -- have you celebrated the yontoyvim 34:00[holidays] with the Jewish community? What's your connection with this, what you've been talking about, the [UNCLEAR].

JNK:Yes. A lot of this -- as a student, I would -- I was coming to the Jewish community. I would come for seder Pesach, I would come for Yom Kippur to the synagogue. It doesn't, as strange as it sounds -- but it doesn't, somehow, interfere with my own religious beliefs, which is Protestant Reformed. And to me, these are two things that sort of complete themselves, but who can also exist independently, one from another. I mean, I don't have the feeling -- I don't -- I never felt, for example, the need to go to join a Christian seder. I mean, a seder is a seder, a seder is a Jewish thing and I -- my husband is of Jewish origin, we've got seder at home, and I don't feel like I -- just because, 35:00me, I'm Christian, I don't feel like I need to go to a Christian seder. I don't feel the need to include Jesus in that. Absolutely, doesn't -- it doesn't disturb me. And, until today, I go -- I usually go for the Kol Nidre [Aramaic prayer recited on the eve of Yom Kippur], as strange as it sounds, but I like this service very much, and I always stay until the very end. And, what else? Sometimes we go together with our son to some of the -- some Jewish festivals, but not very often, to be honest. Not very often, mostly because it's a block of time, it's not -- it's probably mostly that. So, yes. So, I would go -- and I 36:00was going, actually, later, even, right after I finished -- when I was finishing my university studies, I was even working for the Polish Union of Jewish Students. I was the office manager, although the office was very tiny. And so, I was working there. And also, for some time, I was teaching the Sunday school of the JDS. JDS in Warsaw used to have a Sunday school for some time. There is still some sort of a Sunday school, as far as I know, and I would teach Hebrew there, so, yes.

CW:Wow. (laughs) Great. So --

JNK:Pretty strange, I know. It is all very -- (laughter)

CW:No, I'm -- that's great.

JNK:Doesn't make much sense, probably, (laughter) altogether, but --

CW:Well, how does it -- but, it makes sense to you.

JNK:Yeah. It does. It does.

CW:Yeah. Have there been -- you've mentioned some -- many names of professors, 37:00and teachers along the way. Have there been any particular mentors that were particularly meaningful or important?

JNK:Well, definitely, it would be, then -- in the time of my university studies, it would be Professor Jerzy Tomaszewski, definitely. And then, when I finished the studies and I wanted to go for a doctoral program, I wasn't accepted in the Warsaw University, and rightly so. It wasn't for any -- it wasn't connected to my Jewish topics. It was connected to the -- liking the methodology of historical studies, which I know now that it was. I didn't know this at this point. And, also -- well, anyway. And then, I applied for a doctoral program in 38:00my today's institute, which is the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. And basically, I didn't know anyone there. And it was just like, okay, I will go and I will try, because I've got nothing to lose. So, I went, and -- they sort of gave me, under a guidance, under tutorship, to Professor Jerzy Borejsza. And he's my mentor, actually, until today. So, he was the supervisor of my PhD thesis. He taught me -- he told me from the very beginning, that, well, he's got no idea about Yiddish, he's got no idea about Hebrew or about any Jewish things, although his grandfather was the -- one of the founders of the "Haynt Daily," and he kept telling me things about "Haynt" and kept telling all the time that I should work on "Haynt" and somebody should write a book on 39:00"Haynt," and I choose another topic. I wanted to write about the post-war period, and this time, this post-war period wasn't as much researched as it is now. And I wanted to connect it to, somehow, to Yiddish and to Hebrew -- so, to use both languages. And, basically, I decided -- at first, I wanted to write a history of the post-war association of Jewish writers. And then, I realized there is an article already about it, and basically there's enough material for one article, but not for the whole PhD dissertation. And then, my -- then I had the idea to write about the whole -- this whole society of -- milieu of Jewish writers in post-war Poland. But it was a huge topic, a very huge topic, and Professor Borejsza suggested that I would just choose one of them and write his 40:00biography. And I chose David Sfard mostly because I knew that he had published his memoirs, so they will be something to refer to. And I also know there was some family of his living in Israel, so I was hoping they would agree to meet and to talk about him and to remember him. And this is how I started to write about David Sfard, and then this turned into a very, I would say, interesting adventure, discovering the Jewish communists. And basically, Jewish communists who considered themselves -- always considered themselves communists and who always considered themselves Jewish. Because in Poland, until very recently, there was -- very often, people would repeat a sentence by a Polish Jewish writer, Julian Stryjkowski, that, "A Jew who is a communist ceases being a Jew," that you might be either a communist or Jewish, that it was mutually excluding 41:00themselves. And then, I discovered, in the case of Sfard, of other Jewish communists, that actually, one could be both Jewish, both communist, and Yiddish-speaking to that, and that one could really invent some sort of vision of the world in which Jews would be like full-fledged citizens, speaking their own language and having their own culture, which, of course, was a utopian world and (laughs) it never really succeeded, although it came into being for some time. And I started to write my PhD about David Sfard, and Professor Borejsza always would repeat that, actually, I could write whatever I wanted because he spoke no Yiddish and no Hebrew, so he could not -- he couldn't really verify my sources. So, he was, like, "Okay, I know that you have invented this guy for 42:00yourself. I know that he's never existed, but okay. If you want to write about someone who did not existed, it's your problem." And, yes -- and basically, we -- I mean, I remember this doctoral program very fondly. And it resulted in a book that I'm really fond of, which is "Obywatel jidyszlandu [Citizen of Yiddishland]," which is my dissertation. Even before that, Professor Borejsza encouraged me to publish my master's thesis, which was about the Aryan side of Warsaw, which came out as " Strategie przetrwania," "The Strategies of Survival." And then, he also -- he's basically also responsible for the topic that I'm working -- that I have been working on for the last few years. In 43:00Poland, after the PhD, we've got something which is called habilitacja, which is like a post-doctoral thesis. And I was looking for a topic of this post-doctoral thesis, and I was considering various things. I wanted to -- I was already fed up -- after my master's thesis, I was fed up with the Holocaust. After the -- my PhD thesis, I was fed up with the Jewish communists of the post-war period, so I wanted to move earlier, to the inter-war period and maybe even earlier. And I was looking for a topic, and we were preparing -- we had an idea to prepare a book which would be dedicated to Professor Borejsza, like a gift from his youngest disciples. And I thought, Okay, so I will write something about his grandfather that he is very proud of, although he never knew him because Avrom 44:00Goldberg passed away before the war, yet -- so, I thought, Okay, so I will write an article about Avrom Goldberg as being the founder of the "Haynt" and so on, and so forth. And I started to look for materials, and it turned out it would have required a really huge research in the archives to write something more than just an entry for an encyclopedia. So, I thought, okay, so, I will write something about "Haynt," as such. So, I started to look out for materials on "Haynt," and it turned out that there is only this monograph by Chaim Finkelstein, which you probably know because we just put online, also, in the English translation, some time ago. At this time, this English translation did not exist yet. And it turned out that, in terms of monographs, this is the only thing that exists. There isn't anything else. So, I thought, Okay, so I will 45:00read some of the "Haynt" and I will write something from what I read and everything. And I started to read "Haynt," and it turned out that this is really fascinating. I started to read with the very first issue they published, in 1908. The Jewish Historical Institute has some issues from 1908. And I started to read, and it was like, wow. This is really something, this is a life source, really. I mean, it's -- and it was also something totally different from this post-war sources that I was accustomed to read when I was working on Sfard.

CW:What was interesting?

JNK:It was alive. I know it sounds strange, but it was -- you would just open these old issues, which are more, like, one hundred years old now, right? And 46:00they were both in articles and short stories. And announcements. And it's just alive. It's the Jewish life, which is captured in a moment. And I know that, also, other colleagues of mine who have been working on Jewish press from before the war had a similar impression, that here we are, delving into the archives, looking for some tiny scraps of something. And here, we've got the whole volumes of Jewish press, and the life is there. Because you keep reading -- it's -- "Haynt" was a daily, so you keep reading from one day to another. You sort of see the -- it's like the film, you know? You see it moving, actually. So, that 47:00was really fascinating. And I thought, Well, okay, so basically, I've got my subject. So, it's Professor Borejsza who is basically responsible for the fact that I am working, now, on "Haynt," because I was -- then I told him, or I called him, I don't remember, and I was, like, "You know what? I'm writing on 'Haynt.' I mean, you've persuaded me to do it and I've got no choice." So, this is my current topic. And, of course, what is so fascinating about Jewish press is also its biggest, I would say, curse, because it's life, so it means it's -- it's lots, yeah? It's lots of everything. And, actually, it's -- I think it's really impossible to read through all of that especially in case of "Haynt," 48:00which kept appearing for thirty-one years in a row. So, actually, you're lost. (laughs) Lost in the Jewish press. And, of course, what I am writing will include only some -- in fact, some tiny scraps of that. But, yeah, basically, I'm very grateful to Professor Borejsza that he has persuaded me, so to speak, to write about "Haynt," because he kept talking about this so long and so long, and it got so boring, (laughter) that finally, I just had to do something about it.

CW: Did you ever come across specific issue, article that stood out among all of these -- every day, for thirty years? (laughs)

JNK:You know, first of all, I haven't done all of that yet, because it takes 49:00time. And it takes enormous amounts of time. Now it's slightly better, because the Hebrew University has digitalized it.

CW:Right.

JNK:So, it's accessible online, which means it's accessible almost everywhere. But still, it's -- it takes time. Even when I've got it photographed on my own computer and I can read it at home, sometimes the quality of the -- not even of the photo, but of the printing itself, it's -- it is something that you simply need time to do. So, I still haven't finished. So far, I'm more or less finished with the very first period of "Haynt"'s existence, which is until the First World War, starting in 1908 -- starting even slightly earlier, because "Haynt" appeared in the consequences of the Revolution of 1905, which allowed Jews to 50:00publish press in Yiddish. And what is funny about this early story of Yiddish press is that it was -- everybody hated it. I mean, on one hand, everybody read it, of cour-- I mean, everybody, those for whom Yiddish was their vernacular. On the other hand, everybody seemed to hate it, because -- well, the Hebrew speakers hated it because it was Yiddish. The Polish speakers, Jewish or non-Jewish, hated it because it was Yiddish, so it was jargon, so it was -- it was jargon, and the biggest problem was that you didn't really know what they were telling people, writing in Yiddish, right? Because Polish speakers could not read it. So actually, you don't really know what they are telling these Jews, using this script. And some, actually, of the -- people who used Yiddish 51:00at this time, some of the Yiddish authors, they also had -- they weren't particularly sure whether they should be happy or not. I mean, on the one hand, yes, I mean, it's in Yiddish. On the -- on another hand, it's like the yellow press. These are -- it was -- it really was the tabloid level. So, the Yiddish masses are getting something very tabloid-like. Interestingly enough, it was Peretz himself who was actually in defense of the Yiddish yellow press. So, this is -- basically, this is -- so, maybe not a particular article, but the whole attitude of that, when this is both -- and especially "Haynt" was sort of -- became a symbol of all that was the worst in the Yiddish press, before the First 52:00World War -- partially, also, because of Shmuel Yankev Yatskan, who was its main founder and who was really a very controversial figure indeed. So, people would hate Yatskan, and then they would also hate "Haynt." But still, this level of hate towards -- it's -- coming basically from all the sides is very interesting. And what sort of stands apart is that -- in my feeling, there was some sort of a social revolution, which was that the appearance of Yiddish press was a sign of a -- some sort of a social revolution. And probably the fact that the revolution was -- that the revolution has succeeded is that when -- in 1912, there were the famous elections to the Russian State Duma, the assimilationists -- they also 53:00started to publish a daily in Yiddish in order to somehow -- to get to these Jewish masses, because they already realized there was no other way, because the masses would read Yiddish. So, this is a very interesting period in the history of the Yiddish and Jewish press. And, so I would say it's not particular article, but rather the whole atmosphere, the whole ambiance, I would say in French, that is like, around it.

CW:Definitely. You've talked -- you've mentioned this, just in passing, but I'm wondering how, if at all, your academic interests and your personal life connect, intersect, if you want to say anything about that?

JNK:Just wondering how they connect, I don't know. I mean, I -- my academic life is a part of my personal life, I would say. I wouldn't maybe make a strong division between them. Although, for example, it would -- it never actually came to my mind to teach Yiddish to my son. I know that, theoretically, I could. And probably, theoretically, it would be fun. But then, my feeling is it would be already too many languages at the same time. 'Cause, you see, he's bilingual. His father speaks to him in Russian, so he's Polish-Russian. He's got Israeli 55:00citizenship, which means at a certain point we'll have to involve Hebrew, because it will be nice if he would be able to say something in Hebrew, as well. And then, English is today's lingua franca. So, this means four languages that seem to be obligatory from the very beginning. And adding Yiddish to that just seems like complicating his life slightly too much. So, this is something that I don't feel that I -- that probably, he will sort of get used to it, because anyway, there are Yiddish books at home and stuff like that. But I know that there are people in -- also in Poland -- who would like to speak Yiddish to their children, which is something which I very much appreciate, but it never came to me that I could do the same, probably because I don't -- I think I 56:00couldn't, that is, simply speak to him in any other language than Polish, because I feel very much that one should speak the language that one feel the most at ease in. So, I wouldn't speak to him in French neither, nor in any other language, nor in English -- although I feel relatively at ease in English, but it's still -- it's not my language. I cannot express everything I would like in English. So, Polish seems to be the only option for me, anyway. And I suppose it would be the same if we had lived, I don't know, in Israel or in the States, or everybody -- anywhere else. And so, I suppose I would speak Polish to him anyway. But if he's older, if he's interested, I suppose it would be fun if he 57:00learned some of the Yiddish. But this is, I suppose, a long story to come, (laughter) taking into account he's only five right now. And basically, what else? Well, to me, it's sort of difficult to make a barrier between my personal life and my academic life. The point is that I'm -- I enjoy very much what I am doing, academically. This is basically something I always wanted to do. I always was interested in history, I always liked languages. I always liked literature, to some degree. But I never wanted to do just one of these things. So, I remember that when I was in my secondary school, I was considering various careers for myself and I was wondering whether to be a writer, whether to be translator, or whether to be, I don't know. It was something between all of 58:00these. And actually, the idea of the academic career, as such -- that is, going into a doctoral program -- it appeared only until the end of my studies. I suppose it was suggested by someone, probably by Professor Tomaszewski, I suppose. And, basically what I'm doing, this is just this perfect thing for me. I mean, I get to work with languages. I get to work with history. I write, which is something I enjoy -- although, of course, at a certain point, when you write too much, you start hating this, and especially when you write for money, you hate it. You hate it double, probably. But, yes, so in many ways it's -- it's not something I do until, I don't know, four p.m. and then I lock the door and I'm doing a different thing. This is something I really enjoy doing, probably to 59:00the point that, actually, after I had my son, I had to teach myself how to take a rest. I mean, how not to spend all of my time on working, because I also had to spend some of my time on him. And then, it turned out that there was no time for resting, already. So, it's like that. So, it's very much intermingled.

CW:Yeah.

JNK:Intermingled? Can you say so?

CW:Yeah! Yep.

JNK:Okay.

CW:I want to go back -- there are just a few more topics I want to touch on. But going back to your mentors, I wonder: can you just describe these two mentors, sort of, how they are as people and professors?

JNK:Okay, so [UNCLEAR] Professor Tomaszewski, okay, I -- it will be slightly censored, because I can't say -- (laughter)

CW:Okay.

JNK:-- everything I -- thinking about. So, Professor Tomaszewski was a very -- 60:00was, he still is alive, biz hundert un tsvantsik [may he live to 120] -- he's a very delicate, a very mild man. A man that, basically, very -- just looking for the right word in Polish, which probably has a -- well, which certainly has its advantages. But I suppose it may also have disadvantages. I suppose, if one -- if you know what you want and you just want a mentor to discuss your problems once in a time with him, then he's a perfect guide and a perfect tutor. He was my personal tutor when -- for the four years when I was in the university. But then, I basically knew what I was doing. So, I did not need -- I didn't really 61:00need much guidance, I suppose. So, I remember him from this time very fondly as someone who basically let me do my job and who was there when I asked him for some help, but who did not insist on me taking a constant, specific approach to something. Although I suppose that I would have probably -- if I had followed some of his suggestions, it would have probably been better. I mean, in the terms of going more into the Polish background, the Polish context of Jewish history. But then, he was mostly used -- to work with students of Polish history, for whom this background was natural. And here I came from the Hebrew 62:00department, so my academic background was slightly different. So, I suppose that some things that were obvious to him probably were not obvious to me, which is normal. And with Professor Borejsza, we've got, I dare say, a very nice relation until today. And he was probably -- he was, he probably is, more of a mentor in the sense of discussing various things with him and asking him for advice in various questions, and not only academic. He's basically more, how should I say, looking for the right way to describe it. Basically, he's very much into the 63:00lives of his students, of his PhD students, always helping, also on the, I would say, personal level. If me or someone of my colleagues had some, I don't know, family problems, life problems, I don't know, marriage problems, (laughter) money problems or anything like that, we all know we can come to him and talk about -- him, and he will try to give us an advice, to help us or to find someone else to help us. So, this is what makes him very -- well, I suppose unique in many ways. I'm not sure it's a very common trait among PhD 64:00supervisors. Probably, also, not every graduate student would wish his supervisor to be that caring. But I always appreciated that. And from him, what I think -- I would like to say that I taught myself -- is, I suppose, the approach to historical work, per se, like trying to be objective as possible. Trying to discover what it was really like, not in order to fit to some idea or ideology or whatever, but just because it's curious in itself. And this is something which I like. I mean, I like changing topics. I -- I'm basically, as you see, I have come from the Aryan side, so the -- which is a Holocaust topic, 65:00to the mostly post-war topic, and then back to the, well, beginning of the twentieth century. So, I'm not one of these scholars who always focus on one topic, like the Holocaust, and who really get into this and really study details -- which is a kind of devotion which I really admire, but I also don't understand (laughs). Because personally, I would have been bored. So, basically, to me, it's like finding some question to myself or finding a question which I would like to have answered. And if I can't find the answer -- is something which exists already, I start to dig into this myself. So, this is what I'm doing about the Jewish press right now, the Yiddish press. It's like digging and finding the answer about what this press was really about. I mean, what did it serve, what was the purpose? What was behind it? And I think that it had -- it 66:00played a huge role into constructing the Jewish nation as such, and maybe even the crucial role. But, we shall see. So, I should like to think that this is what Professor Borejsza told -- taught me, that as a historian, I should try to be objective, that I should, sort of, look for more, not just be content with any single answer that I find, but basically just to dig into more, look for more. And also, to understand the motives of my heroes. This is what came out, when I was writing about Sfard, who was Jewish, and who was a communist. And 67:00this is what he was basically teaching me, that I should try to understand him. Not to justify him, not to condemn him, or anything, but to try to understand the background that Sfard came from and how it influenced him and whether he had some other choice or not, and if he had, what kind of choices these were? So, basically, this is something that I'm trying always to do, if possible. Not to justify, not to condemn, but rather to understand, which is -- sometimes, okay, it is very difficult, and I'm pretty sure that sometimes I fail. Maybe even most of the cases, I don't know, really. (laughs) But, yes, so, this is this, I suppose. Just trying -- you know, I'm just -- because Aga told me that it will be put online. So, I just (laugher) feel so sort of limited, speaking about the 68:00people who are still alive, because, it's -- they can listen to it. So, (laughs) it's not even like, okay, I won't be telling bad things about them. But it's also -- like, okay, if I tell only good things about them, it might sound as if I am, you know --

CW:It's okay.

JNK:You know what I mean? (laughs)

CW:I know what you mean. It's okay. So, I'm curious about what -- you said, earlier, when you were just getting into the field, that there were some students but now, there seems to be a lot more. Can you talk about that? Sort of -- do you have any sense of what's happened that's allowed this to grow? Interest in Jewish topics, that is?

JNK:Well, the Jewish topics as such has become, in my opinion, pretty popular. Although, probably, it depends on the milieu. My experience is with the Warsaw 69:00academic intelligent milieu, so it -- which -- not necessarily is the same as a milieu in some small town somewhere. So, it might be -- it is surely biased, in a way, right? My feeling is that -- I might be wrong, of course, but my feeling is that you might be actually reaching the point in which it will be sort of too much. Because, after all, sometimes, I've got these kind of thoughts that -- on one hand, it is -- on one hand, I'm very happy that, after so many years, there is now some sort of a choice, in Poland, also when it comes to Jewish studies -- that there are various Jewish institutions -- not only the Jewish Historical Institute, which was like the principle and the only address for many years. And 70:00it's very good that it was such an address and that it preserved what it preserved. But I suppose that some concurrence, some -- concurrence? You say so? Some --

CW:Collaboration, maybe, or --

JNK:Cooperation --

CW:Cooperation.

JNK:No, I would say, probably, rather, a fan of possibilities. Cafeteria of possibilities, I suppose. In sociology, they say cafeteria, cafeteria of options. And I suppose it's good, because it requires from the participants -- to work on their level, to work on their competencies. Before everything changed -- so, before '89, basically, whatever one could do in the Jewish topic was 71:00welcome, because there wasn't as many possibilities as now to go abroad, to study abroad, to go for a Yiddish summer course, to -- even to buy books, right, that one needed for the work. So, today, we've got all these other possibilities. And what is particularly good is that more and more people, as I hear from people who teach students, because I don't teach personally -- but my colleagues who have students say it's more and more and more obvious for them that, for the students, I mean, that they should learn at least one of the Jewish languages, at least -- either Hebrew or Yiddish, if not the two. Because just working on Polish-language sources -- it's more or less coming to an end. I 72:00mean, how many Polish sources can you have? So, on one hand, it's a more healthy situation than it used to be, in my opinion. Also, with the -- having now the possibilities of applying for scholarships, going abroad, either for a Yiddish summer course or just for a -- I don't know, MA course or PhD course. More and more books are appearing. So, on one hand, it's something that -- I think it's a very good period for Jewish studies in Poland. On another hand, sometimes I'm asking myself what it will be like in ten years from now. Because, I mean, how many specialists in Jewish history can you have, right? How many Yiddishists can you have in Poland? I mean, if you want to -- I mean, I'm pretty sure that not 73:00all of these people are thinking about this in terms of their future careers. But then, I was told recently about someone who has graduated from the Jewish Studies, somewhere in Poland. And this person had problems finding work afterwards. He or she -- I'm not sure whether it was a man or a woman -- wanted to find a job in the field. And the problem was that, for a historian, this person did not have enough training in the -- in history as such, because he or she had only training in the Jewish history. But, as -- when it comes to Hebrew, he or she did not have enough training in Hebrew as such, because he did not graduate from the Hebrew department, but only from the Jewish Studies department. So, you know -- so, such a person was sort of in-between -- not 74:00enough historian, not enough Yiddish translat-- not enough Hebrew translator, for example. Not enough Hebrew speaker. So, I don't know. I'm pretty sure there will be some sort of a niche on this academic level. But sometimes, I -- some days, I'm wondering whether, in ten years, we'll probably still have something to research and to do. But, on the other hand, especially for us who are working on Yiddish sources, the thing is that this pool of Yiddish sources is limited, and it's closed. I mean, there are no new sources coming in, basically. I mean, there are no Yiddish press, right? Or alive Yiddish press, at least. Jewish institutions do not use Yiddish or Hebrew for their, I don't know, internal correspondence, or whatever. And one -- there will be one day when we will have 75:00to decide whether it's -- someone is worth writing a dissertation -- some author -- just because he wrote in Yiddish, because he -- whether -- I mean, whether it is worth it to write a dissertation about someone who is a third-rank author just because he wrote in Yiddish, right? Because all the first-rank authors and the second-rank authors will already have their dissertations written on. So, one day we will probably come to this situation, but maybe not that fast. So, we shall see. The fact is, that, especially if one looks from the perspective of Warsaw, personally I've got the feeling that every week, there is something Jewish going on. Even if we skip the Jewish Historical Institute, which every week has something. Usually, they've got at least two events every week. So, even if we skip them, there is plenty of possibilities. And sometimes, I'm choosing -- quite recently, there was a situation in which, the same day, at 76:00basically the very same hour, there were three various meetings scheduled, all of them related, somehow, to the Jewish topics. One was a book promotion, one was a discussion about something I don't remember, and something else -- what -- they had something else. And I was happy that I actually -- our nanny could not come and take care of Daniel, and I had to stay with him at home, because otherwise I would have -- I didn't know what to choose. And similar thing is going on right now. I got already two invitations -- one for a book promotion, one for a commemoration of the -- of the death of Mordechai Anielewicz and the other combatants in the bunker on Miła Street. And, at the same time, we are -- we have a Yiddish conference in Kraków. So, I will be in Kraków. So, anyway, I 77:00cannot come. But, still, there are at least three events going on in the same time. And they are mostly directed at the very same people. So, sometimes I get the feeling that we've got too much of that, and that there will be -- there is also a huge interest in Jewish topics among students, I think so. I was told -- I heard that one medieval -- one professor of medieval history had set an experience that students would come to him, and would tell him later, that "we would love to write an MA thesis on your -- under your guidance, but you're not the link with a Jew. So, actually, would like to write a thesis on the Jews, right? And you're in medieval history, so" -- and he's not a specialist on 78:00Jewish medieval history. So, it's out of the question. And most people are -- most of these works, I think are in the Holocaust. So, I suppose we are now maybe even in the peak of Jewish studies in Poland, and I suppose that we'll be slowly -- but go down, because right now, we've got the academic centers in Warsaw, in Wrocław, in Lublin, in Kraków, of course, in Lodz, to some extent, although it is very small. I have heard that there would be another one in Gdansk. So, actually, really, the question is, well, what can you do later, right? I mean, not everybody will be lucky enough to write -- to work in academia, so -- but, anyway, I mean, if people are not working in the field, I 79:00suppose it's sort of opening their horizons, I mean, to do something that is related to a different culture, to a different language. Especially since, I suppose that studying Jewish subjects, it also helps -- I'm talking about people in Poland -- to understand the Polish past, which is not like only Polish-ethnic and Polish-Catholic past, as most of us were taught in the school. But it's a very multi-lingual, multicultural, multi-confessional. And probably, it's a way to see that there's more than one way to be Polish, that it's -- that actually, one could be Polish and Jewish, or Polish and German, or Polish and -- I don't 80:00know, and Lithuanian, or Lithuanian in Poland, which is something else than Polish and Lithuanian, right? So, also, Jewish in Poland, which is something else than being Polish and Jewish -- that all these options were possible. So, in this sense, I suppose, we are getting closer to the United States of today, I suppose, when you also have a full -- at least in some parts of the United States, probably not everywhere -- where you've got this full range of options to choose from. So, yes. But the question is -- I mean, I'm not sure how long people will be really interested in that. Because right now, it's sort of fashionable. All these things related to ethnic and religious minorities -- seems to be very much on top. But, the question is how long it will take? And, I 81:00don't think it will be like a constant -- I don't think it will remain like that. I suppose, at some point, people will be fed up with that and they will look out, probably, for something else, but -- and the question also is whether those who are studying Yiddish and Hebrew and Judaism today, whether they will keep it somehow, whether they will be -- still, somehow -- whether it will be something they will be referring to, right? I'm not sure about that. But, well, time will show.

CW:Right. (laughter) Do you ever use Yiddish when -- in your daily life, outside of reading your sources?

JNK:Not really. Sometimes you organize some sort of a Yiddish tish [group]. Actually, we're lucky -- last week, we had Professor Samuel Kassow here in 82:00Warsaw, and we organized a Yiddish tish with him, and it was very, very cool -- especially, listening, because he speaks Litvish [Lithuanian] Yiddish, and it's really wonderful. So, sometimes like that. Sometimes, the occasion of some Yiddish summer course here in Warsaw. But not very often, not very often. We used to have a regular Yiddish tish when I was still a graduate student. It was when Karen Auerbach was working on her dissertation here in Poland, and we would meet every week in her flat, and for an hour or two, we would speak Yiddish only, on various subjects. And that was also very nice, and I remember this very fondly.

But the more you go into this -- I would say, the more you go into the academic 83:00life -- I mean, you're past your PhD already, and there are more and more obligations and reviews to write and applications to fulfill and articles to write and stuff like that. And then, you've got family life, also, that's -- sort of difficult to do everything you would like to do. (laughter)

CW:Definitely. What role do you see yourself, as an academic -- and also academics in general -- playing or not playing in the transmission of culture?

JNK:This is a good question. I'm not sure whether academics can -- I'm wondering whether academics, as such, can transmit a culture? I'm not sure whether they can. I mean, I'm pretty sure about, well, authors, artists being able to 84:00transmit a culture. But I'm not sure -- I mean, to some point, academic yes. But I would probably have no doubts about Polish academic working on Polish history, that he is a part of Polish culture also, and he's sort of complimenting the Polish history, but -- and probably, also, I would have no doubts about Jewish academics writing Jewish history. So, I'm wondering about whether -- for example, I can contribute something to Jewish history, as such. I'm not sure of that, actually. I probably can contribute something to the Polish study of Jewish history, but speaking about culture and Jewish culture, Polish Jewish 85:00culture -- well, probably to some extent, historiography is a part of culture. And, therefore, what we write on Jewish topics is probably also a part of a broader Polish-Jewish culture, probably. If I'm not totally convinced, it's that -- I sometimes wonder what really -- what we are really able to transmit, you know? I mean, recently, I was -- on the occasion of the uprising -- commemoration of uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto -- there were lots of materials in the Polish media. And I talked to some of my colleagues who are dealing with the whole history of Holocaust, and they were all terrified how many mistakes there were, how many errors, how many -- how very superficial it was, in many 86:00ways. And I suppose they must have the feeling that a lot of the work has just been neglected, or not noticed, or whatever.

I've got this feeling myself, sometimes, when I read some discussion groups on Jewish topics in Poland, and people are also discussing Polish Jewish history -- mostly the Holocaust, because this is what is the most common topic, right, the most popular one, and something that everybody feels himself an expert on, on the Holocaust. And, sometimes, when I read these discussions, I am like, Okay, but this topic has been already discussed a million of times. Books have been written, right? And the question -- people are -- seem to be always posing the same questions, although there have been already many books in which these 87:00particular questions have been answered. Okay, so, recently, I had some doubts about whether my work as a historian really serves anyone (laughs) besides myself. And I'm not sure it does, but I thought that, okay, well -- I mean, I'm trying to do my best. And basically, this is the only thing I can I really do, I know how to do. And if people don't read it or if they read it in a very superficial way, it's -- okay, it's their problem. But yes, sometimes I'm wondering whether we really can transmit something. On the other hand, I -- what I have just told, I told to a friend of mine who is not in the humanities, who's 88:00also a scholar, but in -- an academic, but in the sciences -- and he's interested in Jewish history and Jewish topics, also for family reasons. And he's trying, you know -- sometimes to contribute something, for example, to the Wikipedia. And -- like, translating something -- entry from English into Polish, stuff like that. Entries on Jewish topics. And he pointed out -- to a thing that I haven't thought about. He was like, you know, he basically said something like that: "Well, you know that people are not reading and -- you may -- might have the feeling that it's not worth much. But on the other hand, there are millions of books that keep appearing. And we've got our work. We've got our jobs and our families and everything." And he was like, "I'm trying, sometimes, to read something. I am trying to be more or less au courant [French: up-to-date] with things. But the thing is there are so many books and so many discussions that 89:00you simply cannot keep up with them if you're not really into the subject."

And then I thought that he was probably right, because probably, if I had been, I don't know, a doctor of medicine, I would have been terrified at the thought of stuff people are saying about various illnesses or medicines or whatever, or advertisements for some miraculous -- specifics. So, it is probably like that. If you are really into that, then you see how -- I mean, you can't really expect everybody else to be as much into that as you are, because it's your -- after all, it's not only your life, it's your profession, right? So, okay, I can read 90:00the latest books, but it's more or less also in the -- it's for my own good, right? Because, if I want to be a good academic, then I need to be more or less up-to-date with the recent discoveries in my field. But they don't have to, these people. So probably, it's like that.

So, I don't know. I don't -- I'm still thinking about your question about transmitting the culture. I never -- I suppose I never considered myself as someone who is transmitting culture. I think that, maybe it's -- I don't know. I would have to think about it something more. Do I get to do it -- to think about it now, or do you want to speak to another --

CW:Sure.

JNK:No, I'm just -- 'cause it can take a long time, so -- (laughter) so, maybe let's go to another question and then you --

CW:Sure, I'll ask --

JNK:-- and then we --

CW:-- you -- I'll ask you sort of a silly question. (laughs) Do you have a favorite Yiddish word or phrase?

JNK:That's not silly. That's not silly, although I would have to think. I probably -- well, my husband would probably say it's oy vey. I mean, by the mere frequency of using it, on a daily basis, it's probably -- it will be probably oy vey. No, I don't know, I -- sometimes, I -- I'm just surprised with the question. I suppose it's -- I suppose I do, but I just can't think of anything. Gey shray hay b'kayim [Go scream into the ocean], maybe? It's very -- it's -- 92:00well, gey shray hay b'kayim, it's -- so, it's one of these things that you can say, and you know that then these people who claim that they speak German, so they can understand everything in Yiddish -- they won't get it, right? (laughter) So, maybe -- you know, maybe this one.

CW:Can you just translate it for our audience?

JNK:Gey shray hay b'kayim, I'm not sure how to translate this into English. It's when -- in Polish, you would say pójść na Berdyczów [Polish: go to Berdyczów]. So, when you do something -- when -- it's fairly useless. I mean, you can go and tell people not to do something and yet they will do it. So, it's like doing something in vain. Okay, so, something like that, probably. I can't think right now about any idiomatic expression in English to -- no, nothing 93:00comes to my head right now, okay.

CW:Great. Well, I have just one other question. So, if you want to add anything else? This has been really wonderful.

JNK:Oh, I don't know. No, I would have to -- I need to think about this transmitting of culture, you know? But it -- I don't think it's for recording today, because I just never thought about myself in these terms, and I would have probably to -- somehow to think what it could mean. But, I usually need time to think.

CW:I understand. Well, my last question is -- if you have an eytse [piece of 94:00advice] -- do you have advice for future generations?

JNK:(laughter) I'm sorry, but it just sounds very serious, and I feel very academic-like and (laughs) scholar-like. (laughs) Teach yourself languages. (laughs) That will be my advice. No, but really, I think that teaching yourselves languages is just a cool thing. And I think that, really, this is something that opens new windows, I would say. Maybe not new horizons, but opens new windows. And personally, I enjoy this very much. And I know there are people who are studying lots of languages, just for the sake of it. I -- actually, I was never very much into this. I was always studying languages because I wanted 95:00something. Like, I wanted to understand something or to be able to read something, or to -- or whatever. And that was the history of -- behind the -- all of the languages. And, yeah, that would be an eytse.

CW:Well, I --

JNK:Teach yourself languages. Not only Yiddish, but also other languages, I mean.

CW:Great.

JNK:Languages are cool! (laughs)

CW:They are. (laughter) Well, a sheynem dank, thank you very much for taking this time.

JNK:A sheynem dank aykh [Thank you very much to you too].

CW:And I hope it didn't feel too much like an interrogation. It was really wonderful.

JNK:No, no, no, no I -- no, no, no, no, it didn't. I just -- I'm stay thinking about transmitting cultures, actually.

CW:Yeah. Just think about it.

JNK:Yeah. (laughter)

CW:Well, thanks.

JNK:No, no. No, not for the recording. Just--

CW:Yeah, but -- yeah. Well, thank you for taking this time to share with me and also with the Yiddish Book Center.

JNK:You're welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]