ALEKSANDRA BILIŃSKA ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is May 4th, 2013. I'm here in -- maybe you can tell us where we are?

ALEKSANDRA BILIŃSKA:In Głuszyn, (laughter) which is a very symptomatic name, Polish, because it's like the end of the world. It's very near Sejny, in Northeast Poland, almost on the border with Lithuania, very close to the border with Belarus. So it's like a typical borderland, very interesting place ethnically and culturally.

CW:We will definitely talk about that. And I'm here with -- and maybe you can pronounce your name so I don't screw it up?

AB:(laughter) Ola Bilińska. Ola Bilińska, yes.

CW:And we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Ola, do I have your permission to record?

AB:Well, of course. (laughter)

CW:Thank you. So just to start, can you tell me what you know about your family background?

AB:Oh. You mean -- meaning any kind of Jewish roots and stuff, or just in general?

CW:Just in general.

AB:Well, my family -- I come from Warsaw, and -- but both -- my grandparents from both sides were not born in Warsaw. They came from Eastern Poland, mostly. My grandmother came from around here, actually. She lived, I think, on the border of Poland and Belarus. And my grandfather from my father's side came from Lwów, yes. And we don't know exactly -- my father was trying to trace kind of the roots. I know part -- this part of my family, some of it comes from Germany, as well, and there might be some Jewish roots there, kind of, but we're not sure. We don't have kind of the opportunity to trace that. But -- and from the 2:00other side, actually, from my mother's side, both grandparents -- Oh, one grandmother comes from Białystok, so also around Northeast Poland, and the grandfather comes, well, from Central -- somewhere from Central Poland. They lived in the countryside, all of them. Yeah, they were mostly from farmers' families. Yeah. Oh, not the grandfather from Lwów. He was the kind of -- it was a very rich family, and they had a tenement house, and they were -- I'm not sure if they were merchants or something. I have to check that, actually. Yeah, but very spread roots, from very different backgrounds, actually, and we all met kind of in Warsaw. Yeah, that's me. (laughter)

CW:And you grew up in Warsaw.

AB:Yeah, I grew up in Warsaw, but I did travel a lot, as well. After I was ten, yeah, we -- I moved for two years into Northeast Poland, around where Aga lives, 3:00around Giżycko. I spent two years there. And then my mother decided that we're going to immigrate to the US, actually, something I haven't (laughter) talked about yet. And we spent only two months there, unfortunately, in Los Angeles, where she had some friends, and I went to school for two months. So I got a little bit -- I got to know a little bit about life, everyday life in California. (laughter) And -- but then we came back to Warsaw eventually, because it was too difficult to settle there, I suppose, finding a job and stuff. And so -- yeah, and my older brother actually was born in New York, so he is studying in -- oh gosh -- in Florida, in Gainesville, Florida at the moment. He studied in Illinois -- at Illinois University -- University of Illinois for some time, then he moved to Florida. And he's got -- he's an American citizen, basically, because my parents immigrated for a year during the martial law in Poland in '81. And they were trying to make movies here, 'cause they were -- 4:00they are both filmmakers. My mother's a director, and my father's a producer. My uncle's an actor. They all graduated from the Łódź Film Academy. Yeah, so they tried -- were actually -- Do you know Sławek Grünberg? He's a Jewish director, documentary director, and they were friends with him, and with Janusz Głowacki, as well, when they lived in New York, and they kind of formed this Association of Polish Filmmakers in America, something -- Young Polish Filmmakers in America, something like this. Very interesting story, but maybe not for today. (laughter)

CW:It's very interesting. Can you describe the culture of your home? What were the things you discussed around the dinner table?

AB:Well, my parents got divorced (laughter) pretty early on, but -- well, we could say I could from, like, an intelligentsia background, right? Like, I 5:00mentioned both my parents are filmmakers. My mother studied sociology. My father studied law. And so my house was always full of books from very -- from a very early age. I was, of course, fed with movies. Movies, movies, movies. Cinema, right? So we talked all about cinema, about music. My mother always took me to museums, art galleries, and stuff. So she was the one feeding me with history of art, as well. My father, music, as well. So culture was the main topic, I would say. Yeah, all aspects of culture, and philosophy, and history, Polish history and stuff. So it was pretty -- My brain was buzzing. (laughter)

CW:Great. What, if anything, did you know about Jewish culture when you were growing up?

AB:Quite a lot, actually, because my mother is, you could say, philosemitic. She's really fascinated with Jewish culture. I don't know where that comes from, 6:00actually. Maybe from the fact that her -- she was brought up a lot in Białystok, which is -- was one of the main centers of Jewish culture in Poland, right? With -- She made a movie, a documentary movie, about Ludwik Zamenhof. And she -- from a very early age I remember she was reading -- one of her favorite writers was Isaac Bashevis Singer. And so all of her -- all of his books were at our house. And she was reading books about Jewish history and culture, and even she started learning Hebrew at some point. And she sometimes goes to the synagogue in Warsaw. I don't know -- because there are a few, I think, but I don't know which one exactly. So I knew what bar mitzvah was and all this kind of stuff, because she was telling me. And it also, for me -- because of that, because I heard a lot about it, it was like an inter-- it became an inter -- a 7:00natural, kind of integral part of Polish culture, of course. Yeah, because I knew about the existence of a very huge -- you can't really call it a minority in Poland before the war, right? Because it was a huge part of society. So for me it was completely natural, and I took Jewish culture -- I take Jewish culture -- well, now, of course, it's obvious to me, but even as a child it was obvious that it's like a part of our heritage, and it's something completely natural, right? All the writers and the books and the music and everything.

CW:So how did you -- I mean, you already said that you had music sort of fed to you from both sides, but what was your first interest in music for yourself personally?

AB:It's always very hard to say, (laughter) you know. It's like -- I think -- well, people who, I think, start doing music later in their life, they always have this kind of instinct to look for music, to listen to music all the time. 8:00So, of course, I was listening to the Beatles and all of the stuff that my father was playing me with a lot of interest, and studying the lyrics in English. And I learned a lot of English, actually, from the lyrics, the music lyrics for the songs, mostly the Beatles, actually. The Police, the Police, and Sade, whatever. Pink Floyd, that stuff. Yeah, so you start listening to what your parents listen to. Then you start developing your own interests. MTV was huge when I was very small, right? It was like the golden era of the MTV. So I spent my childhood watching Cartoon Network in English, which was a great source of learning English. It was fantastic. And MTV, which was music videos, and also in English, everything in English. So that was, I suppose, the beginning. Then I started singing along with the radio, and then being -- getting part -- being 9:00part of some school bands, of course, from when I was sixteen onwards. And then I moved to England for two years, where I had -- oh, no, first I went to music school for a year in Poland. I had to quit because I got a scholarship in England, but there I could continue because I got a scholarship also for guitar lessons and singing lessons, and I was part of the jazz band, and the choir, and the madrigal group, and everything I could, actually. I was playing in musicals. It was a very good school, Saint Anne's, because it was really focused on performing arts, as well, so it was a good place for me to go. Yeah, and so I developed and grew, and when I came back to Warsaw, which was a very conscious decision not to go studying in England, where I would have to form -- meet new people completely, develop a circle of friends and people -- and find people who would play music with me, right? From scratch, right? That would be very difficult. So I cautiously went back to Poland, because I knew people who did 10:00music there already, and I had some place to start. So when I came back for university to Warsaw, I started, of course, again playing in different bands. And then I met my former boyfriend, who dragged me, kind of asked me to sing in a band called Płynę, which is like an alternative pop band, which was already pretty, well, kind of niche, of course, but pretty popular in some circles in Warsaw, very nice kind of folk -- urban folk, you could say, band. And that got me started, because through Płynę I met other people, and finally I met, for example, Raphael Rogiński, who you're going to talk to, probably, as well. And that kind of introduced me to this whole circle of people making new Jewish music, you could say, in Warsaw and in Poland. And I am pretty strongly connected with the circle. At the moment I am working with -- apart from Raphael, I'm working with Paweł Szamburski, who is one of the leading figures. 11:00He's always present in all of the Jewish music festivals in Wars-- in Poland, right? And he's making new and new projects all the time. And I also was asked last year to do a solo project for the singer, Warsaw Jewish Music Festival. No, culture, I think, Jewish Culture Festival in Warsaw. So I had to kind of work on a solo project. I had to do something on my own, finally, connected with Jewish culture and based on Jewish music. So that's how I came up with these -- well, Raphael gave me the idea that he has -- he had books with Jewish -- with songs in Yiddish. So I looked through the songs, and I decided to make -- concentrate of lullabies in Yiddish, which I am still very impressed by this material, actually, not what I did with it, but kind of the source material. Because 12:00they're really gorgeous songs, beautiful songs.

CW:So can you tell me more about these songs? What struck you about them as being special?

AB:Well, the -- I studied literature, like I said, English literature, so I am pretty sensitive to the literary material, also, when I -- I always pay a lot of attention to lyrics, not only the ones I write but the ones of the music I listen to. And, well, the first thing I -- well, I had this book, right, so it was written -- like, written material. So I had to look through it, read it. So the first kind of criteria, criterion for choosing the songs was the lyrics, right? I looked at the lyrics, which was, for me -- I was actually -- 'cause I had the Yiddish version, written in the Hebrew alphabet, then in the transcription to the Latin alphabet, and then I had the lyrics in English, 13:00because it was in a book, I think, published in America. And I was struck by how good these lyrics are, how beautiful, really high-standard poetry, really good poetry. And then when I looked at the -- I checked out the authors of the lyrics, it -- I found out that they're actually -- a lot of them were poets, basically, Yiddish poets from before the Second World War, writing in Poland or in Russia or the -- in Eastern -- Central, Eastern Europe, generally. But mostly, actually, on the territory of the prewar Polish Republic, (laughter) right? So very beautiful poetry. Wonderful lyrics. Very delicate, very subtle. Very poetic. And then I started -- and I took this book, and then I read through the notes, played them on the piano. So the second criteria was to choose the melodies that I liked, right? But the first one was the literature, right, then 14:00the music actually.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I'm just wondering if there -- if you could share one of the songs that you -- from that project.

AB:Do you want me to sing? (laughter)

CW:Well, if you want.

AB:Well, there -- I'm a freak -- well, not a freak. (laughter) I'm really into also topics related to nature when I make my music, and so one of the criteria was to choose lullabies and evening songs. The whole kind of topic of the concert was the kind of serene atmosphere of the evening, as -- and the border between being awake and being asleep, right? But also there were a lot of really lovely songs with motifs from nature. For example, there was a song, "Toybn" -- "The Doves," right? (sings) "Toybn shteyen bay mayn fenster, vayse toybn tsvey 15:00[Doves sitting on my windowsill, two white doves]." And then I can't remember the rest (laughter) of the lyrics now at the moment, because it was a year ago. And it was pretty fresh for me at that time, also, these lyrics and everything. But a very lovely song about doves sitting on the windowsill. And I don't know, how do you call the sound that they make, in English? Gruchanie [Polish: coo]?

CW:Coo.

AB:Cooing, yes, and cooing. Very, very, very kind of -- The motif of doves, which is kind of religious, in a way, but also the sound -- I tried to render in music the sound of the cooing birds when I was making this song. So a very lovely motif. And another song of -- which was, I suppose, the favorite in -- my favorite was called "Berjozkele" -- "The Birch Tree." And it's an absolutely gorgeous song, which I later had the opportunity to sing -- I was invited by the 16:00Jewish Embassy in Warsaw, to sing one song at the ceremony of -- giving the -- what's the name in English? Sprawiedliwych Wśród Narodów Świata.

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA:Righteous Among the Nations.

AB:Yeah, Righteous Among the Nations medals to -- it's more people, new people, last year, with Professor Doroszewski, and, you know -- at the Prime Minister's building and stuff. So it was very serious, and I was honored with the opportunity to sing this one song, just chosen by me, a capella, actually, just with like an effect, a delay, which I manipulate kind of to create this certain space, with changes throughout the song. And I could see that -- Well, the song was -- if -- it came out the song was really perfect for the -- for this, 'cause kind of a very serene, a very sad, melancholic at one side, but on the other -- 17:00on the other hand, the lyrics talk about kind of hope, as well, yes. It's -- the lyrics are about -- maybe I can remember fragments. I don't know Yiddish, right? I know how to pronounce Yiddish. I know how to sing in Yiddish. I was taught by Anya Rozenfeld, actually. She gave me some -- she recorded the versions, you know, in spoken language for me, so I could learn on that. And from what I heard, my pronunciation is pretty okay. (laughter) They were happy. But I think I can remember fragments. Ruik, ruik, shokelt ir gelekhter [Quietly, quietly, her laughter trembles] -- [sings] shokelt ir gelekhter. Oh, no, I can't now. Sorry, I'm stressed now. (laughter)

CW:It's okay. It's okay. Don't worry. Don't worry.

AB:Yeah, but maybe later I'll be able to sing. I think I have the lyrics with me somewhere.

CW:Okay.

AB:Yeah, but it was a really nice event, this one, with the Righteous Among the 18:00Nations. And people after the ceremony came to me, said they were really touched. And it was perfect for the occasion, yeah. Really, really -- It was, for me, very -- also very moving, moving to go to -- to perform there.

CW:What did -- what's it like for you to sing in Yiddish, in this language, sort of approaching the language for the first time?

AB:It was a really fascinating experience for me, as -- because I'm interested in languages, right? I studied literature and linguistics. And it's a fascinating language, because it's a mixture -- a fantastic mix between -- you know, you see the German. Yes, there's mostly German influence. But some of the words come definitely from Polish, and they are just -- they have a suffix or a prefix characteristic for Yiddish, right? So you see this trushkafke 19:00[strawberry], or maline [raspberry], or suddenly you find a word which has -- which is like a kind of German-style transcription of a Polish or a Russian word, right? I don't -- can't remember. There was one particular example which was really funny for me, and really fascinating, as -- concerning the mechanisms which created this language, right? So very interesting experience, linguistically. But it wasn't -- because of -- because it's got a lot of German words, but the pronunciation is not strictly German, right? It's easier for Polish people, I think, to speak Yiddish, 'cause it's got a certain softness from Russian, right? And from the Slavic languages, as well, right? It's not kind of strictly a German thing. So it's lovely.

CW:Yeah. So what was your mothers' reaction when you started doing Jewish music?

AB:She was very excited. She was very excited, and she -- I think she was proud of me, as well, that I kind of followed her steps, you know. (laughter) And yeah, she attended some of my concerts, and she was really -- yeah, she was really proud. And so, yeah, so now we have another topic to talk about. You know, sometimes it's difficult when you grow up to have something in common with your mom. (laughter) So this is definitely something we can talk about, right?

CW:Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about where we are now, and the project that is going on in this area?

AB:Um-hm. As I said, we're just a few kilometers now from Sejny, which you could say is a phenomenon on the Polish map, because it's a very small town, just a few thousand inhabitants, but there's -- there has been a foundation founded 21:00there, (laughter) twenty-two years ago, twenty-three years ago now, Pogranicze Foundation, the Borderland Foundation, by four people, the -- Mr. and Mrs. Czyżewski, and Mr. and Mrs. Szroeder, who are still the kind of leading figures of the foundation, but there are a lot of other people involved. And they -- basically, their goal is to promote -- I'm not sure -- to spread awareness among young people, but not only, of the cultures of the Polish Borderland, from before the war and after the war now. So they concentrate on promoting and 22:00rather, I think, the better word would be cultivating the tradition and the memory of Jewish culture which existed here before the war, and of Lithuanian culture, of course, which is still lively and present, because, I think, forty percent of people in Sejny are Lithuanian. (laughter) And -- but I'm not sure about the numbers, but it's quite a high percentage. And also the Gypsy culture, right? Which -- because there were a lot of Gypsy people here and, of course, all around Poland. So these are the three, I think, main topics they focus on. So they conduct workshops, yes. They publish books. They have a publishing house. They publish, for example, Gross's "Neighbors" -- that was the English translation, right? Which was a huge, I could say -- well, a very famous book at 23:00some point, and still is, in Poland. It's kind of now a point of reference for the whole discussion, right, of the Polish Jewish relationships before the war and during the war, et cetera, and after the war also, right? But also they publish a lot of other fantastic books from the Balkan Peninsula, by writers from the Balkan Peninsula, from America, yeah. I think they publish Ruth Gruber, for example, whom I met last year during the twenty-second anniversary of the existence of Borderland Foundation. So yeah, they are a huge force in cultivating these three -- the memory of these three cultures, and the heritage 24:00of these three cultures in Poland, yes, and spreading the news and the knowledge about it among young people, amongst young people, and also teaching the people -- they have music workshop. They have bands in which really young people play. So they educate, also. They're responsible for the musical education, the cultural education of young people in the whole region here, really. So a very fantastic thing here, they're doing here.

CW:And how did you get involved?

AB:I was invited last year for this huge anniversary kind of meeting to perform as a solo singer in the project, which was especially ordered (laughter) to -- how to say? Well, a con-- we were supposed to make -- to prepare a special concert for this ceremony, right? For this whole event, right? Last year, in 25:00May, exactly the same time last year, same weekend. So there were people from all around the world, really, and a very important -- probably the most important person who came was -- [BREAK IN RECORDING] Max Furmański, of course, a very important figure who came -- one of -- probably the most important figure for the ceremony was Max Furmański, who came with his wife and his two children, who is possibly the only surviving Jewish inhabitant of Sejny from before the war. Because, of course, as in many places around the -- around Poland, the whole Jewish community was just gathered on one day by the Nazis and they were all shot, basically, wiped out. And he was lucky enough to have quarreled with his parents, I think, a few days before this whole massacre, and 26:00he just escaped. He ran away from home, basically, because he argued with his parents or something. And it was just some amazing coincidence that, yeah, he survived, right? And he didn't want to come back for a long, long time, and he only came back when he was now -- now that he was a pretty elderly person. His children, I think, persuaded him to come. He was invited by the Pogranicze Foundation. They met him, I think, by accident. He was looking at the synagogue, and, of course, they started to have -- I don't know. They became friends, right? And they invited him a few times. And he was like the crown guest of the ceremony last year. But what we did -- I think I kind of digressed a little bit. What we did for the concert was that there was a concert first by Max Furmański 27:00on one evening, because he's a singer, and he sang, well, kind of the most famous, probably, songs -- like hymns -- in Yiddish and in Hebrew, I think, mostly, with his wonderful, kind of operatic voice, and with a piano, with Marcin Masecki on the piano. He's, like, the leading pianist, young, alternative, you could say, pianist in Poland. And then we performed with our project, with Raphael, and the Sejny Orchestra, of ten people, from Włodek Moniuszko, who was nine years old at that time -- he played on the piano -- to Raphael. I think he was the oldest person in the band. And I was the singer. And there were some dulcimer -- there was dulcimer, double bass, some trumpet, and a lot of different instruments. So like a small orchestra. And we played songs based -- again, the stimulus were the lyrics, the literary material, which was 28:00found by Raphael. There were the lyrics of Kabbalistic mystical poets from Spain that you probably know. (laughter) Oh, I can't remember the names now! But I have them somewhere. Can I bring them?

CW:Sure.

AB:Yeah?

CW:Wait, let's unhook you first before you walk away. Sure.

AB:Because it's interesting.

CW:Yeah, yeah.

AB:Just a second. (pause) Oh, there's one text in Yiddish, as well.

CW:Really?

AB:Is that okay?

CW:Perfect.

AB:This is by -- one of the songs -- but this section is new. It wasn't performed last year -- is called "Libe lid [love song]," and it's based on a poem by Debora Vogel, who was a friend of Bruno Schulz, right? And they, I 29:00think, exchanged letters for a long time, wrote letters to each other. And the other lyrics are, for example, by Ibn Gabriol [sic], or by Yehudah Halevi, so kind of the leading mystical poets of the Middle Ages, in Spain, at least. And very wonderful, touching lyrics, which are very ecumenic, you could say, at the same time, because they are basically prayers to God. Very poetic, and -- for example, there's --

CW:Can you sing for us? (laughter)

AB:I could, but I think it would be better if you recorded our --you could stay a little bit longer and record our rehearsal.

CW:Sure.

AB:Because it's a completely different effect when the whole band is singing in 30:00the synagogue, 'cause we performed in the synagogue, the White Synagogue, of course. There is this natural environment, right, for -- which is in itself mystical, you could say. For example, the "Morning Prayer," which is the song we always perform as the first one. (singing) "Oh Lord, my life was known to thee. Ere thou hadst caused me yet to be. Thy spirit ere dwells in me." (speaking) And so it's like -- it's prayer, basically. There's a fantastic song, which is, for 31:00me, lovely because -- this, I think, is the most Jewish one, because apart from being, again, an apostrophe to God, it's also -- it has this kind of, I think, sense of humor, a Jewish sense of humor, kind of very ironic, a little bit dark. Can I read the lyrics?

CW:Yeah.

AB:Just 'cause I'm not going to sing it, because all of the songs are really slow, and they're based mostly on the atmosphere of --

CW:Sure.

AB:-- the whole band playing, and -- but, "On the day I was born, the unalterable stars altered. If I decided to sell lamps, it wouldn't get dark till the day I died. Some stars, whatever I do I'm a failure before I begin. If I suddenly decided to sell shrouds, people would suddenly stop dying." It's a very -- you know the song -- this film by the Coen Brothers, "Serious Man"? For me 32:00it's, like, the gist of this, you know, kind of -- right, anyway.

CW:Great. I want to ask just some general questions now, sort of from your perspective. I'm -- first of all want to go back a little bit. I'm curious sort of how you -- how Jewish history, and particularly the Holocaust, was represented in your education.

AB:Mm. Well, there's a problem with Polish (laughter) education concerning history -- at least I had this problem -- that as soon as we got, like, to the Second World War -- we never managed, really, to get to the Second World War. I think I would get there in high school, finally, probably. I would have got there if I hadn't moved to England. But I moved to England in my second year, and I did manage to get there. So I never actually studied history of the Second 33:00World War and the Holocaust in the Polish school. But I'm not a very representative person, because my education was a little bit spread around the world, you could say. But you could say that the part of the education in Poland is what you hear in the media, as well, right? And, of course, I think for the last few years, at least, there has been a lot of focus in the media on -- for example, this year, when there was the anniversary of the uprising in the Ghetto, in the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw, there has -- there was a lot, a lot, of talk about it in the media. There were programs. There were interviews, for example, with Myron Heifetz. And actually -- because I mostly listen to the 34:00second radio, Polish radio channel, which focuses on the classical music and folk music, but folk also including the folk of the minorities. So they also, for example, this year, for the New Tradition Competition, a lot of Yiddish -- albums in Yiddish, or albums of Jewish music were nominated. So they also have a lot of programs and interviews with people connected with that. And the celebration of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, (laughter) the birth-out, right? It was celebrated a lot on Polish radio, too. There was a lot of programs -- there were a lot of programs connected with that. What else? I think -- well, always when there is some kind of -- rocznica -- anniversary, where there is some kind 35:00of anniversary connected with the Holocaust, you do hear something on the media, right? In the media. Plus, if you live in Warsaw, you can't escape from that, right? There are -- one spring, I think -- well, one of the signs of spring coming to Warsaw are trips of Jewish young people sightseeing around. You see a lot of that. And, well, if you're interested, you can always go and talk to them. Well, I suppose not many people do, but -- (laughter) But I think it's a sign that also Israel is kind of opening up, yeah, to Poland, yeah, and to kind of making this connection with the past, the Polish past, as well, right? So it's like a normal sight now. Yeah, I -- that's one thing that comes to mind 36:00now, at the moment.

CW:Yeah. Do you have any -- I mean, from -- there's a lot of talk in the US, at least, about sort of a revival of interest in Jewish music, among other things. Do you -- what's your take on that idea, sort of, of cultural revival in general?

AB:Um-hm. Well, I'm part of that, in a way, here (laughter) in Poland, which is kind of a coincidence in a way, because you know how it works -- you meet somebody and you get part of -- become part of one project, and then somebody else listens to a concert or to your music, and says, "Hey, would you like to be part of that project?" So now I'm part of, like, three or four bands who actually perform Jewish music, new Jewish music. And I -- well, there was an interesting discussion about that with Ruth Gruber, whom I mentioned already, 'cause she's kind of a specialist in this kind of thing, I think. And I think, 37:00from what I understood from what she was saying last year, in Sejny, she understands it as a kind of -- well, it's a reconstruction, right? It's part of trying to reconstruct the nonexistent now, right, kind of old Jewish, traditional Jewish culture, right? And -- European Jewish culture, sorry. Because, of course, in America there have been the descendants of those people who escaped the Holocaust, for example, living now in peace for generations, right? But in Europe, basically, the whole population ceased to exist, right? So now in Europe people are trying to reconstruct the world which existed before the war, culturally, and historically, I suppose. And it's a kind of -- one 38:00could argue it's a kind of simulacrum, right? It's impossible. Of course, we have a different reality now, which is -- where there's this void, right? Of this nonexistent now population. But I think the memory is very important, and the fact that it's coming back, and that more and more people become interested, and more people start doing something, some-- making projects, which are trying to revive this culture, this music tradition, et cetera, it's very important. Because it is, like I've said, it's part of, for example, Polish cultural heritage. Our best poets were Jewish. Well, not all of them, (laughter) of course, but some of them -- you know, Tuwim, Brzechwa, et cetera, Lechoń, I think, again, also, right? Schulz, who was kind of my favorite Polish writer, you know, and he was amazingly talented. He wrote in Polish, right? Which was, I 39:00think, an original choice for him. But it's -- we are lucky, in a way, because we don't have to translate him. Yes, we've got his thoughts straight from the head into Polish, so I'm thanking God for that. But in a way -- you know, but he was still a Jewish writer, and it's a very important part of our culture. And, of course, people should be aware of that. Yeah. (laughter) So it's good. It's very good.

CW:Great. What do you see as the role that performing artists play, or don't, in transmitting culture?

AB:Can you repeat that?

CW:Okay. Yeah, it's fine. (laughter) What's the role of -- the performing artists play, or don't play, in the transmission of culture? Like --

AB:In the transmission of culture, meaning? If you could elaborate.

CW:Yeah. Like, educating, or continuing culture, spreading culture.

AB:Well, I think musicians play one of the -- you're asking about musicians mostly, um-hm? -- play one of the most important parts, because music is something really natural. It's something -- it's -- one could say -- well, it's on the border of art and entertainment always, in a way. You go to a concert because you want to listen to music, and if you go to an ambitious concert maybe to witness some art, right, happening, but also to entertain yourself, right? So it's a very, very good medium, for example, to communicate -- to transmit culture to young people, yes, who very often -- well, when you're a teenager you always listen to some kind of music, right? So there's this potential that young people could kind of get really into it, yes? Drawn into it through the music, 41:00right? Because it's a cool band playing. Like, there's this band by Raphael Rogiński called Alte Zachen -- "old things," right? From Yiddish. And it's really cool music. It's like surf rock, but they are playing traditional motifs, I think, Sephardic motifs. And so it's a fantastic combination of something which is cool, and at the same time it's got some historical value, right? And cultural value. So it can attract, I think, a lot of people who are not necessarily interested strictly in this topic to become interested in it, right? So I think it's a very important role we play, right, here. (laughter) Yeah.

CW:Do you consider yourself an activist for Jewish culture, Yiddish culture?

AB:Not in a conscious way. In a sense, right? As I said, I kind of got involved, in a way, by accident, but, of course, I was really happy about it. Yeah, it was a coincidence, but I got -- I accepted this, and got into it, and become -- and became involved, because I'm also interested, and -- like I said. But I'm not -- I think there are a lot of people who are a lot more active, (laughter) and they could be called activists. I'm -- I suppose I'm more interested in the aesthetic value of these songs, and, like I said, I was really positive -- well, maybe not surprised, but I was fascinated with how beautiful these lyrics were, and the melodies. Really, the greatest composers and poets from before the war were writing these Yiddish songs that I was singing. So the aesthetic value, for me, 43:00was very appealing. But also, as I say, I think it's very important to put some emphasis on that, and to promote this element of our heritage, right?

CW:How does your work and your personal life -- sort of what's the connection, if at all, with the things that you're singing and your personal identity?

AB:As I said, I don't have any kind of conscious Jewish roots, right? But I have this theory that everyone in Poland has some kind of Jewish connection. It's something you sometimes can't escape. But... (sighs) Singing in Yiddish, right, a personal connection -- like I said, it's -- for me, it's just -- first of all, 44:00it's a fantastic opportunity to sing material which is, as I said, really valuable aesthetically, really interesting from the cultural point of view, because Yiddish is a language which is no longer used in Poland, right? And it's hardly used anywhere in the world, right? I heard that there are some revival movements, right? I know that even in America there are some people who bring up their children in Yiddish, yeah? Is that true? Which is really cool. I think it's a very difficult project, but it's cool. And the -- but the thing -- the question I was asking myself when I heard this is if there will be some kind of environment for these kind of people to practice this language, actually, because, okay, if there are a few families, I suppose they can talk in Yiddish 45:00to each other, but it's a kind of our personal project versus the world kind of thing. Is this gonna spread or something? But it's very interesting, because it's a very interesting language. And, well, language is the vehicle for culture, right? And along with this language dying, a whole culture, you could say, died, this kind of Ashkenazi Jewish culture, which was wiped out with the Holocaust, right? So I think once -- when you try to revive a language, it's a really important aspect of reviving a whole culture. So I think it relates to what we talked about earlier. The music is one of these aspects, but music -- and Yiddish is perfect, right? Because it combines the language and the music. So it's also fascinating for me that I can somehow, by singing these songs, bring to life a culture which is gone. And when I am -- well, not entirely gone, 46:00thank God. (laughter) Because you are working to -- on it, to bring it back to life somehow. But yeah, when I was singing this concert at the Singer Festival in Warsaw, in a language which I don't really know. Of course, I studied the lyrics. I knew what they mean, so that I could engage myself emotionally in singing these songs. But there were some really old people who came to -- it was a whole kind of spectrum, age spectrum, from very young people to really kind of elderly people. And there were some ladies crying, you know. I think they were listening to songs which they might have remembered from their childhoods, or from what their mothers or grandmothers were singing to them when they were going to sleep, because they were mostly lullabies, right? For me, also, this form of the lullaby was extremely -- a kind of fragile thing, something 47:00connected with the childhood, with kind of the deepest levels of your memory, of consciousness. So it was like a double symbolic value, yeah, first of all in Yiddish, and secondly a lullaby, so like a remnant from a world which is gone historically, but also gone in the way that childhood kind of just fades, right, when you grow up. So very, very beautiful symbol, I think.

CW:Great. Well, I have one more question, but I'm wondering if you have a question.

AI:I do, Ola. I would like to ask you how do you feel as a Pole represents Jewish culture what generally is gone, but not at all, because in some places in Poland actually we do have native Yiddish speakers, and how you feel as a person who actually doesn't have -- or don't know about Jewish rules, in the front of the some kind of Jewish audience, as well? Like, for example, on the Festival, 48:00but as well in the Embassy. How do you find yourself in this situation?

AB:Um-hm. Well, the -- when I was representing -- when I was singing at the ceremony, right, I was really honored, and I was really touched, because, again, I was witnessing live history, you know what I mean? People who lived through -- who witnessed the Holocaust, and who actually had the guts to help other people. Plus there were also -- not only the people who got the medals were present, but also the people -- or the family of the people who survived, right? Who were the object -- who were helped, yeah? Who were saved. So there were some really touching confrontations there, and it was like, wow. It was, you know, as -- of 49:00course, it wasn't like witnessing these events, but you could at least get the impression of, the feeling of how strong these emotions were at the time, and how difficult it all was, you know? Really difficult. And I think, well, it's still -- it's all still pretty controversial in Poland, right? And there's still a lot of debates and discussions going on. And there were -- people take sides, right? Some people -- like this film "Pokłosie," recently, again raised the discussion of whether -- I don't know, whether we put too much attention, for example, on -- now on raising this discussion whether Polish people were involved in the Holocaust or not, and some people think that there -- it's too much attention put on it. Some people think there is not enough attention put on 50:00it. So it's a controversial topic. But I think, well, from my perspective -- I'm an artist, right? And as I said, this is beautiful art, and it should be promoted, whatever the -- promoted. It's -- I hate this word. (laughter) It should be taken to the people, right? And cherished. No matter the cost, yeah, or -- it's objectively wonderful, yeah? So that's very important. So I'm honored that I could get in touch with these songs and with this heritage, because it's really valuable. It's really lovely. Not lovely. (laughter) That's so not a good word here. It's very valuable and precious, yeah?

CW:Great. Any other questions?

AI:Yeah, and one more question about what do you think about the condition of 51:00the Jewish culture today, in the context of where we were growing up, the nineties, we didn't hear about Jewish culture, Jewish -- we were full of anti-Semitism in media, in the culture, in '90s, at least in the beginning. And right now is this huge revival of the culture. Each single town, city has Jewish culture festival. What do you think caused that? What do you think is the reason why we are in this moment?

AB:I think there are many reasons. First of all, I think Polish economy -- (laughter) maybe that's a surprising word to mention in this context, but Polish economy is becoming more and more stable. And because people's worth -- welfare is improving, I think they are not so bothered about anti-Semitic impulses or something. I think in a country where there is welfare and peace, people have a 52:00more positive attitude towards foreigners, towards ethnic minorities, et cetera. So that could be another pragmatic reason for that. But also I think as time passes, people get -- gain more and more distance towards the war, and postwar. Of course, 1968 in Poland was also a burning issue. And a lot of people are maybe coming back, as well, or their children are coming back. And there's more openness, I think, towards discussion towards, generally, towards Jewish culture, (laughter) and this kind of heritage. So that's another reason. We have a kind of distance in time -- distance towards history. And it could be also, I think, connected with political -- with politics, yeah. Maybe the current 53:00government is basically more open to promote these kind of initiatives, et cetera, and more money. Of course, it's all connected with money, as if you want to make a festival you need a budget. So the fact that these kind of cultural undertakings do get the support, the financial support, suggests that, hello, hey, Poland is finally a country which is open, right, and is not afraid to embrace our history in full, (laughter) maybe.

CW:Yeah. Great. Well, I'm just wondering if you have a piece of advice for people -- maybe aspiring artists who are curious about doing Jewish music.

AB:Well, it's fashionable at the moment. Well, 'cause when we talked about that, 54:00you said that every town now has a Jewish festival. I get the impression that not only is it finally -- is there finally space for that, but that it's becoming, in a way, fashionable. So hey, go for it! (laughter) Because now is the time. It might be fashion-- (laughter) I'm joking, of course, but there's a grain of truth in that. Suddenly a whole kind of space opened up, yeah, for these kind of projects, and I get the impression there is a kind of boom. I am -- like I said, I am not kind of strictly, actively involved in this. I am more invited to take part in different projects, which I am very happy about, of course, but it's -- now it's like -- it's in the media, yes. The festivals are happening, so there is a space -- there is space for that. So if anyone would be 55:00interested, I think that's a good time to do it, to start their bands, yes, to start their projects, and to take advantage of that space, yes, which was -- has finally been created. Yeah, I hope it's gonna last, it's not just a trend or something, yes? I hope it's a more lasting thing. Because it's enriching our scene, for example. Yeah, you get this band like Alte Zachen, yeah, or -- so you don't have to go to just like a rock band concert. You can go to a surf -- Jewish surf rock band concert. It's -- I think it's more interesting, because it's got this cultural background, right? And I hope it's a sign that there will be a lot of different -- well, we've got this stage with -- of new Jewish music. Maybe suddenly there will be a stage of new Gypsy music, you know, and stuff. So 56:00hopefully it's a trend for Poland generally opening up to all of their -- all aspects of Polish culture and Polish minorities culture, et cetera. So it's very positive.

CW:Great. Well, sheynem dank. Thank you very much (laughter) for taking the time to talk to us.

AB:It was a pleasure.

[END OF INTERVIEW]