MICHAŁ MONIUSZKO ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is April 4th, 2013. I am here in Sejny. And can you pronounce your name for me, so I don't mess it up?

MICHAŁ MONIUSZKO:Michał Moniuszko.

CW:And we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

MM:Yes, (laughter) you have my permission to record.

CW:Dziękuję [Polish: Thank you]. So, to start, can you just tell me a little about your -- what you know about your family background, where your family came from?

MM:I am basically from here. My mother's family is from here originally, and my father's family is from Podlasie region, very near to the Biebrza River. So it's 1:00basically, I would say, it's -- I'm from here.

CW:Um-hm. And was there a specific profession or career in your family history that you know?

MM:As far I know, most of my family are teachers in school. My mother, my aunts. (laughter) So I'd say teachers, yeah. That's my profession.

CW:And what about religious background?

MM:Catholic, Roman Catholic, everybody.

CW:Um-hm. So you grew up right here in town?

MM:Yeah, I was born in Sejny, in this small town of Sejny. And yeah, and I just 2:00have small period of five years studying in Warsaw, and, yeah, and then afterwards I get back here.

CW:Can you tell me just what was it like to grow up here?

MM:Oh. I didn't have any other perspective. I mean -- (laughter)

CW:Can you describe the community?

MM:Lakes, lakes, forests, lots of space to do creative things. Nature. I'm very appreciate after my studies in Warsaw.

CW:Can you tell me about the people that live here? What was the community when you were growing up?

MM:Oh, what was the community? A small community, with very -- for me, I mean -- 3:00you know, special thing in such a place is that everybody knows everybody. So -- and most of us here is one big family. So yeah, I had a feeling like we are very close to each other here in town. And yeah, and another thing was that in -- there was one particular moment when I got knowledge about this place, which is still creating me somehow. I mean, my experience to work in a team of -- in this 4:00organization, Borderland Center of Arts, Cultures and Nations and Borderland Foundation here in Sejny.

CW:When you were growing up, what did they teach you about this place, if anything?

MM:Yeah. So it is the -- what I had in school, it was just normal program, history program, or literature, or culture, or maths. So it was, I think, very, I would say, the same what is taught in Warsaw or Kraków or Gdansk or Pieńsk here nearby. Nothing special. I mean, nothing about my place.

CW:So when did you learn about --

MM:Yeah, and there was -- as I said before, there was one particular moment when I got to know guys who established the center, and when I got into this work -- I mean, artistic work, educational, artistic -- when I got to the artistic groups, musical theater. So it was, I mean, getting the past somehow, getting into the past of this town, because I was -- I started from theater. We did -- in 1996, we made -- realized or "jak to się mówi że" [Polish: how to say 6:00that] --

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA:You realized.

MM:-- drama by An-sky, "Dibuk: tsvishn tsvey veltn [Dybbuk: between two worlds]," (laughter) in synagogue. And this space was for me just warehouse before, because it was a warehouse. It was renovated in the late '80s. In the former yeshiva building, there was a shoe factory. So I got there parts of leather for -- (mimics slingshot with hands) pshh, proca [Polish: slingshot] --

CW:Slingshot, yeah.

MM:That's right. And here in this building, which was in the beginning of century a very famous Hebrew gymnasium, there was a post office. So for me it 7:00was post office. Then they got completely different, you know, background. [BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Just explain what this organization is, where we are.

MM:Borderland Foundation, Borderland Center of Arts, Cultures, and Nations -- there are two organizations formally, but in idea and ethos it's only one and the same. It's a collective of people who are working on multicultural heritage of this place, which is unique in Poland after the Second World War. I mean, it's still historically multicultural. Sejny right now is only Polish Lithuanian town. Before, it was, in the beginning of twentieth century, almost seventy 8:00percent of population were Jews. So it was like a shtetl, Jewish shtetl, you know? There's -- I have my friends -- I had my friends always, but then I realized what does it mean to be Old Believer, Russian Old Believer, to go to the molenna, to the church, and to have no care here. That's special things for Old Believers. Then I got to know what there was in -- that there were whole German community here, and that I was always playing by the Protestant church, which is empty right now. I realized that there are some traces which are still 9:00covered somehow, and for some of the people are still unknown. But --

CW:And --

MM:-- I just work in the -- and most of -- the basic thing which we do here in Borderlands Center is educational work, educational artistic work with kids, young people.

CW:When you were growing up, what were the general attitudes towards minority culture?

MM:I wouldn't -- you know, that's strange questions for me, because I lived here. It was, for me, it was just organic situation, that I've heard completely a different language on the street, Lithuanian, which is not Slavic, which is -- 10:00if you don't know it, it's like -- it's a way to pass that taboo, or -- you know? And so for me it was normal. So that's why it's strange question for me, because I lived here always, and I felt it always. I have my friends, Lithuanian friends, and then I got that also other people were living here, other religions and stuff, so --

CW:Did you know anything before your encounter with this center about Jewish culture?

MM:Of course I knew from history books.

CW:What did you learn?

MM:There were always a few pages about Holocaust, with terrible photos. That was 11:00the history -- nobody talks about the living -- I mean, the past of Jewish heritage in Poland, living culture, but always there were some pages about death, only death. So that was also my irritation about that. Later on, I got to this living past. I would say living, but it's no longer -- right now, as I said, there are just traces left, and nobody left. But I got to know in the synagogue, in the building of synagogue, empty white space where it was placed for twenty years warehouse of fertilizers. We destroyed everything. That's how 12:00it's -- you know, without frescoes, without any color, it's just pure white. But it's kind of a metaphor for this place. Yeah. And what I -- it wasn't kind of a special philosophy that I got to this. So I got through to the simple artistic experience, just preparing realization of a theater performance.

CW:So can you tell me more about that first An-sky, "Tsvishn tsvey veltn," that you did?

MM:Yeah. That was -- yeah, that was a very special experience, because we had a great -- I would say I got into great process of getting the Jewish past about 13:00-- of Sejny, not only Sejny, because we were studying to understand the story, to understand the philosophy, the Kabbalah and all of -- including all of the special things which builds up the story, very simple, about love. It's like Jewish "Romeo and Juliet." But what was very interesting for me, that it happened here in this part of Eur-- of world, and that this world existed here in this place. And when I started to read about -- to read Singer, for example, or Kanovich, Grigory Kanovich, great writer, I started to feel a kind of -- it's 14:00hard to find the words for that, but I started to find a special nostalgia for -- or I felt a kind of loss for -- in this place. And later on I got to know a lot of -- later on I got into music, also through the performance, because the idea for this realization was to build a performance and music on mostly Hasidic songs, nigunim [melodies], and Jewish traditional music. You know, the core -- 15:00the heart of performance is a wedding, so it was klezmer music. So nigunim, klezmer music, it was, for me, who was playing before in hardcore music, it was like getting to another world. And a few years later, with a band and performers, we go to Kraków to Jewish Culture Festival. First we went with "Dybbuk" to Kraków to play just simple in a theater, and because the idea was to play performance afterwards, we played just music for dancing. And we met Janusz Makuch at that time, who was singing with us, nigunim, Chabad nigunim 16:00mostly. And yeah, he invited us to the festival. And then everything began. We met great musicians from States.

CW:Yeah. Let me just adjust this really quick. So who were some of the -- was there any person in particular that was like a mentor or important teacher for you?

MM:Yeah, guys who held the work, educational work here, who were like directors of this work. For me, it was Wojciech Szroeder, who held all the musical work here, musical workshop here. And Małgorzata Czyżewska, who was a director of 17:00performance. And together, they helped our group, and together we got through this process. And still reoccurring this work somehow, because we still play in the same band, with another different generations right now, because the idea is to build up, for example, music on kids, with kids, together, and youngs. There are different generations. Right now, it's a great pleasure for me to play in the same band with my son, and, yeah, and to pass something to him. Yeah. But there are other different people. For example, in the '90s, when we did 18:00performance, Steinlauf, Michael Steinlauf came to Warsaw to give lectures about "Dybbuk" to Uniwersytet Warszawski, Warsaw University, and he got to know that kids made "Dybbuk" in Sejny, in small town, in former synagogue, and he came. So that's how we met with Michael Steinlauf, who we invited to this restaurant, Skarpa, and we especially asked everybody to prepare kosher food for him, and he ordered żeberka. (laughter) So it was for me like, what?! You know, ribs. Yeah, and great person like Michael Steinlauf, who is from this world, who speaks 19:00Polish and lives somewhere behind the ocean right now, and with whom we feel together very -- we feel very close to each other. The same with Michael Alpert, who we met building up the project on klezmer music here, which is called the Musicians' Raft, between New York and Sejny. And the same with David Krakauer. First time when we got to Kraków, we were playing on the same stage with Krakauer, who had -- we began the finale concert in Kraków. And Krakauer was like a star, playing with his trio. For me, it was like -- I knew Klezmatics, of course, and I knew the archive recordings, like Dave Tarras. When he started the 20:00trio, it was like Dave Tarras playing the same way -- accordion, drums, and clarinet -- and clarinet virtuoso. So it was, for me, who was fascinated with klezmer, you know, it was a great experience. And I want to tell you a few words, because you asked about mentors. It was magical moment, because we met after the finale concert. There was raining, like how, and afterwards we had in Austeria building -- right now it's called -- it is in the corner of Kazimierz -- of Szeroka Street. It was called at that time Austeria. And upstairs there was supper for performers, and we ate something and started to play. People 21:00started to dance, of course, and Krakauer joined us, and we were playing for whole night together. And he said that he want to come, simply, next year. And he came. We started together a project, Musicians' Raft, yeah.

CW:And what instrument do you play?

MM:I play double bass. And mandolin, recently.

CW:What were your first sort of reactions to this music, in particular, the Jewish music?

MM:Ooh, that was, you know, I was performing from very early years, from fifth grade of primary school, the rock music. And that moment, first moment when I 22:00got to White Synagogue in Sejny, when I heard traditional music from Transylvania, it was for me like -- I felt that it is the same energy. Like, I'm coming back from rehearsal with my bass guitar, where I was playing with distortion, with effects, with high volume. And I got to the synagogue, where they were playing trio -- just cello, folk cello, and two violins -- and it was for me like the same energy. And later on I got to -- after we worked on "Dybbuk" -- it was mid-'90s -- it was very hard to get this type of music. There were no internet. So our friends, they were just bringing CDs from Berlin, from 23:00different other places. And I found a few CDs of American bands, mostly, and not only. And first, what I've heard and what I started fascinate in klezmer music was a recording of duo, I remember, very traditional, of clarinet and cimbalom -- hammered dulcimer -- and accordeon duo, Joel Rubin and Joshua Horowitz. I loved them. It was called the Bessarabian Symphony. And that was so beautiful for me that everything started from that. Then later on I got these records of 24:00the Brave Old World, and we met in Kraków -- the quartet, with Michael Alpert, Alan Bern, Stu Brotman, and Kurt Bjorling. It was great experience, because I love their music. And then we started to do these klezmer projects here in Sejny, and we brought these musicians here. So that was -- that is still a great experience, and great passion.

CW:What is the reaction of all these names you're mentioning, like the top of the klezmer Jewish music world, what is their reaction when they come here and see what's going on here?

MM:We built up our idea of these projects on experience of Americans who came 25:00from New York, and we realized when they came that their roots are here. For example, Alpert's family is from Malaty, and it's nothing more than fifty kilometers from here. The same with Krakauer -- his family is from Belarus and from L'vov. I mean, basically, in general, it's the same region. So we talked about this connection, which is -- sometimes we think it's lost. It's like przerwane, jak to powiedzieć [Polish: interrupted, how to say it], which --

CW:Cut.

MM:Cut off. We think -- we thought to rebuild it, this klezmer music rescued 26:00because of immigration stream. Like, people were taking with them -- for example, to New York -- all what they had here. Also music. And only because this music became, in the '30s and '20s, like pop music. And Columbia Records made a lot of LPs with this music. Only because of that, this music from Bucharest, from Warsaw, from Belarus, from Lithuania rescued. And we were thinking to build up the circle, to bringing back here again. And that's what 27:00we're doing in last twenty years here in Sejny, in our musical workshop with Sejny Theater performance -- I mean Sejny Chronicles performance, and different other things -- for example, by giving lessons, history lessons, to the kids from Sejny schools. Yeah. And it is special way of giving history lessons, because we don't teach about the historical process in general, about Holocaust, about bringing Jews here. We tell about particular people, you know.

For example, about the guy who came to Sejny, and he entered the synagogue when 28:00we had the rehearsals of "Dybbuk." And sixty years before, when he was escaping from Sejny, he got to know that all of his family died. He cursed this place, and he said that he would never come back here. Max Furmansky, I'm talking about. He's a guy whose family, all of his family died, one day, because people from Sejny were gathered in the market, packed to the train, to Treblinka, and the rest was killed one day -- shot in the head. And he escaped to Warsaw, then to Budapest. He wanted -- his only dream in Sejny synagogue was to become a cantor. So in Budapest he started his lessons, and then when Germans came to 29:00Budapest he somehow escaped to Buenos Aires, and most of his life he spent in Buenos Aires. Then he moved to San Diego, California, right now living in Israel. And his children -- he was always telling about Sejny for his kids, about his roots, about all of this stuff, about how beautiful this place is, and also about that he needed to run. He was good runner. And that was his blessing, because when they were playing with his team, Jewish team, with Poles or 30:00Lithuanians, they were beaten. Either they lose or won. So that was the story.

Also, he was the one who came, and he taught, tell -- told us about the synagogue, how it looked inside, because we didn't have any photos from inter of synagogue. And he told us about the river, about girls here. He met with his girlfriend from Sejny after sixty years. He sung kaddish-- I think he was the first one after war who sung kaddish in Sejny cemetery, Kirkut, because it's 31:00only here right now. Germans cut off all of the matzevahs [tombstones] right after they came, and they built up the roads of matzevahs, so it's just on the hill. And he got to this hill where all of his ancestors are, and he sang Kaddish. And I was witnessing that. And I was witnessing that he came, and he was so thrilled that he spoke only Spanish. And after three days, after sixty years, he started to speak Polish, understood everything and then started to use words. And he's a great cantor. He was a rabbi and cantor in Buenos Aires for most of his life.

And for me it was -- great honor to play together concert in synagogue. He was 32:00singing traditional Yiddish songs, or cantorial songs. And we were playing as klezmer band. And last year, when we invited him, we had twentieth anniversary of our work -- twenty-second anniversary, actually -- and we invited him, and he came. He came after stroke, and most of his body was paralyzed, and he was singing great. We arranged concert for him. He started with a pianist three songs, three cantorial songs. He did great. And afterwards we prepared a special concert dedicated to him, composed by Raphael Rogiński, which are music for Kabbalistic poetry from Spain, sung by girl in English. (laughter) So that was 33:00the last concert with Max. He's still living, of course. And we got into, I would say, friendship together, yeah, with Max, with his wife Hilda, their children. I remember great meeting here with Shevah Weiss. There only one matzevah in Sejny, Kirkut cemetery. It's a monument dedicated for Sejny Jews, in memory of Sejny Jews, which was -- [Polish - 00:33:53] --

AI:Which was open.

MM:-- open by Shevah Weiss -- he was then ambassador of Israel in Poland -- and 34:00Max Furmansky. And I remember this great meeting. They were having meeting for kids from the schools, and together they started the meeting. They started with singing Polish anthem in Polish together, and then Hatikvah. That's the moments which were, for me, getting new knowledge about this place. I would say it was a kind of renewal for me, if I use the right word. Yeah, that's only -- I'm telling you about Jewish past, but there are also the same tales about German 35:00coming to sing, going to sing. Yeah, that's how we work. That's my experience.

CW:So when you walk around the town now, how has learning all of this changed the way you see the buildings, the place?

MM:No, I -- hm. Changed, hm. The best is get out from here for a few months and get back to see it once more. But how it changed the place? It changed language, 36:00I would say, is the first thing, because right now the synagogue for me, yeshiva, where we play music, maybe it's not like yeshiva the scholar thing -- school -- but it's a special place where we learn still. This place, Hebrew gymnasium, house of the Borderland, where I work and spend most of my time. Yeah, and other places. Also church, also people who are from here, like Morris Rosenfeld was born just ten kilometers from here, in Boksze. Yeah. Right now, it's great opportunity, because we are going to compose new music for his 37:00poetry, because right now the Socialistic, Bundistic -- I don't know how to say it -- poetry, is very actual in these crisis times. (laughter) You know, for example, as an orchestra we're playing a great song by him. It's called "Mayn Yingele." It's about the situation when the father is going out from home when the kids are sleeping, and he's getting back from work when they went to bed. It's like it is going -- it's present situation, yeah.

CW:Okay. Is there a performance that you're particularly proud of?

MM:I am proud of "Dybbuk." I have a big nostalgia connected with this performance. We were traveling a lot with that. And mostly, I have great memories with performing this in synagogue, in white, empty synagogue, and working on that, on this whole process of working. Klezmer music, it is special -- it was special -- it is still special experience to play it in small places in Poland, where, like in Sejny, there are still Jewish remains, like in Włodawa, in beautiful synagogue, or in Bobowa. We are going actually this year -- it will be special event. I strongly recommend to you to come. In Bobowa, 39:00there from Bobover Hasidim, this year they're going to be celebrated anniversary, hundredth anniversary of this great wedding of Tzadik Halberstam daughter. And the city hall of Bobowa is preparing the whole day with reconstruction. You know, there is this whole day where Hasidim from Kraków came. There was one special train with them. They came with the groom, and the Halberstam daughter was waiting there, and the orchestra was playing. And there's very beautiful old photos from this wedding. And we're going to take -- with the kids from Sejny -- the whole twenty people in orchestra, we're going to take part in reconstruction of this wedding. It will be fun. (laughter) And I 40:00hope somebody from New York, for example, from Bobover Hasidim are going to come, or Israel, even though they live here now.

CW:Wow. I have a few more, but do you have a question?

AI:I do. I would like to you about Polish literature, because I know that you studied Polish literature. And I would like to ask you if there's any impact what Polish literature gave on you about Jewish topics.

MM:Yeah, of course. There are a lot. I mean, I would first, what I would mention is Konwicki, Tadeusz Konwicki, who is actually the writer of my type of -- of 41:00such places like this, like Vilnius, for example. He's from Vilnius. And his landscape is this landscape. And he's also writing about this loss of the world after the Second World War, and that has shown a great trace of Jewish culture. Of course Miłosz, Czesław Miłosz, because he was from here, also, somehow. Krasnogruda, here. It was a manor house of his aunt's that he spent in '30s his summer vacations, and his poetry also connected to his translations of psalms, 42:00or Song of Songs, very beautiful in Polish, to Polish. What else? Yeah, in Polish literature, hm. There are a lot, but I don't have any particular -- what was very special for me -- it is not only -- I mean the literature in general -- very special for me, it was novels by Grigory Kanovich, yeah, which actually our Borderlands publishing house published first book which was published by our office, and was a book by Grigory Kanovich, "Koziołek za dwa grosze [A goat for 43:00two pennies]," very beautiful novel. Yeah. And Singer, when I was getting to "Dybbuk." Singer was special.

CW:How do you see yourself as an artist, as a teacher, in transmitting culture to younger generations?

MM:Oh, that's a big -- oj, Boże, zaczynam myśleć po polsku i później mi ciężko po angielsku [Polish: oh, God, I'm starting to think in Polish and then it's difficult for me to say it in English]. I start to think in Polish, and it's hard to speak English now. (laughter) It's a great odpowiedzialność --

AI:Responsibility.

MM:-- yeah, responsibility. For example. I have a kind of lecture, or it's a 44:00play for children from kindergarten, or lecture, or lesson, with kids and -- with youth about Jewish culture, about Jewish past of Sejny. And then I speak about the most important symbols, or synagogue, or other different things, but strongly connected to my place, to Sejny. I tell them about Dominicans, who invited Jews to Sejny, who built up the first synagogue for them. I tell them about this moment in history when the first Torah was brought to synagogue by Dominican monk and a senior rabbi. And I tell them about Max and the Holocaust, 45:00especially taught in perspective of this only one guy and his family. And it's a very beautiful story, because it's based on a photo, because he said he's convinced that the photo, which was taken few days before what happened in Sejny when they were taken to Treblinka, that it was a kind of a faith for his family and for him, because everybody -- twenty people in front of the Sejny house, they're watching the camera, and only him, he was watching somewhere else. And he said he's convinced that it was faith in this photo for his family. And I 46:00tell them about -- for people, for youngs from Sejny, and what I've heard before. Yeah, it's a great responsibility, and I have a feeling that it must be done as good as it can. And also I dance and sing with them Yiddish songs, which is both in Yiddish and Polish, "Az der rebe zingt, az der rebe zingt, zingn ale khsidim [Yiddish: When the rebbe sings, when the rebbe sings, all the Hasidim sing], Kiedy rebe śpi, tańczy, śpiewa -- śpiewają wszyscy chasydzi [Polish: When the rebbe sleeps, dances, sings -- when the rebbe sings, all the Hasidim sing], un az der rebe tantst [Yiddish: and when the rebbe dances]," you know, both in Polish and in Yiddish. And they're learning, and it's fun. Also for 47:00students from universities, and to then -- we play two instruments, accordion and trumpet, and we dance Hasidic dances. Great. I love it, actually. (laughter) That's why I work here as educator, also I would say.

CW:What do you think we can learn, people can learn from the history here?

MM:Hm. That nothing is -- nic nie jest trwałe --

AI:Nothing is stable. Nothing is forever.

MM:-- nothing is stable. Nothing is, you know -- nothing could be built to be 48:00perfect. Nothing's perfect. Everything could be ruined one day, after hundreds of years building up. Actually, the twentieth century for this place, these few years of wars, it is like a ruin of civilization of here, from sixteenth century to today. And sometimes if you see the forgotten bridges, or empty temples, it's like the fact that this civilization was ruined, and that this connection with 49:00people also. I'm not sure, really, about that -- I'm not sure that everything -- a multicultural society lives together. I know that there are boundaries, you know. I know that there are ghettos. It's normal. But a special experience from here is that this lack, this brak tych ludzi tutaj --

AI:The lack of this people.

MM:-- Powoduje, że ci którzy pozostali czują się w jakiś sposób specjalny. Czują ten, to jest ten ból który się ma po uciętej ręce, czy po 50:00amputowanej ręce --

AI:The lack of this people makes this place very special, and this is just kind of -- but special in a very strange way, because this is this kind of pain that you feel when your hand is cut off from you.

MM:And you still feel the hand, you know? Jak to się nazywa [What is it called]? It's phantom?

AI:Um-hm.

CW:Phantom.

AI:Phantom hand, yeah.

MM:I felt it when I was speaking with my grandparents, with grandparents from here. It is special, yeah.

CW:Well, I'm just so grateful for you to take the time. I have one more question -- if you have any advice to younger generations.

MM:I don't feel so old as to give advices for younger generations. (laughter) 51:00For kids, for my kids, what I would say for my ten-year-old boy, to get to know, not to give judgment but first to get to know. I was in such a situation. I was very close to the people who wrote graffiti on walls, "Jude raus [German: Jews out]," anti-Semitic, without Jews. What does it mean? It's very special for Poland, for Polish people. And yeah, first, to get knowledge, and then to give judgment.

CW:Great. Well, a sheynem dank, a hartsikn dank [thank you very much, thanks very much].

MM:A sheynem dank.

CW:Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]