Keywords:art; childhood; Greek music; guitar; high school; Jewish music; Johnny Lee Hooker; music; rebetika; rebetiko; Roma music; sculpture; The Doors
CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney, and today is May 5th, 2013, we're here
in Sejny, Poland, and I'll let you pronounce your own name so I don't mess itup.
RAPHAEL ROGINSKI: Raphael Roginski.
CW: We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's
Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?
RR: Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
CW: Thank you. Okay, just to start, can you tell me a little bit about what
you know about your family background?
RR: Well, I know -- it's not too much, but, I was born as a refugee, in Germany.
And my -- this is what I know, it's a couple of things, because we spend six 1:00years, after when I was born, and my mother had a divorce with my father, so wecome back to Poland, and stories about these Jewish ancestors, stay mostly inGermany, because my mother, she's half Jewish and half Uzbeki and Tatar. Sowhen I was born, I know about my family everything, which is not popular inPoland, because people mostly they know about especially Jewish roots, theyknow, sometimes, they know by accident, that family, they had some conflict with 2:00the mother or something, and she's screaming, "You are like a Jew" or something. So it's always something very weird in Poland, that you know about so, yourancestors. So, in Germany, I was born in an amazing place, it was Frankfurt,which is, now it's a typical city, but at '70s and '80s it was a, something like-- island full of refugees from around the world, especially Eastern Europe,very big -- and Yugoslavian community. And Jewish from around the world, butespecially from Eastern Europe. And this was the last time when Jewish people 3:00spoke Yiddish. So I heard this language, and it was mix of a couple oflanguages in my house, so I started speaking some language, I think, when I wasfour, or something, because it was too much languages. So my father, becausehe was born before the war, he remember Yiddish, it was his language, firstlanguage, I think, maybe Polish too, but I don't know. And with his friends,they made something like a shtet [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewishcommunity] tradition, but it was something different. And this what we knowfrom books, you know, this romantic view of shtet. This was typical shtet,but with the old problems. But something new happened there. People after 4:00the war, they wanted to live like Janis Joplin or someone like this, they wantto keep everything very strong, and so they -- this community of my father, theyhad -- they gambling a lot, they have a lot of women, mostly much younger thanthey are, and they -- it was amazing. For me, the culture, from this reasons,Jewish culture is something much more open and completely outside of thismythology of Jewish culture. For me, for example, my father was a gambler, buta very serious gambler. He played for houses, cars, and even wives sometimes, 5:00not my mother, but -- (laughs) it happened. And they spoke in all Yiddish, thegambling, and I saw this. My childhood is mostly cards, my mother played, andI, because my father, he had these traditions, so he give me this. It was myfirst toy, was cards, so this is part of my Jewish traditions. And second isthis, that when they had problems, they always go to synagogue. For example,when I was born, my father -- in Germany, they have a law that you have to findsome important person in a city, and this person signs your bor-- 6:00
CW: Birth certificate?
RR: Yeah, yeah. So mine, this important person for my birth certificate was
the rabbi of Frankfurt, so it's funny, but generally, I, this, completelyoutside religion. My father, even that he have only Jewish friends, he don'twanted to be recognized as a Jew. So that's, of course, he was typical. Evenfrom these reasons that he was born before the war, so for him, this world wasmuch more normal, you know?
CW: Did he ever talk about his life before the war, or --
RR: Yeah, but he -- generally, we had -- after six years when I was born we came
back to Poland, so the Polish government, they cancelled our passports, with my 7:00mother. So, when I goes to the school, they sent some letter to school that Iam a spy. You know, I have seven years, something like that. But they, youknow, we had very big problems in Poland when we come back. And I got incomplex relation with my father, because he wrote some letters to us, but afterhe had the choice, you know, write the letters, and missing all the time, and,or forgot about us. So he took the second choice. So we didn't have contactfor almost twenty years, something like that. And after we met, and after oneyear, he died. So, during this one year I had some possibility to ask about 8:00something, you know, but he had the typical trauma, because his parents, mygrandparents, the Germans, they killed them, and he saw this, you know. So,this first trauma, and general ghetto, and after he lives in the underground,and he was -- with the help of my second grandmother, whose name is Roginsky, hesurvived the war. So, this what I know, it's a couple of things, but nothingconcrete. I know the date, but we don't have papers or something like that,because everything was destroyed. I know names, but I never even madesomething with some research about names, because for me it's -- what can I do 9:00with much more names?
CW: Yeah. So -- can you describe a little bit about your home in Poland?
RR: After when we come back? Maybe I will describe, a little bit, the German
home, because it was an amazing place. Because, we had only one friend of --from a German, like Germans, but much more of these people, my father helped alot with resistance in Poland, so during the wartime, yes? The refugeescoming, and they slept mostly at our home. So it was amazing. And this wasone part of this house when I lived. And second is two Jews from Russia and 10:00Poland, and Jews who was born before the war, so this was, this Yiddish languageand everything happened there. And, for example, my uncle, I don't know, forexample, about some connection with this uncle, but he was, I think he wasfamily of my father. So, he was -- this can be a symbol of -- what this Jewishculture for me, when I speak about this uncle. He was small because becausethe Mengele, he -- what's the name, he keep the -- growing, yes? So, he waslike a normal person, not like a -- midget? But he was a normal, look -- but 11:00he was small. And very charm and, you know, an amazing man. And he had anumber of three-hundred-something, he was the first in Auschwitz, almost. Andhe was a very funny guy, he loved me a lot, and he always bought me somepresents, you know. I had an obsession about cars, so I collected cars, and Ihave over one thousand, mostly. So he was one of the part of my collection. And when you see this story, that the Mengele, and everything, it's traumatic,it's like some of the book about Holocaust, you know, typical story. But onthe other hand, he was a very funny guy, and he had an obsession about very bigGerman womans. Typical Nazi women, you know? He had a lot of lovers, even 12:00four at the same time. So for me, the Jewish culture is like this. It's notonly book about Holocaust, it's something that people after Holocaust, theylive, and they have some life, and my life in Germany was very fun, you know? It was amazing how it mixed with the shtet tradition, people from the shtet,who survived in some, you know, very contemporary town, and it was amazing, thiscrash, it was something like a crash. And my uncle, second uncle, who survivedthe war in -- jak jest "piec"? Boże, zapomniałem. Taki na chleb, wiesz.[Polish: What is "oven" in English? God, I forgot. To bake the bread.]
RR: Inside, yes, oven, yes. Like, the ovens for bread, like, it's a big one.
So he survived there, and he was -- he always had the same suite -- you know,suit, yes, with the hat. And he spoke in every language, but not in onelanguage, it was a mix of a couple of languages, it was amazing. So, it was afunny story, and so, of course, this was traumatic, but the trauma coming to me,you know, after a couple of years. But, this is the second story. So, when Icome back to my house, my family in Poland --
CW: Wait, before you do that, can you just describe what your home looked like?
What was --
RR: We had a couple of houses, and flats. Because my mother, my father, he
14:00played, you know, so he lost, sometimes, home, after he wins, or -- everythingchanged. I remember a situation where we lived in a hotel for working classpeople, like very poor people, but beside this hotel, my father parked two verynice cars. But he waiting for how to sell them, these cars. Because he wincars, but he lost flat -- house. (laughs)
CW: What was the -- was he working as well?
RR: Yeah, he worked -- this is the story on the second, nice story -- he
worked, he had a couple of works. Generally he gambling, but he had -- Iremember he had a shop with the cheese, like a luxury cheese shop. And, but he 15:00had trauma after the war, and it was normal that he -- sometimes he came back tohome and he laying in the bed two weeks for sometimes. He drank only -- hedrank, but only water, he never drank alcohol. He drank, and he laying, andnever talk to us. So we knew it's about this, that it's something from thistime. And he had a second, I remember the second work, he had, in the mainstreet, now it's a very luxury street in Frankfurt, but in the '70s, '80s, itwas something like a -- like a place for sailing men. Marynarz [Polish: 16:00sailor] is sailing men? Like, you know, with a lot of burdels [Polish:brothels] you know, and -- jak jest, Boże, zapomniałem [Polish: and how doyou say, oh God, I forgot]. Hooker house? No. Yeah. So my father, he -- youknow, because the Jewish people, they wanted to have some fast success, so they,mostly they, it was a, they had a, you know, burdels. So my father --
CW: Brothel.
RR: -- yes, his friends, he had, and my father was a -- Boże, nie wiem jak
jest "szef" [Polish: God, I don't know what "chief" is] -- chief of this house,or something. But in a -- no, it's funny, because, for example, I remember, Ihave a teddy bear from a very famous hooker from Frankfurt, and which -- sheremember Nazi time, and we she was a lover of someone like Hesse, or someone. But my father, he was open. Even my uncle, the small one. For them it was 17:00normal that people from Wehrmacht coming there, and everything was crazy. And,the second -- this was my first meeting with Israel, because one room was alwaysclosed, and nobody coming there, only my father, who took food there, and heleave there beside the doors. And after, when we met, after twenty years, hetold me that this room was a room for Mossad. Because the street, now it's avery luxury, and main street in Frankfurt, but at this time, it was, everythingstarted to be important in Germany, and in Frankfurt, so they had some point forlandscape, I don't know. They took someone in this room, so this was my first 18:00meeting with the name Israel, that Israeli lived there. So Israeli, for me,was people who live in the room permanently, one room. (laughs) And what, after?
CW: Well, I don't know, is there anything -- any other great -- I mean, any of
the refugees that were staying in your house that you remember particularly?
RR: Yes, it was, when I think about this, it looks something like "Twin Peaks,"
this series, you know this film? It's something like "Naked Lunch," orsomething like that. Like, everything was a little bit dark, and with a redlight. And this, for me, this is Jewish culture. Of course, I like this 19:00mystical things in Jewish culture in general. Not even religion, but generalculture. But generally, you know, for me this culture is something like aPolanski film of "Chinatown," something very dark. And I remember a lot ofpeople, very weird people. I remember my father friend, he was fromYugoslavia. He was a Sephardi Jew, and he had -- he didn't have -- what's the-- hands, only fists, from here. You know, and when I was a child and I lookat people like this, like my uncle was small, hooker who was -- who looks weird. 20:00 Everything was very weird, and completely multicultural, because even the Jewsfrom Poland and Russia was different. I remember one guy, I don't know who,maybe this was my family too, but at the end of '70s, in Austria, they had avery big scandal with someone stealing some purse, or something like this, andthis was my uncle. (laughs) He lives in our house sometimes, with his wife. She was typical Jewish religion, with the peruke [Polish: wig].
CW: Sheytl [Yiddish: traditional women's head covering (wig)].
RR: Yeah, yeah. And, but he was completely open. And in general, these
21:00people, it was different than mafia, it was old mafia, like they have a verystyle, a big style. He was very sophisticated in this. So I think -- Ilearned a lot from this. My music, general Jewish music is from there, andgeneral, a couple of things in my life coming from there. For example, this,how to be -- zaraz, muszę przypomnieć sobie polskie słowo [Polish: wait asecond, I need to think of it in Polish] -- how to be proud from what you do,something like this. And how to take responsibility for this what you do in 22:00life. Because they -- even that they gambling, they have some style. Likecrafters, like people who made something by hands. And it's amazing, theythink about themselves as not artists but crafters, something like that. Soyeah, this is my first six years.
CW: So when you say that you learned a lot from that time, can you express sort
of what it was that you learned?
RR: Especially, I learned this that I am always open, for people. For me, I
never had something like, I need some time for -- to accept some other race, or 23:00something like that. For me, it was completely normal, and this was firstthing which was very hard for me and my mother, that this country still, it isstill multicultural, but we don't have even maybe one percent of Polish blood,but our ancestors maybe lived here, one thousand years, something like that. But generally, for -- in this reason, I felt -- I knew it about my ancestors,at least that I'm a little bit different, but generally we felt like Polishpeople. So for me, this missing to this what was in Frankfurt, it's still 24:00something like gasoline for my activity in art. Generally about everything,because I play Jewish music, but I play a lot of other musics. This, and --this, it's very important that I never had something like Jewish culture, neverwas for me something saint, you know, it's a culture, nothing more. But ofcourse it's complicated, because nobody survived, and someone have to dosomething with this what we have like a synagogue or something. Like here inSejny, they took some responsibility for this history here, of Jewish people,and it's amazing, it's happened only in Poland, you know, Israel, where I was 25:00live, when I talk about this with the people, they never believe that somethinghappened like this. They even don't understand this. So it's very funny. But generally for me, it's very plastic? Plastic culture, you know, it'snot -- jak jest taki "sakrament," wiesz, coś stałego, wiesz, takie [Polish:how do you say "sacrament," you know, something that you can refer to]?
AI: It's like a sacral place.
RR: Yes, it's not sacrum [Polish: sacred] for me, yes. It's always, this that
I have this background from Frankfurt and this understand that I live today, notbefore the war, it helped me to do something contemporary, I think. 26:00
CW: So, I want to move on, but first, how did your parents end up in Frankfurt?
RR: How they arrive there?
CW: Yeah.
RR: Because '68, you know. They met at '70, but my father was without work,
and he was with some girlfriend in Mazowsze Dance Theater, something like that,it's very close to our town, Podkowa Leśna, and they met in the train,something like that. And they dating, and after two years maybe, he wrote onthe newspaper, his story, you know, when you have a text and this white borderor something, this space, he wrote story like this on the newspaper, on each 27:00side, and this that he have to go outside Poland. And he escape. So she readthis story and she knew before that he have too much Jewish friends, but it wasnormal for her. But she -- maybe -- she knew it about his Jewish. But maybenot about name, or something, because he had a different names. Roginski, it'snot my true name.
CW: Do you have a question?
AI: I have just a question about March '68, because that's a really significant
date for your family. Do they were talking to you about it when you lived in Frankfurt?
RR: No, no they -- never, never, never. We never -- generally my family, it's
28:00a very unusual in Poland, because they never spoke about something, bad thingsin the past. They always, they lived for the next day. They had somedepression stuff, but they never made something, "Oh yeah, we had '68, so we arevictims" or something. I think we know about, we have some intuition, and ithelped for us that we never, that we are never surprised of foolishness of theworld. For us it's -- I think my father he missing to Poland, but I never grew 29:00up like a son of victim. It was even before, even about the war, andanti-Semitic at his work, because he was a typical look, Jewish look, soeverybody recognized. And yes, so yes, we never had the cult of tragedy.
CW: You mentioned already a little bit, but -- sort of how -- what it was like
for you once you moved to Poland, and that big change in terms of --
RR: It was second thing that I started live not as a typical person, because
30:00when we come back, I come back to Podkowa Leśna which is amazing place, mygrandfather was one of the founders of this place 100 years ago. And it was aplace in the forest, it's a town in the forest, and it was built by businessmenand artists, artists in Poland. And, so I grew up in some amazing place in theforest, and here, we had always vacationed like three months, or even fourmonths sometimes in the Suwalszczyzna region so I live completely outsideWarsaw and these lines for meat or something like this, for some food. Because my grandfather, he was completely against communism, but he had some 31:00deal with the communist people, so he was very rich, but we never used thismoney for us, we always shared. My grandmother especially, she shared witheverything, you know, food, we always had some people at our very big house, youknow, like a dwór [Polish: mansion]. It's not castle but --
AI: Palace.
RR: Ah yes, like a palace, yes. We had, because during the communist time,
when you had too much money, you have to hiding this money, so mostly, mygrandfather, he bought a lot of antiques, so I grew up with a lot of antiques. We had one room, was completely only for antiques, nobody lives there. So,art deco, and everything was there. And we had an amazing -- I grew up with my 32:00three brothers, cousins, and we had forest outside our garden, and everythingwas -- when I recognized a lot of things, like people lives before the war inPoland. Like writers write about their childhood, sometimes it was looksimilar. Like, we had a niania.
AI: Nanny.
RR: Ah, nanny, yes. But everything, in a way, everything had some flavor of war
sometimes. But, as I told you, it was never like, we never talked about this. 33:00 But we had a lot of friends who was victim of war. Like my aunt, was -- shehad children, and the bomb explode beside her, and she had the children in herhands, you know, like that, and the children died. And she always had the --she was, until the end of the life, she was alone, and she had something likethis that sometimes she made something like that, (extends his arms as thoughholding a child) and crying, you know, and for a while. And we growing withthis, because this is Poland, it's not that one nation had some tragedy. Like, 34:00my grandfather was in a concentration camp, my grandmother was in -- powstanie warszawskie?
AI: Warsaw Uprising.
RR: Yes, Warsaw Uprising. She had a lot of scars. And the amazing thing in
my life, in my school, I had a teacher, and she was -- she lost everybody fromher family, during the war, and she was completely against Germans. And Iremember, I had maybe ten years, something like that, and she was very -- shewas a teacher of history, and she was very angry for us, and something,something will happen during the lessons. And she asked us something like,"You are Polish?" Yes. "You are Polish?" Yes. Something like, and I wascompletely against everything, from the beginning, so she asked me, and I told 35:00her that I am a German. And she was very angry. But I didn't know aboutthis, about her story. And she took me outside the class, and she told methat, "You even don't know who you are." Something like that. And after manyyears, my mother told me that she and my second grandmother, she helped mygrandmother, the second grandmother, survived my father. So it's amazing. Soeverything was by accident, but -- and she live. And I want to go to her, butshe's very old, she's, I think one-hundred-something. So, yes, and ingeneral Podkowa Leśna it was amazing place, with forests, and we always -- our 36:00main play was war, you know, wartime. We killing Germans all the time. Andwe build base from underground, and after the snow we had some igloo. Wealways shooting to the Germans. All the time. (laughs) So this is -- butit's typical in Poland, everybody playing like that. And we -- I remember playabout ghetto, that we are -- but I don't know how, but we made some uprising ina ghetto, as children, but I never heard about this ghetto uprising, but we hadsome idea. And during this time, I had this forest story, and I recognizedafter many years that I never grew up with religion, so I recognized myself as a 37:00transcendental. So when I read Emerson and the second transcendentalists, it'smine. It's something, like, I know this from here, Sejny, andfrom Podkowa because we always had some very strong connection with nature,and during twenty-five, maybe, I lived with my brother in a teepee, here, closeto the -- in general we spent a lot of time in the forest, we slept there. Theforest was something like a town for us, for another people. And we never hadcontact with the Pod-- with Warsaw. It was only visit some family or someone,but never -- even when I started playing guitar, we had some very big community 38:00of hippie, and we played there, and it was amazing. And in Podkowa, I hadclose friends, from when I was child, and we spent a lot of time, and we stillhave a relation, and it's amazing, because after many years, we recognizeourself that everybody have some Jewish roots, but we never talk about this. But we've been very close, and first dance, everything was -- not only, butin general, the main, I think eighty percent of my close friends have someJewish roots, so it's nice, I think, funny.
CW: Was there music around in your family, in your home?
RR: No, never, maybe in my father's family, but I don't know too much. But
art, it was my first, my first school after the -- Boże, jak jest"podstawówka" [Polish: God, how do you say "primary school"]?
AI: After primary school.
RR: Yeah, yeah, so my first high school was art, I was a sculpture, sculpturist.
CW: Sculptor.
RR: So, but at the same time, I had my first guitar, I buy here in the forest,
from some guy in the army, so I had the choice, so music was the winner. So --yeah, but I never had some meeting with the music. But I, when, my firstmeeting was a very strong, it was the music of The Doors, and John Lee Hooker, 40:00it was my first CDs, LPs, yes, so it was very early record of John Lee Hooker,and I think, you know, from this time, my story's completely, you know,connected with this music, even when I play, rebetika, or gypsy, or Jewishmusic, I always play something from The Doors and John Lee Hooker, so yes, itwas very strong. I started playing on a tennis racket, yes? One year, maybe,something like that. And I bought my first guitar close to this place where wetalk.
CW: Can you tell me about where we are right now?
RR: Yes, it's amazing place, the one place in Poland where people never act
41:00strange of their soil. And they still live there from ancient time. And itwas very white place, even, I think it's much more open at the beginning of 20thcentury, but at the beginning of 20th century, you had bears here, and animalsfrom ancient times. And it was completely closed region. With very originalmythology and everything. So, this place, for me, it's a very strong part ofmy identity. I learned a lot from these people, from people from here, 42:00especially during the '80s, when I don't remember shop where we bought somefood, I remember much more when we hunting, with the children even, it wasamazing. And I remember cows in the forest, because they don't have fields, sothey put the cows to the forest, and we running łapać -- catching the cows. And I drank milk from a cow in the forest, it was amazing. So it's -- and Idiving a lot, for hunting fish, and they learned me a lot. And it wasdifferent than 100 years ago, but generally they, I understand that we have to 43:00find some balance between this what we hunting and this what we take from aforest, it was amazing. Because it was my first, very natural lesson aboutecology. And yes, this place is full of magic myths, and everything, it'sclose to Lithuania, and the exchange of these pagan traditions, it's a lot ofpagans, like pagan traditions. Even when you see some sculpture on thecrossroads or something, it's mostly pagan. So, yes, this is the Suwalszczyzna.
CW: Yiddish language, did you ever use it yourself?
RR: Not, only when I was, I learned letters, because, when I started playing I
never find some notes, or some traditions. So I have to learn letters forrecognize who wrote something, or something like that. So this I know, but Inever spoke in Yiddish. But my father, of course, and my mother, a little bit. But, Yiddish for me, it's a language which was -- I took main lesson from aYiddish language, for how to play Jewish music, because the sound of Yiddish is-- generally this music coming from a synagogue, where you play very open form, 45:00it's not like you have bars or something like that. It's the words, it's veryimportant, and you have to sing this, like it's the same like a Muslimtradition, like you have ornaments and everything. And after, in the Yiddishtradition, because this was Hebrew, in Yiddish tradition, there, the people tookstrictly from a synagogue this tradition, so Yiddish, it's a part of this music,it's not -- you never understand this music without some knowledge aboutYiddish. And this that I remember, this Frankfurt story, that the Yiddish was-- they used this not only in the poetry, it was poetry of the streets, mostly.[BREAK IN RECORDING]
AI: So my question is, Raphael, why you chose so many Yiddish words for your music?
RR: Yeah, because, it's some plan about find some space for another language in
Polish monoculture world, now. It's a monoculture. So my CDs are always, thetitles and the names from Yiddish. Because this what I can do with findsome -- kurczę, nie wiem jak to wytłumaczyć, takie bogatsze, żebywyglądało, że jest czegoś więcej [Polish: oh dear, I don't know how toexplain that I want to make it appear that there is more].
AI: To make this feeling that there is even more than in fact it is.
RR: Yes, than people expect, you know, that we have -- that we are in Poland,
and we are Polish people. So I find some way, in my opinion, that I show thatit's not true. Before the war you had newspapers in Lithuanian language,German, Yiddish, and everything. So you had a lot of letters, and yes,alphabets. So, yeah, this is the reason. It's only, because I don't have anidea for singing in Yiddish, so I have a -- I do this, what can I do.
AI: But your group is called Alte Zachen, why?
RR: It's a, I lived two years, almost, in Tel Aviv, and Alte Zachen is a term
48:00when people, mostly Arabs, they driving with the car, it's not a car -- to jestdorożka -- nie dorożka, tylko za koniem, wiesz [Polish: it is a carriage --not a carriage but behind the horse].
CW: Cart.
RR: Yeah, yeah, they have a horse and cart. Ah yes. So they always calling,
Alte zakhn, alte zakhn [Old things, old things]! And they made research forold thing, you know. And the second meaning of this, is that we play somethingold, but not only Jewish, because we mixing niguns [melodies] with music fromthe '60s, so we never play something contemporary, but we live today, so ingeneral it's -- I don't know, it's fun.
CW: So, going back a little bit in terms of music. Did you have any important
RR: It depends which one, but Jewish music, never, I never had a teacher. It's
because -- in part you don't have a tradition of Jewish music. And this whatwe know from United States, in my opinion it's a tradition from United States,it's not from here. Of course it comes from here, but they change, because itwas a tradition of people who wanted find some -- sposób [Polish: way].
AI: Some way?
RR: Some way to earn some money.
CW: In terms of -- you're talking about klezmer? American klezmer?
RR: Yeah, this is the term which was my main enemy, because I hate this term,
50:00because everything is a klezmer, but this not true, because klezmer tradition isone of the couple of traditions. So I never play klezmer music, and generally,klezmer tradition is the poorest tradition in Jewish culture. It's somethinglike this, even until the 80s, we used the term klezmer for people who play onweddings. So they play everything. And this what's happen in United States,they coming, people like Naftule Brandwein, and he play in Ukraine, and aftera couple of years, he changed his style to be much more jazzy, and this whatplaying Frank London, and people like this, it comes from Naftule Brandwein. 51:00 They have a stronger connection to jazz than we here, but we here, we don'thave tradition, so -- my teacher was a landscape, mostly. Like, I traveling alot in the shtetls, the places where I wanted to find some connection with theJewish traditions, and my childhood and everything, mixed together. But Iremember a lot of moments that I sitting beside some building, like here forexample. I remember this synagogue where it was a magazyn [Polish: warehouse]for -- nawóz [Polish: fertilizer]?
CW: Warehouse, yeah, for fertilizer.
RR: Yeah, yeah. So, I remember this, and -- but I felt something beside. And
this was my first meeting with this culture, and after I started recording these 52:00places, because I believe that I can hear something more, like this trainingthat you close the eyes and use, and this what happen outside. And first youlisten, you heard cars, but after, you know, you can hear something, what isfar, much more far. So this is -- this was my teacher for Jewish music. Andthis was my first, this what we talk about, is that I met trauma, first when Iwas twenty-two, something like that, when I start with Jewish music. And whenI met with this complete emptiness. But it's not possible to ask someone, what 53:00was before the war, or even how to play today, it's impossible. So mytraditions -- it's a work with the roots of this music, but generally, I alwaysfeel like I live today, in this surrealistic situation and I want to find someway to build some world. It's completely my world, I don't believe that wehave Jewish culture in Poland, it's not culture, because Jewish culture is -- ingeneral, culture is a meeting of people who growing with some traditions. Butwe don't have this one, but we have something very important too, but it's not,I think it's not a term culture, it's much more studies, or find some way to be, 54:00to find some connection with something what was happened before the war. It'svery important, but it's not culture for me. So I have a in a musicians, Ihave one friend who have the same problems like I, so it's not too much people.
CW: Can you just describe for a minute what the synagogue looked like when you
first saw it, when it was this warehouse?
RR: It was -- it's amazing, because in Poland it was normal, sometimes you find
some weird building, and it was a straż pożarna [Polish: fire brigade].
AI: Firemen.
RR: Fireman place, or something like that, and they rebuild a little bit, but
55:00after you saw some weird letters, you know, and -- no, but it was completelynormal. During the communism, it was forbidden to know about this. In the'80s it was much more easy, but not for children. I remember only building,nothing more. And my feelings, because someone told me that it was asynagogue, and I, what is this. And here was a postal?
AI: Post office.
RR: Yes, post office, and the second building was a factory of the shoes, and
so, this is Poland.
CW: Can you talk a little bit about your music? What is your vision with your
RR: First, in general, in my life, in music, I'm missing always to something.
Because I don't know what is this. When I was younger, I felt that it can besome culture, special culture, like, maybe Jewish or something, or hippieculture. But after I recognized that it's much more complicated, I know that Iam missing to some idea for life, like this transcendental philosophy or peoplewho had much more honor, honor?
AI: Honor.
RR: Honor. That they had much responsibility for life. I'm missing to strong
57:00people, like writers, after the war for example, in Poland. I love this period,you know, in Poland.
CW: Who are your favorite writers?
RR: I have a lot, like Czesław Miłosz of course, and I love poetry after the
war, like Iwaszkiewicz, Różewicz, it's nothing original, but I think they hadsome very important knowledge about war. I never met something similar tothis. After the war, it was amazing time for culture in Poland, until '70s. For example, I know the best theme about war, which is completely aboutsomething different than war, it's a symbol. It's a Polish film for me, it's 58:00named "Salto." So this film was my teacher. I saw this film, maybe 20times, something like that. So yeah, I think missing, longing to something,it's my root of everything. And I'm always on the road, I never -- I don'tknow, I'm still searching something, people, traditions. And I love music fromaround the world. Jewish music is one part, but I play a lot of music. Lasttime I recorded music of Bedouins, for example, in Israel. I still makingresearch of people. Like, not only musicians, composers, but in general, 59:00people. And I -- sometimes I use some biography to find some idea to how to beas a man and musician. So I think it's -- I have only this longing andintuition, nothing more, generally, in life.
CW: How long were you living in Israel?
RR: Two years almost. With breaks, because I sharing time between Poland and --
CW: And what was your motivation for going there?
RR: Oh, it's very hard story, because I had some experience with family. I had
60:00not wife, but girlfriend, and we had a child. And we took -- jak jest, niedivorce, ale jak się rozstają [Polish: how would you say, it's not a divorcebut when people break up].
AI: Separation.
RR: Yeah, separation. So I was completely destroyed after this.
AI: After you completely broke up with her?
RR: Yeah, yeah. Completely. You know, because I grew up as a child without
father, so for me it was very traumatic. So, I don't know, I bought ticket,it's nothing more. And I started live there. And I sharing time, like, Icame here to Poland for two weeks, and I spent with my son, and after threeweeks I have been in Israel. So it was completely crazy, but I live much more 61:00in Israel, I felt much more -- and I felt very strong connection. Of course,with this what was happened there, with this symbolic Zionism, it was veryimportant for me. The first meaning of this what can be Israel. But I hatereligion, so Israel is not for me. You know, Tel Aviv is different. Butgeneral, I speak about this because religion -- you always meet religion on yourway, in Poland and in Israel too. So I wanted to be outside. And religionalways asked me about this, "Who am I?" And I never want to find some idea forthis. And it's about passport in Israel, it's a very weird that this country 62:00is like outside, you know, you have a wall, the passport is a, you know, theprocedure? Yes, it's like racist, you know, it's very weird.
CW: Yeah.
RR: Oh, and sorry, but, I have one story about this, because it's amazing.
Because sometimes, you know, people are there, I don't talk about people likewe, but some people like from government, or city government or something, whenI had some meetings, they ask me about my identity. And I tell them that Ihave this and this. And why you don't have a passport? And I tell them that 63:00this procedure is very weird for me, that someone have to find some proofs formy identity. And I remember amazing story of Imre Kertész, the writer, he'sone of my gods from my panteon [Polish: pantheon]. So he had amazing story inAustria, when it was his first trip outside Hungary. And he visit somesynagogue. And of course, like always, you had some security there, andpolice. And they ask him, "What you want to do? Why you want to go outside-- inside?" And he tell them "Oh, because I'm a tourist," "And you areJewish?" "Yes." "Okay, give for us some proofs." And he write that I don't 64:00have, it's amazing, it's very symbolic. I don't have, and -- I don't know. Because it's a question about something more than papers. So, the writer whois main writer about Holocaust, he don't have a proofs. So for me, it's okay too.
CW: What is your take on the idea, and we can talk about more specifics later,
but just first about your idea of cultural revival?
RR: My idea is this. That we had a war, and we lost a lot of minorities. In
65:00Vilnius, you had eighty minorities. So, we always, in Poland, we always speakabout, Okay, we had the Germans, gypsies sometimes, but generally in the towns,for example, in Krakow. Okay, we had the Germans, Russians, Jewish, Poland,and something, and it's five. But in Vilnius, for example, you had eighty, inŁódź, it was similar. So, it's a question about who they are. And it'samazing, when you made research in Vilnius, you had the Eskimo people, forexample, a couple of tribes. It's amazing, so for me, I still live in thisplace, so for me, war, when I will use something that okay, it's finished ofsomething. Like people like to do something like that. So Germans, they are 66:00win, for example, that, okay, they kill everybody, so we think that we don'thave some past, or the past is not this what we have now. For me, it's some --some accident. But it's not cut from a -- because you still can feel a lot ofthings, you can find a lot of things here. So for me, it's some period, youknow, the war is some period. But when my father survived, when I was born,when people used that, everything we lost during the war, so who am I? Am I aghost or something like that? So it's for me, it's very important to find my 67:00space. I find this already, but when I was twenty-five, when I started to playJewish music, it was very important to find some connection with the past, butmostly I wanted to prove for people who came to the clubs that we have somethingmore than a monocultural country. And I know that we win with the Jewishculture and a couple of cultures, because I made something with the gypsies, youknow, people don't know too much about gypsies in Poland, but we had amazingtradition, and so, for me it's -- I think it's a contemporary time, it's not arevival. It's a -- I don't like this, I was always against festivals. I like 68:00festivals, but -- we had a -- at the beginning, we had some little fight withthis festival reality, because, we had -- I remember we've been very angry foreverything, well, not for Holocaust or something, but we, we had some mission,and I remember story of Marc Chagall, when he arrived in Paris, in hisbiography, he talked that he had some grymas [Polish: grimace].
AI: Wyraz twarz [Polish: facial expression].
CW: Drool, or spit?
RR: (overlapping dialogue; unclear). But he had something like that,
(grimaces) it's like he was angry, yes. Yeah, like (UNCLEAR). But I thinkit's something similar to us, he was angry. I don't know, I feel some 69:00connection with his position. But, so, we had -- I remember at the beginning,we've been like resistance of this music, and this culture. And I rememberthat festivals, and this reality, they hate us at the beginning. Because ourvision was different, and good, with a good quality. But they had a very-- Boże, "wygodny" [Polish: God, "comfortable"] --
AI: Yeah, they had a very comfortable feeling about --
RR: Yeah, because they had people from United States, embassy give them money,
so we have a festival, and what we need more? But we had a lot of questions,you know, about this, and the questions, for me it was very easy to ask about 70:00very -- Boże, jak jest [Polish: God, how does it go] -- controversial things,because this is my childhood and everything. For me it was -- I ask abouteverything, so everybody been angry for us.
CW: What were your questions?
RR: Excuse me?
CW: What were some of the questions?
RR: For example, about -- I remember we play music from towns, like Jewish
folklore from cities. And sometimes the text was about some hooker or someonelike this. So this was completely, this was border for these people from afestival reality, and people like writers, that they write about Holocaust andeverything, is hard, and we are in this. For example, for me, the title, "We 71:00from Jedwabne," it's some kind of symbol, that "we." I'm not from there, butthe woman who write this, for me, she felt some special -- like someone special,because she had some Jewish roots. In general, in Poland, still you have, butat this time it was a time of -- jak jest "fetyszyzacja" [Polish: How do yousay "fetishization"]?
AI: Fetishization.
RR: Yes, fetishization of this culture. You know that, okay, we, and you, and
something. Yes, you do something, you can do something with the Jewishculture, but we know, something later. So I hated this, and we fighting withthese people, and we asking them, what you know about this, because sometimes 72:00they coming to our concerts, and they told me after, Oh, it's not Jewish music. And I ask them, "What is Jewish music?" Because I never find some notes fromPoland, recordings, or something. So from where you have this knowledge aboutJewish music? Because I feel this, and so my feelings are different from yourfeelings? So, we had a lot of stories like this. And we fighting with thisfetishization, so our idea -- amazing idea, I don't know, it happened byaccident. But we play -- I come back to my childhood, I start to play inplaces for every -- jak jest wykluczonych, takich wyrzutków [Polish: thatpeople that are exluded, marginalized].
AI: Yeah, in very -- places, like, out of, on the -- marginal places.
RR: Yes, and the people who are -- who was marginal, like at beginning of this
73:00century, was the people outside, was gay, lesbians, and some crazy artists, andour career, it starts in places like this. We play everywhere, always in theunderground, and we play Jewish music. It's amazing, and people ask aboutthis, and we always talk about this, okay, we have this, you have this, and wehave this, and tomorrow we will play second concert with a gypsy tradition, orblues. So everything is ours, we don't have borders. So this band was, forme, this band, this movement, I think, small, but still, was first a movement 74:00who talk about this that Jewish culture is normal, you know, it's not, you know,it's something special in this culture, is this, that it's very eclectic, yes,that you have a lot of influences from another musics, music traditions. Butgenerally it's one of the cultures, and we always speak about this, so forpeople it was very controversial. Because second thing is this, that it's verybig business, Jewish culture, because, you have a lot of festivals, and thisthat you want to keep people in this Holocaust trauma, it's a business, youknow. It's enough when you see one interview with the Foxman, you know, what'sthe name, the Jewish Defense League, something like that? When you see this, 75:00he's a, you know who Foxman is? So he's, for me it's a symbol of this, what'sit about the dark side of Jewish culture. Because he's a very dangerousperson. You know, he want to have some influences for young people, heorganize some workshops and everything, so everybody's scaring about Holocaust,and everything, you know, like, he have a very big connection with thegovernment, the right wings governments in Israel, for example. But he createculture, this is, I don't care about politics too much, but I met his idea, 76:00sometimes. [BREAK IN RECORDING]
CW: I'm wondering sort of how you see your role as an artist, as a performing
artist, in the transmission of culture?
RR: Jewish culture?
CW: Sure. Well not only, but specifically.
RR: I think -- this what I tell you before about this missing, and the -- I
think I can add something different. It's this, that I'm a medium, like I feellike a medium. I never felt about myself as a star, as a rock star or someonelike this. I always -- I know that my intuition is something like a -- jak 77:00się żyły nazywają [Polish: what's the word for vein]?
CW:Vein?
RR: Vein. Which is -- which have a connection with something, like soil or
heaven, or I don't know what. But it's mean that I don't -- I recognize that Idon't believe for some religion, but I know I feel some connection withsomething which started in myself from my intuition. I feel like in someEskimo tribe mythology they have some amazing symbolic story about God. Godfor them is blind, blind -- jak jest "kolos" [Polish: how do you say a "giant"]?
RR:Yeah, it's without eyes, like someone very big and strong who made everything
by accident, like the mountains, and islands, and everything is by accident,because he's strong, but he always listen where is a bird, who is -- Boże, jakto jest, on go tak prowadzi, taki ptaszek [Polish: oh God, how to say that, it'sguiding him, it's a bird]?
AI:The bird who is a guide.
RR:Yes, bird is a guide, so I feel the same. My body is a -- it's not that I
feel like a god, but it's a symbolic talk about people in general, in Eskimotradition. So I feel like this, I have a body, and I play, and I have somebird. I always -- you know, this missing, and this everything, it means that Ialways feel some light, like I always have some star as a guide, something like 79:00that. It's symbolic, it's not calculation.
CW:Do you consider yourself an activist for culture, for anything in particular?
RR:But now, only when someone needs this. But before, of course, yes, we've
been -- it was very strong movement. Very small but very strong. And wefighting, yes, I know this.
CW:So can you explain sort of what your goals were as an activist? What were
you --
RR:We fighting for a vision, for a view, for a Jewish culture, as something
fresh. It's not static, we fighting for find some place for this culture now. 80:00 And for this, that people will have a choice between this, museum stuff, ofklezmer, something, sometimes it's nice, but generally it's nothing. Butpeople, it depends from a people. Sometimes it's much more easy find someklezmer concert than our concerts, so, I believe that people have a choice, thatit's not mine. I'm never fighting with these people, not these people, butthis reality, this klezmer reality and this museum. I never fighting for themthat I want to kill them. I want to build something very strong, but they 81:00fighting with me, so, with my temperament it was too much, so I started fightingwith them. So yeah, so we, I know, now I know that people have a choice inPoland, yes.
CW:Can you explain a little bit -- I know you've mentioned it already -- how you
go about collecting music, collecting stories?
RR:I collected music from around the world, it's not only Jewish music, but from
these reasons, this longing, permanent longing, I made research with the music,which can be my teacher. You know, like, teacher, and something like asoundtrack of my identity. But this music is completely different. One day, 82:00I can listen music to Vietnam, mix it with free jazz, and something like that. For me, music is -- I always made research with the music as somethingancient, I always -- each music, each tradition, I always want to come back tothis moment when we, as monkeys, we sitting around some campfire, and we startedto play on the sticks and stones, something like that. (laughs) And this is myidea for music. Because when you know this, it's very simple, but it's veryimportant, when you know that we've been some monkeys, half-monkeys, and we madethe same campfires, and we made the same idea of play music, and everything. 83:00 Until this day, you can find this -- that borders, like a country's borders,it's not connected to borders in a culture. General culture, borders ofculture, are, they are always like this. (interlaces fingers) And thecountries have lines. I recognize only these borders, the cultural borders. But when you want to be a musician now, it's mean, in my opinion, it's meanthat you have to be nomad. You don't have a choice -- Boże, jak jest"komfortowo" [Polish: God, how do you say "comfort"]?
AI: Comfortable.
RR: Comfortable. You know, to be someone who's sitting at home and writing,
and someone buy your music. You have to, I think it's still some kind of war, 84:00for a normal. For this, what can be honoring music, responsibility andeverything. For me it's very important. I learned from people like huntersfrom Africa, like, when they speak about music, how they learned music, how theylearned about this, how to be men, first of all, it's very important for me tofind some connection with this.
CW: I know that you used some nigunim and cantorial music. How did you learn
those -- that music?
RR: Nigunim?
CW: You know, the cantorial stuff.
RR: I had some accident in Krakow you remember, I find at some bookstore, I
85:00find old book with the niguns. And we start to play this. And this what wasvery important for me, it was find some connection with the original singingof niguns before the war, because generally people did -- nigun was a song,or form of song, which was composing only for, make the trance. It was thesame like, you have a snare drum in a teepee, people play the drum and they 86:00singing and they have some trance. So the same it was with the nigun. It'san old tradition of people to make the trance, it's very normal for people, sowhen they started singing, they, one guy singing, second guy clapping, theyplaying on everything what they had, bottles, and one guy dancing, so from thisreason, I recognize this as some free jazz tradition. Like, this the reasonwhy I found the band Shofar, who play only niguns, and made some connectionwith free jazz. For two reasons. One is this: that we wanted to find somegood way how to play this music, and second is this: that we want to find, inthis situation, that Black people during the '60s, free jazz musicians, they hadalways some romance with religion, like Coltrane and everybody. So we want to 87:00find the same thing with the Jewish tradition.
CW: Great. I have a couple more questions, but I'm wondering if you might want
to play anything for us?
RR: Yes, of course, something. It's not my guitar, but I can. (plays the guitar)
CW: Wow. Thank you. (laughter) Do you have any other questions?
AI: I want to ask you how -- because in contemporary Poland, in the past ten
years, also because of you, many things have changed in the discourse aboutJewish culture. How do you feel today about that? Because you becamerepresentative of the Jewish culture, but where you would like to be, and how doyou feel today?
RR: Yes, I feel knowledge about this culture changed completely. It's amazing
how audience, and people, they change their need for this culture. Forexample, I see this on a lot of festivals, that they change program, because 91:00people want something new, so it's amazing. I think some part of this is ourwork, so it's very nice, and yes. How I -- I think everything is great here,with this culture. I don't know place which have a much better situation withthe Poland. It's amazing, because everybody recognize Poland as anti-Semitic. But it's Foxman, this politic. But of course anti-Semitism and racism, itexists everywhere, but here it's not a problem, I think. But reality change,and the people know much more, and this is what they say. It's not -- I don't 92:00know second country who have so big knowledge about this culture. So, butstill, it's a -- you know, people from a educational, you know, teachers andeverybody have a lot of work with this, but normal people who are open, theyknow much more, teach, each year, they know much more about this culture, butwhat will be in the future, I don't know, but I know that I have to be likesomeone who even when I work as a contemporary person, as a musician, I working 93:00for this, that I closing some time, some history in Poland. I know this, it'snot possible that it will be -- it never changed, this -- the future of thiscountry. It's not only in this country, but you have two closing stories. Sofor me, I made something like this with a couple of cultures, I don't know, likea grabarz, nie wiem [Polish: gravedigger, I don't know].
AI: Like a funeral man.
RR: Yes, it's something like that. But it's not -- for me it's not sad, I
cannot be angry, because it's not choice, it's not only Holocaust, it's a choiceof people, that you don't have some relation with in United States. That 94:00natives, they live completely outside, you know. And even, this what I feltwhen I've been there, that even with the Black people, between Black and whitepeople, it's still, you have some border. It's not, maybe for normal people,but generally jak się mówi taki szary [Polish: how do you say a ordinary man,lit: gray man]? -- Smith, Jack Smith? The normal person have some, that'sokay, this is black, this is white. So, this is weird, but it happeneverywhere, and everywhere you have something like, you have to say goodbye forsome culture, like blues culture, for example. Which is my very big love, youknow I editing book about this period, but it happened in the '40s, last 95:00recordings, Alan Lomax, he made in the '40s, and this world doesn't exist now. So, it happened everywhere, it's not only Jewish. But of course we can comeback to this politic. Everybody -- not everybody, but a lot of people want tofind some way for earn money from this debt, okay, Jewish culture, it's oneculture which is dying, but it happens everywhere, it's not only this culture. But with this culture you had not -- but it's everywhere, everywhere of thisculture, like Black people and natives and -- Jewish, every has some Holocaust,in this period, in their period, so I think it happens. 96:00
CW: Is there anything you want to say about that song that you played?
RR: It was improvisation of a couple of songs. This what I play. It's
nothing concrete. [BREAK IN RECORDING]
CW: I know that you've now played and traveled around the world. First of all,
what has been your experience of playing in all of these different places, thereception of your music, and also just the feeling of performing?
RR: I think everywhere it's the people need some come back to something which is
from the ancient times. Like people much more want from three years, maybefive, people much more want to be in some trance, and to be a part of music. 97:00 So I recognize that everywhere it's the same, the situation is the same, likein Israel and Poland. But sometimes you find some differences betweencountries. Like in Israel, it's what's amazing for me, that people are stillmaking research with folklore, with folk music. People still want to find someoriginal folk music in Israel, because everything is new there. And music too. So people still mixing some music, like Arabic music with Yemeni, and it'svery popular in Israel, so I love this in Israel. And, from this reasons, we 98:00recording Bedouin music, because it's amazing story, because one composer in thebeginning of Israel, he traveling with Bedouins, Palestinians, and everybody. He collected music, and he started writing some mix of this music, and hewriting texts and everything. And I recorded CD with his music. It'samazing. Emanuel Zamir. He was a Russian Jewish, and he played the recorder. But generally, I think everywhere is the same. Of course, sometimes you wantto play somewhere much more than in another country, but yeah, I think it's a 99:00time of changes, now, because people, I think people want much more extremelyexperience, like, I'm a very big fan of the band Swans, and the leader of thisband, he plays from the '70s, and he, in an interview, he said something likethis, that he had a lot of bands, and he was like a star. But one day, it wasfive years ago, maybe, he wanted to make something completely different, like atrance for people, and he played three hours concert, and it's amazing. Butnow they are very popular. Before five years, people know about this band, but 100:00now they play, every year they play three hundred days. So it means something,and I want to be inside this.
CW: Yeah, I'm wondering, I mean, maybe this is kind of a version of that
question that you don't like to answer, but I'm wondering sort of how you seeyourself. Is there one identity that is central for you, in terms of Jewish,or Polish, or world citizen, or some identity that --
RR: I think I recognize myself as a nomad. I heard about Natufian people, it
was some nomad, not minority, but some tribe, I think, in Israel, in Israel a 101:00lot of people don't talk about the hippie people, because it was some culture,like natives. So sometimes I feel that I am Natufian. But generally, I feelthat I have to be like a medium, this what I say, you know. And when I am inIsrael, I have to be much more Israeli, and when I am between gypsies, I have tofind some way to be gypsy. It's like, my music, in general, when I am working,this medium style, it's similar to something like, to be actor? I'm not -- on astage, I'm almost always static. But in my mind, it's completely, my mind 102:00change when I play. It's changed for -- music, I have to be someone from theculture which I play during the concert. So yeah, I think, I don't know, I'm amedium, nothing more. (laughs)
CW: What do you see as the place of Yiddish language in all that we've been
talking about? I know you talked earlier about the names on your CDs, but ingeneral, where do you see Yiddish language today?
RR: Of course with the help of these girls, like Anya Rozenfeld, and you know,
we have a, it's always only girls, so it's very nice, sometimes I play withthem, so fifteen girls, they reading some poems in Yiddish, and they playguitar, it's amazing. Like, a competition of Miss you know, something like 103:00this, for me. (laughs) So this is, in Poland, I see this language here, and inmy notes, I have some archives here, but nothing more. And in United States,you can find something, in New York, but I don't know, my experience -- I am notvery old, but I saw a couple of worlds, who passing away, yes? Like -- jak tosię mówi [Polish: what do you say about someone who passed away], passing away?
AI: Yes, who passed away.
RR: Passed away, like this world of my father. This, I don't have these people
now. I knew it, that I have some debt for them, this was one of the reasons 104:00why I play this music. But in general this life. In Frankfurt it was,sometimes people don't believe me for this, it's completely weird. And from, Idon't even know from where, little bit from Singer books, but I don't know. But yeah, but I know that this world doesn't exist now. So, I don't know,that some worlds, I never, I don't know, that some world with the Yiddishlanguage exists now, as a -- I know Hasids, Hasidic, in reality they useYiddish. But in a normal people, like people who talk about culture or 105:00something, I don't know, maybe in United States, but not in Israel.
CW: Do you have a piece of advice for younger generations, younger people?
RR: Czyli co? "Piece of advice" to jest -- [Polish: What is that? "Piece of
advice" is --]
AI: Porada [Polish: A piece of advice].
RR:Ah, porada.
AI:Słowo mądrości [Polish: A word of wisdom].
RR: Słowo mądrości.
AI: Ale coś z serca, nie tylko z głowy [Polish: But from heart, not your head].
RR: No wiem. U mnie jest tylko z serca. [Polish: I know. With me it comes only
from the heart.] (laughs) I think, this what we talk about, that you have tobe, that you have to find some honor inside yourself, and responsibility foreverything that you do. And this that you always have to be ready to fighting, 106:00like fighting for a much weakness situation --
AI: For someone who's weaker than you.
RR: Yes, than you. But it's mean that it can be person or some story, like you
have to fighting for find some way to take this to the contemporary time. Ithink, yes, you have to be strong, because nobody, the world never calling foryour idea, for your life. You have to be strong and if you have something tosay, you have to fighting, it's not -- you have a lot of things against 107:00yourself, in contemporary times, so I think you have to practice your -- it'ssomething like a box match in a forest, you have to make some training, and youhave to remember about this, about nature and everything, how to be, not toomuch offensive, not destroyed, but find your way, and your world, how to buildyour reality, very strong, you have to find your government inside yourself andeverything. So I think that's it.
CW: Great, would you be willing to play something else for us before we finish?
RR: Yes, but it's not my guitar so it's very hard. (laughter) Maybe do you
have a piece of paper? A very small piece of paper?
CW: Yeah.
RR: So this will be special. This my Jewish music box, katarynka. I
recorded music of Bach, Bach music, in preparation guitar, and I played like aperson from the past, like an ancient, like a monkey, so it was with the papersinside the strings. (plays guitar) 112:00 111:00 110:00 109:00
CW: Nu, oysergeveyntlekh [Well, wonderful]. (laughs) A sheynem dank, thank
you very much for taking this time, I'm glad we were able to do this, and for 113:00speaking not only with us, but with the Yiddish Book Center.