LEON MADOWITZ ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is June 24th, 2013.  I'm here in Amherst, Massachusetts, at the Yiddish Book Center, with Dr. Leon Madowitz.  How do you pronounce it, "Madowitz" or "Madovitz"?

LEON MADOWITZ: "Madowitz" is fine.

CW:  "Madowitz."  And we're going to record an interview as part --

LM:  It used to be, in Polish -- Polish spellings C-Z, but I changed it to make it more Anglo-Saxon, to T-Z.

CW:  Yeah.  So we're gonna record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History project.  Do I have your permission to record?

LM:  Yes, you do.

CW:  A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].  So, I'd like to start by asking 1:00you to tell me about your family background, where your fa-- your parents and grandparents, what you know about them, just briefly?

LM:  Well, I was born in a town, Wieluń, in Poland, which is a relatively small town, not far from Łódz.  Łódz was the second-largest town in Poland.  It had about 600,000 people, Łódz, and about 250,000 Jews.  And my town -- I was born and I went to the elementary school -- and the school system in Poland was a little different.  Public school was seven grades.  You started at age of seven and you graduated at age of fourteen.  Then was a 2:00gymnasium, which was sort of a middle school, which started -- was fourth grade, and there were five -- four, five, six, seven, eight -- five grades, so, by the time you graduate from gymnasium, you're about eighteen, nineteen years old.  And gymnasium was usually private -- very few subsidized by the government -- and it was expensive, so very few people could afford to go to gymnasium.  And it's -- end of the eighth grade, there was an examination, which was pretty rough and pretty tough, and usually it wasn't only done by the teachers, but the 3:00government sent in an inspector to monitor.  And it was four days of written examination, which lasted almost a day, and every day was another subject, and then was an oral examination.  But those students which had good grades -- the top students during the year -- and did well on the written examination, were excused from the oral examination.  And I had only to do one examination in Polish, because it meant I have the top grades -- in Latin I have top grades, so --

CW:  So can -- can you tell me about what your -- do you know anything about your grandparents' generation?

LM:  I will come to it in a minute.

CW:  Okay, sure.

LM:  I have a lot to say, so sometimes I may jump.

CW:  Of course.

LM:  But -- we will come in a minute to it.

CW:  Great.

LM:  Okay?  So -- what it is, during that gymnasium -- this was a private gymnasium.  It had financial difficulties, so it was taken over by the bishop and it became a Catholic gymnasium.  And I was the last Jew graduated from this school -- I call it gymnasium, because gymnasium in English means something 5:00else, but gymna-- it was the middle school.

CW:  What was the name of the gymnasium?

LM:  Well, gymnasium, I have to say it in Polish, you know.  It was gymnasium in name of Tadeusz Kościuszko -- "Kos-kya-sko."  He was an American, too.  He was a Pole who was fighting for the United States, like General Pulaski, Kościuszko -- those are Poles who liked to fight, so after they couldn't fight in Poland anymore, because they lost the battles, so they came to the United States.  And it was called gymnasium -- the bishop's gymnasium, and I was sort 6:00of privilege, because the director of the gymnasium was a priest, a Catholic priest, [Banaszyski?], but he favored me.  Even though I was Jewish, he favored me, and I would say he was less anti-Semitic than all the surrounding.  And it was tough, but -- and I have sort of a tough going, because I had to pay the full tuition.  They're not giving me any reduction, even though I was the best student in my class, because I was Jewish -- they wanna get rid of me.  And after me, nobody was admitted.  So I had to --

CW:  Where did -- where did the other Jewish kids go to gymnasium?

LM:  In case they have to go to the gymna-- they have to go to another town.  They have to go to another town, and what it is their excuse was -- not to give me any reduction -- that I have a rich grandfather, which was true.  But my grandfather didn't care for that education.  He wants me to be a rabbi.  He wants me to go to a religious school, because I was -- I'll come to it in a minute.  So I had a tough time, and at that time, my father, who was relatively well-to-do at some times, lost his money.  He usually -- he had some dealing with some man, he lost the money, and he became an accountant.  He was a -- we'll come in a few minutes to my father.  So I had to give -- I was a tutor, 8:00and I had five pupils, and each one paid me fifteen dollars -- fifteen złotys -- which gave me seventy-five dollars -- seventy-five złotys, enough to pay for my tuition.  And that how I struggled to -- studying for myself and also five -- to give five lessons, five hours' tutoring.  And I also was involved in a Zionist organization, Betar, which was a Rightist group, which -- at that time, Betar was -- became later the Irgun, and they were, beginning in Israel, they 9:00were Leftist organization -- Ben Gurion, until Begin -- and Begin was the head of that organization.  Which took out some time -- on a Saturday, I had to give some lectures or tours.  Now, the reason is -- my background was, I had a wealthy grandfather, who was quite wealthy.  And he was a president of the Jewish, so-called kehilla -- you know -- you probably know what "kehilla" means.  It's --

CW:  Sort of, community.

LM:  Jewish community, but it was like here, that the community was -- like 10:00here, you have a synagogue, and it's a sort of voluntary organization.  You may belong to synagogue -- to this synagogue, to another synagogue -- the synagogue has a -- chooses a president, and the president, with the board, chooses a rabbi, or a cantor, whatever it is.  At that time, in Poland, the Jews were a close community.  There were no intermarriages.  There were no conversions.  I remember, there was one conversion in my lifetime, and it was -- the whole town was sitting shiva -- you know what shiva means, yeah, sitting -- and he was for twenty-five years the president -- was the honorary -- was a big honor to be 11:00president.  And he was the head of the kehilla, and over there, it was by law, the Jews have to be taxed for their community, for the kehilla.  From that money, the -- it was one rabbi -- was one rabbi, he was the chief rabbi for the town, and was -- his deputies are called "[morerum?]," and then, for that, the rabbi was paid, the cantor was paid.  And then they have -- there was a ritual, shechita -- do you know what "shechita" means?

CW:  But let's -- can you explain it?

LM:  Yeah, I'm just trying to find (UNCLEAR) -- the p-- the man who slaughters, 12:00you know, the ritual -- the kosher slaughtering of cows, and all the chicken, and geese.  All the Jews in the town -- very few did not have a kosher home.  They did not buy non-ritual --

CW:  Non-kosher, yes.

LM:  Yes.  Not -- no meat which wasn't processed according to kosher law.  And he assigned -- he was the head, like a president of the United States has a 13:00cabinet -- there was a committee, but he was the president, and he has a -- he was very powerful.  Because he has assigned, as a, like -- everybody was taxed, and that committee assigned -- but he was the one who made the decisions.  So somebody comes and said, "I'm taxed too much," he can reduce it.  And in case he likes somebody, he can (laughs) -- he was a dictator, let's face it.

CW:  And he was also a rabbi himself.

LM:  He wasn't a rabbi, no.

CW:  No, no.  Different grandpa.

LM:  No, he was a com-- he was a merchant.  We had two lumber mills -- he was doing very well.  And he had contact with those owners of estates -- the Polish 14:00-- high-class Polish, I would say -- the nobility, you know -- and he dealt with them because he had cash, and they needed cash sometimes, until -- they have a large estate, and agriculture -- you know, they grow corn, and -- he had lumber yards, and they have woods.  They have forests, which were privately owned, and every -- so, every twenty, thirty years, those woods were cut for lumber.  So he dealt with them, and whenever they need cash, they came to him.  And there 15:00was no any -- any documents signed, just on a handshake.  So he was a privileged man, that they can always depend on.  And, on the other hand, when they had -- when their forests matured, and they were ready to cut down the trees for lumber, he was their preferred guy to sell, because they want to sell it to him.  So that from his wealth came.  He has -- they always gave him a break.  Nobody could compete him, so he was very well-to-do.  Usually whom did they elect president of the Jewish community?  Somebody they can trust, that 16:00he's not gonna, you know -- because there's money involved, it has to be somebody very honorable and very prominent.  And then he had -- he was a very handsome, tall man, actually with a beard -- I have his picture, and he always very well-dressed, and he walked with a cane which had a silver handle, and in the wintertime, a beautiful fur coat -- not all fur, but inside was fur, and out -- okay?  And then he had another position.  There was -- do you know chevra kadisha [Jewish burial society], do you know what that is?  This is a committee which decided -- which was in charge of burial.  And all depends -- they 17:00assigned graves, and to get a nice grave was an honor.  So in case somebody was charitable, was nice man, learned man -- so they gave him a good grave.  In case somebody was not so -- was irreputable person, they put them close to the wall.  And this is it, and then when -- and there were five people on that committee, and he was the head of it.  And always I remember as a child, I always like to listen, and my -- I was the oldest son -- oldest grandson for my 18:00father, and I was his favorite grandchild.  First of all, he took me to the kheyder [traditional religious school], you know, every day.  He was proud of me -- he paid for the kheyder, because he wants me to educated -- he would love me to be a rabbi.  (laughs)

CW:  Can you tell me about the kheyder?

LM:  Yes.

CW:  Can you describe --

LM:  Well, the kheyder is the beginning -- you used to go to a kheyder and was -- the melamed was the teacher who -- you used to study there all day, and in the wintertime, you used to go in the snow and -- with a little lantern, you know, with a candle lit up, because it was dark, and you used to go in the snow 19:00to the (laughs) -- and then come back.  And the rabbi -- and the teacher, which was the rebbe -- not the rabbi, but the rebbe -- he was the rebbe, he was the teacher -- used to have a handle with letter -- I don't know what -- a kantshik, what means a "kantshik" in English?  Can you --

CW:  "Kantshik," I mean, it's a small whip, I think, you would say.

LM:  A whip, right, you can use it probably the word whip, right.  He had a handle with letters, and this was the whip, in case the kids didn't study, (laughs) you'd get over your behind, you know, and sometimes over the hand, okay?  So this was authority, you were afraid of it.  So anyway, going back to 20:00my grandfather, so he -- who respected him, and they were afraid of him, because they are afraid of when they die, and he will make the decision where to put them on the grave -- in case you won't be nice to him, (laughs) he will put you where he wants you, okay?  And at that time, you know, it was -- everybody were religious, and they were talking about what's going to be after death, you know, the future -- where you gonna be, whether you're gonna go to the heaven or you're gonna be go to hell.  It was a part that people, like today, the very religious people that, you know -- not like martyrs, this way, but it was a sort 21:00of a part of the very Orthodox today, the same thing.  Their whole life, you know, those Hasidim, they only think what's gonna be oylem-habe [the world to come], you know, mean what's gonna be after death.  They live now -- this is just a path of eternity.  The big ticket is after death -- where you gonna be?  What -- in what category you'll be for the rest of -- as long -- eternity, I guess.

CW:  Right.  I'm just gonna interrupt you for one second.  Everything's recording fine, but the light is a little too bright, so -- pardon me.

LM:  You mean I'm talking too much?

CW:  No, no.  Not at all.  It's just the light.

LM:  In case it's gonna be late, it's late, okay?

CW:  No, it's fine.  No, it's not you.  It was just the light, the light -- I 22:00just turned it down a little bit.

LM:  I see.

CW:  No problem.

LM:  So, you know, I talk because I grew up in the shadow of my grandfather.  He adored me, and I adored him, because I was always sitting, as a child --

CW:  Pardon me -- there we go.

LM:  As a child, I was with my grandparents, because at that time, it was -- the system -- I don't know whether I should talk about the general social 23:00structure or --

CW:  Well, we -- I think, if -- I think maybe a little bit, but then we'll --

LM:  Okay, well it was, you know, that everybody -- when you have a daughter, you have to give a dowry.  And he gave big dowries to his daughters, but he expects that the other part should get a half of that, what he gets.  So usually all his children became affluent, because they got a little -- and for his sons, he expect twice as much as he gave to the sons, okay?  And then they furnished them with apartments, and with furniture, and with other things -- linen, and so on.  So, in the beginning, my father -- which I come in a minute 24:00-- he wanted to get my father, because my father was very intellectual person.  And in the beginning, we -- yes, and another thing -- for a year or two years, they live with their in-laws.  This was a part of the deal, that a year or two -- m'hot gegesn kest [the in-laws provided room and board] -- do you know what that means, "kest," right?  That they just lived there, you know.  They had no expenses, they lived together.

CW:  To study.

LM:  So my father, I remember that we lived there with my grandfather, but my grandfather had me all the time around him.  He -- my grandmother used to joke about it.  They said that he's married more to me than to her.  He adored me, 25:00and so -- and, you know, for me, to be -- and once a year, that chevra kadisha that --

CW:  Burial society.

LM:  -- burying society.  How do you find the proper English, I think --

CW:  I think usually it's burial society.

LM:  Burial society.  The burial society -- and this was on a holiday, and this was before Simchas Torah -- shminatseres [eighth day of Sukkot] -- that all the member -- and a lot of people tried to get into this burial society -- they paid.  They had to pay to get into it.  And the burial society had a big party, and then my grandfather had a very large apartment.  So all the 26:00furniture were removed, and tables -- long tables with long benches were put in, and all the five -- in five rooms, all the people came in, in the afternoon, and there was beer served, you know, kegs of beer, with -- and I remember we're pumping (laughs) -- they're pumping the beer, and then each one got a big plate with grapes, which was very unusual, nuts, an apple, a pear, and then they got -- havdule -- you know what those, that -- you know, the candle that you --

CW:  Candle.

LM:  A candle that -- big candle, colored candle, big, heavy, that you use at the end of the Sabbath.  And, you know, the -- and then it was -- the rabbi was there, the cantor was there, and they were singing, and they were -- the committee elected, each time, a president, and my grandfather was always elect president, you know.  So -- and the cantor was singing, and -- it was a small town, and kids were not allowed.  And I was -- I had entrance, you know, standing at the door, and in case -- and the kids wanna know -- wanna hear how the cantor sang, and wanna see that celebrity.  So I was the gatekeeper, in 28:00case I was -- I wanna let in the kids.  I would let them in -- stay here, and you will listen.  So, (laughs) I had the key to the town -- I was a very important kid, because everybody wants to be close to me, because when it comes to that, I have the (laughs) -- the key to the gate, whom to let in.  And he was always elected, and then, you know, there was a time where Poland was liberal to Jews, when there was Marshal Piłsudski -- he was a dictator, but he was friendly to Jews.  After his death, there was a tremendous change -- anti-Semitism -- Poland was always anti-Semitic, but the government was liberal, 29:00or half-liberal.  After he died in '35, things have changed tremendous -- tremendous change.  But during that time before, once, when it was a national holiday -- like July Fourth, or Labor Day, whatever it is -- it was a parade, and he was -- and he and the rabbi were standing behi-- not in front, but behind the dignitaries, as the representative of the Jewish community.  You know, I'm just trying to tell you, how important -- and I had such a grandfather, and I was with him all the time.  So it --

CW:  Can I ask --

LM:  -- I was impor-- I was an important kid in town.

CW:  Yeah.  Can I ask -- do you remember other yontoyvim that you can describe, other holidays that you remember and can describe?

LM:  Oh, you know, the whole -- and his name was Benjamin Warszawski -- Warszawski was a -- and every Pole in the town -- not the Jews -- knew Benjamin, all.  And then was in the town all the -- a town council, which was mixed, which was elected democratically, even at that time.  And the Jews have thirty-five percent of the -- Jews were thirty-five percent of the total population, so they have thirty-five percent of the delegates on the town, and he was one of the delegates.  So he was the most prominent Jew in the town.  And, when you talk about Benjamin Warszawski, everybody -- even the Poles -- was, "ten bogaty Warszawski," it means "the rich Warszawski," okay?  And I grew 31:00up, you know -- I keep repeating -- in his shadow, because he took me to the kheyder, he brought me back to the kheyder, and then I was eating there and sitting on his lap when I was a kid.  And later, when I started to go to public school -- now I come to my father -- and my father wasn't crazy about going me to the pu-- to the kheyder.  He want his son -- there is no future, what to learn Torah, you know, may -- sit in a yeshiva, you know, what, and spend all your life -- he wants me to be -- to become somebody -- a lawyer, a doctor, whatever it is.  So he send me to public school, and my grandfather wasn't happy.  So it sort of a little -- he still loved me, but it wasn't that closeness as before.  And then, after public school -- it was okay, I didn't go 32:00on Shabbos to school, because, you know, Shabbos -- so I didn't -- even though public school was open, so my mother had to go to a neighbor, a Gentile, to find out what was on Saturday in school, that I can do my homework, not to be -- because of the Saturday, in the beginning I didn't do so well, but later I, you know -- and then, in Gymnasium, they were very anti-Semitic.  And we had to go on Shabbos, on Saturday, to school.  And for him, it was -- I become a traitor.  And he had so much -- he with his -- you know, he was such a powerful person, and the Hasidim started to rebel -- his grandson goes now on Shabbos, to 33:00a school, and he writes on Shabbos?  So I said, "I don't write."  I had to lie to him, "I don't write."  He still loved me, but it wasn't the same, because it wasn't to his liking.  I went in a different direction.  Why?  Because my father.  Now, going back to my father, the book -- this was my grandfather on one side, a very powerful man, externally very handsome, beautifully dressed, and everything was secular, I would say.  My other grandfather was a man of 34:00learning.  He studied -- all day he studied.  Now how comes it he could study?  My grand-grandfather, who was very wealthy -- so, at that time, they would look only to get somebody who knew Torah, who was very educated in Talmud, and -- and he found out that, in another town -- this goes back, you know, many years.  This goes back to the eighteen -- nineteenth century, and there was a young man who was a genius.  He was a genius.  And he wants to get him, so he send out some messengers to test him, to see, is it true?  You know, there was 35:00no communication, there were no cars, no -- is it true that this young man is a -- and they came back, yes, very positive.  And that was my father's side -- his name was Madowicz, which is Madowitz, I change it.  And they came back, Yes, you've got -- you've got a price.  So he engaged him, and he became, you know, the -- had a engagement, and later a wedding, very lavish.  And this -- my grand-grandfather was wealthy.  He had some -- owned some villages, you know, some -- and so he could afford just to live -- he supported him, and he was just studied Torah, all the time.  And he wrote a book, but he was very 36:00liberal.  Yes, he was very, very liberal.  He had four sons.  And all four sons were very, very capable.  And (UNCLEAR) inherited his genes.  And I just -- I'll come to the sons in a minute -- and he studied all his life, and he wrote commentary on all those Hebrew books, those Torahs.  He wrote changes -- hand-written, on the margins, that it should be like that.  And then there is a -- the code, "Kitser shulkhn-orekh," I don't know what -- you probably don't know what it means.  Hebrew, which is -- it is code how a righteous man should 37:00live all day -- how many mitzvahs, how many -- you know, mitzvahs for the good deeds do every day.  And he felt that it should be modified, and he modified this, made it more progressive.  For instance, they say that somebody righteous that, usually, for Friday, nobody -- somebody dies and is very righteous, normally they take the body to the synagogue.  So they put down, on Friday, nobody should be taken to the synag-- according to that code, a code of rituals -- should not be taken on Friday to the synagogue, because of the coming 38:00Shabbat, it should be clear and clean, so a body could be infected, so no.  And he said no, this is more important, in case that person should be taken on Friday, to the s-- and he modified it, and was accepted by other rabbis.  And sure enough, he died on Thursday night, and he was taken Friday night to the synagogue, and he was buried next to the rabbi, to the previous rabbi of the town.  This was the biggest honor.  And I think part of it was also my other grandfather -- he had the say where to do it.  But he would be anyway.  And on his funeral were quite a lot of people, because they had respected him.  And he 39:00kept just writing.  And then -- that he decided -- he change that "Kitser shulkhn-orekh," this is a book, a code of all the rit-- I mean, the daily life of a very righteous person, very religious person.  And he modified, he changed it.  And, you know, here in the United States, everybody writes a book.  It's not a big deal to write a book -- you hire somebody, you tell him the story.  You may be almost illiterate, and you write a book -- somebody writes for you a book.  Not in that time.  A book was very expensive to write, to publish, and you didn't hire anybody, you have to write -- and he wrote that book in Hebrew, 40:00naturally Hebrew.  And that book was endorsed by the rabbi of the town, and by other people, and his -- his grandfather was the rabbi in our town, his other grandfather were rabbi in another town, so after the war -- and it was published.  A Hebrew book -- it's a small book, but was published, and the name -- his name was Yosef Hayyim, and that book was named "Yosef Hayyim" -- this means the commentary.  For instance, you know, in the Torah -- in the -- those were commentaries -- were after the names who wrote the commen-- like Rashi, you know.  So his commentary was Yosef Hayyim, and he wrote that book.  You know, 41:00and after the war, everything was destroyed.  And it bothered me -- what can I do?  You know, my children, they cannot read anything, and how can I recoup this?  How can I recover this?  And I had a cousin who devoted all his life to Holocaust writing.  He didn't care any money, he didn't do any-- he went to Israel, and he wrote about twelve, fifteen book.  He was editor of the Holocaust survivors' monthly -- no, not -- I think three-monthly paper, he was editor.  He didn't care, you know, and I wanna send him some money -- he didn't want any money, but I had to fight with him to accept the mo-- we're very close.  I will come to it -- we were together in camp, and we are very close.  42:00So I'm looking at the time -- I probably -- it's gonna be long time, is that okay?

CW:  That's fine.

LM:  Yes?

CW:  But maybe --

LM:  Later it's gonna be shorter, okay?

CW:  No, no, that's fine.  I'm not in a rush.

LM:  Okay, so anyway, this -- so, after the war, and sure enough he cannot find anything, you know, everything was -- he went to the Hebrew University and, sure enough, there was a copy of it.  So he Xeroxed it -- Xerox, you know, it didn't come out so well -- and I got it.  And when I got it, I engaged, you know, professor of Jewish studies in Florida, and he also -- he was Kabbalist, my 43:00grandfather, and he wrote a whole thing.  So it's a part of English, then I publish, you know, my curriculum vitae, and this one -- and this is the book, so I will send it to you, okay?

CW:  Thank you.

LM:  A part is Hebrew, and a part is in English.  Now, going back, he -- that grandfather -- there were two different worlds.  He was one, you know, the scion of affluence, secular, and he was a scion -- he will only say that he didn't care of any material things, just to study and to write.  And he has four sons.  My father and my -- his younger brother -- were studying Torah, 44:00naturally, to become rabbis, and there was -- my father got his rabbinical diploma -- they call it "smikhes rabonim," you know, became a rabbi at age of thirteen, which was unbelievable -- his younger brother at the age of twelve.  And usually they became such -- you know, prom-- they sent them to the -- you probably heard about Gerrer rebbe?  This was the sect, like here you have the Orthodox -- you have, in New York and Brooklyn, you have the --

CW:  You have Ger, and Satmar, and Bobover, and --

LM:  Gerrer rebbe here, they're sent to the Gerrer rebbe just for blessing.  45:00And there were a lot of other, you know, who just finished their rabbinical studies, and usually young men with beards already, you know, mature -- eighteen, nineteen, twenty years -- and they were two young -- and they were short -- the two young kids, waiting -- and then everybody got into the rabbi, they finished, they went out.  It finished and the end of the day, they see two kids are still wait-- what do that -- those kids do here?  So they said, "No, they're here they're -- what?  They're here already?"  So they took them in to the rabbi -- the Gerrer rebbe -- and they bless them.  And those are the two sons, and then the other two, one -- they all spoke a good Polish, which was very unusual.  Self -- they just studied themself, and they spoke with an 46:00accent, but, you know, a correct Polish.  Then one of the sons also became town -- in the town council.  They picked him up because he spoke good Polish.  And the fourth one became a secretary of the Jewish gemaynde -- of the Jewish community, because he could write well Polish.  So it's very unusual in the Hasidic group, you know, to -- that they spoke -- because they spoke all Yiddish.  Nobody had a correct Polish.  So, after that, my father said he doesn't want to be that Hasidic rabbi.  So, at the age of sixteen or seventeen, 47:00he went to Frankfurt, Germany, to study and to become a dokter-rabiner -- in other words, become -- have a doctorate in Jewish literature and Jewish -- and to become a progressive rabbi.  But my grandfather didn't like it, so he was there six months, they got him back, and they married him, okay?  And this was the end of it.  But he became more progressive, and he wants me to be educated -- not to become a rabbi, not like my grandfather want.  And then there was a little friction because -- between my father and my two grandfathers, okay?  48:00After -- then, he studied himself, he became an account, and then he -- for him, he read the paper -- had to read the Polish paper, and he wrote some articles to the -- he thought -- to Jewish papers, but I don't think it was accepted, or whatever it is.  Anyway, he became an accountant, but he want me to be either a -- and I wanna be a doctor.

CW:  From a kid, you knew?

LM:  Yes, because one of my students, when I was tutoring -- and I was tutoring kids from my class, you know -- when I was in my seventh class, you know, those were poor students in my cl-- and I prepared them.  When it was the eighth 49:00class, you became -- it was "Matura," which means you became mature.  So you can get into the university, and you can become a Polish officer.  This was a big honor, but not -- they didn't take Jewish people, Jewish kids -- well not kids, but, you know, Jewish adults, but --

CW:  Nineteen-year-olds, yeah.

LM:  So -- and I graduate from there, and at that time, the Jews didn't want to go to the army, because they were mistreated, they were -- and they did everything not to come into the army.  They starved themself -- when they go for the commission, they were like that, you know.  They lost so much weight, they were not eating for two months, marching miles, and they were came to very 50:00emaciated, you know.  But they wanna get out of it, because they were mistreated, it was horrible.  And you know --

CW:  So, did you do that?

LM:  -- then was a law, that people after the ma-- they cha-- normally you went to the army when you were twenty years -- twenty, twenty-one -- later it became, they wanna have younger officers, that after the Matura, you're eighteen years old, you go to the officers' school, and, after two years, you became an officer.  And a lot of Poles went, too, because it was a good career, you know.  The army was -- they had a big army, and when I graduate from -- I got my Matura, I had to go for the commission.  Naturally, I wanna be in the army, 51:00I'll become a Polish officer, you know, but physically I was accepted, but then I was released because sometimes they had too many.  It was overcrowded, so, on the ba-- I remember a category, "E," which means you are out.  So I didn't go to the army.

CW:  But you had wanted to?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  You had wanted to?

LM:  Yes, in a way, yes, because I belonged to a Zionist organization, you know, Begin, which was very right, said we can only fight for Israel, we're not gonna get, after all the tragedy in Germany -- I mean, at that time, it was before this, but the -- already Hitler was -- I graduated '38, Hitler was already in power from '33, and we saw what happened to the German Jews --

CW:  How did you hear the news about --

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  How did you hear the news about what was going on in Germany?  How much --

LM:  In the newspapers, the newspapers.  So I said, "No, you have to fight, you have to prepare, and you have to learn how to, you know --" and the head of that was Jabotinsky -- he was a leader, who said, "Start to learn how to shoot."  And then later this is -- those people later fought for Israel.  So I was there, and at that time -- at that time, the Polish universities have -- this was already '38, Piłsudski died '35 -- was a numerus clausus, which means 53:00a limited number.  Jews could be ten percent, the same as the population -- Jewish population in Poland was ten percent.  And the Polish students were very anti-Semitic.  They didn't want the Jews to sit, so they said the Jews have to sit on the left side, and the Jewish don't want to sit down, so they stood during the lectures.  Can you imagine being on a five hour or six hours, so, you have to stand and write?  You have no desk.  And then, besides that, they were physically abused, beaten, insulted -- very often beaten, really.  In spite of that, my father said, "You should -- even it's ten percent -- you 54:00should go.  You're a capable, you may pass the test."  And I went to Warsaw, to get into medical school, and I -- I think I did very well on the test, but I wasn't admitted.  And I think those ten percent students who were admitted, the Jews, were -- either they bribed somebody, or somebody -- oh, incidentally, the director who I mentioned before, in the Gymnasium, who was a priest, but he favored me -- he said he's gonna speak to the bishop, that the bishop is gonna -- and bishop was in Poland a very big figure.  He was very, you know -- bishop -- because what, ninety-five percent, ninety percent Catholic, all -- that the 55:00bishop is gonna write a letter to the dean, that I should be admitted.  But I doubted whether --

CW:  And this was 1938?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  This was '38?

LM:  Yes.

CW:  Yeah.

LM:  But I doubted whether he wrote or didn't.  So this was the story.  Then it came '38, what do I do?  So I went from my town to Łódz, and I said, "I'm gonna become, like my father, an accountant."  And I just studied there in that town.  The war broke out in '39, and now we come to the Holocaust.  In '39, I was in Łódz, and my grandfather, that Warszawski, he came because the town 56:00Wieluń, where I came from, was on the border of -- on the German border, and the first bombs fell on my town, five thirty in the morning.  They didn't declare war, Poland, they just bombed my town, and this was the beginning of the war.

CW:  In September.

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  In September.

LM:  Right.  And it was destroyed.  The town was -- the center was destroyed.  And my father, my grandfather had a few apartment buildings, where we lived -- everything was destroyed.  My parents were still in Wieluń, and I had a brother, a younger brother, and my brother, he was young -- he was a kid 57:00-- but he was very smart, and very brilliant.  He didn't know how to write, he didn't know how to read -- he went to the third grade, and the teacher didn't know that he doesn't know how to read, but he remembers everything.  So when he had to repeat the next day, he repeated everything, not knowing how to read.  Until the third grade, they found out he doesn't know to read, but he had a fantastic memory.  Anyway, he perished at the age of eleven.  So, and my parents were in Wieluń, and they were bombed out, without anything, and they were trying to escape.  And they went to Warsaw, and Warsaw was surrounded for eighteen days, and they were starving -- eventually they survived, they came 58:00back.  Now, when I was in Łódz, my two uncles came, and said, "All the men -- the German approaching, they -- all the men should -- the Polish army said all the men should go in the direction of Warsaw," so we went.  And then they were bombing and shooting, and we went through the towns were burning, you know, at night -- it was horrible.  You walked through the streets, and buildings on both sides burning.  You felt like in a fire.  And, after a day or two days, I said to the uncles, "We should go back."  They said, "No, they're gonna kill us."  I said, "Whatever it is, we should go back."  The planes are flying faster than we are -- can walk.  It doesn't make any sense.  And I walk, and then I was in Łódz.  And then they formed a ghetto.  And I -- the ghetto was 59:00-- this was '39, I was there, and then it starts, you know, the beating and the brutality.  And then they form a ghetto -- they kicked out all the Jews from their apartments and put in the ghetto.  And the ghetto's supposed to be closed, April 30th, 1940.  It went very fast from September, you know, '39 to -- and I said no.  I don't wanna be here -- I have to escape.  So I was -- the 60:00last day that we had some -- from my town a girl -- and I still, you know, I was the grandson of Warszawski, still on my own right, you know -- very few Jews had the Matura, had that education.  So I was pretty known in my town, and she was sort of smuggling things to the ghetto -- from the ghetto to my town.  And I -- she came the last day of the ghetto, with the -- on a one horse -- a wagon and one horse.  And, at that time, I had already the star, and I went with her.  She took me out from the ghetto, and I went.  And when we were going -- when we 61:00were on that wagon, with that horse, there were two horse buggy with two German policemen, with their machine guns, and they were escorting two Jews to -- to anything -- and we were going in the same direction, and that Pole who I -- that I was sitting on that wagon with the star, so I was lying like that, that they cannot see the star, you know.  And I -- and here he was going -- and here that are back and forth, back and forth -- I thought -- I couldn't say anything, 62:00'cause I was afraid, you know, that Pole -- but he was such an idiot.  And so, to slow down, to let them go, you know -- no, he was going back and forth, with, you know, they were in the front -- and at that time, I thought, I'm going -- it's finished.  But I survived, okay?  And I came to the town, to Wieluń, back and then I -- since I knew German, because in school, you know, the -- that -- they formed the Jewish gemaynde, the Jewish committee, so I got a job to -- they need me to write German letters, so I got that job.  And then --

CW:  Can I ask -- when you returned to Wieluń, it was after the bombing.

LM:  Oh, yes, this was after the bombing.  The town was bombed, and then they came in, the Germans, and --

CW:  Can you des--

LM:  -- they were this, and they -- they needed people to clear up the ruins, all the ruined apartments, the bombed-out -- so they used to -- the Jews were working for fifty cents a day, six days a week.  Six days, yes, for fifty cents a day.  Fifty pfennigs, which is half a mark, which is probably comparable to here, to fifty cents a day, or even less.  And then they have -- they came out that the Jews cannot walk on the sidewalk.  They had to walk on the street, on 64:00the gutter -- along the gutter, and all the Jews have to wear that sign.  And Sunday you cannot go out -- after five o'clock, you cannot go out.  And then they -- whoever they -- whatever is left, they were removed from their apartment, and put in one place, and it just horrible.  There were twenty people to one room, sleeping on the floor.  So I -- in Wieluń, and then they started to send out -- they said they sent people to work -- they send out -- Aussiedlung [German: relocation], which means to transfer some other place.  But my father read the German -- the German paper, and he had such a vision.  65:00He said, "There is so much poison in that -- there is so much hate, we're not gonna survive."  So we have to escape -- he installed in me a sense of escaping.  And then each time, in Wieluń, there were -- they told all the Jews have to assemble on the market, in the center of the town.  It was a sort of -- called market.  I never went.  I went into hiding.  I never went.  I found different ways of hiding, and the same thing my father.  And then it came that 66:00they removed a part of the town -- of the Jewish population, and they put them in those black -- we called it black trucks -- big trucks, covered, and we -- I had a suspicion -- and what it is, those trucks were hermetically closed, tight closed.  And then they gassed them on the way to the -- Chełmek, which is -- Chełm, which was the town where they -- it was not gas chamber, but by the time they arrived there, they were all dead.  So my father and my mother run from 67:00Wieluń, and there was a part of Poland which are called Protectorate, which was easier, and it was Chestochov, Częstochowa, where my wife is from.  And my father and mother went in that direction.  My father was caught on the border, and he disappeared.  Here, we got one postcard from him from a jail in Łódz, and I don't know -- my mother, with my brother, went to Częstochowa.  Then it came a time where, in May '42, Wieluń became judenrein [German: a place whose Jewish population was removed or eliminated, lit. "free of Jews"] -- they fini-- so I said, "I'm not --" they assembled, they put all the Jews in a church, a big 68:00church, all the Jews.  They kept them there for a few days -- a part they sent to Łódz, and a part they sent for extermination to Chełmek.  What I did -- I had a friend, a colleague from -- and they had a tannery, and the tannery was governed, was under the directorate -- he was the director of the tannery, a German, and he was relatively mild.  And he was a big shot -- he was in a uniform.  He was a head of one of the motor division of the party, but he tried to protect his Jews, and the owner of the tannery, the previous owner, was a 69:00friend of -- Schrader, the father of a friend of mine.  And it came that I see it was the end of it, he tried to protect him, but he came back very -- the German, I remember his name, Fitzner -- and he said, "Bad news.  I don't think I'll be able to keep you."  He was very -- he really wanted to -- so I said to him, you know, how do I do?  Each time it was a meeting -- it was a call to all of the Jews to come to the center of the town.  I was hiding in the tannery, and the tannery have, you know, they had skins from horses.  Those are big skins, one after other, what they dried up.  So I was hiding and there was a 70:00big, big room, and several, you know -- I was behind that last horse skin, and I figured in case that, first of all, he was there -- that German, you know, in his uniform, so the Gestapo's not gonna come in here to -- and that how I survived each time.  And then it, we came -- I said to my friend, "Look, we cannot go."  Because we gonna go -- it's -- we're going to -- it's the end of it.  So I said -- and that -- where they lived, they lived in a building next to the tannery, and one part of the building was taken over now by a Volksdeutsche -- a German -- a Pole, which became a German dur-- you know, those 71:00are people who are trying to change their existence, who were Poles but they be -- try to be German, because they think they're now gonna have a better life.  And he was downstairs, I said, "Look -- ask" -- but he was very friendly to those -- to his father.  "What I need is a shovel, and a rake, and give us a -- can that we make believe that, and we put in -- we pulled the (UNCLEAR) and we took off our stars -- that we are farmers, going to work in the field."  You know, over there, there no machinery, but people were -- and I said, "We're gonna -- we have to escape."  And then how we escaped from -- we got out of the 72:00town on the fields, far from the streets.  And how do I say, I know we going in the direction from Wieluń to Częstochowa was sixty-three kilometers.  How do we know -- we cannot go on the road, we cannot walk on the road, because we would get caught -- I said, "We're gonna walk on the side, on the fields, in the woods, and we gonna watch" -- because there were the wires, the telephone wires -- I said, "Then we know the road is, and we go the same direction."  And came to a small village, to a -- we surrounded it.  We went around, and came out the other way.  And then, when I was in Gymnasium, I had some -- two students -- Poles, which I think they were partly liberal -- and they were -- and I remember 73:00their father was a teacher in one of those small villages.  So I said -- and I know this is in that direction -- and then we went to a village, and said, which -- "Where do we go to" -- I ask a child, you know, a young boy, because they don't know too much about -- because I'm afraid, in case I'm gonna ask a grownup person, they may detect us.  And we spoke a fluent Polish, so they didn't know that we are Jews.  And we came to this town, and I went into that -- his father was a teacher, and I said, "We are -- are your son here?  We are -- our colleagues from" -- and I didn't know that he knows that we were Jews, and of course we spoke a perfect Polish, and we made believe that we were Poles.  And 74:00we had some water there, you know, we sat there, a rest stop a little bit, and we asked for directions.  And those colleagues of our -- those friend were not there -- his father and mother were there, and they were -- we told them, you know, we are friends -- they were nice, and we had some water.  You know, we took -- each of us took a loaf of bread, you know, and said, "How do I go there?"  And I know there was a smuggler -- she smuggled from one town to the other.  And we went from one -- it took us a whole day, and then at nighttime we slept in the woods, in the morning -- early in the morning we came to this town, where that smuggler lived.  And, sure enough, she was there, and she put 75:00us up on -- she had an attic -- that attic, you know -- and for two days, she kept us now.  And then she said, "We going through the border."  And she had arrangement, because she smuggled.  So we came close for the border, and stay in the woods, and there where she had an arrangement -- there was a house, directly on the border.  And they said, In case a woman will come out with a red handkerchief on her head -- a red cover on her head -- then you can go through, because the border police went in the other direction.  And sure 76:00enough, we went through.

CW:  How did you hear about this smuggler?

LM:  What do you mean, how feel?  It was a question of life or death.

CW:  No, I mean, the smuggler -- how did you know that she was there?  Just, you heard that she existed?

LM:  She said the smuggler had done arrangement, you know -- she paid her.  That smuggler went through, and she was in this house, and then she saw -- watched the border, and said -- that woman went out for something, you know, but she had the red hat -- a red cover -- a red handkerchief on her head.  And we went through.  And then we were on the other side of the border.  We had to take the train to Częstochowa, and --

CW:  So this is the border to the Protectorate area?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  To the Protectorate area?  The border to --

LM:  Yes, it's the Protectorate -- yes, yes.  We were in the Protectorate.  And then we come to Częstochowa and they -- the Gestapo is on the station, and 77:00was looking -- you know, the Poles were smuggling food, butter, which was -- everything, eggs, you know, from -- and sure enough, I said, "This is it, it's finished."  But they were here -- the two Gestapo here and checking this, while she was -- she (sound effect) around, and we went with her, and went through, okay?  Without anything -- and then she had an apartment there.  We slept overnight, and next morning, I went and I found my mother and my brother.  And this was '42.  And then we were in Częstochowa.

CW:  You paid -- did you have to pay the smuggler?

LM:  Yes, but this is the last thing what I had --

CW:  Of course.

LM:  -- nothing, because we had everything -- we were poor -- everything is go-- was gone.  And, at that time, from Wieluń was a Aussiedlung, was -- you know, Wieluń was judenrein and my grandfather -- and then I found out that my grandfather had a golden watch, and some Pole -- he was trying to hide, some Pole grabbed him and took away -- they said that he will report him -- he grabbed his watch.  And this is -- we came to -- it was miserable, you know.  My mother worked in the Jewish committee.  She was cleaning there, just that we get some bread.  And then it came, the night before Yom Kippur -- I know the 79:00Ukrainian are in town, and this was a bad sign, because the Ukrainian -- this was the preliminary action.  They prepared for next day -- we had to go for a selection.  And I used to try to work and, when I was -- I came to Częstochowa in May of '42, and in September was -- everything of the town is -- I still 80:00cannot, you know, resist to use the German words -- Aussiedlung, you know, they said that -- and my mother and my brother went one way, and I went -- when I was in Częstochowa, all the time I was working.  Went to work as a volunteer in a -- ammunition factory.  I said, "Maybe this will help me."  And I got that document which meant when I came for the selection -- I showed them this, they said --

CW:  So that's the work paper.

LM:  Right.  He told me to go the right.  My mother went this way.  And then it was horrible, you know, every -- then, every few days, they took out -- they 81:00have too many, take out people to send them out.  And for some reason, I survive, each time.  You never know when they're gonna take you and send you for to Treblinka.  And then I work, and then, you know, I was -- I'm just -- you know, there's so many things, it's difficult to -- yes, and after that, I went there, and then I was very, very, very forced in working, in hard working from -- in the (UNCLEAR) factory.  And then they moved us from one --

CW:  Factory.

LM:  -- one to another one, and, sure enough, the last one, was called -- (UNCLEAR), yes.  And over there, we were there, suddenly somebody comes over to me and -- I'm sorry, I start to move in Poland, you know --

CW:  It's okay.

LM:  -- we get so emotional -- and said, comes over and, "Di bist waybl madovitsh [Are you Vaybl Madowitz?]?" -- zog ikh, "Yo" [I say, "Yes"] -- I will translate this, and then -- "Ikh bin yeshye aybeshits [I am Yehoshua Eibeshitz]."  "You are Leon Madowitz?  I am Yehoshua Eibeshitz."  And this is that cousin that I told you before, he was in Israel.  Anyway, he was working 83:00in a power house, putting, no -- bringing coals for the power house, and the boys who were bringing in potatoes -- you know, working on the potatoes -- were stealing a few potatoes.  But they couldn't eat raw potatoes, so they brought in the potatoes to him, that he should put them in the oven, to bake it.  So he got commission.  So he got two, three potatoes a day.  And he brought me a pair of it.  I have a suspicion -- in that book, I write -- that he didn't eat, but he gave it to me, okay?  And this was horrible.  And then I was working at 84:00the machine, and there was one -- a murderer, a German Meister [German: master].  And he said, when somebody went wrong with the -- they worked on making bullets -- the outside of the bullet the --

CW:  Casing.

LM:  -- the shell.  And in case something went wrong, he took out that, and he had told them to carry -- those were lead wires, because the lead goes in the -- in the she-- but has to carry hundred-pound lead, like that, around, for an hour, until they collapse.  They really -- it was a murderer, let's just say this.  Incidentally, later on, they caught him, after the war -- he was hanged.  And then I was working in that -- you know, you went to work, you were 85:00shaking -- and then another Meister, they needed somebody in the office to do some work, so he looks at me, and he says, in German, "Bistu inteligent -- are you intelligent?"  I said, "I cannot tell -- somebody else has to decide."  "Oh, that's smart," he said, "I like it.  Come."  And he put me to work, and I work in an office.  And that Meister, the officer that -- who was my supervisor, was a young boy.  I don't know whether he didn't go to the (UNCLEAR) -- he had some -- he was about eighteen, nineteen year old.  Such a stupid kid.  He didn't know a -- so I run the whole show for him, and he was -- so he was very tolerant to me, very good.  But he never brought me a piece of 86:00bread.  So I run the whole show, and that -- until the end, you know -- I was hungry, but it wasn't -- were no gas chambers, you know -- it was beating, it was starving, but -- and then I had once -- I had a day, every day, or every other day, got a potato -- two potatoes (laughs) --

CW:  From your cousin.

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  From your cousin?

LM:  Right.  And we're like friends -- I mean, we are like brothers, you know.  We talk to each other every week.  He's ninety-six, now.

CW:  Biz hundert un tsvantsik [May he live to be 120].

LM:  Ninety-six, okay?  He's gonna be ninety-seven, he's -- he went now for a examination, so they took, you know, his -- they wanna know his identity, what he goes -- he use the Medicare -- so they see, You're ninety-six -- they 87:00couldn't believe it.  And his mind, it's unbelievable.  He remembers every little thing.  So, anyway -- and this was -- this was until end of June -- January 16, they starting to remove people, and those cattle cars, and suddenly, in the middle of the night, we see the Ukrainian guards disappeared.  January 16, in nineteen forty-- yeah, 1945 -- and --

CW:  So you --

LM:  -- and then I was this -- and then I started, and I went to university.  88:00My dream, to be a doctor, finally came true.

CW:  So you worked in that office until the end of the war?

LM:  Yes, yes.  It was an office -- what it is, office is -- it was to test whether the bullets had to go through a -- an instrument to see whether they're exactly that they will fit to the guns.  And this guy was in charge, but he was very stupid, very -- anyway, this was the story.  Now -- then I went to -- then in Poland, you know, I went back to my town, and the greeting was, Oh, how comes 89:00you survived?  What happened?  How come so many of you survived?  This was the greeting.  And then, in Poland, after that, started to be pogroms.  I started to study in Łódz on the universi-- and I said to -- and then I came back to my town, and I sold all the properties, because I was the only survivor of my grandfather.  And all the properties -- I sold it for pennies, but I wanna escape from Poland.  And this carried me on, then I studied on the University of Łódz, but then after a year or so, there was a pogrom in Kielce, 90:00there were other pogrom, and then, in my town, there was one came to recover his property, and there was a Pole, who was -- and this was a mill -- and he shot him.  So I said, "I don't wanna stay."  We went to Germany, and we had some money from all those properties, and carried us through, until we came to the United States.

CW:  And that was with your cousin, or -- with whom?

LM:  No, no, then -- oh, I didn't bring on -- and then after the war, we got married, you know.

CW:  Yeah, how did you meet your wife?

LM:  I know her in the ghetto.  I don't have any picture of it, very exceptionally beautiful.  She has now Alzheimer's, so I have a tough life, but 91:00it's my wife of sixty-six years.  In July 11, and in another three weeks, it's gonna be our anniversary, okay?  And then --

CW:  Can I ask some questions?

LM:  Yes, absolutely.  Was it of any interest?

CW:  Absolutely.  Thank you so much for sharing.  I'd just like to ask a few questions, too.

LM:  Absolutely.

CW:  First of all, I'd like to go back to before the war, if that's all right, and ask you about -- just to describe your town.  What is it -- what did it look like, and -- yeah.

LM:  Well, the town was a small town, a typical shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community].  I said -- I told you about my grandfather, this gives you a little picture, you know.  Mostly were Hasidim.  They were 92:00dressed in the old -- you know how they were dressed, you know -- in my book, even my grandfather, with that hat, you know, and long kapoter [long coat traditionally worn by observant Jewish men], (laughs) and there were small -- there were poor people.  There were all -- and then, at that time before -- just before the war -- it started the boycott, the Jewish mer-- and the Poles, after Piłsudski's dead, you know.  They usually, when it comes -- usually, Tuesday -- every Tuesday, there was a market, you know, and the peasants from the surrounding used to bring poultry for sale, butters, egg -- it wasn't that 93:00you go here to a grocery store and you buy butter, and -- there was no such a thing.  And live chicken --

CW:  Can you des-- can you describe just what it looked like, and smelled like -- the marketplace?

LM:  Marketplace -- a lot of peasants, and people with stands were selling clothes.  They were selling different things.  People were selling hosiery.  Other people were selling knives and pots.  People were selling wooden shoes, the peasants -- they were one stand next to the other.  It's like, here, you know -- here you have a -- sometimes here in Amherst, you know, like on that 94:00green -- on that green, but here it's only food.  Over there, and those peasants were buying things.

CW:  Did Jews have stands also?

LM:  Stands, and then there were -- this was the big time, on Tuesdays, used to come, and they sold their goods, and they were buying things in the stores, and the pickets were standing in the stores, said, "Don't go in to a Jew, go there."  They tried to pull them away, and it was horrible.  It was an economic boycott.

CW:  And you -- at home, what language did you speak?

LM:  What language?  Polish.  I spoke Jewish, because I -- you know, I have 95:00it from my background.  But later you couldn't speak in my -- when I was in Gymnasium, in case I would speak with an accent, you know, they -- you have to -- and that what -- and that maybe what I escape, when I told you, when I came to the town, I spoke such a -- so he didn't know that I'm Jew.  Well, they recognize by our looks, you know, but -- I looked differently than I look, okay?  But still -- and I don't know whether they did or not, but it served our purpose.  We -- he gave us some water and gave me the direction.

CW:  And can you -- you mentioned -- you described some your grandfather's apartment -- what about the apartment you grew up in?  Can you tell me what it looked like?

LM:  It was normal apartment, with no running water -- it was no showers, and 96:00was no heating -- the heat was an oven, made from sort of bricks, you know -- tiles, like tile.  Incidentally, my father, when he tried to hide, figured out a way that he -- that oven was a tall oven, from the bottom almost to the ceiling.  In the wintertime, you had to put in -- in the morning, you had to get up -- it was some papers, newspapers, and then some thin wood, to put in, and then wood on it, and then, later on, when the wood start to burnt, put on coal, and then you -- you turned it -- you shut it, and that coal was burning 97:00and it was for about twelve hours.  And people were standing behind (laughs) -- behind that -- not behind, they're watching the (laughs) -- warming their behinds, you know, against that oven.

CW:  Yeah.  Were the winters very long?

LM:  Yes.  I would say about the same as here, but there were springs and sum-- here, we don't have any spring, it's -- you know, from the winter we jump right to --

CW:  Do you -- did your mother light Shabbos candles?  Do you remember doing anything special, you know, for Shabbos?

LM:  Oh, yes, everybody, at that time, everybody light Shabbos candles, and it wasn't here -- I mean, here it's sometimes I missed it, you know, I felt -- but 98:00we don't light.  We don't light Shabbos candles.

CW:  Can you describe what you did for Shabbos?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  Can you describe what you used to do for Shabbos, growing up?

LM:  Well, the Shabbos was, you know -- Friday, everybody got dressed, went to the synagogue -- oh, and another thing, every Friday night, there was an oyrekh [poor person invited for the Shabbos meal] -- do you know what an "oyrekh" is?  No.  "Oyrekh" is a Hebrew word for guest.  In other w-- when you went to the synagogue, where those poor people who are wandering from one town to the other -- "shnorers [beggars]" -- and it's Friday, you know, that they come to the synagogue, and they were asking some -- who wants to take them home.  And my father always took home.  Friday night, we have somebody.  He ate with us, okay?

CW:  What about any other of -- did you have a favorite yontev [holiday] when you were a kid?

LM:  When I was what?

CW:  When you were a kid, did you have a favorite yontev?

LM:  A favorite --

CW:  A favorite holiday?

LM:  Well, the (UNLEAR) shminatseres, when I was the king of the town, you know, when a kid -- I was the gatekeepers, you know, and there were a bunch of kids -- about twenty, thirty kids -- and everybody wants to get in, and then my Jewish neighbors, Leybl -- "Leybl, lo' mikh arayn!  Ikh vil dir [Leybl, let me in!  I'll give you]" -- (laughs) you know --

CW:  And was the cantor worth all of that --

LM:  Oh the cantor was a beautiful -- a beautiful voice.  And he sang, you know, and it was just -- it was a very joyous.  And then, on the very end, after that side [feast] -- after that --

CW:  Feast.

LM:  -- feast, they went with elevated levels of alcohol in their blood, to the 100:00synagogue, you know, to -- for Simchas Torah, to celebrate, so --

CW:  Yeah.  Were there, for you, as a kid -- were there aspects of Jewish culture, Jewish ritual, that were very meaningful or particularly interesting to you?

LM:  Well, you know, Yom Kippur was a very solemn holiday, which still is, it's -- for me, too, you know, I'm still fasting.  I'm not religious, but now I'm praying every day, you know, since my wife became -- but I don't wanna (UNCLEAR) --

CW:  Yeah.  Looking back, what did you learn from your parents and grandparents?

LM:  When I went what?

CW:  Looking back, now, what did you learn from your parents and 101:00grandparents?  What did they try to pass on to you?

LM:  Well, my father was a intellectual.  He could read, you know, German paper, and this, and he wrote -- and he couldn't understand.  He says, "What is the big deal to learn a language?  Why don't you learn French?"  He said, you buy a dictionary, and you read -- start to read the paper, and you look at the dic-- it was no problem.

CW:  What languages did he know?

LM:  Well, at that time, he spoke a very good Polish.  For him, was not the -- I mean, he know Hebrew, he know Jewish, you know, he would -- know German, okay? 

CW:  Wow.

LM:  And for him, was -- in comparison, with him, you know (laughs) --

CW:  So you learned that value from him.

LM:  Oh yes, he was very analytical person.  He know from the beginning what's 102:00gonna happen.  When he read the newspaper in 1940, he said, "It's gonna be dismal.  It has to," he said, "there's so much poison there."

CW:  When -- I'm wondering if you can tell a little bit more about the Zionist group that you were in, the --

LM:  With what?

CW:  The group that you were in, the Zionist group -- organization --

LM:  Oh, this was the Betar, well --

CW:  Betar.

LM:  -- this was -- Betar which was just very -- they felt that we had to prepare ourself -- the organization was Betar -- you probably heard about it, you know.  And it's still, you know -- and on head was Jabotinsky, he wants -- 103:00he was organizing even during the first war, in '38, in London, a Jewish brigade to fight with -- and he felt that the only way to get -- and he was a brilliant speaker, a brilliant speaker -- and then later Begin took over.

CW:  What kind of activities would you do?  You said sometimes you gave lectures?

LM:  Well, we had camps -- summer camps, special camps when, you know, we learned -- we didn't have any ammunitions, so you had with sticks, you know, how to fight, and this and that.  It's -- a semi-military, prepare for military action.  And people who were in Betar didn't starve themself not to go to the 104:00army -- they wanna to go the army, to be -- to have some military training.

CW:  In that time, there were Zionist organizations, and also Yiddishist organizations.  Were there Yiddishists in your town?  Were you aware of that as a movement?

LM:  Well, the Bund was, but the Bund wasn't strong enough.  The Bund was only in Warsaw and in Łódz, in big town where there were -- textile town, because Bund was -- you know, they had -- and became very -- in the beginning, when they have the union, the Bund was very strong, but later became much weaker.  Because they really -- and the Hasidic movement was much weaker, because -- therefore my grandfather, he resigned --

CW:  Really?

LM:  -- after twenty-five years, he resigned, because the Zionists starting to 105:00get more votes.  But he --

CW:  So -- so he --

LM:  Yes.

CW:  Can you explain a little more?  He resigned to be more Zionist, or to --

LM:  More Zionist -- in other words, it was a sort of more progression.  In the beginning, everybody was Hasidic, Hasidic, religious, and more people started to go more liberal, and see -- more secular and -- okay, and the Zionist group was --

CW:  Yeah.  The -- when you went back to your town, what -- can you describe what it looked like after the bombing?

LM:  After the bombing, when I came back -- well, I wasn't in my -- the town 106:00was destroyed.  The center of the town was destroyed, and the Germans were there, so we had the -- they -- whatever people live in apartment, they kicked them out from the apartment and put them -- three, four, five families -- into one apartment.

CW:  Yeah.  During the war, a few times you went back to your -- to Wieluń.  Sometimes it's -- it was for -- it sounds like you had sort of a premonition, or that you just wanted to go back to your town.  Looking back, do you know why you went back?  Was -- for family, or just to get out of --

LM:  You mean after the war?

CW:  No, during the war, when you went back from Łódz.

LM:  No, it's not that -- you couldn't just go back and forth -- there was no way.  I went from Łódz to Wieluń, and that's it --

CW:  That's it.

LM:  -- and from Wieluń to Częstochowa, where I was in camp, and then I was liberated.

CW:  And then you did go back --

LM:  I miss one thing.  I tried to -- I had -- while I was working in that ammunition factory, I got friendly with a Pole, and I talk him and maybe I can hide there, and I went there, and I dug a hole in his cellar -- well, it was almost a hole.  It was nothing more -- just that I can sit or lie down.  And I still have a few dollars, and I was there just a week, and I gave him the 108:00dollars just to -- so he says, "Can you one thing?" -- you know -- "I had the dollars hidden on the attic, and the mice ate it up."  So I said, "There is a bad sign."  Next day I took off.

CW:  So this was when you were -- you just -- you --

LM:  In -- when I was still in the ghetto in Częstochowa.  So I figured, in case he did it -- the mice didn't eat dollars, okay?

CW:  Wow.  And now, when you were working in the office, you were living in -- where you were staying at that time?

LM:  Oh, at that time, there were barracks for the workers, with straw, and we're living one next to the other.

CW:  And, so first there was a ghetto, and then you were moved to this camp, or --

LM:  Yes.

CW:  Yeah.  And is that where you -- you met your wife in the ghetto, before the --

LM:  In the ghetto, and then we were separated, in two different camps.  She went to another camp, and I went another -- and then after the war, we --

CW:  How did you find each other?

LM:  It was no -- it wasn't difficult.  It was only, you know, you find out, you keep asking whomever you met -- after went out, we liberated, you met people in the street, you start to ask what's going on, "Did you hear the" -- oh, I said, this, you know.

CW:  Yeah.  Do you remember, or can you describe the day that you were 110:00liberated?  I know you mentioned that the Ukrainian -- the guards just sort of weren't there that day?

LM:  When we were liberated, yes, we saw -- suddenly, we saw that the windows where the Germans were living were open -- this was January -- and the curtains were blowing out.  I said, "What happened?"  And then we went in, and we saw nobody's there.  The plates were still on the table, half full.  They weren't able to -- during -- apparently, they didn't know about it.  They were completely ignorant, and suddenly, probably, they got the signal that the Russians are coming, so they didn't finish their meal -- they were running.

CW:  And then the Russians came in?

LM:  Yes, yes.  And I remember the first Russian came in.  He was so dirty, 111:00but I grab his hand and I kiss his hand.

CW:  And then, after the war, you did stay in Poland for a little while.

LM:  Yes, for a while.  I was studying.  I was -- my dream was, you know, to get into medicine.  I couldn't get into medicine as a Jew here.  Oh, another thing -- what it is, the Matura was such important instrument, so what did I do during the war?  I said, everything else, "I can do it."  I put in -- I fold it into eight parts, and in Poland you had the -- lemonade was such an ol-- I don't know if you have it here -- was a bottle with the -- the cork was sort of hermetically with the rubber, you have to close it.  You probably saw it, 112:00right?  And I put it in that -- in such a bottle.  I closed it, so -- I put in some wax around it, to make sure that no air gets in, and I buried it deep in the cellar.  And after the war, I went over -- no, I wasn't there -- a Pole was living there, so I said, when I will ask him to -- to let me dig out, he may think that I have gold or diamonds there.  I said, "Look, this is my instrument, there is no gold, nothing -- it's worthless to you.  I will pay you so much, whatever it -- anything -- five hundred złotys, or whatever it -- you dig it up, you can break the bottle, to see where it's nothing there, you can open the bottle, and it's only my Matura.  To you it's not worth anything, to me it's important."  And sure enough, he did, and I got it back.  And that's 113:00how I got in right away on the university.

CW:  Can you describe a little about, sort of -- was there -- how did you connect with other survivors after the war?

LM:  Well, we knew each o-- now that we were in the camp, you know, came back -- this one here, this one was there -- you know, it was -- just meet people.

CW:  What was the name of the camp?

LM:  HASAG.

CW:  HASAG.

LM:  Oh, you know, probably -- it stands for Hugo Schneider Aktiengesellschaft, it's HASAG.

CW:  And then you came to America.  How did you end up coming here?

LM:  Well, I was going to go to Israel, but I had -- my wife had a sister, and her husband, also a doctor, we -- matter of fact, after the war, in Munich, we started together at the same university, but he was advanced -- he was a little adv-- he was older, he was advanced.  And then he decided he wants to go to, in America, because he had an uncle here -- or two uncles -- and he was in contact with them, and they wanted him to come to America.  And he went a year earlier -- he graduate a year early before me.  And so we decided, it's only two of us left -- I mean two sisters left, so we deci-- we came to America.

CW:  Through Germany, you said.

LM:  Right.

CW:  Yeah.  What was your first impression of America?

LM:  Huge, high skyscrapers, everything is so -- we're not used to it.  Oranges -- orange juice for ten cents.  (laughs)

CW:  Yeah.

LM:  My dau-- my sister-in-law was working, you know -- we came here and we were poor, she was working in delicatessen, and she brought home some salami -- salami, my goodness such a salami!  Affluence, okay?  Prosperity.

CW:  Yeah.  And did you -- then you had al-- did you continue in university here?  How did that work?

LM:  No, we have to -- here, you have to have an internship, and a residency, and I took a course -- it took three years before I was able to practice.

CW:  And did you know any English before coming here?

LM:  None.  None, zero.

CW:  Wow.  How have you used Yiddish during your life?

LM:  Not much.  Not much -- because, between us, we were speaking Polish.

CW:  With your wife in --

LM:  No, even before the war, you know, with my cou-- before I was married, you know.  With our colleague, you know, we are speaking Polish.

CW:  But you speak Yiddish very well.  Did you have anyone you spoke with?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  Were there any friends or anyone?

LM:  No, no.  I still have -- you know, because I was in -- it's the heritage, you know.  I spoke to my grandfather -- to my father, I spoke Polish, because 117:00he didn't want me to have an accent when we speak Polish -- but to my grandfather, I had to speak Yiddish.  And now I -- when I know, you know, from my town, people used to call me -- there's some problems.  And in the beginning, you know, they used to speak Yiddish to me.  And I had such a tough time.  And then I said, I'm ashamed, so there was -- each time, I decided there was a Jewish show -- Art -- I remember the -- I don't remember the name -- I remember Art was his first name, and on my way to the hospital every day, I turned on the station, the Jewish station, and he was speaking Yid-- and, after 118:00three weeks, it came back to me.

CW:  So you were in touch with people from your town?

LM:  Well, yes.  Here we have a meeting every year, you know.  We have a memorial service, and I chair that meeting.  But I never speak Yiddish, always speak English.  But they speak to me -- on that meeting, a lot of people still speak Yiddish, you know.  They come over, speak to me Yiddish.

CW:  Um-hm.  The landsmanshaft [association of immigrants originally from the same region]?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  The landsmanshaft?

LM:  Right.

CW:  Yeah, yeah.  And when you created a home with your wife here, what was important to you to make Jewish about your home, if anything?  Was it --

LM:  I mean, we belong to a synagogue, you know.  We are -- we support all the 119:00-- not all, but some Jewish organization, you know.  We give charity to -- but --

CW:  Were there any times in New York when you used Yiddish when you weren't expecting to?  Some encounter that Yiddish was useful or anything?

LM:  No.

CW:  Have you ever been back to Poland as an adult?

LM:  No.  Too painful memories.

CW:  Do you --

LM:  Matter of fact now, Wieluń was the first, as I told you, bombed, and now 120:00September 1 -- is it three years ago, when it was seventy years -- '39 --

CW:  Four years -- almost four years.

LM:  -- was in '09, September '09, I have -- they came because there was a synagogue, and the synagogue was the first bombed.  So the Polish -- the town -- apparently they changed now, they're less anti-Semitic -- what put down a memorial stone.  And they came, the dignitaries from Warsaw, the president, and the president of the Senate, and some -- I saw the pictures, some generals.

CW:  They came to the town?

LM:  Well, to celebra-- I mean, for the unveiling of that monument.

CW:  Do you ever speak Polish now?

LM:  Yes.  A matter of fact, between our friends, we speak still Polish.  And now I have a help who speaks Polish, because my wife feel be-- communicates better.  And at home we speak Polish.

CW:  What was important for you to pass on to your children, about being Jewish, about your life story?

LM:  Well, they know -- my older son was married to a Gentile.  She converted to Judaism, but now they divorced, and she's probably went back to her religion.  And they know that we are very Jewish -- I mean, we went to Israel 122:00several times, and they know how we feel.  We have friends and family in Israel now -- they're all gone, because of the age.

CW:  Yeah.  How does -- how, if at all, does language influence your sense of identity?  You use Polish, maybe, and English -- how do these languages affect how you see yourself and your identity?

LM:  Well, I feel I'm an American, okay?  I'm an American Jew, let's put it this way.  Everybody in America -- not everybody, most people, you know -- have some sentiment for their heritage, some more, some less.  Now, we feel Jewish, 123:00and --

CW:  But you don't feel Polish?

LM:  No, absolutely not.  No, matter of fact, I change my name, because I had problems, you know.  My name was C-Z, typical Polish, and I had patients who come in and kept asking me whether I'm a Pole.  And I said no, okay?  I was born in Poland, but I'm not -- they said, "How comes you speak so well Polish?  You're not a Pole?"  I said, "No, I'm not.  I was born in Poland."

CW:  Yeah.  Well I have just a couple more questions, but is there anything else that you want your -- that you want to tell?

LM:  No, I think -- we spent some time.  It's after twelve o'clock.

CW:  Yes.  I'll just ask you, you know -- what role does -- what do you think the role of Jewish, of Yiddish language is today?

LM:  What -- what I think what?

CW:  The role of Yiddish is today?

LM:  Honestly speaking, I don't think it has much -- it's a language of posteriori-- not posteriority, priority -- not priority -- a language of -- the past.  I look here, and I see the books, you know, and I see -- you know, as 125:00such a thing as a pintele yid [the essence of a Jew], do you know what it is?  Yeah, you know it, comes -- because it's a heritage, it's, you know -- it's a past that -- I feel bad that my children don't speak Yiddish, that they don't understand Yiddish.  Because there is five thousand year of wisdom, okay?  And, you know, I know -- the Jews contributed so much to the culture.  Look the number of Nobel laureates; look the number of -- where you take.  In Poland, a Jew could not be a musician, and here you have Roger and Hammerstein, and Al 126:00Johnson, and you know, and Irving Berlin, you know -- I mean, we're a small group.  I mean, we're only two and a half percent of the American population, and what the Jews contributed to American culture.  Hollywood, Broadway, you know -- all the writers of shows, and so on.

CW:  Yeah.  So I'll ask you if you have an eytse -- do you have advice for future generations?

LM:  Well, it's -- I said, the new generation is the generation of spoiled kids.  They know English and they can go around the whole world and talk in 127:00English.  So they have no need -- or they don't want to have any need for another language.  Or suppose you are speak Jewish, so, okay, and you go to Africa, or you go to the Orient -- however they say, you know, "Fiddler on the Roof," it was translated to Japanese, and the Japanese said, "It's such a typical Japanese show."  (laughs) "Toyve der milkhiker [sic]," right?

CW:  Right.

LM:  It comes to me, you know, I still -- it's so many years, I didn't.  And, you know, you take the Jewish, there's such a richness of Jewish literature -- Peretz, and Sholem Aleichem, and Sholem Asch, and --

CW:  Do you have a favorite writer?

LM:  Pardon me?

CW:  Do you have a favorite writer?

LM:  No, I never read much of the Jewish -- I know the author, but I never did it -- right, because I was busy, you know, with the Polish, with -- I had a busy life.  I had to make a living in my school to cover my tuition.

CW:  Right.  Of course.

LM:  Five hours every day.  How could -- what could I do more?

CW:  So what -- any advice for your -- maybe thinking of your grandchildren?  Any advice for them?

LM:  Again, I have -- I can't advise -- my grandchildren give me advice.  (laughs)

CW:  Great.  Well, a hartsikn dank [thank you very much].

LM:  A hartsikn dank tsu dir, s'iz geven a groyse ayngenem [Thank you very much to you, it was a great pleasure], okay?

CW:  Far mir oykkh -- s'iz a koved [For me as well -- it's an honor].

LM:  And it was wonderful, you know.

CW:  Thank you.

LM:  I -- and when I come home, I have to tell my people, you know -- I was here, z'ot geredt yidish un zi i' nisht kayn yidish kind [she spoke Yiddish and she isn't Jewish].

CW:  Di kumedike mol af yidish [Next time in Yiddish], okay?  (laughter) Thanks so much for sharing with me and the Yiddish Book Center.

LM:  Okay, thank you so much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]