SELMA GORDON ORAL HISTORY

NINA DABEK:This is Nina Dabek, and today is Friday, July 12th, 2013.  I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Selma Gordon, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.  Selma, do I have your permission to record this interview?

SELMA GORDON:  Yes.

ND:  Thank you.  Okay.  Great.  Let's get started.  So can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background -- the history of your family?

SG:  Well, my grandparents came here to the United States.  My mother came 1:00here -- I'm sorry, my grandfather came here first, and brought the older son, and my mother was the next in line, so those two came first.  And then they brought the oth-- my uncle.  But my grandmother was in Europe, and she was supposed to come about the end of June or July, and she said, "I can't come yet.  It's the Three Weeks -- the dray vokhn -- and I can't come."  So she remained.  It was during that time that World War I broke out.  And she could not come.  And when he invited her, it was like 1916, '17, and she didn't come 2:00to the United States until 1921, with her children.  And meantime, the child-- one of the sons died of starvation.  And she herself tried to make some money so she could support the children.  She made candy in the cell-- in the basement.  And somehow or other, doing that, it affected her eyes, and she became blind.  And when she came, she was blind.  That's the beginning -- my grandparents.  My mother was here already.  Now, my father came to the United --

ND:  Let me just interrupt.  Where did they come from?  What --

SG:  I'm sorry.

ND:  That's okay.

SG:  My moth-- my grandparents came from Mława, Poland.  That's where they came from.  And -- okay.  Now, my father, he came when he was about seventeen or eighteen.  And he came from Lodz, Poland.  When he came to the United -- first, he actually came to Canada, because he had some relatives there.  But he wanted to come to the United States, and he did.  Now, my mother and father 4:00were second cousins.  And he remembered my mother and sought her out.  And so they were married in 1917.  Now, it was interesting -- (laughs) -- her older brother was married, and they gave birth to a little girl.  When my mother visited, she said, "I have to have one like that."  And I was born nine months later, in 1918.  And that's the beginning that I can tell you about my family.

ND:  Thank you.

SG:  Now, my brother was born thirteen months later, after me.  And my other brother was born twenty-one months after.  So within three years, she had the 5:00three of us.  And so we grew up together.

ND:  So your family was your mother, your father, and then you and your two --

SG:  Brothers.

ND:  Brothers.  Younger than you.  And did your grandparents live near you or with you or --

SG:  My grandparents moved to Brooklyn, New York.  And -- I'm sorry, I can't remember the exact area.  And my parents moved to Brooklyn.  But I was born and my brother was born in Newark, New Jersey.  And this was after my brother was born.  So they moved to Brooklyn, and my younger brother was born in Brooklyn.  Now, we lived there about -- when I was six years old, we moved to 6:00Manhattan, and I'll tell you why.  My grandparents were very Orthodox.  Not my father.  He didn't want -- in fact, I think that when they married, they moved to New Jersey because he didn't want to live near them.  But my mother wanted to go back, and so they did.  But when I was six years old, my parents moved to Manhattan, New York, because my father was a free thinker and he was not Orthodox at all.  But he loved Yiddish.  And so, we were brought up speaking Yiddish.  I didn't even know English until I was -- of course, in the street 7:00with my friends, I started -- I knew English.  And I couldn't go to school until the first grade, because my mother had to take care of my brothers.  And it was about ten blocks away from us -- it was too far for her to take us.  And so anyway -- I was in first grade in Brooklyn, but at that time, they had 1A and 1B as far as the schools went.  So by the time I was in 1B, I lived in Manhattan, and I lived right across the street from the public school.

ND:  What section of Manhattan were you in?

SG:  Oh.  I lived in Harlem.  Harlem was a Yiddish neighborhood at that 8:00time.  And my -- I was about eight years old when my father wanted me really to know Yiddish.  So he told -- he registered me in Sholem Aleichem Folkshul.  That was a Jewish school right on the next block from me.  And I went there, where I learned to read Yiddish and write Yiddish.  And I knew the stories of the Yiddish writers.  And it was so very interesting.

ND:  So you went -- you were also going to public school, or was -- the shule [secular Yiddish school] was --

SG:  This was after --

ND:  After school.

SG:  Right after school.

ND:  After school.  And you did that.  And so -- how many kids were in your class?  What was it like at the shule?

SG:  To be honest, I don't know.

ND:  That's okay.  That's fine.

SG:  But I would say about ten kids.  I would say about ten.  And we had a lovely teacher, and I loved going.  And I learned poetry there, and recited poetry in Yiddish.  So it -- it's my favorite language, Yiddish, anyway. (laughs)  And -- what else can I tell you?

ND:  Okay, so you're living in Manhattan, your grandparents are still in Brooklyn, and you're going to regular school and also the shule after school.  And you have two younger brothers.

SG:  Yes.

ND:  Right.  So tell me what -- give me a sense of what your home life was like?  Your father was a free thinker, and your mother?

SG:  Well, you want me to talk about my brothers first?

ND:  Any -- sure, if you want to, or --

SG:  Well, okay.  Let me talk about my mother.  Now, my mother came from an Orthodox family.  She actually went to shul on Saturday without my father.  And it happened that there was a place -- I lived, 104th Street.  On 106th Street, they had a building, it was called the Federation Settlement.  It was like a Y.  And they had Sabbath school there on Shabbos.  Now, I went to Yiddish school -- I only went from Monday to Friday -- but on Shabbos, mama wanted me to go to the Sabbath school.  So this school was led by people of a 11:00Reform temple from the West Side.  I lived on East New York -- East 104th.  I don't know where they were, but they -- it was Temple Israel, on the West Side.  Now, the teachers came.  They held a wonderful service -- a little bit in Hebrew, in English.  They gave us a little lecture.  And after the service, we went upstairs and we had -- they told us stories about the Bible, and threw in a few Hebrew words -- not too much of the Hebrew.  But that -- and I -- ev-- 12:00I went there and I loved it as much as I loved the Yiddish school.  So that was really my Yiddish upbringing.  Now, I -- well, I don't think it's too important to talk about my brothers.

ND:  That's fine.  So, tell me about your home -- can you describe the physical space of your home?

SG:  You mean --

ND:  Like, what -- you know, was it -- I assume it was an apartment, you were in New York -- and what'd it look like?  And then, also, about foods you ate -- you know, what the family life looked like.

SG:  Okay.  Well, we lived in a tenement house on the second floor, where we walked up -- there was no elevator -- it was fine.  When I went down, I used to ride on the rail -- (laughs) -- I'd ride down, I was a kid.  But anyway, you 13:00want to know about that.  It was a four-room apartment: two bedrooms, a -- I don't know -- a dining room -- they didn't have a living room in those days -- and a kitchen.  But I have to tell you, we really lived in three rooms.  Because it was the Depression, they rented out one of the bedrooms, and we had somebody that lived there.  In other words, we had a boarder -- they called them boarders.  Sometimes it was a lady, sometimes it was a man.  And so that was as far as we lived.  Now, as a child, I kept my toys -- I had -- they used to sell eggs in a big -- in the grocery store -- in a big, wooden box, and there 14:00they would have the eggs.  So that wooden box, they threw it out.  Mama took one of them up, and that was the dollhouse that I played -- (laughs) -- for my -- (laughs) -- with my dolls.  That -- and -- what else can I tell you about the kitchen -- there was an oven there, and we had -- on top was, like, gas burners -- after all, I was born in 1918, and this was, like, 1924.  And we lived there for eight years.  It was during the Depression years.  And I -- oh, and then we moved to the Bronx.  And there I went to high school.  When I 15:00finished high school, I could not go further.  Actually, I took a commercial course and learned stenography and bookkeeping, because the times were very hard for us and my parents wanted me to work.  And so, instead of going to college, which we couldn't even think of, I went to work.  I worked in Manhattan as a typist.  And later on, I -- oh, that's going a little too far -- I worked there as a typist.  And -- oh, my cousin worked there, and that's how I got the job.  What else can I tell you?

ND:  So -- did you -- within your family, did you have special traditions?  16:00Did you observe Shabbos meal?  Although, if your father --

SG:  Oh, of course.

ND:  -- you know, how did that work?  Okay.

SG:  Yes, of course.  Not -- (laughs) -- with mama being more Orthodox and papa loved it, too, but he didn't feel that he had to go to shul or any of those things.  But we had -- on Pesach, we -- mama changed the dishes and the pots and the pans.  Everything was made kosher for Pesach.  Everything was -- kedas un kedin [in keeping with Jewish law], you know? (laughs)

ND:  (laughs) 

SG:  So -- and -- so we really observed everything.  But papa didn't go.  He didn't go to shul.  We did have -- oh, at Temple Israel, I want to tell you -- 17:00there came a time where they said, All the girls that are either twelve or thirteen, we're gonna have them being bat mitzvah.  Now, bat mitzvah.  I was just about that, twelve and a half.  Now, what they did -- because I told you, it was Depression -- they bought us beautiful white dresses -- there were four of us from the school that were that age -- they bought us beautiful white dresses, brought us -- gave us a corsage, and we were invited to come to Temple Israel on the West Side for that bat mitzvah.  Now, they also gave us little speeches to make -- each girl said some prayers.  It was a lovely affair.  18:00Now, my father and mother and two brothers came.  Now, we could invite anyone we wanted, but how could I invite my Orthodox family on Shabbos to come there? (laughs)  But I had one aunt and uncle that were not so Orthodox.  They came, and it was a wonderful occasion for all of us.  And they also gave every girl a siddur.  And it was inside -- "From Temple Israel, to" -- and my name, and everything.  It was a beautiful occasion.  We just loved it.  That's one of 19:00my -- the most enjoyable things I had at that time.  Well, there were other things -- there were museums.  And we were very close to the Metropolitan Museum.  My father -- not Orthodox, but he loved art, he loved music -- he would take us to the museums.  And they had concerts at night.  I went to concerts.  I loved classical music.  At home, in those days, there was no radio yet -- there was a Victrola.  And I had the operas on.  And I had -- the khazn [synagogue cantor] Yosele Rosenblatt -- I heard him on my records.  And, of course, many, many, Yiddish songs.  And I used to sit by the Victrola -- 20:00just sitting and listening.  All those records.

ND:  Wow, sounds -- where did you get the records from?  Did your father buy the records --

SG:  Yeah.

ND:  -- from --

SG:  My father bought them.  I don't know where he got them -- he didn't have money, but for records, he had.  And we had a beautiful Victrola.  It was very nice.  It was much prettier than the one that some of my friends had. (laughs)

ND:  (laughs)

SG:  So we were very happy with that.

ND:  And you had mentioned also about film and theater -- did you --

SG:  When I was five years old -- five -- my parents already took me to the yidishe teater -- the Yiddish theater -- because they wanted to go -- they couldn't -- there was no such thing as having a babysitter or anything. (laughs)  They couldn't afford that.  But I don't know who took care of my 21:00brothers -- but -- I guess maybe they did, I don't know?  But they took me to the theater, and I was five years old.  And I can tell you, I -- if you want to know some of the actors -- Maurice Schwartz -- I saw him in many plays.  And one of them I remember -- some of the names I -- come back to me, but this was "Di zibene gehongene" -- "The Seven Who Were Hung" -- that was Maurice Schwartz.  I saw Molly Picon, Jennie Goldstein, Aaron Lebedeff, Menasha Skulnik, Bess and Boris Thomashefsky -- all those -- they took me all the 22:00time.  And of course, since I understood Yiddish, I listened, even though those act-- those plays were quite mature for a little one like me -- (laughs) -- when I'm talking about five years and up.  I always went to those things.  Then we had -- in later years, when we moved to -- it was Manhattan -- yes -- when we moved to Manhattan, there was a theat-- a movie on Jennings Street and Southern Boulevard.  It played the Yiddish films.  And I saw all of them, because I wouldn't miss them.  And my parents went to them, too.  And one of them, I remember -- some things just stick in my mind -- when Mendele Moykher-Sforim 23:00walked, and he was in the -- with a horse and a wagon, and he stopped, and he said, "Klyatshe mayne, gib a kik af gots sheyne likhtike velt [My mare, look at God's beautiful, illuminated world]" -- (laughs) -- he -- it was with such enthusiasm that I always remember that. (laughs) [BREAK IN RECORDING] Another movie that I really loved was "The Dybbuk."  Now, I can't tell the details of it, but to me, that was such a wonderful picture.  And -- now, another thing.  We came to a point -- a year where we were able to get radio.  Oh!  That was the beginning of something great, because we listened to Yiddish programs on the 24:00radio.  On Sunday, there was a drama program with Nahum Stutchkoff.  He led that.  And we heard music from Sholom Secunda and Zvee Scooler -- he was also very active on that, and I remember that.  And I want to tell you, lat-- in years later, when they had "Fiddler on the Roof" -- in the -- I don't remember whether it was -- I think it was in the movies, but I saw "Fiddler on the Roof" maybe thirteen times.  (laughs) But anyway, at one point, Zvee Scooler played the rabbi in "Fiddler on the Roof," and I enjoyed that very much.  So.

ND:  I wanted to ask you about something else -- also from your youth.  You had mentioned that you belonged to Ha-Shomer ha-Tsa'ir --

SG:  Yes.

ND:  -- so I wanted to ask you about that experience.  And that, I assume, was coming from your father, but --

SG:  No.  There was a girl -- I was always interested in everything Yiddish.  And there was a girl in my class that belonged to Ha-Shomer ha-Tsa'ir, and she introduced me to the Ha-Shomer ha-Tsa'ir.  And I loved it.  And we learned -- we did dancing, and of course they told us about Zionism and Is-- it wasn't Israel at that time, it was Palestine.  And I just l-- when they gave us JNF boxes -- I went in -- not boxes, pushkes [alms boxes] -- and I went into the 26:00subway train to get money, I would go on the train, within an hour, I would have -- the pushke would be full, and I'd go home.  (laughs) And Ha-Shomer ha-Tsa'ir, I just loved everything there.  The things they taught us.  And some of our teachers or counselors, whatever you want to call them -- they actually were pioneers.  We bid them farewell, and they went to Palestine to be pioneers.  It was a wonderful experience for me.

ND:  So was this a summer camp that you went, or was it during the school, as a group that was in the --

SG:  In the evening, I went -- I think it was Friday nights or something that we met.  And I would walk from my house -- it would take me about a twenty-minute walk to go down there, where we would meet.  And I would meet 27:00other Jewish children that loved the same thing.  So that was my youth -- whatever was Yiddish, I loved to connect myself to.

ND:  So I have one more question about your youth, and then maybe we'll move on -- and there may be something we want to get back to, but -- so, about your grandparents, I'm curious about the time you spent with them in your youth.

SG:  Oh.  Well, my grandparents -- it was about a mile away from where I lived, but I would go there very often --

ND:  This is when you were both in Brooklyn?

SG:  Yeah, when I was -- up to six years old, when I would go there.  And I learned about Judaism from an Orthodox -- oh, I have to tell you, many times I slept over in my grandparents' house.  My grandmother would sit me down in the 28:00morning and have some juice or something, and she'd say, "Modeh ani lefanecha [Hebrew: prayer recited upon waking up, lit. "I give thanks to You"]" -- I'd have to say the morning prayer.  And it was wonderful.  Oh, I have to tell you another thing.  When it was Sukkos, they didn't live up-- it was a two-family house, and they lived upstairs.  But they had, like, the downstairs had, like, a porch, with a rooftop.  So that extended outside my grandparents' window.  So when it was Sukkos, they made a little sukkah with the -- some kind of blankets or something around, and we would eat in the sukkah.  I would have to 29:00climb over the window to get in there and sit with my grandparents, my uncles -- whoever was there at the time -- everybody.  (laughs) And this is how I enjoyed Sukkos.  I enjoyed all the holidays.  I had the benefit from all sides.  (laughs) So this is the bond in my early childhood that I had with my grandparents.  Of course, we moved away, but I managed -- I even rode on the subway train when I was nine years old to -- from Manhattan to Brooklyn. (laughs)

ND:  By yourself?

SG:  By myself.  (laughs) One time, a conductor asked me where I'm going.  I said, "I'm going to my grandma."  But I knew I was wrong.  I said, "I have to get off on Nevins Street and change."  (laughs) I knew where I was going, so it was okay.  (laughs) What else do you want?

ND:  Wow.  Okay.  So, let's move the clock forward a bit, and tell me about your starting your own family, your meeting the man that would be your husband, and all of that -- and just bring me up-to-date -- and how you raised your own family, but let's start --

SG:  Right.  We moved to the Bronx when I was fourteen years old.  In fact, when I spoke about the Jewish theat-- movie house on Jennings Street, that was in the Bronx already.  And -- am I right?  Yeah.  It was in the Bronx.  Right.  So we lived there a few years, and I went to school and all that.  Okay.  Now, they had a dance one night, and at that time, I was -- nineteen or 31:00twenty?  Nineteen and a half.  And I had my friend Dorothy, who also could throw in Yiddish words, and understood me.  I had met her in high school, and we were friends.  So I said to her, I had to walk -- there was no telephone -- I had to walk over to Dorothy, and I asked her, "Please, let's go to that dance."  So she finally consented.  And that was in the Hunts Point Parlor on Southern Boulevard.  This young man comes over and says to me, would I dance?  Oh, I have to tell you, before that, a young fellow came over and he asked me to dance, and I said no.  He looked like a goy to me, I wasn't gonna dance with 32:00him.  (laughs) But this one looked Jewish.  I said okay.  So we started to dance, and he -- and there was like a balcony where we could sit.  He said, "Let's go upstairs, we'll talk."  And he starts to talk to me, and I find out that he had gone to Ha-Shomer ha-Tsa'ir.  But he was a few years older than me, and he left it before I came.  So I didn't know him, but he knew some of the people I knew.  So that was a very close conversation.  And I kind of thought, He's a nice guy.  I like him.  I run home and I wake my parents up -- because it was late, it was, like, eleven o'clock at night. (laughs)  And I said, "Ma!  I met the man I'm going to marry!" (laughs)  The first -- (laughs) -- 33:00yes, I married him!  He was the son of a rabbi.  So, here we get in -- and of course, my grandparents and they -- when they -- we decided that we are for each other, in about four months, he gave me an engagement ring, and that's when my parents came.  And my grandparents -- my parents invited them, invited his parents -- and after all, my zeyde [grandfather], with his long beard, was very Orthodox -- perfect for the rabbi, who was Orthodox.  Okay, so that went off well.  A year later, we were married. 

But an interesting thing happened, which I couldn't get over, but I allowed 34:00it.  He went to school -- oh, so he went to school on Twenty-Third Street.  And what was the name of the college -- the community college?  I forgot the name.  Anyway, he went to school there.  So he went there at night, because at work -- he was working.  And while he went at night, I went into Seward Park High School.  They had a Hebrew class there.  I didn't know Hebrew; I only knew Yiddish.  Well, it was -- I went there for a month, I was very happy, I got an A.  So I tell him, "I have an -- look what I've got!"  He said, "No!  I don't want you to learn!"  I don't know what it was, but he did not want me to learn Hebrew.  And I would come for years later, and not know how to read 35:00Hebrew.  It was just another language, and it was just different for me.  That covers as far as Hebrew. 

Well -- well, I had two lovely daughters.  They went to Hebrew -- in high school, they taught Hebrew at that time -- both girls took the -- and learned Hebrew.  And they also went to shul, and I went to shul, too.  So, that's where they knew their Hebrew.  And then, Judy, my younger daughter, she was about five or six -- oh, they were six years apart, the children.  So anyway, but I wanted to -- them to go to camp.  I loved camp.  I had gone to camp as a child.

ND:  Which camp did you -- it was just --

SG:  They weren't --

ND:  They didn't have a -- okay, it was just a camp -- outside of New York?  Was it a camp that you slept at, a sleepaway camp you went to, or --

SG:  As a child, I went away about two weeks -- oh, I went to a camp, but it wasn't a Yiddish camp.  But the thing is, that that was the only thing -- it was free of charge, so my parents could send me.  It was "life camp," it was called.  And it was right in Connecticut.  So that -- but -- so I loved camp.  So I wan-- here, we had Cejwin camps.  Cejwin camp was a Jewish camp.  I thought -- think -- C-E was central, J-W Jewish, institute.  I think that's 37:00why they called it Cejwin.  When I heard about Cejwin camps, I wanted my older daughter, Nancy, to go.  I went ahead and I told them, Can I -- somehow, I had heard somewhere that they needed a camp mother.  I said, "Could you -- I would like to work as a camp mother."  I worked as a camp mother for two years, and the -- and I was on the boys' side.  So I had nothing to do with the girls -- they were on the girls' side.  Every Shabbos, I saw them.  That's when -- but in the camp, there were services on Shabbos, and songs.  I loved it there.  It was just great for my children.  So that was one of the things that we enjoyed together.  And there, I went for about two years.  What else was there?

ND:  And so the traditions from your own childhood and the cultural richness that you had in your own childhood -- did you think about how to give that in -- when you became a mother?  I guess I'm wondering, what kinds of traditions you created or you carried on?

SG:  Well, we carried -- all the holidays, of course.  My husband was the son of a rabbi, so we did everything.  The children were brought up very Yiddish.  And they loved it.  They were happy with that.  And -- what else did I want to tell you? (pause)

ND:  Okay.  No, I have more questions for you.  Yes. (laughs)

SG:  That's better. (laughs)

ND:  Yes, you don't have to be responsible for -- so -- let's see.  Well, I'd like to hear your thoughts about your Jewish identity, and -- any particular individuals -- you've told me about some experiences, but just -- anything that was -- well, you've really covered a lot of that, so -- I guess I'm interested in your thoughts on the transmission of that to the next generations -- how you think about -- what's important to you about Jewish -- or how you would talk about your Jewish -- and you've said that Yiddish is so central to you, so -- did you send your kids also?  Did they go to a shule, or --

SG:  Well, they studied Hebrew in high school -- both of them went, in the 40:00end.  They also went to -- just blanked out -- oh, of course, they went to Hebrew school.  That's when we -- I lived in the Bronx at that time, and my parents moved to the Bronx, too.  So we were close together.  And they had a shul right next to my mother's house, where they also had classes.  And my children went to those classes.  And they were bat mitzvah -- everything -- both of them.  And their upbringing was very Jewish.  I only had two girls, I didn't have a boy.

ND:  So let's fast-forward to more recent times, and -- I want to hear about your life now.  And you said that you have been teaching Yiddish in the 41:00assisted living place that you live in, so I'd like to hear about that, also.

SG:  I just want to think if I left anything out.

ND:  We can go back to the other things, but it's --

SG:  Okay.  I live now -- right now -- I lived there nine years, so -- during that time, I volunteered to have a Yiddish group.  And every week, I would talk to them in Yiddish, and bring some articles over that I thought they would be interested in.  And that went on for about two years.  And what happened -- in the meantime, our place is called SummerWood, and they're connected with a Hebrew home and hospital which is about five minutes away from us.  In the 42:00Hebrew home and hospital, they had a Yiddish teacher -- they have it, she's still there.  And she decided to come to SummerWood.  When she came, I gave up my position.  After all, I wasn't taught how to teach -- it was just my own idea.  She's still -- her name is Connie.  She still comes.  In fact, I just saw her Tuesday, and she's gonna tell us about Tisha b'av next week.  And she's a delight.  And she reads to us in Yiddish, translates as she goes along -- because some of the people that come, they're interested, but they don't know Yiddish so well.  And many times, she doesn't know the words -- how to say it, 43:00what they mean -- I can help her. (laughs)  I throw in the words to help her -- which I'm happy that I can do it, and that I could still remember.  Because actually, there's very little that -- you know, that I communicate now.

ND:  So now you -- are there other people that live around you that speak Yiddish, or --

SG:  It's interesting.  I go to the synagogue -- oh, let me tell you this.  My daughter lives about twenty minutes away, in South Windsor.  I live in West Hartford.  So there's a synagogue there that's a Reform synagogue, and Nancy goes there Friday night.  She takes me there.  So Friday night, I go to the Reform temple.  It's interesting to me.  I feel they don't do as much as I 44:00like.  But it's interesting.  Also, we have quite a number of converts in the Reform temple, because he welcomes them and he converts them, if they wish.  That's very interesting.  And I love the rabbi -- he's very nice, he's very good.  He does the service the way Reform services are run.  But on Saturday, there's another synagogue that's the Conservative synagogue, which is very close to me.  I go there on Saturday.  And with the Conservative rabbi, he goes in -- more in detail, into the weekly Bible -- and not only that, but the whole 45:00service.  And we read a third of the Bible in Hebrew.  Hebrew!  This is interesting.  My husband passed away.  I never wanted to argue with him about the Hebrew.  He himself taught Hebrew.  He taught Hebrew!

ND:  But he didn't teach you.

SG:  (laughs) So, since he passed away, I actually can read Hebrew, and I love it.  So this is my life now.  So when I go to the Conservative -- even in the Reform, I read the Hebrew.  This is a new beginning at the end of my life -- (laughs) -- so I'm quite -- brought up in Yiddishkayt. (laughs)

ND:  (laughs) So now you have Hebrew and Yiddish?

SG:  Yeah.

ND:  So, have you ever met anyone that speaks the same Yiddish dialect that you speak?  Do you -- is that -- like, comes from the same -- whose --

SG:  Well, my friend Dorothy that I told you that we went -- when I met my husband -- in her family, they spoke Yiddish, and I could -- she didn't exactly speak Yiddish like I did, but she knew a lot of Yiddish.  And we spoke English, and threw in a lot of Yiddish when we spoke to each other. (laughs)  You understand?  Oh, there was another thing I just thought of -- okay, maybe it'll come back to me.

ND:  So I want to ask you, what do you think about -- do you think there's a resurgence in Yiddish these days?  You know, if you look --

SG:  Yes, very much so.  My -- this new leader of our Yiddish group, Connie, she loves Yiddish.  She goes to wherever the -- whenever they have these Yiddish places -- for -- in the summer, like for a week or something, where they cannot speak any other language than Yiddish.  And I -- and we find that there's quite a growth, and many people want to speak Yiddish.  And they're teaching their children Yiddish, and they're talking at home Yiddish, and I'm delighted to hear that.  I wish it could have been more in my house, but my husband -- when my children -- when the first one was born, I said, "Let's talk Yiddish to her."  He said no.  And I, at that time -- and I guess all the time 48:00that I was married -- I gave him the first privilege for his -- what he wanted, and I didn't fight it.  So that's why my children cannot speak Yiddish.  They'll understand some, and they love Yiddishkayt, but they're more into the Hebrew.

ND:  So -- I'm interested because you've lived such a life that spans many important world events, whether any of these historical events had an impact on your life, or what it was like?  I'm thinking about -- well, you've already talked about the Depression, and -- so, World War II, and, you know, the creation of the state of Israel, the McCarthy era, any of those things, can you -- or anything -- can you think --

SG:  Well, I can tell you one incident.  (laughs) When I heard of the state of 49:00Israel, there -- I grabbed the pushke that I had in my house, ran down to the elevator -- there was an elevator near me -- ran down to -- and filled that box up. (laughs)  I was so happy.  And I was pregnant, with a big stomach. (laughs)  I didn't care.  I was so happy to hear that we had a state of Israel.  That meant so much to me.  There's so many things -- I know that I left something out.  I don't remember.  Okay.

ND:  And I wonder whether -- when you were growing up, were there other political views or organizations -- you said your father was a free thinker, so what was the --

SG:  Oh.  My father belonged to the Po'ale Tsiyon.  (pause) See, my father 50:00was very Jewish-minded.  He was very -- he loved Judaism, but not the Orthodox -- he couldn't stand the prayers, with all those things.  (laughs) He felt that wasn't for him.  So that's what I had from my father.

ND:  And so -- let's skip back to Yiddish.  Do you have a favorite Yiddish phrase or word or song or anything?  I mean, is there --

SG:  Sure.  There are (laughs) many songs that I (laughs) always loved.  "Mayn shtetele belts [My little town of Belz]," "In beys-hamigdesh, in a vinkl kheyder [In the Temple, in the corner of a room]" --

ND:  To ask you this question -- since you have -- you now have so many, and so 51:00much of -- and you've already talked about the actors and the Yiddish theater that you've seen, so, let's see -- and then, tell me about the years in Florida.  Also, did you -- what was life like there?  Did you -- and in terms of your Jewish life and Yiddish?

SG:  Oh, I -- when I moved to Florida -- of course, on -- we lived in Century Village.  That was like a community -- many, many apartments.

ND:  In what part of Florida?

SG:  Boca Raton.  And in our community -- it's, like, fenced off -- they had a temple that was more Conservative, but they also had an Orthodox.  And what 52:00happened, being -- so, we figured we'd go to the Conservative, but my husband meets this man who's a refugee, and he makes good friends with my husband, and he says, "Why do you go there?  Come to the Orthodox!"  So the Orthodox at that time was just like a room -- there was nothing.  They actually made an Orthodox temple there, which -- many people came, and that's what we attended, in Century Village.  In fact, do you know what they did?  They made a -- what do they call it?  A boundary.

ND:  Oh, yeah.  I know what you --

SG:  I can't think of the word. (laughs)

ND:  But I know -- I know what you mean, so let's both let the word come to us.

SG:  Yeah -- around, so that they could come there -- with a child -- with walking -- with a carriage, you can walk there.  And that was very good.  So in Century Village, we had that.  And of course, there were lectures -- there was everything that was Jewish there.  And I enjoyed that very much.

ND:  And was there Yiddish cultural activities or Yiddishkayt in --

SG:  Yeah.  Yes, yes.  We had -- we got together some nights, where someone would talk to us.  And there were different -- I attended everything there.  Anything that was Yiddish, I go.  (laughs) It's the love of my life.  And then, what happened was that my daughter was talking with some friends -- and 54:00she was in geriatrics -- her friend -- she says, "Your father's ninety-two, and they live in Florida?  You better get 'em up here."  So this is how we came to Connecticut.  We came very willingly -- we were very happy, 'cause we could be near our chil-- our daughter and our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren.  Unfortunately, my husband died -- after eight months, he was gone.  But I still live there.  And I belong to -- I told you about that -- the two shuls that are here in Connecticut.

ND:  And do you speak Yiddish with your grandchildren and great-grandchildren, or --

SG:  Regretfully, no.  I have to tell you, the modern times -- this is killing me -- that there's the intermarriage, which hurts me.  One of my granddaughters 55:00-- that I actually almost brought her up until she was about six -- she lived right across from us in the Bronx -- she married a goy, and it just kills me, because the eldest -- the great-grandson, they didn't even bar mitzvah him.  That kills me.  That's the modern time that we live in.  The other granddaughter that I have -- yes, her son was bar mitzvahed, her daughter was bat mitzvahed.  The son, he's now eighteen.  He has a shikse girlfriend.  What are we going to do?  That's what I ask.  It hurts me so.  I am so hurt.  And I don't -- I can't say anything to them.  I love my 56:00grandchildren.  I can't not see them or be with them.  I just keep quiet.  But in my heart, I'm the saddest one in the world, believe me -- that this is happening to me.  And one of my granddaughters -- well, I told you, she married a Jew.

ND:  So the transmission of Jewish religion is very important to you, in your mind?

SG:  Yes.  It -- well, Yiddish -- I don't care what it is.  Anything Yiddish, I love.  It's just part of my life. (pause)  In the Holocaust -- (pause) -- my grandmother, who was in Europe at the time -- they came in, and she was with her brother, and they shot her -- the Nazis.  Just shot her.

ND:  This is the grandma -- your father's mother, or your --

SG:  My father's, my mother's mother was here.

ND:  Right.

SG:  I'm talking about --

ND:  And where did they -- where were they living -- your father's parents?

SG:  Just a moment.  I have to think, because -- where did they live?  Probably Poland, I don't -- I'm assuming it's Poland.  I can't -- I never saw her -- and I had an aunt and uncle and three little ones -- they had three little ones -- Auschwitz -- finished them.  And then this aunt -- my father's sister -- I corresponded with her in Yiddish!  She wrote to me in Yiddish, and I wrote to her -- I never met her --

ND:  She was there, you were here, but you were writing --

SG:  Yeah.

ND:  -- in Yiddish?

SG:  Yeah, 'cause that was my father's sister.  That's it.  That's the only 58:00connection.  Oh -- my grandm-- my father's father had died when he was, like, three years old, so his parents -- his grandparents brought him up.  And so that's why my father came to America -- he was quite young, and he was on his own. (pause)  I want to tell you.  So anyway, I never met them, but I -- oh, yes, this is what I wanted to tell you.  He had a half brother who lived -- oh, he lived in Israel.  And when we went -- my husband and I went to Israel -- we visited him, and he came to the United States, and we saw them.  Them, I know.  But he was, like, a half brother.  But my father corresponded with him, 59:00too.  But otherwise, that's all I knew of my father's family.  Nothing.

ND:  So I have a last question for you that -- if you have -- if there's anything else that you think -- any other stories from, you know, your childhood or grandparents or anything that you would like to make sure to tell --

SG:  (pause)  I can't think of anything now.

ND:  So my question is, what advice do you have for future generations?

SG:  Not to intermarry. (laughs)  That hurts me so.  And to -- and if they 60:00could speak Yiddish and learn Yid-- because there are many, many people that are now -- want to speak Yiddish.  And I think it's so wonderful.  And also, to be connected with the state of Israel, I think that's very important for us.  And God should help us that Israel will exist, 'cause it has so many enemies, and I pray for them all the time.  I have family in Israel -- that's -- I guess, like anybody else, there's no difference.  And I don't know what else I can tell you.

ND:  So, okay.  Well, thank you very much.  I --

SG:  Oh, I just thought of one little thing.

ND:  Oh, oh, that's fine.

SG:  One little thing --

ND:  We're still going.

SG:  -- one big thing. (laughs)  I have two daughters, I told you.  My first daughter, she had two husbands, and they were Jewish.  But my younger daughter, she married this man who wanted to be a Jew before he even met her.  And he converted to Judaism and goes to shul!  He made her more Orthodox than she -- and that is very interesting to me, to see how a convert -- incidentally, that's him outside -- and he was a goy.  So that, to me, was very interesting in my life.  I love him.  He asked me to call him his son, because he has no 62:00parents.  I don't call him my son-in-law, I call him my son.  And I feel the warmth and the love.  And I think that's so interesting that we could experience it, where a convert -- and to see all these converts in the Reform temple is interesting to me.  But he had asked me where to go, and I said, "Go to the Conservative -- you don't want it too Orthodox -- you don't need the Reform" -- and he goes, and he's active there, works there, does everything.  And he's from California.  They came to see me, and one of the things they were happy -- they always go to the Yiddish Book Center when they come.  That's interesting.  But -- oh, I'm so glad I thought of that.  (laughs) I guess 63:00other things will come to me, but I can't think of it now.

ND:  Okay.  Thank you.

SG:  Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]