JOSEPH HELLER ORAL HISTORY

JESSICA PARKER:This is Jessica Parker, and today is July 24th, 2013. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Joseph Heller, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Joseph, do I have your permission to record this interview?

JOSEPH HELLER:Yes.

JP:Thank you. So, if we may, I'd like to start with a bit about your family background. Can you tell me briefly what you know about it?

JH:My Jewish family background? Like, where they came from? My grandfather came from Belarus, from Minsk, in 1907. He came with his family. I don't think they all made it over. I think some of them died on the way, and then some of them 1:00stopped in France. And then, he came to New York. And then, that's where he met my grandma in the '30s. My grandma was born in 1917, and she was adopted by German Jewish immigrants and -- in 1920, and --

JP:Where was she adopted from?

JH:From New York. Her birth mom was German and her birth father was Puerto Rican, I think, yeah. And then, they met and then -- and they had my mom and my uncle, yeah. That's my Jewish immigrant story.

JP:And you have non-Jewish family, as well?

JH:I'm -- I think I -- I don't think I do. I think all my cousins married Jews. I mean, me and my sister are both adopted, so I guess not -- like, for some people, we don't have, like, Jewish blood. But other than that, we're all Jewish, yeah.

JP:Great. Do you have any famous or infamous family stories you'd like to share?

JH:Oh, I think my grandfather had to leave New York 'cause he borrowed too much money from the Mafia. That was a long time ago, so I'm sure it's -- doesn't matter anymore.

JP:Do you know what he was borrowing it for?

JH:I have no idea.

JP:Do you know --

JH:But I think he was also part of the -- the Ma-- the Masons, whatever -- whatever -- that secret society. But those are my most infamous stories.

JP:And where did he have to go after leaving New York?

JH:He went to Los Angeles.

JP:Yeah.

JH:Yeah.

JP:Do you know what he then did there?

JH:He had a furniture store. That I think later on, he ran it with my uncle, and then my uncle inherited it and he expanded it. And then, turned to a housing thing. Not really sure what it evolved into.

JP:What -- do you know what a housing thing is?

JH:Well, he does those tract housings. He plans those kinds of suburban areas. He builds those houses. He has a whole company that does that. It's called Heller Development.

JP:Wow.

JH:And his kids run it now, yeah.

JP:Wow. And, I mean, do you know anything about that family's engagement with Jewish culture or Jewish identity?

JH:My grandma's parents, from what I can tell, were very assimilated. German Jews and German -- when they came over here, I think they held on a lot to their German identities. Whether or not it was through a Jewish lens, I'm not sure. I think there had to be something, 'cause my grandma grew up with some sort of Jewish identity, but she also grew up speaking German a lot, so that's why it was easy for her to pick up Yiddish later on.

JP:Did she learn Yiddish later on?

JH:Yeah. When she married my grandfather, his family didn't really like her, so they would talk about her in Yiddish. And so, she had to learn Yiddish. Well, it was not very hard for her, so -- yeah, she had to learn so she could understand the crap that they were talking about her.

JP:So, it was, in a way, a -- a language of necessity --

JH:Yes.

JP:-- at that point.

JH:Yeah.

JP:Wow. And where were you born?

JH:I was born in Los Angeles. Beverly Hills.

JP:Born and raised?

JH:Cedars Sinai. No, I was raised in Santa Monica, but I lived for a little while in my grandma's house in Beverly Hills, yeah.

JP:Great. Can you tell me a little bit about your family?

JH:I was adopted by a single mom, and she, by that time, had my brother and my sister. My sister was also adopted. My -- growing up, we spent a lot of time with my grandma. She lived with us for a little while. We visited her a lot, and then my uncle was not around very much because his first wife didn't really like us that much. Or my mom and my grandma. So, we didn't see them very often. And we've always had a lot of dogs. That's --

JP:That's terrific.

JH:That's -- oh, and now I have a niece, yes.

JP:Mazel tov.

JH:Yes, thank you. For, like, four years. (laughter) So, I guess, like, not now 5:00now, but --

JP:So, she's four years old.

JH:Yeah, she's gonna be --

JP:Would you say you grew up in a Jewish home?

JH:I think, yeah, I would -- yes, but not religiously. I was very -- I've been aware that I'm part of a Jewish family since as long as I can remember. But we didn't really interact with much of the Jewish community in Santa Monica. But I was very aware of being Jewish growing up.

JP:And so, what about your house felt Jewish to you, or your community felt Jewish to you?

JH:We always had a mezuzah. And so, like, I knew what that was from early on. But that was the extent of our religious stuff. And then, my grandma lived in a very Jewish community. So, if we went out to eat with her, we would go to delis in that area. And then, my mom and my grandma spoke Yiddish. So, I was exposed to that. And then, we did a little bit of Hanukkah. And then, we went to some 6:00High Holiday stuff. And then we had -- our cousins had bar mitzvahs and we went to those. So, was most Jewish -- I think --

JP:So, your mom and your grandmother spoke Yiddish to each other.

JH:Oh, yeah, yeah.

JP:How did your mom learn Yiddish?

JH:From her parents. Her -- my grandfather was a native Yiddish speaker.

JP:And do -- from what you saw, was it sort of by accident that she still spoke it or did they try to teach it -- was she committed to it?

JH:I think -- I don't really -- I'm not sure how committed they were to it. I think it was just something that they had. I don't know if they really thought it was something super special. But I think my grandma was a little more connected to German, 'cause I think that reminded her of her parents. 'Cause I know when my sister was a little kid, my grandma didn't try to teach my sister Yiddish. She tried to teach her some German. And, I don't know, I think, yeah --

JP:So, then why speak Yiddish with your mom and not German?

JH:I think -- well, my grandma didn't teach my mom German. My mom didn't know German. I think growing up, they spoke mostly Yiddish at home. So, I think that's just something that they had in common, was Yiddish.

JP:And do you know what era your mom grew up in?

JH:Yeah, my mom was born in 1944. Yeah.

JP:So, already an era that it was somewhat uncommon for people to be speaking Yiddish in the home and --

JH:Yeah. And I know that they definitely stopped speaking as much Yiddish, because when my grandfather came over from -- during the first Red Scare, so there was already a lot of backlash against Jewish communities and German communities, too. So, my grandma's family -- speaking German was something that they had to put aside. And then I know my grandfather was kind of resistant to Yiddish, because he was not even first generation. He wasn't born here, and he's trying to assimilate. And then, by the time my mom came around, they were 8:00speaking Yiddish at home, but then, when she was a teenager, it was McCarthyism. And, like, it came -- became even harder to be Jewish again. So they didn't really want to -- I don't know, it came -- it became more of a burden to speak Yiddish and keep up German and stuff like that. So, I think that's a -- one of the big reasons why it's been watered down so much in our family.

JP:But as an adult, she was still speaking in Yiddish with her mother?

JH:Well, I was really young when that happened. I know they were speaking Yiddish, but each -- it was hard to -- the saturation level of English, how much was involved. But she -- I think she definitely knew it. I tried to get her to go to classes with me when I was in ninth grade. But she was, like, "I don't need that," I guess 'cause she already spoke Yiddish. So, yeah.

JP:To go to Yiddish classes with you.

JH:Yeah, 'cause I wanted to -- I wanted to learn, as well, yeah.

JP:And what prompted your interest in learning Yiddish?

JH:Well, my mom and my sister had started teaching me Spanish at home, and then 9:00I was taking it in school. And then, I had taken some French and I realized I was really interested in languages. And I thought it would be nice to know one of the languages that represents my family. 'Cause Spanish, French, and English, none of those are really connected very deeply to my family. And I thought it'd be nice to speak the language my mom and my grandma spoke.

JP:Cool. And did you find a place to take Yiddish at that age?

JH:No. I didn't take -- I didn't -- the best I could do was practice with my neighbors. And then the Chabad. And then, in twelfth grade, I got -- I got a rabbi to teach me some Yiddish formally, but that's about it. And this is the most formal Yiddish education I've had, at the Steiner program.

JP:The Steiner summer program this summer. And who were your neighbors?

JH:My -- one of my best friends growing up, her grandfather was a survivor, and he and his daughter spoke Yiddish. And so, I -- I go over there and I try to practice with them. They're really nice. He always likes speaking Yiddish. He's 10:00not -- he's, like -- kind of hard to talk to him, 'cause he's deaf and I have to shout, and I'm not very confident in my Yiddish. So, it's hard to shout in a language you're not confident in. But the mom is really fun. She can't really remember a lot of stuff. She knows it when she hears it, but she'll speak to me in Yiddish whenever I try, which is nice.

JP:That's terrific. Did you have any specific ways that you celebrated holidays or events during the year as a family?

JH:Like Shabbos?

JP:Um-hmm. Jewishly or --

JH:I -- we didn't really do Shabbos at home. And again, I think that's also part of the Red Scares and stuff. 'Cause I remember I was -- I'll to tie it back in -- but my m-- I remember I thought it was really funny to tell people that my mom was a communist. I don't -- no idea why. But then, I told her that and she was, like, "You know, when I was a kid, if you told me -- if you told people that, I could've been taken away." And at the time, I didn't really think that meant anything. But, I don't know, going on, I feel like it represents a -- like, legitimate fear that they had, like, just being Jewish in general. So, I 11:00feel like that really sped up the assimilation process. And then, a lot of our Jewish stuff is very watered down. We have our mezuzah and stuff but we don't really do Shabbos. We don't participate in Jewish communities. And we -- I don't remember being in a synagogue more than twice or three times growing up. I don't know, and then we on-- we would only do one night of Hanukkah, because my mom thought it would be spoiling us if we did all eight nights. So, we did Christmas instead, 'cause it was more fun. We all liked decorating the tree, so, yes. Not very -- we were very secular.

JP:Were -- were there specific ways that you could see that she was bringing Jewishness into your lives or into your home?

JH:She always -- she -- well, she made matzah soup. And then, oh -- oh, I remember, when I was little, she used to light candles every Yom Kippur for my grandfather. And then, for my grandma, when she passed away. And I never knew 12:00what that meant. But I guess I do now, 'cause -- learning about being Jewish. But then --

JP:Did you -- did you ask her what it meant or did she ever say what she was doing?

JH:She might have. I don't remember her ever explicit -- I mean, explicitly telling me. But I think if anybody would have told me, I think it would have been my sister. So, yeah.

JP:Was there anything you did together as a family -- any sort of family interests or -- a glue of things you did together?

JH:Doing things together was not -- no, that -- we did not do that. We went on a trip one time to New Mexico, and that was a hot mess. We're a very dysfunctional family. But that was also where I got most of my Jewish education, 'cause on that road trip, my sister read me most of the Old Testament, which was kind of nice.

JP:And how did that come about, that you got this Old Testament as part of this 13:00road trip?

JH:I think my sister was taking -- I don't even know what. I think she just had it, and then she had it in the car and then she just, like, read it to me, which is crazy, 'cause we did not get along back then. But we got along on that trip.

JP:And how did you receive this reading of the Old Testament?

JH:I thought it was really interesting, 'cause by that time, I was sixth grade and I knew I was Jewish. And I was very fluent -- but I didn't really know much about it. And I think naturally I'm -- pretty curious person. And I think it's nice filling in the gaps of why we do certain things. Like, why we have that mezuzah on our door. So, yeah. That's where -- that is most of my Jewish education, up until college.

JP:Great. And we'll get to the college --

JH:Okay.

JP:-- stuff in -- in a little bit. And so, I'm curious more about the languages that were spoken in your home. You know, you mentioned hearing some Yiddish and being taught some Spanish.

JH:It was mostly English at home, but -- I'm not really sure how, but my mom knew Spanish. And then, my sister went to Spain and she studied abroad for a 14:00year and she came back -- and she's also really good at languages. And she started teaching me stuff, and then it was around the same time I started taking Spanish at school. And I got really excited about it. And I started speaking, so my mom would respond to me and stuff. And she'd -- got to speak Spanish at home and both of them would help me with it, which was nice. But that didn't last very long, 'cause -- I don't know, when my mom passed away, my sister didn't really want to speak Spanish anymore, 'cause I think it -- I think it reminded her of that or just -- I don't know. And that was the same with Yiddish. When my grandma passed away, Yiddish kind of stopped. My mom was -- didn't really want to participate in it, so --

JP:Sure, that's definitely understandable. You -- you mentioned your mom telling you that had she been called a communist, you know, like you were telling people she was -- but back in the '50s, she could have been taken away. Was there -- particular political atmosphere in your home growing up?

JH:Where she -- I think she consciously raised us very liberal. Not extremely liberal, but I think that was the extent of our political views. She really was -- she was really happy when Obama won. I remember she cried and she was, like, "You didn't see what I saw. You didn't see the struggles people had to go through." And I was, like, "Shut up." But -- so, I think, in her house, too, it was a very liberal environment. That's that.

JP:What -- was Obama being elected significant in your world or -- at all to you?

JH:For me, luckily, not really, 'cause I grew -- I grew up in a really open area. And I luckily never had to really experience racism or any stuff like that. So, for me, it kind of seemed natural, which I -- now, I'm really grateful for, 'cause how many people get to say, that's -- I mean it is a big deal for me 16:00now that I understand more what it means or what it represents. But I feel really grateful for having that experience of it being somewhat normal, so --

JP:Were -- was your family involved in any organizations when you were growing up that you can think of?

JH:No. (laughs)

JP:And I know that you mentioned that you weren't sort of actively engaged in Jewish community, but were you involved in any organized activities that had an impact on your sense of Jewish identity growing up?

JH:Oh, yeah. I used to go to my neighbor's house for Shabbat a lot in middle school and elementary school. And mostly in the summers, 'cause we went to different schools. On the summers, we'd hang out a lot, and so I got to go to a lot of Shabboses. And then, in high school, my friends and I were looking for a way to get stuff on our college applications, so we decided to join the Jewish 17:00youth group at one of the synagogues. But we only did that for a year, 'cause they were weird. And I think that's -- I don't know, that -- that definitely influenced my Jewish identity, 'cause they sang a lot of Deborah Friedman stuff that was in English and it just seemed really Jesus-y to me. And so that was kind of uncomfortable, so -- I don't really like a lot of that Reform -- ultra-Reform stuff because of that.

JP:Because it seems Christian-like?

JH:I don't know, the -- the songs seem really -- like Jesus songs. I don't really know what the acceptable term for that is, but they seem like Jesus songs.

JP:Interesting. And -- and in comparison, what were your neighbors' Shabbos dinners like?

JH:They're really nicer. Pretty relaxed. They always had really, really good food. But they just -- they said the prayers in Hebrew. We washed our hands in silence. And, I don't know, everybody was there. It was just a big family meal. It was nice.

JP:Was that more comfortable?

JH:Yeah. Yeah, and they said a lot of the prayers in English at this place and it was, I don't know, seemed like a church. Was not fun.

JP:What was your neighborhood growing up like? Who lived there?

JH:White people. Like, white and Christian but not very religious. I think most people where I live are secular. But my grandma's neighborhood -- where I ended up living for three or four years, where -- it was heavily Jewish. And I think that's also when I started to get more interested in being Jewish. 'Cause I saw more Jews around and I started -- I was -- I just got curious about it then, I think.

JP:Did you ever experience any racism or anti-Semitism in your neighborhood growing up?

JH:Luckily, no. I think the most was in seventh grade, in my math class. All the 19:00kids tried to convince me that Jews killed Jesus and that it was partially my fault. But I think it was kind of a joke. I'm not really sure. But at the time, I was not very offended. It was just annoying 'cause they -- it went on for fifteen minutes and I didn't get where it was going. But other than that, I didn't have any. And that -- I think that I was pretty lucky at the time, too, 'cause I didn't really perceive it as a personal attack, even though they were basically saying it was my fault, as well. But, I don't know, I've been pretty lucky in that.

JP:When you were living in your grandmother's neighborhood and started getting more interested, were there ways to feed your interest? Were --

JH:At that time, I think -- well, there were ways, but just being young, it was harder to move around, especially -- 'cause it was more in the city and public transport gets weirder the further in you go. And so, I -- I definitely knew of places around where I could have gone to. But I don't know, I think it was too stressful to go out, venture into Los Angeles, you know?

JP:Having been there, I've -- I've seen the ways in which --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- public transit is (laughter) not necessarily people transit friendly.

JH:No.

JP:So, can you tell me briefly about your education growing up? You know, as a child and teenager?

JH:I went to public school all throughout -- and I tried to get into private school, but then I didn't study for the test. My mom told me I had to study on my own, and obviously I didn't do that. And then, she asked me when I was little if I wanted to go to Hebrew school and I said no, 'cause it was more school, which I kind of regret now. But that's, yeah, my education.

JP:And looking back on your childhood, what values or practices do you think your mom or your grandmother were trying to pass on to you?

JH:I know they -- they're definitely into a strong character. I remember my mom 21:00always telling me not to be a follower. To be a leader, and not listen -- always listen to what people say. And she was really big on not believing everything that was on TV or on the radio. And that's one of my -- I have multiple memories of her telling me that it's never as good as they make it look on TV, which I think is actually a really helpful lesson that she gave me. Because I have a lot of friends that will buy everything and they're -- think that they need it. I'm, like, wow. I think that it comes from her telling me not to do that kind of crap. And then, what else? Oh, and also, they were really into not letting anybody bully us. She told me and my sister and my brother growing up, if anybody hits us -- even though the school tells us not to fight back, they told us to try to defend ourselves. My mom was really big into that. I remember one time we got in trouble for getting in a fight. Another kid started it and even though I got in trouble with the school, she told me she was proud of me for standing up for myself. What was the question?

JP:Oh, just what values or practices --

JH:Oh.

JP:-- you think --

JH:Oh, and being Jewish, too. Even though they weren't very religious, I think they -- my mom really wanted me to marry a Jew. She made that very clear. And make the kids Jewish. And she w-- she used to call me, behind my back her little Jewish boy, I guess. That's what my sister told me, so it --

JP:What's the age difference between you and your sister?

JH:My sister's twenty-six --

JP:So --

JH:-- and my brother's thirty-one, yeah.

JP:So, you're the youngest by quite a few years.

JH:Yeah.

JP:And -- and how did you feel about, you know, marry a Jew, have Jewish kids?

JH:At the time, I didn't really care, 'cause I was at the oldest -- like, fourteen, and I was not thinking about that stuff. But now, it seems nice. I think I would like to, just because the more you have in common with somebody, the easier it makes it. And then there just -- it would just be -- there's a lot of things that would make it easier -- about marrying a Jew. If we wanted to go 23:00to Israel or something and -- intermarriage makes it hard. But, I mean, I'm not gonna limit myself because of religion. But it's definitely a plus.

JP:Definitely.

JH:I feel like I'm on JDate now.

JP:(laughs) I'm sorry, we're not trying to create a profile here for you.

JH:Oh, it's okay. Oh, wait --

JP:Is your phone off?

JH:Yeah, I think so.

JP:Okay, good.

JH:Should I turn it --

JP:Sure, you can try and then you can just --

JH:Oh, it's not -- oh, it's silent, though.

JP:You can just put it there, where we --

JH:Okay.

JP:-- like, face down.

JH:Okay.

JP:Okay, great, thanks. (laughs) So, can you give me a snapshot of your life since high school?

JH:Since high school -- it's a lot nicer, just 'cause I don't have to -- I have some space for my family, which is really nice. I've definitely gotten more Jewish. I got my -- I got bar mitzvahed. I became a bar mitzvah in college, 24:00which was really fun. I got to work with the rabbi. We would have meetings -- like, small groups, once a week. That was super fun. He was really interesting and he would just tell us about Jewish life cycles and stuff like that and history. And then we'd have another session once a week where students would teach us prayers, and that was really fun, 'cause it's basically half an hour of gossip but then half an hour of singing. So, that was just really great. And then, at the end, we had a big party. So, it was really fun. And the Hillel group is really small, but everybody comes constantly. So, it's a nice -- nice little Jewish community, which I didn't get growing up, which I appreciate about college.

JP:So, how did you get involved in this bar mitzvah group and process in college?

JH:Well, I started thinking about, if I wanted to marry Jewish. And even though I identify as Jewish, others -- others might not. And while that doesn't necessarily matter to me, I also realized, going through the bat mitzvah process would not hurt me at all. I would just get to learn more, which is something that I've been interested in. So, I decided to do that, because it interests me 25:00and it would make things easier down the line.

JP:Cool.

JH:Yeah.

JP:And did you encounter any sort of -- I don't know, stereotyping or negative reactions to you or pushback?

JH:Oh, when I tried to get bar mitzvahed?

JP:Just to being a Jew on campus and to being involved?

JH:On campus? No. But definitely with the Chabad house in Santa Monica, when I would try to work on my Yiddish with them, they were, like, "You can light your candles on Hanukkah, but that doesn't make you Jewish." 'Cause they thought I wasn't pursuing my Jewish identity. But for me, I was doing that through Yiddish at the time. But other than that, everybody's been really nice, (laughs) yeah.

JP:That's great. How did you choose Middlebury College?

JH:My -- I had -- I don't really know what to call him. He was kind of a substitute teacher and kind of a college person. He helped kids get into 26:00college. And he was really Jewish. He was helping me look for colleges 'cause I didn't have, really, anybody to -- 'cause nobody in my family that was around had gone to college. My sister didn't go to college and my brother was a -- who knows where? So, he was helping me, and then he found a bunch of schools that I might be interested in. And then, Middlebury had a really good language program. That's basically all I knew. And I applied early decision, and I got in. So, that was a big leap of faith. I'm really glad it worked out.

JP:Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And what do you study there?

JH:I'm gonna major, maybe, in Russian. I -- that's -- was my plan, but then Russia's gotten all crazy, so I don't really want to go there anymore. I was going to do global studies with a focus in Russian, and then we have to choose a discipline, and one of them was religion. So, I was going to do Jewish religion and maybe minor in Spanish.

JP:So, did the exploring Jewish identity happen through courses or just 27:00extracurricularly or both for you?

JH:I think it happened pretty naturally, just 'cause it was so accessible in college. A lot of my first friends that I made were Jewish and they went to Hillel and then -- so, I went. And then, just from that, I learned a lot. And then, I took a J-term class, so -- that had to do with Yiddish and -- Ansky was -- about Ansky. And so, then there's just a bunch of Jewish stuff that I happen to be learning about that. So, it seemed to just come up. I don't really know. I didn't have to do much to find it, which was nice.

JP:That's great, and --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- can you tell me about your shirt?

JH:Oh, I got this for my -- my bar mitzvah. It says "Midd Yid, I'm a Middlebury Jew."

JP:Is that a bar mitzvah that everyone received?

JH:Yeah, the other -- there was only one other girl, but she got it, too, yeah. Lots of the Jews have this shirt.

JP:That's terrific. So, you've studied or you speak English, Spanish, French, Russian, and now some Yiddish. What pulls you towards studying languages?

JH:At first, it was mostly just 'cause I was good at it and I really like talking. But then, I realized how many opportunities are gonna be available to me because I speak languages. But I think -- I think, yeah, I think mostly because I get to talk to people that I would not have the chance to otherwise. And every time I have one of those really fun conversations it motivates me to learn more. But I also think it's different with each language. I have a different connection with each one. French, I don't really have any connection with. I kind of hate that I know it. It's -- takes up brain space. I don't really like French. I don't want to go to France. But I know French. I can -- I'm conversational in it. But Spanish I really love, 'cause it's, like -- I don't know, it was -- kind of feels comfortable to me. I had lots of friends in high school and middle school that spoke Spanish. And my family kind of spoke Spanish. So I feel more connected to it. And then, same with Russian. One of my best friends' family who I spent a lot of time with in high school spoke 29:00Russian. So, I feel more connected to it. And then, obviously, Yiddish, 'cause it's my family's language, yeah.

JP:I believe you also mentioned that you're trying to tie languages in with social justice.

JH:Yes. Well, 'cause that's also something that my mom did a lot of work with. She was a state -- she was a -- attorney for the state, and I thought that was really -- I don't know, I thought it was cool. And also, you can make money like that. (laughs) So, I was thinking of being an adoption lawyer. And then -- 'cause then, that way, I'd be able to use all my languages. 'Cause there are children that -- from Africa, from French-speaking communities, I could use that. And then, I don't know, I'd put my French to use. And then Spanish and Russian, even though Americans are not allowed to adopt from Russian anymore. But there's still Ukraine and Belarus. So, yeah, that was my plan.

JP:So, that means language is tied to social justice for you in -- in the future 30:00or are there are also connections between the two for you now?

JH:Well, right now, I work with the immigrant community in Vermont, and I help teach the migrant workers English. And for me, that's a way of tying the languages and justice together. And I'm also going to try to look into -- they have a Jewish center in Los Angeles, and a lot of the people that they -- it's a family help center, and the -- lot of the people that they help are Hispanic or Spanish-speaking. So, I would like to work with them, too, and hopefully use my Spanish.

JP:When you're done school or --

JH:Oh, when I go back from this program, before I go back to -- for my sophomore year.

JP:Great. And how would you describe Jewish life on campus?

JH:It's small, but I think it's really good. They're -- the kids are pretty active. They're active in a lot of different things, not just Jewish things. So, I think you can feel the Jewish presence on campus. Also, our president is Jewish, which is nice. And then, yeah, there are a lot -- there's a big number 31:00of Jews. But there are a lot of Jews that don't really participate in events or anything, but you can still feel a good Jewish community on campus.

JP:And you said you studied with a rabbi at --

JH:Um-hmm.

JP:-- at Hillel. Can you tell me a bit more about this rabbi and how you developed a relationship?

JH:He was one of the teachers for my -- my winter class that he was teaching about Ansky. And then, me and this other girl who was in my Russian class, (coughs) we -- we just asked him about the bar mitzvah process and he told us about it, and it sounded like fun. And we did it and he -- he's a pretty Reform rabbi, but he knows all of his stuff, which is nice. And he's -- I don't know, he just knows everything. He's really fun to talk to, and he gets really into it, so it was fun to watch him explain about the temples and be really dramatic.

JP:So, it was mostly history and --

JH:Yeah.

JP:I'm just going to pause -- okay.

JH:Go ahead.

JP:So, it was mostly about history and blessings. Was there a synagogue component?

JH:No, there's a synagogue in town, but I think it was kind of far away, so we never went there, yeah.

JP:So, there was the learning and then the celebration to --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- cap it off.

JH:Yeah.

JP:So, I want to now turn to sort of asking -- parallel to your college life, if there have been any experiences, historical events, or social movements that were particularly formative to your sense of Jewish identity?

JH:I think -- maybe the -- the gay rights movement. So, there was a lot of positive Jewish interaction with that, and I feel like that was really nice to 33:00see, the community that I identify with to be so open and accepting. And I feel like it -- like, 'cause I'm also -- 'cause I'm interested in social justice, not only because it's a Jewish thing, but just because it's something that's -- that I think is important for me, and it's nice to see that reflected in the community. And it made me want to purs-- and it validated, I guess, my Jewish identity, I guess. Does that make sense?

JP:That there was space for you as a --

JH:There's space for -- there's space for me, and that there -- it was -- it did what it represented. Social justice was something that is important to the Jewish community, 'cause that's something that's important to being Jewish is incorporating social justice. So, I was happy about that.

JP:And did you have personal interaction with that or was it reading about it, hearing about it?

JH:No, but I also did work with this Jewish organization called ARK, and they 34:00work for -- well, yeah, it's kind of mixed. They do migrant social justice. And I got to go to the senator's office in Vermont. And they also do if you marry somebody outside of the state who was -- this was before the gay rights -- the marriage was passed -- if you marry somebody outside of the state of the same sex you can bring them over with a visa. So, getting the state to recognize that. And so they were all kind of mixed together there. And I thought that was very nice to see Jewish community actively participating in social justice.

JP:So, there were Jews participating in ARK with you, and --

JH:Yeah, there -- it was a group of five of us and we went with the rabbi. It was really fun. He got us bagels and lox.

JP:Well, that's great. (laughs)

JH:Yeah.

JP:And were there also queer Jewish activities involved in -- in that legislation change? Is that what you're saying?

JH:I'm not sure -- the people making those laws were, but they were included in the -- in the changes. The -- the people who were writing laws were including 35:00rights for the LGBT community in those -- the new legislation, or trying to get them those rights. And they -- and they were Jewish, 'cause it was a Jewish organization, trying to do this, yeah.

JP:Terrific. And for many Jews, learning about the Holocaust has had a huge impact on their sense of Jewish history and what it means to be Jewish. Would you say that's had an impact for you?

JH:Yeah. I feel like there's more pressure to keep the Jewish identity. Also, to learn Yiddish. And also, because it -- I don't know, I feel like knowing about the Holocaust -- that there are so many Jews that had to go through that. It makes me more grateful about what I have now, just because I literally -- I had one anti-Semitic incident that I didn't even really register when I was growing up -- and I feel like that's something that's really special. That's not the 36:00kind of life a lot of people have gotten to live, and I want to make the most of that.

JP:Definitely. Have you traveled to any sites of Jewish interest or importance, or what you think is of Jewish interest or importance?

JH:I've been to New York.

JP:And what was that like then for you?

JH:That was really cool. There was lots of different types of Jewish life going on there, which is this kind of -- it's kind of like that in Los Angeles, but it was nice to see it going on in other places. I really like how there's that Jewish music scene going on with klezmer and that synagogue that was being restored. So, I feel like, I don't know, it was really nice seeing that there's Jewish life there, but in many different forms.

JP:Are you talking about the Eldridge Street Synagogue?

JH:Yeah, yeah.

JP:And so, in which ways did you feel similarities and differences?

JH:Between Los Angeles --

JP:Um-hmm.

JH:Well, so, Los Angeles also has a lot of different types of synagogues. So, it's, like, you can -- whatever kind of Jew you identify as, you can -- there's 37:00lots of space to find it there. Even if you don't want to pursue it religiously, the -- they have lots of klezmer groups in Los Angeles, too. So if you, like -- interested in music, you can pursue Jewish identity through that. And now they even have -- Yiddish Culture Center in Los Angeles, and I feel like -- and then, obviously, there's YIVO in New York. So, I feel like there's lots of space to explore Jewish identity in both cities.

JP:Was there anything you felt -- you encountered in New York that you just can't find in Los Angeles?

JH:I think that really dense Hassidic community -- we have -- by my grandma's house, there's a lot of really Orthodox Jews. But they're not nearly as insular as the ones in New York. But you can still speak Yiddish with them, which is nice.

JP:Did you get to do that while you were there?

JH:No, 'cause I'm scared of them. They're very -- they all -- they walk really fast, so I never want to stop them. They always seem like they have somewhere to go.

JP:Have there been any particular people, individuals who've had a special 38:00impact on you and your Jewish learning or Yiddish learning?

JH:I think my mom and my grandma -- I feel like -- also learning Yiddish, I get -- 'cause I didn't get a lot of time with my grandma, and I never got to meet my grandfather. So, I feel like, because of them -- or with Yiddish, I can understand where they came from and who they were. 'Cause I feel like Yiddish had a lot of -- lot to do with forming who they were, especially my grandfather. And I know my mom as well. So, I feel like Yiddish is a way for me to understand where my family comes from, and that's inspiring to me to keep learning it.

JP:Forming them in terms of their, you know, life histories or attitudes?

JH:I think both. I think Yiddish had a lot to do with how they viewed the world. My mom had a lot of sayings, I think, that she would say that were -- now that I know Yiddish, they're the same in English. And so, I feel like that had a lot to do with forming who she was and how she saw the world, which in turn had a lot 39:00to do with how I see the world, 'cause she's the one who raised me. And I forgot what else I was going to say.

JP:Any sayings that you can remember that she used to use that you could share?

JH:Well, there is -- hak mir nisht keyn tshaynik [don't bother me, lit. "don't bang me a teakettle"]. She would say that all the time. But then, there was stuff in English. She would say, "God willing" or "Only by the grace of God." And like, now I know Yiddish and Hebrew. With this program I know that there's a -- like, you'd say that -- like, the -- and the context and stuff are the exact same as you would use on the -- in Yiddish and Hebrew. I don't know. Stuff like that. There's probably more. I can't remember right now, though.

JP:I mean, speaking of Hebrew, has Hebrew been of interest to you at all?

JH:Yes. I don't think I want to learn another language, but if I do, it would probably be Hebrew. It would be the last one, yeah.

JP:And any other ways that you want to discuss sort of the identity, formation 40:00of your grandparents and the effect Yiddish had on them?

JH:I think -- I don't know, I feel like -- for my grandfather, as much as he wanted to be American, Yiddish is always going to be a part of his identity. His mother signed his yearbook in Yiddish. And his friends from school signed it in Yiddish. So, it's, it was obviously a part of him. He raised his daughter part -- at least partially in Yiddish, 'cause she could speak it. So, I feel like the -- they -- that language had a lot to do with how he saw the world, along with English. But my grandma, I'm not sure as much. But I think it still had a decent impact on her, because she also consented to raising her daughter in Yiddish. And she still spoke it when she was an old woman. So, I think it had a lot to do with who they were. And also, my grandfather's family came from a really 41:00religious background outside of Minsk, so his family was influenced by it, as well.

JP:And was he himself religious, or did --

JH:Not at all. I don't think so.

JP:And do you know what changed between --

JH:America. He didn't have to be -- and they didn't grow up in a religious community. He went to public schools a while, so he had more secular education than religious, yeah.

JP:Interesting. So, once he was able to -- once his family was able to choose, they started moving away from that.

JH:Um-hmm.

JP:Great. So, I'd like to keep going -- and talking more about Yiddish. Can you tell me a bit about what you've been studying and learning here at the Steiner summer program?

JH:Been learning a lot of different types of -- the different ways that Yiddish function-- throughout history within literature, social movements. I guess now, 42:00after the war, like, what forms that it's taken on, and then the music and art. And then also, we're learning language, grammar, and vocabulary.

JP:Has anything in particular had a special impact on you or resonated with you?

JH:I think -- I think basically all of it, 'cause I've never had the chance to be around this much Yiddish before. So, I feel like anything that I can get at all is pretty meaningful to me. Yeah, I think it's just -- it's nice to be able to have a basis or a foundation in Yiddish, just so I can understand that whole culture and world. Yeah.

JP:And what about your peer group this summer and the fact that you're around so many people of Jewish heritage or Jewish identity? How has that felt and been for you?

JH:It's really nice, 'cause, actually, we make lots of Jewish jokes and 43:00references that I would not be able to make at school, 'cause I'm not always around Jewish people. It's -- and I think that's one of the best parts of this program. We -- all the dumb Jewish jokes we've come up with. And the Yinglish that we've made. I think that's really fun. But at the same times, as -- as much as I identify with my Jewish identity, it's not all of my identity. And being mixed race, it feels very lopsided right now, only focusing on my Jewish identity.

JP:Is there something you have in mind to sort of right that lopsidedness?

JH:I don't -- nothing specific, but I just know, when I go back to school, I'll have my other friends, too. But I'll have both worlds again. I feel like here, I have one, which is nice. I love it. But it's not -- I don't know, it wouldn't be honest for me to say that it's all of how I am.

JP:So, what's the community in -- at school that fills that other side?

JH:Well, I have -- I don't know, my -- my ethnic friends, my not white friends, which is funny -- they're separate groups. They don't really hang out with each other. But, I don't know, they -- it's just -- it's a different -- you -- you have a different story, I guess, when you grow up mixed race or just not white. And I feel like there are things you can talk about with certain people that you can't with others. It's, like, I can talk about Jewish things here, but not necessarily the problems -- or the experiences that we share -- me and my other friends, my ethnic friends I guess I would call them. I don't know. I call them that with them, but not usually to other people, 'cause I don't know if other people think it's funny, as well. So I don't know, the stuff that we talk about, it's hard to talk about -- always in a Jewish -- you can't translate it all the time into a Jewish context.

JP:What are the -- some -- what are some of those things?

JH:Well, I guess for when you're thinking of it -- a Jewish identity -- I think, 45:00as -- from a Jewish standpoint, Jews do not see themselves as white. I feel like that's something else. But when I'm with my ethnic friends, it's -- they get lumped in. So there's kind of two mindsets in my brain. But then -- and then how -- how people interact from white to color is a big discussion that is ongoing on campus and -- about how some people, they mean well, but there's still unintentional racism or ignorance and stuff like that. I usually don't have to deal with it, 'cause I'm light. But there's still, I don't know. There's race questions that we talk about. And I don't know, it's just -- they're different stories that you can talk about. And also the way I speak is different between the two groups and the jokes that I can make with one group I cannot make here. It would not be acceptable, slash it would just make people uncomfortable. And the jokes that I make here, that I would make with them, they just would not 46:00understand, so --

JP:So, is the speaking differently a matter of what you're saying or also words and how you use your voice?

JH:Yeah, I think it's both of them. 'Cause the -- I don't know, my -- I guess I feel like I should come up with another word for ethnic friends for this interview. But, whatever. My (laughs) -- my -- I don't know. We -- we -- they're not as much -- we don't worry as much about political correctness. Not -- we're not racist but when we have discussions, we try -- we just try to express ourselves however it is. It's not like with other groups of people where you have to tiptoe around subjects and things like that. And then, I guess just joking-wise, when we're comfortable with more things -- but then, at the same time, we also had discussions about when we can make these jokes and who's around and what presence and -- I don't know. I think there's -- a different mentality of being a minority, especially in our school, 'cause we all come from 47:00big cities where it's not a -- a big deal to be mixed or of -- any kind of ethnic minority. But in our school, it's -- it's become very pronounced, just because there's a huge, huge white population, and the minorities are just -- they're -- it's the first time we -- any of us have ever actually been minorities, to varying extents. So, yeah.

JP:Is there space for you to be Jewish with your quote-unquote ethnic friends?

JH:Yes. I brought them to my bar mitzvah, but that's about it. (laughs) I don't know, it's -- they're -- also, well, some of them are very Christian, so there's that. Also, I -- I've invited some of them to Shabbat dinner, which is fun 'cause it's pretty secular. One -- after the prayers, everybody can -- everybody's invited to Shabbat dinner, and those are usually really fun. But I -- I wouldn't bring them to a Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah service, just 'cause 48:00they'd probably fall asleep. One of them fell asleep at my bar mitzvah. (laughs) It was hilarious. But, I don't know.

JP:So, are -- is there a space in which you can be your full self? Like, both Jewish and a person of color? Or are you different people in each place?

JH:I think I have to do a lot of switching, 'cause there's not, like -- I'm not, like, an Ethiopian Jew. And also, they have a different identity than American minorities. So, I don't really know how to -- oops, sorry -- there's not a lot of space to do both at once -- but I also have a third group of friends, and one of them is a Jew and one of them is a Mexican Canadian American. So within that group, since everyone's pretty diverse, it's -- that one's -- I can do most everything. There's still, I don't know --

JP:It's a small group of three --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- of you?

JH:Yeah, and we're pretty open about stuff. I don't know. That one's nice. And 49:00at home, I can be whoever I -- usually.

JP:And where -- where and with whom is home now?

JH:I live with my sister and my niece. I used to live with my brother, but we had to make him leave. (laughs)

JP:He used to live with --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- you, your sister --

JH:Yeah.

JP:That --

JH:Yeah.

JP:Got it. And now it's you, your sister, and your niece.

JH:Yeah.

JP:Terrific. So, turning back to Yiddish, how does your connection to Yiddish, you know, the broad term of Yiddishkayt and Eastern European Jewish heritage -- heritage, loosely defined or broadly defined -- fit into your sense of Jewish identity?

JH:I feel like when I first started the program, it was less broad. It was just -- 'cause my grandma was adopted and I was adopted and the things that tie our family together is kind of our Jewish identity, however diluted it may be. And 50:00so, I guess that was -- that was my idea of Jewish identity and Jewish Ashkenazic heritage tying us together through language. That's why I was so interested in it. But now, I think it's nice to know about these other things, like literature and stuff, because I feel like those also make up a cultural identity in some way. Inform the language and stuff like that. So, I feel like now, at the end of this program, I feel like these extra things have informed this Jewish identity that I've been pursuing more than maybe beforehand.

JP:Definitely. And have you had mentors in learning Yiddish?

JH:I had that one rabbi my senior year, and then my neighbors, who teach -- who try to practice with me. And I -- I guess my grandma and my mom would count, too, 'cause I learned my first Yiddish words from them. But I didn't -- once I got actually interested in learning Yiddish, it was kind of already too late, 51:00'cause my grandma had passed away and my mom was sick. So, I didn't want to make her teach me Yiddish. I feel like that would have been kind of obnoxious.

JP:Do you -- do you remember some of what those first words were?

JH:I remember "mieskeyt [ugliness]." I remember "hak mir nisht keyn tshaynik." But when I was little, I was not really aware of Yiddish slash I wasn't really interested. So, things that I picked up were only when my mom would be ranting or something. Or then she would stop and there'd be a word she really wanted me to know. She'd be, like, "Mieskayt. You know what that is? Ugly!" So that's how I learned that one, 'cause I remember her saying that. And then, yeah, that's how I learned most of those first ones.

JP:We're only a couple days away from the end of the Steiner student program. I don't know if you can remember how you were thinking or feeling about some of these things at the beginning of the program versus now, you know? Can you 52:00reflect back and compare it to how you're doing now?

JH:With what?

JP:With feelings towards Yiddish or Jewish identity?

JH:I think I have a more broad interest in Yiddish now than specifically just language, 'cause I realize how much informs the -- the language. Like, Hebrew and all these other -- that's why I'm kind of interested in Hebrew more now, because it has such an influence on Yiddish. And I guess literature and all -- all -- 'cause they've shown us a lot of really amazing, interesting things, what we've been hearing -- culture classes. So, I feel like, yeah, it's my -- my Yiddish is -- my interest in Yiddish is more broad now. And then, I think it also -- even though it's a secular thing, I feel like it has also kind of made me want to pursue my religious Jewish identity more. I mean, I'm not gonna become super frum [observant] or anything. But I do want -- whether I decide to accept everything or not, I -- it makes me want to learn more about it, just because being in this Jewish community, which is the biggest Jewish community 53:00I've been a part of for the longest time -- it's felt really nice. And to have the opportunity to shift wherever on the Jewish spectrum has been really nice. So -- and also because being interested in Yiddish, I can't really do that without being interested in the religion, 'cause they're so intertwined.

JP:So, what does being interested in the religion but not being frum mean to you?

JH:Well, 'cause I feel like I can learn about it, but that doesn't mean I necessarily have to accept everything. I -- I think it's nice to be able to participate in Shabbat services and stuff like that or High Holiday services. But, I don't know, I feel like it's nice to be able to have that and then -- to have a Jewish foundation, religious foundation, and then go from there. I don't feel like everything has to apply to me, especially since I didn't grow up with it. I don't have such a personal connection to it. So, I can kind of pick and choose, mostly for cultural reasons, I guess. Then it becomes -- instead of religious.

JP:And so, to do the learning and then decide for yourself --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- feels personally meaningful --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- to take on.

JH:Exactly.

JP:Sounds like a good road ahead. (laughter) So, in light of the conversations that I know were happening in your Culture and History class this afternoon about the state of Yiddish, there -- there is a recent resurgence of interest in Yiddish, but some people still say that Yiddish is dead or dying. What do you think?

JH:I think that there are a lot of people who are very sad -- well, I'm sad, too. But it will never be the Yiddish that a lot of people really like. With all those people that have gone off the derekh [path] and have started -- they started writing secular works, but that was informed by religious backgrounds -- I feel like that's -- we're not going to have that again. But I don't feel like Yiddish is necessarily dead or dying, because it's still an influence for a lot 55:00of people, musically, artistically -- and people are still doing -- studying it academically. So, I feel like saying it's dead is kind of overdramatic, but saying it's alive is also -- it's just -- I feel like it's taken on a new form, and while it's sad that the Old World is gone, I don't think it's dead. And I don't think it's dying, because there are programs like this. While it's not -- they're not going to make a whole new generation of Yiddish speakers, but they're gonna have a generation of people who are influenced by Yiddish and Yiddish is going to come out in their work somehow -- in whatever way. So, I feel like it's taken on a new form.

JP:What do you think is the current place of Yiddish?

JH:In what?

JP:In -- in the world, in -- in Jewish life?

JH:I think Justin Cammy said something really interesting about being Jewish, you should know -- you should be fluent in some kind of Jewish language, why -- 56:00either it's religious or like Hebrew or Ladino or something. Or just being educated in your identity. And I feel like Yiddish is still a nice way to approach a Jewish identity.

JP:What do you see as the driving forces behind this revival, if you see that there's a revival?

JH:I think a lot of it is musical. There are a lot of new klezmer bands popping up, or at least that -- what -- that's what it seems like. It's not very -- conversational Yiddish is super huge again. And also, academically, I think it's become more interesting for some students.

JP:Do you see the Yiddish Book Center or any other organizations of -- as having played or playing a role in the revival?

JH:Yeah, I think -- well, any organization that offers the opportunity to young people to go back and understand what Yiddish culture was and is becoming plays 57:00a huge role, because then it gives them the tools that they need to be inspired by the language and its culture, to take it where they want to go with it and take it to new places. So, I think the Book Center has definitely had a big -- a big role in that. And then, there's things like the Yiddishkayt in Los Angeles, and I feel like stuff like that -- any program like that has a lot to do with it.

JP:Can you explain what Yiddishkayt in Los Angeles does?

JH:I think -- it's a Yiddish organization that tries to focus on teaching to college students what Yiddish culture was before the war, which I think is really important 'cause Jewish education kind of tends to skip that. There's a lot of focus on the Holocaust, which is not a bad thing, but I think there are other parts of Jewish identity in Eastern Europe that can -- that there's room to explore. And they also -- they're trying to promote Yiddish learning classes in Jewish day school, which I think is really cool.

JP:Definitely. Do you see a role for yourself and/or other young people in that revival?

JH:Yeah, I think it's mostly with young people that it's gonna be revived. I think taking it to new places is what makes it interesting and keeps it alive. And it's usually young people that do that.

JP:What -- what do you see as the future of Yiddish?

JH:I think it's going to keep being an inspiration for a lot of people. I don't know if it will -- if novels will be released in Yiddish. Original novels. But I think short stories and poems and they -- they -- there's that "Romeo and Juliet" film. So, I feel like it's still gonna be a legitimate -- so, and like the klezmer bands. So, it's going to be a source of inspiration for a lot of people.

JP:We're nearing the end of our time, but I'd like to ask if there's anything that you'd like to touch upon that we haven't discussed already. Anything at all. (laughter) What is your favorite Yiddish word, phrase, or song? Or all of 59:00the above?

JH:"Hak mir nisht keyn tshaynik," 'cause it reminds me of my mom and my grandma.

JP:And can you provide a definition? What does it mean?

JH:Well, it was mostly -- we used it as shut up. But it's, like, don't bother me. And I think the funniest moment with that was when my brother was asking for -- my mom threw away his teapot or something. It had broken. He was really into Buddhist stuff and he -- like, Asian culture, so he was making lots of tea. And then, she's, like, "I -- I don't know where it is. And he's -- he would not -- he was -- thirty minutes after mom said, "Hak mir nisht keyn tshaynik," he started screaming about his teapot. And I think that was one of the funniest -- 'cause I didn't know what a tshaynik was back then. And then now, looking back, I don't know, I think it's hilarious.

JP:That's a -- (laughs) a very literal rendition of --

JH:Yes.

JP:-- like --

JH:Don't bother me with the tshaynik.

JP:So stop banging --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- the teapot, and his annoying her was actually about a teapot.

JH:Yes, yeah.

JP:Any other -- any other Yiddish words that especially speak to you?

JH:Shikse, 'cause my mom called it -- and goyish. Everything that she didn't like was goyish. It didn't matter if it was, like -- even if it was still Jewish, she would call it goyish if she didn't like it, and I thought that was really funny. And shikse, 'cause my sister kind of looks like a shikse.

JP:So, your mom would call your Jewish sister a shikse.

JH:Yeah, yeah, and other people. Those were, like, the words that I remember most.

JP:Did your sister react to that?

JH:No, I think she kind of thought it was funny. She knows she looks like a shikse. She had nice little -- blonde hair, green eyes.

JP:And any songs or poems that have especially resonated with you?

JH:I think "Vu iz dos gesele [Where is the little street]," 'cause it's -- talks 61:00about trying to go back and find things. And I feel like -- that was one -- that was one of the first Yiddish songs that I learned. And I think it resonated with me just 'cause I've been trying to go back and find our Yiddish -- our family's identity. And also, it's hard 'cause as much fun as Yiddish is, it's sad because it's always gonna remind me of the people that are not around anymore. And so, every time I go back and try to find something it's -- I'm reminded that there's nothing left. But I also think it's a really pretty song, so lots of layers.

JP:And what does the title mean?

JH:Where is the -- the little street. It's about a man going -- or -- or woman, I don't know. There's different versions. But going back to the little village and everything is kind of destroyed.

JP:And they're looking for a particular little street?

JH:Yeah, yeah. Or -- and then the -- it goes on, "Where is that little house? Where is that school, where is the river?" And then, "I go inside the house and every -- all that remains is a dream." So, yeah.

JP:Sounds meaningful and heartbreaking simultaneously. Finally, my last question is what advice do you have for other young people interested in Yiddish language and/or Jewish culture?

JH:Google is really helpful, 'cause there's lots of things going on and you can find it on the internet. The internet makes everything great. And Facebook event -- or Facebook groups, 'cause people tell -- share all sorts of things on there. I don't know, like programs that you can do. Also, free programs -- like the Steiner program is great. And if you have a rich college, they can pay for your housing, which is nice. So, there -- Yiddish is becoming more and more accessible, so I think if you're young and interested, you should definitely take advantage of the opportunities that are available. Just have to use the internet a little bit.

JP:And in -- is that what you did? How did you find out about the Steiner summer program?

JH:The internet. 'Cause when I wanted to take classes with my mom, I was Googling a lot about Yiddish classes I could take, and the Yiddish Center was 63:00one of the first things I found. That was in the -- end of the ninth grade, which, for me, is four years ago. So, I've known for a while.

JP:And -- and so, what did you do? Did you just hold onto it until it was the right time and --JH:Yeah, yeah.

JP:You just waited until you could apply --

JH:Yeah.

JP:-- and you did as soon as you could.

JH:Yeah.

JP:Wow. (laughter) That's quite incredible.

JH:Yeah. I mean, I wasn't constantly thinking about it, but it was always in the back of my mind. And then, we -- a nice coincidence was one of the kids in the Hillel and my ninth grade -- or my freshman year of college, he'd done the Steiner program. So, I got him to tell me about it. Then he wrote me a letter, so --

JP:What -- when did he write you a letter? For what?

JH:Well, 'cause there was a part of the application -- if you knew anybody that was on the -- that had taken the program. And so, he wrote a letter for me to -- the Book Center, which is nice. And then my class came here, my winter class, 64:00which -- I didn't know they were going to come here. So I guess it was just in my cards. I was meant to be here.

JP:And this was your Ansky class.

JH:Yeah.

JP:And what did you come here for?

JH:To just look at Jewish books and there's the Ansky exhibit. And then, we also went out to Amherst to look at their Russian art and their Russian collection.

JP:Well, that was the first time I got to meet you --

JH:Yes.

JP:-- when you came through the Yiddish Book Center this past winter.

JH:Um-hmm.

JP:Terrific. Well, if you have anything else to add?

JH:Neyn [No].

JP:Genug shoyn [Enough already].

JH:Yo, genug [Yes, enough].

JP:Well, I just want to thank you personally for sharing your stories and reflections with me today. I also want to thank you on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center for participating in the Wexler Oral History Project. A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].

JH:Nishto farvos [You're welcome].

[END OF INTERVIEW]