TONY HAUSNER ORAL HISTORY

JAYNE PEARL:This is Jayne Pearl, and today is Friday, October fourt-- boy, I'm really flipping today, I don't usually do this. This is Jane Pearl, and today is Friday, October 4th, 2013. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Tony Hausner, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Tony, do I have your permission to record this interview?

TONY HAUSNER:Very much so.

JP:Thank you. So, to start off with, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background, and how they came to this country?

TH:Well, I -- I can go back to the late eighteenth century, I've done research 1:00on my family history both on my mother's side and my father's side, and several different branches of those families. We actually -- I was born in England, and came to this country -- I was born in 1942, and came to this country at the age of eight in 1950. So, if you'd like, I can start describing the history going forward in kind of a summary fashion.

JP:Sure, a brief description would be great.

TH:Okay, so first of all you should know I have Hausners on both sides, on my mother's and father's. And they're unrelated, because my mother's side comes from Galicia, and my father's side comes from Moravia and the Czech Republic. So, I got to know my -- well, I started off, my father drew trees, and he had 2:00gotten trees from his family, and he provided me with several trees, of both his side and my mother's side, so I had those trees to begin with. I had pi-- I had pictures, in fact, I have lots of pictures that go back to the nineteenth century, and that helped. And then, through a variety of research, I've been able to go much further back, so I f-- my mother's side started in Galicia, which was part of the Austrian Hungarian Empire back in -- prior to World War I. Galicia became -- after World War I, it became Po-- Poland, and then after World War II, it was Russia, and then the Ukraine. So, my mother's family has roots in -- in Galicia. And I know that -- Ira -- I'd have to look up the name again -- 3:00Hausner -- lived in Galicia back in the late eighteenth century. I have records for then -- [BREAK IN RECORDING] Ira Sabish Hausner, we think was born in Kalush, in Ukraine, that's somewhere south of a city once called Lemberg, today it's called L'viv. His son, Asyas Moses Hausner, evidently, was probably born in Kalush, and died in Borshchiv, which is not that far from Kalush. I know particularly a lot about my great-grandfather Zalmen Hausner, Solomon Hausner. Born around 1862, and, I'll get back to his death later. He died in Siberia, the 4:00Russians sent him when they captured -- when they captured the -- Eastern Galicia. So, where was I -- so, Solomon had nine children, two died in infancy, I know all the children that he had, once -- when he got married, he moved to Skala. My grandmother grew up in Skala, and my mother was born there, and left -- she and her parents left when she was one and moved to Vienna. Okay, so that's -- we'll come back to that, just to fill in, my father's side, I know -- I -- I visited all these towns three years ago, so my father's great-grandfather was born in Kojetin, which is in Moravia, not far from Brno. [BREAK IN 5:00RECORDING] I found the graves of Joseph Hausner, his son, who was -- I found the grave of Marcus Hausner, I found their homes in Kojetin. One of the things -- when I saw those graves, that was a very moving experience, to come across their graves, to learn all the details about them, and the thing that was particularly -- has captivated me, it indicated that both Marcus and Joseph, and Joseph's father, all three were rabbis. I had no idea about that --

JP:And the these -- these are your great-great and great-great-great-grandparents -- grandfathers?

TH:Right, on my father's side. I know -- their son -- Marcus's son Emmanuel moved to Vienna, and my fa-- my f-- grandfather, and my father grew up in 6:00Vienna. So, kind of to complete a little bit of the story, and we'll come back to this again, 1938, Hitler marched into Austria, with welcome arms from the Austrian people, and my father was in the military, and his friend said, "Being a Jew in the military, you're a marked man, get out of here." And he left the next day, went to Czechoslovakia and then to England. My mother left Vienna -- they only knew each other a little bit as kids, they really met in London. So my mother left Vienna a few months later, and my parents met in London, my great -- my grandparents left a year later, separately, and were in England -- England 7:00too, I just learned this, I didn't know this -- both my parents and my grandparents were interned in the Isle of Man for a year between 1940 and 1941, and we'll come back to the Isle of Man, 'cause this is a story that's not well-known, everybody knows about the Japanese internment in the United States, but not that many people know about the English treating all Germans and Austrians as enemy aliens, even if they were Jewish. So, so, in any event, my parents got out of the internment camp in 1941 and I was born in Liverpool a year later. We moved around the British Empire for several years, because -- at least twice because my father changed jobs. 1950, we decided to come to this 8:00country. My grandparents all -- a number of members of the family were in -- in New York or the United States. We came -- and in fact, my father couldn't come with us because he had a different visa. He was born in Vienna, my mother was given a Polish visa, because Skala between the wars was in Poland. So, my mother, my sister and I, came to New York, lived with my grandparents for a year, my father joined us nine months later, and we moved three blocks away, we lived -- so we lived in New York for five years, and then we moved to Pennsylvania. I'll come back to the original question, which I gave you a long answer so far, what was the original question?

JP:Well you -- you answered it, how -- how your family ended up here.

TH:Right, and, okay, I don't know if you want me to talk about the other members of the family, a number of them, mig-- migrated successfully, others died in the 9:00Holocaust, and we can talk about that some more too.

JP:Sure. We can get to that, and perhaps you could tell us first a little bit more about your childhood. And then we can go up to how you got involved in your family history research. So, would you say that you grew up in a Jewish home?

TH:Yeah. My grandparents on both sides were fairly religious. My parents were moderately religious. I went to -- I had a -- when I was in England, I had a tutor come to teach me Hebrew lessons when I was six, seven, eight. When I came -- when we moved to New York, I went to an Orthodox Hebrew school, just a -- it was not a day school, it was just after regular school I would go to this Orthodox Hebrew school. And I had my bar mitzvah there. So, we kept kosher in 10:00New York, it was harder to do when we moved to Pennsylvania, because -- so I don't know if we kept kosher there. But, we did go to local synagogue, my father was active in the synagogue, both parents were. So we had some religious upbringing.

JP:And what about your home and family felt Jewish?

TH:Back then, you mean it's growing up?

JP:Yeah.

TH:Well, just knowing my grandparents were Orthodox, my parents, you know, instilling a Jewish education in me.

JP:Were there Shabbos meals or celebrations of holidays?

TH:Yeah, we certainly -- and I have a picture of us sitting at my grandparents' Passover meal, seder, the whole family on my mother's side. Yeah, so we 11:00certainly had that kind of thing. Not a -- I don't know that we had regularly Shabbos dinners, but we did have some exposure to Judaism.

JP:Did you personally have a favorite holiday growing up?

TH:Two that strike me. Yom Kippur, because you fast for a whole day, and you dedicate it to your religion. And Passover, because it's -- it's such a family gathering, and -- over a meal, and all the traditions that go with Passover.

JP:So even as a young boy you enjoyed fasting, and observing Yom Kippur?

TH:I've -- once I became a teenager, I don't know that I fasted before then, but 12:00-- and I still -- still do that, even when the doctor sometimes tells me not to. But I think, if you look at me and what I've dedicated my life to, which is providing health and human services to populations, to the American people, it -- it's because I've learned Jewish values to -- to be charitable and to be concerned with your fellow man. And I also identify very closely with Israel, with it, you know, the meaningfulness of Israel as part of our lives. My kids have been to Israel, we've been to Israel, so.

JP:What languages were spoken in your home?

TH:My parents basically spoke German for a while, which was a positive and a 13:00negative situation for me, 'cause I took longer to learn English, but it was advantage to actually learning two languages, or at speak English. My parents understood Yiddish to some extent because of their knowledge of German, but they didn't speak Yiddish. My mother's family, her -- her parents spoke Yiddish because they came from Galicia. My father's side, having grown up in Vienna, they would not have known -- spoken Yiddish.

JP:Did your family subscribe to any publications, newspapers, magazines, or listen to the radio, or watch television?

TH:I can't recall, I suspect that my mother's father would have read the 14:00"Forwards." I -- they -- both my grandfathers davened every day. I know that I've been exposed to Jewish culture in ways but I don't recall what I have -- I've certainly been immersed in Jewish culture in many ways, as an adult, so I'm very conscious of that.

JP:And were there different languages used to discuss different topics?

TH:Well, when I was born, the first two years, my parents spoke German at home. And then they realized that I was not -- I was not speaking that much in the way 15:00-- speaking words, and so people suggested that you stop speaking German in front of me. So my parents only spoke German when they didn't want me to understand. And as I said, it slowed me down speaking English, but I understand now, if you're exposed to two languages, it actually strengthens your cognitive skills, but in any event. Yeah.

JP:And you never learned Yiddish?

TH:No, I've -- for instance, the Skala Yizkor Book, which I arranged for -- for it to be translated -- was in Yiddish, and I had people who knew Yiddish translate it, so that people, our Skala community could know what was said in that book. But yeah, no, I -- I've -- other than a few words here and there that you hear in plays, and commonly used words, I don't know Yiddish.

JP:When your grandfathers were davening, what did that feel like to you as a young child?

TH:It made me appreciate that they were connected to God and were -- had a devotion to religion and God.

JP:And, so you said your parents moved to different places early on because of your father's work, and obviously immigrating to this country. Were most of the neighborhoods where you grew up predominantly Jewish?

TH:In Scotland and England no. There were some Jews, but not a lot, and my parents had some friends who were Jewish. In New York of course, there were tons of Jews. In Reading there was a modest number of Jews, my parents -- most of 17:00their friends were Jewish, and some of my best friends in high school were Jewish also. Yeah, and now today, most of my friends are Jewish, but we have a mixture.

JP:And which places do you remember most? What they looked like, sounded like, smelled like.

TH:I just have brief memories of when we lived in Scotland, that was from the ages of two to six. I don't remember Liverpool at all. And I have more memories of Halifax, I remember -- I have some distinct memories of school, 'cause I did well in school, and did -- they used the whip there, so I remember that, and 18:00certainly I remember New York City, the five years I lived there, that was -- I've got lots of memories from there?

JP:Anything in particular, any particular memories stand out about growing up? About the neighborhood?

TH:Oh, about the neighborhood. In New York where we lived, half the block was Puerto Rican, and there were gangs there, and we occasionally had altercations with them, but not a lot. My half of the block was more Jewish, and I remember there was this one Catholic boy, close -- only a couple of houses over, and he used to try to pick on me. And I had a Jewish friend, Orthodox, who was smaller than him but a very good fighter. And he used to come to my defense, so that was 19:00much appreciated. We used to play in the back alleys, stickball and running games and things like that. I remember -- I went to some Orthodox Jewish summer camps for summer, so I remember some of those, both the positives and some of the negatives, because I was less educated compared to many of the -- the campers who were from day schools, so they knew Hebrew much better, the services a lot better.

JP:How did that play out?

TH:That was somewhat uncomfortable, 'cause I felt inferior to them, or somewhat inadequate, but I -- I accepted it to some degree too, because I realized they were getting much more of an education, so I can't hold that against me, but it was still somewhat uncomfortable.

JP:Can you tell me briefly about your general and Jewish education, both early on and then on into college, and --

TH:Don't know if I can add too much more, in terms of -- I had, I went to this Orthodox Hebrew school, we went, I think, two days a week, a Wednesday afternoon and a Sunday -- Sunday morning, something like that. When we moved to Pennsylvania, I think I was involved with USY, so I -- that was the extent of my involvement with Jewish life in -- I don't remember in college being involved so much, I actually moved away from religion, because I was asking questions, what 21:00is God? Is there really a God? Things like that. In graduate school I at least was involved with Hillel, primarily for social reasons, and that's how I met my wife. And when my kids were born, that's -- I got more involved in religion again. And I'm still not heavily involved in religion, I'm more, I don't have a traditional view of God, I have a more humanistic view of Him, but, as I say, my values really identify with what I think a Jew is about.

JP:Um-hm. So your -- would you say your identity is -- as a Jew is based mostly 22:00on values then?

TH:Yeah, values and sense of ethnic heritage, ethnic identity, I feel very strongly about Israel, it's very meaningful to visit Israel, and to see the history, but it -- to see where the temple had been and things like that, the Old City. I follow the discussions about Israel and Palestine and those negotiations, I think about it. I have a friend who worked for the US Agency for International Development. He was in Israel for several years, and he was the liaison to the Palestinians, so he lived in Tel Aviv, but he went to Palestine 23:00and provided loans, and I've learned a lot from him, and we've had lots of discussions about it. So Israel's an important part. And when we get to talking about the Holocaust, you'll see how much -- particularly, well -- you'll see my interest in Judaism through my interest in the Holocaust and my interest in Jewish genealogy, which are a main part of my Jewish identity too.

JP:Right. So, backing up just a teeny bit, what made you choose the majors you pursued in college and graduate school?

TH:I got into chemical engineering because my father was a textile engineer, and I thought engineering sounded interesting. I -- at the end of my sophomore year, I went to work for a major corporation, and I saw too much of people just being 24:00focused on making a buck, and that turned me off. I said, "It should be about not about making a buck, it's making a good product." And they were more concerned -- a number of the people at that plant were more concerned with making a buck and rising in their organization, and not so much what they did. And so I -- and then I -- I forget the sequence, but I questioned what was life all about, and what was God all about, and I got interested in psychology, at -- I think a friend of mine -- I took a philosophy course that was very inspiring, and just furthered my questioning, and then I took a psychology course, and it was very stimulating, a friend of mine got -- was also a chemical engineer, and he went on to graduate school, and he's currently doing the work that he did. 25:00And so I got into physiological, biological psychology partly because of the courses I took my senior year, partly because they were very fascinating and because of the friend -- influence. So I did my master's degree in physiological biological psychology, but I ran into some problems because I wasn't a good surgeon, didn't know that, I didn't have good manual dexterity, so then I went and taught for a couple years, and, I think partly my wife being a social worker influenced me towards social problems. And so I decided to go into social psychology, it kept my interest in psychology, but it removed me from the biological to the social side, and so that's what I got my PhD in. And then really, I've kind of, sort of, became conscious of in the social psychology 26:00program, particularly because of one professor, and the course we took, I got interested in health and welfare issues, and things like that, so I spent one year working in the Department of Housing and Urban Development, on housing issues, I did some stuff on that, in the PhD program, and then I got a job offer in the US Department of Health and Human Services. Health fits in with my issue of human services, and improving people's welfare. So I spent thirty years in HHS, mostly in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and still, as I've indicated to you beforehand, still -- I'm retired seven years, but I'm spending a lot of time on the Affordable Care Act as a volunteer. I do other things that are human service related, but that's one of my bigger endeavors.

JP:So how do you spend your summers and leisure time these days?

TH:Leisure time, huh --

JP:Actually, let me ask that question again, cause I was actually -- this was relating to your childhood. How did you spend your summers and leisure time growing up?

TH:Growing up, hm. I know when I was eight, before we moved to the United States, we spent two weeks in -- at a lake in Austria, a mountain lake. I learned to swim, somewhat there, and I remember taking the cable car up to the top of the mountain and back -- up and down, and seeing some beautiful scenery, and it was a beautiful lake, so that's one that's stuck -- stood out. I -- we went for a couple years to Orthodox summer camps, for at least a couple of weeks, and then we spent at least three years in bungalow colonies in the 28:00Catskills. And, they were in -- in both cases they were Jewish bungalow colonies, there were at least most of the people were wa-- there was one -- when I was studying for my bar mitzvah, there was a -- a man in another cabin who on weekends would help me -- help tutor me on my bar mitzvah lessons, which was very generous of him.

JP:And -- and you mentioned this summer camp, the Orthodox summer camp. Do you have any -- do you think that affected your Jewish identity at all?

TH:Mm, hard to know. Probably did some, I mean, I -- because of my Orthodox Jewish education, I can read Hebrew pretty we-- modestly well. I -- how would I 29:00put it -- I never -- I don't know what many of those words mean, I know a few of them, but I -- I couldn't tell you what most of Hebrew means, but I can read it moderately. And I'm proud of the fact that I can at least do that, but I learned certainly the -- how would you put it -- the songs that go with the prayers, and -- and when we go -- this one synagogue that we go to for High Holidays, the rabbi is -- he was previously a cantor, and he -- he's a folk musician as well, and he's an amazing guy. But he plays guitar while he does his service.

JP:What's his name?

TH:David Shneyer. He -- he's in a sense -- he's a great fan of Shlomo Carlebach. And, so he brings some of his melodies to the service. And he has six other -- six other musicians who play along with him, violin, and clarinet, and things like that. A very beautiful service. And at one point in the service, the group -- he has a -- for the High Holidays he has an attendance of fifteen hundred people, because everybody loves -- everybody who comes loves his service, I think a lot of people do. And, at least one of the songs that he sings, a whole group of people get up and dance around the aisles, which is very moving. It brings back memories when I was living in New York, and I went to Hasidic 31:00service and saw the -- the dancing that they do, the things that they do, and that had a distinct memory for me too.

JP:When did -- when was that?

TH:Probably twelve or something like that.

JP:Um-hm. And looking back on your childhood, what values or traditions do you think your parents were trying to pass on to you?

TH:I think my father was a very dedicated worker, he worked hard, and I think I inherited, or learned that value. I think both of them were quite concerned with their fellow -- their fellow persons. In many ways, I'm sure they were a big influence on me. I think my wife's been a big influence on me too, but --

JP:Have any of those values or traditions become important to you as an adult?

TH:Yeah, I think I've kind of answered that --

JP:Yeah, you have, actually, yeah.

TH:Yeah.

JP:Okay, so, I think we'll move on now to your adulthood. [BREAK IN RECORDING] I'm curious, have there been any experiences, historical events, or social movements that were particularly formative to your sense of identity?

TH:Well, I guess the best thing to go into is my awareness and involvement, in a sense, with Holocaust history. As I mentioned, my parents and family escaped the Holocaust. My great-grandfather died in a concentration camp -- not a concentration camp, a -- what are they called in Siberia -- whatever, they -- he died there. My -- one of his sons was shot to death right away by the Russians. 33:00Two of his -- Solomon's sons were -- died in the Warsaw Ghetto, and one of the sons had his family there. So -- and I have another cousin who spent time in Theresienstadt, and her mother died there -- she survived, fortunately. So, we've had -- that in itself made me very aware of the Holocaust. And I think -- when I -- at least in the later years, somewhere like 1990, in my career at at Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, CMS, I joined the Holocaust committee, and I was -- served on that committee for a number of years, commemorating -- annually we had a program where we had speakers and children's 34:00choir and things like that. I did not know that Gideon Hausner was a relative of mine on my mother's side until after he died. My cousin, one of my cousins, Evelyn Hausner Lauder, part of the Lauder family now, and she died a couple of years ago -- she knew, got to know him in the seventies, and the sixties.

JP:And he -- and he was the prosecutor --

TH:-- in the Adolph Eichmann trial.

JP:Right.

TH:So, I knew about him, but I didn't know we were related. So, in 1993, I think it was, there was a -- Evelyn's son, older son, got married. And they -- his widow, and his daughter came to the wedding, and I met them for the first time and Evelyn set it up so that I spent a lot of time with Yehudit, Gideon's wife, 35:00and then when my kids were -- my daughters were in Israel for a good part of the year, we went over to visit, to be with them, we spent three weeks traveling in Israel, and I got to meet Gideon's son as well as saw his daughter again, and spent time with Yehudit, Gideon's wife, and my kids stayed with Yehudit, and she couldn't have been more -- she gave me a copy of Gideon's book, "Justice in Jerusalem," and I really bonded with Amos and Tammy, and his kids, and have had interactions with them both in Israel and then when they -- Amos comes to New York quite a bit. So I've read Gideon's book, which is incredibly -- and I've 36:00watched -- there was a PBS show on the Eichmann trial. It took clips from the thing, as -- I mean, one, it was probably the most important of the Holocaust trials, because he brought a hundred witnesses. And all the trials at Nuremburg did not involve witnesses. It was other people testifying what happened, experts who did research, and things like that. So he put a face on the -- on the Holocaust, and I think that really made the country -- the world more aware of it. So to me, it's -- when I see atrocities in Africa, or other parts of Europe or Asia, I'm very conscious of it, and I -- that gets me very concerned that we have to remember the lessons of the Holocaust. There's another -- this Yizkor 37:00book ties in with that. Just to fill you in on the Yizkor book, you probably know some about it but -- I should hold it up. The -- many of the towns that were wiped out during the Holocaust -- Skala, there was a population of six thousand, three thousand of them were Jews prior to World War II. One hundred of them survived. Typical, very typical. Very, very hurtful. So, all of these communities wrote these Yizkor books, and the -- most of it -- our Yizkor book, Skala, had one chapter -- one or two chapters that were in English, but most of 38:00it was in Yiddish, some in Hebrew. A beautiful book. So, when I got involved in genealogy, I also got involved in learning about the town, and that's when I learned there was a Skala Yizkor book, my grandfather -- my great-grandfather's in there, a picture of him, a little bit about him -- what did I want to say? So, I -- I for myself, but also -- we had a Skala research group to begin with, there was a Skala Benevolent Society that was created in the 1890s, to help the people both immigrate, and then to help them, between the wars, to survive, because they were -- it was rough conditions between the wars. So, there's been a Skala Benevolent Society since the 1890s. They wrote the first edition. I 39:00worked with the head of the Skala Benevolent Society, he's been the head since 1960. There's not that many members of the Skala Benevolent Society, but we now have -- when I joined the Skala Research Group may have had thirty, now we have a hundred members. So when you consider that it was only a hundred survivors, we're doing pretty well to have a hundred members. So I wanted to have that book translated, which, I had to raise funds for it, I arranged for several translators, there was a lot of stages to it. So, one of the amazing stories -- in the Yizkor book, it tells you about the life that existed before -- before the Holocaust. It talks about the history of Jews in that town, from the beginning, but then it talks about what life was like for many of the people in 40:00the 1920s. And there's several stories about the Holocaust. There's this one story, I particularly want to mention that particularly moved me. This man that I know Max Mermelstein, who was born in Skala in 1925, I've become a good friend of his, he's now in his eighties. He was the head of the Skala Benevolent Society for many years, and edited the first edition. He has an amazing story in there. At fifteen, his family was wiped out. He hid in the woods for three years. Had to dig himself a hole, because when the Germans came around with the dogs, he hid himself in the hole and buried himself with sticks so he couldn't be found. He had to be very quiet for three days. So, it's quite a story, what.

JP:Do you need a tissue? (laughs)

TH:No, I'm fine.

JP:Okay, wow.

TH:So --

JP:Or do you want to --

TH:Let me -- I want to come back, are there any other stories. Oh, one final piece of the Holocaust story I think that I'll go into, is, two years ago was the fiftieth anniversary of the Eichmann trial, the start of the trial. And this woman Deborah Lipstadt, a well-known scholar, I won't go into some of the things she -- she wrote a book summarizing the trial, with a little bit of the history. A very well written book. I worked with her to kind of promote the book in the Washington area at least. I wrote a review of the book that got published in a number of places. So, it just -- my feelings about what Gideon did, my feelings about the Holocaust, are very important parts of my life.

JP:And when did -- just, when did you learn about Gideon?

TH:I did not -- I knew about him --

JP:In 1993, you said?

TH:-- but 1993 is when I really learned that he was a distant relative.

JP:And is that what sparked your interest in genealogy and your family's history, or was that already taking place?

TH:Yes, segue into genealogy. My father had given me several family trees, some of w-- most of which he had put together from various sources, and I don't know. My cousin Evelyn was having a sixtieth birthday back in the late nineties, and her daughter-in-law hired a genealogist to put a tree for her together. And that genealogist knew that I had some family trees, and she contacted me, and that's what got me going, cause I started to think more about the family tree. From 43:00that genealogist, I learned about the Skala Yizkor book, and that's how I got involved with the Skala group. And, as time progressed, I got interested in the other towns that these people lived in. Zalman lived in Skala, raised his family in Skala, and I've gotten to know a lot about Skala. But, I went -- I've learned about the town that he grew up in. I've learned some about the town the town that his grandfather sp-- lived in. I learned where Zalman's wife came from, and I've learned with Gideon Hausner's father came from. And I've also learned about where Gideon grew up, because he grew up in L'viv. So, and then I've learned about my wife's -- where her family was from, and I've learned about where my 44:00father's family's from in the Czech Republic, and we visited all those towns three years ago. I -- there must have been twenty towns and cities that we visited, and that -- that was an incredible experience to -- I didn't realize that I would get to see the homes from that far back, the homes still exist from eighteen-- early 1800s. It was very moving to see the gravestones, that was particularly moving. So, yeah.

JP:That must have also helped you uncover more information.

TH:Oh yes, I mean, as I mentioned, I learned that my great-great-great-great grandfather and his son and grandson were rabbis, and I had no idea. Well, I didn't even know -- I learned some of the names from the gravestones. So yeah.

JP:And you became a leader of seven town research groups in eastern Galicia, 45:00Poland and the Czech Republic. Is that as a result of the trip or before the trip?

TH:Before the trip. I think I g-- I was town leader for all those towns before the trip. So, one of the things that motivated me, for Skala, I took pictures of every gravestone, I took pictures of every home that Max had told me was once a Jewish home, and he could tell me who lived where, so I can share the gravestone pictures with all of the members of the group, so they can see, at least from a photograph, what their family gravestones look like. To me, I think that's quite a -- quite a treasure to be able to see that, to be able to see the homes. I didn't do -- somebody else fortunately provided us with pictures of all the 46:00Kojetin gravestones. So, but I -- I got photos of all of my family's gravestones in Kojetin, before I knew that there -- this one man who lived in the town, he and his daughter took pictures of all of the gravestones, and so those are -- they're all on the JewishGen website, all the pictures that I took. I took pictures -- some -- some towns there were no graves left, or one or two graves. in Kalush there was an extensive grave-- cemetery. In Poland there was only fragments. They destroyed a lot of it. Kojetin has a completely intact cemetery. Now, in Skala, Max Mermelstein arranged -- things had been -- a lot of the towns the graves were -- the people of the towns took the gravestones and used them 47:00for other purposes, ground them up. He at least -- and a number of towns have done this -- built a wall around the cemetery to help protect, and restore the gravestones, and things like that. And he's arranged for grass to be cut, and to be taken care of. There are some problems, but at least he's done such a mitzvah [good deed] by doing that, so, yeah.

JP:And you also have a lot of personal family history, archival information, including the letters that your father wrote to your mother when they were interred on the Isle of Man, do you want to talk about that?

TH:Yes. So, as I indicated, my -- all Germans and Austrians were declared enemy aliens in 1940. I guess the war had become so bitter between the Germans and the British that they were suspicious of, understandably, that's what happened to 48:00the Japanese. For whatever reason, it's not a well-known story. So, I have all the letters that my father wrote to my mother, I don't know what happened to her letters, obviously she wrote back to him, because he comments on her letters. And it was a tough time, they were in separate camps, not good conditions, he talks about how they had colds, bronchitis, a number of different illnesses during that time. It was interesting, he wrote to her originally in German, and then he found out that the censor had first of all stamped it censored. He wanted to make sure there wasn't anything in there that was undermining the country, so it took several days before it got to my mother. So my father learned to write in English. He talked about how they were losing property 49:00because they couldn't -- they were interned, and he had he'd opened up in Wales, and he lost that.

JP:What kind of -- what kind of factory?

TH:Textile factory, I don't remember -- I don't know if I know what it was. Maybe -- maybe my sister would know, but -- he had been in the textile business. My grandfather owned two factories when he lived in Vienna, he had a -- a lace and a chenille factory, and he lost all of that. The Germans took it all away. I have -- the Germans had all the Austrians fill out a det-- or at least all the Jews -- fill out a detailed inventory of all their properties so they knew what to confiscate. So they took it all. But they had in a golden platter exactly what they owned. I think my grandfather at least was able to take a modest amount with him, so he lived comfortable, but he was -- he was wealthy. I don't 50:00think my mother's parents, they -- they were modest means. They owned a store, but, so they didn't have as much to lose, my grandfather unfortunately lost a lot, which is another part of the story that has affected me. And I got those records from Austria, what property records my grandparents filled out, and I had them translated, so I know that side of it. So -- I digress, so my parents -- those letters are now at the Holocaust Museum, I was encouraged to share them, 'cause the story's not well-known, and you can go to Isle of Man and Hausner, and you'll find all the letters there if you do a Google. Or at least go to the Holocaust Museum's website, and put in those search terms. I gave them 51:00also to the Yad Vashem, and to this British museum that's specializing in the Isle of Man. I'm trying to think, let me find --

JP:How did you get those letters?

TH:My father's -- either my father or mother kept those letters and we inherited them.

JP:But did he give them -- did you know that they existed while you were growing up, and did they talk about those times?

TH:No. They may have talked a little bit about them, but they didn't talk much. But I've since read all of the English written letters. I haven't taken the time, I realize that I need to take the time to have the German ones translated too. One of the things I didn't know, I don't remember knowing, he refers in one letter to the fact that my grandparents, my mother's parents, were also 52:00interred, and left earlier than they did. So I don't know what happened there, but I didn't even know -- I don't recall knowing that they had been there too. I know one time my mother was having some unpleasant conditions, and my father wrote to her commander, said, "Can you help her?" And the commander treated my mother worse because of that. So he learned not to complain. I guess my mother lost a lot of weight. My father mentions that. Evidently there were people who were in sympathy with the Nazis who were in her camp. He talks quite a bit about their efforts, and people outside, friends of theirs who were in England who tried to help them get out, and I guess they eventually got out. He talks about 53:00-- he didn't -- even though -- they got together once every couple of weeks for a couple hours. And otherwise he corresponded, I guess ordinarily, it took a day or two to get from one -- side of the island to the other, the mail, because of the hands it had to go through.

JP:He was able to go see who once every other week.

TH:My wife -- I mean, my mother.

JP:Your mother, wow, so they allowed visitation?

TH:Yes. But the Japanese, I think the families stayed intact, whereas in Isle of Man they were not, I don't know why.

JP:And so they didn't discuss any of this when you were growing up?

TH:Not really, not that I know of.

JP:And so you got the letters after their -- they had passed away?

TH:Yeah, I -- at least -- I got -- my father became bedridden around 2000, and 54:00he lived like that for seven years, and I think when we cleaned out his place, that's when I acquired the letters, or he gave me the letters, or whatever. And the -- they're not only did they have a lot of valuable information, let me think where they are. Here's -- first of all, here's the wedding picture. But here's -- my father did some beautiful artwork, too, so here's -- they cover the envelope, and then -- this is -- this part is somehow when the Holocaust Museum copied this, this part on the right got included, but here's the letter that he 55:00wrote. And you can see, he has some beautiful artwork. I -- I didn't appreciate how involved he was in artwork. He always did holiday cards with a lot of beautiful artwork, and it just made me realize, it was something that he had spent a lot of his life doing. So, yeah.

JP:What do you think these letters that your father wrote to your mother reflect about their Jewish beliefs and identity?

TH:I don't think he talks about religion in there. I think -- I'm sure they must have been upset that here they were, Jews, and they were being cast in with a lot of the rest of the Germans and Austrians, and yet, they're the last people 56:00who should be treated like that, treated like any German. So, I'm sure, I mean -- I'm sure that must have been very frustrating for them too. Of all the things to happen to -- to have to escape Austria, to have their parents lose their possessions, and fear for their lives, I mean, and then -- and to have family die in the Holocaust, and yet to be treated like that. I mean, that's triple punishment.

JP:Do you see any connection between your professional path in health and human services, and your Jewish values?

TH:Yeah, I think I've indicated that, I mean, I think, to me -- I think of Jews as very generous and very concerned with their fellow man, and that's what my 57:00life's been about.

JP:Are there aspects of Jewish culture that you've been particularly involved in? I'm talking more about theater, art, music. And is there a particular work of art, or song, or book -- I know the ones relating to the Eichmann trial and such -- but that have had a special impact on you?

TH:Hm, I've always thoroughly enjoyed -- Tevye, "Fiddler on the Roof." And we came here two months ago, I had been at the Jewish Genealogy Society meetings in Boston, I've gone to them several years now. And, so this was on the way to the next part of our trip, so we stopped here for the first time. And I bought the 58:00book "Tevye." I'd never read it before, and it was a real joy to read it. I understand why Sholem Aleichem was such a -- I've loved Chaim Potok's books. I mean, they -- they were very special books. I -- this David Shneyer, the rabbi that the High Holiday services -- every two years he has a Jewish Folklife Festival, and I love those, there's a lot of music there, dancing. He's had a klezmer group for many years, that -- he performed at -- his group performed at my younger daughter's bat mitzvah, I think. So I've loved klezmer music. Yeah, I'm -- yeah, I can -- music I can relate to. I mean, when I -- this is a 59:00side-note but my parents loved the opera when they were growing up, so when we were in Vienna three years ago, I -- it was a special treat to go to the Vienna opera. And -- it was a Verdi opera, I don't remember the name, but just to be in the opera house that they -- they'd spent their youth in, was very special.

JP:How would you say your relationship to or interest in Yiddish has evolved over time, if at all?

TH:I think -- to me, being able to translate the Skala Yizkor book from Yiddish into English. We're not keeping Yiddish, so much -- it isn't helping to keep 60:00Yiddish alive, but it's at least taking what was in Yiddish, and making it available to the rest of the world, particularly the Skala group, because not that many people speak Yiddish. And, you know, you can see the richness of the language that was in there when you read what's in the books. I know a number of people who are learning Yiddish, and I -- I admire them for that. I -- I'm not that talented at languages, so I'm not going to pursue that. I studied German some, and I didn't -- I did alright but I wasn't a very good German student, so I realized that language is not my forte. But I -- at least I appreciate that I 61:00learned German. I -- it's part of our identity, so I'm glad that people are keeping it alive. I certainly -- Lansky's work is to be greatly admired -- the stories that I've heard him tell -- incredible accomplishments.

JP:What has been the most important for you to transmit to future generations about Jewish identity?

TH:I think the things I've talked about, that we learn the lessons of the Holocaust, that we can never forget, and as -- as Elie Wiesel says, to be 62:00concerned with the fate of other populations. I think Israel's survival, and a special place, is incredibly important. I get concerned with some of the views in Israel, 'cause I think we need to be more tolerant of the Palestinians. I want peace to be there, and that they get treated respectfully too. I think that there's not enough respect for the Palestinians. I mean, it's unfortunate that there's such difficulties between the two populations, but I think we contribute to that, and I think that those that are trying to achieve a mutual balance is the healthy solution to it. Come back to the question again, because that's --

JP:Sure, about what was important to transmit to future generations about Jewish identity, but also values, rituals, language.

TH:Well, to me, the more important things are the values, to be concerned with your fellow man, that it's not about making a lot of money, it's not about a lot of power, it's about being sure that everybody has -- is entitled to a decent life, and that we have a responsibility, it's a mitzvah to -- to ensure that everybody has a good life, everybody has health care, everybody -- people don't live in poverty, they don't -- to the extent that we can address those problems. 64:00Everybody's entitled to a good education, safety. I think the -- the culture, the history are important to maintain, obviously, I mean, that's why I'm involved in the Jewish Genealogy Society, to help maintain that history, that we remember the history of our families and the towns they came from, and what their lives were like, and what a rich life they've had, that we can try and preserve.

JP:And how do you think the identity of younger generations of Jews differs from yours?

TH:Well, it does concern me that there's more intermarriage. Certainly, having just seen a survey that said --

JP:The Pew?

TH:-- younger ge-- yeah, the Pew survey, that younger generations are moving away from some of the traditional aspects of Judaism, does concern me. I don't know the answers to that, because I can understand the -- we're assimilating, it's part of the process, but yet, I'm glad my daughters still identify with Judaism. Both of them had Jewish marriages, and I greatly appreciated that. One married a Jewish man, the other one didn't, but he's keeping up some of the traditions. Both of them are -- one already named her daughter through the Jewish ceremony, and the other one's about to do that for her daughter, so they will I'm sure give them at least a good Jewish identity. They're not -- they're 66:00not close to the religion, but they do keep the religion. They keep aspects of it. So, they -- they've identified as Jews.

JP:And I understand that your wife speaks some Yiddish, and both of your daughters, you had mentioned, spent time in Israel, and are learning Hebrew?

TH:Well they did. They got to be quite fluent when they spent -- Dina spent nine months and Ariel spent six months, so they got to know Hebrew pretty well.

JP:So, do you feel that Hebrew or Yiddish -- especially since your wife does speak -- has played any role in the way you and your wife have transmitted Jewish identity to your children?

TH:More so my wife. She has stronger ties to the religion. But between the two 67:00of us, we've kept traditions. We've eaten matzah during Passover, so the kids learned that. They both had bat mitzvahs. Obviously, they went to Israel because they identified with Israel -- with Judaism. They both wanted Jewish weddings, so -- yeah. My wife grew up in a stronger, somewhat stronger Jewish home, not that -- I was in a Jewish home, but hers was even stronger. And she -- she's more into keeping the traditions, lights Shabbos candles quite often. Not all 68:00the time, but a good bit. We spend both the High Holidays and Passover with friends, so we get together -- quite a few of our friends are Jewish, most of our friends are Jewish, and we all keep the holidays together, as well as with our families.

JP:And to what extent in general do you think that language plays a role in the transmission of culture and values between generations?

TH:Well, it -- it just helps you know who you are that much more. You're using the language, so you're identifying that much more with -- with the culture. It's a set of traditions that make you aware of who you are, and -- yeah.

JP:Um-hm. Despite the recent resurgence of interest in Yiddish, some people say that Yiddish is dead or dying. What do you think, and what does Yiddish mean to you today?

TH:Well, no, I think it's resurging. It did come -- it did fade out a lot, but I know quite a few people who are back into learning Yiddish. We have this Yiddish Book Center. You -- you know, klezmer music, I don't know how much of that is Yiddish, but I think of klezmer as part of the Yiddish tradition. And -- and 70:00that's become much more popular. At least in the Washington area, we have every two years a Jewish Folklife Festival, quite, quite extensive number of participants, we have quite a number of klezmer groups in the Washington area, so Washington has a pretty rich tradition of a -- quite a number of synagogues, of all groups, so it's -- it's a rich Jewish culture. And I think -- it ties in, I mean, you have -- I think a lot of people who work for the government, value giving to others. That's why we go to work for the government, because we want to make it a better world for people. And so I think Judaism is a factor in a 71:00lot of those people who work for government, 'cause the values that they learned from Judaism play a role in what they choose for careers.

JP:And, I -- because you're a social scientist as well, I'm wondering what do you think makes a language living?

TH:I think just -- it's uniqueness, that you've got something that helps you be unique, that you can share with other people, that you bring a culture to it. A sense of identity, it -- I'm sure there are other things to say about it but those are the first things that come to mind.

JP:Do you have a favorite Yiddish word or phrase?

TH:I don't know, "khutspe [nerve]" is one of them, but I'm sure there are others that don't come immediately to mind. Is "geferlekh [terrible]" Jewish, or is that German, I don't recall.

JP:I don't know, what does that mean?

TH:Impossible, or ridiculous.

JP:Say that again?

TH:Geferlekh.

JP:Uh-huh. What is it that you like about that and the word "khutspe"?

TH:"Khutspe" can be positive or negative. Sometimes it takes courage, sometimes it's being a jerk. So, it depends upon the person, and what they're doing. If it's done positively, it's particularly to be admired. When it's done in a negative way, when somebody's just so arrogant that -- it's not so desirable. 73:00And you can use that word for both circumstances. And, you have to know the context, but it's certainly -- it has a meaning that's particularly captured by the word.

JP:Do you have any advice for future generations?

TH:Oh, I think there's merit to kind of maintaining our Jewish identity, it's to be valued. But I think the important part too, is to be car-- to embrace the values of being concerned about your fellow man, that we want to preserve our 74:00identity, maintain Israel, and our -- I guess those are the things.

JP:Very good, I guess all I -- we have just like four more minutes, and if there's anything that I have left out that you wanted to mention?

TH:Probably I've hit most of the stories. I -- yeah, I think I've captured one way or the other -- I mean, to me, sharing the Isle of Man stories are -- was particularly meaningful, because giving the uniqueness of it, I wanted to be sure, and the fact that my father did such beautiful artwork, and such moving 75:00letters, I think -- I'm very grateful that I was able to share those, and that he provided those letters, kept those letters. I think, to me, the lessons of the Holocaust are to be an important part of our identity, that we have to be leaders in ensuring that that kind of incredible treatment of the world never happens again. I think genealogy can be very meaningful, you learn so much about your family, just helps you identify so much more, it's a valuable experience to see -- to learn who they are and what they were like, and to see -- to me it was very moving to see their graves, to see their homes, to learn what their life was like. And to, I've found, doing this research with my fellow town 76:00researchers has been very, a very moving experience too, to be able to share various aspects of the history of our towns with a group of people that have those roots -- adds to my sense of Jewishness and identity with where my family's from, and so, they're all -- I think, another dimension to Jewishness is the closeness of family. I think we -- many of us have close feelings about our family, we're not the only ones, but I think that's a very important part of our identity, and -- so, I think that's -- as I think about it, that's partly what motivated me genealogy-wise, my feelings about my family.

JP:Well, it's been an honor to interview you, thank you so much for sharing these rich stories.

TH:Well, I appreciate your thoughts, and being interviewed, because I hope I can pass on some lessons to people.

JP:Very good, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]