MARK WOLRAICH ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: So, this is Christa Whitney and today is October 12th, 2013.  I'm here in Oklahoma City with Mark Wolraich, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.  Do I have your permission to record?

MARK WOLRAICH: Yes.

CW:  Thank you.  So, to start, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background, your -- starting in your grandparents' generation?

MW:  I know a fair amount, particularly from what my father and mother used to talk about when we were growing up in terms of it.  So, I know my grandparents 1:00on my father's side -- my grandfather was a butcher in Piotrków Trybunalski.  Had a period of time where he was doing very well.  This was -- I think before World War I, when the Russians were occupying that area, and he was very good at assessing cows.  So, he ended up having a contract with them to assess cows as part of it.  But he ran a kosher butcher shop that I know about, him and all of my father's family there.  And also, through genealogy, we've been able to trace it back that he and great grandfather came from [Rushbashur?], and they go back generations, at least 'til the 1750s, is the earliest we could document 2:00it.  My mother and father are related, as is not unusual then.  They were first cousins.  And her father, who was a tailor, lived in Lodz and -- or Łódź -- and went -- came to the United States in 1913 or 1912, and -- but then, my grandmother, whose father was still alive didn't want to come then, and the war broke out.  And they -- my mother and her brother and sister and mother came over to the United States in 1920.  The interesting story that they always tell is -- both sides of the family, while my grandfather was observant, his children were not as -- but neither was my mother's family.  So, they were part 3:00of the left-wing movement, and my mother, at -- when she was thirty years old, which was in 1935, was not married, with -- her mother was nudging her all the time about needing to get married.  And so, she decided that she and her friend were going to go to see what the Soviet Union was like.  And, as long as they were going to do that, they -- she went back to Piotrków Trybunalski, where she had grown up, and stayed with her uncle, who was my father's father.  And my father was actually six years younger than my mother, and so when she left, she was thirteen and he was seven at the time.  And so, essentially, she got to re-know him as an adult.  And they fell in love, but she wasn't sure, so she went back to the United States and then they corresponded and decided she really 4:00wanted that they get married.  And so, she had go back to Poland in 1936.  Had to go across Germany by train in '36, which was quite a thing, for them to get married, and then they came to the United -- back to the United States as part of it.  And my father was active in the -- one of the Jewish left-wing organizations, the Po'ale Tsiyon in Poland.  But he would talk a lot, and I heard a lot of stories about what his life was like and my mother's life was like and, in fact, in 1990, my father and I and my older son went back to -- went to Piotrków.  For him, it was going back to -- 'cause I wanted to have some visual image for what the city was like at that time, so --

CW:  Were there any stories that stand out that he would tell about the -- well, either of your parents about the town?

MW:  Yeah, there were -- oh, there were quite a bit.  I could go on for (laughter) quite a long time.  My mother, when her father came to the United States, it was essentially during the war, so it was a time where there were not a lot of jobs and things were really difficult.  And so, to not starve, her mother took a job as the cook in the orphanage in Poland.  So, she and her brother and sister, essentially, grew up in the orphanage until she left.  My father's family was, as they said, better off.  And, in fact, he described how there was a -- they would have a maid or a babysitter who would take care of 6:00him, 'cause my grandmother would work in the store, as well.  And there were a lot of stories about his brothers and the children.  And then, he had brought pictures, so I also had -- so, I had quite a lot of information about it.  My father, after World War II, really tried to find any relatives who survived.  So, he corresponded with two cousins in -- three cousins in Israel and one in Paris.  And I've sort of taken that over.  So, I've kept in touch with all family members going to second, third cousins.

CW:  Were -- in -- I mean, to generalize, were there -- did there seem to be 7:00happy memories or unhappy memories about the Old Country, or some of each?

MW:  There were some of each that they had.  They had some really good memories of -- particularly about their family and some of the things they did.  They certainly also had some not as nice memories.  My mother, particularly, when they had no food and -- was struggling, and my father remembers from one time that he was beaten up by some Poles who were -- caught him out in the street at the time.  And then, of course, with the Holocaust, that sort of tainted a lot of images for -- in terms of Poland.  So, in fact, when we went back, my father really wasn't that interested in going back.  He mainly went back so he could spend a few weeks with me and with my son as part of it.  And it was really good for my son.  He really got to hear a lot of the 8:00stories and understand it.

CW:  Yeah, I'll definitely ask more about that in a little bit.

MW:  All right.

CW:  Do you know how your father became political?

MW:  He joined the Po'ale Tsiyon -- I believe he didn't specifically mention it, but I believe his older brother was a member.  I know his older brother was a member, and that probably got him started.  And that was really his social life.  He -- and where he learned a lot.  He had gone to kheyder [traditional religious school] up through having his bar mitzvah, and it was not a very good teacher.  And then, he went to learn a trade, so he really didn't have very much formal schooling.  But he got a lot in terms of literature and music and other areas through the social contacts with the Po'ale Tsiyon, so he was very 9:00much in -- he was -- they were to the left of the Bund.  So, in fact, when he came here, he would read the "Freiheit," the "Forverts" wasn't liberal enough for him.

CW:  And what about your mother?  How did -- did she talk about how she became politically active?

MW:  Yeah, so she got -- came in through the unions here.  Interestingly enough, my father both spoke and read and wrote in Yiddish.  My mother actually learned in the United States, after she got here at thirteen, and not as a child because they were speaking Polish and she went to school in Russian, in Poland, even though it was a Jewish orphanage that they were living in.  So, that -- 10:00she never -- she couldn't write or read the Yiddish.  My father would read the articles out of the Forver-- out of the "Freiheit" for her.  But for him, Yiddish was his main language.

CW:  Yeah.  So, can you tell me about the home that you grew up in?

MW:  I have one sister, who's five years older than I am.  My father was a furrier, and it was a seasonal trade, so he would sometimes be out of work for a long time.  And that went on until I was nine years of age.  And my mother, when she was young, to some extent was raising her sister, who was about six years younger than her.  So, they were very close, and her sister lived in Long Beach, which is how we got out there.  So, they decided at one point, 'cause 11:00her sister kept nagging her, and they also were a little concerned about the school that my sister was going to -- to move out to Long Beach.  So, from -- to -- from age nine through when I went away to college, I essentially lived in Long Beach, New York, which was a very nice community.  It was -- the school was about eighty percent Jewish, so -- fact, I -- even though we were not observant, I knew all the Jewish holidays, 'cause we all got off for all of the holidays.  But we didn't belong to a synagogue when I was growing up.  I regret that my parents didn't speak to my sister and I in Yiddish.  So, we never really learned it.  Well, my sister was a little better than I was in terms of doing it.  We did go to a Yiddish shule [secular school], but for me 12:00it was -- that didn't start until I was about eleven, and it was in Far Rockaway, 'cause there wasn't any in Long Beach.  There -- even though there were a lot of Jews in Long Beach, there weren't as many that were on the left side.  (laughs) And -- or as left as my parents were.  And so, it wasn't -- they didn't find that until I was older.  So, I -- it was just somewhat getting prepared for -- I had a celebration at thirteen, but without any of the religious overtones.  But I -- we did -- in the Yiddish shule -- studied Jewish history and Yiddish, but it was only, like, a year or two.  And since I'm really bad in languages, I never got quite able to -- and over the years, my parents spoke less Yiddish.  They -- when I was younger, that was how they -- 13:00always communicated with themselves.  It was not like the story that they were trying to hide -- and only used it when they didn't want us to know.  That was just their natural language to communicate with each other.  But they got more and more -- to speaking mostly English.  And certainly, they spoke English to my sister and I growing up.  They talked, as I said, a lot about the past, and we would get together with family quite a bit.  So, that was where most of my identity came from.

CW:  Yeah.  Were there any other languages in the -- other than Yiddish and English -- around, growing up?

MW:  No.  I mean, I took -- I took Latin in school, which you wouldn't speak, and then French.  But no, we didn't speak -- they -- they -- in fact, when I went back with my father in 1990, he had difficulty with Polish.  He hadn't 14:00spoken it in -- for a long time.  And it started coming back when -- towards the end of the two weeks.  But I remember a man coming up to him and talking to him, and I asked afterwards what he said, and he said, "I don't know."  (laughter) So, yeah, Yiddish clearly was their main other language.

CW:  Can you describe what your house looked like growing up?

MW:  Well, we lived in apartments, 'cause we didn't quite have enough money to own a house.  So, from when I was born through age nine, we lived in garden apartment housing in the Bronx called Hillside Homes, which was very nice.  They were four stories high and they were built with courtyards around the buildings as part of that.  And then, when we moved out to Long Beach, we actually moved around a bit.  So, we were two years in a two-family house where 15:00we rented a story, and the rent was going up and my parents didn't feel they could afford it, so we moved into a smaller place for three years.  And then, a third, which they pretty much were in until I left.  For the period we were -- those three years, I ended up sharing a room with my sister.  Otherwise, we both had our own bedrooms as part of it.

CW:  When you think about the sort of various homes, were there any artifacts, Jewish things in the home?  Objects that you recall?

MW:  Well, there were Yiddish books that I still have for my father that we had.  There was some artwork that was clearly Jewish artwork.  As part of it, we certainly had a Hanukkiah that we used there.  And we celebrated some of the 16:00major holidays in a secular way.  So, we had Passover and --

CW:  Can you describe what the -- how -- what you mean by secular observation -- holidays?

MW:  Didn't have any of the prayers as part of it.  Had the right foods, (laughs) or we lit the candles for Hanukkah, but not necessarily with any prayers associated with it.  So, I actually really had very little exposure to Hebrew.

CW:  Can you tell me about the food?  Did you have a favorite food associated with the holiday?

MW:  Well, the typical ones: matzo ball soup was a big one, certainly, as Passover, and latkes -- for Hanukkah.  The -- my mother cooked a lot of foods that were not necessarily specifically Jewish, but certainly were not things my 17:00-- the other -- my friends would be eating.  She would make calves' brains and sweetbreads and calf -- cow heart and -- and foods which were -- which I liked, but they were not typical.

CW:  Yeah.  So, when would your parents talk about the Old Country?

MW:  A lot of times, whenever we talked.  I -- it's -- it wasn't like there was a set time that we'd talk.  I was always interested in hearing stories of it.  On a more emotional level, I remember one time when they had a program, and I don't remember the program now, but it was on the Holocaust, where my 18:00father -- it's the only time I saw my father crying that clearly.  But he would talk about that.  He -- they had a number of friends who were landslayt [fellow countrypeople], who were Holocaust survivors.  So, we were continually around that environment, and I really felt very much like -- it's described -- of the second generation of Holocaust survivors, even though he didn't physically go through -- or my mother didn't physically -- either go through the Holocaust, I really felt like, pretty -- I had very little family, and I wasn't going to do anything wrong to embarrass them, which ended up being a pretty good way to grow up, actually.

CW:  Yeah.  So, you said that you had visitor -- you know, people come and visit the home.  When would that happen?  Who would come visit?

MW:  Oh, it would be on weekends.  There were friends.  It was a little harder for them once we moved to Long Beach, but even -- they would still come out, or we would go into New York, into the Bronx.  They had some friends in the area called the Coops that they would visit.  My mother was very close with her sister, and so actually it was for a year or two that they were in the business together.  And so, all four of 'em were together in the same store all the time.  That didn't work out, and so my parents ended up opening a separate store, 'cause they decided they were going to stay in Long Beach as part of it.  But we would get together quite often with -- and are very close to our cousins, my aunt's two children, as part of it.  Her brother, my uncle, we 20:00would not see as often.  And he didn't relate to kids as well, so -- but we would see them frequently, on holidays or the weekend.  There was a group of cousins on my mother's side who would get together every few months as a cousins group.  And they liked to play pinochle, and so they would all get together.

CW:  Was there -- were there any favorite sort of aunts or uncles or, you know, anyone who was really special to you in the family?

MW:  Well, my -- the uncle and aunt in Long Beach, my mother's sister, we were very close with.  I really liked -- I would go -- particularly, the store they had was across the street from my elementary school.  And so, I would go and visit with them frequently and would talk -- particularly with my uncle as part 21:00of it.  My mother's brother, my other uncle, I liked.  And he was my godfather, so I sort of felt more -- although, as I said, he didn't relate as well to children.  My cousins don't remember him as particularly friendly, as part of it.  But we were pretty close.  My grandmother, my mother's mother, who was the only grandparent who was alive, didn't speak English.  She spoke Yinglish -- particularly as she was older, and didn't relate very well to kids.  So, we didn't have -- even though we would see her frequently, there wasn't a lot of interaction that we had with her.  And she was the only -- my mother's father died six years after they came, in 1926, of what -- a pulmonary 22:00embolis-- 'cause he had been in bed for pneumonia for two weeks, which nowadays we don't do.  That created problems.  So, I really didn't have any grandparents growing up.

CW:  So, when you say that you're -- you sort of felt like a second -- the second-generation experience, how did that -- can you tell me more about that?  What -- what did that mean?

MW:  Well -- and then I wasn't -- as I said, gonna do anything that embarrassed them.  So, I never got into trouble or -- you know, I was always a really good student and a pretty obedient -- I didn't really -- not that they put a lot of demands on me, but I didn't challenge -- and they were always comfortable with whatever I did as a part of it.  I was involved in some liberal political 23:00activities when I was a kid.  That was part of it, as well.  Was determined I'd become -- you know, go into a profession that they were going to be proud of as part of it.  And, as I said, it is probably part of what has driven me to maintain and expand on the contacts my father did with all of our relatives.  And fortunately, Debbie's very oriented -- my wife is very oriented to family, even worse than I am.  (laughs) So -- and she had a large family on both sides, so that -- I think those are the main ways.

CW:  Would you -- as a secular family, was there a sense of anti-religious -- 24:00you know, would it -- was there -- did -- that sense in the family?

MW:  Yeah, there was a sense that religion was the opiate of the people, and that there wasn't much to it.  And when we moved -- Debbie and I moved to Iowa, we had two of our children then and decided to join a synagogue there, 'cause our -- the children were the only two children in this elementary school who were Jewish and really wanted the identity.  And my father gave us grief for a while about, you know, "Why are you joining a synagogue" and like that.  So, yeah, they were not particularly useful.  And I actually decided it was helpful 25:00to -- for my kids to do that, because -- whereas he had a whole environment that was Jewish, that didn't necessarily need the religious part of it -- but also actually had gone through having been bar mitzvahed and so really knew the rituals, which I didn't know at all.  So, I still don't feel very comfortable in a synagogue, that -- for understanding the Jewish culture, you're -- it really helps to understand some of the religious aspects, as well.  So, our kids went through getting bar and bat mitzvahed.

CW:  So, you -- are there any -- you know, thinking about Yiddish, are there any phrases that you remember your parents using a lot?

MW:  Yeah, one of the ones was "Gey dray mayl untern oyvn." 

CW:  Can you explain what that means?

MW:  Go three miles under the stove.  (laughs) And I don't know where it came from.  And other -- I've asked other people, and they wouldn't -- they don't -- they hadn't heard that.

CW:  When would they say that?

MW:  Oh, well, that was a curse, but they used it more as a funny statement, you know, and "Gey shlofn [Go to sleep]" was certainly very common.  I don't know that I remember, specifically, others.

CW:  Was -- what about Yiddish music or radio?  Was that part of your home?

MW:  Yeah, and I actually have a fairly good collection of Yiddish songs that -- of records.  I still have the vinyls that I had, plus some on disks and tapes, as well.

CW:  And so, when -- I mean, did you have a radio in the home?  When was that 27:00sort of, yeah --

MW:  I always remembered us having a radio in the home.  We didn't get a television until I was probably ten -- no, it would've been at eleven or twelve years old.

CW:  Are there any songs you remember?

MW:  "Tumbalalaika [Play the balalaika]" is one I've always liked that I really like.  None of us -- my parents or I or my sister -- have very good music talent.  So, we didn't do a lot of singing ourselves --

CW:  How -- why do you like "Tumbalalaika"?

MW:  I -- it was always interesting to me, 'cause it paralleled the English folk song of "I gave my love a cherry that had no stone" type -- is the same format, but was in Yiddish.

CW:  (laughs) Yeah.  What was the name of your school?  Your --

MW:  It --

CW:  -- shule, I mean.

MW:  Oh, I don't remember what it was in Far Rockaway, if it had a separate name.

CW:  Do you know what sort of school organization it was through?

MW:  It was, I think, through the Workman's Circle.

CW:  Do you remember any of your teachers or what you learned in that school?

MW:  I had one teacher who was the one who prepared me for the bar mitzvah celebration.  But I -- I'm -- I am bad on names, so I can't remember his name now.  But I have an image into it, and that -- of what we --

CW:  Can you tell me about your -- your celebration?  What -- what did you have to do to prepare for that?

MW:  We went through some Jewish history as part of it.  More recent Jewish history, the last few hundred years rather than biblical history.  We worked 29:00out a portion of my speech in Yiddish, which was -- I did through transliteration, not necessarily knowing all the things I was saying at the time, other than what -- that we translated it, as well.  That was pretty much all -- it was basically a party.

CW:  Coming from a secular home, how did you relate to religious kids your age?  Did you have sort of --

MW:  Well, I always felt a bit of an outsider in Long Beach.  Not just because we were secular, but it was a more well-to-do community, and we never had much money, so -- but from a social standpoint, where that showed up in terms of the synagogues was that most of them had youth groups, and the youth groups were 30:00from -- for the members of the temple or synagogue.  And so, I didn't -- I had a really good friend who also was from a secular home.  So, we were the -- we always hang out together.  But we had -- particularly once we got through the bar mitzvah period, we certainly had friends -- I had one friend who was a girl who was very observant, as part -- she was the only one who kept kosher and was more observant than the others.  The others would belong to a synagogue but, like a lot of people, not necessarily follow that many of the rules, particularly in terms of keeping kosher as part of it or not using cars on Saturday.  But I always felt somewhat different than the other kids, 31:00particularly after it -- and -- where -- one of the places it showed up was when I was eleven, my mother arranged for me to go to camp through one of the YMHA camps, Surprise Lake, which is the camp that Eddie Cantor had gone to.  And I had a great time, and the next year when I came back, I was twelve and all the other boys were talking about their bar mitzvah preparations, and so I really felt somewhat of an outsider at that point.

CW:  Were there any -- I mean, you talked about wanting to know about -- sort of being interested in the family history of -- were there parts of Jewish culture, history that were interesting to you as a kid, in particular?

MW:  I don't know that that stood out as much, 'cause I was so much immersed in 32:00what was a Jewish community that it didn't feel -- it wasn't something like I was different -- you know, that it was different culture than what everybody else was.  It probably felt similar to most people growing up in the United States who don't necessarily feel like there's a separate culture that they're having.  So, I can't think of anything in particular.

CW:  So, I want to ask about sort of -- after you left that area.  But first, looking back, were there values or practices that you see that your parents were actively trying to pass on to you?

MW:  Well, they cared very much about family, as I described in terms of my 33:00father, and that was certainly something that was passed on -- and keeping in touch and being close.  I was somewhat of a rebel in the sense that feeling different and coming from parents who were immigrants -- there was a period of time I really didn't want to be identified with that, so I went off to college and when -- and I also like to travel, so we lived in different places.  In fact, my mother was worried, when we were in Oregon and I was looking for a job that -- I would end up in Hawaii or Alaska and make it even harder for them.  But in terms of what we -- where we were going.  But I don't remember otherwise there being (phone rings) [BREAK IN RECORDING] -- before my grandfather on my 34:00mother's side came to the United States, one of -- the relationship was that my mother's mother and my father's mother were half-sisters.  And so, there were three sisters, and then there were four -- three or four brothers.  And one sister to my father's father came to the United States, and have -- so, their family actually was here.  One of my grandfather's brothers went to England.  And, in fact, when my mother went over to visit back in Poland, she stayed -- stopped off in England to see her uncle there as part of it.  So, there is a whole branch that grew up in England, and I've traced out pretty much all of 35:00them.  I'm -- there's only a few that I keep in contact -- they -- much harder trying to get in contact.  But I met most of ones -- we went to England, and then I sort of -- what was really striking was it was a situation where my grandfather and his brother in England married two sisters.  So, the two brothers married two sisters so that they were -- there was a close relationship with all of them.  So, this cousin who we still keep in touch with in England, when we first met them -- which was when Debbie and I went to London in 1970 -- he looked more like my father than I do, except he has an English accent and -- as part of it.  But we keep in touch with them.  His two children, actually, have emigrated to -- United States, so we keep track of -- we're in touch with 36:00them.  And then, there were -- one, as a Holocaust survivor, ended up in Paris.  He was on the French Mediterranean, waiting to go to Israel, and they -- and when they asked him what he's -- profession was, he said he was a tailor.  And they said, "Well, you -- they -- you're not going to be a tailor in Israel.  There's more than enough tailors."  So, he decided to go back to Paris.  Not back.  He'd never lived in Paris.  But he went to Paris, and that's where he grew up.  His daughter now, actually, she married an Israeli, and she lives in Israel.  And we were there in December and January of last year and got to see her again.  So, we keep in touch with her, and she has two children, so I saw them.  And then, the ninety-three-year-old I told you about, who I talked -- Moishe, his sister was a Zionist that went to Israel in 1938, 37:00went to Palestine.  And then, of course, he came over after the war.  And they -- although they didn't get along all that well, (laughs) which is a -- my father could never understand how, when there's only two left in the family, they're not close, but -- so, their kids are not -- the kids from -- the -- his sister are not close with his kids, which is a shame.  His sister died.  He's the last of the survivors, and I keep prodding, 'cause when we go over, we see both sides going up.  And then there was one sister who -- one of -- one cousin who survived and was in Sweden and then went to Israel.  But she died before 38:001956, and so I had never met her.  But I did trace out and contact her two children as -- and we've had -- maintained a little bit of contact.  The other one that was really interested in -- was the cousin in Paris, his brother saw the writing on the wall and fled to Russia with his wife, which the cousin in Paris never forgave, 'cause he felt he abandoned the family.  But he -- they went through the Caucasus and he died -- probably in Turkey, from tuberculosis.  But his wife remarried and they had a daughter and ended up in New Jersey.  And we actually didn't know about it, even though she had worked as a mother's helper in Long Beach until the time of her wedding, when she was 39:00trying to see if there was anyone -- 'cause she didn't have anybody from her side of the family, and her mother had remarried a man who was abusive, and so it was not a pleasant situation.  She had contacted the aunt that I had mentioned who had come over earlier.  And for some reason, the aunt said there's nobody here, (laughs) which was amazing, 'cause the -- that aunt actually has -- had three kids, as well.  But somehow, she got my father's name, and we've -- she lives in Los Angeles, and we keep in contact with her.  In fact, her -- I was out visiting in Los Angeles, and her son was trying to get into medical school and had not gotten in, and was going to go back and get a master's degree and try again.  And I suggested that he could probably do, as 40:00well -- not -- since he didn't really want to do the master's program -- to work as a research assistant for a medical faculty member, and if he wanted to come to Iowa, we could help him -- I could help him find a job and he could stay with us, which is what he did.  He did, and he did eventually graduate from medical school, and became a -- ear, nose, and throat doctor, did very well, and was -- and he was friends with our younger son, who was about ten years younger than him when he lived with us for about four months and then got his own apartment.  He had to work for two years 'cause no one would hire and train him, for one, but that also made him a resident of Iowa, so medical school was cheaper for him.  But when our younger son was trying to decide what to do, 'cause he found out that he liked surgery pretty late.  Like, he was almost 41:00finished with his junior year of medical school.  And I suggested he call up Joel who was this cousin.  And so, our son's an otolaryngologist, as well.  And, in fact, when -- did his residency at the University of Pennsylvania, where Joel was on the faculty on -- but unfortunately, Joel left and he's now in Milwaukee, although our son now is in Chicago, so they still have some contact.  So, we've really kept in touch.

CW:  Wow, yeah.  All over the world.  (laughs)

MW:  I generated a directory that I have revised once -- it's due to be revised again -- but that gave all the names and showed the generations, and -- of all the people in the family and where they were.

CW:  So, what was your first experience living outside of New York?  What was that -- a big -- what was the adjustment for you?

MW:  Well, I was -- it was going to Binghamton, 'cause it was when I went away to college.  Weather was an adjustment, 'cause it was a lot colder there this early than it was in the south shore of Long Island.  And it was very much different being in college, although New York still has a very large number of Jews, particularly, that were going to state colleges.  So, that aspect wasn't that much different.  And a lot with similar political leanings and the like, so that was also -- not much changed.  But being in a college, also, my father could not understand why I didn't have much of a social life, 'cause he kept 43:00telling me to join clubs, 'cause that's what he had done.  And I couldn't get him to understand that the fact that we didn't have a car in Long Beach and I couldn't drive or pick somebody up really made a big difference.  And going away to college was a -- made that all different, 'cause actually I didn't have to worry about -- pretty much everybody lived on campus.

CW:  In -- sort of moving forward a little bit in your life, you've lived all over, in -- all over the US.  And you alluded to, before, sort of how you had -- you decided to join a synagogue when -- for your kids.  Before -- sort of what was different about being Jewish, sort of outside of the New York area?

MW:  In a number of the places we lived, like Nashville or here or in Iowa, the -- a lot of the people are religious, you know?  And certainly -- but mostly Christian in terms of it -- so, it was a lot different.  I wasn't in the New York City atmosphere in terms of where they were coming -- although, in Iowa, it was, in some ways, less noticeable 'cause we -- Iowa City is a university town.  So, almost everybody worked for the university and a lot of them were faculty members or the like.  But that certainly was some of the differences, so there were a lot of traditions and things that are going on that have to do with their -- the background they're coming from.

CW:  And so, how did you meet your wife?

MW:  We met in college.  I was -- I was in a coed dorm, although a coed dorm at that time meant one wing was girls and one wing was boys.  And, in fact, when we started, there was still a curfew for the girls, not for the boys, as part of it.  But I was the dorm counselor at the desk when she came back.  She had actually been there two semesters before, but we had not run into each other, and she had been engaged to someone else at the time that had been -- that was broken off.  So, we met, basically, at -- in the dorm office. 

CW:  (laughs) Nice.  So, as you sort of created your own adult life and 46:00started to have your own family, what were the aspects of Jewish culture and what kind of Jewish home did you create?

MW:  Well, I -- we've always had a lot of -- if it's some of the artwork, some of the literature -- we have a fairly good collection of books that we've acquired over time.

CW:  What kind of books?

MW:  Books on history, books on culture that are -- and some of the ones in Yiddish that we've gotten over time, as well, that we've had.  We've certainly, with our kids, talked about it.  Even apart from the synagogue, certainly 47:00celebrated the holidays.  We used to go get together either going back east to our family or with our Jewish friends, if it was for Hanukkah or Passover.

CW:  So, were those the big holidays for you?  Hanukkah and Passover? 

MW:  And Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, yeah, and the -- in Iowa City, there was one synagogue -- only one synagogue, and then there was also a Hillel, and for the High Holidays, they would actually have a -- have -- rent out the hall in the student union, 'cause they had a lot more people than showed up for either -- than usual on Saturdays.  So, we would celebrate that, although by the time we got to Iowa -- as I said, we joined the synagogue, so we were more 48:00involved.  And Debbie doesn't do things half-heartedly, so when she got involved, she really got involved.

CW:  Do you have any special family traditions, ways that you celebrate, or things that you do Jewishly that are specific to your family?

MW:  We, early on, had written our own Passover Haggadah that was designed for the children, and -- as part of it.  And so, we would use that.  We wrote a book which Debbie's father illustrated for the story of Hanukkah that we again would read to the kids.  And we did one for Purim, although we never used that to the same extent as we did the other two.  And we've done that with our kids and our grandkid, as well.

CW:  What did you -- I mean, what was special about what you wrote in there or wanted to put in there.

MW:  We wrote it for what their developmental level was.  So, it was clearly for children and was mostly historical.

CW:  Are there aspects of Jewish history that you're particularly interested -- and drawn to?

MW:  (laughs) I -- well, I've certainly -- have been drawn to the recent history, in terms of World War II, and knew a lot about that, and about the period before World War II, particularly in Poland.

CW:  So, I'd like to ask about your trip with your father and your son.  Back 50:00to Eastern Europe, was that your first time in Eastern Europe?

MW:  Yeah, yeah, and we've been wanting to go back, and wanted -- 'cause I wanted Debbie to see -- we were supposed to go at the time that the volcano in Iceland erupted.  So, our trip got aborted, unfortunately.

CW:  And so, how did the idea come up for the first trip?

MW:  Well, as I said, I always wanted to go back, so I was the one who thought about it -- it was for my son, his graduation present, 'cause we -- he was finishing up high school.

CW:  And where did you go?

MW:  We went to Warsaw.  We -- what actually we did was -- this was -- 1990 was just after Poland was liberated.  So, it was still actually some 51:00relationship with the communist countries.  We flew to Frankfort and took a train to Warsaw.  And actually, my father and I got there first.  My son still had to finish an exam, so he came two or three days later.  And then we went from Warsaw to Lodz, and then Lodz is about a half hour from Piotrków.  So, we (coughs) went and -- Deb, could I -- get me some water?

F1:  Get some water, that's what I'm getting.

MW:  When I went to -- so, when we -- we went to Piotrków we arranged for a taxi for the day.  At that time, everything was very cheap in Poland.  And when we were there, my father had the name of a gastroenterologist whose office was in what used to be the Jewish hospital.  And he had contacted the American Landslayt Organization, 'cause he wanted to put a plaque up to recognize that.  52:00So, we got in touch with him and he was very gracious.  He was not Jewish.  The city of Piotrków had had about eleven thousand Jews in it, and it had one when we were there.  The -- what -- was an elderly drunk, unfortunately.  That was the last of them.  But the gastroenterologist was very gracious, says, "Oh, you have to come back.  I want to show you more things."  And so, we did, and then his son drove us to Krakow, so we went to Krakow. 

CW:  So, can you -- we were talking about your trip, and the contact, the non-Jewish contact that you had there.  So, how -- can you just tell me about him, personally? 

MW:  Well, he was a very nice, thoughtful man.  Described what was going on, 53:00took us to a coffee shop and helped show us around.  We got into the -- I'm -- yeah, he helped us get into the apartment that my father grew up in.  The people were very suspicious, 'cause they were worried people were going to come back to claim -- although it was not anything worth claiming.  But he went and explained, and so we at least got into see the apartment.  And we went to the cemetery, although we couldn't find any of the stones.  And then, his son, as I said, drove us all the way -- spent the day with us, going to Krakow.  We went to the salt mines there.  The funny story was as we were going there, he got stopped by the police, and he was really worried.  And then, as he came back to the car, he was smiling because they -- he got a ticket for speeding, but it was 54:00the equivalent of about a dollar or two.  And they were nice about it, which was not what they would do in the past.  So, he said he was tempted to give them twice as much and say, "I'm going to be coming back on -- tomorrow, later in the day.  Don't stop me then."  (laughter)

CW:  So, what did the town look like?  What were your impressions?

MW:  Well, it's -- was more than a town.  It's fairly -- is about sixty thousand people.  So, was -- coming from Long Beach, it wasn't too much difference in terms of size.  It was fairly clean.  The area where the -- my father's -- where the apartment was, which was right next to where he had the butcher shop, which was right across the street from the synagogue, was -- clean 55:00area, looked nice, although it was pretty poor area.  The synagogue was -- is a public library there, and there's -- except for the mogn-dovids [Stars of David] on the front, there's nothing to let you know that it was there, that there had been a synagogue there.  At that time, there was not a lot of interest in the past Jewish history in Poland as part of it -- so, it really felt foreign to me, it was -- although the people, I could see where some of the physical characteristics I have come from, 'cause I look very -- the Poles look very similar, in eye color and hair color and the like.  The people generally were nice and pleasant.  There were -- we really didn't run into much in the way of anti-Semitism.  And my father was very open about saying that he was Jewish and 56:00lived in Poland, and we were -- yeah.

CW:  What was your father's reaction to being there?

MW:  He didn't like it.  He didn't really want to go back, as I said.  He said -- he referred to it as "Nothing there for me."  He didn't feel that the Poles were very friendly or helpful.

CW:  And when you're -- when you were actually there, what was his --

MW:  Same.

CW:  Same?

MW:  Same.

CW:  Same.  Um-hm.

MW:  I mean, that was his sense. 

CW:  And what was -- I mean, what did you -- I mean, it was this three-generation trip.  So, what was the -- what was it like for your son, do you know? 

MW:  I think it had an impact on him in terms of understanding more.  I think more of -- also getting to hear my father's stories.  He subsequently, although 57:00he's not used it for anything, did tape some interviews with my father, my mother, to -- 'cause he thought maybe he'd write something about it.  And he hasn't.  (clock chimes) Never did anything with them, although by the time he got around to doing the interviews, they were older and less -- talked less about things that would be relevant for him.  My younger son, we sent --

CW:  Well, let's just wait for one sec for this to finish.  (laughs) Okay, yeah.

MW:  My younger son, we went on the March for the Living, and that had more -- much more of an impact --

CW:  Oh, can you tell me --

MW:  -- on him.

CW:  -- about that?

MW:  Well, they go first and visit the concentration camps.  And this is in April in Poland, so it's usually cold and damp and dreary.  And then, they -- for the second half of it go to Israel to celebrate Independence Day, and it's 58:00hot, sunny, and bright.  And he went through a period afterwards of becoming more observant for a while, and really did it.  The other thing that was -- made it a -- more of a special experience for him was that when he came back, he went and visited several schools to tell them about the trip, so he did presentations on it, he was on the Holocaust committee that the -- Tennessee had set up.  So, he really was much more impacted by the Holocaust than Michael was.  Michael saw the -- as much of the personal -- in terms of my father and 59:00his family, and we did visit Auschwitz.  But David, they visited Auschwitz and Majdanek and some of the other parts, so he had -- got more information on the --

CW:  So, what was the impact, if any, of those trips for you?

MW:  It was -- one of the things that was very striking for me was when we went to Birkenau, and you walk in and -- I don't know if you've been there, but there's the rail line ending at the end of -- at the camp, and how huge it is, how long and how -- realizing how immense that whole process was was really 60:00striking to me as part of it.  Auschwitz was not as much, because that was not the killing camp.  And actually, it had been a -- I think a school or some other program prior to the making it into the concentration camp, and the people who were there were -- you know, they -- there were a lot of people who died, but it wasn't where they were bringing the trainloads of people, and -- even though they refer to Auschwitz, it's really Birkenau, where you sort of -- and just the size and immensity of it, and that there -- at that point, there was not -- there was very little in Poland that reflected all the rich Jewish history of all the years that -- and the numbers of Jews that had been there.

CW:  Did you learn anything about your parents through that trip you hadn't known before?

MW:  Not -- I can't remember anything specifically, 'cause my father had talked a lot about before and I knew a lot.  I -- the -- as I said, the size of the apartment was pretty striking, 'cause it wasn't very large.

CW:  What -- can you tell me about -- can you describe it?

MW:  Well, it was basically one large room and sort of a small kitchen area off of it.  It was the whole apartment, and they had -- the people who lived there had put up some bookshelves or tall dressers to divide it up so that there was a smaller area as part of it.  Now, I know that -- 'cause my father showed me where his brother lived in a room that was a little bit aways on the same 62:00floor.  And they used the courtyard -- like, they'd put their sukkah up there, or when they had a cow that they were holding, they would be able to hold it in that courtyard area.

CW:  Can you give me an example of sort of one of your father's stories that he was able to tell in situ, kind of?

MW:  Well, he was not very happy with his older brother.  His older brother was the first son and his parents did everything for the first son.  So, he went to -- and dropped out of Gymnasium.  He took up photography and he was a lousy photographer.  Didn't go well.  He went to Palestine and got sick and came back.  And my father always felt that he had -- that he was a very selfish 63:00person, and jealous of everybody else.  My mother would talk about that, too, because he expected that my mother coming from the United States was the rich American and -- that would give them -- be able to help them, give them money and the like.  And so, he was very disappointed when she couldn't do much of that, although my father really liked my brother's wife.  And, in fact, one of her relatives is still alive in -- that we keep in touch with, who's -- was living in Florida and now she's back with her children in New York as part of it.  And he really cared very much for his nephew.  That was the picture I showed you, of that Khaymek, that -- so, I -- that -- and how nice a boy he was 64:00and do -- have that -- we had the -- and like when my father came to the United States, he really felt guilty about -- that he was coming and -- they were trying to bring his father over and they didn't do it.  And we had a postcard that his brother had sent him in 1938.  And that one, we got translated.  It was in Yiddish and translated, and he was -- the postcard, essentially, was putting a guilt trip on my father about -- he wasn't there for when his mother died and how much pain she had and how sad it was and -- for everybody as part of it.  So, I heard a lot about that, and that -- when his brother came back 65:00from Palestine, his father had -- because somebody owed him money, acquired a treyf [not kosher] butcher shop in addition to the one that he had, which the next son down -- Evan Zalick had -- was running, and when Ishlad came back from Palestine, he went into work in that butcher shop and created no end of grief for his brother, who died of sepsis from a cut on his hand.  And so, my father always really -- he had something in -- with his brother.  Interestingly enough, he had another brother who I think he just didn't think was a very smart person, 'cause he didn't -- he knew very little about him.  He worked in a meat 66:00processing plant.  We have a picture -- he got married, but my father didn't remember his wife's name, and it didn't sound like he had much to do with him.  He had to do with his older brother and then his sister, who was about a year younger than -- older brother.  But this younger brother they didn't -- and then, they had another brother who had a brain injury from falling off the deck that -- who still lived with his parents.

CW:  The -- having your interest in the sort of recent Jewish history, did -- was there anything that was enhanced or changed by actually being in Eastern Europe?

MW:  Well, I got a better understanding -- also, an interest in wanting to go back.  And so, we have been in touch with a person who was a vice mayor there and who's actually found some documents for us -- a time that we'd like to go back and to look again, as -- I didn't feel very much in the way of attachment to Poland.  Clearly, the history that was relevant for me is all gone, and it's not there in Poland anymore, although I know there's been a resurgence in interest in that area.  Certainly when I was there, that was not something that was interested -- it was -- even still, as the Soviet Union had done, where in 68:00Auschwitz there, it was very rarely referred to as the Jews who -- there was the victims, and -- of Auschwitz, which had -- was more than just Jews as part of it.  So, I really didn't feel very much like there was a lot of attachment, although I did -- I specifically, to get some better feel, arranged that I met with some of the -- one of the pediatricians in Piotrków and with a group in Krakow so that I could get some feel for the medical community there, as well.

CW:  Well, I'd like to ask a little bit about how you've been connected to Yiddish in your adult life.  I know you've been in some Yiddish groups in the 69:00various places you've lived.  Can you tell me about that?

MW:  Well, we've tried to -- well, one of the things I've done in the community that's not specifically Yiddish is -- both in Nashville and in Oklahoma -- I've been on the Yom Hashoah Remembrance Committee and have worked with developing the yearly remembrances that we've had for that.  With Yiddish, I didn't do much while we were in Iowa.  There weren't -- the community there was really small, and there really weren't many -- any to speak of as far as Yiddish speakers.  Where we were in Nashville, there were several who had an interest.  And so, we tried getting together, but it was the blind leading the blind.  None of us were really speakers on that.  And then, here, with Renata, 70:00we -- and there was a group -- now we have eight and soon we're probably going to have nine who were able to get together.  We've gotten a lot farther than I was able to get in the past.  I tried doing it myself, but it's pretty hard.  (laughs)

CW:  Yeah.

MW:  Particularly -- until we got here, Debbie wasn't very much involved.

CW:  So, what is -- would you say, sort of looking at the big picture -- what are important parts of your Jewish identity?

MW:  I think the -- Jewish history is -- Yiddish is the culture that went with that part of the large number of Jews who came in the early part of the 20th 71:00century.  Some of the political activities certainly were very much a part of it, and what I -- sort of resonate.

CW:  Do you -- are there any books, works of art for you now that are meaningful, or favorite -- Yiddish or other ones?

MW:  I -- certainly Chagall's pictures, in terms of pictures.  We've got one reprint of -- oh, actually two that we have of his that I have always liked.  And I had read a number of Singer's books, and -- I'm really horrible at 72:00remembering names, but -- I'm blanking on his name now.  And I've read a lot of the books related to the Holocaust, although I'm trying not to read too many more, 'cause it's -- ends up being too much for me to take.  I'll read a few and then stop.

CW:  Yeah.  So, Yiddish literature in translation, in --

MW:  Yeah, Sholem Aleichem, I certainly grew up with a lot of those, reading them in English as part of it.  I.L. Peretz.

CW:  And in terms of -- how does Yiddish fit into -- sort of Yiddish and also Eastern European Jewish heritage fit into your Jewish identity?

MW:  Well, it's -- I realize it's the background I come from and that that -- that I was raised with as part of that.  So, it's helpful to -- for me -- to give me a better understanding of why I think the way I think, and where I'm coming from.

CW:  When you look at your kids and younger generations, what do you see that's different for them?

MW:  They're -- some of it is the same, but not necessarily for all the kids.  So, for my younger son, he's got more of the sense of family, and he'll go out of his way in terms of contacting -- more so than our older son will.  I think 74:00they both have the -- come to similar place that I've been in terms of having a very strong Jewish identity, not necessarily religious, as part of it.  And so, I think they both have that.  Our daughter is a different issue, 'cause our daughter's adopted and she's American Indian, and she's chosen to want to identify much more with being American Indian, which, for her, is very appropriate.

CW:  And what role, if any, has Yiddish language had in your Jewish life and identity?

MW:  There're certainly expressions we use, and we can -- or notice that other 75:00people are using that they don't necessarily realize comes from Yiddish.  It's the closest I've come to being able to speak any other language than English, and --

CW:  What are some of the phrases you use?

MW:  "Gey avek [Go away]," "Gey shlofn" we did with the kids when they were smaller -- within the group, "Vos makhstu [How are you doing]" and "Sholem-aleykhem, aleykhem-sholem [Hello, hello back to you, lit. "Peace be unto you, unto you be peace"]," and --

CW:  It's a part of your --

MW:  Yeah.

CW:  -- lexicon, yeah.  What -- I guess I'm -- I just -- I'm curious, sort of, what has Yiddish and your interest in Jewish history added to your life?

MW:  Well, I think it's clearly -- that's what my identity is.  That's where 76:00-- coming at -- from -- it has also given me a better sense of being in a minority, because it's -- particularly if you take a place like Oklahoma City, there are ways that I'm very similar, having grown up in the United States, but there are distinctions that I really notice.  We noticed, like, particularly when we went to Israel, the difference with being -- around Christmastime here and Christmastime in Israel in terms of the difference.  And that's given me better sensitivity to some of the issues of minorities, and what I -- professionally, what I deal with is a lot of kids with disabilities.  And so, I have a better understanding of disability, which is also its own community.

CW:  Well, I have just one more question.  But do -- is there -- or two more questions.  Is there anything else that you want to say that we haven't talked about in terms of Yiddish or Jewish identity?

MW:  Yeah, well, I've really been encouraged with the Yiddish Center, of how much it's at least preserving it.  And as we talked about earlier, in terms of contrasting that with the struggle that some of the Indian tribes are having, in terms of maintaining that language -- now, the tribe that has been -- one of the tribes that's been most successful in United States has been the Cherokee, and that's because the Sequoyah developed the alphabet to be able to write down Cherokee and other tribes haven't had that same benefit.  And I think Yiddish 78:00being written is -- it certainly has enabled it to be preserved more.  But I hadn't learned about Ladino until I was an adult, and I hadn't realized there was a whole other language.  And some of it, I think just has to do with culture, 'cause we're not in a community where people would be speaking Ladino when I was around Ashkenazi Jews all the time.  But it seemed to me like that language hasn't flourished as well in use, just because nobody was speaking it.

CW:  Yeah.  It's an interesting connection there with the native languages, yeah.  Some people are still saying that Yiddish is dead and/or dying, what do 79:00you think about sort of where Yiddish is today?

MW:  Well, I don't think it's as vibrant as languages that are used, 'cause outside of the Ultra-Orthodox community, it's not being used as an ongoing language as much.  So, I don't think -- it certainly doesn't have the vibrance it had in the -- in the early part of the century.  And that's not just the phenomena of Jews disappearing from Europe.  It's certainly been very much true in United States.  There -- now very few Yiddish speakers among the Jews in the United States, as well, so the -- and I think that's a factor of there aren't ghettos where people spoke -- I mean, my father grew up basically in the Jewish 80:00ghetto in Piotrków where Yiddish was the daily language that you used.  And I think without having that, it doesn't have as much of the changes that you have with a fully living language.  I think there's enough going on that it's going to be preserved, but I don't know that it's ever going to be its own language that -- or there's not going to be a Yiddish state, separately.  And certainly, Hebrew is what is very much part of Israel.

CW:  Is there -- how do you feel when you speak Yiddish?

MW:  Well, I like it when I can do it.  I just -- what happens with me is -- is not remembering the words to make it enough -- but I probably do a little bit 81:00more than some of the other people in the club in terms of speaking it, because I grew up so much hearing it.  And for some of them, they didn't have as much exposure.  Anita did.  Anita's actually better at it than I am.  And Renata is -- that's her forte, is language.  She -- I don't -- she probably told you -- was a language teacher and speaks French, Spanish -- (laughs)

CW:  Yeah.  So, what do you see as the future of Yiddish?

MW:  Well, I think it'll -- as long as there are enough people who are interested in -- to keep it going, it'll be there.  As I said, I don't see it necessarily growing and picking up as a -- an area.  It'll be a secondary 82:00language for -- I hope for people.  My kids are not learning Yiddish, so I don't know what will happen in that -- I think if you get in the situations like we have where we weren't speaking Yiddish, so they're -- we're not conveying it enough.  They have even less than we do.  So, I don't think there'll be a lot unless they have an interest and go back and learn it as a second language.

CW:  Well, I'd like to end by asking if you have an eytse, a piece of advice for future generations?

MW:  Probably this -- advice is to -- whether talking about Yiddish or other things, to have a good understanding of where you come from and why and what the -- what are some of the background -- from history and experience and family 83:00that help to form what you think and value as part of the process.

CW:  Well, a sheynem dank [thank you very much].  (laughter)

MW:  Nito farvos [You're welcome].

CW:  Thanks so much for taking the time and sharing with me.

MW:  Well, thank you.

CW:  Thanks.

[END OF INTERVIEW]