JORDANA DE BLOEME ORAL HISTORY

JESSICA PARKER: This is Jessica Parker, and today is Tuesday, December 17th, 2013.  I am here at the Association for Jewish Studies conference in Boston, Massachusetts, with Jordana de Bloeme, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project.  Jordana de Bloeme, do I have your permission to record this interview?

JORDANA DE BLOEME:   Yes.

JP:  Thank you very much.  So, I'd like to start with talking about your family, if we may.  Can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

JD:  Where's they're from?  I --

JP:  Yeah.

JD:  So, well, on my mom's side, my grandparents were from -- well, my grandfather was actually born in Canada, in Hamilton, but his parents were from 1:00-- just outside of Warsaw, but I don't remember the town, and I should.  (laughs) And my grandmother was actually born in Minsk.  And then, on my dad's side, my grandmother was born in Scotland and my grandfather was born in The Hague.  And then, they came over as teenagers, I think.

JP:  Do you know how or why?

JD:  Well, so my grandmother who was born in Minsk came over as a baby, actually, and it was early 1920s.  So, they came over -- probably for economic pursuits, but also his -- they didn't want to be living in the Soviet Union, essentially.  And actually, here's a story for you.  So -- (laughs) no, well, I do know that -- or the family lore, I guess, is my great grandmother came over because some man in whatever town she was living in near Warsaw was stalking her.  And she was sent over to Canada to get away from the stalker who -- I 2:00probably shouldn't be telling this whole story, (laughs) but anyway -- and so, the story went that she was sent -- so, she was sent over to Canada and got lonely, sent a ticket for her sister to come, and her sister didn't want to come.  And instead, the man who was stalking her came and surprised her, and he was my great grandfather.  So, it turned out okay in the end, but -- (laughs) yeah, so -- and then, on the other side, they mostly came over for economic reasons.

JP:  And would you say you grew up in a Jewish home?

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JD:  It was definitely a Jewish home.  My dad was not Jewish, so we celebrated Jewish holidays and -- plus Christmas.  Without a Christmas tree, but -- (laughs) yeah, that was the one thing my mother would not allow for some reason, but other than that, we, for some reason, did presents and stuff for Christmas.  And we'd go to my grandparents' but, I mean, I was mostly -- it was 3:00mostly a Jewish home, but I definitely had both sides, too.

JP:  Was there anything else about your home that felt Jewish to you growing up?

JD:  That felt Jewish?  I mean, I guess it -- like, it mostly -- I don't really know how to answer that.  What does it mean to feel Jewish?  (laughs) So, I mean, we celebrated all the holidays and everything.  (BREAK IN RECORDING) It was definitely a Jewish home.  I think just the fact that I went to a Jewish day school -- we didn't keep kosher or anything like that, didn't keep Shabbat.  Not a traditional home in any sense, but --

JP:  But you were getting that Jewish education.

JD:  Yeah, yeah, that was definitely very important for both my parents.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

JP:  Did you speak English in the home growing up?

JD:  Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

JP:  I know you grew up both in Toronto and in -- Ottawa first and then Toronto.  Can you describe your neighborhoods growing up?

JD:  Suburban, essentially.  Like, we lived in Nepean, in Ottawa.  Well, I 4:00guess that's just inside of Ottawa, and then when -- moved back to Toronto, it was Thornhill, so I don't know.  (laughs) But the other Thornhill -- Markham-Thornhill, Green Lane and Leslie, Thornhill.  (laughs)

JP:  And what makes that the other Thornhill?

JD:  Well, unless that is the Thornhill that -- the real Thornhill.  I don't know, when you say Thornhill, people tend to think Promenade, I find.  (laughs)

JP:  And were you connected or engaged with the Jewish communities in your neighborhoods growing up?

JD:  Neighborhoods -- no, not neighborhoods.  But in -- I guess in Ottawa, we did not belong to a synagogue there.  I just went to -- probably because we would -- for all the holidays, we would go to my grandparents' in Hamilton, but -- and I -- so, I guess that's why we just never went anywhere.  But then I went to Hillel Academy for -- up until grade five.  No, grade four.  I don't 5:00remember, sorry.  (laughs) Yeah, so, I mean, the neighborhood itself was very -- I don't remember a lot about that particular neighborhood.  It wasn't -- yeah, I think it was -- it wasn't in the same sense of -- that you get in Thornhill, where you get large pockets of Jewish communities -- or I could be totally wrong about that, 'cause, really, I don't -- when I think back to it, I guess, I don't get that sense, that the neighborhood where I grew up in Nepean, Ottawa, was particularly Jewish or not Jewish.  It was snowy.  (laughs)

JP:  Who were your friends in the respective places?

JD:  Where did I make friends?  What -- I don't -- what do you mean by the question?

JP:  Were they --

JD:  Like friends --

JP:  -- from your Jewish day school?  Or was it --

JD:  Yeah, yeah.  No, it would've been from school.  When you're a kid, you 6:00make friends at school, I don't know.  Where else do you find friends?  Yeah.  (laughs)

JP:  Extracurricular activities --

JD:  Oh, true, true.

JP:  -- or from the neighborhood, sometimes.

JD:  True, yeah, yeah.  No, I think it was mostly from school.  I think any extracurricular activities that I did were also with friends from school, so --

JP:  So, mostly Jewish friends.

JD:  Yeah.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Yeah.  I think the only non-Jews I knew growing up were my dad's family.  That's so weird.  (laughs)

JP:  Did that make for an awkward dynamic, at all?

JD:  I don't think so, no.  I mean, when you're a kid, you don't know these things, right?  It just was what it was.  (laughs)

JP:  What organizations, if any, were you and your parents involved in when you were a child?

JD:  What do you mean by organizations?  Youth groups, or --

JP:  Religious or youth group or political or --

JD:  My parents weren't involved in anything like that.  No, I guess -- I 7:00think I went to some USY things growing up maybe, but --

JP:  United Synagogue Youth, the Conservative movement's --

JD:  Yeah, yeah, I mean when -- in Toronto, we did belong to a conservative synagogue, and I think it was one of those things where you get a free USY membership for a year for your bat mitzvah or something, and -- (laughs)

JP:  And you went to camp, as well.

JD:  Yeah, yeah.  I went to two different Jewish camps, B'nai B'rith of Ottawa and then Camp Shalom, which is a Young Judaea camp, but --

JP:  Were they different or sort of in -- similar vein?  Different from each other, I mean?

JD:  From each other?  Yeah, I think they were -- I don't remember a lot.  I was real -- I was nine years old at B'nai Brith, so I don't remember a whole lot about it.  But there was definitely more of -- because after Shalom, I ended up going to a non-Jewish W camp.  (laughs) You're from Toronto, you know that 8:00term.  (laughs) Probably shouldn't say that on camera.  (laughter)

JP:  My understanding of a W camp is a camp that start -- whose name starts with the letter W that is not actually affiliated Jewishly, but --

JD:  Right.

JP:  -- mostly Jewish participants.

JD:  Right.  Right, right, right, so -- which is a whole other conversation, which is actually quite interesting when it comes to the camps and Ontario, I think, and Toronto, Jews who go to camp, but --

JP:  Well, do you want to say anything about that?  What is that conversation?

JD:  I think it's a conversation that needs to be written about, that someone hasn't yet written about, or maybe they have and I'm not aware of it yet, but -- no, but I mean definitely Camp Shalom, for example, they have an agenda, and they -- there definitely is, they -- I mean, it was a Zionist camp, right?  It's a Young Judea camp.  And they had the Hebrew word of the day, every day, and there were -- holidays were mentioned for -- as part of activities.  And 9:00parts of Jewish history, I guess, were taught in various ways, like reenacting the Spanish Inquisition, but -- (laughs) which, when you think about it -- I think I was twelve years old when I went there, it's a little traumatizing.  I don't -- but then, the -- I guess -- no, there's definite -- there's -- I don't really know where I'm going with this, but --

JP:  And how was that different from a W camp --

JD:  Yes.

JP:  -- which is not necessarily Jewishly affiliated, but communally Jewish.

JD:  Well, yeah.  I mean, there's definitely -- I mean, first of all, not everyone at those camps are Jewish.  By the way, the W camp I went to was not -- was one of the ones that did not start with the letter W.  (laughter) But no, I mean, I think they're very much -- I think with those ones, it's mostly -- there seems to be a tradition, at least in Toronto, among Toronto Jews -- and I don't know -- I guess because I don't know their communities very well -- I 10:00don't know, same thing -- but where you kind of -- you go to camp over the summer, and that's sort of what you do, whether or not you go to a day school or a public school.  So, I mean, with those ones, they're always kosher-style, or sometimes kosher-style.  They claim to be.  And I guess they're just not as -- even culturally affiliated.  I wouldn't even say that they're culturally affiliated, thinking about it.  I don't know.  Doesn't really answer your question.  (laughs)

JP:  It's okay.

JD:  Sorry.

JP:  No, that was still informative and helpful, your impressions about the camp system.  So, I mean, you're talking, in a way, about how camp in Toronto is part of the larger Jewish educational system, and I was wondering if you could summarize for me, please, your general and Jewish education, sort of over the years now, ranging into adulthood.

JD:  (UNCLEAR) Okay.  I mean, I went to a Jewish day school growing up my whole life.

JP:  Which one?

JD:  I shouldn't say my whole life, so -- well, I started out at -- well, so my life story -- (laughs) I started out at Associated, actually, in Toronto, and then for -- that was, like, nursery school JKA thing, and then moved to Ottawa and went to Hillel Academy there.  And I think Hillel is more -- and I could be wrong now, but I think it's -- I guess -- the community in Ottawa's not as big anyway, right?  So, it wasn't really -- it was more of a community, I guess, school.  At the time, there was Hillel, and then I think there was another one, too, that was more -- it was considered more Orthodox, and -- but was almost French immersion, and Hillel was the Anglophone one, so -- and then, when we came back -- my family came back to Toronto, I went to Associated.  The Lesley campus, though, (laughs) which no longer exists, and then CHAT, the Community 12:00Hebrew Academy of Toronto.  And then, I started my undergraduate degree at York, where I focused on -- well, I was in the Jewish education program there, and I ended up doing -- I think the -- they call it the Hebrew and Judaic Studies Proficiency Certificate or something.  But that was when I started taking a lot of Jewish studies courses, and that was actually how I became involved -- more involved in Jewish studies.  And so, I mean, I don't see my -- that was really where I developed more of an interest in modern Jewish history, and specifically Eastern European Jewish history in Yiddish, in particular.  And it was really the modern Jewish history course that I took at York that led me towards Yiddish and Yiddish studies, and just sort of -- for me, it was more a section of -- or a part of education that I felt was lacking in my own education that I didn't receive growing up at day schools and specifically at CHAT.  So, I mean, things could be different there now, but -- so, for myself, 13:00it was more a void, I guess, that I felt that I had to fill.

JP:  So, a void in terms of modern Jewish life?  Were there specific aspects that you thought you were missing?

JD:  A void in terms of my own knowledge, I guess, at the time of -- it was more, I realized, that -- well, I shouldn't say realized, but it was more -- I mean, the -- growing up, the history that I was always taught was sort of -- it was very -- it was like snippets of history, and you didn't -- or at least I didn't learn a lot about Jewish life before the Holocaust.  And there was always -- for the way that I was taught, it always seemed like there was sort of this large void between medieval Jewish history, and then suddenly the Holocaust happened and the State of Israel was founded and that's Jewish history.  And, I mean, that's just the impression that I received from my education, and then 14:00taking this modern Jewish history course where -- I mean, all Jewish history was touched upon, which is a really hard thing to do, obviously, in one class.  But it was mostly seeing -- just the dynamic of Jewish life before the Holocaust, in particular.  And not everyone walked around and was Hasidic, and not everyone was -- not everyone was left-wing socialist, either.  People were just people, and that there was more of a society to study there.  And it's just something that I wasn't aware of -- was more -- well, I should have been aware of it, but was -- I found it interesting, and I felt like this was something that was not -- it doesn't need to be a focus, necessarily.  I mean, it's a focus of my own work right now, but it wasn't even touched upon at -- sorry, I'm talking with my hands.  (laughs)

JP:  No, it's totally fine.  Just be careful --

JD:  Okay.

JP:  -- not to hit the microphone.  But you're --

JD:  Sorry.  I'm so sorry.

JP:  -- welcome to talk with your hands. 

JD:  (laughs) Yeah, so just -- what was I talking about? 

JP:  Oh, just that modern Jewish history --

JD:  Oh, okay.

JP:  -- for the most part had been left out of traditional Jewish education.

JD:  Yeah, yeah.  And I would not -- I wouldn't say modern Jewish history, but, in particular, certain aspects, I think, of modern Jewish history, and sort of -- I mean, I guess I remember learning certain things.  It's really -- it's -- it was basically -- and so, they taught Graetz's "History of the Jews" -- I forgot about Dubnow's history.  (laughs)

JP:  Can you say more about how those differ from one another?

JD:  So, I mean, just the idea that -- I mean, Graetz -- or was it -- yeah, it was Graetz, or -- yeah, who -- I mean, in his history, he doesn't include Eastern European Jewish history, right?  So, that was really the part that I felt was left out of my own education.  And for me, too, that was where my 16:00grandparents or my grandmother and my great grandparents were from, was that whole world, right?  So, it's like their entire history was being left out of the day school education that I received, at least.

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JP:  I do want to ask, though, how your interests shifted, though, from --

JD:  To academia?

JP:  Yeah, from education in that way to academia.

JD:  Yeah.  I mean, for me, I just -- I wasn't feeling fulfilled teaching little children.  I mean, that was really -- it was part of that, partially, also knowing that what I was interested in -- I mean, teaching academia's a lot more than just teaching students, and obviously that's a huge part of it and that's a very important part of it, too.  But I really enjoy the research aspect and the writing aspect.  And that part was -- well, I guess because of my upbringing and because of the education that I felt that I had received and that I -- and that I felt that parts were missing, that was a part that I felt 17:00that I had to go and study on my own, and -- but I -- it would be hard for me, at least, to be teaching in a school system where those things are left out.  And that's not to say that they're currently left out.  I don't know, but just in a school system that maybe focuses on other aspects I would necessarily focus on.

JP:  Sure.  I'm wondering, who were some of your academic mentors or influences in this academic journey?

JD:  I mean, I -- well, I did my undergraduate degree at York, and I took the modern Jewish history course, actually, with Professor Weiser, Kalman Weiser, and he -- I know he's done these before.  (laughs) But, yeah, so it was his course, and actually his Yiddish class was the first class -- the first Yiddish class that I ever took.  And then, I think it was the following summer or maybe 18:00the year after, I don't remember, but I ended up then continuing on with Yiddish, because there wasn't another course for -- there wasn't another -- there was no intermediate class for me to be taking at York at the time, and I ended up taking it -- I went to the zumer-program [summer program] in the -- when it was part of NYU, the YIVO NYU zumer-program, and I think that particular -- that -- it was really that program that led me more towards being more interested in Yiddish studies.  I don't think I really knew what I was getting myself into when I started that program, and I had Brukhe Caplan as my -- I think she still teaches Yiddish.  I hope she does.  So, she was my grammar teacher, and -- what was his name?  Avrom Lichtenbaum?

JP:  Um-hm.

JD:  Yeah, from Argentina.  He was for -- I had him for literature, and he was fantastic.  And that was really the first time, too, that not only was I 19:00studying Yiddish literature in Yiddish, but it was my first -- that was my first time really studying Yiddish literature, was with him, so -- and then, I think the following -- and then, I went back and redid the summer program again the following summer, and I had Eugene Orenstein -- Orenstein as my literature professor that year, too, and that was fantastic, so -- because, I mean, I -- my whole -- my -- methodologically, I really am a historian.  So, I mean, obviously the literature aspect is important.  But I -- it was -- those were really the first times that I was studying literature in depth, and in the original language, too, which I think makes a huge difference.

JP:  And to some extent, if you can handle literature, you can handle historical documents, because -- well, maybe I can ask you if that -- if you think that's true, because sometimes literature can be more surprising than maybe what you can --

JD:  I think literature can be more -- maybe it depends on what your training is, but I think literature often can be more difficult than historical documents.  I mean, often -- I mean, literature itself can be a historical document.  But looking at a poem or even prose can actually -- and try to figure out what the author was trying to say -- and early 20th century, late 19th century, what was Abramovitsh trying to say?  Or even Peretz who's, I think, more difficult?  But, yeah, I mean, I think that's a lot more difficult, actually, than reading a letter or reading a death certificate or reading minutes from the Vilna Educational Society, which is what I do a lot right now, so -- (laughs) yeah, no, I would argue that literature is actually much more difficult to read and understand than historical document.

JP:  Right, yeah, that's --

JD:  They --

JP:  -- that's what --

JD:  -- yeah, no, sorry, I just -- they take different skills, too, right, the --

JP:  Yeah, that's what I thought, too, because if you're reading historical documents, they usually cleave to the parameters of reality more than --

JD:  Sometimes.

JP:  -- literature is diff--

JD:  Well, yeah, they can.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Yeah.  No, but I also do think -- I think they're not necessarily all that different, too, at the same time.  And they are definitely -- there's crossover, I would say, because, I mean -- and maybe this is the historian in me talking, but when I read literature, I also like to look at it within the historical context, and I think that helps you understand the literature more, too.  So, I think people should do both.  (laughs)

JP:  You mentioned some of your mentors in learning Yiddish.  Were there any other specific people with whom you studied?

JD:  Yiddish in particular or -- I think I did the -- oh, I did the forsh-seminar [research seminar] with -- there was -- that was -- I need a moment to remember the year.  (laughs) I don't remember the year.  Is it in there?  Sorry.  (laughs)

JP:  Where was this?

JD:  I think in Tel Aviv, the -- maybe it wasn't.  It doesn't matter.

JP:  Oh, in 2008?

JD:  Two thousand --

JP:  That one?

JD:  Or was it 2009?  I don't know.  Yeah, so it was the Yiddish forsh-seminar, too, the two-week -- I don't know if they do it every year, every couple of years, but it's a two-week graduate seminar for graduate students in advanced Yiddish studies, run all completely in Yiddish.  And it was held at Tel Aviv University the year I did it.  And I think it was -- Avraham Novershtern was there, [BREAK IN RECORDING] Yitskhok Niborski was there, and 23:00Eliezer Niborski, his son, and David Roskies gave a seminar, as well, about autobiography. [BREAK IN RECORDING] I mean, that -- actually, that seminar in particular was really -- I mean, it was short and it was very -- but it was very interesting, because it included grammar and literature and modern or more modern Jewish history as it pertains to Yiddish studies, and -- plus old Yiddish literature, too, which I find -- which I haven't had a large background in, and it's obviously part of it and it's interesting, and -- but, yeah, I mean, for me, the combination of literature and history together, especially when looking at Yiddish studies is really important, and I think it helps inform one's knowledge of Jewish life and interwar Poland, which is particularly what I study.  So, yeah.

JP:  How did you decide to learn Yiddish in the first place?

JD:  It was being offered at York, and it was the first time that I was being offered, and it was just -- it was something that -- just out of curiosity, I guess, more than anything else.  Again, it was right after -- when I started my undergraduate degree, I hadn't really intended on taking anything that had to do with Jewish history or Jewish studies, and at some point, I think in second year, I started -- I got more -- became more interested in Hebrew Bible, but then it was this modern Jewish history course that I took that fit into my schedule.  And it was really through that course that I found -- because I found it more interesting, which I really wasn't expecting to find -- things that I was missing, I guess, within my own knowledge.  And so, because of that course -- then when Yiddish was offered and the opportunity came up for me to take it, I -- it was really just out of curiosity, I guess.

JP:  And it sounds like the first and the second summer at YIVO helped spark this, "Okay, I'm -- this is more a path I want to take."  What was it about your experiences --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- there that set that set that trajectory for you?

JD:  I think it was -- definitely the first summer, it was being sort of in that academic environment, and a different academic environment than I was used to, getting out of Toronto, especially, and finding all these other people -- because, I mean, that was -- it's a huge program, or at the time it was a huge program.  And finding all these other people who are also really interested in studying very similar topics -- and everyone had so much to -- I just felt like I had a lot to learn from other people who were there and from studying the language more and learning more about the literature and the culture, and not 26:00just -- I mean, I guess my original interest in studying Yiddish and modern Jewish history, in particular, together was more -- and even though right now, I do Eastern European Jewish history, it was -- there I felt like I was more exposed to American Jewish history and immigration history, and things that -- even though I'm not working on them right now, they're all part of the story, I guess, the larger aspect of it and the larger aspect of the culture and how it evolves.  And I think with those programs, too, they're just very -- they're really important, and not just the one in New York, but all of those Yiddish summer programs.  They give you a sense of the culture and the language and everything about that culture that you're not going to find just by taking an elementary Yiddish course, or even an advanced Yiddish course throughout the year at a university.  I mean, those are important, too, but I think it gives you a better nuance that you can't -- it's not like you go to Yiddishland and 27:00immerse yourself in the culture, because it's not like learning German and going to Germany, for example, and -- I shouldn't make the comparison between Yiddish and German.  (laughs) But, yeah, no, it's not like you can just pick up and go immerse yourself in the language of some country, because it is a stateless language and it always was.  And so, I think that's really why these summer pro-- I know that wasn't your question, but that's really why these summer programs are so important, because they really give you the knowledge and the nuance that is so important to understanding the culture.  That's completely part of the language.  So--

JP:  Great.  I'm wondering if you can give me a sense of the Yiddish scene in some of the places you've studied Yiddish.  I mean, I know that's sort of a difficult question when you're immersed within a specific program and you don't necessarily venture out.  But you've studied Yiddish in Toronto, in New York 28:00City, in Tel Aviv.  If you interacted with the scenes, what are your impressions?

JD:  I mean, I think it's definitely more possible to be part of the scene, quote-unquote, in a place like New York, definitely.  And, I mean, you mentioned venturing out, and that's the thing about -- that was really what I found with New York, where that was -- you can venture out and find the Yiddish scene, I guess.  There is much more that is there -- there are more people.  There are more people who speak Yiddish, there are more people -- more young people, I guess, who speak Yiddish.  And at the time, I was in my early twenties, and so -- and you don't find that in Toronto.  Toronto, you more have to -- you have to find it, whereas, in New York, kind of -- and even in -- Tel Aviv, I don't really know, because I wasn't there for long enough.  The program 29:00itself was only two weeks, and then I spent a year living in Jerusalem.  So, I'll talk about Jerusalem instead of Tel Aviv if that's okay.

JP:  Please.

ABut my -- I think my joke that I used to say was in Jerusalem and New York it finds you, whereas in a place like Toronto, you have to find it.  And before I left for Jerusalem, people were already telling me, "Contact Eliezer Niborski, who -- he and his wife, they hold a Yiddish -- they hold a reading group every week.  And so, the-- I knew that these places existed, and I think I ended up on an email list without even trying to find it.  So, they found me, whereas in Toronto, you really -- either you have to create it yourself or somehow you have to find it, and I feel like you probably have to create it yourself there.  I mean, the population just doesn't exist, and in Toronto, it's very -- there 30:00aren't as many people who speak it.  Aren't as many young people who speak it, I should say, or who want to speak it.  There are people who speak it, they just don't necessarily want to.

JP:  And why do you think they don't want to?

JD:  I have to think of an answer that's appropriate.  (laughs) I think in Toronto, a place like Toronto -- and I could be wrong now, because being a decade removed from when I first started seeking it out myself -- or almost a decade removed from it -- but I think there's a different sense of what it -- of, I guess, what it represents, and not necessarily in a positive sense, maybe?  It's like the language of your grandparents, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you speak it.  It's just what they spoke.  And, I mean, a lot of times, I find when I meet people who ask me what I study and they find out that 31:00I speak Yiddish -- and they'll say something like, "Oh, yeah, that's a really funny language."  And it -- yes, there are joke words in Yiddish, but there's -- it's an actual language that people spoke and still do speak.  And that's -- I don't know.  I don't know if it's the awareness isn't there in a place like Toronto.  I mean, it's a smaller city.  Smaller community, I guess.  But there's just a different sense of what the language is, I think, and what it represents and what it can represent.  I think it's also a bit more indicative of Canadian Jewry in general, but -- (laughs)

JP:  Well, I kind of wanted to follow up on that and ask in what way is it indicative of Canadian Jewry?

JD:  Actually, I shouldn't generalize (laughter) completely.

JP:  Okay.

JD:  So -- but, no, I think -- I mean, and what little I know about places like 32:00Montreal and Winnipeg -- that they do seem to have larger, more burgeoning Yiddish-speaking communities than Toronto does, which, I think, is also interesting, since Toronto also had a school and places like Winnipeg and Montreal did, and I think maybe still do.  I don't know if Montreal -- they still teach Yiddish in the schools.  But it's just -- yeah, I don't really know why it never took off in Toronto, I guess, the same way as these other communities.  I guess my Canadian Jewish history isn't -- (laughter) my knowledge of Canadian Jewish history is not good enough, but -- (laughs) to actually really answer that question, but yeah.

JP:  What is your experience of different Yiddish-speaking populations?

JD:  I mean, my experience is more -- probably more among the academic community.  So, yeah, more among younger Yiddish-speaking academics, because 33:00that's sort of where I see myself fitting into, I guess?  Secular academics who try to speak Yiddish amongst each other.  So, yeah, I guess maybe that's why I feel like places like New York or Jerusalem and Tel Aviv have a larger population.  And even Warsaw, too, I -- that's -- I don't know.  (laughs) I find -- Yiddish is one of those things where, for me -- this isn't really -- doesn't really answer your question, but for me, at least, it was always -- especially when I -- it was really important for me when I was doing my research abroad, I guess.  It was a way -- obviously for my research itself, it's useful, clearly.  I wouldn't have been able to do it without it.  But it was 34:00also sort of a way for me to meet other people.  And, I mean, I came to places like Warsaw not knowing anyone, or knowing one or two people.  And there used to be a reading group, actually.  I don't know if it still exists, but Katka Mazurczak, she's -- I think that's her last name.  She -- she's a friend of mine.  But she started a reading group, a Yiddish reading group in Warsaw, and that was how I met people when I was abroad at -- in these places for months, and -- 'cause it's -- for me, it's been a really good way of meeting people, I guess, 'cause it's -- you might not have much in common, and then, at the time, my Polish wasn't that great.  And so -- but it was a common language, I guess, among -- between me and these other people who are there, so -- (laughs)

JP:  I want to go back to your travel in a bit, but I want to ask first: how did you come to the specific research topics that you work on or have worked on?

JD:  So -- well, my dissertation, particularly, deals with secular Yiddish education in interwar Vilna, as opposed to the rest of Poland.  And for me, I came to it just from reading things.  I guess -- actually, as an undergrad, I read, in my attempt to try to practice Yiddish in between the zumer-programen.  (laughs) I was reading one of Kazdan's books -- I started reading one of Kazdan's books on secular Yiddish education, and I can't remember which one it was that I was -- 'cause he -- well, he wrote two large compendiums of Jewish education, not just Yiddish education, and the history of Jewish education.  And obviously, it -- he wrote them a while ago.  They're flawed, as anything might be, but -- so, I guess I just started reading that and found those things 36:00-- just interesting, and I originally just started reading it to practice my Yiddish.  And it's probably a strange thing to pick up and randomly start to read, but -- so, yeah, for me, it was more -- I guess people talk about TSYSHO, Tsentrale Yidish Shul-Organizatsye, as part of all of Poland, and -- whereas I'm looking at it specifically in terms of Vilna and the regional aspect of it in Vilna, and it was the TSBK and then later VILBIG, the Vilna Educational Society.  They came about in very different contexts.  Or, I mean, a similar context, but there were some -- there were differences in Vilna, where -- versus the rest of Poland.  And my dissertation in particular really focuses on this trajectory of the community and I'm using it in terms of identity and 37:00Polish/Jewish relations, and how that particular community that was Yiddish-speaking and were involved in the schools -- and not just the schools, but the after-schools, too, and the clubs, and scouting organizations -- because, I mean, as private schools, not everyone went to them.  So, there were people who did not go to the schools who were involved in this community, as well.  And, for me, what I'm really interested in is sort of this trajectory that took place over the interwar period, where Vilna Jewry was very much part of Lithuanian Jewry or saw themselves as part of Lithuanian Jewry, and how this evolved through those who weren't involved with the Yiddishist community, sort of -- I guess sort of like a trajectory from Lithuania to Poland, if that makes any sense.  (laughs)

JP:  It sounds really interesting.  I'm wondering, in light of that, in -- 38:00your methodologies and the fact that you use Yiddish, but you're focusing on Eastern Europe -- how do you define yourself academically?

JD:  As an Eastern European Jewish historian, although I am in a humanities department, so -- but mostly, methodologically as a historian.

JP:  Can you describe how, if at all, your academic interests and personal life connect or relate or intersect?

JD:  I think, for me, studying -- I guess studying the secular -- well, secular, I'll put that in quotation marks -- Yiddish-speaking community has really -- even though I grew up going to a religious school, at home we weren't necessarily religious always.  We had Shabbat dinner and lit Shabbat candles and -- but it wasn't really in a religious context.  And, I mean, my mother was 39:00not anti-religious by any means, and she grew up in a traditional home herself.  But I think, for me, it's more of a way of relating to my Jewish background through history and -- through language and history, as opposed to through religion and God and all those things that one would connect with religion.

JP:  So, now going back to what you opened up before about travel and finding community in different places.  I first want to ask about all the different languages you speak, read, and/or write, 'cause I saw the list and -- has English, Hebrew, French, Yiddish, German, Polish, and Lithuanian on it.  And I'm wondering if your research necessitated their acquisition or if you had these languages and it fed into the work that you were doing?

JD:  Well, I think my research does necessitate all of those languages, 40:00definitely.  I mean, I guess I came to graduate school with Hebrew, French.  I mean, just growing up in Canada, in Ottawa in particular, I already had French.  And I guess I don't really use French with my work.  But, yeah, no, so I came to it with Hebrew and Yiddish already, and French.  And then I did have to learn Polish and then Lithuanian in order to read the documents.  And, I mean, you can't -- I mean, that's the thing about studying Jewish history, and especially Eastern European Jewish history.  You have to know the languages, and you do have to know the co-territorial languages, as well.  I mean, when I said the original languages, you have to know the Jewish languages and then the languages that they spoke on -- like, that the co-territory spoke.  (laughs)

JP:  How was the experience of learning Yiddish similar to or different from learning German and Eastern European languages?

JD:  I mean, German -- well, so, I didn't -- I mean, I didn't spend as much 41:00time learning a language like German as I did with Yiddish, and I actually came to it as a graduate student and studied it with other graduate students, and my Yiddish, as a Germanic language, very much helped with learning German.  But, it wasn't -- I mean, the biggest difference there is that you can't go to the country to study it.  You have to find the -- I mean, as I was talking about before, that really shows the importance of these summer programs.  But it wasn't, I guess -- or I guess it's what's great about those summer programs, is that it does allow students to get as close as they ever will, I think at this point, to go into -- as one would go into a country and taking an immersion type of program.  But Lithuanian, I learned with a tutor, and then -- but Polish, I 42:00originally studied it in Poznan at the Adam Mickiewicz University, and it was actually a very similar type of program as I had done at the zumer-program, where it was language classes, literature classes, cultural classes.  I learned Polish dances, and -- (laughs) just like I learned Yiddish dances.  (laughs)

JP:  And where was the Polish program?

JD:  That was in Posnan.  So, in the western part of Poland, at Adam Mickiewicz University.

JP:  As a scholar of Eastern European Jewish history and Yiddish studies, what was it like to go to Vilnius, Lithuania, and to Warsaw, Poland for the first time?

JD:  Vilnius was -- that was interesting.  I went sort of -- my first -- there -- well, the main research that I did there was over the course of a winter in Vilnius.  And so, it was interesting.  It was alienating, and -- but also very 43:00eye-opening.  And it really -- there was something about being there in the dead of winter and spending time by myself, essentially, because I wasn't -- I didn't know as many people there as I know in a place like Warsaw], just because somewhere like Warsaw I knew people from -- sorry, have to think about this for a moment.  So -- (laughs) in Warsaw, I knew people from other Yiddish programs, actually.  And in Vilnius, I didn't, and I was only there for the archives.  And I'll never forget my first day traveling on the trolley to the end of the line, trying to get to the Lithuanian State Archives, and I got lost and had to trudge through the forest in the snow.  But all I could think of was the Bund in the forest.  (laughs) But it was definitely -- the archives were really 44:00interesting there.  And the ar-- I remember when I put in my order, and the archivist who was downstairs where these documents were -- I guess it was downstairs -- actually don't know if it was down-- in my mind, it was downstairs.  But she actually came out, because no one had ever ordered these documents before.  She hadn't remembered anyone ordering them before.  And then, they were covered in mold.  And so, yeah, no, I mean, that was -- it was -- I think maybe because I write specifically about Vilna, and you don't really get a sense of -- there is a Jewish museum there, but I think it was closed when I was there.  And there isn't really as much of a Jewish presence.  And I hate to say it like this, because I know I'm not completely right, but my own sense was that I didn't feel this Jewish presence that exists currently in Warsaw and places like Poland.  There's more Judeophilia, I guess, going on in Poland, for 45:00better or for worse, I don't know.  But it was definitely more isolating, more alienating -- and this sense of void, I think, in Vilnius, which is sad.  And that's not to say that that's what actually exists.  That's just how I felt.

JP:  I'm wondering if you encountered different reactions to your work when you conduct research at archives in Vilnius versus Warsaw versus Jerusalem?

JD:  You mean, by archivists, or --

JP:  Or people you're sitting next to in the archives who are asking you what you're looking at, or even the conditions of the materials.  Are they taken care of differently --

JD:  Okay.

JP:  -- in different places?

JD:  Yeah, yeah.  I mean, in -- definitely the conditions in the -- I mean, I think Vilnius is where I found more actual, tangible materials than anywhere else.  Other places, it was either newer materials -- or not newer, but -- maybe a decade newer, late 1930s as opposed to late 1920s.  But they were -- 46:00yeah, I will never forget the mold that was all over these documents that I was looking at in Vilnius.  And, yeah, it was as though it wasn't -- I don't want to say that it was not taken care of, but I didn't find that in other -- at -- I haven't found that in any other archive, actually, that I've personally looked at.  Yeah, no, there wasn't really -- I mean, I didn't really find among the archivists -- they were just archivists, and they were really nice.  I have a -- the archivist -- I can't remember her name, but the archivist in Vilnius was -- she was really helpful and really nice and really pleasant.  And I think -- and that was one of my first actual research trips abroad.  Actually, that was the first research trip that I did in Europe, and I was surprised, I think, at how nice she was.  (laughs) Doesn't really answer your question.  (laughs)

JP:  What is it like to go to Israel versus to Eastern Europe to access Eastern European Jewish archival materials?

JD:  I mean, in Israel, they're -- good question, actually, because -- I say this because in Israel, the majority of the archives that I use that were actually originally from Eastern Europe -- well, specifically, I found -- I used a number of archives that had originally been from the Lithuanian state archives.  And this was before I went to Lithuania, and there it was all on microfilm, and -- which is fantastic, and that's a fantastic source that they have.  But it's all held at the Central Archives for the History of the Jewish People.  And I think that, in particular -- I mean, it is a great archive, and their resources are fantastic.  But it's not the Central Zionist Archives, it's 48:00not the Jewish National Library.  It's the -- it's basically the Diaspora archives of anything that has to do with Jewish history not within Israel.  And it is in what looks like a bunker or some -- it's not actually a bunker, but that's basically how it -- what it looks like, sort of at the foothills at the Hebrew University campus, the one that's -- I think Givat Ram campus?  Is that?  Yeah, okay, sorry.  (laughs) Yeah, so the -- I mean, that particular -- I mean, that says more, I think, about Israeli society or the state and its relationship with Diaspora -- with the history of Diaspora Jewry than anything else.

JP:  The positioning and --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- what the building looked like, not necessarily what it contained, right?

JD:  No, not at all what it contains.  The actual -- what it contains is amazing.  And for such an amazing collection or collections that it has, 49:00whether or not it's the originals or whether or not it's just on microfilm -- but still, the fact that it's all in one place and you don't have to go to -- I mean, it's still important to go to these other places to -- still, because they don't have everything, but they have so much there, and it's such a rich collection that they have there -- yeah, it's in -- or at least when I was there.  Maybe it's changed now, but it's in this tiny little portable type of thing that's really hard to get to and isn't -- doesn't have a -- I mean, it has a sign, but it -- the sign, it isn't great.  And just when you think you might be there, you're not there yet and you have another ten minutes to walk before you get there.  It's just not very prominent, as opposed to other collections, I feel like.

JP:  Among other things, you study the Yiddishist intelligentsia in interwar Europe and the attempt to create a Yiddishist identity among youth. 

JD:  Um-hm.

JP:  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I mean, that --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- that as an aspect of your work.  And I'm curious how, if at all -- do 50:00you think that that Yiddishist identity differs from those engaged with Yiddish today who might take on a Yiddishist identity?

JD:  Well, I mean, I think one has to define identity and what it means to take on a Yiddishist identity, I think.  But it -- there are similarities, but I think very much it also differs.  I mean, that particular identity was more -- identity was more about trying to say that -- I mean, it was -- I think the fact that it was before the State of Israel and that it came about in parallel to Zionism, for example.  And I think that -- and that's no -- that is not a mistake.  But, I mean, it makes sense that these two movements came about at the same time.  And that one was really -- much about saying, We are Jews, we 51:00live in Poland, we are Polish Jews and this is -- but we're -- this is -- but we speak Yiddish.  And it -- but it was also -- I mean, there were other national minorities in the region that were very similar, and there are a lot of parallels between the Yiddishist movement in Poland and also in Eastern Europe, 'cause it wasn't just Poland, obviously, and the Belarussian population, the Lithuanian population, the Ukrainian population.  And yes, they had territory, but it was more -- the national minorities in Eastern Europe were very much linguistic-based, as well.  And I think today, it's more -- I think today's -- I mean, it would really depend on the person, right, and I don't study contemporary Jewry.  But I think most of the people today engaged in what they might be calling Yiddishism are more -- I mean, there are -- there are 52:00similarities, as well as differences.  I guess it's more of an international movement now, one could say, even though I've heard the argument made for the interwar period, although I would argue that it's less international.  But -- just my own personal argument, I guess.  I feel like today's people are trying to make more of a statement, whereas there was a lot -- I don't know.  I kind of want to say there was a lot more at stake at the time, and maybe that's just because that's what I spend so much time studying.  But, yeah, and I think today, too, it's about trying to connect with one's family, maybe one's grandparents, one's past in a way that's not Hebrew and not Zionism, if that makes sense.  (laughs)

JP:  You also focus upon Yiddish socio-historical linguistics.  So, I'm 53:00curious about your personal relationship to standardized Yiddish, what dialect you speak, and how do you feel about standardized Yiddish?

JD:  Well, I mean, any -- well, most languages have a standard, right?  And, I mean, I speak, I guess, klal-shprakh [standard Yiddish], because that's what's taught in all the universities.  And I didn't grow up speaking Yiddish.  My grandparents spoke it, but they -- my mother did not speak it and I didn't grow up speaking it.  So, I mean, it's -- I think it's a necessity to have today, at least, 'cause you can't teach a language if it's not standardized.  But, at the same time, I -- I don't want to get into all the politics and history of it.  (laughs) Sorry, what was the question again?

JP:  Well, just what is your --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- personal relationship to standardized Yiddish?

JD:  I mean, I don't -- for me, it's just that it ma-- I think it just -- it 54:00makes a lot of sense of why that is the one being taught today, and it's the one that was -- that's basically the one that's always been taught in universities.  Or I shouldn't say always, but just the history of it.  It was the one that was taught at Columbia, it's the one that's -- that the college Yiddish textbook is based upon.  So, it makes the -- historically, it makes sense, I guess, that that is the one that is taught.  I know it's controversial among some circles, but -- yeah, I just -- it's the one that I learned, and so that's the one that I speak and -- (laughs)

JP:  That it's a necessary part of sort of --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- post-community natural transmission.

JD:  Yeah, especially in this context.  I mean, you don't have -- I mean, yes, there are native speakers of it, but that brings its own -- in Hasidic communities or Haredi communities.  I shouldn't say Hasidic.  And that brings 55:00its own challenges, too.  And I know that, without being an expert by any means on the subject matter, I know that a lot of them, too, are looking now to textbooks and needing some standardization.  And there has to be some standard in order to teach a language.  But, I mean, even by the late 1930s, there was still just -- going back to the schools and the curriculum, I mean, they were trying to teach it in schools.  And even by the late 1930s, there are questions among TSYSHO and TSBK teachers and various pedagogues who questioned whether what we call standard Yiddish today should really be the standard, obviously.  And these debates existed back then, and they -- I think they exist now for other reasons.  But for me, it's more just a necessity of something -- I had to learn something, and that's what's available to be learned.

JP:  How do you use Yiddish in your daily life today, if at all?

JD:  I don't, as much as I used to try to, I guess.  It was -- when I was doing research and living in Jerusalem, I had a lot of friends there with whom -- I would speak Yiddish to, and -- but over the past couple years, as I've been back in Toronto, I really -- there isn't the community -- again, this goes back to your question about the differences between the different communities.  And I find there isn't a very large community to be speaking with on a daily basis.  It's just not going to happen.  Well, I shouldn't say it's not going to happen, but [BREAK IN RECORDING] there's also -- I think it's Jeffrey Shandler -- talks about Yiddish as being a performance.  And, I mean, his book has been out for -- "Adventures in Yiddishland," that's the book, right?  And it -- yeah, it really -- I find even at this conference, [BREAK IN RECORDING] 57:00people will come up to each other, greet each other in Yiddish, and start a conversation in Yiddish, and then they switch into English.  So, it really is more -- obviously, it takes more -- I mean, it's a conscious effort, obviously, to be speaking it to one another.  But yeah, I find it is more of a performance, almost, of -- like, people are trying to show that they speak it, and then they'll switch into English, because it's easier, I guess.  But unfortunately, no, in my daily life, I don't use it, other than for reading and research purposes.

JP:  Are there certain ways in which you keep up your Yiddish, if at all?

JD:  I mean, I do.  If I see a friend who I took Yiddish with years ago, I usually will try to speak in Yiddish with that person.  But again, then we usually end up switching back into English.  But mostly just reading in 58:00Yiddish.  I mean, right now, because I have been just working on my dissertation, reading documents in Yiddish -- but that's -- I used to read the -- "Der forverts," but -- (laughs)

JP:  I know you've also, as a grad student, taught some Jewish studies courses, and to turn now a bit to talking about your teaching, what are some of the challenges or pressures or delights of teaching Jewish studies at the university level?

JD:  I mean, for me, because I taught it at York, there is -- most of the students had a Jewish studies background originally.  So, there were a lot of concepts that -- not everyone, but the majority did.  And so, there were a lot of concepts they already knew.  Most of them already knew Hebrew.  It -- I mean, it was a lot of fun.  I really -- I do enjoy teaching it at the 59:00university level.  I had some very eager students who are very keen to learn about -- I mean, some of them are taking it because they thought that they had learned it all in high school and they were going to just breeze through the course.  And then, I was always delighted when it turned out that they learned something new, so -- (laughs) because, I mean, really, that's how I got into all this, where I realized, oh, there was so much more to know.  So, I'm always delighted when I can pass that on to the next generation.  (laughs)

JP:  Can you remember -- specifically memorable class or teaching moment?

JD:  God.  (laughs) Not in particular.  There isn't anything specifically that comes to mind.  But I do remember one student who was particularly -- it was challenging to be teaching him, because he felt like he knew -- he had 60:00learned it all in high school, and there was a moment where he was reading something and said, "Oh, I didn't know this," or -- but I don't really remember the details --

JP:  Sort of having --

JD:  -- about it.

JP:  -- his own a-ha moment that he didn't come in with the full complement of --

JD:  Yeah, yeah.

JP:  -- Jewish historical knowledge.

JD:  Yeah, exactly, so -- and also personally knowing what he had probably learned in high school and what was probably missing.

JP:  What is it like teaching to different student populations?

JD:  I mean, I've only actually taught at York, so -- you mean, students of different backgrounds?

JP:  Yeah.

JD:  So, I mean, it's always -- it's -- I think the majority of my students who I've had have had a pretty significant background in Jewish studies.  So, I would imagine that teaching a course where you don't have those types of 61:00students, it would be quite different.  I don't know, I guess I don't really have -- (laughs)

JP:  Yeah.  Have you noted any trends or changes among your students in the times that you've been involved with Jewish studies or Yiddish academically?

JD:  I mean, I could say something, it's just not nice.  (laughs)

JP:  Okay.

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  If you're comfortable with it, you're --

JD:  It's --

JP:  -- welcome to phrase it in a way that feels comfortable, but --

JD:  Yeah, I mean -- yeah, no, sorry.

JP:  To turn now a bit more back to Yiddish, what do you think is the role Yiddish -- what is the role academics play or don't play in the transmission of culture?

JD:  I mean, as an academic myself, I think they play a huge role.  I think 62:00specifically, in terms of Yiddish, you're not gonna have -- there's so much -- I guess, post-vernacular culture now, to use the trendy term.  I mean, there is -- I had a moment, actually, a few years ago at the Ashkenaz Festival in Toronto, and -- where there was a round table discussion, I remember, about talking about -- I think it was the future of Yiddish or the state of -- I can't remember.  But it had to do with Yiddish, and that -- it's changed since then, but I remember that particular year at the festival, there was no Yiddish whatsoever, and sort of -- everyone came to this realization that without -- you can have all these festivals and they're fantastic, and they're obviously important.  But you're not going to -- it's not gonna continue, or it's really hard for it to continue without the language itself.  And I think academics play a role in transmitting the language, but also -- and just because I think 63:00that you can't know the culture and the history without the language, just like -- and I really think you can't know the language without the culture and the history.  So, if that is to continue, you do need people to be writing books and studying the history and the language and the culture, and teaching that to undergrads or graduate students, or -- who have -- whomever is willing to learn, I guess.  (laughs)

JP:  To sort of rephrase a question I asked earlier, have you noted any trends or changes -- not just among students, but maybe among colleagues or the field of Yiddish or just even more broadly in the time you've been involved with Yiddish academically?

JD:  I mean, I haven't been involved that long, I guess.  No.  (laughs) I 64:00don't really have a good answer for you for that question, I'm sorry.

JP:  It's okay.

JD:  I haven't really -- yeah, I think that's a question that's better for a more established academic, because I really -- yeah, no.

JP:  Okay.

JD:  Sorry.

JP:  Yeah, no, I know a decade's not a long time.  But then, sometimes things can change --

JD:  Yeah, oh --

JP:  -- in that span of time.

JD:  -- yeah, yeah, yeah.  Yeah.  No, I mean, I've just -- I guess I've been very involved with my own work, so --

JP:  From your perspective, what is the place of Yiddish within the academy?

JD:  Within the academy?  You mean the language or the --

JP:  Either.

JD:  Any -- either?  What is either?  No.  (laughs)

JP:  Language or culture.

JD:  No, I got -- yeah, sorry.  Yeah, no, I think it's very important, like I said before, about -- just the connection between the language and the culture 65:00and the history.  And again, you can't understand the history and the culture without having the language.  And I think it is the place of the academy to be able to teach both the language and the culture, essentially.

JP:  And I'm wondering what you think is the place of Yiddish, or maybe even should be the place of Yiddish within the broader culture?

JD:  What do you mean by the broader culture?  Jewish culture in general, or just, like, Ashkenazic Jewish culture, or -- I mean, I think it's -- I mean, you wouldn't talk about French culture without French, right?  You wouldn't talk about, I don't know, Swedish culture without Swedish.  (laughs) So, no, I think it plays a very prominent role and it should play a very prominent role in the culture.  I mean, culture is made up of various different aspects, but the language itself is so tied to the culture and the culture itself is also tied to the language.  You can't understand Sholem Aleichem without understanding 66:00Jewish history and that culture, and Ashkenazic Jewish culture, and the culture that he was writing and -- just like any writer.  If you want to understand the literature, you can't understand it without understanding the language and the time period and -- yeah, I don't know.  (laughs)

JP:  Yeah, and again, that connection between sort of the historical documents --

JD:  Yeah.

JP:  -- that you're talking about and the literature and how you need sort of both pieces to understand the full picture.

JD:  Absolutely, yeah.

JP:  Do you think there's a Yiddish revival?

JD:  I think for something to be revived it has to first die, doesn't it?  No?  I -- that's -- I mean, I think there's definitely -- people have been talking about the Yiddish renaissance and the Yiddish revival for years upon years, right?  I don't know if I would necessarily call it a revival, and I especially wouldn't call it a revival when we're talking about these cultural 67:00festivals, which is what I'm assuming you're talking -- or referring to here, where you don't have the language.  So, I don't know if it's a revival.  It's definitely an interest, and it's a culture that's -- it's something.  I don't know if it's a revival, necessarily.  I don't know.  You can get into a whole topic about Jewish tourism with this, and -- (laughs)

JP:  Please.

JD:  Oh, I -- I was being facetious, but -- yeah, no.  I guess one could call it a revival, but I wouldn't, actually.

JP:  Because it's never really fully died, and therefore --

JD:  Well, it's -- I don't know, I mean, I guess -- I mean, these Yiddish festivals or klezmer festivals or Jewish festivals -- I mean, they're fantastic and you can tour all around Europe to go, every summer, and there are people who do, and I've met them before, and that's their family vacation, and I think that's wonderful.  But I don't know, do I really need to go to Krakow to go 68:00hear some klezmer music?  And what does that really mean?  Why are they -- I don't -- I mean, it's a great festival.  I do -- I'm not saying that it's not.  But, I mean, with a lot of these festivals, it's the music, which is definitely part of the culture, but -- and when you are going to places like Krakow, it's -- you're definitely -- look at the history, too.  But it's -- a lot of these places are missing the language aspect, and I'm gonna keep going back to that, because I think it is so intertwined.

JP:  How could they better integrate the language aspect?  What does that mean?

JD:  I mean, I think the Ashkenaz Festival has done better job -- a better job of that in recent years by holding lectures, for example, in Yiddish.  But, again, it's hard without being too kitschy, I guess.  (laughs)

JP:  What do you see as the future of Yiddish?

JD:  I mean, the future of the language itself and -- I mean, it's the Hasidic community and the Haredi community that will keep speaking -- they're the majority of those who will be speaking it to their children, and that's really -- I guess that's where the future of the language is, but --

JP:  I'm curious if -- sorry, this can be off-record, but (laughter) if you do have a family or want to have a family, if speaking Yiddish within your family is an important priority to you?

JD:  I think I -- yes, if I ever have children, I would probably speak Yiddish to them.  And if my partner wanted to join in, then (laughs) that's his decision, but -- (laughs) no, I think, for me, at least, just given my work and the fact that it is -- for me, it actu-- it is important to pass on to -- it 70:00would be important for me to pass on to my children, if I ever have children.  Yeah.

JP:  Yeah.  Because?

JD:  Because I think that it's important for children to learn other languages, just -- but also, it is -- it's a language that's not easily -- I mean, it is easily learned if you want to go learn it, but it's not -- it's part of my history, it's part of my culture, and it's part of the history and culture that I would want my children to grow up in, and their heritage, and so it's part of who I am.

JP:  We're nearing the end of our time, but I'd like to ask if there are any other topics you would like to touch upon --

JD:  I don't think so.

JP:  -- or stories you'd like to share?

JD:  I can't think of any.  My stomach's rumbling.  (laughs) I'm sorry.

JP:  It's lunchtime.

JD:  Into the microphone.

JP:  (UNCLEAR)

JD:  I hope not.  (laughs) Sorry.

JP:  Nisht keyn problem [It's not a problem], okay.  (laughter) What advice do 71:00you have to students of Yiddish?

JD:  Of Yiddish?  To seek out other speakers, to seek out -- to first of all seek out classes, 'cause it's not -- they're there, but also seek out older speakers, because that's a resource that won't be there for much longer.  And just to -- if they want to understand the culture and the history, then they have to know the language.  And I really think if they want to understand the language, they have to know the history and the culture.  And so, I guess my advice is just to seek out people who do speak it and gain as much knowledge from them as they can or as they're willing.  My advice to the next generation.

JP:  Who are following in the footsteps of you and other scholars and graduate students, and you've been where these students --

JD:  Right, yeah.

JP:  -- might be, so -- I want to thank you personally for sharing your stories and reflections with me today.  I also want to thank you on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center for participating in the Wexler Oral History Project.

JD:  Thank you, you're welcome.  (laughter)

JP:  A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].

JD:  Nishto farvos [You're welcome].  (laughs)

JP:  Lomir esn [Let's eat].  (laughter)

[END OF INTERVIEW]