KATKA RESZKE ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA:  This is Agnieszka Ilwicka, and today is December 7th, 2013.  I'm here at the White Stork Synagogue in Wrocław, in Poland, with Katka Reszke, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center Wexler Oral History Project.  Katazena Reszke, do I have your permission to record this interview?

KATKA RESZKE:  Except calling me Katazena.

AI:  Absolutely.  (laughs)

KR:  (laughs) Yeah.  It's Katka Reszke.  And you have my permission.

AI:  Thank you, Katka.  I would like to ask you, could you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?  But this is not the Jewish 1:00question yet, okay?  Just tell me about your family background -- who these people were, what you know about jobs, people.

KR:  I was born in Wrocław -- so you know that if you were born in Wrocław, your family is likely to be from somewhere else -- and I was born in 1978.  And my parents were born in 1948.  And my mom is from Kluczbork, which is a hundred kilometers from here.  And my father is from Mińsk Mazowiecki, which is much less than a hundred kilometers from Warsaw -- east of Warsaw.  Their families came from completely different places again.  My grandmother on my mom's side grew up in Chernivitsi, and that's where she was during the war, and they moved back to Poland after the war.  Chernivitsi was then Romania.  It is now the 2:00Ukraine.  Now, my great-grandmother on my mom's side was born in what was then Hungary -- it is now Ukraine.  It's a place called Ushok.  And my great-great-grandmother on my mom's side was born in Stryi -- again, now Ukraine, then Poland.  I have a little less knowledge about the men on my mom's side, so I'm not gonna tell you much about that.  But then on my father's side, his mother -- I don't know, spent most of her life in Mińsk Mazowiecki, but I can't tell you if that's where she was born.  Actually, I can tell you, because it's in -- but I for some reason forget where she was born.  Anyway.

AI:  And what was the profession of your grandparents, and now what your parents are doing?

KR:  My grandfather on my mom's side was a miner, and he worked in France most of his life.  So when he came to Poland, he was a big shot.  (laughs) When he came back to Poland.  My grandma worked in a factory -- I think she was a bureaucrat.  And on my father's side, my grandmother spoke very good German -- she was a teacher of German.  And my grandfather on my father's side was a composer, and director of the Wrocław Philharmonic for a number of years, and 4:00the head of the music department -- music academy in Wrocław.  All my father's side was very musical.  And all I inherited of that is good hearing -- I have possibly absolute hearing, but no ability to sing or play.  But I still appreciate it very much.  Hopefully, my children will pick up the talent.  (laughs) It must have skipped a generation.  My mom was educated as a nurse, but she hasn't worked as a nurse for many years.  She works with my father, who's an engineer -- he has a PhD in electronics, and he runs a private business in high tech.  And they work together in Wrocław.

AI:  All right.  Thank you for that.  Do you have any famous or infamous stories related to your parents and grandparents?

KR:  I guess the famous story -- my favorite family story, that I spent many years trying to interpret and then many years, I guess, trying to explain to people what it meant to me -- was my mom's memory of her own grandmother and her grandfather -- so, my great-grandfather -- who I never met, but I had met my great-grandmother.  And so he used to pull odd jokes on his wife.  And she would open the closet door and she would find him wearing a big cloth over his head and some sort of box on his forehead, and then she would open the door and he'd say, "Sholem-aleykhem, sholem-aleykhem [Hello, hello]," which would drive her absolutely mad.  And you know, I always interpret this to mean that she was hiding a secret, and he was making jokes at her because he knew she was Jewish 6:00and he knew that she was absolutely terrified of anybody knowing about this secret.  And then it only took some twenty years of my life to discover that I was right -- that that's what it meant.

AI:  Before we will come to the question about your own identity and your own origin and the definition of yourself, I would like to ask you one question about Wrocław, in which you grew up.  Because you were born in a very interesting time for Wrocław -- a time of transformation and many changes -- and the time of your youth was in the time of also the Solidarity movement and many important political events of Poland.  What is your memory about this city?

KR:  Look, my memory of Poland in communist times is my memory of elementary 7:00school -- my years in elementary school -- and the fact that many times I would come back from school and get a completely different lesson from my parents about what I would tell them that I had just learned.  And they would turn things around completely, because it was a Communist school, and my parents were anti-Communist, to say the least.  So I was always raised knowing that we were living in a regime that was about to end.  I was too young to, myself, ever have been involved in the fight, and I think it's an interesting phenomenon in my generation -- in really people exactly near my age -- I'm thirty-five today -- that we were too young to be part of this, and then came of age in a very new Poland, which was still in the process of discovering what it would become.  8:00And I think that possibly some -- and some say that searching for alternative identities and searching for other roots other than, you know, Polish Catholic in your family, may have been part of that openness that came with the fall of the regime and just the idea that it now became possible to be something other than Polish Catholic.  Wrocław itself -- Wrocław is a wonderful city, and I love coming back here.  I'm a big local patriot -- not a big Polish patriot, but I'm a Wrocław patriot.  (laughs) I enjoy that.  And I think it's one of the fastest-developing cities in Poland.

AI:  All right.  And kind of follow up to the family story, but not quite yet, what was your first meeting with the Jewish community of Wrocław?  It was a part of your normal picture of the landscape of the place where you grew up?

KR:  It really wasn't.  Coming to the Jewish community -- any Jewish community in Poland -- in the mid-nineties for the first time was not for the faint of heart.  They were not the most welcoming places on the planet.  And I remember the first time I came to the Wrocław community, it was natural for everybody who would see you to question who you were -- to be surprised that you showed up.  You know, where would you suddenly come from?  Why -- what do you want?  And so, it's not common that you find yourself in a place where everybody wants 10:00to know who you are, why you're here, and what you want -- at a moment where you're not sure who you are or what you want.  So that was my experience.  But I guess that you could say that I was very brave, because I did come back again and again and again, until I felt comfortable in the community.  And I did.  And I was the first one in my family to visit this particular Jewish community -- and the only one at the time.  So I had no backup.  But I quite quickly managed to find backup here that already existed here.  I found young people who were just as I was, and who at that point, I guess, knew that they had a Jewish grandparent or parent.  And I thought I did -- I didn't know I did, at the time.  But yet, it took some time for me to feel accepted, and then I 11:00did.  And that was a very fundamental thing in my life that I did, because if I had been rejected here years ago, I don't know where I would be today.

AI:  Do you remember your first day when you came to the Jewish community?

KR:  I can't say that I remember the first day, but I remember a few first people that I met here.  One of the first people that I met was Jurek Kichler, and it was pleasant, but again, it wasn't very easy.  But he was probably the first person that was open to hearing why I wanted to be here.  And I met Michał Honiksfeld, who's no longer alive, but he was around then.  And then I met three young people, and they were Karolina Szykierska, Michał Robak, and Ewa Harenza.  And those are the three young people that sort of explained to me what was going on here, 'cause they had already been here for a few years.  12:00Some of them also sort of showed up against or without other family members' involvement.  So I realized that I wasn't much stranger than anybody else, and this was a good feeling.

AI:  Let's come back to your home place and your grandma's story with the "sholem-aleykhem" great-grandfather.  What will you say about your home?  Did you grow up in a religious home, and what religion?

KR:  Oh, I grew up in a Catholic Polish home.  [BREAK IN RECORDING] I'd say -- I think we went to church most Sundays.  I personally remember hating going to church very much as a child.  And I was a good kid.  And for a young kid in 13:00Poland to feel this way -- that you hate going to church -- I thought there was something wrong with me.  I couldn't understand why I hated going to church so much, but I did.  I would try and wake up ill on Sundays so I that I wouldn't have to go.  I never felt that I was forced to go, but it was just something that you did.  So I felt that it would be wrong to tell anybody that I hated going to church, so I didn't.  I think my father was much more religious than my mom.  I think my mom, over the years, I'd say probably left Catholicism almost altogether.  I'm not sure she would agree with what I say, but that's my perception of her.  And my dad is still a very liberal -- upset with most of what you could say about the Church as an establishment in Poland, but still a 14:00Catholic nevertheless.  So that was the kind of home that I grew up in.  One of the stranger things about my grandmother's home -- which was my second home -- we visited grandma a lot -- was that I felt that it was a very philo-Semitic place.  And it took years for me to understand that this wasn't common in Poland -- to always hear only good things about Jews.  And that's how I grew up.  I was never raised with -- and many people in Poland that they've heard all kinds of stereotypes about Jews -- I don't recall ever hearing that Jews were bad in any way.  I always heard quite the opposite -- on both sides of the family.  And so at some point, this also became suspicious to me.  And that was part of my thinking that we must be Jewish.

AI:  How about the friends of the family?  During some events, you meet other people, and were you talking with them about the Jewish topic?  Sometimes people are bringing this up as jokes or something.

KR:  I really don't recall my parents talking about Jews with other people in my presence.  I can't tell you.  All I know is that my grandmother always stressed the fact that she grew up surrounded by Jews in Chernivitsi, and all her best friends were Jewish.  And I heard the same from my grandma on my dad's side.  And all the musicians in the family -- the Jewish musicians that they were friends with.  Because there is a Jewish musician stereotype -- but a good one.  (laughs)

AI:  Right, the klezmer one.

KR:  Yeah.

AI:  Okay.  My question is about your Jewish identity.  Let's talk about 16:00that.  You often say during the meetings which promotes your book, "Return of the Jew," that one day you just woke up and you established yourself as a Jew.  How --

KR:  Well, I didn't establish myself as a Jew right away, but I do recall one day waking up and deciding that I must be Jewish.  Because it was an absolutely unshakeable hunch.  And it took many, many years to understand what it was.  And actually, it will probably take many more years to understand what it was, because I still don't understand it -- I don't understand how you can have a hunch that you're Jewish.  The good news is that my hunch turned out to be real 17:00-- supported by facts.  Because if it hadn't, I guess you'd say I was crazy.  But yeah, it's very strange.  I must have been about fifteen or sixteen when I suddenly thought, I'm Jewish.  And it was a hunch -- it was nothing else.  There was nothing else that I could think of that made any sense that was logical, that was rational enough, that was unquestionable, that was factual, that would indicate that me or anybody in the family was Jewish.  And again, like I said, my family was sympathetic to Jews in every way possible, so my asking whether we had Jewish roots was never met with, Oh God, no!  It was met 18:00with, I mean, no, we don't -- why?  (laughs) So it wasn't easy to proceed from that hunch, because, you know, it just -- I guess I couldn't find anything to support my hunch with for a good number of years.  And so I came here to the community.  And I guess the first time that I felt that, Okay, let's see what will happen with this, was when I realized that the one ontological difference between me and other young people at the time here was that they knew.  And I felt that I knew.  So I thought, You know what, we're not that different.  I can do this.  And so I sort of by osmosis became a member of this community, and then only became officially a member of this community after I converted -- 19:00which was a difficult decision to make, because I was not convinced that I could be a religious person.  And then I thought, You know what, I am not going to be a religious person, but I can be an observant person.  And I was.  For eight years.  And it was my own private yeshiva.  Throw yourself in the deep waters -- that's the fastest and most effective way to learn -- something that I wasn't taught growing up.

AI:  When you say "deep water," that means that -- did you come in to mikvah [pool for ritual immersion]?

KR:  Oh.  Well, yes.  But that's not why I said "deep waters."  I said, throwing myself in deep waters of observance.

AI:  Yeah.  Absolutely.  But, I mean, the conversion --

KR:  Oh, yeah.  It was a full-on conversion.

AI:  Tell me step-by-step about the process.

KR:  (whispers) I really don't want to tell you.  But I can, I guess.  But why?

AI:  Because I'm curious.  Because something what really occurs me -- how the conversion in Poland in the nineties -- because it was in the nineties, right?

KR:  Yeah.  Every conversion's different in Poland, because it really depends on the rabbi.  So this is a Conservative rabbi, so it was a Conservative conversion -- so it's technically considered easier than an Orthodox conversion.  But practically, it wasn't much different.  I guess maybe the preparation period is a little shorter than it perhaps would have been in an Orthodox conversion, and maybe the exam was a little more lenient, but I can't tell you -- I don't think that's necessarily true.  I think that depends, really, on the beit din [Hebrew: Jewish court of law].  But it had everything that it involved.  The men that needed to be circumcised were circumcised.  And then everybody had a beit din exam.  And then we all went in a mikvah -- immersed ourselves in mikvah.  And we had to go to Kraków to use a mikvah.  21:00And that's where we went.  And there were, I think, probably about twenty of us -- which was a large group.  And I think most of the people in the group had Jewish roots, but weren't halachically Jewish, so they were doing this to, I guess, improve their status in the Jewish community, and to -- you know, just to -- maybe some of them, to feel better.  I was certainly doing it to feel better, I guess.  I would never think -- I'd probably never come up with the idea to convert if it wasn't available right there, and if it wasn't for the fact that all my friends -- almost all of my friends here decided to do it -- because they also needed it, because they weren't halachically Jewish.  And I was, but I didn't know it.  And so I went through the whole conversion process, only to find out much later that I was already halachically Jewish and didn't 22:00need a conversion process.  But it was an interesting experience.

AI:  Did conversion change your life in some way?

KR:  I really don't think it did, because I became observant before I converted.  And so it really was -- like I tend to say, it was like a stamp -- sort of a certification, a stamp of authenticity, if you like -- but something that I was always a little ironic about, because I think it is a little ironic that -- you know, going through all this, immersing yourself in the mikvah changes who you really are -- it's -- I mean -- (laughs) -- I will always take 23:00it with a pinch of salt.

AI:  So now I really have to ask you the question, how did you find out that you're a halachic Jew?

KR:  So between the time the hunch appeared in me, twenty years had passed between that moment and the moment where I knew that I was Jewish -- when I actually had finally discovered that I was definitely Jewish on my mom's side and quite a big part Jewish on my father's side.  It turned out that my mom was almost forced to take a vow before my great-grandmother -- her grandmother -- that she wouldn't tell anybody that we were Jewish.  And great-grandma had told 24:00her the night before she passed that she didn't want anybody to know, and she specifically didn't want her daughter to know -- so my grandmother -- which was unusual, we thought.  And my mom tried to go and convince great-grandma not to make her take this vow, because she didn't think it made any sense in the '90s.  And soon after -- I already had started the family investigation about Jewish roots because I felt this way.  And nobody else in the family would feel upset to find out that they were Jewish, because we were all sympathetic.  My mom, when she went to the hospital to convince her grandmother not to keep this a secret, came ten minutes late.  And that was twenty years ago.  And so 25:00everything that I had guessed for those twenty years, I guessed right on the money.  But if you ask me how that happened, I can't tell you.

AI:  Okay.  But one day, you found out the story and how it was.

KR:  That's how I found out -- my mom told me.

AI:  And when?

KR:  My mom told me last summer.  She told me in June.  She told me, "I have to tell you something.  When your great-grandmother was dying, she told me that we were Jewish.  She made me swear that I wouldn't tell anybody until my mother wasn't alive" -- so, my grandmother.  And so a few months after grandma passed, 26:00my mom decided that it was time to tell me -- only this had come after my having converted to Judaism, moved to Israel, lived in Israel, made aliyah, did a PhD in Jewish education, moved to New York, started working on Jewish documentary films, wrote a book on Jewish identity -- third-generation Jewish identity in Poland.  After all of this -- a few days before I launched my book in Poland, my mother broke the news.  So you could say I became Jewish way before I knew I was.  How crazy is that?

AI:  Indeed.  Let's talk about your ways of being Jewish.  After your 27:00conversion, that was the time when you left to Israel, right?

KR:  Yeah.

AI:  And how the whole process looked like, and why did you take that decision?  Because you easily could stay in Poland.

KR:  Yeah.  I never planned to emigrate to Israel.  I was set on building the Jewish community in Poland, I had the mission -- I was one of the mission people.  I always told everybody that it's much more important to be Jewish here than anywhere else.  And I wanted to be here, and I wanted to build a community.  But I visited Israel for a summer, and then, just then and there, I got an offer to do my PhD, and I got a scholarship -- which was a rare opportunity, and I wasn't gonna reject that.  So I went to Israel, and I fell 28:00in love with Israel, and I wanted -- I thought, you know, four years later, in Israel, I thought I would stay, and I thought I would live there.  So I made aliyah.  And I guess as soon as I made aliyah, I had a reason to go to Poland for a few months.  And I guess you could say I never came back to live in Israel after that -- just because, you know, a number of things happened.  And then I ended up moving to New York, for love.  So I wasn't -- you could say Israel wasn't exactly my choice, because I had this opportunity to do my PhD there, and then, neither was New York, because you don't choose love.  (laughs) So that's how it happens.  I guess I betrayed Poland for the two different promised lands.  But I always emphasize the fact that I come back to Poland 29:00every year.  And I have -- when I was in Israel, I was here also a few times a year, every year.  And right now, I try to spend at least one-third of the year in Poland.  And yes, I am involved in the Jewish community and, I guess, in Jewish culture in Poland all the time.  So I consider myself a person who contributes to Jewish Poland.  And it's very important to me to be able to do that, even if I have to live somewhere else.

AI:  Absolutely.  Tell me, please, briefly, about your education, but starting not from the primary school but from the high school, when you started to be interested in books and you -- and if you could get to the point where you are now in terms of your education, that would be great.

KR:  I finished high school in Wrocław.  I then went to study Cultural Studies at the Wrocław University -- and this was a five-year MA -- master's degree, which I finished.  In the meantime, during my fourth year, I went to Oxford, to the Oxford Center for Hebrew and Jewish Studies, and got my diploma in Jewish Studies there.  So I studied there for one year.  And then, right after I finished my master's, I went to Israel and did my PhD there for the next four-and-a-half years.  So I have a master's in Cultural Studies, diploma in Jewish Studies, and a doctorate in Jewish education from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.  I think that probably sums up my education.

AI:  Absolutely.  And why did you choose that way?  Because it's strongly 31:00focusing on the Jewish history and culture.  Of course, on the one hand, everybody can say, Right, because you were interested simply in your identity.  But that's not that simple.  So tell me, please, why?

KR:  I mean, for me, because I didn't grow up Jewish, it only made sense -- since I felt Jewish and wanted to be Jewish, you could say -- to also study everything Jewish that I could.  So all my educational choices were based on that.  I wanted to study Cultural Studies because I thought Cultural Studies -- I can make sure that every seminar paper that I would write during the five years there would be on a Jewish topic.  And I think I managed, actually, to do that.  And then, I had an opportunity to do Jewish Studies, which was perfect.  And then I already knew -- I wrote my master's on a Jewish topic, and 32:00I knew I was going to write a doctorate on a Jewish topic.  And it's now many years later, and I still only write on Jewish themes.  So that's just how it is.  I'm very close-minded in terms of Jewish stuff.  (laughs) No, but that's -- you know, I just -- I find that I don't think I'll have enough years in my life to exhaust the vast opportunities to write on things Jewish and make films on things Jewish.  And so I'm still there, and I don't need to look any further.  Of course, I have worked on other topics, but the Jewish theme is definitely predominant in all of my work -- and probably will be.

AI:  Absolutely.  I mean, hopefully -- (laughs) -- hopefully, for the good of 33:00all of us.  In 2001, you started a very interesting project of interviewing young Jewish people who came out with identity of being Jewish, and this book successfully was finished in your book, "Return of the Jew."  Tell me, please, about how the whole project started, and what the project was, that time when you started, to you.

KR:  I started interviewing young Jews in Poland even earlier than 2001.  Because I already started to write my master's, and this was on the young Jews -- well, it was really on the Jewish community Wrocław, but I tried to concentrate on young people.  What I wrote wasn't based on interviews, so it was -- but I already had those interviews that I did, and I found it fascinating.  And I found that we're -- you know, we have many things in 34:00common, and then our stories are still so different and fascinating -- and every story fascinates me.  And so I think at that point, I already knew that I was going to write my doctorate on this.  I was always interested in the way people tell stories, and I was most interested in the way young Poles tell their Jewish stories.  And so that's how the project came about.  And I interviewed people over the course of ten years, almost.  And I had fifty interviews with young Jewish adults in Poland who told me amazing, amazing stories about their discovery of Jewish roots, their first steps to explore those Jewish roots, and their amazing journeys into Jewishness.  And so that's -- those stories are in 35:00the book.

AI:  The stories, I found, are really moving to myself -- some of them are our friends.  But the whole collection is building a big picture of the third generation after the Holocaust in Poland.  And what is this collection to you?  Because you're promoting, also, the third generation during your book promotion.  You're telling about these people -- they are alive, they are here.  And what does this mean to you, as a young Jewish woman from Poland?

KR:  I guess -- especially abroad, outside of Poland, the most important thing about my book and about my work is to let people know that there are Jews in Poland, and that there actually is a generation -- unexpected -- a generation 36:00that began emerging after the fall of Communism, against everybody's wildest expectations and following numerous predictions about the end of Polish Jewry.  So I think third generation is, I guess, symbolic of what's been happening in Poland since the democratic changes.  And I think the fourth generation will be just as fascinating, and hopefully, somebody will be able to tell their stories.  Maybe it'll be me, for all I know.  But -- yeah, I'm lost.  What else did you ask me?

AI:  I asked you (laughs) almost about that.  But I also want to know, what is your feeling about this whole collection?  You started this project with some mission, and originally, it was just PhD, but right now, it became a book -- 37:00which is not, PhD, exactly -- it's different than just PhD  And now you are the face of the third generation.  Will you say it's, like, movement, or --

KR:  I don't know if it's a movement.  I think there's a lot of pressure on the third generation.  Because we are the people that are expected to make sure that this revival isn't fake -- that it's authentic.  We are the people questioned most by everybody -- by Jews abroad, by non-Jews around, by older Jews here.  So we have to respond to all of the questioning that surrounds 38:00us.  And I think that the thousands of answers that we have to give -- the questions that we have to ask ourselves and are asked of us every day make us a very vibrant community in that sense.  I think that as the third generation, the fact that we're often questioned by Jews abroad, by non-Jews here, by older generations of Jews here, and the fact that we have to respond to all of those questions and doubts about us and about Jewish life in Poland and the future of Jewish life in Poland, and the fact that we have to come up every day with thousands of answers and responses to those questions -- I think that makes us a very vital community.  And I think that's where -- our strength lies in the fact that we're not figured.  We're constantly in the process of becoming.

AI:  And how do you feel as a part of this concept of becoming Jew?

KR:  How do I feel?  I feel great.  I feel great to be part of the third generation in Poland.  I also think that -- you know, I often say that the fact that there are live Jews in contemporary Poland remains a matter of faith for many people abroad.  But I think that that's also changing.  And in the States, I give talks, and there are many people who approach me who say that they've heard so much about this and they're fascinated with the topic and they've been to Poland or they want to go -- "When should I go?"  So people are -- I think, you know, American, North American Jews -- most North American Jews trace their roots to Poland, which is fascinating.  And many of them never 40:00thought that they could find a good reason to visit Poland.  Hopefully, this revival of Jewish life and the fact that there are young people who speak English who can show them Jewish life in Poland today -- and also, lots of cultural enterprises which are high quality -- some are less high quality, but some are really good in Poland, and I encourage people to come to Poland at specific times to see what's going on here.  So I think it's very important for North American Jews to actually learn about what's happening in Poland right now.  Because it is relevant to them, because they are Polish Jews -- so many of them.

AI:  Do you feel responsible as a person who says, "Hey, come to Poland," because that's the reason why all supported Polish Jewish community?

KR:  I guess you could say that I feel somewhat responsible for encouraging some people to come to Poland.  Sure.  Is this a scary concept, to be responsible?  A little bit.  But then, most people who have visited Poland from North America or Israel -- who have visited for reasons other than to visit Auschwitz -- come back with an absolutely changed opinion.  That's my experience talking to people.  People who go on the March of the Living or who only go on a so-called Holocaust tour normally do not change their opinion about Poland or whether there was Jewish life in Poland.  And it's not their opinion of Poland that I'm so interested in changing -- it's their opinion of contemporary Jewish Poland, which, I think, it's important to realize that there 42:00is such a thing as a contemporary Jewish Poland.  And I think it should be of interest to people outside of Poland.

AI:  Could you please describe to me the contemporary Jewish Poland, from your experience?

KR:  There's a living Jewish community in almost every large city in Poland right now.  There are numerous Jewish organizations.  Sometimes there are too many Jewish organizations, because they steal each other's Jews -- and there aren't so many to steal, so it's not always great when one city has three Jewish organizations that all want to do Reform Judaism, for example.  But yet, it's fascinating.  It's fascinating to see what sort of things young people in Poland are trying to put through in terms of Jewish life.  There are Jewish 43:00culture festivals in almost every large city in Poland.  There are Jewish Studies or Hebrew Studies or Jewish Bible Studies in almost every significant university in Poland.  So that's also very interesting for people to know.  People have no idea that that's the fact in Poland.  There are some Jewish culture festivals that I think are worth visiting, and there are some that I don't think are worth visiting.  But it's also worth it for people to find out on their own which ones are and which ones aren't.  There are Jewish culture and social events organized on a daily basis in large cities in Poland -- and, you know, I'm talking about Warsaw and Wrocław and Kraków and Łódź.  And 44:00Poland is an important place for Jews all over.  And to find positive reasons to visit Poland, I think, is very important.  And I think it's becoming less and less difficult to find those reasons.

AI:  And what community of the Polish Jews you will find most interesting?

KR:  Oh, I think all communities are interesting.  The Wrocław community, for example, is one community which gathers all sorts of denominations -- I guess you could say it's really inter-denominational, in the sense that people who consider themselves Reform or Conservative are members of this community, which is officially considered a modern Orthodox community.  And that's something that -- again, for some people it can be hard to understand, but if you come here, you will understand what it means.  And in that sense, I think it's a 45:00very open community.  In Warsaw, on the other hand, you have three different Reform communities.  Three! (laughs) You know, why?  It's very interesting to understand why there are three different Reform communities.  And so on.  And the same in Kraków -- in Kraków, I guess you could say that you have two.  And it's also, you know, why they exist, what their issues are.  The fact that we fight, I think, is also -- a lot of it is not a bad thing.  I think it's very creative.  I think the reason we fight is because we all are in the process of becoming and of finding our own ways to be Jewish.  And twenty years ago or twenty-five years ago, I guess you could say there were no ready models of being Jewish in Poland, and we needed to import ideas from abroad.  I think 46:00now, we really are in the process of finding our own local, authentic ways to be Jewish -- without the need to import rabbis, ideas, laws, and so on.

AI:  Many people -- especially scholars -- say that there is a Jewish cultural renaissance in Poland.  What will you say?  What is this -- what is called in academia -- the renaissance of the Jewish culture in Poland?

KR:  When people talk about the renaissance of Jewish culture in Poland, I always say that in my opinion, it is not a renaissance.  I don't think it's a Jewish cultural comeback.  I think what we're dealing with is the construction of an entirely new phenomenon.  I think that there's a contemporary Polish 47:00Jewish culture being constructed in Poland.  And in that sense, it's fascinating, because it's something new -- it's something that we didn't have before.  And some of it is created by both Poles and Jews.  And I think it also took a good twenty years for this cooperation to take shape -- that now, we can say in all certainty, creates something of quality, and something authentic and real, and something that both Jews and non-Jews can appreciate.  And I think that because Jews are now more ready to have an opinion of their own, to create their own models of being Jewish, the Jewish culture that's being created is something unprecedented.

AI:  And I would like to come back for a moment to your personal story.  48:00Because the Jewish culture of Poland is created by people like you, who discovered or are in the process of rediscovering their Jewish roots.  So, who actually was the Jew in your family?

KR:  Right.  So, over the course of twenty years, we discovered that my father's father was Jewish.  He told my dad on his deathbed that he wasn't gonna take the secret to the grave with him.  Before that, we discovered that my father's mother's father was Jewish.  She is not sure whether her mother wasn't Jewish -- there is a possibility also that her mother was Jewish, but that's probably something I'll never be able to prove.  And we discovered that 49:00my great-grandpa [sic] -- who got so mad when her husband made jokes to her with a cloth over his head and the "sholem-aleykhem" in the closet -- was, in fact, hiding a family secret -- and she was Jewish.  Which makes my grandmother Jewish and my mother Jewish and makes myself Jewish.  So that's what we discovered.  Which is somewhat unusual -- that in one family, you discover so many Jewish roots, an all of them hidden.  But I still feel lucky that my great-grandmother didn't die a day earlier, because I would never know what I 50:00know today.  And so the question is, of course, why the hunch?  And how crazy is it to guess that you're Jewish, and then to take so many years to find out that you were right?  But that's what happened in my family.

AI:  And what your mom will define herself today?

KR:  You'd have to ask her, but I think she's become very Jewish over the years.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AI:  I would like to ask you of the place of Yiddish in your life.  When did you start to be interested in Yiddish language?

KR:  I started early on.  When I went to study to Oxford -- at the Oxford Center for Hebrew and Jewish Studies, there was an option to choose Yiddish or Hebrew.  And in my Polish Jewish identity then, I found Yiddish much more 51:00important, and I chose Yiddish.  So I learned Yiddish for a year at Oxford, and I enjoyed it immensely -- especially because I had never learned German before, so I had the better pronunciation, according to my teacher.  And I love Yiddish.  And I have to improve it -- and I'm working on it, it'll happen.  And then I learned Hebrew, because I went to Israel.  But yes, Yiddish is -- I guess -- I remember having a few opportunities to actually speak Yiddish to old-timers in Poland.  And that's incredible.  And it's really sort of your last-minute chance to learn Yiddish to use it that way.  And I think it's very important.  And so I really want to improve it, so that I can chat with the 52:00ones that are leaving us so soon and so quickly, one after another.

AI:  That's true.  Who are your mentors  --

KR:  Oh, actually, there's another Yiddish story.  My favorite memory of my great-grandmother was the fact that she called me "meshugene."  (laughs) So that's how Yiddish came into my life.  First, I was called "meshugene" by my -- I was the only granddaughter she called that -- great-granddaughter.  I was the meshugene one.  (laughs) I was the meshugene one.  Yeah.

AI:  How old were you when your great-grandmother died?

KR:  I was about fifteen, sixteen.

AI:  Do you think that she passed you some -- I would say, some things from the past world, the prewar Poland?

KR:  You mean in a spiritual way or do you mean in --

AI:  Both.  But I mean, some things that were -- come from the Polish Yiddishkayt -- or just the Polishness from the past?

KR:  She didn't talk much about before the war.  She didn't talk much about those days.  The only things that I would hear about was from occupation.  They weren't very happy stories.  I remember that she told me once a story of how she visited a neighbor, and the neighbors were Hasidic.  And she -- no, I'm sorry, that was my grandmother's story -- that was when my grandmother was little.  And her mother sent her to, I think, borrow sugar or something like that from the neighbors.  And when she knocked on the neighbor's door, the lady opened, but she wasn't wearing her wig -- and she was bald.  She was completely 54:00bald.  And it scared the hell out of my grandmother.  So she remembers that from her childhood.  'Cause she didn't realize that she would be bald -- she didn't realize she wore a wig because she was a Hasidic woman -- the neighbor.  And so it scared my grandmother.  I remember that story.

AI:  That's the Jewishness of our part of the world.  Let's come back to the Yiddish for a moment.  So, who are your mentors, if any, in learning Yiddish?

KR:  Well, my teacher when I learned Yiddish was Helen Beer -- so, a very renowned Yiddish scholar and teacher.  And I loved her.  And hopefully, I'll get to see her at some point, because I haven't seen her in a good thirteen years.  I studied some sociology of Yiddish with Dov Ber Kerler -- amazing, 55:00amazing person.  I remember I was having discussions on all sorts of issues of linguistics.  Yeah, I think probably that's about it -- as far as Yiddish people in my life.

AI:  But then when you studied, was there a community of students learning Yiddish when you were in Oxford?

KR:  Well, it was part of the curriculum -- Yiddish was.  Or Hebrew.  It was a choice.  So yeah, I studied with a number of people.  We were probably -- maybe twelve or fifteen in that group -- international group.

AI:  And what was that to you -- to study Yiddish in England and not here even in Poland?

KR:  It was interesting, because at Oxford, the students were international, and they were also multi-religion, so they were not all Jewish.  Actually, I think most of the students during that year were not Jewish.  So it was very interesting that this bunch of non-Jews, if you like, would sit there in an old, four-hundred-years-old manor -- house -- in Yarnton, outside of Oxford, to study Yiddish.  There's something sublime about that.  And I think it's great that people will learn Yiddish.  I think it's great that there's a Yiddish comeback in America and in Israel.  There are so many people who learn Yiddish now, they wouldn't have thought of learning Yiddish, you know, fifteen years ago.  So I think it's great.  I think it's amazing.  And I can see that, you know, it's 57:00this last call for a world that may be lost.  So I very much appreciate it.

AI:  Would you call yourself a Yiddishist?

KR:  I would not call myself a Yiddishist.  I hope, maybe, one day to be able to call myself a Yiddishist -- when I've learned Yiddish properly and use it in my life.  But no, I can't call myself a Yiddishist.  (laughs)

AI:  But is Yiddish important today for you?  I know that you have planned to study Yiddish, but where is the place of Yiddish in your life now?

KR:  Well, I read Yiddish.  I don't read Yiddish much -- I don't make an effort to read in Yiddish, because it's a little hard -- but I think Yiddish is very important.  I think it's great that there are so many opportunities to 58:00study Yiddish in Poland, and I think it's great that there are so many opportunities to study Yiddish in America and in Israel -- and that it's young people who want to learn Yiddish today, because it is the last opportunity for us to be able to speak to the old-timers in their vernacular.  And I think it's incredible.  I think it's very important.

AI:  Do you have any favorite Yiddish phrase, word, or song?

KR:  I'd say "meshugene" is probably my favorite word, because it's the first Yiddish word I learned, and it was used to describe me.  So I enjoy that.  I have some songs, but I wouldn't say that I'm a big fan of those songs.  I enjoyed Itzik Manger in Yiddish when my Yiddish was a little better.  I guess 59:00you could say I use all the American Yiddishisms that there are -- I definitely use them all.  But that's probably as much Yiddish as I use in my life right now.  I have a favorite sentence that I say to old-timers when they ask me if I speak Yiddish.  I say to them, "Ikh hob a sakh gelernt un afile mer fargesn [I have learned a lot and forgotten even more]."  And they very much enjoy that.  And that lets them know that, yes, okay, she speaks a little Yiddish.  (laughs)

AI:  Thank you for that.  We are nearing to the end of our time, but I would like to ask you one more question.  And to you, as a -- Katka -- a PhD person, what does the role of academics play -- or don't -- in the transmission of culture?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

KR:  I think the role of academics is very important in transmitting Jewish 60:00culture.  I think that there are probably many students who will only maybe perhaps think of exploring their Jewish identities or immersing themselves in Jewish culture in a professional way or a scholarly way because they get inspired by their teachers.  So I think it's very important that Jewish culture be taught at universities.  I think it's immensely important in Poland.  And there's a big interest in learning about Jewish culture in Poland and growing opportunities to do so.  And of course, there are opportunities to learn about Jewish culture in America and in Israel.  I think in Israel, people are much less interested in learning about Jewish culture, but that's just because they don't think they have to.  (laughs) But yeah, I think academia in many ways is 61:00part of Jewish culture today.  So I think learning about Jewish culture in academia creates future people who will make Jewish culture.  And so on.  So I think it's all interconnected.

AI: And my last question to you --

KR: That was stupid.

AI:  It's not, no.  My last question to you is -- and now, pay attention --

KR:  Attention?

AI:  -- what advice do you have for future generations?

KR:  Oj, ale gdzie [Oy, but where]?  Tu [Polish: Here]?

AI:  Here.  Yeah, here in Poland, in the White Stork Synagogue.

KR:  I think the biggest challenge for future generations of Jews in Poland 62:00will be to still ask themselves as many questions as we do.  Because I think for as long as we ask ourselves every day what it means to be Jewish -- in what ways do we want to be Jewish -- to explore our Jewish identities -- as long as those are questions and not ready-made models, that's as long as it will be a vital community.  And future generations will be able to find their own answers to these questions.  So I think that's the biggest challenge.  I think there is a fear that because the third generation is, was, and probably will be for just a few more years -- because we're becoming old -- so involved in talking about Jewish identity and discussing Jewish identity, that perhaps our children 63:00will consider themselves ready-made -- they won't need to go through everything that we went through, because they thought, Okay, it's done.  I no longer need to do this.  And so I think that's the biggest fear -- that our children will be ready.  I think the idea of not being figured -- the idea of being in the process of becoming -- is one that can keep a community going.  And that's, I think, the biggest challenge for future generations.

AI:  Thank you very much for this interview, Katka.

KR:  Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]