ESTHER FEDER LESELL ORAL HISTORY

JESSICA PARKER:This is Jessica Parker, and today is Tuesday, August 26th, 2014. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Esther Feder Lessell, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Esther Feder Lessell, do I have your permission to record this interview?

ESTHER FEDER LESSELL:Yes.

JP:Thank you. So, to start, I'd like to ask you if you can tell me briefly what you know about your family background.

EFL:So, I was born 1930, in Poland. Zolochev near Lemberik. Really, the war 1:00started for me in 1932, at a pogrom where my grandfather was killed. A little -- what my mother said was a horrible day -- that those hooligans destroyed so much, a father of eight children, over nothing, just because they were drunk hooligans. And after that started, really, the war for my whole family. To me, the Yiddish is very important as that was the only language I could speak to my grandmother, some of my family already being educated in Poland. So, there was 2:00another language that I picked up fast. And when the war broke out, everything was burning around us. The whole town, everything was burning around us. We were able to go on a train, because that was closer to the border, and that was only place that was open for us, because the Russians still kept opening -- but we really didn't have any papers until we came by Kiev. And so, we were four starting out. They took -- my brother was very young -- in the army. Maybe sixteen he was, maybe less. And my father, they took him in the army. We hadn't 3:00heard or seen him for the longest time. We got a postcard from -- I'll say like the Red Cross, that were taking names. And sometimes, in the middle of the war, my mother got a postcard that he was killed. He was a good horse rider, but they did not train him. So, natural, the other one shot first. And, for the longest time, we didn't know -- we still don't know where his bones are. And to say -- for longest time, we didn't know if my father was alive or not. So, that would be Yosl Balbusch, and he was also wounded. But in Russia, they didn't keep 4:00papers or statistics, I guess you call it. And so, when the Red Cross tried to know, by that time, I was already in a displaced camp in Germany -- that we found out that he's alive and remarried and has a son. So, that would be stepbrother. And my mother also remarried, to Meyer Fezenstein. He was a very nice man and very caring, and they had a pretty -- he was taking care of her, but she wasn't well, already, at that time, when the displaced camp fell apart. 5:00But at that time, Germany kept all names and where and what -- some papers came -- there's a possibility that we can go to Israel. So, that was 1948, I remember. Yeah, '48. I remember Israel star-- independent marching in a -- and holding a banner, Jerusalem, and we were told to take the banner down. It was almost not free for us yet. So, that was sad, but happy at the same time, that Israel's independent. And I met a young man -- so, Hans Feder -- that was very 6:00taken with me. And he asked my mother for my hand -- in other words, to take me -- the first time -- was it before the marriage? That I went to Goslar, I didn't like -- there were too many, just -- we didn't have -- place for us, really. He had a room, and he had some meetings, but everything was not -- to me, I guess I was brought up with Jewish people all my life, really. So, that was a little bit scary for me. After we got married, was a -- better, because I made more Jewish acquaintance. More of his friends become my friends. And he went in a place where he had to fill out papers. So, he was joking around with a secretary, 7:00almost flirting and telling her that he has somebody in mind -- he would like to go to America. So, he put down that he's a carpenter, and I would like to be a nurse. From there came some papers. But my mother was very unhappy, because she was going to Israel, and her only daughter was going to America. So, that was really -- painful separation. And every time we separated in Russia, one of us was sick or, you know, nervous breakdown, close to a nervous breakdown. So, she was really afraid. So, she stayed as long as she could in the displaced camp. I had a wedding there. So, I got more of a family, but his family was also going 8:00to Israel. They would only take younger people and people that had good prospect of jobs in the United States. But it all happened in '48. Was married in August. They left -- probably before the holidays. That would be September, where I went to Goslar, because displaced camp isn't anymore, and they went to Israel with the plan that I will be coming to Israel, too. They started to look into buying things for us. As my husband was so many years in the camp -- that Israel was too much for him. Too many bad memories of just Jews together. So, he did not 9:00want to go. That's where -- started by us. I had unhappy feelings about that, but I had to, like they say, go with your husband. After -- was a bad trip, I think by boat, ship. Bad trip. It wasn't a good one, and was too long. But, of course, I was young and strong. So, we made it, and we had even -- some people already we knew. Not too many, and the big ship -- we knew already some people that I can talk to, but they always separated men and women, which I didn't like. There were some unmarried women and unmarried men. So, they had to kind of 10:00keep separate, everything. And also, any food was really very -- not good. If one throws up (laughs) and has bad taste there, well, the sanitary things were also very poor on that ship. I really looked forwards -- when we finally arrived. I did have family in New York, but we went through a -- organization that paid for the trip and also had a place for us to go. I was taught a little bit -- in Germany, a professor came in and introduced me to the English language. Very little of my husband, because he was already -- yes, some work he 11:00was doing to make a living. And from there, I was not afraid to go even on a train. Somebody wrote out the address, and I would show. That was a big help, kind of, because somebody was supposed to meet us and never did come. So, we went to Newark, that was, and that's how it started for us. Newark was a very -- a lot of jobs there to be -- so, we didn't stay with that family long. My husband found a job right away and said, "I will not accept charity. I will give charity." He was a very honored man. "I will give charity." And, yeah, that's enough -- and the same week, he started a job, I think as a carpenter. Something 12:00in the wood department. He was good at it, and within probably a month, we found a place -- an apartment, probably high steps and all this, but young -- we didn't care. Three years later -- no, I can't walk steps, I'm pregnant. So, my daughter, Rita, was born. So, we had to go down, live in a one-family house that has a -- upstairs. The owner was downstairs, in Newark, I would say, but they -- us were upstairs, and the hospital wasn't too, too, too far, because we didn't 13:00own any transportation then. And two years later, my second child was born. I still wasn't a citizen, but I -- of course, I applied. But then, when it came for the citizenship, a neighbor -- I left the children, and the joke was, "You have more to lose than me, 'cause now I have three citizens." (laughs) Was a joke. And, of course, my husband and I became citizens -- which made us very proud. To vote and to belong was very important to me, to belong to some place. We already were members in the synagogue, paying members. We had a seat. Was important for my husband to have a seat. Of course, Orthodox, then. A seat, and 14:00the rabbi knew the family, which was very important. I tried to invite for a Shabbos meal, and they tried to invite us or else pay in the shul to have a Shabbos meal. And then, seven years later, make my husband very proud to have a son. So, that's the word kaddish, I have a kaddish afterwards, very proud. We moved into a bigger place and a nicer synagogue and school. I remember enrolling -- after public school, enrolling probably both of my daughters in Hebrew school, what I picked up -- they knew some Yiddish, because they heard us speaking in the house or in the shul. But they picked up Hebrew, and eventually 15:00became Hebrew teachers, first just to help and then became at least they had the Hebrew teaching, which, up -- today, they're still teaching some Hebrew, and helped my son with his bar mitzvah lesson, with his -- whatever had to be done for the bar mitzvah, which we were very proud -- but still, we had very little family, which was a pain. Only recently, I spoke to my daughter, and she said, "No, we never went." I said, "No," because I could not leave the children with a babysitter. I did not trust strangers. We had that hang-up of trusting, 'til today, people, because we were so hurt. And even though it's people that we 16:00know, we would be together a lot. But trusting, in my home, leaving my children, was a big hang-up. I would have loved to work part-- you know, full-time. But because of that, we struggled, because I didn't want to leave the children. Even going to a school, I'm the one that would have to walk -- and same thing lunchtime, and back, until Rita was, let's say, eleven years, where I can trust her to walk her brother and sister, where I could take a part-time job. So, that was very important to us. We were always -- 'til today, I'm self-sufficient, which means I have some money in the bank if anything happened. Of course, now 17:00we have insurance. We had always some kind of insurance if one gets sick. And I was lucky -- my life -- that I really wasn't sick, or any major operation -- my life. Birth was pretty easy, but the only thing I never liked is that I was so lonely and so heartbroken because my mother was there and I was here. So, finally, my husband worked in this place, General Aluminum Making. I think he was the only Jewish man there. So, when he told the owner how many years I have not seen the mother and papirene kinder [paper children] -- that means the 18:00children, just in pictures he got to see -- that he, instead of taking a vacation, he wanted that for me. So, from Newark, they took me by helicopter, which I didn't like, to a plane, which I didn't like. But I was brave enough to do it, and my mother was so happy to see me. But she was not in a good -- health-wise. I knew already then that some of her mind was wandering, some of her body, of course, were -- a lot of pain. But, she -- he was very good, and they had good neighbors where he could leave her. He was a -- that was my stepfather. He was a caterer. He had the beautiful halls with -- first for the 19:00soldiers, the food, he was making -- responsible for it. Then, he was for -- and there would be, in Tel Aviv, a big hall where they had weddings, bat mitzvahs, bar mitzvahs. But my mother would not attend any -- she was invited, she was always -- she does not attend because she was sad, kind of. But they had already, that time, a nice place that the doctors could help my mother.

JP:And when was it that you went to visit?

EFL:Probably I -- my daughter, yeah -- I had already all three children, so that would be ten years, in '48, then that'd be '58, probably. Yeah, that was the 20:00first time that I went. Later on, as Rita was sixteen, we let her go to Israel, which made my parents so, so happy to see child, and they went and bought a dress for both of them -- for the holidays, probably, which was -- I think they have, until now, a white dress with gold trims that grandma bought. Then I was able to go a second time, and my husband was with the children, and somebody in the -- yeah, during the day, somebody was there that I knew. We kind of exchange 21:00babysitting. I guess I trusted her a little more, that I was able to go the second time because my mother had surgery on her eyes, although it -- today, they don't keep you in hospital, with cataract -- at that time, they kept her in hospital flat-laying and it was very, very uncomfortable. They also had some kind of icepacks, given her -- maybe she had a temperature, I don't know. But I was there, and only my uncle Dave would relieve me where I would go to sleep or something, a couple of hours. Or the husband, of course. But he kept on working. It was terrible at that time. I know all my life I was afraid to have anything with my eyes, and yet I have both eyes cataract -- and the same day, in and out nowadays. No pain, no -- I don't really need any glasses after that. So, it was 22:00really -- what a difference it made. But I feel bad for my mother that she always had to have, all her life, very, very sad. And just imagine, she had such a big family. If that family would survive, how many happiness there would be now, a family -- yet, they all went dressed in their best clothes, and in di sheytel [in the wig] and went in the camp. I keep telling a story at -- I think I still have, in Poland, family. And this cousin of mine was a beautiful blonde, blue-eyes -- Malke. And she played with the neighbors' children, who are not Jewish. And the neighbor always said that that's his child. So, when -- before 23:00she went to ghetto, she wanted Malke to survive, she gave her to -- I'll call him "pan" -- it means that "mister." She gave him to that pan and said the house, whatever -- they didn't own, but "stay with her here -- a girl should stay with her here." Well, he didn't do it. He was a good man, but he was a drunkard. When he drank, whatever he made himself, he was horrible. They made this little -- I guess the wife didn't want to have Malke there, so they made some kind of almost -- I call it a doghouse where they kept her. And, of course, in Poland, the winters were pretty severe. So, she -- I don't know if at eleven 24:00-- yeah, eleven years old, she was very sick. Finally, the pan took her in his room, in his bed. It didn't take long -- she lived for a long time, that -- probably at twelve, she has the first child. That's why I'm saying I may have family there, and she knew to go to the cemetery where my zeyde [grandfather] was -- had a stone there. And somehow, some American would leave money for her there, under the stone, for the longest time. Of course, later on, somebody got wise to it and they couldn't do it. And she had a very hard life. At least three children. My mother -- and the same -- her father, David Lauber, survived. But 25:00he said, "No, she's -- she is not dead. No, no." I think my mother -- as we went from Russia to Poland, my mother tried to look for her, tried to -- they were afraid, though. They were told they -- all of them, your neighbors, have knives, and for them to throw a knife at you is even -- like you would eat a piece of steak. That's the scare that everybody had up there. She left me, probably in a train, and tried to go and look around, but they were too afraid to go. She didn't go alone. There must have been more people. That's why I'm saying I do have, up there, family. One time was a story that this young man was beaten so badly -- he was a book learner, not a -- pigs--, the others were the -- had pigs 26:00in the house, whatever, take care of pigs and chickens, all that. He did -- he was a book learner, so he was beaten because of that. He wound up in one of the hospitals -- that somebody interview, but he said, "I will not give a name," because not only my mother but all the siblings can be killed. They explained to him what Israel really means. Whether he went up there or not, 'til today, he would be scared to give a name or to know -- to say -- a Jewish mother, even if he knew -- if you -- if he was that learned, he must have been known -- that Malke was Jewish. Of course, they turn it to Mary, not Malke, but -- so, that is 27:00still on my mind at times. But we won't do anything about it. Somebody tried to -- from -- I'll call it the shtetl [small community in Eastern Europe with a Jewish population], from the shtetl committee tried to go up there. It was some kind of fence, was some kind of dogs. And they knew the story, that he will carry knives. Even the boys, the young boys, will carry knives, and your life is -- it's said up there, the dog -- big dogs and all this, or you would risk your life.

JP:And how did your family learn of this story?

EFL:Probably the shteytishe [townspeople] knew it. That was a group from the -- Poland, that she belonged -- and there was another name, which I can't remember 28:00right now. Shteytishe is only the townspeople, but it -- the father, Dave, did not -- he said, "It's impossible. She did not survive. It's impossible." But the story kept on going 'til today. He remarried, and he had -- actually, in Russia, he married, Dave Lauber, this woman Rose. She had two children. I think he even named his first daughter Malke, because he did not believe that Malke survived. And that ends the story. We don't want to -- they never kept any papers. You go to a school, they didn't have papers. That town -- they moved, I think -- yeah, 29:00that -- in the move they kept papers, but not in Zlochev, that little town where I was born. 'Til today, I do not have a birth certificate. The only papers would be from United States. Some in Germany. I shouldn't say just United Sta-- in the displaced camp, they had very -- German people had records on all the people. They had a record where my mother worked. It's like a hospital, and my father was the cook up there. That's the stepfather already -- was the cook up there. The German people of today have those records, but not my birth certificate, not 30:00my mother's birth certificate, not anybody's birth certificate or address.

JP:Yeah, I'd like to go back to your family's lives before the war. What do you know about your grandparents' or your parents' lives?

EFL:So, my grandmother was a midwife. Very good one. And she had a lot of children, I would say eight. The oldest two, when they became age to go in the military, there was an aunt in New York that brought them -- get the papers and brought them over. One had something with a -- eye wrong, and it's possible that he did it on purpose not to go in the Polish army. Quite a few -- not to go in 31:00the Polish army. My life was not good in Poland. My father had some kind of horse, and I remember -- I don't know if you call it a peddler or what you call it, because they were not allowed to own property. To sell was almost like illegal, really. So, that's the only thing that he could -- my grandmother probably rented some kind of orchard, because she was good at that. And the house was not really -- probably not even lights that we have then, because I remember a small stove where some -- a cradle or a -- some kind of bed was there 32:00when I was coughing, especially. So, my grandfather I don't remember at all 'cause I was only two years old when he was killed. It was a terrible life in Poland. It was not, for us, a good life, although my brother had some education. I don't know if it was private or public school. Some education, my brother had. But everything was risky.

JP:Risky how?

EFL:They really didn't want you to mingle. If you went in the school, you were someplace segregated, sitting on the side someplace. It's almost like they wanted them to know that this is a Jew and this is a Polish child. That's where 33:00it was -- scared, because you were not any equal to any of the children. Especially girls were scared. But there already were private teachers if you could afford a -- which you didn't pay in money. You paid in different -- service, maybe different food or whatever. And he was able to have some education. Very little for the women, more --

JP:Did you go to school?

EFL:That would be some kind of Hebrew school, and I know good Yiddish. Hebrew, I know to pray, but I do not know the words 'til today. I can converse slowly, just by words, not sentences, so I must have been in Russia, went to private 34:00school. I don't remember in Poland any schooling. If it was, though, like I said, it was in private homes and private -- almost like forbidden. The teacher -- forbidden to congregate in a synagogue, which up to now I love. That's my social life, a synagogue, really. I am a vice president in the sisterhood, but -- so we accomplished a lot, but not thanks to any of the Polish -- what are they -- would call them? Any committee of Polish -- if we did survive, it's because Jewish -- Jews would take care of their own, and they always had the shteytishe back -- that they had -- they knew how bad we were, and they would 35:00take me, Esther, they would take another girl where at least you had one meal a day. It was very very bad. And Russia was even worse than in Poland, because I remember being swollen -- starvation. And my mother worked. I don't know, the room was always drafty and wet. And I'm always afraid of closets right now. I must have been -- I don't really remember. I must have been locked in the closet when she went to work. That's how afraid they were for girls. If I went outside, I got hit, I remember. Why, when? I wouldn't know. That was in Russia, in --

JP:When were you in Russia?

EFL:Right away, when the war broke out, and I was up there when the war ended. 36:00They send me -- they broke us apart. My mother was sick at that time, and I went to a orphanage, which -- with the idea that they'll send all these men and women in a kibbutz --

JP:From the orphanage.

EFL:Yeah, from the orphanage they would -- they come and take you. At -- but a --

JP:Was it -- Jewish orphanage?

EFL:Yeah, I think it -- yes. The orphanage -- my mother was very upset, though. But that time, she knew already my stepfather, and they send somebody, in that orphanage, with the idea that I'm coming back. And my mother said, "No, I can't live without you." So, she did not let me go back to the orphanage, which was 37:00all right with me, because I was not happy. Anytime I was separate from my mother, I was not happy. I was sick. Both of us were sick. We only counted on each other. That's why I'm saying what a life -- how many people would be if those people would survive, if Hitler didn't start this bren-fayer [blaze], how many people would survive? Just imagine. On my father's side, something I remember of a grandfather very vaguely. And I think he had a brother, at least one. Usually, they had more -- so, you count -- I once made a joke or my mother made a joke, I -- efsher meyer vi a hindert mentshn yetst geveyn -- zenen ale fabrent un ale, nishtu ka bayner [maybe more than a hundred people would exist 38:00now -- they were all burned, and there are no bones]. That was the saddest thing for us to understand, why. My mother could not religion take, because why? So -- a lot of people of that -- yet, there was some people that didn't want to be Jewish because of that. Not us, because she said, "I made a promise. One of us will survive, and that'll be my child." But she survived, too, like I said. She was in Israel, but two of the children, they had their imagination, their focus on the children, up today. I was so happy this month to hold a great-grandchild 39:00in my arms. It's too bad my husband didn't live to see it. They were in ghetto, they gave away -- Hans gave away -- his youths were taken away from him, and he -- although he -- children and grandchildren he saw, but not a great-grandchild, and that was the biggest thing in life, to live kinds kinder [children's children] -- 'til today, when I, in shul say dor to dor [generation to generation], it feels good. It's almost like, look, I'm still here. Brave or not, I'm still here. I have these kind of children that will live on and on. So, that was the biggest accomplishment in my life. Red Cross, in my life -- I 40:00remember every time it was so bad that you thought you won't see tomorrow, from someplace came another blanket or another meal. And meal might have been just corn, and what else? My mother was able to make flour from the corn herself, or a soup which I call the chicken soup. Didn't know any better. The chicken soup, it -- so, I always have a good feeling when somebody says -- I don't even know if you call it the Red Cross or you call it Mogn Dovid, that would be already in 41:00Israel, Mogn Dovid, probably. And I always -- if I get a paper, I will send a donation. My children will give blood, and I always -- because we feel this way. But mostly, also the shteytishe. They knew of -- the teacher would have papers: Esther lives here, Esther's all this, Esther's mother dead -- where they kept some records of that -- they were educated people. My mother was very little educated, although she read some. It was like the letters -- it's almost like Latin, the word "mayn tayere [my dear]," but it wasn't written in Yiddish. It 42:00was almost Latin. And I think some of this -- later on, they learned their life --

JP:What languages did you speak at home?

EFL:Yiddish. Yiddish, with my mother. Only Yiddish. Very little Polish. Maybe when I was outside, I would throw Polish words, but I knew to read already Polish. But it's almost like a pain to talk about it because of what even our neighbors did to us. They could have saved a lot of people, but they were very -- not educated, very -- what I call nasty people. And only because I was Jewish, not because I wasn't a -- equal. And --

JP:Was your family religious?

EFL:In Poland, yes. But after the war, no. They owned a talis, I'm sure, and 43:00kosher home, and -- in Israel. But they were not religious. They admired people that were religious, but they didn't trust them, either. It was something -- "Why do you come to me for charity? What do you do with the charity?" if somebody knocked on the door for charity. Yes, my mother did accept from the shteytishe. Once upon a time, she did accept money from them. But it -- to me, it was like a -- insurance. Something came from Germany or something from Poland -- she did accept. Probably my stepfather, too. And if not -- YIVO, I think it was YIVO -- we wouldn't have the transportation from Russia to Germany.

JP:How did YIVO organize that?

EFL:I think, by that time, our names were already there. So, they knew that those people need to be taken out of Russia as soon as possible, because some will not survive another winter. And they had American money, I guess. I don't really know what group that would be, but that was a big group that knew of us, and probably -- I don't know, a blanket or something. I remember having a name, what that meant, and at that time already, we had somebody that knew of how many children were by Kiev, how many boys, how many girls, how many older people that 45:00needed help. And from then on, was -- life a little bit easier. At least we didn't worry where the next meal would come from.

JP:They brought you to the DP camp in Germany?

EFL:Yes. Yes, they -- in Germany, by -- that would be by Hanover. There would be -- we knew that we're going there, and, well, we wouldn't -- all right, it wasn't a good meal, but might be a cooked meal, because both my parents by then -- she knew Meyer by then, that they can give me food, too. I remember going -- my mother -- oh, yeah, both of them worked in the hospital. I remember going to 46:00the hospital and having a meal there.

JP:The hospital in the DP camp.

EFL:In the DP camp, yes. There were lot of sick people, and it -- not -- some of them -- well, you know, body sick, some of them the mind wasn't working -- and so, there were a lot of sick people. They tried very fast to get them out of the displaced camp. But we already -- life a little bit easier. I was not afraid to go out. I did have some friends, and we almost kept an eye on each other. If Batya isn't here, we'll go -- Batya's house. So, there were let's say four or five girls where we were not scared anymore there, although there was still patrolling with guns and all that. And they really didn't want us going out of 47:00that -- this pla-- but some of the young people did go out, and they'd investigate how far -- took some kind of buses -- how far they can go and how far -- my mother's friend, Chana, had two brothers that were not in the displaced camp. They didn't know that -- each other -- that they survived. Later on, it came out that one of them had brought them out from Poland by blackmail money-making, or was it merchandise, the gift to the border patrol to let them go through? This Chana had a -- she was pregnant first, so she couldn't come. 48:00So, somebody else came. And then, three months later, she had this son, and she came to the border where she had to put a tape over the baby's mouth, otherwise all of them would be caught. But he survive-- he's in Israel now, a grandfather, and very proud, educated man.

JP:And do you remember if there was much cultural life in the DP camp?

EFL:Very little. There was, but very little, 'cause I don't -- I'm trying to think of a school, if I went. I wasn't very long there.

JP:How long?

EFL:I'm going to guess that it was less than a year. So, it wasn't -- but what 49:00they did have is, like I said, facilities for the sick people, and electricity and water and -- although the rooms were very small. And I don't remember where a bathtub was. I know where the bathrooms were, but where did I take a shower or something, I don't remember. Possible that with a shisl -- that means with a pot, bring in the room. Possible like that we cleaned ourselves. But was already much better than in Russia. But still, the German -- just that feeling that the Germans are watching you was, for my mother, very painful. For the women, it was very painful -- although they weren't right there at you -- but it just reminded 50:00you -- but on the other side, you knew so many people survived, which gave you -- make you stronger.

JP:What was your wedding like in the DP camp?

EFL:It wasn't bad. It wasn't a big one. My fa-- stepfather was able to buy things. Also, my husband did not live in the displaced camp. He lived private. So, he knew -- already had some money or some -- remember taking me to this -- possible that she was a German. She had a wedding gown. I have the pictures, I have the gown, yet -- it's sixty-four years, I think, I still have the gown or my daughter has the gown. It was nice, but nothing elaborate like my children's 51:00(laughs) wedding. And my mother was superstitious, and she did not, on -- did not walk because she had the second husband. She didn't want to bring bad luck.

JP:So, she didn't walk you --

EFL:She was -- no.

JP:-- down the aisle?

EFL:She was under the chupah, but she -- not walk anything. And I was upset that everybody's in tears. We tried to have a klezmer or something, but everybody was in tears there. So, walked the aisle, was -- I call it a "tante," an aunt, -- she helped, probably, also with the wedding -- she walked me, and my husband had the sister, with a husband that walked me, that I remember. I remember we 52:00changed the room, where I stayed closer to the hall, so it could be more -- and they brought in -- not -- I won't say much food, but there was challah and herring and probably those things, is what -- wine -- is what I remember. And there were a lot, a lot of people holding the candles, which I didn't like. (laughs) I always afraid -- away from my hair. I had long hair, and away -- my mother would yell, "Put it in a glass, don't hold it like this, and sparks shouldn't fly." That I remember. And because my husband lived private -- so, he had some money, and he made me the first suit -- my daughter has a picture of us -- my first dark suit. And in Germany, you went to a tailor, you didn't go to a 53:00store at that -- and he took the measurements and he -- so, I guess he had money already, which made it much easier for us. It's possible that he made it in black market. Then, I remember something -- his partner. Bernard had a store, a leather good-- which made some money. But the store could not have -- even then, I don't think it was in his name. It was in the accounting -- the man, I think it was in his name, for some reason. But that was a little bit easier money, because I remember my first beautiful pocketbook, my first wallet, probably my first wristwatch, too, from -- and that's when -- I was married young, and my 54:00husband was thirteen years older than I.

JP:How old were you?

EFL:Trying to think. Probably eighteen. Uh, so later on, I said once -- in that I wanted a father figure, because I had to be sheltered all my life, that I -- I really didn't pick him. To be the truth, this sister that I was talking before -- was my mother's friend, and they kind of made a shidekh [marriage proposal].

JP:And how did they know him if he was living privately?

EFL:Oh, the sister knew where the brother lived and all that. Two brothers, oh, yeah. He came often -- and she had a child, this Meyer, and he came very often. And we're on the same block -- kind of lived -- where he saw me before I saw him 55:00or wanted to see him. I was in a club with -- can't remember the name -- with young people my age. And somebody saw a gold bracelet on me, and she told me, "Don't do it. You're going to -- don't do it, because if he was in ghetto, he's sterile." And my mother would -- always laughed that, "He'll find a way, he'll find a way." Although, deep down, she was frightened, too. I didn't conceive 'til -- three years, and all kind of prayers went out. But honestly, if I -- as much as I loved him later on, I probably would've chosen a younger man and all that. But I really tried to be so good, whatever my mother said, because I felt so sorry, what -- she always cried, "My Moyshele didn't live to see anything," 56:00or that he didn't live to see our wedding to him, and so I -- whatever she said, I was grateful. But did I have my own mind? I don't -- it's questionable. And he was good to me, yes. Very good. But he had hang-ups from Katowice. He was from Katowice, Sosnowiec, and he was Bergen-Belsen when he was very young. The story goes like that: when he -- he was shot. One time, he ran away, and he was shot -- in the air, they shot, but they caught him. And he wasn't afraid of the dog, 57:00somehow. They were always -- Germany with dogs, but -- so, they called him Hans. They changed his name from Chaim to Hans, because he got along and he was less than his dog -- you would throw a crumb, this SS man, but he supposedly -- Hans Feder survived. So, the family wouldn't know who Hans is. He got in touch, I guess, in Germany somehow, he got in touch with his sister from Poland. And that's how he survived. But he had a lot of hang-ups because of that. I just remember him sitting, brooding so badly. And I would say, "Rivkele, gay zits afn tatns shoys -- geb in tatn a kish [Rivkele, go sit on your father's lap -- give 58:00your father a kiss]," and that would help, and we were both laughing or whatever, for the child's sake. That brought the family together a lot.

JP:What languages did you speak with your own --

EFL:Yiddish.

JP:-- family.

EFL:Rita started in Yiddish. I didn't like if -- even if I knew, I didn't like Polish, although I knew probably at least three languages as a child. That would be Polish, Russian, Yiddish, at least. And 'til today, I have even songs that I liked, the -- probably belonged to some kind of group. I have a hard time reading it. But it -- my children saw these, my children probably have these. So, there were some -- even at that moment where I forgot myself and was able to 59:00sing or to have a poem, and -- but that was all in the displaced camp, probably not before, and don't remember. I don't remember even bringing an extra dress from Russia. I remember I didn't like -- somebody made from a blanket a coat for me, and I didn't like it. I had no choice, but I didn't like it. Probably was a -- the material, rough, but -- and then, somebody -- taking off her scarf, probably my mother's friend, the same town, and putting it on, "Dos kind muz leybn [This child must live]." And I didn't like that. I didn't like it at all. I was --

JP:Why didn't you like it?

EFL:Probably because I wanted they should live, too. Not -- don't put on me such 60:00a heavy weight. Don't do that to me, and -- but my husband explained to me, that is -- that gave them strength to live and to see the child through.

JP:Did you or your mother ever meet your father again?

EFL:I did. My mother was, let's say, angry at him, and this sister, Chana -- sister-in-law -- went with me. He had a place in Jerusalem, a wife and two sons. I met them, and I even was on his funeral. It just happened like that. And, yeah, he passed away before my mother. But she did not want anything -- even too much talking about it she didn't want to -- it upset her too much, and -- but 61:00the son met my mother, too. I brought him to the house. I think his father, too. For some reason, I'm not even sure, I'm not in touch with them. It probably had to do -- something with the house, with the yerushe [legacy]. Something was said to upset me instead of helping me -- that we broke up. I regret it, but I'm not sure -- but it's probably a two-way -- he didn't try any harder, either. But I did see them, I'll say, two, three times. I remember I went the last time with a neighbor, and the neighbor came in one day to my mother's house, and she looked sad. And she said, "Come out with me." Very sad and she didn't -- when my mother 62:00was sick already, she didn't want to upset my mother. And she told me, "You're going to go to a funeral. Your father passed away." So, I went to this uncle. Dave. Yeah, he come to me or I went to him, not important, and we went -- Jerusalem, to the funeral. Somehow, they were Orthodox, and I don't remember if I was at the cemetery, because the children should not be, I don't know, at a cemetery. But I must have been later on, because I know some of it, where he's buried, Mount Sinai. So, I know where he's buried, and -- but I didn't have any feelings for him, not really. I wasn't really angry of him, but a stranger he 63:00was to me.

JP:And why was your mother angry at him, do you know?

EFL:Probably -- what I'm going to guess is he didn't try hard enough to get in touch with us. But it's possible, just like we thought that he is dead, he must have thought that we're dead. So, my mother was not the same thing with my brother. They went away together. He must have been knowing that he was killed, so she had a lot of bad feelings about this. I think, to the wedding, there was some kind of invitation. And for one reason or another, he did not acknowledge anything. He did not acknowledge me, even already that we knew where he was. So, 64:00he must have known where we were. But I don't carry that kind of grudge. I don't -- maybe I was young and naïve and she wasn't. And it turned out to be that he had a wife, he was better off in Russia than we were. If he would have gotten in touch with us, the life would have been a little bit easier.

JP:So, where were you and your mother in Russia, where --

EFL:By Kiev. I don't remember exactly the town in Kiev. But there was like a farm. I remember some -- helping pick whatever, let's say strawberries. So, wintertime was bad in that time. Wintertime, I remember this baker, this stove -- was so bad a winter that he didn't want the children to die, and he looked 65:00away -- he must have been -- yeah, gosh, another Jew. He looked away at night. He left kind of -- let's say the window or the door open, because he knew it still warm up there, and will crawl by this big oven to survive. That year, a lot of people died. Starvation, cold, and whatever. But the children, he loved the children. He let them stay there. Of course, they probably woke us up, four o'clock in the morning, "Get out, we're going to do --" this and this. But at least we had -- if it's not bread, then the aroma (laughs) from the bread will make you survive.

JP:And your father was in the Russian army during --

EFL:Yes.

JP:-- World War II?

EFL:Yes, yeah, most of them were taken right away -- the same year that we came, 66:00he was taken, but they were not trained. He was hit in the neck, is what later on -- he had sort of like a stiff neck when he worked. He worked hard in Israel, too. He worked very, very hard. A beautiful home, Talpiot someplace, the best area. And I was there, I don't know, twice or three times. I don't hate her, but I don't (laughs) love her, either.

JP:His wife.

EFL:His wife, because my life would have been easier, just to have his love. So, I never -- he asked me for forgiveness. I don't know, did I have a smile on my face or something? I did not -- I don't think I forgave him, really, for not accepting -- it almost felt like, "You didn't accept me." And yet, if we didn't run that time to the train, I wouldn't have survived. I would have been the same 67:00thing, going to the ghetto. So, it was his doing probably more than anybody's, shlepping us on the train.

JP:What train was this?

EFL:In Poland, there was a train going -- because in Lwów or Lemberg, you can call it, is on the border. And if you had -- probably, you had to buy some kind of ticket. So, you can get on on that train. You really didn't know where -- at least children didn't know where the train goes, but we know will wind up in Russia. We were just afraid not to wind up in Siberia. But they let the people off close to Kiev is what I remember. It wasn't a good time, but everybody was happy -- I'm still alive, and everybody was happy. And the Russians let us in. 68:00That time, Stalin let the Jews in. America didn't. Anyplace else didn't. And, like I said, in America we had family. And somehow, I don't know why or when, I did see the family when I arrived to America.

JP:What were your first impressions of the United States when you arrived?

EFL:I felt free. I guess I felt proud that we did make it, that we will survive from now on. I won't die anymore of starvation. And don't forget, I was with my husband. The only pain was that my mother wasn't with me, but I still had the dream: I'm free to go as I want anytime. I knew my husband wouldn't follow. 69:00That's where the pain was. I wasn't sure if my husband would follow. We did go as visitors.

JP:To Israel.

EFL:To Israel, yes, yes. And we were very welcome. And I knew I didn't want any children in Germany. But in America, I knew my children will be learned and -- happy life, not like my life. And sure, all three are -- college professor is my grandson. My daughter is a -- she was the teacher. Marilyn was the teacher of mentally challenged, and a -- then a -- oh, what do you call it? Not supervise -- can't think of it. And Rita's just with a lawyer, knows more than the lawyer 70:00does. And my son works in the Israeli bank, probably more than thirty years already. And he sent his two sons -- Harvard College, yeshiva. He's Orthodox. So, I'm very proud that I did arrive -- probably in Israel would have been the same life. Not hard or -- also, we were afraid that he's going to be taken in the army, Israeli, which he was not prepared for and he didn't want to, really. So, that was the hang-ups. But he worked hard in the United States. Both of us worked hard and both of us had enough to support three children. I worked 71:00part-time, because I would never let a babysitter or somebody -- and when they were in school, I tried to work, but I always wanted -- when they came home, I wanted to be home, which was not easy. But we never starved, we never -- we didn't own a home 'til we were both closer to retiring age, where we bought a home -- a condo in Lakewood, New Jersey, which my daughter loves 'til today. And my granddaughter loves to stay -- it's a very calm feeling. It's secure, which I guess -- I needed that more than -- probably he needed that, too. So, the life was easier, and I knew it -- going to be easier once I came to the States.

JP:How did you learn English?

EFL:I had a professor -- I think I mentioned it, I had a professor that would come in and just introduce me and tell me what Newark, New Jersey had, what the port means in Newark, New Jersey. He would write down words for me. He would tell me what a train is, and the words -- what a grocery list would be. I was not really educated by him, but I was introduced to the education. Was a very learned man. Did we trust him? I don't know, but -- we still had this hang-up, you can't trust the Germans. But he was a highly educated person, which we looked up 'til today -- if somebody is highly -- education, he is a good heart. 73:00He's not a -- not somebody that you really -- will do you harm.

JP:Was this professor German?

EFL:Yes. That's what I said, did we trust him? But we knew how -- also, because he had a store, this bookkeeper, I call him -- I don't remember the name -- he also knew a little bit, and he said -- showed me on the map when the work would be. New York, Newark, a little bit -- and probably more to my husband -- and he'll tell stories about New York that he read.

JP:So, he also worked with your husband --

EFL:Yeah.

JP:-- to introduce him to English.

EFL:He was a bookkeeper, and it was just like a dream at that time for my husband and his partner, Bernard. It was like a dream that they had. Why rush 74:00into Israel? Israel will always take me. But America, you had better chances of making something of yourself. It started out -- that store, probably black market, whatever. But because that bookkeeper, it was in the press, probably. I'm just trying to remember. I have pictures of that store. The women didn't really go in that store. Maybe --

JP:The store that your husband and his partner, Bernard, ran.

EFL:Yeah, yeah. The women really didn't go. I remember waiting -- six o'clock is going to be supper. I have to make sure we ate together, with her and with -- but I knew how much he'll bring home. I knew of -- but I never kept any books or 75:00checks or -- I don't think Bernard's wife, either. So, we were still kept in the dark, but we were -- we had the things, like I said. Made a wardrobe, some before the wedding, some after the wedding, that I never had in my life. I loved shoes with heels that he introduced me to it, and took me places, which -- I remember some of them that I liked. Didn't like nightclubs. Didn't like dancing, 'cause I was Orthodox upbringing. I loved clothes with the sleeves. 'Til today, I wouldn't go in a shul, really, sleeveless. That's -- or shorts. That's something a nice person doesn't do. (laughs) I try, 'til today, to fit in 76:00wherever I go, to fit in. My children fit in. And they try to keep even more in touch with family than I ever did. I brought albums from Europe when I was probably eighteen and all this. Now, they have them on CDs, and the telephone, and -- my grandson is a computer analyst, publicity. I'm so proud of him. That's the father of the baby. I'm so proud of her, too. She is a rabbi's daughter. Rabbi-- I can't think of name right now. Teitelbaum. But she's not Orthodox. Of course, he's Orthodox, and was a beautiful wedding. They have, I believe -- listen to this, I believe they have nine children and thirty grandchildren.

JP:Who is this?

EFL:This is Sarah, Mark's wife. Sarah's her name, and Rabbi Teitelbaum has nine children, I heard -- well, I saw them, I shouldn't say heard -- and thirty grandchildren now. That's a family in itself. (laughs) A town in itself, (laughs) which I'm proud of.

JP:We just have a few minutes left, so I want to ask you a few closing questions about Jewish identity and about Yiddish. What has been most important for you to transmit to your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren about Jewish identity?

EFL:The reason would be also the -- so, it started -- the survival, strong, because I did believe in God, and I taught all the children Hebrew, strong. Of 78:00course, Yiddish, they understand Yiddish, and it was so much happiness to see a boy become bat-mitsve [sic], that what -- so much happiness, and they know all the holidays in my house. They remember the father sitting head table and the mother serving right there -- it was important to them. Going to a shul is important to them. Understanding what you pray, I think, is still important to them. The education and the knowledge in Yiddish and Hebrew, although it's not completely isolating -- no, it's not just that they will not marry out of their 79:00religion. I do have, in the family, married out of religion. It was very hard on me. Very hard. The professor and all that, my first grandson, that was -- I would never believe it. He -- he reads Torah fluently, he's highly educated. How she came in in the family, I really don't know. But by then, my husband was not alive anymore, and I felt I will not lose him. I have to give in. I'm not sure if I would be as happy holding his son as I am happy holding Mark's son's -- brother's child. That is still a painful situation, although I accept it, and I 80:00was at the wedding. That's very painful for me to accept, but I also saw it in Marilyn's eyes, too, and I couldn't do that to Marilyn -- not to go. We have this thing about a scarf. I didn't realize that I'm doing that, but all my grandchildren, granddaughters, I gave a scarf. For the longest time, I couldn't give a scarf to this Heather. But I gave it to my grandson, and he gave -- that was almost like a -- saying I will accept you, because in the beginning, I said, "I will not break bread with her." There was a (UNCLEAR) that's still very -- 81:00but I -- more matured, where I love them both. And I was at the wedding, and I accepted whatever. But that's the biggest pain. If I had a choice, of course. Nobody really ask me. Oh, my daughter -- really, it's just happened. I guess it happened -- love. And like I said, I don't know how much happiness his child would bring to me as the -- plus, also, Mark gave a name of his zayde, and I told the story -- I'll finish with that, -- everybody was shot at this -- probably Buchenwald. And somebody fell on top of him, and he must have been -- 82:00laid there for a -- awful long time, not being sure if he is still alive or whatever. But he crawled away, and within short time, they were liberated. And Sarah gave me this skhus [rare privilege], this nakhes [joy] by naming the baby after him. So, that was quite -- I loved the baby more than my life, and the baby will know all this through Mark. Mark is highly educated, Mark will know all the family names, family tree. I think one of my grandchildren ask me about 83:00it, the names, and we tried -- the year and all that, tried -- so, I'm sure Mark has a copy. And that's my biggest pride and joy right now.

JP:What's the baby's name?

EFL:So, in Yiddish, would be Chaim. In -- now, I always forget. I can't remember right now. Too excited about it. And that she, Sarah, brought a lot of happiness, introduced us to so many things. She's with the -- recycling, -- she introduced me to the camp of Berkshire, which I really liked. This year, we didn't go. But she lived not far from there, and she was one of the -- probably before she married -- one of the workers there. And she's quite a young woman, 84:00to be so independent, to have a father for a rabbi. You can't tell in his house -- although it's kosher and all that -- that that's a rab-- but the rabbi was at the bris, his wife, and so -- a lot of siblings. So, this is going to be a happy baby, please God!

JP:And just to close with a couple more questions about Yiddish, what role does Yiddish play within your Jewish identity?

EFL:Wherever I went, I knew I can speak Yiddish, I can identify myself as a -- Esther, I -- a yidishe tokhter [a Jewish daughter]. And it was a help to me to 85:00know that, to some degree, have some pride left. Of course, too much, Hitler took away. But that, 'til the end of my days, would be a pride that I do know, and my children will understand me. When I get angry, I will talk fast auf Yiddish, but they'll catch the words. My son will say, "Wait, wait," (laughs) but he'll catch the word. So, that's a big pride in my life.

JP:Do you have a favorite Yiddish word or phrase or song that you would want to share?

EFL:I have a lot of songs in Yiddish. I still belong to the choir, cantorial choir, and I did sing Rosh Hashanah and my daughter was with me, so that --

JP:Do you want to sing a song now?

EFL:No, but -- that my children know that, and I always sang and I probably will 86:00sing to my grandson, great grandson -- and, of course, I did to my grandson -- a Yiddish song, which I think I already did a little bit. And forget -- is only three months old. But a lot of songs I have in Yiddish, I have in Hebrew. Like I said, I even have a book. I do not read the music, but I am a good voice I was told from the cantor. And I was quite a few years in the cantor's choir. Two cantors. Maybe even three -- choir, which was very, very nice. And my children 87:00know those songs more than I can -- (laughs)

JP:What advice do you have for future generations?

EFL:To stay and continue in the Jewish tradition, in the Jewish way -- you can have a lot of friends in your life, but don't stray away from being a Jew. Somehow, somewhere, it'll catch up with you. The happiness is not going to be as bright as when you marry in your religion. And because you were introduced -- and you know how we suffered for being Jewish. So, keep being strong and show that you're the winner by having children, dor to dor, for always.

JP:Do you have anything else to add before we close?

EFL:Trying to think what to tell you. It's amazing how I always had, from any synagogue, so much joy, so much pride when the children had something to do or something to read that had to do with being Jewish, being proud, being a mother. And look around in Yom Kippur. If you hear all the prayers, if you don't feel something touching your heart, that you're touch-- that you're speaking to God through all your prayers -- that is the nicest picture you can have in your 89:00life. Thank you.

JP:Thank you. I want to thank you personally --

EFL:Thanks.

JP:-- for sharing your stories and reflections with me. (laughter) I also want to thank you on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center for participating in the Wexler Oral History Project.

EFL:Thank you so much.

JP:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much]. S'iz geven a fargenign [It's been a pleasure].

EFL:Tsum gezint [To your health]. Oy, cold returns.

[END OF INTERVIEW]