CHRISTA WHITNEY ORAL HISTORY

LESLEY YALEN: Okay. This is Lesley Yalen, and today is October 12th, 2010. And I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Christa Whitney. And we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Christa, do I have your permission to record this interview?

CHRISTA WHITNEY: Yeah.

LY:Thank you. All right. So, why don't you start by telling me a little bit about where you grew up.

CW:I grew up in California, in Berkeley -- well, not technically in Berkeley -- in a very small town called Kensington. But the Bay Area is a very special place. I really appreciated the multicultural environment. And I went to public 1:00school most of my life, and that was really special, too, 'cause I think I learned a lot about society and people from lots of different backgrounds through that. And people often ask me why I ever left, but I don't know -- I grew up coming out to the Boston area, because my mom grew up here -- or, well, there -- on the South Shore. So, I kind of was a bicoastal kid. (laughs) So, it doesn't seem that foreign.

LY:So, tell me a little bit more about your family -- your parents.

CW:Well, my mom comes from a -- I mean, she grew up in the Boston area. My 2:00grandmother -- her mother -- was full Lithuanian. My great-aunt -- my grandmother's sister -- was born in Lithuania. They spoke Lithuanian around the home between each other, but my mom was the youngest kid, and she didn't really get any -- you know, she knows a few curse words and stuff. And then, my grandfather was Irish. A cool fact about him is he was born in 1900. (laughs) But it was a working-class family. But very intellectual -- I remember hearing stories about how my grandparents on that side would do crossword puzzles. And then, on my dad's side is very different -- old American family. I found out 3:00recently that I'm related to Roger Williams, who founded Rhode Island, and also some famous pirate. (laughs) And so on that side, I know my grandmother. She's still alive -- she's ninety-three. And she's the only grandparent I really knew, 'cause both of my parents were the youngest siblings in their family. But my dad's side was -- my grandfather was a very interesting person that I never really knew. He was a journalist and photographer and war correspondent during the Second World War -- and then, left my grandmother for another woman and sort 4:00of was an alcoholic and a misogynist. (laughs) But this sort of war part of his life is very interesting to me. But I don't know. I mean, religiously, my mom's side is very Catholic, but they're all sort of lapsed Catholics now -- or almost all of them. And then, my dad is atheist. So, I had sort of an interesting religious atmosphere in my house, because we went to Sunday school and I went to church every Sunday and had that Catholic education, but then there was always this -- doubt was part of it, too -- which was for me, I think, really great, because it was a balance. And my parents -- my mom really wanted to give us a 5:00religious education so that we would have some basis if we wanted to -- you know -- I mean, I appreciate that education just as education. But it was always a choice. Past a certain age, we could choose if we wanted to keep going or not.

LY:So, in your home, can you describe the kind of cultural or religious traditions? Or aspects of cultural and religious life that you remember growing up?

CW:Yeah. Well, my grandmother lives five minutes away from my parents -- so, the house I grew up in. And so, holidays were sort of divided between my grandmother and coming to the Boston area. We came to Boston a lot -- or it's actually Quincy. (laughs) But I don't know -- in terms of religion, very little. I always 6:00thought it was weird when we would go to other people's houses and we had to say a blessing. It was like, (whispers) Oh my God! You know? But I think as a kid, I was pretty brainwashed for a little while (laughs) from my catechism. But I don't know. This isn't really about the home, but I remember a moment when -- so in Catholicism, you're baptized, and then the first sort of -- what is it called -- sacrament that you do as a semi-free-thinking (laughs) age person -- at age twelve, you do first communion. And then, you're supposed to do confirmation 7:00when you're about fifteen. And I remember my parents sort of saying, Are you going to -- you know -- that was sort of when it became a choice, and I realized that I couldn't confirm my faith if I wasn't really sure about my faith. And I had had a really good friend at church, and I realized that I didn't know how to relate to her anymore, because our whole friendship had been based on religion -- you know, and Sunday school and everything -- and that was weird when I stopped going to church every Sunday, and that friendship changed. But in terms of the home, I think education was huge. And literature was huge. My dad was an English major. So forever, since I can remember, they read to us. My dad read the "Oz" books to us. So, that sort of instilled my love of literature. And we 8:00could only watch PBS when I was a kid, so I think I learned a lot through that, too. We, as a family, were always really interested in National Geographic shows. And my mom, in her undergrad, was a science major, so that was sort of part of it, too. So yeah, curiosity. And I remember having these frustrating moments -- I would try to come home and tell my dad something that I had learned in school that he didn't know, and I could never do that, because he seemed like he knew everything. You know, I'd be in World History or European History or something and be like, "Hey dad, did you know about this war and the people?" And he would always know. Of course, that changed when I started doing Jewish 9:00studies, because now he doesn't know anything. But (laughs) yeah.

LY:So, tell me how you came to Jewish Studies and Yiddish.

CW:Yeah. God, people ask me this all the time, of course, (laughs) and I never really have a good answer. I was thinking about how to -- you know, what I would say today. (laughs) But I think the real answer is, chance and -- I don't know, how does anyone develop a passion or an academic interest? Because for me, it's really an academic and cultural interest. I think -- I mean, I grew up with a lot of Jewish friends. I mean, especially 'cause I -- the only time I didn't go to public school was seventh and eighth grade, and there was a huge Jewish 10:00community, and of course, that's also when everyone has their bar and bat mitzvahs. So, that's when I sort of was introduced to Judaism -- in that way. But the first time I encountered Jewish stuff at school was through an elective history course. We had this amazing history teacher in high school who taught an elective on World War II, and as part of that elective, there was a whole part about the Jewish experience during the war. I don't know, maybe it sounds weird, but we all had to -- at the beginning of the semester, we basically had to choose Jewish identities. She did it through a lot of chance and stuff, but part of her teaching of history was always, like, simulation-based. So, everyone in 11:00the class had a Jewish identity, and certain people would have more than one person that they were sort of in charge of, 'cause I think we had a hundred people. And then, statistically, throughout the semester, people died. And as we studied historic -- side by side, we were doing the history and then the Holocaust -- and so whenever we would study a certain moment, then we would often have the Jewish part of that. So, we would have these -- she would simulate roll calls using -- and really tried to get us to understand the chance involved in surviving. You know, like, dice games. One of the most memorable things was the roll call, where we all had ID cards, and she would -- some days 12:00in class, she would have us all go outside after we got there, and she would just literally throw the cards around the room and open the door and we'd run in and have to find our card and sit down, and the last person to do that -- or the last two people -- their people would die. And so (laughs) -- I mean, I don't know -- I mean, sometimes when I tell people, they say it's, like, trite -- you know, how do you simulate the Holocaust? You can't. But I think for high school students -- and especially people coming from all sorts of backgrounds -- it was one of the most popular classes in our school, because she made us understand the history in a real way. And so, then -- I mean, I came to Smith because I wanted to dance and do academics at the same time, and then the first class I took was Holocaust literature. I knew that I wanted to -- I had these specific 13:00goals for college. I wanted to learn a foreign language, go abroad, and dance, but I didn't really know what I wanted to major in. So, I took this class, and it ended up being with Justin Cammy, who is an excellent teacher. And the first day of class, he said to us -- there are almost eighty people in the class -- it was one of the biggest classes at Smith -- I mean, 'cause most of the classes are smaller there -- and he said to us, "Isn't it interesting that there are over seventy people in this class, and yet my classes on living Jews, I can hardly get fifteen students." And I don't know, that really stuck with me, because it's true. And also, after going through the semester, I realized -- 14:00that was the first time I was introduced to Yiddish in translation, and that I realized that this is fascinating. There's something about this that I'm really into, but I don't want to -- I can't study the Holocaust as my life. It's just -- I don't think I have the emotional (laughs) fortitude or something. And I don't know, it just seems a little morbid. And once I -- and this is where the chance comes in -- so the first Jewish Studies class I took in college was with a Yiddishist. And Justin included Yiddish texts, where, you know, not everyone would have, or another professor might not have highlighted that. So I then, my second semester of first year, declared a Comparative Literature major. And that 15:00was a way for me to do both Spanish and Jewish Studies. And then, Justin is quite a forceful, persuasive person, and he really turned me on to all sorts of things Jewish and Yiddish-related. And then, of course, the other big chance -- luck -- thing is that I went to Smith, which is just down the road from the Yiddish Book Center. And Rachel Rubenstein at Hampshire taught a Yiddish literature in translation class at the Book Center, so that was the first time -- maybe we had a field trip with Justin, but I think that was the first time I had come here. And then, I really wanted to study Yiddish after that. The other thing that happened in that Holocaust literature class -- and then also Rachel's class -- was, I read Avrom Sutzkever for the first time in translation. And I 16:00had read a lot of literature before that, but he has this one prose poem called "Grine akvarium" -- "Green Aquarium" -- and it was just the coolest thing I had ever read. It was extremely metaphoric. It's sort of reflecting on the Holocaust, and there's this image of the aquarium and memories on one side of the glass, and you're on the other, and as soon as you break the glass, everything disappears. And so, that really turned me on to memory. But then, at the same time, I was realizing I couldn't do Holocaust Studies, so I got interested in the pre-World War II period. And then, I applied for the 17:00internship. Justin actually -- this happened twice, when I applied to the internship and the fellowship -- he was like, "Yeah, I don't think you're going to get it." (laughs) But I did. I mean, I'm really grateful I did. When I was an intern, we still were in the warehouse, moving -- like, schlepping books in ninety-five degrees -- and I'm really glad that I got to be a part of that (laughs) -- and then come back [UNCLEAR].

LY:So, you mentioned Sutzkever.

CW:Um-hm.

LY:Will you tell me about a couple of other favorites? I mean, you mentioned that you've read a lot of Yiddish literature.

CW:Yeah. Well, because of my major, I was doing a lot of literature -- Jewish literature. And Sutzkever, I read a lot of in translation. I can just now start 18:00-- three years later, after starting studying Yiddish -- start to read it in the original. But he's just -- he is a modern poet. And he's not political. I mean, he is sometimes, but they say that he's a nature poet. He grew up -- part of his childhood, he was in Siberia, and he really got a love of nature at that time. And it really comes through in his imagery. And of any poet I've ever read -- T.S. Eliot is my other favorite, which is a little ironic, but (laughs) -- I sort of see them mirroring each other sometimes in the style, because he -- I don't know. It's hard to understand at first. The metaphors are pretty deep. But 19:00then, the meaning is -- I don't know. The strength of poetry, I think, is really to make you think about something in a way that you wouldn't, and he really does that. I mean, he plays with traditional forms, too. He has rhyming poems. One poem -- the first one that I really listened to in Yiddish -- was "A vogn shikh" -- "A Wagon of Shoes" -- which is a really intense poem about a wagon of shoes. And he sees his mother's shoes in the wagon. But the entire poem is -- it has a rhythm like this: "Di vogn yogn yogn, vos brengn zey mit zikh? [The wagon rolls, rolls, what is it carrying?]" Like, you can hear the wagon wheels going in the 20:00poem. And I have this CD of him reading his own poetry, and it's so -- he's like (imitates rhythm of author's speech) such a -- he reads like this. But you can hear the form. So -- yeah. I don't know. (laughs)

LY:So, did you start learning Yiddish at the Book Center's summer program?

CW:Yeah.

LY:So, what was that like?

CW:It was really new to me to be in -- you know, I, by that time, was really committed to Yiddish and Jewish literature -- to the study of Jewish literature. Justin really gave me a gift, I think, by not ever questioning my interest. But immediately upon entering -- coming to the Book Center, actually, people started 21:00asking me why. I mean, in terms of -- I didn't learn a lot of Yiddish, but I learned some. And it was really cool to see the books. But I also encountered, for the first time, skepticism, and -- I don't know, just, like (laughs) -- but it was the first time that summer that someone ever called me shiksa. And I knew what that word meant, and it really hurt me. And I would ask them to say no, but they would joke about it and kept using that term. And for me -- I have a pretty tough skin for a lot of things and I'm pretty sarcastic, but when someone used that term to me, and especially in the sense that, like, "you're not supposed to 22:00be here" type of way -- I don't know. It's kind of like -- the word literally is used -- meaning, like, a whore -- I mean, in the worst sense of it. And so, I kind of felt like I was whoring the culture or something, like I wasn't welcome. And so, that has been a sort of battle since then. I mean, of course, it only came from the other students and it didn't come from any of the faculty. And I met faculty that summer that I still keep in touch with. And so, academically, it was huge for me. But in terms of realizing what I was getting into, it was also really important -- you know, that there was gonna be some struggle. I 23:00mean, the other just totally crazy thing was that that summer, I was dating a Palestinian. (laughs) And so, there was someone in the program who would be like, "So, are you still dating that Arab?" And that was really hard for me, too, 'cause I think that people who are raised in a Jewish home or a Jewish environment often have opinions about that -- sort of innately -- but I didn't. Obviously, it was a contemporary issue, but it wasn't something that was focused on in my family. So, I felt really ignorant. I didn't know how to talk about it, 'cause I didn't know the history. I mean, I knew about it -- and especially after dating a Palestinian, (laughs) you learn a lot. But I felt caught in between at the same time. So, I kind of learned what to avoid talking about and 24:00where my comfort level was. I mean, it's changed a lot since then, but -- you know, it doesn't feel good to have to hide things, and that summer I felt like I had to hide things from certain people. In terms of -- yeah, I mean, this challenge of, do you try to pass or not? And then, my name makes it impossible for me to pass. But I don't want to pass. This is just a passion. Why is it so weird that I just study something that I like, you know? And then, simultaneously encountering this really intense political issue that I just didn't really know where to go with it, you know? So, it was an important 25:00summer. (laughs)

LY:So, how do you make sense of that whole issue of being a non-Jewish person in this Jewish -- Yiddish -- world today? I mean, how do you feel about it?

CW:Well, working at the Book Center is a godsend. There were a few awkward encounters when staff didn't realize that I wasn't Jewish when I first came, but it's just such a safe environment for -- in that way. And Aaron and Amy have been really supportive of me. And I think that having Aaron's support and validation really helped me to be comfortable with it. And also, just -- I've 26:00been studying Jewish literature -- Jewish Studies now for like, five years, and just sort of time passing, and realizing that yes, this is something I still really care about. And talking to certain professors who say, Actually, you're really important to the field. Ethnic Studies that's only taught by people of that ethnicity is -- it's like a weird thing, you know? So, I felt a little validated by that kind of talk, too. But it's still -- it's always a struggle. I mean, I love giving tours here. It's one of my favorite parts of the job. I love educating people about what I care about. But every time I prepare to do a tour, I have to brace myself, and I'm like, Okay, which version of the question are they going to ask me and which version of the answer am I gonna give them? You 27:00know, I've had anything from just straight-up curiosity to quite antagonistic -- like, With that name, how'd you become the Yiddish expert? Or like, What are you doing here? Really whoa (laughs) types of things. Yeah. But now -- I don't know. It's just what I do. It's so integrated into my life and the way I think about things that for me, it makes sense. I think for other people, it doesn't. (laughs) And I think for my family, too, they're confused. But (laughs) --

LY:That was my next question. You talked about how the Jewish community has reacted a little bit, but how have your family or non-Jewish peers interacted with this interest of yours?

CW:Yeah. There are different sub-questions in there. My family, I guess -- it 28:00was funny at first. And still, they do ask me, like, So, when are you gonna convert? And there's always some fear in that question, I think -- just because it's totally foreign to them. I mean, not totally foreign -- I mean, Jewish culture is part of American culture, but they don't necessarily -- you know, in America, the religion and the culture are not always -- it's not very clear that Jewish culture is more than Judaism. I think the funniest reaction I got was from my uncle, who said, "Oh, you're studying Yiddish? That's cool. So, then you can learn Hebrew and then you can learn Aramaic and then you can read the Bible 29:00in the original." And I was like, Right. That's what I'm gonna do. (laughs) That was funny. I mean, it's cute. My dad often sends me "New York Times" articles, and he sends me every Jewish thing that he reads, which is a lot (laughs) -- or anything -- especially Holocaust or Eastern European Jewish culture-related. My mom has been to the Book Center a few times, and she is really supportive. I think that -- yeah, I mean, it's just weird to them. But I don't really care. (laughs) In terms of my friends, my Smith friends are incredibly supportive, and we all study sort of weird -- you know, we have our own passions, and I think 30:00they really understand that it's an academic pursuit. But I've had a lot of really great support from them in terms of admiration or -- you know, just mutual admiration for my more academic-y friends, and then -- you know, then there's just acquaintances. And it's funny to sort of observe myself and see when people ask me, What's your job? Then there are all these different ways that I answer. And it depends what country I'm in. Like, when I was living in Spain, no one knew what Yiddish was -- no one barely even knew what Lithuania was -- so when I was saying, "I'm going to Lithuania to study Yiddish," people would be totally (laughs) confused. And then, sometimes I've caught myself 31:00saying, "Oh, I work at a book center," 'cause I just don't feel like explaining it. Or, "I work in a cultural institution" or something. So -- yeah.

LY:So, Lithuania -- will you tell me a little bit about the Vilnius program and your experience there?

CW:Sure. Yeah. I mean, the first issue is always, what do you call the city -- for me -- because (laughs) I have Lithuanian relatives, so whenever I talk to my family, I say "Vilnius," and then people in the Yiddish world want you to say "Vilna," and then -- whatever. But anyway. (laughs) That aside, it was really life-changing. I've been twice now. The first time, it was kind of odd, because I was just coming out of a year living in Spain, and so it was, like, culture shock and linguistic shock. You know, having only lived in -- basically, living 32:00exclusively in Spanish and then trying to switch to another language. I remember the first few days I was there, when I was speaking English, I was speaking with people from the U.K., and I didn't speak normal, like the way I'm speaking now. I had this weird accent, because I had sort of forgotten how to speak English. (laughs) I don't know, I absorb accents really easily, so that was weird. But it's an amazing program. Because of the place, because of the students -- they come from all over the world and for all different reasons. There are people 33:00from high school or beginning of college-age up to people in their eighties -- and grad students, there are a lot of grad students, European grad students -- and then American undergrads, and then Israeli -- like, older generation. But then, just all coming to study Yiddish. I had a really different experience during the two years. Of course, the first year, I had a pretty basic knowledge, and so it was just -- I don't know, the strength of the program there is that they have a lot of stuff in Yiddish, and so I couldn't really -- you know, I would try to go, but then I couldn't understand anything. And they translate some things, but not everything. So that, I think, the first year -- I really 34:00learned a lot -- I mean, of course I learned some of the language, but then just learned a lot from the place and the activities. I mean, it was very intense. It's a very -- you know. As much as I want to avoid the Holocaust, when you go to Vilna today, you are -- in a Yiddish program, you have to deal with the Holocaust all the time. And there's a woman there, Fania Brantsovsky, who's the Yiddish librarian, and she just is sort of the soul of the program. She's not even really officially staff, but she runs the library and she does these really incredible historic tours. And she does this every week or something; it's crazy. And we went to Ponar -- the mass grave -- well, massacre site -- outside 35:00of Vilnius, and we were standing there in front of it, and she is talking about things that people she knew saw, or written accounts that she read. And the history is very close when you're listening to her. So, it was pretty intense. And then, the second year, I was able to understand a lot more, and that was exciting. And the group dynamics were different; I met different people. And I was at a different place in my life. This year, I -- done with college. It was funny: I was kind of like the Yiddish Book Center rep there, and people would ask me about the Book Center, and professors asked me to present about the Book 36:00Center in class and stuff, and so, that was really different. And then, also now that my academic interests are more refined, I was able to seek out the things I wanted more. And I made some important connections to people in the Yiddish world in Buenos Aires. So, I don't know. (laughs) There's a lot to talk about there, but -- yeah.

LY:So, tell me about your work at the Yiddish Book Center.

CW:Well, I love it. (laughs) It's a lot. This is kind of funny, but I came to the Book Center professionally, I guess, about a year ago, in 2009, for the first of their fellows. And the first project I got into was TA-ing this online 37:00Yiddish course. And then, the other big project is researching for exhibits, and that was very exciting. Trying to keep my Yiddish alive, though it was really hard at that time. And then, once the oral history project took off and that became my main work, it just -- it was interesting, 'cause the way it started, it was like, Who has time to do this? And then, so I wasn't even the -- it's not like I said, Oh, oral history -- you know, when I arrived -- like, I absolutely want to do that. I didn't really know what it was about or what it was gonna be like. And then, now that I'm doing it, it just makes so much sense. I think that 38:00I've always been a listener, so I love to -- I mean, my favorite part is still doing the interviews. Now that I'm directing the program, I get to do fewer of those -- or, you know, I have to do lots of other things, but -- I just think there's something powerful about the forum. I started interviewing my grandmother also this last year -- totally unrelated to the project, but it's amazing, when you give the space for an oral history interview, what comes out. It's never what you think it's going to be -- or, you know, it starts where you think it will, but then it goes somewhere else.

LY:This may be a little bit of a digression, but what have you learned from your grandmother that was unexpected?

CW:Well, I think for me, really, it was about honoring her. I'm really close to 39:00her -- I always have been -- and she had a stroke last year, or January of this year. And that was a wake-up call for the whole family, kind of. She's the matriarch. She's ninety-three, so (laughs) of course she is. But I don't know. I mean, she's not an extremely intellectual person, and yet she has so much wisdom. I guess that's what I took away from that -- is, like, she was a working single parent for most of her life, so she made decisions as an individual. So, 40:00I guess -- I mean, I've learned family stories and things about her life, but I think that the thing that I learned the most was just -- I mean, the most satisfying thing was her reaction -- of, like, "Why do you want to interview me?" But then, she got into it, and she really likes doing it now. And I think having someone really listen to her -- especially at that age, people don't listen to older people. So, that's really -- it's been hard for me to see my -- especially when she was sick, how people just dismissed her. And I got really defensive of her. And so, then to -- now that she's better, say, Okay, not only is this important to the family, but it's important to me to learn from you, because you're ninety-three and (laughs) so -- yeah.

LY:Do you have any other specific stories or things you want to talk about?

CW:I don't know. I guess one thing about Vilna -- or Vilnius -- whatever -- another facet of it is just personally, what it means to me is really more than just academic. It's the first place where I really have to think about my own heritage in relation to this academic thing that I do -- or professional thing that I do. Because when I go there, it's like, not only -- you know, my family gets really excited, 'cause I was one of the first -- the only other person from 42:00my family to go has been my cousin, and so my family wants to know what it's like. And so, I feel this sort of dual thing of -- you know, Do I try to learn Lithuanian? Or, What do I want to learn about my own heritage? So, I think that's something that's growing for me -- is trying to figure out -- I don't know, I mean, it was pretty intense to start to think about, What were my distant relatives doing during the war? And it gets into pretty heavy questions -- like, literally, What were they doing? But then, trying to integrate that into the experience there was a -- is a challenge. I think that it's a reason 43:00why I'll keep going back there, too, because I have to -- because it's not only about Yiddish, you know? There are Yiddish programs in other places. Yeah, I mean, it's like, the people there look like my family, and that's really interesting. (laughs) So, yeah.

LY:Were you interested in your own heritage before going to Vilna?

CW:No. Because -- I mean, it's like this parallel -- like, my personal analogy to what a lot of, I think, the discussions that go on in my -- in work. I don't know. I mean, my grandparents' story -- my mom's story is so much like all the Yiddish-language stories. And it's like what I have learned is that it's just like the immigrant story, the American immigrant story. But in the Jewish 44:00Studies world, it's often not integrated into the other immigrant experience. But I think going there -- you know, I went to Ireland too, and I don't have the same academic passion -- I don't see myself dropping everything and learning Lithuanian, 'cause the culture doesn't have the same draw. I mean, I think people just like things that they like, but -- seeing other people, other students, fellow students -- I don't know -- discovering -- I don't like nostalgia, so it's like, I don't like studying things for nostalgia, and I apply that to myself, too. But I think I'll keep learning about it and going back there. And I mean, there's always some curiosity. But the relation -- I think 45:00it's something that I'm going through right now -- is trying to figure out where those two things fit -- those two -- you know, the personal and the professional. So, yeah.

LY:So, tell me more about what it's like in Vilnius -- slash Vilna.

CW:(laughs) Well, it's a pretty -- the country itself is not doing very well economically. (laughs) But it's a beautiful medieval city. The Jewish history there is overwhelmingly impressive. There are all these different layers of history there -- you know, you see the old buildings and then you see the Soviet 46:00memorials and then the really ugly Soviet buildings at the same time, so it's kind of a window into the history of that -- you know, those countries -- you know, in the Soviet bloc. I don't know. It's, like, foresty. (laughs)

LY:I mean, what's it like for you to be there personally?

CW:Oh, me personally. Yeah.

LY:You mentioned seeing people who look like your family, but other -- just -- impressions, yeah.

CW:I don't know. It's moving. More than Ireland, for some reason. I don't know. I think it's so much further away from my life. And the language is so cool, 47:00too. And it's also just an emerging country. I think that also makes it really interesting -- because as its current manifestation, it's only been around since '91, and so that's really young, and so you see the country sort of forming itself. I guess -- I don't know, I'm dancing around this question. (laughs) But there were -- because I was raised in the church -- you know, going to church -- being in church is really comforting to me. And not, like, religiously -- just, you know, a comfortable space. And so (sighs) when I'm there, for some reason, I 48:00feel this need to make up for the possibility that my family was complicit in the massacre of Jewish people. And that's really intense. I mean, how do you -- how do I -- make sense of that? How do I -- first of all, am I ever going to know what people -- what my relatives did? And then, you're faced with the fact that over ninety percent of Lithuanian Jews were killed. And then, at the same time, realizing that it's my culture, too, in some sense. And so, I think -- 49:00what I was going to say is that going -- I went into the ginormous cathedral that's on the main square, and I had never been in there before. I think I was avoiding it or something, and towards the end of the program, I just went in there, and it was really moving. Because I could see -- you know, that's the religious side of my family, at least historically, and so I could just -- in the people that were sitting there, I saw my relatives. And then, at the same time, these really intense feelings of guilt and blame and trying to work that out. Because obviously, it's not me. But, I mean, the other thing is that it was 50:00in Vilnius that I was first called an anti-Semite, which has only happened once in my life. But it was really intense that that would happen there -- like, when I've traveled literally halfway across the world from where I grew up to study Yiddish. Like, it seems like a pretty big sign that I'm committed, and so then to have someone, in this moment of anger, call me an anti-Semite was really hard. 'Cause it's just, like, this reverse racism -- and guilt -- or, you know, making me feel guilty for something I didn't do and then, like, doesn't really have anything to do with my life. But I have to somehow come to terms with that. I think that I fantasize about my relatives. I think it was really important for 51:00me to -- I wrote a short story in Yiddish, in one of my Yiddish classes -- about my imagined family and how they helped rescue Jews. And (laughs) you know, I mean, it seems kind of silly. But I have to think about it that way, because otherwise -- I can't take on the guilt of something that I don't even know is true, but I feel some of that. And then, you know -- it's just -- there's so much human tragedy there. It's not even just Jewish -- it's like, I cried just as much my Jewish friends when I was faced with these places. Maybe someone would be offended by that statement, but it's human tragedy. These people were 52:00massacred. And so, I take that on, as any human would. (laughs) I think. I don't know.

LY:Do you want to say anything more about being called an anti-Semite or how that happened?

CW:I don't know. It was just someone in the program who -- I mean -- yeah, I guess that does lead into this other whole component of being there. Because especially the first year, but some of the second year, too -- when -- and I think -- I'm making -- I'm gonna make -- about to make a lot of generalizations, but maybe I should just keep it personal. So, there was an American Jewish woman there whose family had been killed in that area. And the first time I was there 53:00-- I mean, it's a weird experience to go to a country and not know any of the language, period. Because -- so basically, the whole Yiddish program have no way of talking to Lithuanians during their time there. And then, you're learning about the Holocaust in a very intense way. And for people that have personal connections -- you know, having family members that were killed there -- they're going through these very intense -- emotional, you know, reckoning, sort of. And then, so this woman -- throughout the month, her way of dealing with these emotions was to come -- breed this hatred of Lithuanians. And that was really hard for me to see happen. And it happened with multiple people. I mean, it was also, of course, intensified because there was this incident of -- these stupid 54:00neo-Nazi teenagers tagged swastikas on the Kehilla. I mean, so therefore, when you don't know anything about Lithuania or Lithuanian culture -- not to say that I'm an expert, by any means, but -- and then you're learning about something really intense and you have this emotional connection and something like that happens, even though it's not representative of Lithuanian culture -- I've met Lithuanians now and know that it's not representative -- but observing my classmates grow this hatred towards my heritage through the study of this 55:00language that I really care about was really intense: like, really hard to deal with. 'Cause I don't know -- because then the reason why this girl ended up saying this to me was because of those feelings, I think -- of confusion and, you know, this -- in light of the incident, that she targeted me, 'cause I was a safe target or something -- or I was there and, you know, I'm not Jewish. I mean, the first year I was there, I felt very hesitant to even tell anyone I was Lithuanian by heritage, because there was so much of this going on. And then, when I went back a second time, I was sort of -- I had done a lot of personal thinking about it and was prepared to -- you know, I was like, Okay, this is -- you know, I am Lithuanian. Okay. And there was actually a guy -- an American 56:00Lithuanian guy there who grew up speaking Lithuanian and was learning Yiddish, and so it was cool. I felt like that sentiment wasn't as strong this year. But, I mean, it was. I think when people encounter the facts of a genocide, it's really hard not to antagonize the oppressors. And then, to separate the historical moment from the present when the historical moment feels so present is hard. So, yeah. I mean, I have to rationalize it, because it's not -- I'm not gonna -- I can't just, like, eat that. You know, I'm not -- I have to defend myself, and the way that I do is by trying to understand where those feelings come from. And I think I'm -- you know, it's a constant process, but, yeah. (laughs)

LY:That's really intense.

CW:Yeah. (laughs)

LY:Anything else that you want to talk about?

CW:I don't know. I mean, I love Yiddish. (laughs)

LY:(laughs) I mean, I was gonna ask you as a final question, just to ask you to kind of give some final reflections on your work here -- and, you know, what you think the importance of it is for you, for history, for the public at large?

CW:Well, I am so excited to work here right now specifically. I think that the -- or I know that the Book Center is making really big changes. I mean, just organizationally, they sort of finished mission one, saving the books, and now the organization and Aaron is transitioning. So, that's really exciting. When I 58:00was a student -- you know, when I was trying to learn Yiddish -- or have been trying to learn Yiddish -- it was frustrating that the Book Center couldn't provide me any resources, especially because it was so close. And now, I think that that's what -- that's the name of the game -- is creating resources, gathering information and getting it out there, not just having the information here in a way that no one can access it, but getting it out. And I think that in terms of specifically the oral history project, I'm learning why it's important while I do it. You know, since it's not my native culture, I have a bit of a learning curve in terms of the significance of the work. I mean, I know that I care about it. Like, I know it's important and it's interesting, but in terms of 59:00the significance, I'm just learning more and more how important it is and how really it hasn't been -- you know, some of the stuff that we're doing here at the Book Center hasn't been talked about. So, that's really exciting -- sort of re-educating -- the potential to use material to re-educate. Yeah.

LY:Well, thank you so much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]