ADRIENNE MAYER ORAL HISTORY

ZE'EV DUCKWORTH:This is Ze'ev Duckworth, and today is the 16th of November 2014. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Adrienne Mayer, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Adrienne, do I have your permission to record this interview?

ADRIENNE MAYER:Yes, you do.

ZD:Thank you. Okay. So, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

AM:Okay. Well, I was born in Cape Town, South Africa in 1955. And then my parents lived in Moorreesburg, which is a small town west of Cape Town. And it's a farming community. At that stage, there were three Jewish families there. And 1:00they used to have a bigger Jewish community, and used to have a synagogue and quite an active Jewish community. 'Cause most Jews came to South Africa in the 1900s, leaving Lithuania, leaving the pogroms behind. And then what happened is, they would move out to the country and try and find different lifestyle -- hotels, small stores, and traveling salesmen and that type of stuff. And then after the Second World War -- or even before that -- a lot of them moved back to the city after the Depression to make a living. And my family remained behind. And we were, as I said, one of three Jewish families. And the hotel that belonged to my parents, another hotel that belonged to my uncle, and there was a Jewish store. And then later on, the butcher came. And his last name was Wiel -- 2:00(laughs) -- so Mr. Wiel. But it was W-I-E-L, the German Wiel. And anyway -- and that was it, as far as Jewish life was concerned. We used to go to Malmesbury, which was a bigger town -- also in the wheat industry -- about twenty kilometers away. And the synagogue there was kept going, and they had a rabbi that would travel around and give us Jewish lessons and teach us Hebrew. And then that didn't become worthwhile anymore, and they closed that down. And my brother, who's younger than me, he ended up going to Cape Town to Herzlia, which was a Jewish day school. But they had a hostel -- so for all the out-of-town Jewish kids who had to have bar mitzvahs. Since it was Orthodox -- my family were Orthodox -- a girl didn't have to have a bat mitzvah, so that wasn't that important. And I stayed behind, and my older sister, and we went through the 3:00local, Afrikaans-speaking schools. And then I went on to Stellenbosch. And afterwards, I moved to Israel, stayed there for five years, met my husband, and we came to the States.

ZD:Going back to your family background, do you know when they arrived in South Africa?

AM:I think about 1905, 1906 -- roughly in that time frame.

ZD:And did they also come from Lithuania?

AM:Yes. Both sides. My father's family settled in Moorreesburg. And at one stage, my father was the oldest native-born in Moorreesburg, which was kinda surprising. And my mother's family settled in Cape Town. And they were also from Lithuania.

ZD:Could you describe the home you grew up in?

AM:Yeah. Just a traditional Jewish home. My parents didn't keep kosher, 'cause 4:00it was hard -- it was difficult to do. My mother did light candles every Friday night. South Africa, there wasn't really any Conservative movement. There was a small Reform movement, but we belonged to the Orthodox synagogue in Wynberg, which is where my mother grew up. And that was my mother's traditional family home and family synagogue. So that's where we used to go to all the Jewish holidays. And Rosh Hashanah, we would stay -- later on, we stayed in a hotel so we could go to services. And Yom Kippur was the same. And then they observed Passover. And Passover was a big deal. They would keep separate dishes, and we would eat -- we lived in the hotel -- in an apartment attached to the hotel, and we would eat in the hotel -- except during Passover, where they would prepare food or meals in the kitchen. And I used to love it, because it felt like I was 5:00like a normal family -- in not eating in the hotel. And my friends envied me, 'cause they thought the food was so much better in the hotel, where you had a big selection and you could choose what you wanted. And I kinda wanted to be more normal, so --

ZD:You said it was a traditional Jewish home. What makes you -- what about your house felt particularly Jewish?

AM:We knew we were Jewish by the -- also the community and the society we lived in. And my family -- all the Jewish holidays, I was not allowed to go to school. They would keep me out of school. And then -- there was a lot of jealousy and a lot of -- kind of, in a way, anti-Semitism that I really didn't know -- that's what I was experiencing -- with people complaining and saying, How come your parents' business is open and you can't come to school? And now we're not 6:00talking on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur -- we're talking Sukkot, Shavuot, Passover the first two days, the last two days. And the Jewish community was very active. And they would always send out notices saying, you know, "Stay home, don't go to school." And the school in South Africa was Afrikaans-speaking medium. There, they had religious instruction every day. And we were sent out of the classroom and had to stand in the hallway when that was going on. So that, again, made you different than everybody else. And it's not that you had security in numbers. It was myself, my sister, my cousin. My cousin and my sister were the same age, and I was younger. And then my brother was in Cape Town at the Hebrew school. So that caused a little bit of -- well, you just felt you were different. And people would remind you. 'Cause every time we'd go and visit the -- it was a farming community. We'd go and spend weekends on the farm. 7:00And they would say, Oh, you know, we prepared different food for you. We know you don't eat pork and we know you don't eat the milk with the meat. So you were just aware you were different.

ZD:So was there any particular time in your childhood or during your time in Moorreesburg where you became aware of your Jewishness in a negative way?

AM:Not really. I was proud of being Jewish. I was proud of my heritage. And I was very -- a big Zionist, even though I didn't really know what that was. And it never really bothered me. On the other hand, my sister, who was older than 8:00me, very popular, she tried to blend in. She tried to be accepted, be like everybody else. And it bothered her more, I think, than it bothered me, so --

ZD:Um --

AM:(pause) My father had it, in a way, worse than we did, 'cause he also grew up in this small town. And he grew up there before, in the 1930s. And if you know South African history, which I'm sure you do, the Afrikaners were on the side of Germany, because they had -- the British -- they hated the British -- 'cause during the Boer Wars in 1820 -- 1880, they had concentration camps and they put the Afrikaners in the concentration camps. So these farmers here, that was still fresh in their memory, and they hated the British. So some people wouldn't sit next to my father in class. This is 1930, 1932, something like that. And he said 9:00that they had bigger problems then. Of course, the town had a bigger Jewish community. The town even had a little synagogue at that stage. But there were definitely anti-Semitism there. And they learned to just kinda keep quiet and not get involved in politics -- in local politics or anything like that. Because amongst the Afrikaners, there was this what they call Broederbond -- this was this group of real traditional kind of fanatics, in a way, that believed in the supremacy of the Afrikaner, and they -- I think if Hitler had -- they were in favor of Hitler and felt that, You know what, the Jew is just as big a problem as the English, so -- I didn't experience any of that. Only once in school where the Afrikaans teacher -- this was in high school -- I think he was a member of the Broederbond. He was a real traditional, very strong -- and I was fortunate 10:00that I did very well in school. And I think that was my saving grace. So I scored the highest in Afrikaans. And he hated it. And he told the kids, "It's a disgrace that a Jew got the highest score in Afrikaans." So, anyway --

ZD:So on the note of Afrikaans, Afrikaans is your mother tongue?

AM:Right.

ZD:Were there any other languages spoken in your home?

AM:Yes. My parents spoke English. My mother grew up in Cape Town, she spoke English, and she never really learned to speak Afrikaans properly. She spoke it with a really terrible accent. And she tried. She married my father, I think, in '48, '49, and they moved to Moorreesburg. And it must have been difficult for her coming from Cape Town, coming from such a strong Jewish, English-speaking 11:00community, to this small town. And my grandparents on my father's side, they actually were very religious. They even kept a cow for milk and they had chickens. And the shochet [ritual slaughterer] would come around. And that I even remember from when I was very young -- he would come and slaughter the chickens. And so anyway, you know that they run around without their heads -- the chickens. And I remember that. So they were very religious. And that's just the way the Jewish community was. And that's the community my mother came from, too. And then she just found that, as time went on, it was just too difficult to maintain.

ZD:So being in this very small community, can you just describe -- give a kind 12:00of physical description of the neighborhood you grew up in?

AM:Well, we grew up in the hotel that was in the main street. It was a small, very small business district, maybe three streets. And the pharmacist, actually, was my uncle. And he was Jewish, too. It was across the street from the hotel. And there were stores around. And then it was a big farming community -- wheat farming. And they had a boys' and a girls' hostel in town near the school. And that's -- the farmers would drop their kids off on Monday morning and pick them up on Friday. And many weekends, they'd invite you to come and spend the weekend with them. You'd go off to the farms. And then there were all the regular homes around the area. Small town, so everything revolved around the swimming pool -- the local swimming pool, the local sports arena, the rugby, the -- athletics -- 13:00tennis happened at school. And that was the life -- the other thing that people can't believe is, we would go to school early in the morning, come home for lunch, and then nobody was allowed outside in the streets till four o'clock. You were supposed to do your homework. And adults would come to you and say, What are you doing here? Even kinda -- everybody knew everybody, you know? You couldn't lie low.

ZD:Can you talk a little bit about the language politics that were in the town?

AM:Well, it was Afrikaans, so everything was being spoken and done in Afrikaans. And as I mentioned earlier, the Afrikaners were very pro-German, anti-English. It was more the hatred for the English than being pro-Germany, I think. I think 14:00our fam-- my father's family, especially -- since I was third-generation, really -- we were more just accepted. And people would make comments -- especially, as I said, during the Jewish holidays, if we didn't go to school. Your parents' business can make -- can do their business, and the Jews like money, the Jews like to make business. So that, we heard a lot. But my parents really didn't get involved much in the local politics 'cause their idea was, We gotta run a business, and we didn't wanna alienate, really, anybody. So they kinda lay low.

ZD:And at home, was there a particular political atmosphere? Were your parents members of any political party?

AM:Not really. The -- what was it, the United Party, I think, was at that stage -- before the Nationalist Party came to power. I think they came to power in '48. So my parents were always liberal, but not really progressive. They were -- 15:00they would treat -- I think they treated their staff well. They would always help them out if they could. But being in South Africa, you grew up with a lot of servants. You grew up with a lot of staff. And that was also due to the fact that it was a hotel, so they had to hire a lot of people.

ZD:How did that reflect the rest of the Jewish community in South Africa?

AM:You mean in general? I think the Jewish community were always more on the liberal -- on the progressive side, whether it was Helen Suzman's party or the United Party. But not really many nationalists belonged -- especially in my time. I mean, it was the start of apartheid and Verwoerd and his whole apartheid regime -- which, obviously, we had in my town. It was a "whites only" entrance 16:00and the "blacks only" entrance. And we had a lot of coloreds -- the mixed race -- in Moorreesburg. Weren't really a lot of blacks there, per se.

ZD:Can you describe what it was like growing up during apartheid?

AM:I think as a child, you kind of just accepted it as the norm. It's when you leave -- I left when I was eightee-- twenty-one, I went to Israel. I went to Stellenbosch -- University of Stellenbosch -- when I was eighteen, 'cause my mother tongue was English -- was Afrikaans -- and I just wasn't comfortable speaking English -- I actually refused to speak English at one stage -- and went to Stellenbosch, and again was kinda the minority at that stage -- as far as Jewish people. But I just kept my own traditions. And then I went to Israel on -- actually, it was a university tour. And -- for a month -- it was Israel and 17:00Europe -- and I came back and I said, "I'm going back to Israel. And I'm gonna make Aliyah." And I actually ended up taking ulpan lessons in Cape Town. And I would go every Wednesday to -- I think it was Claremont -- and attend ulpan there. And then I did Aliyah -- I was doing the higher diploma for teachers in South Africa after my initial degree was in commerce -- a BCom degree. And then I said, Okay, to be a high school teacher, you had to do this diploma. And I was looking for a temporary job, hoping to earn enough money so I could go to Israel. And anyway, couldn't get a job -- being Jewish counted against me. 'Cause my last name was Katz, so they knew I'm Jewish. And they just were not -- these small, Afrikaans-speaking town were not gonna hire a Jewish girl. And it 18:00was just a given. And then my parents said, Well, what are you gonna do? And I said, "Well, I'm trying to find a job -- a temporary job." And they said, Well, we'll send you. Just go already. (laughs) So I did ulpan. I ended up staying on. I did Kibbutz Ulpan and stayed on in Israel. I met my husband there. And then -- he's American, so he wanted to come back to the States.

ZD:So you mentioned that when you went to Stellenbosch, you kept your own traditions.

AM:Right.

ZD:What traditions did you keep?

AM:Well, I remember -- Rosh Hashanah, September, there were always finals. And I would go and tell the professors -- and they were very understanding, actually. They would let me take the exam in advance, or they would make special accommodation for me, considering I was, like, the only one -- it's not that there was a whole group of us. I also observed Passover very strictly, where I would go and either eat -- supply my own food or go -- my parents would give me 19:00food and we'd go and make a big deal about going to Cape Town for the seder and that type.

ZD:Um --

AM:And my friends knew I was Jewish, so it wasn't -- I didn't try and hide it. I didn't try and blend in -- which I found my sister tried to do. And she ended up marrying a non-Jew and -- anyways. So it was just different, coming from the same household, everybody felt differently about things.

ZD:And do you think your experience differs from other Jews in South Africa whose mother tongue was English?

AM:It could be, because they weren't so isolated as -- in a way, when you are the only Jew around, people accept certain behaviors -- or they know, Okay, she's not gonna eat pork, she's not gonna do this, she's not -- but the problem is, today, when you have a big crowd and some people do eat pork and some people 20:00do not observe Rosh Hashanah, it becomes a bigger problem, I find. So in that respect, that could be. I think having more acceptance might have been easier being in a bigger community. But we were so isolated, it was basically just me and then my sister.

ZD:When was the first time that you -- do you feel that you were part of a larger Jewish community?

AM:I think that's when I went to Israel. And I felt I really learned to speak (laughs) English in Israel -- 'cause I couldn't speak Afrikaans, obviously. And that's why nobody can really detect my accent. They would either think I'm -- nobody would guess South African. They would either think I'm Israeli or -- so. And that's why, I think, when I went to Israel the first time on that one-week -- it was a one-week trip, Israel and Europe, and with a group of Afrikaners who were very religious and was going to Bethlehem -- which I actually didn't join 21:00them the day they went to Bethlehem and all the Christian places. And I felt overwhelmed and said, "I'm coming back. This is where I feel I belong." And I think Israel's living standards and South Africa was very different at that stage. And yet, I felt I belonged.

ZD:Can you describe what the difference was?

AM:I think it was just a feeling of, These are my people. This is where I belong. I'm not gonna be the outsider. I'm not gonn-- 'cause we would also hear in Moorreesburg, Go home to your country. Like, This is not your country. Go home to where you belong. And a lot of insinuations that you were different and that you just didn't belong. So I felt very strongly -- very pro-Israel. I just felt very much at home.

ZD:In regards to Zionism, was that very prominent among South African Jewry?

AM:Yes. I think if you went to any synagogue or any Jewish event, there would be signs up that said, "Go to Israel. Make aliyah." And that was a difference that struck me when I came to the States -- that you just didn't find that here. There weren't the signs up that said, "Make aliyah and contact us." And I felt in -- in my case, the South African Zionist Fed really helped me, 'cause when I decided to go to Israel, I did there what they norm-- known as Kibbutz Ulpan. I left in '77. And if you look at South African history, '76 is when Soweto riots happened, so a lot of Jews -- normally, the young people -- are the first to leave the country. And the whole ulpan classes were all South Africans. And anyway, so when I went to -- on Kibbutz Ulpan with the South African Zionist 23:00Fed, they arranged it all. And then afterwards, they would stay in touch in Israel -- they'd come and visit. And I think it was a stage where they were quite wealthy, 'cause the rand was doing well, gold was strong, and they had enough funds at their disposal. And they actually -- when I decided to stay on in Israel and I said, "Kibbutz life is not for me," they helped me find a job. And they were instrumental in finding a job -- and, I think, in making me stay in Israel. 'Cause I ended up getting a job in accounting at KLM, the Dutch airlines -- which was wonderful, because I got free flights. So I could visit home, which really made the aliyah much easier. And there were lot of young people at that stage. And in Israel, there so many people without their parents, without their family, so you create your own community. And I think that's when 24:00I felt more comfortable being a Jew and being who I am.

ZD:Can you describe a little bit what Kibbutz Ulpan was like?

AM:The Kibbutz Ulpan? Well, it was working half an -- four hours, and then learning Hebrew. And you lived on the kibbutz. And there were, like, four of us in a room. And they would provide you with meals and a little bit of pocket money -- not much, but enough, 'cause once a week, they would go to Netanya for the day and you could buy some stuff there. And they also took you on trips. They'd take you to Jerusalem. And then you could get some time off. I think once a month, you'd get two days off. On this kibbutz, they had a bakery, and baked very good bread. And on Friday -- no, on Thursday evening, the bakery went around the clock to get all the challot [challahs] ready for Shabbat. And they 25:00supplied it to all the neighboring towns and stores. And, anyway, doing the midnight shift -- it was like twelve till four or something like that -- was the best, because they would serve fresh pizza (laughs) that they would bake. And the bread was very good. And I have photos of us standing there braiding the challot and working. And my first job at the kibbutz was really terrible -- it was washing the eggs -- 'cause they had a lot of chicken eggs. And the first day -- I learned very quickly -- I counted and said, "Gee, I washed a thousand eggs today." The next day, they gave me a thousand two hundred. And it was a horrible job. (laughter) Anyway. Then I got a very good job. At that stage -- originally, the kibbutz had the kids in a children's house, and the kids would get separated from the parents at a very young age. But the kibbutzim moved away from that. So they had kinda like a day care center where the zero-till-two would come in the 26:00morning and spend the day there, and I was in charge. And it was the one age group I felt comfortable speaking Hebrew to -- (laughs) -- 'cause their Hebrew wasn't much better than mine. And I loved that. That was a very -- it was also -- we started later. We started at seven in the morning and not at five or four -- 'cause due to the heat, they'd take you out to the fields, picking oranges, picking grapefruits, picking pecans -- where they would come with this machine that would shake the pecans, and you'd get a piece of plastic that you're sitting on and it's cold and you pick up the pecans. It's such a monotonous, boring job. (laughs) So anyway.

ZD:And how did you meet your husband?

AM:Afterwards, I got the job through the Zionist Fed working for KLM in Tel Aviv. And then there was als-- Sochnut had housing for new immigrants. And they 27:00had opened up -- it was a hotel in Herzliya Pituah, which is a very exclusive neighborhood with very nice hotels and stuff. And they had taken over one of the hotels and converted it to rooms for singles -- for young Jews. And my roommate was actually from Newton. You could stay there for a year. And it was very subsidized housing. Afterwards, I rented an apartment with another -- a girl who was American, too. And then we had this whole -- anybody who spoke English, we would get this whole Anglo-Saxon group and we'd get together. Again, it was -- everybody's young, you're in Israel, nobody has got family, so all the olim [new immigrants to Israel] tend to stick together. And through that group, I met my husband -- through a friend of a friend, whatever. We used to get together Friday night. I think there used to be thirty of us. And that was nice. It was 28:00that feeling of community and -- you meet people from different aspects and --

ZD:I just want to go back to South Africa quickly. Since there was Zionism and there was language politics between the Afrikaans and the English, what were sentiments towards Yiddish, if any?

AM:At that stage, not -- in Moorreesburg, nothing towards Yiddish that I was aware of. My grandparents on my mother's side only spoke Yiddish -- they never learned English. And my parents spoke Yiddish when they didn't want us to understand what they were saying. But they never taught us Yiddish. You pick up a couple of words here and there. And I don't think the Afrikaans community at that stage -- especially not in Moorreesburg, because the Jews they were dealing with did speak English -- or spoke Af-- my father spoke Afrikaans, 'cause he was 29:00born there, and so did his brother. But my mother spoke with such a terrible (laughs) English accent. But they accepted her. And I don't think -- think she was accepted. So there wasn't really anybody speaking Yiddish, per se, in this little town.

ZD:And what about attitudes towards Eastern European heritage?

AM:I think that would be more from my grandmother and my mother's side, because that was such a strong Yiddish family. They came from Eastern Europe, and there was definitely a very strong heritage regarding food, regarding traditions, that they maintained. I wasn't so much aware of that growing up in my household with my father. Because again, his mother died before I was born, so I didn't really 30:00know her that well. And I think they must have spoken Yiddish, too, at home, 'cause my father knew Yiddish -- as well as my mother did, so --

ZD:You mentioned food. Is there any food that you can remember?

AM:Not anything specific that I could think of. And it's just the traditional Jewish food we'd have -- South African Jewish food, is what I used to call it. You know, the kichel [cookie, biscuit] and the kugel. And the rest is really American -- the bagels we didn't have in South Africa.

ZD:Um --

AM:There's one incident I will talk about growing up in the high school -- to show you about the attitude towards the Jews. I'd mentioned the one Afrikaans teacher who didn't like the fact that I scored the highest. There was also a math teacher. He was actually the principal, and he taught math and science. He 31:00was also a follower of the so-called Broederbond who kept the -- after '48, they were still around -- they were still meeting, trying to promote Afrikan supremacy. And this was during the height of apartheid in South Africa. And we had -- it turned out -- it was Passover, so the first two days you don't go to school, the last two days you don't go to school. The middle two days we got off, 'cause the teachers had to attend some kind of conference in a neighboring town. Then the other two days were the weekend -- Saturday, Sunday -- which meant I had eight days off. So we got back to school, and this teacher got stuck into me, started asking me all kinds of questions. And I knew that I would be called to answer questions, to see if my homework was done, or anything like that. And then he started -- he couldn't find anything wrong, 'cause I was a rather -- I was a good student. And I think that was my saving grace, in a way, 32:00growing up. And then, he started asking all kinds of questions about Judaism. And of course, the one question I always got is, How come your parents' hotel is open and you can stay home -- you can't come to school? Then he said, "Well, in the Bible, it says that it's only seven days. How come you're celebrating eight days?" And I really didn't have an answer. And I started speaking, and I didn't know what I was gonna say. And he said, "Go sit down." And today, in this day in age, I can't believe anything like that would happen to my kids in school here. It just wouldn't be tolerated. And yet, you kinda took it for granted. You can't fight it -- that was the attitude my parents had, you know? And then my father would tell me what he went through -- and kids wouldn't sit next to him and that type of thing. But this was an exception. These were the only two incidents that 33:00really stands out in my mind. And I think it was more of an exception than everybody feeling like that. 'Cause other teachers did accept us and did -- not -- so, anyway.

ZD:Another question about your time in South Africa. Did you ever go to summer camp?

AM:No. And I love being outdoors, so there wasn't much offered -- I didn't go to Habonim or anything like that. I wouldn't have felt comfortable, because I didn't speak English well at all, so I really did not feel I belonged with the Jewish young people that we'd meet. We used to go to Muizenberg, which is a beach resort just outside Cape Town -- that's where my mother went. And actually, on the beach, you could hire -- we called them boxes -- those little changing rooms -- and little triangular -- and their family had owned one 34:00forever. And that's where my mother used to go. And we got to know all the people around us. And it was all young people -- well, my mother's age, with their children, who were about my age. And I would not feel comfortable speaking English -- I would speak English, but you knew you -- you sounded different, you just didn't have the same experiences -- you did feel uncomfortable. So I definitely would not have wanted to go to any Jewish day camp or summer camp. And then in Moorreesburg, they had the religious after-school group, and then they had one called Landsdiens, which was more like the boy scouts, girl scouts type stuff. And although I actu-- I loved going hiking and doing those activities, I just felt as a Jew, I wasn't that welcome. So I didn't belong to any of that. It was only later on, when I went to Stellenbosch, that I 35:00participated more in the outdoor clubs.

ZD:So looking back on your childhood and young adult life, what values or practices do you think your parents were trying to pass on to you?

AM:I think being proud and being Jewish -- being proud of who you are. And then really supporting me. My parents were very supportive when I went to Israel. They really made the aliyah very easy. And as I mentioned, before I worked for KLM -- I could send monthly allowances by air, and they would send me parcels. And I felt just being that supportive and encouraging me -- as I am at the age now where my kids love to travel and not be home, you realize what a sacrifice that is, 'cause it's nice having your kids at home. And of course, the political climate was such in South Africa that all the young people were leaving -- or 36:00thinking of leaving, at least. So -- but my parents really supported me.

ZD:So you say that the political climate in South Africa made a lot of young people want to leave. Can you discuss a little bit the political climate in Israel when you were there?

AM:Well, when I moved to Israel -- what, was '77, '78? -- it was still the Labor Party were ruling. And then things changed. I think it was '80, '81 when Begin came to power, and it became more right-wing -- more Likud. And my husband then -- he'd lived in Israel, actually, since '73. And he felt it was becoming too much like America -- with people getting too much -- you know, buying the bigger car, buying the big TV -- and felt that Begin just won votes by reducing the 37:00taxes and all that. And his attitude was one of, Well, if I want to live in America, I'll live in America. And he was a little upset with just the ideology -- the way the country was moving. But I think when I lived in Israel, I never felt -- it was exciting, because things were always happening. You really couldn't go to bed early. You never knew what's gonna happen overnight. Are they gonna change the currency? Are they gonna attack Lebanon? Or what's gonna happen? But I felt there was a lot of ideology -- being proud of being there and working. And I enjoyed it. I think it's changed a lot. I mean, there's so much building and development going on. I was in Israel two years ago, and it was very different than when I lived there. Tense, and I think the political situation at the moment seems to be more tense than when I lived there.

ZD:(pause) And how do the American, Israeli, and South African experience of Jewish culture compare, to you?

AM:Oh, that's (laughs) a difficult description. Because I think -- I found my Jewishness in Israel in many ways, but I knew enough about the tradition and the history that I learned from my parents. And then when I came here, I again was amazed about how little a lot of people my age know -- about either observances or just basic traditions. I was surprised that people really were not aware of 39:00that. Maybe it could be because there's so much either intermarriage or more acceptance, whereas in South Africa, it was really -- everybody was Orthodox. We weren't as observant Orthodox, but there wasn't really a choice. And then in Israel, you were just Jewish by being -- living in Israel. And even if you didn't really become -- join a temple there or join a shul or whatever the case was. What I liked in America -- what I really liked -- I belong to a Conservative movement -- is the fact that you can sit together and that women can participate. I think that's nice. So I like that.

ZD:Another kind of question -- and transitioning from one place to another and one language to another -- how, if at all, has language influenced your sense of identity?

AM:Well, I think Afrikaans is still my mother tongue, although I don't speak it 40:00often. I don't really speak it, I think, even that fluently anymore. Because the new words, you're just not aware of them -- 'cause you're not hearing it at all. But I still speak Afrikaans to my sister and can have a pretty fluent conversation. And then switching over to -- Hebrew, I never became very fluent in, simply because the work was done in English, and it was a Dutch firm, so -- Afrikaans didn't come in handy, except that I could read some of the Dutch and understand what it was. But everything was done in English, so I think you learn Hebrew much harder that way. They used to say the Russians would come and learn -- or the people from South America 'cause they -- there were just no subtitles or anything like that, and if they wanted to go to the movies or anything, they 41:00had to learn Hebrew much quicker and faster than the Anglo-Saxons would. And then when I came here, of course, people will still ask me, You have an accent, where are you from? And sometimes it kinda gets a little annoying. (laughs) I don't think you ever lose your accent.

ZD:And what role do you think language plays in transmission between generations? 'Cause you mentioned that your grandparents spoke Yiddish and then your parents didn't speak Yiddish to you --

AM:Yes, at all. Right. And I'm not speaking Afrikaans to my kids, because I just felt -- my husband doesn't speak Afrikaans, and I just couldn't see teaching them something that is -- I don't wanna say it's dying. It's very sad when any language should die. But there are definitely less and less people speaking Afrikaans, less and less things happening, since English is really the sec-- is 42:00the main language in South Africa today. It's not like it used to be -- English and Afrikaans. It's now English and then maybe Afrikaans, but not -- I don't think by law it has to have both languages on it anymore. So that is maybe sad. But I've made the kids aware of my identity. I've taken them both to South Africa. I've shown them, and they know. And they know a couple of Afrikaans words that I say. Anyway. But I couldn't see the sense of teaching them Afrikaans. I just didn't think it would be worth their while.

ZD:Okay. And so when did you move to the U.S.?

AM:In '83 we came to the U.S. And we spent five years in Israel -- five, six years in Israel. And my husband had been there longer. And we came here, and he 43:00said, "Okay, if you don't like it, we'll go back." But it's hard making moves across country like that. And then America is relati-- it was easy -- since I did speak English and it was a easy adjustment. My kids were born here. And it's harder packing up at that stage -- much easier doing it when you're young, when you have no commitments and nobody else to think about.

ZD:And just to get a broader sense of you right now, can you give me a snapshot of what your life today is like?

AM:Yeah, well, I never really -- I came here and got pregnant immediately, so I really didn't have much of a career here. What I did, obviously, in Israel, I couldn't -- there were no airlines here or anything like that. And computerization came big-time. You didn't really know that. We didn't use that 44:00to that effect. So I went back to school and I decided to go the CPA route here. And I got the CPA and then I did my master's in taxation. And at this stage -- at the late stage in life -- I have quite a career going for me, which is kinda something I never thought I'd have at this stage. So professionally, I've done well, and I'm very satisfied where I am at this stage -- that it's just different opportunities that arrive that I could have here. And I really think education makes a very big difference.

ZD:And what led you to become a C--

AM:To become a CPA? Well, I had the BCom from South Africa, so I knew accounting -- I had an accounting degree. And then when I was looking for work here -- I stayed home with the kids to raise them, and what actually happened -- my 45:00neighbor said -- I was looking for something to do, and he said, "Why don't you work for H&R Block?" And I did. I called up and they had a course going, and I ended up really enjoying it. I enjoyed meeting with people and staying current. And at that stage of the game, it worked well, because you could choose the hours you wanted to work. I would work at night, my husband would come home, we'd literally switch cars and kids. And then tax season's over in April, and you're exhausted. And two months later, the kids have this whole long summer vacation, so you stay home. And then they start with courses in the spring. Till I decided to -- it's time to join and look for something more permanent. And I decided to go back and go for the CPA. And I passed that. And then a friend of mine suggested -- at a firm -- that, "Why don't you go for your master's in taxation?" So I did that. And then I happened -- life is strange, the different 46:00opportunities that come your way. Because you work for H&R Block, and it's really considered the McDonald's of the industry, and the CPA firms look down at it. Then I ended up getting a job with KPMG. They were -- was one of the big four accounting firms. And what they were doing, they were gonna regionalize and prepare all taxes in Providence, Rhode Island, for the whole area -- the whole New England area. And I went for the interview, came back, and said to my husband, "It's too far. I'm not gonna commute more than an hour every day." And I had just written the CPA exam. And we went on a big vacation to South Africa and Zimbabwe with the whole family. And while we were there, my father died very suddenly. And I was to-- we were all very upset and totally -- it was wholly unexpected. So I ended up sending the kids back, and my husband came back to 47:00America, and I stayed on to help my mother and straighten things out. In the meantime, KPMG contacted me and said, We've been trying to reach you. We'd like to offer you a job. It was a tax season job only. And I said, "Okay, I'll take it." I can't handle looking for a job at this stage. And my father died, actually, in end of December. So this was January, and I said, I just can't handle looking for a job. I'll just take the job. So I took it, and that opened up a lot of doors for me. Although it was only tax season, you put KPMG on your resume, it starts looking better. And then I got a job with E&Y [sic] for another -- it was just a tax season job. And then I got a permanent job with Arthur Andersen. And again, that opened doors -- then you can kinda write your own ticket -- where you're gonna go after that. So that was my opportunity, just -- in a way. You never know what life's gonna hand you. (laughs)

ZD:And how, if at all, are you involved in the Jewish community now?

AM:I've been treasurer of Hadassah, the Zionist organization, for many years. And I've also attended Hadassah's conference in Israel. And I'm member of Temple Israel in Natick and actively involved in the Jewish community there. And, you know, we try and create a Jewish home, and then you hope for the best. (laughs) And the Jewish values are important.

ZD:Yeah. Could you perhaps talk a little bit more about the decisions you made about the type of Jewish environment you wanted to create for your children?

AM:What was important when we settled in the Boston area is -- or when we came to America -- I had mentioned earlier that my roommate at the absorption center was from Newton. And she had met her husband at an ulpan -- at the kibbutz that 49:00she went to for the summer. And she went back and they came back to the States. So she was living in Waltham at that stage. And when she heard I'm coming to America, she said, "Well, why don't you come up to Waltham?" And my husband was looking for work. This was 1983. And again, he was in computers, and there literally was n-- we started in Atlanta, because his mother lives in Orlando -- she'd moved to Orlando -- and also, there were a lot of South Africans in Atlanta. So they couldn't understand me, I couldn't understand the Southern accent. So we moved -- and there were no jobs available for my husband. So we moved up here. Boston was the miracle -- computer miracle at that stage. He had no problems getting a job here. I think it was within less than a month. So that's the reason we settled in the Boston area. And it was important to find a 50:00place with a Jewish community. I did not wanna live somewhere where there were only three Jewish families or two Jewish families. So we settled in the Natick-Framingham area, and there are plenty of Jews there. (laughs) So -- with quite an active Jewish community, with a JCC, and I was always involved in that. And that was important.

ZD:You mentioned Jewish values. What particular values?

AM:Well, I think, the values of being proud of your heritage, being proud of where you're from. And even that, I'm proud of being a South African -- I think that's who I am, and being proud of Afrikaans. And the Jewish customs, the Jewish traditions. Just the basic values, I think. And those are your people, so it -- just feel more comfortable.

ZD:Right.

AM:And send the kids to Jewish camp.

ZD:And just another question to expand on that -- what has been the most 51:00important for you to transmit to the generations after you about Jewish identity?

AM:I think to be proud of who you are -- and what the values are. The values -- the basic values of just being honest, being -- having integrity, and -- I think -- I guess the basic Ten Commandments -- that's the real values, you know? To lead an honest life.

ZD:And how, if at all, does your connection to Yiddish or Yiddishkayt or Eastern European Jewish heritage fit into your broader sense of Jewish identity?

AM:Well, I'd love to go to Eastern Europe and just follow in and see where my grandparents lived and where they came from and the life they led there. That's the roots that really, I think, made us whom we are, in a way. And then when you read all the books about them and how they had to survive -- and living in a shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community] and living in a more smaller community.

ZD:Do you think that, in any way, your experience of growing up in a small village can compare to that experience?

AM:I don't think so, 'cause I think in those days, they had a bigger community. And everybody was preparing Shabbat dinner on Fridays. And it was just kind of 53:00accepted. And it was that bigger community feeling. And this is what we did -- and we'd clean the house and we'd go somewhere and it was more accepted. Of course, if you look at the Jewish history, the Jews were forced to live in certain areas, and they couldn't spread out and just blend in with wherever they are. They weren't given that choice. So I think we -- my situation was different, in the sense that -- in my parents' generation, yes, there were a lot of Jews, the Jews stuck together. But we were only three families, so (laughs) there weren't that many people to stick together. But I think my parents still made -- the fact of going to Cape Town and making a big deal about celebrating the holidays. And as I said, later on, we checked into a hotel so we could attend services. Just giving us the strong values -- this is important, this is 54:00what we do. Not that we kids loved it that much, but this is just what you did, and this is how you observe it.

ZD:Okay. Are there any other topics you would like to touch on?

AM:Nothing that I can really think about, as I brought all the photos of the hotel -- (laughs) -- that's played such an important part in our lives -- in my family's life.

ZD:You mentioned on your pre-interview questionnaire that perhaps you wanted to talk about elderly Jews who remain in South Africa?

AM:Yes. I think -- there was once -- as I said, I'm a member of Hadassah, and I 55:00think it was about ten years ago that we had a speaker -- somebody from the national Hadassah board -- who spoke and had talked about that she'd been to South Africa and wasn't aware about the big, vibrant Jewish community that used to be there, and that a lot of them have left. And those remaining behind are the elderly. My mother died from Alzheimer's, and she was in the Jewish nursing home in Highlands House in Cape Town. And I saw that -- when I would visit her, and I would go once a year and visit my mother while she was at Highland House [sic]. And there were a lot of women there -- or people -- that were forgotten. Their kids had moved out. The kids moved at my age -- young, in the '70s or '80s -- early '80s. And the parents, who made everything possible, have now hit upon 56:00hard times. Because inflation took off -- the rand is not that strong -- and nobody visits them. I remember my mother's neighbor. I mean, she had photos up of all her kids -- all doctors -- everywhere. And nobody visited. Nobody -- kinda forgot about her. And I think that is a big problem, in a way -- that people aren't aware of those left behind. So I always try -- on the yahrzeit [anniversary of death] of my parents, I always give a donation. There's a donor-advised fund in Chica-- in San Diego where it goes towards the Jewish old age homes and the orphanage and stuff like that. 'Cause I feel it's very easy to forget once you leave the country -- to forget what's really happening there, and that the people are suffering. And I saw that. I saw that. And this woman also mentioned it, and I was kinda shocked when she said that there are just not 57:00-- so many Jews have left that they forget about the parents, they forget about the hardships there.

ZD:I think to wrap it up, I'm gonna ask you just one or two more questions.

AM:Sure.

ZD:What advice do you have for future generations?

AM:Well, I think today, there's a big concern about intermarriage. Is the Jewish identity still going to be strong? And I think we have to be aware where we come from. That's why I think the Yiddish Center -- where people were throwing away the books -- it's wonderful that it's being kept alive, that it's being made aware -- this is all our heritage here. These are our parents. And it's so 58:00important -- to know about it, to feel proud about it. 'Cause they all suffered a lot and went through hardships. And we've got it so much easier, where we can easily, you know, practice our religion -- or choose not to practice it. But we shouldn't forget where we come from. I think that's important.

ZD:Do you have a favorite Yiddish word?

AM:Ah. (laughs)

ZD:Or song or phrase?

AM:Um -- [Yiddish - 00:58:54]? (laughs) My mother used to say -- not to have any trouble.

ZD:What does it mean?

AM:Isn't it "trouble"? No -- she doesn't want to make any trouble, any bad feelings in the family -- the mishpokhe is the family --

ZD:And I'm just gonna ask you a few more questions about Yiddish.

AM:Okay.

ZD:What do you think Yiddish means today?

AM:I think Yiddish means, in a way, the old generations -- 1940s, 1930s, even before that -- the language spoken in the shtetls and spoken by our forefathers. And I think it's wonderful that you people are fluent in Yiddish and keeping it 60:00alive. And there seems to be quite a big movement towards that.

ZD:Do you see any parallels in, for example, the way Yiddish is talked about and the way that, perhaps, these elderly people are being treated?

AM:Oh, you mean in South Africa? That it's both forgotten, in a way -- that Yiddish is forgotten and the elderly are being forgotten, too, in a way? That could be. That's a scary thought, if you think of it in that manner. I just think the people in South Africa is kinda out of sight -- you forget about them and you're not aware of them. And that Yiddish could be -- because they decided 61:00to make modern Hebrew the language of Israel -- which I actually think was a good idea, so you don't have the Ashkenazi-Sephardi divide -- like, coming with a new, neutral language. And so I think in that respect -- I think the elderly are more forgotten simply because people -- you forget. You go on with your day-to-day life, you're so busy making a living here that you're not aware of what's happening.

ZD:And this is the last question.

AM:Okay.

ZD:What do you see as the future of Yiddish?

AM:Well, I think it has a future. I think you people are doing an incredible job in what you've accomplished in this short period -- by saving the books, by 62:00digitizing it, by having the programs. And when we came here, I was just amazed at all the young students speaking Yiddish. So I think there is a future. It's most probably gonna be very hard, 'cause you have a very limited amount of people maybe interested. But there's enough that want to go and find out about the past and understand the past and know where their parents -- find out their heritage, where their parents came from. So.

ZD:Okay.

AM:Good.

ZD:Well, thank you very much for this interview.

AM:Okay.

[END OF INTERVIEW]