FRED DAVID ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is November 19th, 2014. I am here in Beverly Hills, California with Fred David, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

FRED DAVID:Yes.

CW:Thank you. Well, I'd like to just start by asking you, what do you know about your family background -- how your family came to live in the town that you were born in?

FD:Oh. I think my family have lived there for a very long time. I don't know the exact amount, but probably in the 1700s -- or even longer -- that they settled 1:00there. And my grandmother was born there and her mother before that. And the men, too. They came from a neighboring village in that area. So. And it goes way back.

CW:And can you just tell me the name of the town and describe where it is?

FD:The town is called Hamm, H-A-M-M. And it's near a river. It's not even on that river, but I'd say maybe half a mile or a little bit over and you get to a railroad station. But the name of that little village is called Hamm. And they really had their roots there for many years -- until 1930 -- 1938.

CW:And it was called Hamm an der Sieg --

FD:Yeah.

CW:-- back then? In Germany?

FD:You speak German a little bit?

CW:A little bit. Yeah.

FD:Yeah. Okay. Yes, it's called Hamm an der Sieg -- Sieg being the river.

CW:And you were born in 1927?

FD:Yes.

CW:Is that right? Okay. Can you just describe the town a little bit? What does it look like? You said it was near the railroad station, but what does the town itself look like?

FD:It's composed of a lot of little houses, whose owners have also been there for a long time. They were mostly German that lived there. And I don't know whether it's still that way today, but it might be that it is. A lot of them just settled there forever.

CW:What do the buildings look like?

FD:I'm not sure what they called that, but it's mostly little houses. Not fancy. There were some -- there are a few that have been built since the war, but most of 'em have been there for a long time.

CW:And can you describe the house that you grew up in?

FD:The house that I grew up in -- we have pictures of it, maybe. I'm sure we do. But -- well, it's about a three-story house that I lived in. And it wasn't fancy, but it was a nice house. Very spacious. And the manure -- when I was there, the manure pile was right along the side of the house. And the cows were 4:00in a stall, just a little bit further away, but not much -- not very far. And the manure pile was a very important part of that, because that's what they -- they had equipment to dispense that, and they used it a lot. And they bought additional manure from neighboring farmers. And they also had a -- urine -- they would save the cow urine -- it had a lot of nitrogen in it, and so they were very happy to have that. Made a difference in the amount of growth of the farm -- farm output.

CW:So can you describe the business that your family was in?

FD:Yeah. They were in the business of raising cows and -- they had chickens, cows, and two horses. And they would use the milk for home consumption, such as butter, buttermilk, and so forth. And they would sell a little bit here, wherever they could -- not that much, but they did, to help in the sustenance of the home -- of the table.

CW:So who were the people that were living in the house?

FD:It would be my father and mother -- father, mother -- and I had one sister. 6:00And that was all.

CW:Um-hm. So how many Jewish families were in this town?

FD:Must have been around nine or ten. Until that time. We stayed there till November the 9th of 1938. And then -- it was called the Kristallnacht. There was a temple -- or synagogue, actually, they called it -- only about a block and a half from where I lived. There were not two temples, just one. And they would come in on that November the ninth and destroy the pictures -- the frames -- 7:00like you see there. We had them there, too. I don't -- not the same ones. I think she got them -- my mother got that -- not my mother, but -- no -- she got -- maybe we had some pictures on the wall, but actually, she accumulated those pictures -- my wife. Gotta give her credit. She liked art.

CW:Can you describe what the synagogue looked like?

FD:Yeah. There probably is -- there are similar ones. It's sort of a -- I don't know what you'd call that style, but I think it's somewhat like the temples that they had -- the Mediterranean style, I think, that's what they -- there are 8:00temples in this country that are very similar to that. One is in Chicago. I'm sure, 'cause I've seen it.

CW:What was it made out of?

FD:Well, I would say cement -- of that order. Cement and steel for -- sustain and to help the -- hold it in place.

CW:And did you remember going there?

FD:No, I -- to the temple there? Oh, yes. Every Friday ni-- mostly Saturday morning we would go there. Yeah. And it was made for -- the women were supposed to sit up high, in the second floor --- made so they could look down, I guess. And so that's what this temple was made -- made for that purpose. And towards 9:00the very end of that period, they quit going up those stairs and just stay on the ground floor. But not together -- the men would sit on the right-hand side and the women would sit towards the left when you come in.

CW:So that changed during your childhood?

FD:During my childhood. Right.

CW:Huh. So what would you do at home for Friday night?

FD:Oh, they'd have a special dinner. Yeah. They would do that.

CW:What do you remember about the dinner?

FD:Being extra special -- dressed up, and then we'd go to the synagogue together. It was only about a block or so. That place is still there -- they 10:00call it Synagogenplatz -- "The Place of the Synagogue." And they're leaving it as a -- and there's a plaque there -- what -- when it was burned to the ground. What they did, they threw in lots of straw from the neighboring villagers and then burned it right down. We had gone to a neighboring village, because my father thought there was something not right -- that they were going to do something. And sure enough, we had gone to this neighboring village, and the innkeeper let us stay overnight. He was a friend of my father's. They also would 11:00keep cows for us, 'cause he was in the cattle business. So we went there, and very early the next morning, we drove towards our village. He should have -- well, he didn't know. And he saw a big fire coming that we could see from a long distance. And he thought that might be our house. It wasn't. But it was the synagogue, which the Nazis had burned down. It was still -- they threatened to throw him into the fire. However, they -- of course, they didn't.

CW:Your father?

FD:Yeah. They had threatened to throw him in that fire. It was a big fire. So 12:00they just burned it. And so we went back towards the village. And when we came in, there were no fires -- it was very cold during that night. But we went there. And as soon as they saw him coming in that door, they grabbed him and they walked him up to the syn-- beat him over the head, too. I remember that. And then they took him to the railroad station -- towards the railroad station, and had him go walk that way -- to the station. And then they took him in some 13:00kind of a cattle car towards Dachau -- that's the concentration camp. It was a fairly new one, because it wasn't there very long, at first.

CW:And you saw all of this?

FD:No. I saw 'em beating him over the head. But -- yeah, they didn't hurt him that much -- purposely. They didn't want to kill him -- or they did, maybe, but they didn't. But it was bad enough. And then they took him to Dachau. Dachau was not that far from Munich. I think it was fairly -- very close. And that's where they kept him. Oh, the other -- like his brother, he lived up the street. He 14:00lived right next door to that synagogue. And they took him -- they'd already taken him by train last evening before -- we were no long-- we were in a neighboring town. So we got him out of there. And he -- my father had a sister in Kansas City. And she had sent us the papers -- they're called papers or affidavit -- to come to the United States. So luckily, she had sent those papers in, and it was being processed. And so she went to the -- it's called the Gestapo. And we got a paper saying that we are on the list, and she gave us a 15:00paper saying that we were on a certain date -- I think I remember -- January third -- we had -- she -- we had the papers to come to Dachau -- no, to the consulate -- the American consulate, which was in Stuttgart. I remember that. And we went -- and my mother went there and got the papers and showed them that. And we got health certificates. They checked our heart and so forth. And so we had a lot of people that came there that day. So we luckily got those papers and showed 'em to the consulate. And got our name on the list to go there -- to Dachau.

CW:Do you know how your father got out of Dachau?

FD:Yes. I know that. He -- they -- my mother had gone to -- Koblenz was the name -- it was a big -- on the Rhine River. And he got out of there and showed them the papers. And we got walking papers, or so to speak -- we got papers to come to the United States. And we went there. And it was a blessing.

CW:Yeah.

FD:That was in November. And I think we had -- the papers -- I think it was 17:00January third. Yeah. November, we went to Stuttgart, where the American consulate was. There was only about two or three consulates in the whole country of Germany. And we were -- more papers with more -- check if we were healthy enough to come to the United States and work and get started.

CW:Well, I want to ask you a little bit more -- go back a little bit to before. I know you were young, but can you describe what was the work of the cattle business? What was a typical day of work for your father?

FD:Oh, he would have to go to where the farmers were. It would take an hour or more, probably more than that, just to get there. He had a car -- he had a Ford 18:00-- a little Ford. Made in Europe -- in Germany. So we went -- I don't know whatever happened to that car. I think he sold it for whatever he could get. He brought one over here to -- towards -- well, he got as far as New York -- from Germany. Not through the ocean. (laughs) But he went by -- we got out of there.

CW:So he would go to the neighboring farm in the mornings?

FD:Well, it was quite a ways away. It was -- took more than an hour, probably more -- sometimes two or three hours. Sometimes he would go by train part of the way -- most of the way. Sometimes he would drive. He still was able to drive. 19:00They soon changed the law so that Jewish people couldn't even drive anymore. And that means he couldn't work.

CW:And then what did he do -- what was he doing at the farms? What was the meeting?

FD:Well, he would raise sugar beets. And he'd use the sugar beets -- he had land surrounding the village that was his. And so he would take these sugar beets and feed them to the cows. And they had sort of a wheel that would cut those sugar beets, and the cows would eat that. And they did very well on that. And they liked it, too.

CW:Did you ever go with him on these -- you know, out to the farm or --

FD:I think that I have, maybe a couple of times. They left real early in the 20:00morning. They went to the market, too. There's a cattle market on Fridays -- Friday mornings. So he went to that one.

CW:Where was that?

FD:That was -- called Koblenz. It's a big city -- good-sized city -- on the Rhine River. No, actually, it's where the Rhine and the Moselle come together. That's where that farm market was. He would go there and he'd have a truck that would drive him -- well, the truck would take the cattle, and my father came by car afterwards. And it was always very foggy early in the morning -- maybe because of the river. It was extremely foggy. I remember that.

CW:What kind of cows were these? What did they --

FD:Well, these were -- the way I recall -- cows that produce milk. They would utilize 'em for milk. And the farmers would buy 'em for that purpose. He had horses, too, that he would -- at a different cattle market. They specialize in only horses. At that time, they were much in use. And tractors were not in use -- or very little. Very little. Maybe great, big farmers, but not too many. Mostly their cattle. And the cows would do the same -- what horses do here. They didn't -- they had 'em trained so they would use the horses -- and cows. Or steers -- male --

CW:Did you have any steers?

FD:We had some, yes. We had some cows that gave milk, too -- female cows.

CW:And what did you think about all the cows as a kid? Did you like them? Did you like the animals?

FD:I liked 'em, yeah. Yeah, I liked 'em.

CW:Who were your friends growing up?

FD:Well, there was a Jewish boy there who was near my age. I think he was a tiny bit younger, but not much. And I would play with him. There was a neighbor that I played with once in a while -- not Jewish. And things got worse and worse. 23:00They would always pick on me, and the teacher didn't care -- he was a Nazi himself. Although there was one teacher I had who was from Austria. And he was a high official in the Austrian hierarchy -- for those days. This man was a -- and he had run away from the Austrian area because he was -- you know, he was -- well, you know, the Germans overran Austria. You remember that? Yeah. So --

CW:So was he more sympathetic, or was he also --

FD:No, he was --

CW:Not.

FD:-- [UNCLEAR] Nazi.

CW:Or he was.

FD:But I remember when he left -- after the annexation of Austria, he went right back to Austria. And I remember he shook my hand when he left. And I remember that. That was amazing. Those are a few of the memories that I have. I know he said goodbye to me. I can still see that. In here. (laughs)

CW:Yeah. (laughs) What language did you grow up with?

FD:German. Yep.

CW:Did you hear any other languages?

FD:No.

CW:Did you hear Hebrew at all? Like, at the --

FD:No.

CW:-- synagogue?

FD:No. No.

CW:No? No.

FD:No, it was all -- just in German.

CW:Do you remember any of the holidays -- the Jewish holidays -- growing up? Did 25:00you have a favorite one?

FD:No, I don't remember any particular one. I remember they had some -- I'm sure that we maybe didn't go to school on those days, but I can't recall. But the High Holidays we did.

CW:So, when you say that things got worse as -- during your -- of course, you were growing up in the '30s, so how did you notice this as a kid? What were the things you noticed?

FD:Well, they would turn the screws a little bit tighter. They'd be picking on 26:00me all the time. I'd come home crying. I mean, they'd just pounce on me. There was one time -- my father asked me to get some -- I think either the cows or a horse, I can't recall -- might have been a couple of horses from the pasture to bring in to the house -- or in the barn, at least. And I remember that -- and a bunch -- it was on a Sunday. The Nazis would -- they saw me -- these kids -- they were all in some kind of something or other. But they'd come picking on me. And there were droves of them. So me and this friend of mine, we were together 27:00in there. So a neighbor -- a neighboring lady -- not Jewish -- she noticed that, and she went in and diverted those -- she was a grown woman, and these were boys maybe in their -- ten, twelve years old, something like that -- about the same age as myself or older. Yeah. Or even a little older. And she diverted them enough to get me home -- with the horses.

CW:Do you want a glass of water or a coffee or something?

FD:No.

CW:You're okay?

FD:I'm okay. (coughs)

CW:Okay. When you were a kid, what did you think about being Jewish? What was 28:00your attitude towards it?

FD:Yeah. I can't recall. There was nothing but trouble for -- things got worse and worse. Well, on that November night, then we stayed overnight at this -- it was an inn. And just like anywhere else, these people were already drinking there -- like they do here, too -- early, and they have one for the road -- that's what they did there, also.

CW:Yeah. Can you describe before -- I want to talk a little bit about how you came to the U.S., but before that, I want to know a little more about the pastures and the -- you mentioned that there's the manure pile right by the 29:00house. Can you tell --

FD:Right -- right next to the house.

CW:So what was the purpose of that, and how did that fit into the family business?

FD:Well, they would utilize those -- the manure -- and we had a wagon that would disperse the manure. It would go around and -- just a little wagon. I mean, not little, but not huge. And they would take it to the pasture and utilize it for manure -- the grass would actually grow better having that nurture it. And the urine the same way. I can still picture that too -- the -- that leftovers.

CW:And other than your father, who were the other people who were in this business in the town -- of the cattle business?

FD:Yeah. I think there must have been five or six cattle dealers, maybe -- pretty near. And they would go out wherever -- they had been with these farmers for many years. And they would --

CW:Was it a particularly Jewish business there?

FD:No. There were others, too. But a lot of Jewish people were in that business. Especially in my family. My father, my uncle, both grandfathers were in that 31:00business. So it was -- quite a few Jewish people there -- in the cattle business. Not so many farmers that dealt with horses. Not in my area. There were, but not around there.

CW:And did you grow up knowing your grandparents or great-grandparents?

FD:Did I know them?

CW:Yeah.

FD:Yes, I did. Except that -- well, my one grandfather, my mother's father -- I was about maybe two years old at the most. And my other grandfather, I was a little bit older. They died early -- the men. Women, too. 'Cause there were no antibiotics and no real medicines. They did what they could -- the medical 32:00doctors. So they --

CW:So you had a lot of family in the town?

FD:Well, I had an uncle. And my grand-- both grandmothers. They didn't get killed -- my grandmothers. They would have, but they died before that. But they got the humiliation of having their windows thrown in all the time -- during the night.

CW:How religious was your family in terms of observance?

FD:Yeah. They were not so observant. But they did obey the holidays. And they 33:00would go on Friday night or Saturday morning to services. They had a big temple -- or synagogue, so to speak. And they tried -- I think they went very often to the service -- on Friday night or Saturday. And on the very High Holidays.

CW:And what was the service like? Do you remember any music or anything particularly about the services?

FD:Well, they didn't have a -- that I can remember, at least -- they didn't have a piano or whatever the instrument they might have. But they observed those holidays and did what they could. And of course, it wasn't far from where we 34:00lived to that synagogue, and so they were there -- walking. It was only a short distance. And they would take me with them -- and my sister, too -- very often. It was only a short walk.

CW:I'm curious -- did you ever have contact or know anything about Jews from Eastern Europe? Did you ever talk about that or -- no one came through your little town or anything?

FD:I think they did. I think they may have. They were peddlers. And they would single out the Jewish families. They were poor, too. But they were even more poor -- these people from Eastern Europe. Yeah, they would come through there. I 35:00can remember that.

CW:Yeah, what do you remember?

FD:I can remember them coming by, and my father giving what he could -- what small amount of money that he could. Or even cloth-- food. To give to those people. Yes. I remember that.

CW:What did you think about them, coming from, you know --

FD:No, I didn't have any -- it's just part of life that -- and -- yeah, they came through there. Walking or maybe having a little car -- mostly. They did come through there.

CW:And they probably spoke Yiddish?

FD:They probably spoke Yiddish.

CW:Yeah.

FD:My father or mother didn't know how to speak Yiddish. That's a mark.

CW:(laughs) And you said you didn't hear any Hebrew either?

FD:There was some Hebrew spoken, but very little. But -- even between the farmer-- between the cattle dealers.

CW:They spoke Hebrew?

FD:Well, they used a lot of Hebrew words.

CW:Huh. Do you remember any of them?

FD:No.

CW:That was particular to the cattle dealers, that was --

FD:Yeah. They had a language of their own. (laughs) That's right. They maybe could -- they knew how to talk to each other. And the farmers would learn that, too. They were very smart.

CW:Are there any stories or anything that you know from -- that were passed down in your family about your family history?

FD:No. Not that I know of. There probably -- I'm sure there are -- or there 37:00were. But I wouldn't remember any of that.

CW:Yeah. Is there anything else that you, sort of looking back, think is particularly interesting about that town that you grew up in and your life there?

FD:Yeah. Well, it was made up of little farmers that had maybe a couple of acres of land on this side of town and another and so forth -- surrounding the village. And they eked out a living. They weren't rich. They weren't real poor, but they weren't rich -- or wealthy.

CW:When you think back, then, what values or sort of ideas about being Jewish do 38:00you think your parents, grandparents were trying to pass on to you?

FD:Well, I don't know how to answer that exactly. I suppose they would try to teach 'em to be honest and do the best you can in school and so forth.

CW:And did you have any Jewish education? Did you have a Jewish school there?

FD:Yeah. In the afternoon, we -- there was a cantor, sorta, who led the services. He was being paid by the congregation -- what little there was left of it. They were beginning to -- those that could -- but unfortunately, not 39:00everybody was lucky enough like my father, that had a sister in Missouri -- here.

CW:Right. So in that Jewish school, did you learn -- was it like a heder [traditional religious school]? Did you learn --

FD:No. I --

CW:-- biblical stuff or --

FD:We did.

CW:You did?

FD:Well, a smattering of that. Yes. We had that.

CW:You learned the prayers and --

FD:Right. And the history.

CW:Interesting. Well, can you tell me about the journey from -- you know, you've said you had to go to Stuttgart first to get the papers.

FD:Yeah. All in the same month, I think. We went to Stuttgart. And then we went back -- we never -- I never went back to that town -- after that ninth of 40:00November. I just left it. We went to Cologne, where we had some relatives. And they luckily weren't affected by this -- at least they -- their apartment house -- maybe they wouldn't let 'em in. Whatever it was, they didn't bother that family. They were cousins of my mother. And so we went there and we were able -- they allowed us to stay overnight on the floor. But that was fine. Yeah, they got out. And we stayed in Cologne and rented a little -- just a bedroom is all. But at least it was a place to stay. And we weren't bothered on the ninth of November.

CW:And then from there, how -- so you waited and were able to get your father out of Dachau?

FD:Well, my mother did. She went to the Gestapo in Koblenz and showed 'em the papers that he -- he was on the list for a certain date to come to this country. So we bought tickets. But for -- from a ship called the Manhattan, which is an American ship.

CW:So where did you -- how did you get to the ship and --

FD:By train. That was still allowed. And -- I mean, no problem. And my uncle -- my father's brother -- he took us to the ship to say goodbye. And that's the last we saw of him. The last. He -- well, things got worse and worse. But they 42:00didn't start killing people until -- for the most part -- until September the 1st, 1939. That was when the war started.

CW:What do you remember about the journey on the ship?

FD:Well, I remember gettin' sick.

CW:(laughs)

FD:A smattering. Not really very much. But vomiting and nausea. But they were all very happy as that ship started to leave the -- it was in the evening when it took off -- set sail. And we made one stop in Marseilles, in France. I think 43:00that was the only stop that they made. They took on some passenger or some food or whatever.

CW:And this was in the winter?

FD:This was in January. In the winter.

CW:And it took a while to get --

FD:Oh, it took about ten days at that time. And they didn't go so fast.

CW:And what do you remember about arriving? What port did you come into? New York?

FD:New York. When we got to New York, there were a lot of people that were at the boat waiting for us to say hello. They were fellow refugees, so to speak. They knew my father, mostly -- through his work. And a certain number of real 44:00lucky people -- not because of us, but -- they had, maybe, relatives who provided those papers for them. But they came to the boat to visit us.

CW:What do you remember about New York? What did you think?

FD:Overwhelming. All those people. And all the stores and the big buildings. For a little -- I was twelve years old -- I'd just turned twelve then.

CW:And then you went to --

FD:And then we went first to Milwaukee -- by train. We stayed in -- with a family -- a good friend -- at that time -- went to -- stayed at their apartment. 45:00I think we all slept together in the same bed there. I don't know. But we visited with them for a couple of days, and then we went on to Milwaukee and stayed with another family -- they were neighbors right across the street from us. We stayed a couple of days. And then came the big voyage to --

CW:Kansas City or --

FD:To Kansas -- well, after Milwaukee -- about three or four days, and then on to Kansas City. He had a sister there. And other relatives that had come from Germany -- not just the sister. But the sister was the primary relative. And we went to the railroad station. It was a beautiful railroad station, I remember 46:00that -- in Kansas City. So they -- all these relatives -- cousins. And in Kansas City they were waiting for us. That I can remember. By that -- I was twelve years old.

CW:And then you set up a farm there? You were --

FD:No.

CW:What happened with the family?

FD:He worked here and he worked there -- getting a job. He got a job on a farm. And then -- the man didn't have enough work. He laid him off. It was kinda hard. That farm was close to Kansas City, Missouri, so he luckily found a job there. And then he found a job in a -- Kansas City was sort of a manufacturing place 47:00where the -- ladies' clothing. And so there was -- they turned the clothing inside out -- I remember him telling me -- or outside in. And it was sort of like an assembly line. Mostly Italian women, he told me, that worked in that factory. So it was --

CW:What did you think of Kansas City? What was it like for you to be there?

FD:It was really nice. Yeah. It still is.

CW:And you learned English pretty quickly?

FD:Not so quickly, no. Not so quickly. They put me into the -- I couldn't speak any English at first. My aunt took me to the school and they put me in the 48:00second grade -- second. But that summer, some lady who was a teacher -- had been a teacher -- she had just retired -- a married woman -- and she taught me. Every day I'd go there during the week with a streetcar. And she taught me English. And by that fall, I had learned quite a bit. And that was a big help. I still remember her name, but it's a long time ago.

CW:What was her name?

FD:Her name -- Mrs. Fox. She lived in a nice area of Kansas City. They called it the "country club area." And so luckily, she took me under her wing, or so to speak. And I went to see her every morning during the week. And a couple hours, 49:00she taught me English.

CW:And what neighborhood did you live in?

FD:I lived in a -- it was a mixed neighborhood. I remember some Syrian -- they were -- not -- Arabs. They lived there, and we lived real close to them. And there were some Jewish people there. All kinds.

CW:What was the Jewish community like there?

FD:Well, they were just -- people just trying -- they would take any kind of job, just to work -- to be able to make a few dollars. It wasn't much in those days. What is the minimum now? It's up there. But it was kinda tough.

CW:Yeah.

FD: My mother worked cleaning houses. Oh yeah, that's right. Then she got sick. And she had to have her tonsils removed. They did that a lot in those days. She had some trouble.

CW:And did you stay in contact with your family back in Europe? Were you able to communicate?

FD:No, I wasn't. They were killed. They were sent to a concentration camp and "taken care of," they called it.

CW:How did you find out?

FD:After the war. They didn't -- once the war started, the Germans didn't -- they started killing 'em, too. They put 'em in cattle cars with hardly any -- there were no covers over those trains. And they shipped 'em off. And I had an uncle who -- that same uncle -- he was sent to Czechoslovakia in a camp. The place is called Theresienstadt. It was a regular camp. It wasn't supposed to be a killing camp, but they -- how they got around that, they put 'em -- sent 'em to Theresienstadt and kept 'em there a while, and then sent 'em on to Auschwitz. 52:00And from there, they disappeared. I know what happened to them, and so do you. So. We think of that a lot. They had one daughter -- my uncle had just one child. They disappeared. (pause) So. That it?

CW:Well, you -- I wanted to -- you then joined the Air Force, right? After the war?

FD:No. Well, it was still going on a little bit in Japan, but it was coming near an end. Later that summer, they signed an armistice with Japan, too.

CW:And did you want to be in the --

FD:Well, I was eighteen. And they waited, I think, until I was able to -- until school was finished. Yeah. In May, I think, is when I got in.

CW:And what did you think? Did you want to go do that? Or were you not -- how did you feel about it?

FD:No, I was ready to go. I liked it. Just another -- by that time, I was eighteen.

CW:And then I understand you were stationed in Germany?

FD:Yeah. I was stationed in Germany. In Wiesbaden, it's called. Near a bigger city called -- Wiesbaden. Have you been there?

CW:Unh-uh.

FD:No? Well, next time. (laughs)

CW:Yeah. So what was it like at that time? I mean, and for you personally to be going back to Germany?

FD:It was kind of awkward. That's about all I can say. It's just -- it was somewhat difficult. But I went to that little village again, too. And we were there -- it hasn't changed much from then to now. I didn't know anybody. But it was interesting. I remember quite a bit of the immediate neighborhood. And the 55:00whole town isn't too big. But we -- my kids saw it.

CW:When did you go with your kids?

FD:In last August. I think it was August.

CW:What was that like?

FD:It was a little touchy. I mean, it didn't have to be, but it -- you know, I had forgotten a lot, too. And I -- showed where my uncle's house was. And where the boy that I used to play with -- how I -- showed where he lived. He was killed. Oh, yeah. He was just a little younger than myself. Not much. And he and 56:00his mother -- father died -- I think the father died with natural -- not natural, but he hadn't been well -- I don't know what exactly. Maybe the Germans helped him a little bit -- to kill him. So. But I know that there was some German woman in that town, she looked up all those names and mentioned what happened to them. Somebody died, somebody -- or they were killed. Sent to -- some of them they sent to Riga -- that's in Estonia.

CW:Latvia, yeah.

FD:Latvia. Okay. Oh, you did your homework. (laughs)

CW:(laughs)

FD:Anyway, it was in Latvia. But they had sent 'em there on these cattle cars. And then they'd make 'em -- the ditches were dug -- well, I don't know who dug 'em -- just outside of the town in the forest. There're a lot of forests there. And just machine gunned 'em to death.

CW:(pause) How did you meet your wife?

FD:My wife -- oh, yeah. Well, they had sort of get-togethers with a youth group.

CW:Which group? What kind of group?

FD:It was a temple. There was a temple in Chicago -- I think it's called Emanuel, but I -- I think there is a temple by that name. And it was on a Monday 58:00evening or Tuesday evening. Somebody told me -- asked me if I wanted to go along with him to -- there was a bunch of youth. (laughs) And I saw her there and she had sort of an accent that I liked. And we started talking. And I asked to take her home. I had a car, and she didn't. So we got together at night. I took her home. She had a sister living there -- in Chicago, not far away. So that's how we met.

CW:And when you were creating your home, what kind of decisions did you make in terms of what Jewish observance you wanted to have for your family?

FD:Well, we didn't keep kosher or anything like that, at all. And -- no, I -- we had no limits on the -- dietary problems.

CW:So what's important to you about being Jewish? In terms of your own Jewish identity, what's important to you?

FD:Well, I keep the holidays to a certain extent. Not as good as I used to. It seems to get a little less all the time. But we -- I try to. And my children, 60:00they go to -- some of 'em, they used to go to these parochial schools.

CW:Well, you know, I work at the Yiddish Book Center, so --

FD:I didn't know.

CW:Yeah. So I want to ask you a couple questions just about your perspective on Yiddish. You know, you have a son who got into Yiddish. (laughs) How did that happen?

FD:I don't know where he picked that up. That's a question. It's a good question.

CW:But sort of from your perspective, what's the role of Yiddish in Jewish life today?

FD:Oh, I don't think it's -- there's a very small percentage that follow that -- probably in the major cities, such as here, or other places.

CW:In terms of you personally, in terms of language, how has language -- German language, maybe -- English, Hebrew -- influenced your own identity, if at all?

FD:I don't think it's changed it any. And I don't -- I can understand the Yiddish, because -- somewhat. Yes. But it hasn't changed much for me -- anything.

CW:Do you still keep up your German?

FD:Yeah. Well, I can understand most of it when I speak to somebody. Or when I was over there in August, I could speak it. We didn't speak that much. They all speak -- or many speak English. In Germany. A lot of 'em. All over Europe.

CW:Do you think -- going back to this Yiddish thing -- do you think Yiddish has a future?

FD:No. Not really.

CW:Yeah. Well, I have one more question, but I'm curious if there's anything that you -- any other stories or things that you wanted to say -- maybe, if this 63:00interview goes to your grandkids or -- anything you want to say?

FD:No. It's nice to do this. And you enjoy it and I enjoy it, too. And I think [UNCLEAR] what goes -- what transpires in the future. But where he came up with his love of Yiddish, I don't know. Probably he speaks some English, and then Yiddish became easy for him. Do you -- can you converse in it?

CW:Yeah. Yeah.

FD:Yeah?

CW:But in terms of just -- in general, any stories that you want to tell or 64:00things that are important for your family to know about your life?

FD:Well, nothing in particular. I'm just fortunate -- very fortunate -- that I was able to live as long as I have and have what I think is a nice family. So --

CW:I wanted to just ask if you have anything that you've learned over your lifetime that would -- that you could give advice to your future generations?

FD:No. Just -- keep going along as you have and keep on top of things. Which they've done pretty well. They have nice children and a nice family. That's 65:00about the best you can do. A little extra money would help. (laughs) But that's all.

CW:Yeah. Anything about being Jewish that you would want to advise them?

FD:No.

CW:Well, thank you very much.

FD:Oh, you're welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]