INGRID ORAL HISTORY

EMMA MORGENSTERN: This is Emma Morgenstern, and today is October 17th, 2010. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Ingrid, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Ingrid, do I have your permission to record this interview?

INGRID: Yes, you do.

EM:Thank you. Okay. So, can you tell me about your background -- where you grew up?

I:Okay. I was born in a town -- a city -- called Eschwege, Germany. And my mother was born there. And my father was born in a small village called 1:00Diemerode. And I don't know how they met, but they met and married. And I was born nine months later, in 1929. And I never knew my father's parents. They were dead, of natural causes, before I was born. But my mother's parents -- they were living, and my grandfather was the khazn [synagogue cantor] in Eschwege, in the synagogue. And my mother was a kindergarten teacher, and I feel it was kind of unusual -- she went away to school to become a kindergarten teacher, to another city. I mean, of course, I didn't know -- this was before I was born. (coughs) Excuse me. And I grew up a very normal childhood, I suppose. And I went to a 2:00Jewish school -- not Yiddish, but Jewish elementary school. And most of the Jewish children in Eschwege did, until, of course, Hitler said, "No more." And I cannot remember a day sitting in the school, as of now. I know I went there. In fact, I remember the day my mother took me to register for me for the school, but I cannot for the world remember a day sitting in that classroom. And I went four years to that school, until we couldn't anymore. And I had a very nice life. My parents were sort of middle-class people. And we had a nice place to live. We didn't own; we rented. And I had relatives in Eschwege -- my mother's 3:00sister, who lived there with her family. And my mother had a brother who lived in Hanover and got married, and he had lost a leg in World War I. And that didn't help him, anyway, either, with Hitler -- which he thought it would. And I grew up -- and there were some funny things that happened on Passover. We had an Orthodox -- they weren't absolutely super-duper, but we were Orthodox -- we kept kosher and we celebrated all the holidays. My mother did not wear a sheitel [traditional women's head covering], which my aunt did -- nor did my grandma. And some funny things went -- on Passover -- we had a maid, a non-Jewish maid 4:00who -- on Passover, my parents went to synagogue, and afterwards, when they came home and I told my mother -- I don't remember the name of my maid, but she took me to have ice cream. "Oh my God!" my mother said. "On Pesach?" And she said, "Well, we have to speak to uncle Baruch" -- this was my mother's brother-in-law -- because he was the authority. And so, I was scared out of my wits, because she says, "I hope he doesn't make you wash your mouth out with soap." So, that was the episode of my -- one of my upbringing. And it was kind of nice. My grandparents lived in the community center next to the synagogue in Eschwege, at Schultstraße 3. And that was that.

EM:And so, did you have siblings?

I:No. I'm an only child.

EM:Okay. And I saw that your town was affected by Kristallnacht. Is that right?

I:Our town was, the city of Eschwege was -- but our house was not touched, for some strange reason. And some very wealthy people in Eschwege sent their child to our house. I don't know if somebody told them or something. Their house was destroyed -- this child's parents' house -- but ours wasn't. And I watched out the window, Kristallnacht. And our next-door neighbor's easy chair was thrown out the window; I witnessed that. And I think even before that, I used to say on Passover -- "L'shona habo-- b'yerushalayim [Next year in Jerusalem]," you say -- 6:00I used to say, "L'shona habo'a, b'new york [Next year in New York]," because that was where I wanted to live. Not in America -- in New York. No matter how I'd get there. And my mother's sister and her family immigrated in 1938. And my mother didn't want to let me go then. I was eight years old. And these are little episodes that come to mind.

EM:Okay. And how did you feel being a Jew in Germany as a child?

I:Fearful. As young as I was, I was so s-- I knew I couldn't stay there -- and meaning me. I don't know if my parents had the option at that time to leave, because my grandparents, who were elderly, were living -- they were living in 7:00our house in the first apartment. Then we moved, for some reason, and they lived with us there. And my mother always felt, Oh, my grandfather would have a pension, so they would always be able to eat. And well, my grandmother died before deportation -- while -- no, I wasn't there anymore. She died of natural causes; she had cancer or something. But my grandfather -- before they were going to be deported, he committed suicide. He was probably in his seventies then.

EM:And so, this is after you had already left?

I:Yes.

EM:Okay. And so, can you tell me the story of how you left?

I:Well, my mother found a kindertransport -- children's transport -- to England. 8:00And I was signed up, but they were full up and they couldn't take me. And she found that -- and I think she went to school -- in Kassel, where she went to school for her kindergarten teacher education -- Eva Warburg, I believe. It's very sketchy in my mind. And they were very well-to-do: philanthropists, bankers, whatever. And they had connections in Sweden. And she got me a spot to go on a children's transport to Sweden. And I left Germany -- my parents took me to Berlin, put me on the train to Sweden, to Stockholm -- where I was met by a family, Jewish family. And I lived with them till 1946, when I went to America.

EM:And do you remember the day you left?

I:Yes. Just that. I don't remember getting on the train in Eschwege. I remember being on the train in Berlin. Nothing else. It's blocked out, like I shouldn't remember. It's gone. And I remember -- I was very little -- I'm still not a giant, I'm still short. But in those days, I was much -- small compared to other kids my age when I was nine. And my coat hung in the entranceway. And they said, Oh, lilla Ingrid -- that's -- in Swedish, it's "little Ingrid." And I was kind of upset that they would do that -- say that.

EM:So, what was the family like that you lived with in Sweden?

I:Obviously, they had a heart of gold. But there were times when I was very 10:00upset. I missed my mother and father. And a few times when I was naughty -- naturally, I was a kid; I would be naughty. If you're not good, we'll send you back. And you realize what that means -- where am I gonna go? I can't go back to Germany. I knew that. But they kept me. And they supposedly -- it -- for a child to appreciate what they did is too enormous for words. They saved my life. I might have been able to be sent somewhere else and be in some kind of orphanage or whatever. But they gave me a life. They had three children themselves. One was sixteen years older than me, and one was eight years older, and one was my age. And that's the reason I came there, because she had -- I think she had 11:00scarlet fever, and the parents said to her, If you get better from this scarlet fever, we will get you a sister. Because her sister was eight years older. There was no relationship, really. And that's how I got there. And we got along fine. And she was a real spoiled brat. I think they were quite well-to-do, and if they weren't, they spent money like they were well-to-do. And she -- well, I don't know, that's skipping ahead. I went to school -- public school -- in Stockholm. And I learned Swedish in three months, about -- and I was in a regular classroom. (coughs) Excuse me. And again, I cannot think of a single thing that I learned in that school. But obviously, I learned to read and write Swedish. My 12:00math -- I'm not mathematician, but I learned math enough, you know? And I really -- I did not have much of an education -- except the school of hard knocks, or, you know, to learn what's around you. And that can be very valuable, maybe more so than some book learning. I went to Hebrew school. As I say, I had to go to Hebrew school in Stockholm, because otherwise I had to go to Christian classes in the public school. And again, that was nothing. And eventually, when I was fifteen, I was confirmed. Because it was a Reform kind of -- the Mosaiska Församlingen, it's called -- that was the Jewish community center. And they were very nice to me. They were very good to me. We spent the summer in the country. And as I got older, I got fed up being in that place -- you know, there 13:00was nothing for me. And they would let me go into Stockholm to stay in the apartment by myself. I might have been seventeen, sixteen. And I found it -- the brother had sleeping sickness -- the one that was sixteen years older. There were things that I was uncomfortable with in my family. That my morals as a child -- that what I was taught -- and of course, as you get older, you learn what's right and wrong, too, just by being around. And I just was ready to go.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

EM:So, you were talking about Sweden and the family that you grew up with.

I:Right. They included me in their life. We spent summers in the country. Funny -- it was really a one-bedroom apartment upstairs in a house they rented every year. And there we had a maid. And their two daughters were still home then -- they weren't married when I first came there -- and myself and the parents. And we slept around in the living room, the daughter slept in the parents' bedroom -- a strange kind of thing. And the maid slept in the entrance foyer. There was no bathroom in that house. (laughs) In Stockholm, we had a bathroom, but in that -- and you had to cross up the hill to go to a bathroom, sort of -- a wooden plank with a barrel underneath. (laughs) It was not something you enjoyed doing, 15:00at night, especially. And in the city, when they included me, all their social things -- they were kind of involved in the community, and they had parties at the Grand Hotel, and they would have a dress made for me -- a gown. And they were very good to me. But I just felt uncomfortable, maybe because of that. How can you keep taking that? And eventually, my relatives in New York -- my mother's sister -- and at this time, my father's sister was also living -- they had come to America before, in 1938. And my mother's brother -- he went to Cuba 16:00from Germany, and eventually ended up in New York. That's the only place he could go. And they all gave me an affidavit, and I was able to come to America. And I went on the Gripsholm -- the Swedish American ship -- very nice. And Greta Garbo was on the ship, and the sculptor, [de Milles?], was on the ship, and the Gish sisters -- they were actresses, I guess from the silent pictures, I don't know. Anyway, and they all met me in New York, my relatives. And I went to their house. And they lived in Washington Heights -- the aunt, my mother's sister, whom I lived with. And they had a daughter, who was still home. My aunt had three daughters, and this one was still living at home. And I lived in 17:00Washington Heights, in New York. And then, by the time my last cousin -- I wasn't married -- she got married -- she was looked upon as being not a hundred percent. At birth or somewhere along that way, she had been -- some of her fingers were cut off. So, I don't know how that happened, and I never asked. And after about a year, my aunt and uncle bought a house in the Bronx, in New York, and we moved over to the Bronx. And speaking -- being October, every year, my uncle, who was very Orthodox -- he built a sukkah in the backyard. And it was high up -- from Jerome Avenue in the Bronx. And every year, he built a sukkah, 18:00and every year it blew down to Jerome Avenue, so he couldn't eat in the sukkah anymore. (laughs) It never failed. And then, we had friends. And I was working. I went to some English classes at George Washington High School -- which I don't know how much they contributed to my learning, but I went. And I also took steno and typing, which wasn't my favorite thing. And I got a job. My first job was in a wigmaking -- they all wear sheitels, my aunt and all of the married daughters and all. And she got me a job there to sew the foundation of the wigs, which lasted two weeks; I couldn't take it anymore. And then, I got another job in a button factory, which I lasted another two weeks. (laughs) And then, I got a job 19:00-- and I don't remember how I got it, but I got a job in an office -- an import-export office. And I worked there from 1949 -- or maybe '48. It started out -- they had an office on East Eleventh Street. I worked there for some time, and they closed that, and I went uptown to Thirty-Seventh Street to their office, and worked as a bookkeeper assistant, I guess. I was no CPA -- I wasn't educated for that. But I worked there. And it was very nice. And I had coworkers -- one of the women had a friend, and she came one day to ask if I would like to go on a blind date. It was a distant cousin -- it was of some relationship -- he 20:00had come over from England, and he has a friend. She was only friendly with him -- there was no boyfriend-girlfriend between this fellow and her. And then, he has a friend, and maybe I would like to meet him. So, I said, "Okay." And we made a date. I think it was a Thursday -- I think it was July 13th, 1950 when we met. We went out. I bought a new dress, a silk dress. I still have it. A print, it was absolutely gorgeous. And we went out. They knew I was kosher in those days, and they went to a place where I could just have pancakes on Park Avenue 21:00in Manhattan. And we ate there and then we went to the Roxy movie theater, it's all gone. And we saw a movie and a stage show. I don't remember what the movie was -- maybe my husband remembers, I don't know. And then he said he was gonna call me again, took me home. And I don't remember going home -- that he took me home to the Bronx -- I don't remember that. And he did call me again. And the rest is history. We've been married for fifty-nine years on this coming November 12th. So, we dated for a while and we got engaged. And he was drafted into the Korean War. And before -- he was in the South being trained and then he came home -- he was gonna be sent overseas to Korea, and we decided to get married. 22:00But mainly so that I could collect some money to -- you know, for -- as a wife. And he went to Korea. And we got married in New York, a very little wedding at the Milbury [sic] Hotel. It's still there. For a while there, it became a welfare hotel, but I think it's been -- it's one of those boutique hotels again on the West Side. Anyway, it was a kosher caterer that was there. And we had twenty people. And I paid for it, or Ray and I both paid for it ourselves. And we had a dinner for twenty people: my relatives, my aunts and uncles. My cousins came for the ceremony, which was in a little room -- you know, some reverend did it -- the ceremony. And that was it. And he went overseas till 1951, when he 23:00came home. No, '53 -- 1953 he came home in February. And we then -- before he came home, I rented an apartment in Queens. And that was -- it was hard. It was still post-World War II; it was hard to get apartments. And I put an ad in the paper and I got one answer, and that's the place. And it was a one-bedroom apartment. And we lived there until our daughter Susan was born, and then we got another two-bedroom apartment in the same building. And we lived there until I had our son Jeffrey. And we felt we needed to buy a house or get a bigger apartment, so we looked at a house on Long Island. And I said, Unh-uh. I'm not 24:00gonna live on Long Island. I -- (laughs) there was a radio show called "Backstage Wife," and that's how I saw myself -- if I lived on Long Island, I'll be a backstage wife, (laughs) and I didn't want that. And also, I'd have to drive. And even before the kids were born, we'd go into Manhattan -- we had the subway, we had the bus. And Raymond's parents lived in Queens, too. And well, we decided, We don't want to live on Long Island. And we got a three-bedroom apartment with the same landlord in a different building, with two bathrooms -- a very nice apartment. And that's where Susan and Jeffrey grew up.

EM:So, what was it like being a Jewish mother in New York at that time?

I:No problem. I mean, there were so many of us, you know? (laughs) And I mean, I 25:00didn't necessarily only hang around with Jewish people. I'll tell you this: I didn't pal around with too many locals. Because Raymond was a salesman, and he had a lot of clients that we had to entertain at home and outside, and we became friends with a lot of these people socially, so I didn't have that much time to pal around with locals. We just didn't. A few. And of course, Susan and Jeffrey both went to Hebrew school, and I knew some people from there. I didn't hang around with too many of them -- one or two of them. And it was not a difficult life -- in New York, as a Jew.

EM:And you mentioned before that when you were in Germany, you'd always wanted to go to New York. So, how did New York live up to your expectations?

I:Just what I thought. I was very pleased I went to New York.

EM:And what about New York?

I:I thought it was the most fascinating place to be in. And every time somebody left New York -- Oh, I can't take it anymore, I've got to go -- and there've been ups and downs in New York City -- you know, problems financially, part of the city -- no. I felt New York's the only place to be, and anybody who left was a traitor. I used to tell myself those things. And we had a very nice life. We had fun. There was nothing we didn't do that you could do -- in New York City, 27:00and around the city. And so, we did a lot of traveling. Well, our daughter Susan was living in California, and so we'd go out there and visit her. And Jeffrey went to school in Massachusetts, so we'd come up here. And eventually, Susan moved to Massachusetts with Alan, and we'd come up and visit. And Jeffrey settled -- lived in Massachusetts. When the kids were little, we would go traveling up north to Montreal, to Toronto, to Florida, because my husband had an uncle who lived in Florida, so we'd visit him. And we had a nice life. And we 28:00traveled some in America, Ray and I. I never flew until 1973, when Jeffrey was bar mitzvah. We had a very small bar mitzvah, at seven o'clock in the morning on a Thursday, when you take out the Torah. And we said, We're gonna spend the money on -- we're taking you to London and Paris. Which we did. And that was my first flying experience. And I'm sitting there with white knuckles on the plane, but anyway, it turned out okay. And after they were bigger, like, in their late teens, Ray and I started traveling a good bit. We went to Italy. Our son Jeffrey was in England to attend a bar mitzvah of family -- we didn't want to go, but he 29:00was gonna go to the continent of Europe, so he went to the bar mitzvah, and from there, he went with the trains -- what do they call them when you have a ticket and you go all over the -- there's a name for it -- and he went onto the continent of Europe. And he went to my hometown, Eschwege. And I had given him all sorts of information: where I used to live, the addresses, and he went. And, oh yes, he also went to France, and his backpack was stolen in Marseilles, and I had to get him new -- his traveler's checks replaced -- and all kinds of stuff that was gone. So, once he had been in Germany -- I always said I would never go to Germany again, but once he had been in Germany, my appetite was whet. Because 30:00once, we were traveling from Switzerland -- from Zurich -- on a train. We had flown to Zurich, gone all over Switzerland -- you know, see the sights. We took a train to Vienna, Austria. And on the way to Vienna, the train went into Germany -- like, a couple of stops -- and the conductor comes out, and I went ballistic. I couldn't take it. And I had to show my passport, in which it said I was born in Germany -- because I wouldn't speak German on the train, and there were these old biddies on the train speaking German, and I could just see them as good Nazi ladies. But I made it. We went to Innsbruck, we went to Salzburg, and ended up in Vienna, had a very nice time. So, I refer to that, because then, 31:00when Jeffrey had been in my hometown, "Okay," I said. "Let's go." So, we went on another trip. We flew to Munich and went all over there, and then we rented a car and drove up toward Eschwege. And on the way, I went to where my grandfather, the cantor, lived, or was born, rather. And it was still a dirt village -- nothing paved or anything. And I get out of the car, and there's a woman with a little child whom I asked in German, "Where is the jüdischer Friedhof -- the Jewish cemetery?" And she said, "Der Juden Friedhof ist dort" -- "the Jewish cemetery" -- not Jewish -- "the Jew cemetery" -- "der Juden" -- you 32:00know, it was mean. You can say it two ways. And it's over there. And I ran down like a maniac -- in those days I could still run -- an overgrown field I ran through to get to the cemetery. And I saw -- it wasn't my grandfather, I knew he wasn't buried there -- but he had a cousin with the same name, and I saw these names there. And I got so excited; it's like a family connection, even though I had never met those people who were in that cemetery. And then, we left there. I don't think we ever went into that dirt village. Because it wouldn't mean any-- I didn't know -- I had been there once with my mother when I was very young. My great-grandma, my grandfather's mother, lived to 102, and my mother took me to 33:00visit her. And I was scared stiff of her, a little old lady sitting there. And she got old on coffee, I was told -- not on food. And so, that was my first experience in Diemerode, where my grandpa was born. Then, we went on to where my father was born in Diemerode. And they had a general store there, my father's parents. And I remember that, because I used to go and visit there. My mother used to bring me -- I guess -- I mean, I don't know how I got there -- there had to be a train involved. And I used to sleep in the upstairs room. And they scared me; If you're not good, if you start getting up and coming out, we'll put the cats in the room. And that's why I never liked pets -- I never liked animals. I was scared. That was bad, you know? If you're bad, you're gonna get a 34:00cat on you. What we say to children is so difficult for a child to absorb, and we don't think about it as adults. You've got to think of everything you say -- how it affects a child forever. You can't give me a cat to put on my lap. And I know they won't eat me up, but it's just one of those things. And then, we've gone back to Germany in the meantime. We were already in Sweden. Oh, no -- we're talking about traveling back to Germany -- right. And then, leaving Dieme-- we just went into the village to look around. We went up to the cemetery, and I saw the grave of my father's father and mother, and we took pictures of it. And 35:00then, we went on to Eschwege. And we were just mainly -- I showed my husband where I had lived -- the first place. And they let me come in. It was now an office of some organization. And I showed him around -- what that was. And then, I took him to the next apartment we lived in, which was a hardware store office. And they were nice; they let me come up and look. And that was my Eschwege experience. We stayed in Eschwege -- somewhere, in some -- and nobody I saw in Eschwege had been there. We were not here during the war. I don't know where they were -- entombed in some wall somewhere? Nobody did what happened. And it was a very strange experience to be in Eschwege. And I showed my husband where 36:00my aunt lived, and all these people, you know. And the synagogue -- oh, I had an experience in the synagogue, too. They showed me around. And there was a mikvah [pool for ritual immersion] attached to the community center by the synagogue, and that was paved over. And I took a picture -- it showed it, you know. And my memories of Eschwege and the synagogue -- I had a great involvement when I was a little girl, because of my grandpa being the cantor. And I guess I had friends at the synagogue. I'm jumping around, but these things come to mind as I go along.

EM:Do you ever remember your grandfather in the synagogue? Like, singing or --

I:No. I can't say, Oh, I remember him singing this or that. No. But I knew he did. And I do remember my father sang in the choir. And I see myself standing there with him. That's it. I remember where our seats were in the synagogue -- you had assigned seats. But that's it.

EM:And were there a lot of Jews in that town?

I:Yeah, it was a nice, big congregation, a good-sized congregation. The synagogue had been destroyed in Kristallnacht -- the innards, not the outside. And eventually, a church bought it or was given it. They made it into a church. And in 1989, the city of Eschwege invited all the earlier residents of Eschwege 38:00-- Jewish people -- to come. And they treated us all to the airfare, hotel, food, everything. And since my husband had been there with me, Susan came with me -- my daughter. And they wanted to have Friday night service at the old synagogue. And they asked the church people to -- no, they wouldn't cover up the cross or anything. So then, another church allowed us to use their community room, and they covered up all of the stuff. And when they heard that, Oh, all right, we'll let you come. Says, No, thank you. But they gave us a walk-through, you know, afterwards. And we had services in that church basement -- or community room. And I've gone to synagogues in Sweden, in America -- nothing. It 39:00doesn't evoke any emotion in me. But that Friday night service was the most meaningful thing. People who had come for this trip to Eschwege and all the ex-- the people who had gotten out and lived. The rabbi's son had lived in Israel during the war, and he was in Eschwege, and he did the service that night. It was the most meaningful thing. I just -- first of all, I couldn't -- I'm not a very emotional people about religion or anything -- I couldn't stop crying. I was sobbing through the whole service. And this non-Jewish woman was sitting with me at the service -- you know, we sort of got friendly on the trip. And I just couldn't stop crying. It was so meaningful to hear that service. And I'd 40:00been to Orthodox and I'd been to Reform and Conservative -- it was like, it doesn't matter. Only that time. And nothing since has made me that emotional.

EM:And why do you think it was so emotional?

I:Because it brought back memories inside me -- my heart. That was real. All the other was like a stage show, you see? Susan often has invited me to go to services there; I go because Susan asks me, not because I get anything out of it. It's so different -- so -- a hundred percent different. I don't know what it is. I keep a kosher home. I travel on Shabbat. I do things -- I eat out. And I 41:00feel very Jewish. But I can't see myself going to a synagogue. When we lived in Jackson Heights, when we belonged to the synagogue -- and I know that these people had no interest in Jewish religion, but the kids had to be bar mitzvah because you did. I asked them -- I said, "How come you belong to the synagogue?" Oh, all our friends do, and maybe our social life is there. So, what is that? It's not a religious experience. It's a social experience. And I find it's superficial. It's not -- it doesn't do anything for me. I don't know if Susan -- I know she belongs; I know your mother goes. I don't know how they feel. I'll have to ask. Because maybe they didn't have this deep background that I had. And 42:00it's all before I was nine years old -- where I got it.

EM:And how do you think your parents felt about religion?

I:Not great. My aunt and uncle were super-duper Orthodox. But my parents were Orthodox -- with a -- not crazy, not overly -- no. We observed all the holidays, and of course, we lived with my grandma and grandpa. And I can't remember a seder in our house, you know, with my grandparents. Oh yes, I do remember -- in the first place where we lived. We had a very long corridor. And of course, being the only child -- the eldest and the youngest -- I had to go that whole long corridor to open the door for the angel -- for elyo'hu-hano'vi [the prophet 43:00Elijah], right? And I hated Passover because of that, because I was so scared to go there. And of course, we didn't have lights on -- you don't turn lights on and off on yontev [holiday]. So, you know, things like that.

EM:And so, when you were raising your kids, how did you decide to raise them in a Jewish way? What was the --

I:Well, my husband is totally unreligious. He's Jewish; he was bar mitzvah -- under protest. (laughs) And he has not -- he doesn't believe. And he sort of -- so I couldn't certainly bring him to a Young Israel -- to an Orthodox synagogue. So, I settled to bring him to a Conservative. And I wanted him to be bar mitzvah. And Susan didn't have to be bat mitzvah, but that was her choice, and 44:00she decided not to. So, in the last year before everybody in her class was bat mitzvah, she dropped out. And then after, she went back to Hebrew high school. And she studied Hebrew in college. And she's very well-versed in Hebrew. So, she didn't want a bat mitzvah. Jeffrey had a bar mitzvah -- as I say, at seven o'clock in the morning. It was a very simple affair. But it was all kosher and legit. And Ray -- he could take it or leave it. And he went along with it. His parents had more -- a superstitious kind of involvement with religion, I think. That's what you had to do, and if you didn't, you'd better.

EM:So, would you say that you feel Jewish in your everyday life?

I:Absolutely.

EM:In what way? In what ways?

I:Just being. I certainly know I'm Jewish. I don't impose my Jewishness or Judaism on anybody else. I don't ask people, "Are you Jewish? Aren't you Jewish?" If it came up, they'll tell me, fine. If not -- and we have a -- there are certain people where I live -- I don't know if they're Jewish or not. I mean, many of them, I know, because they speak to me about it. And certainly a lot of them may not even think we are, because our last name isn't very Jewish -- it's not Jewish at all. And we've always lived that way. We've had Christian friends and Jewish friends, and gotten along equally well with either one of 46:00them. And never had this whole religious thing be a necessary part of our life. And I can't get anything out of sitting in a synagogue, listening to this rabbi telling me -- oh, I had an experience once -- the rabbi where Susan and Jeffrey were going to Hebrew school: he used to tell us, "You can't carry your umbrella on Shabbat, and this you can't do, and that you can't do." And once, we were in a French restaurant in Manhattan near Lincoln Center, and we walk in -- we had some clients that we were gonna have dinner with -- and the rabbi is there. And that was it. I said, "Hello, rabbi. How are you?" They're phony. I don't know 47:00how you feel about your -- obviously, you accept your Judaism and you like it, but is it fostered by your education? Not by your Jewish education, I mean, by your Hebrew school?

EM:Yeah, I mean --

I:You would have been Jewish either way, right?

EM:Yeah.

I:And that's how I feel. I don't need a rabbi to stand there and tell me what I can and cannot do. Because it's a job; it's his job. Maybe I'm too much of a realist, and this is a whole aura of things. And certainly, from my old age -- and seeing the rabbi -- the young woman that's a rabbi -- or young, I guess, I don't know how old she is -- where your mother and Susan -- where they go -- I can't see it. And I certainly can leave it rather than take it. (laughs) Do you 48:00feel -- do you get emotional stuff out of there? When they talk?

EM:Sometimes. We can talk about it later. (laughs)

I:Okay. You don't want to be on record?

EM:Yeah. Yeah -- I mean, we can talk about this later. But -- yeah. So, do you think that has changed over your lifetime -- your relationship to Judaism?

I:No. I mean, I embrace Judaism for what it is. It's an ism. It is a religion. And I don't ever deny it to anybody if somebody asks me -- in fact, if not, then I'll tell 'em that I'm Jewish, you know? And whatever that means to them, I don't know. And there's so much superstition. We have a lot of Catholic friends, and I think half of them do it because they're afraid not to -- all the ritual 49:00stuff. And I certainly like being together with my fam-- that's all that matters now, to be with my family. It doesn't have to be half the world around me. As long as we're together, that's -- that's yontev. That's a real Jewish holiday, when I'm with them. And they make kiddush and they make fun of it or they don't make fun -- they make the real -- you know. And it's a funny thing; Susan likes to do the whole thing. Jeffrey -- he's not married to a Jewish woman, but a very lovely non-Jewish woman who is the most accommodating I've ever seen anybody be. But he loves to make a nice kiddush. He almost gets mad if Susan makes it, you know?

EM:Can you think of any other traditions like that that you have in your family?

I:There probably are, but I (laughs) -- you know, I always tell my husband and he says, "Don't you remember?" And I said, "Look, it's a cassette, and it's filled up." And he'll tell me, "Well, read this and read that." I said, "Raymond, leave me alone. If I put any more in, I can't remember it all." You know, the cassette is filled up, and I'm eighty-one years old, right? And there's no more room to accept -- there are certainly important things I remember. Like, you have to remember your Social Security number. (laughs) And to -- you know? I'd like to know if I can contribute more, but try and evoke my -- you know, to see what -- if you have anything else to ask me.

EM:Okay. Yeah, maybe we'll come back to that if you --

I:And then, I'll go off on tangents.

EM:Yeah, sure. (laughs) Well, actually, I'm curious about your languages growing up. So --

I:Well, it was mainly German in Germany. When I went to Sweden, I had to learn Swedish. The people that I lived with spoke Yiddish with me. And I couldn't speak Yiddish, so I answered in Swedish. And they understood -- you know, no problem. And when I left Sweden, I came to America. I couldn't speak English, so I spoke Yiddish -- but of course, some German, too. I wanted to forget German. So, my relatives in New York -- they spoke German, and I didn't want to. But I was willing to speak Yiddish. And I had never spoken it in Sweden. I just -- it was there. But of course, it's got the relationship to German, and that helped. 52:00But I mean, I don't have much opportunity to speak Yiddish.

EM:How long did you speak it for when you were in New York? Like, how many years?

I:Oh, I didn't -- in three months, I was fluent -- I was pretty fluent in English, just from being. I went to school -- to that high school -- to evening classes. And I learned English. I never went to formal finishing high school or college. And I knew -- and I used to have -- we were taught English in Sweden in school. And I used to play hooky, because I didn't want to learn -- the way they taught in Sweden was the British -- with a British accent, and I knew I was going to go to New York and I wasn't gonna have a British accent. But I married a British man.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

EM:We never got into this, so I'm gonna go back to your childhood again. Can you tell me what happened to your parents?

I:They eventually -- they were taken from our home -- our apartment where we last lived when I was there. And all the Jews were moved into sort of a ghetto area. And I can't tell you what it was like there, but I did correspond with my mother. When I first went to Sweden, she would send me packages with clothing -- like, a pair of stockings. And she would tell me in the letter, "Be sure to mend those stockings. They had a hole in 'em." And when I looked at the stockings, her gold watch was in there. And little things like that. We corresponded. They were able to send me letters. And then, I was able to send them packages. I 54:00don't know if they ever got them or if they were able to eat the stuff, but -- like, canned sardines, nutritious food. And it was sent via Portugal, I think. And they got it, because they would send a card to acknowledge it. Whether the Germans took it from them after, I have no idea. But we were doing that from Sweden. And what else was there?

EM:Just what -- I mean, what happened to them there?

I:Oh. Oh, okay. Then, from Eschwege -- from this ghetto area they were living in -- they were sent to Theresienstadt, where they were -- I think in 1942. And they were there till September, October 1944. And then, they were sent to 55:00Auschwitz. And there is a movie, which -- I think Jeffrey has a copy of it -- where I think I see my mother -- about Theresienstadt -- where I thought I saw my mother in that movie. It doesn't make any difference. It's not gonna bring her back. It's just -- I think Susan and Jeffrey are more interested in that. And, you know. It would be very difficult to establish whether it was really -- I mean, and they made these propaganda movies -- Look how good the Jews have it in Theresienstadt -- and they showed their life there. Just imagine.

EM:And were you in correspondence with them when they were there as well?

I:Yes. Yes. Limited -- very limited. I think -- well, as I say, we'd send them packages. That was in Theresienstadt, I think. And they would send these 56:00postcards. And my mother would say, "Libe Ingrid [Dear Ingrid]," and my father would sign, "Dayn papi [Your dad]" -- you know, he would sign -- and so I would get both their handwriting.

EM:And how did you find out what happened to them?

I:I just presumed, and it's been established. I mean, they -- the Holocaust Museum has the archives there -- and in fact, we were there long ago. I've been a charter member there for -- you know. And there was a book; it wasn't on computers then, when we first went there -- and there was a book where it showed my parents' names and that they were sent to Auschwitz -- I think it was September 1944. They weren't living there long, if at all.

EM:And have you ever visited those places -- Theresienstadt or Auschwitz?

I:No. No, no, no, no, no.

EM:And have you been back to Sweden?

I:Yes. Twice.

EM:Can you tell me about those visits?

I:Yeah. The first time we went, we just went to Sweden. It was nice. I got back together with the people, you know? And, you know what it was? It was such a load on my shoulders: how do you say thank you to people who save your life, right? What can I do for them? I didn't have a million dollars to give them. Or is -- what is it worth? And I felt very torn. Are you paying for dinner when we were out, you know? Very, very strange kind of thing -- to the point where my 58:00correspondence with -- prior to my going there -- I couldn't write anymore. What can I write? It was very strange. And then, we went again to Sweden. And the girl that was my age -- she had married an industrialist in Finland, a very wealthy man, a Jewish guy. And he had passed away in 1969. And she invited me to come to Finland. And we went. And she lived in this huge apartment near the opera. And Ray used to get up in the morning -- he couldn't find us, so he used to, "Where are you?" We had to guide him to come to the kitchen to have 59:00breakfast. And we had a wonderful time. She showed us all -- she had a daughter who had been a communist. Her father was a very wealthy man. And her father -- the family drove into Russia from Finland with a white Mercedes. That's rubbing it in, isn't it? (laughs) Anyway, I don't know what happened; that's what I was told. And it was a very nice reunion. But prior to that, we -- oh, yes. The girl that was my age, we hadn't seen each other all those years. We met in London in 1986. Ray and I had been in Rome, and after Rome, we flew to London, and she was there -- with a friend. And she had a son who was living in London. He was a 60:00currency trader -- and very spoiled -- you know, by the parents. And he lived the life -- like, the daughter was the other way -- sort of a communist -- he was, you know, a big spender. He had a big job, but nothing was ever enough. And that's when we went to Finland to visit her, after that meeting in London -- I mean, on another trip. (sighs) Ask me -- to get me to talk about something else.

EM:Okay. So --

I:Oh, excuse me. We went there to visit her in Finland. And we left on a Sunday 61:00or Monday -- whatever. On Friday, she went to go to the dentist. And we had a wonderful time with her. She made a party; all her friends were there to meet me. And we went home -- I think it was either Sunday or Monday -- on Tuesday, we got a phone call that she's dead. I think she committed suicide. Her son called to tell me. And then, her brother, her sister's son -- called me and said he doesn't think so. It's -- whatever happened. And I never found out. And I wasn't gonna dig. What's the use? None of my business, right?

EM:And you haven't been back since then -- to Sweden?

I:No.

EM:Okay. So, you have grandchildren?

I:Yes.

EM:So, how --

I:Big and small.

EM:(laughs) Can you tell me about your relationship with your grandchildren?

I:I think they were very close. When they were little, they'd come to our house -- now don't forget, I'm eighty-one years old, and I can't do things like I used to. Joel used to come to our house -- Susan's boy -- and would spend the night in our house. And Lauren did, too. But they're grown up and they do their own thing and they do their own life. And it's not a bad relationship, but it's nothing to -- right? There's a generation gap. Like, oh, grandma. And I try not to give advice, because it's not appreciated. And then Jeffrey has the little ones, and they're diff-- that's different, you know? They'll still tell you -- 63:00when we came up -- before Susan and your mom came -- he'd come, "Come on!" And he's decorated his room with yarn -- spider webs all over -- so you can't even walk in without crawling under the spider webs. (laughs) And he wanted me to go up, and I can't run up the steps there.

EM:And how would you -- you said that (laughs) your advice sometimes isn't listened to, but what kinds of advice would you like your --

I:No, I don't. No, I really don't. No. I gave that up a long time ago. It's not appreciated. And they have to -- and you have to learn your own. Yes, if you have little children, you can guide them and tell them, "No, don't do that. That's not nice. That's no good." But not grandchildren. They have a mother and father to teach them whatever they have to know. No.

EM:Okay.

I:It's not -- no big deal.

EM:And so, when did you leave New York City?

I:Well, we bought the apartment in Worcester in 1992. Well, Jeffrey lived in Worcester, and one day we were -- we used to go up Susan all the time, so I said, "Well, let's say in Worcester some time and be with Jeffrey," because he had an apartment there. But we stayed in a hotel. And so, we were reading the local paper, and there had been this auction of the condominium, and we went to look at the apartments. Very nice, but I wasn't going to leave yet. I mean, I was getting ready, because New York City was just too much for me. I couldn't get on the subway, I couldn't get on a bus. Driving to New York City is ridiculous -- you can't park the car anywhere. And going to the theater is 65:00ridiculous, because you've gotta come and go and get the car. And Ray used to be afraid to walk with a wheelchair to where the car was in a bad neighborhood -- on the West Side. So, I'd sit in the wheelchair in front of the theater and be scared out of my wits there while he went and got the car. So, it got to be -- all these things. And once we went there and we had a meal in a restaurant and parking was, like, thirty dollars for an hour and a half or two hours. It got to be more and more ridiculous. Wherever you went, you couldn't park. And as I say, if you can't take the subway and a bus -- I would have been willing I was dead. And so, that's what sort of pushed us -- and I'm not missing it. I have done everything that you can and want to do in New York -- and things you don't want to do, (laughs) I've done them too.

EM:Can you give me an example of some of those things that you've done? (laughs)

I:Seen all the sights, all the monuments, all the houses that so-and-so lived, this famous person. We've been to the opera. We've been to the ballet -- and the ballet at the State Theater, the ballet at the Metropolitan Opera. And we had a subscription to City Opera, City Ballet. And theaters -- we belonged to theater groups. We had tickets for Broadway shows all the time. And we've done it all -- Off-Broadway, downtown theaters -- you know, there's nothing left. And enough already, you know? How much more can you see? And then, you start seeing old stuff over again, because there isn't that much new stuff around.

EM:Okay. And you --

I:And the museums, you know.

EM:What was your favorite thing to do on a regular basis?

I:Walk -- in New York. I could walk from -- I remember once, I went to the doctor -- he was on Eighty-Eighth and Park Avenue, and I walked all the way down -- on Lexington, because Park Avenue's too boring to walk. I went on Lexington Avenue, all the way downtown -- on Twenty-Third Street -- Ray worked on Twenty-Fifth Street -- and I met him down on Twenty-Third Street. And I once stopped for a cup of coffee, just to have -- sit down. And I walked the rest of the way downtown. That's what I liked to do. And you stop to look at this -- you look in the windows of stores and -- you see New York that way, by walking. And we used to do that a lot, just walk around.

EM:And so, now you live in Massachusetts?

I:Right. We live in Worcester.

EM:And how do you like it there? Or how does it compare --

I:It's a place to live. I can't say, "Oh, come and live in Worcester, it's wonderful." I mean, it's not bad, but it's -- where we live is lovely. It's like living in a park. It's a gorgeous place. And your mother has been where we live, right? It's very nice. Nothing you wouldn't want to have. It's very nice.

EM:And are you part of a Jewish community there?

I:No. Yeah, I'm part of a Jewish community, because I live there, but not because I'm in a -- belong to a synagogue. 'Cause I wouldn't know where.

EM:And I know you said you -- I think it was, you volunteered at a --

I:In New York, yeah.

EM:Okay, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

I:Well, there -- in school, parent association stuff. We would -- the parent 69:00association -- I would be on the board of the parent association. I'd cover meetings, come back and report or whatever. And in the late '60s, we were for McGovern when he was running for president against Nixon. You heard about him, right? In history? Or they don't teach that. And we were involved in that. And Ray was president of a Democratic club. So, our involvement in community like that, you know?

EM:And so -- I think we're gonna finish up soon -- so I was just gonna ask you 70:00if you could reflect on what it means to you to be an American Jew now. Or do you consider yourself an American Jew?

I:Oh, absolutely.

EM:And --

I:Absolutely.

EM:Okay.

I:Without -- I don't need the affiliation -- you know, to be an American Jew. I certainly have no desire to join some other religion or group or ism. No. I'm Jewish, and that's it. That's how I was born, and that's how I am still.

EM:And what about the American part?

I:Oh, I feel very American. I don't think I've ever missed voting. Not even a -- here, I don't vote on community school board meetings or elections, because I don't know who they are, but I never missed even a community school board election in New York, because I knew who the people were who were running. And I 71:00certainly feel very American. I try to live a legal way: you know, not do anything nasty or bad or illegal. And we mind our own business. And try to help and be -- some charitable, you know, when necessary. Our friend in London passed away, and I didn't -- I don't know their synagogue or whatever, but Ray said, "Let's send them some apples." I said, "It'll cost you more to send than the apples certainly, and they'll be rotten by the time they get there." (laughs) So, I decided to make -- he died from lung and heart disease -- so there's this Jewish lung hospital in Denver, and that's where I sent a donation. It's Jewish, it's medical -- you know, to acknowledge to them. So, I mean, to support 72:00people's social life is not very int-- and that's what it is -- belonging to the synagogue. And I cannot be more honest, good citizen, if I belonged to a synagogue. And to have a person who is half my age, probably, or maybe a little more, tell me what to do -- which rabbis try to. It just isn't -- and Ray, you know, if I have to sit and wake him up, forget it. He doesn't even think about it. He knows he's Jewish. There's no doubt, and he would never deny it to anybody. But he doesn't practice anything. And he thinks I'm crazy to still hold on to having a kosher home. And most people who run to shul -- they don't keep a 73:00kosher home, right? Do you know many that do? Okay. I feel I'm probably the only one. I had one other who had a kosher home, but she died. I don't know anybody else. But I feel very Jewish. And I know all the rules and all the laws, the Jewish laws, and I follow them.

EM:All right. Well if someone finds this DVD in fifty years, what do you want them -- what do you want to say to them? (laughs)

I:God knows. God help us all. There are so many evil things afoot in this world that you have to live one day at a time -- or let's hope for one year at a time. And hopefully -- people try to be bad politically, whatever way -- thank God I 74:00survived. It's amazing, isn't it? As a little child, I was sent to a strange family. Luckily, they were nice to me -- they were good to me. And I came to New York with relatives. I met Raymond. We married. We've done our civic duties. We've done our religious duties, giving our children a Jewish education. And I always said, you don't have to do what you learn there; you make up your own mind. You have the basis. And Susan went this way. Jeffrey hasn't denounced Judaism by any means, but he doesn't -- yes, his wife makes a very nice Rosh Hashanah dinner. And we had it. Susan didn't make it, because she didn't have a 75:00home when -- last Rosh Hashanah. And she likes having us over for dinner. And she does whatever should be done. I make the matzah balls, she makes the chicken soup. (laughs) You know, it's a collaboration. I have no complaints.

EM:All right. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share with me?

I:I can't think of -- from what I've told you. Do you have anything else you need to ask me? No?

EM:I think I'm --

I:I mean, probably, when I leave, I'll say, Oh, I should have told her -- I should have -- shoulda, shoulda, shoulda.

EM:Okay. All right. Well, I guess we'll stop here then. So, thank you very much.

I:Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]