JEAN FIDELMAN KOPELMAN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: So this is Christa Whitney, and today is March 4th, 2015. I'm here at the Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York City, and I am here with -- and I'm gonna need you to pronounce your full name for me -- Jean Fidelman Kopelman Haber (pronounces name with short "a") --

JEAN FIDELMAN KOPELMAN HABER:Haber (pronounces name with long "a").

CW:Haber. And we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

JF:Yes, you may.

CW:Thank you. Well, I'd like to start with a little bit of family background.

JF:Okay.

CW:What do you know about where your family came from in Europe?

JF:I know that my mother came when she was about six years old from 1:00[Katinoslav?], which was Russia. Now the story is that my grandfather, who was sort of a building contractor -- they were building a development -- a Jewish development -- in Argentina. And it was called Moisés Ville. This was Baron Hirsch, decided to that -- and Moisés Ville, you should know, is still there. It's part of a -- near Rosario. Anyway, my grandfather went there -- my mother was one of five sisters -- went there with the older sisters, the three older sisters. And later, my grandmother came with my mother and her younger sister. There were five girls. My mother was, I think, about six years old. When she was 2:00very young, how she got into the theater, I don't know. But that's where she met my father, who came to Argentina. And also, I do not know -- he came from a town in Russia, and the only reason that I know where he came from is because there is a book written about the life of Bernie Malamud, whose mother was my father's sister. And according to that, there are pictures -- which I don't know anything about my father's youth, per se. Why he came to Argentina to get into the Yiddish theater, I don't know. My father was not one that spoke a lot. And you have to remember something -- they rehearsed during the day, and then went to the theater at night. So, I didn't have that close connection with my father, 3:00'cause I went to school, and whatever. But I know that he had a cousin who was an actor. His name was Isidore Cashier, who was a pretty famous actor. And he said, "You know, there's golden opportunities in the United States." And although we lived in Argentina, my parents were married in Argentina, I was born in Argentina, and my father came without us to the United States because of the golden opportunities. How he became a prompter -- which in Yiddish is a suflyor, all right? And how he became a prompter, to this day, I don't know. But he did come to the United States, worked here, and when I was born in Argentina, we 4:00were still in Argentina. Six months later, we came -- my mother, and I had a brother, unfortunately, who passed away. And that's how we got to the United States. So we came when I was six months old. Born in Argentina, and that's it.

CW:So, can you back up and tell me a little bit about Moisés Ville -- just for someone --

JF:Moisés Ville was a Jewish settlement, made for Jews that wanted to either escape from Russia -- and being my grandfather was some sort of a contractor, he went to build it. And believe it or not, maybe a year ago or less, in the "New York Times," there was a whole story about Mosesville, and it is still there. Of 5:00course, it's not as big as it used to be. But Moisés Ville is still a settlement -- or a town -- in Argentina.

CW:In the Pampas. Did you --

JF:Yeah.

CW:-- ever hear stories about what it was like there?

JF:I remember my mother telling me that she was like, six or seven years old and used to cry in somebody else's house, because they separated her from her mother and her sister. So, she used to tell me those stories -- how afraid she used to be. And she did some sort of farm work. I'm not sure exactly what it was. But then from there, they went to Rosario, which is not too far away from Moisés Ville. And that's about all I know. And I know that they were married -- my mother and father met in Rosario. And there was a very famous -- as a matter of fact, he was in the movies, I saw him recently. His name was Maurice Moscovich. 6:00And he introduced my mother to my father. My mother was a very beautiful-looking girl -- a woman also. He was a Yiddish actor. And then, of course, my mother had children. She had one child, unfortunately, that passed away when I'm six months old. Then she had another child. I had a brother, who, unfortunately, passed away in the United States. But that's another story. And I'm the only living child, let's put it that way. And we came to the United States. And my father was here already. And the first thing that I can remember -- my first memory, say, of being in the United States is possibly when my brother, who was six years older than I -- and I was three -- I remember that they carried him out on 7:00a stretcher. He had appendicitis. And unfortunately, in those days, they didn't know about peronitis [sic], and he died. And my father was in Argentina at the time. My father went back and forth. In those days, for eighteen days, you go on a ship. And, he used to go back and forth every summer here, which was winter there. So back and forth, back and forth. Now, how he became a prompter -- a suflyor, as I said -- I do not know. We had a good relationship, but being I was the only child left, I was -- he wanted the best for me. No boy was good enough, no this. Well, anyway, we started off -- that's beside the point -- we went to 8:00Chicago, okay? And we lived in Chicago for a while, 'cause my father --

CW:Where had you come first? To New York?

JF:First, we came to New York, and we lived in the Bronx. That's where --

CW:Do you remember the house there?

JF:No. The only thing I remember is a wide -- I told you, I was three years old, and I remember, it was a very wide hallway, and I remember them taking my brother out on a stretcher. That's the only recollection I have of the Bronx. The next recollection -- then I stopped -- I think we lived in Brooklyn, 'cause I see some pictures that when I was a little girl, that we lived in Brooklyn. But I don't have much of a recollection of living in Brooklyn. We did have -- my father had some very good friends who -- one was Isidore Lipinsky, who was a Yiddish actor. And I was very friendly as a child. He had two daughters, twins, 9:00and I was very friendly with -- one was named Rose, and the other one, I can't -- Minnie, maybe. I don't remember exactly what her name was. And we became friendly -- most of the friends that we had were from the Yiddish theater, that my father introduced. And my mother, you have to remember, was not educated here. I mean, she spoke Yiddish and she spoke Spanish. That's what it was there.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Can you describe what your mother's attitude and relationship to the Yiddish theater scene was?

JF:My mother was very -- well, she was taking care of me, let's put it this way. Because of the fact that she lost two children -- and we never lived, except for one particular place -- did we ever live in our own apartment. We always lived 10:00in somebody else's. I remember a couple in Chicago, Mr. and Mrs. Palet to me. They were, like, 102. You know, 'cause I was six years old. And my mother used to go to the theater every once in a while, so we used to leave, and I used to cry to beat the band, because I was alone, all right? Okay. That, I remember. I also remember living in Chicago in two different places. Again, never having our own apartment, per se. From Chicago, where my father was employed as a prompter, we went to Detroit. Because what happened is, the union -- the Hebrew Actors' Union -- used to place you. So, wherever they placed you, that's where we went. 11:00So then, we went to Detroit. We were only in Detroit for one year. My father was in the Yiddish theater. And I don't remember too much about Detroit. The only thing I remember is -- (laughs) -- I have to laugh -- that I remember seeing Charlie Chaplin in "City Lights." That was, like, my big thing in my life. (laughs) Okay. From Detroit, we went to Boston. My father played at a theater. We actually lived in Dorchester. Sixty Harvard Street, I remember that. Sixty Harvard --

CW:Blue Hill Avenue?

JF:Huh?

CW:Blue Hill Avenue, do you remember?

JF:I remember the name Blue Hill Avenue, yes. But we lived -- and it was across the street from -- maybe the theater was called Blue Hill Ave-- it could be that the theater was called -- there was a park, I remember, a big park. And Blue Hill Avenue sounds very familiar. It could have been --

CW:The big street down in --

JF:Right.

CW:-- Dorchester, yeah.

JF:Right. And I don't remember the name, but we were in -- that was in Boston. And I remember the children laughing when I -- I was in the third grade, and oh God, and I didn't have a Bostonian accent, so they thought that that was terri-- they laughed to beat the band. And I will never forget that. The things that stay in your mem-- you know, your mind. Okay. Now, from Boston, my mother's family, you have to remember, was all in Argentina. And she craved -- you know, to see her mother. Her father had died, but her mother and her sisters and what have you. So, off we went, my mother and I, back to Argentina.

CW:You were in --

JF:I was --

CW:-- fourth grade or so?

JF:Yeah. Third, fourth grade. We stayed in Argentina for a year and a half. 'Course --

CW:What was that like for you?

JF:I went to school. Put me in school. I was very bright at the time. Not so much now, but anyway. I was very bright. I didn't understand a word of Spanish, 'course. Threw me into the third grade and the fourth grade. And I did very well. And we lived with one of my mother's sisters, who had a daughter of my age. We lived together. And thank God, she's still around also, and we talk all the time. Anyway. And we were there for a year, and my father was there. And then he went back to the United States. I think he was there for the winter months, but we stayed on for almost a year and a half. And --

CW:Do you remember where in Buenos Aires you lived?

JF:Yes. We lived on Lerma -- the streets. We lived on Cangallo. We lived -- 'cause when I -- I've been back nine times, so, you know, I go to look at the 14:00different places. But we always lived with my mother's sister and her daughter -- her daughter Aida. Anyway. And then what we did is, unfortunately, we didn't have enough money to come back to the United States. So now I have to go back to -- so we went to the United States Consulate, my mother and I. I remember like it was yesterday. And we said, We want to go back to the United States. Now, I am -- I -- my first name when I was born was Sofia. S-o-f-i-a. But I had a Yiddish name, which was Sheyndl. When we came to the United States, one of my father's cousins, whose name was Sheyndl from the same -- whatever -- her name was Jenny. So they said, Sofia is a Spanish name. So they decided that I should 15:00be called Jenny. So I am a citizen on my father's papers as Jenny. Then I went to school later on, and somebody talked to my mother and decided (laughs) they didn't like Jenny, so I became Jean. (laughs) So I've gone from Sofia to Jenny to Jean. I am now officially Jean. Not on any of the papers, but school records, there's that -- I am Jean. Most as --

CW:So, moving around -- you moved around to so many different places, but what was -- was there anything constant in terms of your mother and approach to Jewishness? What was Jewish about your home?

JF:The fact that they spoke Yiddish. My father was -- during the day he 16:00directed; at night -- well, everything was in Yiddish. Everything. So, Yiddish, I understood. If they didn't want me to understand something, sometimes they spoke in Spanish, you know, which I understood anyway, because I did go to school for a year and a half in Spanish. Or some other words that I didn't know. But mostly, it was Yiddish, 'cause --

CW:And --

JF:Go ahead. Because my father worked -- during the day, it was as -- almost as a director, 'cause in those days, it wasn't like a play was -- you know, went on for months and months. It was every other night was another play, a Yiddish play. And sometimes -- so of course, I've seen many a Yiddish play, 'cause I did go to the theater -- you know, just to see my father sometimes.

CW:Can you describe what he did?

JF:My father, as I said before, during the day at rehearsals was on the stage 17:00with the play. At night, a prompter -- which you don't see today. The only place you see a prompter -- a suflyor -- is in the opera, where they sit in a round box on the theater, but you don't see them -- sort of half moon -- and that's where he used to sit and prompt, give them the words, actually. And that was his profession, to do that. And of course, we were very friendly with all the Yiddish actors. That was my life.

CW:So, who are the actors that you really remember?

JF:I remember -- well, later on in life, when we moved to Manhattan -- well, I lived in Brooklyn, but I -- from Chicago we went to Boston; from Boston, we went to Argentina. Then, we went to Philadelphia -- I forgot to Philadelphia -- and to Spruce Street in Philadelphia. And I went to school. Coming from Argentina, I 18:00never went to fifth grade. They tested me in whatever it was, and they put me right into sixth grade. So, I never went to fifth. I went from fourth -- from Boston -- to sixth in Philadelphia. And then went on, and then went to seventh in Boston -- in Philadelphia, I'm sorry. I went to junior high school in Philadelphia. Then we moved to Brooklyn. (laughs) Still remembering that we never had our own apartment. Always lived in somebody else's house.

CW:How did that work? I mean, did you have your own room?

JF:Of course.

CW:You rented a room?

JF:Rented a room. Kitchen privileges or whatever it is. Right. So that's how we 19:00came to -- where was I?

CW:Brooklyn.

JF:I was in Philadelphia. And from Philadelphia, right, we went to Brooklyn. And I went to seventh and eighth grade in Brooklyn. My father worked -- there was two theaters in Brooklyn at that time -- Yiddish theaters. One was the Hopkinson Theatre, where my father worked, and the other one was the Parkway Theatre over there -- which I have pictures of, in front of the Parkway Theatre. Now, he worked with -- you name the actor that he worked with. And of course, I got to know them, only because I went, and, "This is my daughter, how do you do?" or they knew me from before. And the friends that my parents had -- good friends -- were mostly from the Yiddish theater. That was the life.

CW:Do you remember particular people? Like you said, for example, the cousin 20:00that --

JF:Now, that cousin, Isidore Cashier, was the one that told -- sent for my -- not sent for him, but told him that, There's golden opportunities, and please come. We were very, very close. He was my uncle Izzy, and I was Jeaneleh or whatever. And, practically every Sunday we used to go to his house. He had an apartment on Seventh Avenue near Central. To me, that was, you know, like, the richest thing that you ever saw. So we used to be very close.

CW:Can you describe him? What was he like -- Izzy, uncle Izzy?

JF:Uncle Izzy -- first of all, he's a very well-known actor. Extremely well-known. He made a movie and whatever it is. With me, he was the friendliest guy. He loved me. His wife's name was Jenny. He had one daughter. And we were family.

CW:What did he look like?

JF:There are two pictures of him that I had that I brought with me. And very -- as a matter of fact, he made a movie. "The Milkman"? No, not "The Milkman." But he starred in it. He himself starred in the movie. He was very well-known. He was with Maurice Schwartz. Before that, he was with Thomashefsky. And these were very, very famous people. Anyway. And so, this -- I don't know where I was, but --

CW:He was in "Grine Felder," I think, also.

JF:"Grine Felder," right. Right. Right.

CW:So, just -- what did he look like?

JF:Well, I'll show you -- you'll take two pictures that I have. I have very good pictures of him. He was a little chunky. A nice-looking man. And he remembered -- of course, he remembered my father from Russia. This is all -- all from wherever it was -- what part of Russia it was. And, so that's the reason they 22:00were in touch with each other. And he had a sister. Here. She's the one that decided I should be called Jenny.

CW:And they had a fancy apartment?

JF:They had a very nice apartment on Seventh Avenue, I remember, and it was very fan-- very nice. I mean, and to me, at that -- then we moved -- when we moved to Manhattan when I started high school -- when we moved to Manhattan, we used to be more friendly with them, only because it was closer. 'Cause we lived on Thirteenth Street, and he lived on Seventh Avenue. And the building, I think, is still there. Seventh Avenue and -- in the fifties -- or whatever -- that Cashier lived. And that was sorta the rich uncle, you know? And very well-known. Anyway.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I'd like to ask you to describe your father. First of all, I know we have photos, but can you just tell me what he looked like from your memory?

JF:My father was a handsome man. He really was. And very strict in certain things with me -- that there wasn't a person that was good enough for his daughter. Maybe because -- the fact that he lost two children. I don't know. But no, he was meticulous. Absolutely meticulous. And the fact was -- (laughs) -- he'd tell very stupid, funny stories. That when he used to get his underwear from the Chinese laundry, he used to press it out a little bit more. That's how particular. Very. And he --

CW:What did he dress like?

JF:He -- very dapper. Very, very dapper. And as a matter of fact, even in those days, I was the only one that went with my father to buy a suit. I remember we 24:00went to [Gene Brier?]. In those days, it was on -- off Fifth Avenue someplace. And this was very high-class. Didn't buy many, but whatever he did buy was the first class.

CW:Did he wear a hat?

JF:He wore a hat. Except that he resented -- on the holidays. He was not religious -- far from religious. I used to fight with him and cry, 'cause I had a group of friends -- all the boys used to -- during the Jewish holidays, used to wear hats. I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not gonna put on a hat. And like this, he did wear a hat. But he used to fight you. He used to fight me on a lot of different things. He was very strict. And if I had a boy that came up to the house and didn't have a proper suit on or whatever, "No good for my daughter." 25:00All right? As a matter of fact, I did have a boyfriend for three years. And he was a plumber -- a son of a plumber, and he used to work. My father broke it up, 'cause that wasn't for his daughter, all right? And the funniest thing is that my cousin Bernie Malamud -- wrote a short story -- I just read it the other day -- about the fact -- 'cause he used to write a lot about the family, what he saw and whatever it is. 'Cause, in fact, he wrote one of the books -- "The Tenants" -- he wrote in my mother's -- after my father died. Anyway. So, and as I said, the only relationship that we had, besides with Izzy Cashier, we did have with different actors. There was a -- Morris -- I think his first name -- we used to 26:00call him Novikoff. Okay? And the funniest thing is, the other day, I'm watching "Annie Hall" -- the movie. And Rukhl Novikoff, you know -- or you saw --

CW:Yeah.

JF:-- or whatever. And I couldn't know -- I don't remember if she went under Novikoff or her maiden name. And sure enough, I waited until all the credits, and there was Rukhl Novikoff.

CW:This is Morris's wife?

JF:This is Morris's wife, right. And he had a daughter who either -- they were divorced -- from his first wife, not from Rukhl. Her name was Jean. Jeannie. And he loved me like I was his second daughter. We were very close. As I said, before that, we were with Itzik Lipinsky -- that I was close with them. Most of 27:00the people -- and then, of course, we were -- later on in life, I was very friendly with Shifra Lerer. Very friendly. She used to come to the house. And there were stories about Shifra -- with -- my father went -- when he went to Argentina during the summer months here, he went with Maurice Schwartz, he went with Samuel Goldenberg -- he went with Samuel Goldenberg many times. And I used to say to him, "Don't to forget, take good care of my father." And he used to say, "I'm taking him along. He should take care of me." And my father used to go with many an actor. He went with Izzy Cashier also -- he took Izzy. I don't remember if he took Molly Picon or not. But he took -- every winter -- our summer, but every winter, he -- this is the way he made a living.

CW:And this was typical, I think -- so that they had two seasons, right? One in northern --

JF:Well, there -- you know, when we have our summer, they have their winter. It's just the reverse. So, they had the Yiddish theater during the winter there. And during the summer -- they didn't have too much Yiddish theater here in the summertime. So that's the story of --

CW:So would these --

JF:What?

CW:Would your parents' friends come over to where you were staying? Where would they get together?

JF:Mostly either we went out -- no, they didn't really come -- 'cause we didn't live in a hou-- (laughs) -- we lived in a room.

CW:Right.

JF:We lived with kitchen privileges most of the time. So that -- it was just -- Lipinsky was before. But we used to meet, sort of. Cashier, we used to go to his house, I remember. And I doubt if he came to ours. At that time, we had already 29:00a three-bedroo-- no, three bedroom! What am I talking about? I lived in -- slept in the -- (laughs) -- you know, the funniest thing is that my cousin Bernie -- well, you have to mention him, 'cause he was very -- part of our life. He called my father Cecil. And he said that he got his talent. You know, my father wrote -- I don't know if I mentioned before -- in Yiddish -- two plays, all right? By hand. Now, those two plays are in YIVO, all right? And I just -- I have donated those plays many, many, many years ago. And when I had been to the museum there, I questioned it, and nobody knew anything about it. But fortunately, through a connection and a connection, somebody was very active and knew there was somebody in YIVO and they found the plays. And it was all handwritten. My father 30:00had the most magnificent handwriting. And when he gave you a "Charles," he gave you the "C" with a (makes swooshing sound), like that. Very dramatic. Very dramatic. Anyway.

CW:Do you have memories of him writing? Would he write often?

JF:No. I don't. Because these were written in Argentina, before. And once we came to the United States, he was working day and night. And I was either going to school or I was home with my mother.

CW:Do you have -- do you know what those plays are about?

JF:The plays were about -- they were all handwritten in Yiddish, and they were all about the Russian Revolution. I have a feeling that it was about the tsar and the tsarina and what was happening during that period of the Russian -- maybe it was before the revolution, but mostly about Russia and that. That's 31:00what he wrote about.

CW:So your cousin, Bernard Malamud --

JF:Right.

CW:-- Bernie Malamud --

JF:Right.

CW:-- what do you remember about him, growing up?

JF:I remember him -- growing up, we were very close, no matter where he was. I mean, if he taught in Corvallis -- or before that, when he got married, and one of the books that we read that I was interviewed about -- after he passed away, there was an English professor that wrote a book on him and his stories. And that's where I found out, all right, where my father was born, with his mother -- and that my father had two sisters. I never knew that. He never talked about Europe, per se. And we do have -- Reema has one picture -- my daughter has one picture. And we're trying to figure out who they are, really. I think it's my father standing as a little boy, and some of the girls, mother and father. 32:00Otherwise, I have no -- he never talked about them. And as I said, only through Bernie -- I guess Bernie's mother -- did I know -- and she died when I was, I think, six years old, unfortunately. But Bernie used to come to the house all the time. And he confessed that -- through my -- that he got his -- in one particular quote, he says he thinks he got his writing ability inherited from my father.

CW:So what was he like as a young person, when --

JF:Who, Bernie?

CW:Bernie.

JF:Bernie came to our house all the time, all right? He had -- his mother died when he was twelve. And he had a brother. And the brother, unfortunately, was -- what was the word? Not well, let's put it that way. Mentally not well. And I 33:00remember, later on in years, that we used to go visit him. And he was very, very close to us, till the day that he died. He wanted to pay my mother's rent. He used to be in touch with my mother -- he dedicated one of the books to my mother. And we were friendly. He was there for me all the time, and for my children.

CW:What would you do with him? What would you do together?

JF:Well, there's little stories. You wanna hear a little story?

CW:Yes, please.

JF:Yes. Okay. When my son Charles -- I have two sons and one daughter -- when my son Charles was bar mitzvahed, okay -- so he came the night before. Unfortunately, my children's father died at the age of fifty-two. And so, he 34:00came to the house. And, of course, my mother was a beautic-- oh, I didn't tell you about that -- about my mother became a beautician. When we came back from Argentina, we lived in Philadelphia, on Spruce Street. And my mother went to the Wilfred Academy, which is one of the beauty schools. And in those days -- I understand today, also, that you have to know the layers of the skin, and you have to know this and everything else to become licensed. And my mother was not educated in English as well, 'cause she had come from Argentina, blah-blah-blah, didn't go to school here. And I went and I learned everything and was given permission by the state of Pennsylvania to go with her to take the test. So, I knew more than she did -- (laughs) -- 'cause I was able to read English. So that's another story. And my mother -- because my father, from going from place 35:00to place to place, didn't make such a big living, so we did -- so she went to beauty school and became a -- as in those days, a beautician.

CW:Wow.

JF:And to the day she almost died.

CW:Did she have a shop or did she work for --

JF:No. She always worked for somebody. We didn't have enough money to own a shop. Okay, so going back -- going back to Bernie?

CW:The bar mitzvah, yeah.

JF:Oh, the bar mitzvah. So he came -- which is a cute little story. So, he came the day before, on a Friday night, and he came to my house. And there was a motel close by -- he stayed at the Howard Johnson. And my mother says, "Bernie, you need a haircut." He says, "Okay." So, my mother put a towel around him and gave him a haircut. So he gives my son Charles a check. And instead of writing out the check to Charles Kopelman -- my son calls me over, he says, "Ma, he wrote the check to Charles Fidelman," which was my maiden name. And that was his 36:00uncle. So, I said, "Okay, I'll tell him." You know. But we laughed so, because it was so funny the way Charles called me over, and he says, "Ma, he made it" -- (laughs) -- "he made it out to Fidelman." (laughs) Because he was so accustomed to the name Fidelman. Okay, so that was a -- so he says, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry!" You know, whatever. But he came to every affair that we ever had. He was there when my children's father passed away of a heart attack. And he came to the house. And of course, we were very, very active in our temple. My husband built the temple. He was president for three and a half years, and I was president --

CW:Which temple?

JF:This is in Jericho, Long Island, when we moved to Jericho. Anyway. So, he came in, and we had sort of built on an extra room -- we always called it the 37:00extra room. And most of the children -- my children were -- you know, from high school. Reema was on her way to college almost, and the boys were in high school. And it amazed him, as to the impression it was that, Look at all those children that came to make a shiva [seven-day mourning period] call. He couldn't get over it. But he was always there -- no matter what. We were in his apartment -- he had an apartment in Lincoln Center -- we went to his daughter's wedding -- 'cause he taught in Bennington. And we were very, very close, okay? Very close.

CW:Do you have any other favorite stories of him -- of Bernie?

JF:Favorite stories? Yeah, the one -- we go to a restaurant, okay? I was remarried. And the four of us -- and we were supposed to go to his house for 38:00dinner. So, he calls me into the kitchen and he says to me, "Ann didn't make dinner. We're going to a restaurant." We go to this restaurant. And, it was a fish place in New York. I'll never forget. And we sat upstairs. There weren't too many people there. Anyway. And, he wanted to pay the check. Now, they don't take credit cards at that time. And we didn't come with enough money -- I mean, we were invited to somebody's house for dinner. And not everybody had credit cards in those days, anyway. So what can we do about that? So he went over and he said he's Bernard Malamud. Well, you think that's -- you know, King Farouk walked in there, you know? Oh, Mr. Malamud, we'll take your check. (laughs) And 39:00I'll never forget that story -- how we were sitting there -- 'cause we didn't have a -- it was an expensive restaurant, and as I said, we didn't come with (UNCLEAR). But today, you carry six credit cards and, you know, cash and whatever. In those days, we didn't. But that I remember as a very funny story. And, of course, my children all went to the memorial s-- oh, the best story. Wherever he had an occasion, we were invited. When he was inducted into the Academy of Arts and Sciences, we were invited. I was invited there with my husband. And Arthur Miller at that time was married to Marilyn Monroe. Of course, everybody's eyes -- she was sitting in a balcony or whatever with Arthur Miller's mother. And of course, nobody paid attention to Pearl S. Buck, or to 40:00anybody else. They paid attention to Marilyn Monroe in a black dress -- plain black dress. She happened to be gorgeous. Anyway. After that, they had a reception outside. So, Arthur Miller comes over and Bernie -- we're standing together -- he never left us. And he says, "Congratulations. You were just inducted." He says, "Thank you very much for your -- but instead, I'd like to meet your wife." So, Marilyn Monroe came over. "And this is my cousin Jeannie." "Oh! How do you do?" (laughs) And introduced us to her. I met a few people through -- he used to invite us to different cocktail parties that he had. I met Zachary Scott. I met Charles Jackson, who wrote "The Lost Weekend." I met -- he had a very, very dear friend, and I can't remember the name -- he was in the 41:00"New York Times" book section so many times. He used to -- wherever it was, you know, it was an occasion. "Come along," you know? He used to invite us. As I said, we were very, very close. But that, of course -- when I say I met Marilyn Monroe and Zachary Scott. And I remember Charles Jackson, 'cause he wrote "The Lost Weekend."

CW:Did you ever -- I'm not sure if you would have had occasion, but did you ever see him writing?

JF:He was very peculiar about his writing. He used to go into a room -- because we've stayed there -- into a room, closed the door, and that's how he wrote. From 9:00 to 12:00. And that was the end of his writing. Then he came out, and you were able to talk to him. That's how he wrote. 'Cause they lived in Bennington, I remember -- we used to go up -- his daughter got married, we went 42:00to the wedding. As I said, we were very close. There wasn't a thing that we missed, whatever it was. When he was inducted -- the only regret he had -- he had one regret: that he didn't win the Nobel Peace for literature -- that what's-his-name won, which was a very dear friend of his, also. I can't think of his name. Out of the clear blue, it'll come to me. Very, very famous. Very famous. But -- so that's the story.

CW:I'd like to go back to your father.

JF:Go back.

CW:So, you spoke Yiddish with him mostly?

JF:No. I spoke English.

CW:English with him.

JF:But I understood. I mean, there wasn't a show that I didn't go to see. You know, of course, I didn't like staying home alone. Not that my mother went to 43:00every single show. But I went to a lot of shows.

CW:So of those shows, any that stick out in your mind, looking back now?

JF:There used to be -- Itzik Feld, who was a comedian, I think he was. And I used to go see a lot of his shows. He was on Second Avenue when we lived in New York. We lived on Thirteenth Street between First and Second Avenue. On Twelfth Street and Second Avenue was the Café Royal. And the Café Royal was the hangout, so to speak, for the Yiddish actors. So, for a treat, my father used to take me, maybe once or twice, that he took me for lunch. So I met, you know, like -- you name it. There was Lucy and Misha Gehrman, who were very famous. Stella Adler. And the funniest thing is that Stella Adler's son became a doctor 44:00that I used to go to. (laughs) He shared an office with my obstetrician -- Stella Adler's son. And, there were so many different actors that -- I mean, my world -- besides my friends, per se. Oh, there's another nice story. I lived on Thirteenth Street, and I met this girl who lived on Twelfth Street whose father was a Yiddish actor. And I became very, very friendly with Ruth. And her father, who was a nut if ever there lived, was -- I shouldn't say that -- Louis Weisberg. He used to be with Maurice Schwartz and whatever it is. Now, Ruth and I were friends. She was my matron of honor and everything else. Now, when I got 45:00married, I had no place to live. 'Cause in those days -- and we had -- we did have our own apartment -- my mother and father -- a three-room apartment. One, I slept in the living room -- who Bernie tells in one of the stories -- and a bedroom, and there was sort of a hallway kitchen. So here, we got married, where are we gonna live? So Louis Weisberg, unfortunately, was in the hospital. He had a leg -- he had diabet-- he had a leg. So, we moved in to his apartment while he was in the hospital. This was my first apartment -- so we could pay the rent for Louis Weisberg while he was away. So, connections, all from Yiddish theater and whatever. And the other story is, is unfortunately, my husband -- their father 46:00-- passed away very early -- fifty-two. And five years later, before that, I get a call that Ruthie died. And my second husband was her husband. So you never know, right? How it is.

CW:So for someone of my generation who couldn't see the Yiddish theater back then, can you describe what a show was like?

JF:A show was like -- well, if you went to the Broadway shows, it was no different. A show is a show is a show -- that, I think, Ethel Merman sang or somebody, you know? So, it was a show like any other show, except that, of course, it was in Yiddish. I saw a couple of dramas. "Shylock," I think they played, or -- a couple of dramas. I'm trying to remember. But a lot of comedies 47:00that I went to see, mostly. And especially with Menasha Skulnik -- that, you know, in those days, he was great. And so, you know, there was laughter. I used to get a seat in the orchestra or whatever, and then wait for my father after the show, or my mother took me or whatever. You know, wait for my father. We used to walk home. 'Cause in those days, when we lived in New York, he played on Second Avenue. And in those days, there were a lot of theaters on Second Avenue. And then, when the theaters -- the Yiddish theaters -- sort of died down, there used to be Yiddish vaudeville. So, my father not so much prompted, but sorta directed and whatever. And he used to tell me the story about Robert Merrill, the opera singer, who was part of his vaudeville acts. And they used to say, 48:00Where did that bum come from? Or something or other. You know, very funny stories -- about Robert Merrill, of all people. And it died out. The Yiddish theater just died out.

CW:Can you describe the Second Avenue and which theaters were along there?

JF:Yes. Oh! The Second A-- the funniest thing is, not too long ago -- I haven't been down to the East Side, God knows till when. And we -- it used to be called -- there was the Yiddish Art Theatre, where Maurice Schwartz was. There was the Second Avenue Theatre. One was close to each other. These were Yiddish theaters. There was the -- now it's a movie -- I think it's the Orpheum on Twelfth Street and Second Avenue, which is still a movie house. And I don't remember what it 49:00was called, but that was a Yiddish theater. There was about three or four Yiddish theaters. And then, when the Yiddish theater sort of faded out, there used to be called a National Theatre, which was a lot of the Yiddish actors doing vaudeville. That's where my father met Robert Merrill. (laughs) Anyway. That used to do -- you know. And, of course, he used to talk. He used to talk. This is before my time, when I was probably a little girl. He used to talk about Muni Weisenfeld [sic], who was Paul Muni. He spoke about, like I said, Maurice Moscovich, who I just happened to see in a movie not too long ago. He used to talk about -- I don't know, I met Leo Fuchs, who died many years ago. I met them all, you know? And especially, they used to walk on Second Avenue besides that, 50:00so I used to recognize Lebedeff -- Aaron Lebedeff -- without the straw hat and boutonnière, you know, I mean, it wasn't Aaron Lebedeff. So, I used to see them all.

CW:Did the different theaters have different types of plays at them?

JF:Not exactly. Some of them were comedies, like the Itzik Feld's or -- Maurice Schwartz's theater was a little bit high drama, you know? And then, of course, when my father first came to the United States, there was the theater where Thomashefsky -- the People's Theater. And I think that was one of his first jobs, that he worked there as a prompter. How he became a prompter, I will never know. And where he learned -- I can understand the Yiddish part, because the 51:00plays that he wrote were in Yiddish. But how he became -- how he delved into the theater, he never spoke about it, and I don't know that. And why he came to Argentina -- I know why my mother went to Argentina, but I don't know why my father came to Argentina. Unless he came with a Yiddish group, because there were Yiddish actors and groups in Russia -- or in the big cities, in Warsaw, and this and that. He didn't come from Poland, that much I know. But I'm just sayin' -- but how he got affiliated with them, I don't know.

CW:Do you remember the theaters in Argentina?

JF:Yes. There were two theaters that I remember in Argentina. I'm trying to remember the names. Very difficult. The name of the theater -- I didn't think about it, so probably if I thought about it and thought about it, I would remember.

CW:Do you remember where they were?

JF:They were on the main streets -- San Corrientes, which is one of the main streets in Buenos Aires. And they were big theaters. I mean, I've gone to it. And my father took Samuel Goldenberg more than once. And I have the pictures. More than once that he went with Goldenberg. And as I said, this is how you made a living. And this is how we traveled around. (laughs)

CW:So then, what happened to the theaters?

JF:They just -- the Yiddish people became Americanized. (laughs) And then the -- you know, a lot of them went to English from Yiddish. And it just died down. The Hebrew Actors' Union, who gave the jobs out -- which was on Seventh Street 53:00between Second and Third Avenue. And -- Guskin, his name was. Reuben Guskin was the name of the main cheese. And they used to give out, I guess, the jobs. You went there. That was the union, and this is where you got your job. And it was really a hangout also, you know? And, that I remember. There's a side story, if you want to. A couple of weeks ago, my son -- I had not been on the East Side or had seen Thirteenth Street, where I used to live, or Second Avenue, God knows, years and years and years. So, my son said, "We'll go for a ride." So, we went with my son and my daughter-in-law and we went to the East Side to see where I used to live on Thirteenth Street, which was next door to the Eye E-- Eye and Ear Hospital, which is now a parking lot. Okay. So, we go on Second Avenue, and 54:00I'm looking, and there's an Orpheum that used to be a movie house that now is -- (clears throat) -- excuse me -- I don't know if it's rock-and-roll stars that go there, or things like that. And we stopped for a minute on the opposite side -- on Second Avenue, between Sixth and Seventh Street. And there's a group of people standing, and somebody is talking. Now, I had never heard of walking tours. Never heard of it. So, my son says, "Go over and talk to them." So, I go over -- and I do have chutzpah, all right? I'm not ashamed to go -- walk over, you know? I walked over to Sammy Davis, I walked even to Kennedy -- I walked 55:00over to John John -- I walked over one time. I mean, I've -- if I see them, I can walk over, and I say, "Hello, I enjoyed" -- yeah. So anyway. So, I walk over to this group -- it was about six or seven people -- and he -- the man says to me, "This is a paid tour." So, I says, "I'm not here to be part of your tour, but I just want you to know. Now you see upstairs, right here? That's where I got married in 1948. Now you see where you're standing? That used to be the Lower East Commodore" -- (laughs) -- "where we used to go to the movies. That used to be Ratner's Restaurant." (laughs) So I was giving the -- they laughed so. But right away, he said, "This is a paid group." Like, don't -- you know, you can't come into it. Like I was gonna go -- I says, "I'm gonna give you information." But anyway, that's beside the point. So that's -- what should I tell you? That was my life. And --

CW:Did they ever try to convince you to act?

JF:No. I had decided -- that's a good story, too. I decided that I wanted to be a model, okay? And I did go to the Barbizon School of Mo-- I went to work, 'cause I had to go to work. One year, I went to City College at night. But in those days, you had to earn money, all right? And I was very busy with the boys. Education was the furthest thing from my mind. Anyway. I happened to be a nice-lookin', tall girl. And I decided -- but I was working. I was working in an office -- always worked in an office. And I decided I wanted to go to modeling school. And I did go. And my father thought that I was -- I hate to say this, as 57:00if I was a whore walking. He did not like the idea that I should go. And this was after work, I used to go. My mother said, "Go. You wanna go? Go." My father objected to it terribly. It wasn't for his daughter to become a model. I mean, (makes sound of disapproval) -- it wasn't right. So that was -- he didn't even like when I brought my father of my children -- when I got married, he didn't like the fact that he didn't have a nice suit. How do you come into somebody else's house -- he was so particular in so many different ways. He was. He didn't want to wear a tuxedo or tails to my wedding. I used to cry. "Pa, please! I'm wearing a gown." Did me a big favor -- that he (UNCLEAR). And yet, he was elegant. Very elegant. He was a nice-looking man. And my mother was a beauty. 58:00But that's where I get it from. (laughs) And that's my story with the Yiddish theater. My whole life, I went from town to town to school to school. And that's it, when I tell my life story. That's why, I guess, I had an interesting life.

CW:Any other favorite stories about your father before we --

JF:My favorite stories about my father, I'm trying. He loved Reema -- was my first child. And he used to have -- he never had patience with me. Never. But yet, he used to confide in me about money. I used to go with him -- say, to the bank -- in those days, they used to keep money in the post office. But anyway, I knew about it. Not with my mother, but me. He never went to buy a suit that I didn't go with him. He didn't buy a shirt that I didn't go with him, all right? 59:00So in that respect, we were very, very close, all right? He protected me in a lot of ways. I had this boyfriend who was a plumber. I went with him for three and a half years. And my father broke it up. And he loved somebody that walked in looking elegant, dressed -- whatever my boyfriends were. So, when I was going with Reema's father -- as I said, he didn't like the suit. I said, "You know what? Let's go buy a suit" -- (laughs) -- "so my father'll like you." But yet, when Reema was born, he didn't want to go -- he didn't want to go to shul when they were naming Reema. I cried my eyes out. "I'm not a hypocrite, I'm not going to shul, and I'm not this." "Please. Please." You know, my husband was going, 60:00his father was going, and uncle -- "Please." And in those days, you stayed in the hospital for eight days, so I was still in the hospital. So, "Please go name the baby" -- he did me the biggest favor. Because I cried so much that he went. Otherwise, nothin' doin'. "Not a hyp-- I'm not going to shul." He just didn't want -- certain things he was very stubborn about, you know?

CW:So, I just want to ask a couple other things --

JF:Go. You ask.

CW:-- but is there anything you think you'd like people to know about the theater back then and the world of Yiddish theater that you haven't said yet?

JF:That people should know about the Yiddish theater? It was a flourishing thing. People used to come and laugh and sing. And there was the Yiddish songs 61:00and everything else. And all of a sudden, after years -- and it was quite a few years that the Yiddish theater went on -- and then it sorta faded out. Everybody became, you know, Americanized. And the only thing that was left was the Folksbiene that still had Yiddish theater. And I don't know -- I went to see two of their plays or whatever, and I don't know how well they even did, okay? And a lot of the Yiddish actors, of course, went into the movies. There's a lot of Yiddish actors that went into the movies. You know, smaller parts and stars and whatever it is. And for whatever reason. And then a lot, unfortunately, died. You know, you weren't talking about, you know, eighteen-, nineteen-year-old kids 62:00that I can remember. I mean, I was young, and I'm gonna -- was just ninety-two. So, what I'm trying to say is that I don't know what happened to it. It just, like, sort of faded out. Like a lot of other things that faded out, you know? Like the man that used to sell the hot sweet potatoes. Or, you know, walkin' around on the East Side, I remember, with the hot -- you know, opened up a drawer and gave you a piece of paper, and for two cents or three cents, you got a hot sweet potato. Gone. Everything is Americanized. That's what it is.

CW:So how did growing up around that -- looking back at your life, how did that influence your own sense of Jewish identity, of your own identity?

JF:Well, I was -- I became -- after I was married -- let's put it this way: we 63:00never belonged to a synagogue. My father didn't believe in it, and I knew nothing about it. But after I was married and we lived in a new community -- in Jericho, Long Island -- my husband was a man who was always interested in the settlement houses. Of course, he was in the World War II, came back from World War II, thank God -- and joined -- at that time -- the American somethin'-or-other. It was for veterans, to get them housing. He was always involved in some sort of -- what's the word I want? A good word would be -- 64:00interested in community, all right? The better of man, let's put it that way. And when we moved to our home -- 'cause before that, we lived in Stuyvesant Town, on Fourteenth Street and Second Avenue -- anyway. And then we lived in a furnished apartment -- that's unimportant. And, we moved to Jericho. And, all of a sudden, he became inter-- in the settlement houses, he was interested in. And to him, they were creating a temple. To him, it was the settlement house -- not so much the religion. So, he became active. And we never had a kosher home. But we were Yiddish. Everything was Yiddish. And he became -- after building -- 65:00helping to build the temple -- he was there on the signing, excuse me, on the signing of the papers -- where the land was. Anyway, he was president for three and a half years. Unfortunately, he died in the temple, all right? And I became active in the sisterhood of the temple. And we -- I became president eventually. I was president when he passed away. And he died, one, two, three, like this. That's another story. Coming home and tell your children that your father -- Where's daddy? All right. That's a different story. That's what you go through in life. And so, it was always in Yiddish, all right? And my background was Yiddish. And of course, his mother passed away and whatever, he had to go say 66:00Kaddish, which was -- he wasn't a shul-goer, really. His father used to go, I think, once a year, or something or other. But it was always Yiddish. So that's -- and our whole life has been Yiddish, you know? So, my -- even my grandchildren, of course -- all of my children married Yiddish. And my daughter's husband, who is one of four brothers, who never -- I think he was bar mitzvahed, he was the only one, but he became active in the temple. Through me and my daughter going to Hebrew school -- all three children went to Hebrew school -- became active -- became almost religious -- (laughs) -- in a semi-way -- became president of the temple. And they're very active, my daughter and 67:00son-in-law, in the temple. So, I guess they inherited it from their father -- my husband. My second husband was more religious. He came from a kosher house. And he was my girlfriend Ruthie's husband. So, it's a funny story. And he asked me if I wanted to have a kosher home. And I said, "I've never had a kosher home before. I'm not having one now."

CW:So --

JF:Tell me more.

CW:Just to end here, what do you think about the future of the Yiddish language?

JF:I think because of Aaron Lansky, I think it has progressed a little bit more. Knowing that there is Yiddish classes in the university, through the work of the 68:00new museum and the different things, that I think that -- and, of course, the fantastic job that he did in collecting all those books and everything else. But I think, of course -- and the words are coming back a little bit, even by the non-Jews -- the Jewish expressions that are coming back, that you hear more and more of. And through also, I think, the famous people who are Yiddish. You know, I tell the story that when I lived on Thirteenth Street -- I go back from once to -- Sidney Lumet (pronounces name with emphasis on first syllable), who is now Sidney Lumet (pronounces name with emphasis on second syllable) -- and spelled the same way -- I mean, he's no longer here, but he directed a lot of movies. 69:00But every time I see Sidney or I hear Sidney, I remember Sidney as Sidney Lumet (pronounces name with emphasis on first syllable) -- it's spelled the same way, but they Americanized it and they made it Lumet (pronounces name with emphasis on second syllable) -- spelled the same way. I have to laugh each time I see that. Anyway. So, I think through -- that eventually -- I mean, the Yiddish language sort of died out, but it is being brought back now. Which, of course, is great. I mean, my whole life has been Yiddish. You know? Going from city to city to city. They love to hear my stories. And as I said, the two plays that my father had written -- I think it was written before I was born. I think he wrote it in Argentina. And YIVO, they lost it. And now they found it. Thank God that YIVO has it. And these different Jewish museums. The new one in Philadelphia, 70:00which I haven't been to yet -- the Jewish museum. And I think eventually -- you know, not what it used to be. Because the immigrants -- they just had -- what was it, yesterday or the day before, the story on PBS. They had a story about the Jewish immigration. Very interesting. I was watching it -- and how they came to -- you know, how the Jews -- and I never knew that were so many Jews in Iran and in Egypt and whatever it is that fled Europe and Russia and everything else. And I never knew that before. So, I learned something -- see, they say, Every day, you learn something new. Okay.

CW:Well, a groysn dank [thank you very much].

JF:Ir darf nisht zogn dos [Yiddish: You don't need to say that] -- porque [Spanish: because] -- I bring my Spanish in. No. Forget it. I bring my Spa-- porque fue un placer para mi [Spanish: because it was my pleasure].

[END OF INTERVIEW]