PATRICIA BARBANELL ORAL HISTORY

DIANA CLARKE: This is Diana Clarke, and today is March 12th, 2015. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Patricia Barbanell, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Patricia, do I have your permission to record this interview?

PATRICIA BARBANELL:Yes, you surely do.

DC:Great. Thank you. All right. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for coming. So, maybe let's just start out -- can you tell me a little bit about your family background?

PB:Oh. Well, how far back do you want me to go? (laughs) To my grandparents?

DC:Sure.

PB:Okay. 'Cause I don't know much before that; a little bit. My mother's family 1:00came from somewhere between Austria and Hungary. I think it might have been Galicia -- Galicia, galitsyaner [Galician], I don't know. But it was a place that kept switching governments or whatever. And my grandparents -- my grandmother and my grandfather -- came over here, I think, probably around 1910, 1912. And I believe one of my grandparents was a rabbi. I have a picture of him. I didn't bring it with me -- I didn't think you'd be interested in that. (laughs) But I do. And they came. And there's stories that go along with that, but I'll just briefly tell you that my father's family came from Russia. And my 2:00grandmother was involved in the 1905 Russian Revolution, spent two years in a Russian -- tsarist prison. And then, somebody sprung her -- got her out, sent her to America, because she had a brother here. And she lived in Moscow. She lived in Moscow. My grandfather lived in Odessa. And I think he was involved in some of the movements. I've read a book that I guess you folks here at the Center published, called -- oh boy -- "When We Were" -- I can see the front cover. Well, anyway, there's a book that tells the story of the political movements around 1905 in Odessa. And there's such a commonality with something of my grandfather's stories that I heard that I think he must have somehow have 3:00been involved in this. At any rate, he took off from there running. They were gonna draft him into the tsar's army and he wanted no part of that, so he went running and ended up in the United States, where I guess my grandparents met. So, that's my grandparents. My grandfather on my mother's side was a milkman, and so they lived fairly comfortably in the Bronx through the Depression. And my grandfather on my father's side was a paperhanger. And I think he must have had -- he had some aspirations to be an artist, but it was a painter and paperhanger that he was. And my grandmother did what we would now call a nurse's aide. And she was active in, shall we say, left -- very left-wing things. There were 4:00organizations at that time among Jews who had been in the revolution. She was sort of revered among her little circle because of this. And they tell me she was very beautiful. At any rate, my father said she used to be approached by men whenever she'd walk him, and things like that. But she would go to meetings. She took me to meetings when I was a child -- to these -- they were actually a little communist cell down in lower Manhattan. These very old -- well, they seemed to me -- they probably were younger than I am now, but at that time, they seemed very, very old. And they were speaking mostly in Russian and Yiddish. But I did come to understand that they were talking about politics and Russia and what was happening with the revolution and Stalin and how it was emerging. And 5:00so, my parents met at a place called Kinderland, which is, I think, in Westchester County in New York. And that was a -- they say liberal, but it was really a communist camp for children and young people whose parents were like my grandparents. My father was working there and my mother went there to meet guys. So, they met and they got married. And I don't know what else. My father was an engineer -- he was an artist and then an engineer. And then, we moved to Connecticut, where I -- we actually -- I was born in New York State, but moved to Connecticut. And it was kinda strange being Jewish at that time, where we were in rural Connecticut. We were one of two families in the whole town who were Jewish, so it was -- I had my share of anti-Semitic encounters. Mostly 6:00ignorance more than malice, you know -- what had seemed like malice -- but nonetheless, it was not pleasant. So eventually, I went off to college. And I ended up at Brandeis University, where -- oddly enough, since my name is Barbanell -- a name which was not my father's name. He was an illustrator and he couldn't get a job because he was Jewish. So, he knew he had a fraternity brother whose name was Barbanell, so he appropriated the name, and then subsequently got very nasty encounters with the real Barbanells. 'Cause you may know that that's a very highly respected name -- the Abravanel, Barbanell, you know. We're not one of them, so they did not appreciate that my father took this name. Nonetheless, that's what I was born, so that's my name. And --

DC:Let me --

PB:Want me to stop?

DC:Yeah.

PB:Okay. I'll stop right there.

DC:I'll just stop you for a minute and back up, 'cause you've given us a lot of material. So, let's back up to maybe your grandmother in Lower Manhattan. Could you paint me a little picture of the, as you said, sort of communist cell there?

PB:Okay. You know, it was a long time ago and I was a little girl. She at that time lived on the Upper West Side -- I'm gonna guess 120th -- Sixth -- somewhere in that area. And she would put me on the subway with her. We'd go down to the Lower East Side, which is -- I'm trying to remember -- probably -- I forget the names of the streets, but there's a street there where there's a park and 8:00there's two streets -- south of Houston Street, I think. And there's two parallel streets, no buildings in the middle -- at least there wasn't when I was -- and on one side, there used to be cafés -- a lot of Jewish cafés -- hung over from another world. And she went to one of them, which I guess is where the old commies used to go and have their little meetings. I think it was there. I know I went there. It might have been somewhere else where the meeting was. But anyway, we went there. And they would sit down and they would discuss whatever the current events of the time were. They were all Jewish, of course. I say of course, but they were all Jewish. And they all had stories to tell. It was pretty amazing. Unfortunately, I don't speak Yiddish, I don't speak Russian -- (laughs) -- so -- but my grandmother did tell me a little bit. Later on, when she was older, she was in the Jewish Home for the Aging up in Upper West Side, 9:00and her roommate was a woman whose son had been in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Have you ever heard of that? Okay. The Abraham Lincoln Brigade was a group of young, mostly Jewish men who, when Franco had a revolution in Spain, they got together and they went to Spain to fight. And a lot of them got killed. They didn't go as Americans; they went as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, is what they called themselves. And so, this woman would talk about her son. And her son had been killed -- I don't know if I said that two minutes ago, but anyway. So, she was a heroine to these folk. In that place, at the time my grandmother was there, there were a lot of people with very, very rich stories. I guess I could tell you a little bit about summers. My grandmother would go to Kinderland, 10:00which I mentioned before is where my parents met. I think that was the same place. And again, they were liberal, left-wing, communist old folks and not-so-old folks -- the children of them. And they went to this camp. And it was like a Catskills-type camp, except it wasn't in the Catskills, it was in Westchester or wherever. And they would invite people to come and talk. So, I went to visit her when I was young. And then, later, when I was living in Lower Manhattan, I went to visit her. And they would have people -- they had Pete Seeger, they had Cesar Chavez -- they had a wonderful program of these activists, left-wing activists. So, that was my grandmother. She was very active in that. And I like to say it's in my DNA, because it kind of threw me into it. Do you want me to keep babbling on about this or not? (laughs)

DC:This is great. Maybe I'll ask you one more -- do you have maybe a story that you remember that your grandmother told you about the revolution, about being in Russia?

PB:Hm. Well, part of her story was, as I said, she was very pretty. So, she had a boyfriend who was not Jewish. This did not please her parents -- that was part of why they shipped her out of there. But the story really that comes to mind is, when she was coming over she of course was in steerage. And some other young man -- I don't know if he was Jewish or not -- but on the upper level, saw her and actually brought her up to first class to sit through -- (laughs) -- the journey in first class. So, she had quite a nice journey over here. No, I mean, she didn't talk a lot about what it was like to be in jail, except that she was 12:00hard of hearing all of her life, because she had gotten an infection in jail in her ears, and they of course did not treat her -- you know, give her any medication -- so she lost part of her hearing when she was there. So, I don't know. She did not share a lot of that. It was more her -- she was thrilled that there had been a successful revolution. She had no real sense of what being under Stalin was like or what was truly happening to Jews in Russia, because to her, the revolution had happened, and she was happy. I mean, she read Yiddish, she read Russian, she read German, she read -- I mean, she read seven or eight different languages. And so, she had a lot of Yiddish books, all -- God knows where they went. And some Russian books and stuff. So, I don't know what I can tell you. Yeah.

DC:Oh, that's great. Maybe now let's jump ahead a little bit to, you said, your 13:00parents' house in Connecticut --

PB:Yeah.

DC:-- where you spent your childhood. Tell me a little bit about the house: what it looked like, what it was like growing up there.

PB:Oh. That's funny. I say it's funny because I never thought of it as anything anybody would be interested in. (laughs) Well, we had lived till I was about seven or eight years in Mount Kisco, New York, in an apartment. And then, my father worked for Avco, the aerospace industries in Connecticut, and finally they moved us out to Connecticut. And we went to this town called Shelton, Connecticut -- an industrial town. And part of the town was in the country -- Huntington -- an old farming community. So, what was the house like? It was a brand-new house at the time -- early 1950s, simple Cape Cod house. And that's it. I mean, there was nothing -- I don't know what I can tell you other than it 14:00was a house, you know? And it had two bedrooms -- three bedrooms and living room and dining room. Not a big house. But it was comfortable. And the only thing is that there was some weird stuff. One time, some kids burned a cross on our lawn. My father, by then, was involved in civic things, and he -- they found the kids, which is something surprising in this day and age -- (laughs) -- they actually caught them. And he decided not to send them to jail -- you know, 'cause he could have -- and wanted them to learn a lesson rather than be so punished. It never happened again, but that did happen. I had teachers -- I remember one teacher asked me to sing a Christian -- you know, Christmas carol. Well, I don't have to tell you, I didn't know Christmas carols. I went to school in Westchester County, where they were not so stupid as to ask me to sing a 15:00Christmas carol. (laughs) There were more Jews in the town, of course. And I told the teacher I didn't know it. And she got very upset. She didn't believe me. This was a fun day for a little ten-year-old kid. And then, when she finally realized I really was Jewish and I really didn't know this, her remark was classic: she said, "Oh, some of my best friends are Jewish." And even at that age, I knew this was -- something was really wrong here. (laughs) So, I don't know. But you know, it was not terrible. It was a nice place to grow up. And I didn't have to encounter that very often. It was enough so that I remember the episodes. So, it was okay. But it was kinda strange, because I really wasn't part of the social life, because it all revolved around the churches. And there was a synagogue two towns over, but my wonderful dad being who he was, he 16:00proceeded to have a fight with the congregation over in Ansonia, Connecticut, or wherever it was. So, for whatever reason, he refused to take me to any kind of Jewish school or Jewish education. So, I got none. In fact, neither did my brother. And at some point, he was in Boy Scouts. And there he was, like, fourteen or fifteen years old, and wanted to become an Eagle Scout. And they needed his pastor or rabbi to sign off. So, he went over (laughs) to this place -- this synagogue -- and the rabbi refused, unless he got bar mitzvahed. So, my brother got bar mitzvahed at the age of sixteen, I think. It was a charming situation all the way around, 'cause my dad was so stubborn. He really was. But very proud of being Jewish. I mean, he made us -- you know, he had us celebrate all the holidays and stuff. But it was always at home. We never went to shul or anything.

DC:Can you tell me about one of those celebrations at home?

PB:Well, Passover, we had something called the "Union Haggadah," which was a liberal Haggadah, I guess. They had had this when they lived in the Bronx, which is where they lived before they came. And we would do the seder. On Yom Kippur, he would say we had to throw our sins away, so we walked half a mile up to a stream not far from our house. And I remember thinking, "What sins?" You know? (laughs) Throw them into the river, walked home. So, I mean, they were not religious. They were more -- he wanted us to know we were Jewish and stay culturally connected. I don't remember doing Purim, except when I was very young, when we still had some connection with the religious community. But then, of course, I went to Brandeis. And I was the -- they did not actually -- the 18:00karmic joke was, when I went there and I would go to mixers, the boys would ask me my name and they did not recognize the name for being Jewish. And they came to meet Jewish girls, and they'd say, Oh, that's nice, and then move on. (laughs) They said, We came to meet Jewish girls. And before I could say, "But wait!" -- (laughs) -- they were gone. So actually, my first year at Brandeis, I only dated Christian boys. It wasn't until my third year I started dating Jewish boys, when I was a little bit better in my head about it.

DC:What do you mean by that?

PB:What do you --

DC:Being better in your head about it?

PB:Well, I mean, I was more accepting of who I was, and also knew how to handle people better. That's what I mean. In terms of not being slow to answer when (laughs) somebody said something like that. And also, not putting it out -- putting things out, you know? Or putting it out in a way that -- you know, if I 19:00thought it would matter -- you know, "My name is Barbanell, but of course I'm Jewish." You know, okay. So, that was not a -- put that to bed.

DC:You said that in your junior year, you had become a little more accepting of yourself?

PB:Yeah.

DC:Was there a time when being Jewish was harder for you to accept?

PB:Yeah. I mean, mostly because I was battling with my dad so much. It was hard, you know, for me. It's not that I ever wanted to be anything other than Jewish. It was just a hard thing, because I really didn't know what Jewish was -- obviously, because I wasn't brought up like so many people are. I sort of envied them. It would have been nice, you know, to have that nice cultural, religious thing, but it just didn't happen. And also, the kind of Jewish -- you know, as I 20:00say kind of Jewish, it was -- if it was going to be anything, would be a liberal Judaism. And there I was at Brandeis where, yeah, there were other people somewhat like me, but there were a lot of Conservative and Orthodox, of religious people, and that really wasn't me, you know? And I didn't -- in fact, my roommate the first year was a woman who was the daughter of a very famous rabbi in Chicago, and I never quite understood -- neither of us did -- why they put us together. She kept kosher, she was very religious, she had had the most rich Jewish education. There I was with nothin', you know? (laughs) But it was okay. We worked it out, but it was strange. It was kind of weird.

DC:Did you have any sense of what your father's problem with the synagogue in 21:00the next town over was?

PB:I know exactly what it was. (laughs) I was gonna skim over it. My father was an odd guy in a lot of ways. For some reason, because it was difficult for him to get us there every week, he thought that the people would be welcoming. Somebody new -- when we went the first time, nobody came to say hello, and my father, having spent a lot of his early years, as I told you, with overt anti-Semitism, was really hurt, I guess, more than anything. But my dad, when he got hurt, he got angry. And then, when it came time, they invited me and my brother to come to the youth activities. And my dad asked if they could help with some way to help get us there, 'cause he couldn't do it all the time, and 22:00they refused. And he basically said, "The heck with them." And that was it. And that was -- no more, you know? He just didn't like these people. That's my father. So, he didn't care. And I was sorry. I would have liked to have been part of it. But it's not like I had much to say at that age.

DC:How did your sense of Jewish community maybe change when you got to Brandeis?

PB:Are you kidding me? Have you ever been to Brandeis? Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't know how it is now, but it was a new school at that time. We celebrated the bar mitzvah of the school, you know? So, very new. Some people said that the school acted more like -- when they would talk about in loco parentis, it was more like a Jewish grandmother's than anything else. It was very strong Jewish community. It was a Jewish community at that time. There were people who weren't Jewish, 23:00but very strong identity. I never knew that, so that was how it changed. (laughs) Hello. You know, it was just -- I liked it. I liked being part of something. You know, I had never been part of a Jewish community, so I personally liked it. It was hard, because again, I was an outsider, because I really -- unlike most of the students who went there -- I didn't have -- come to it with this Jewish gestalt. You know, I didn't have that in a very strong way, or if I had it, it was not in the typical way. But nonetheless, I liked being in a place where everyone was Jewish. I felt it was a good thing. I didn't have to explain myself, you know? Yeah.

DC:So, after Brandeis, you decided to go back to New York, is that right?

PB:Well, what happened was, I went -- I'm trying to remember the sequence of 24:00events. Forgive me, I'm not sure I can. Anyway, I believe I went one year, and I didn't do well, because I didn't know how to study, actually. I had been second in my class and I was bright, but come Brandeis, I -- first of all, I didn't have the preparation that -- these kids from New York City and Boston and Chicago and other places had very solid, you know, high school. Our high school was third from the worst in all of Connecticut, and Connecticut at that time wasn't all that great anyway. So, I was in over my head academically. And I didn't know how to study. I never had to study, because I'm a bright kid and I whizzed through with A's -- straight A's -- all through high school. And then, I 25:00discovered social life. So, I flunked out the first year. I went home. And then, I went back after a year of living and working in Connecticut, in New Haven. And I did okay. I did all right. And then, they were -- it was now -- we're into 1963, '64, and -- I was gonna say, "And you may remember," but you don't remember. But (laughs) those were the years of the really, upsurgence of civil rights. It had been building -- the Freedom Riders and a lot of marches and things happening. But by '63, there was really a growing movement in the South for voter registration and voter rights. And coming around toward the summer of '64, three college students disappeared from Mississippi. I don't know if you've 26:00ever heard of that, but -- I'm glad to hear that, because a lot of people your age have not, or at least they don't remember that they did. Anyway, they disappeared. And at that time, they started to recruit college students somewhere around the northern -- and also probably California -- colleges, and Brandeis was one of them. And I think it was at Brandeis where they came around. And I wanted to sign up, but I needed my parents' signature. And I went home, and my father said no. I was really pretty astonished, because my parents always had told me they had black friends when they -- you know, during their movement days, and some of them had moved to Europe to get away from prejudice. So, I thought, My God, I was brought up for this. But my father was afraid I would get hurt. He didn't care it was black, but he was afraid I would get hurt. And of 27:00course, I was twenty years old; I knew better. You know, that's ridiculous. I have to say, my father was right on the money, but that's beside the point. I was very stubborn. So, come July 15th -- it was 1964 -- I turned twenty-one. And the next day, I packed my bags and went to Mississippi, because at the age of twenty-one, I did not need his signature anymore. So, off I went to do civil rights work in Mississippi. Is that what you asked me -- how I got involved in that? I can't remember where we started.

DC:I was about to ask you, so I'm glad that you got there. Yeah. What made you want to go down there? How did --

PB:Well, I mentioned my grandmother. I mean, and my parents. And I felt that -- I had always been brought up, as part of my Jewish upbringing, that Jews are not 28:00safe unless everybody's safe. Jews are not free unless everybody else are free. Because, you know, they'll come for them, and then they'll come for us. I mean, most likely. Even if it didn't, you'd have to assume that. And also, it's right. It's that simple. It's the right way to do things. You know, there should be nobody who's subjugated. Nobody. If I can vote, you should vote. If I live comfortably, you should live comfortably. That's basically how I was brought up. So, come the Civil Rights Movement, there was an opportunity to actually stop talking about it and hopefully do something about it. So, I was very happy to have that opportunity. It was that simple. I also had a boyfriend at the time who was going down there, and that seemed like a nice thing. Although I have to tell you, we were separated almost immediately, so if that was all there was, I probably would have packed my bags and come home. But, you know, it was irrelevant in the end. Yeah. I just wanted to help make things better. I was 29:00young enough to believe I could do it overnight. A few weeks in Mississippi and the world would change.

DC:So, what was it like when you --

PB:In Mississippi? Oh. (sighs) I'm trying to think of a simple way to say it. First of all, it was like nothing I had ever experienced. Nice little middle-class upbringing in Connecticut -- rural Connecticut -- and then in Boston, you know? The South at that time was another country. I mean, you've heard songs -- maybe you haven't, but there were songs about it. It was the Third World. I mean, there was not indoor plumbing in a lot of places. African Amer-- you know, black pla-- you know, homes -- many did not have indoor plumbing. Actually, there were white homes that didn't have indoor plumbing, as well, if that's a touchstone for something. It was segregated. It was dangerous. 30:00The Klan, the white supremacists, were fighting for their existence. And so, they were lethal. As we later that summer found out, they killed those three boys who had disappeared. My friend, who went down from Brandeis, he got shot -- not where I was, but somewhere else. I mean, these people were out for blood. The blacks could not shop in the supermarkets. They could not go to the library. They could not go to the movies, except maybe to sit in the back of the balcony. And it went on and on. The bookstore thing was particularly -- I never could quite come to grips with some of this, because I wanted to buy some books. People had sent a lot of books and were setting up little libraries in these 31:00Freedom Houses where we worked. So, we took what we had, and then I thought, Well, I have a few books. Let me go buy a couple books. And there was one bookstore in town. And as it turned out, the guy who owned the bookstore was Jewish. I went in there, and he said, "I can't sell to you." And I said, "But you're Jewish. I'm Jewish." And he felt really bad, but he said, "I have to live here. I have to live here. And if I sell you books, I'm in trouble in this town." And I thought, Oh my God. You know, I really began to understand what it meant. Because here's a man who really would have probably supported us, but for his own safety, he couldn't. So, that was that. But it was difficult. It was very difficult. The food -- the only place we could buy food was at, like, a mom-and-pop store, and the only food they got was stuff that was on the thin edge of going bad. So, I learned different ways to cook food to cover up the 32:00taste of thing-- you know, and how to also make things okay. I mean, it was a rough, rough, rough place to be -- for anyone, and particularly if you were born there and black.

DC:So, what kind of work were you doing?

PB:Well, all of us were doing voter registration. I mean, you understand that blacks couldn't vote. Very few had registered ever. And they certainly were not allowing anybody to vote -- to register. And also, they had set up what they called Freedom Schools, which was a place to do a little teaching to provide the young people -- they didn't have the same courses that the white schools had, so they didn't have a very good social studies curriculum, they didn't have foreign languages -- there was a whole bunch of stuff. That's how -- I showed you a 33:00curriculum of the Holocaust. That was one of the things -- you know, they had some curriculum that were designed for these schools, and the Holocaust was one. It was a way of teaching history, trying to make parallels between the Holocaust and the situation for blacks. What I taught -- we put out a question to the kids -- young people who were coming, what they wanted to learn, and they wanted to learn French. That's kinda funny, because I am, without doubt, the world's worst French student. I mean, I learned French in high school from a woman who didn't speak French, and then went to Brandeis, and since I had no background, I was thrown into French whatever -- it was 101 -- since I had had French, supposedly, and did very poorly. When I went to France years later, the funny thing is, I was able to speak French, 'cause I could speak French, but not in a very structured -- good way. But the kids wanted it, so that's -- I taught that. And 34:00I think I taught a little bit of English, because they also didn't have standard English -- you know, they had English, but they didn't -- they weren't taught by people who could speak standard English. So, that was what I did.

DC:Is there anything else you remember in particular from your time there?

PB:Well, yeah. I mean, one of the things I mentioned is the anti-Semitism. There were some people from Chicago, and their only experience with Jews in the ghetto up there had been with landlords and shopkeepers, and so they had some very negative things about Jews -- which they cho-- they took the opportunity of this, you know, summer of '64 to dump on me, since I was the only Jew (laughs) in this particular Freedom House. And being as young as I was, I just didn't know how to handle it. It was very hard. And I think they took glee in 35:00being able to make it difficult for someone. But my good luck was that there were some people -- some black people -- who understood very well what was happening, and they helped me through it. And actually, I'm ever grateful to them, because after that, nobody can ever dump anything on me that way. I mean, and I've had occasion to speak up and speak out and confront stuff, but nothing -- I mean, I learned inside and then outside how to deal with it. So, they gave me a tremendous gift, because I learned what to do with that and how to deal with it, and actually, how to maybe even make something positive out of it when it was coming my way. And I don't mean just for me. I mean, actually, I probably got more out of that experience than any of the blacks did. You know, just in terms of growing and learning, and being -- and Jewish. You know, my Jewish identity was part of it. It sounds strange, I know, but it's true. Yeah.

DC:So, how did your Jewish identity change --

PB:How did my what?

DC:-- Jewish identity change being down there?

PB:Hm. I think I learned how to express it. Because as I said, my identity -- my life -- had been different than a lot of people. But I learned -- I think I accepted it in a more deep way. I mean, I came to truly internally embrace it. And I learned how to articulate what I felt, what I thought, you know? And be who I was. There's something that just occurred to me, and this is sort of out of this content, so I've gotta say -- 'cause we've passed -- gone through it. One of the things that might be of interest to someone somewhere along the line 37:00is, my upbringing -- with my socialist, communist grandparents and socialist, communist parents -- has actually been studied. And they have a term for kids like me -- well, (laughs) kids like me -- and we're called "red diaper babies," because we were brought up with this kind of socialist worker movement as an underpinning for part of our growing up. So, if anybody's interested in that, I'm sure that there's stuff that has been written. Anyway, going back to how my identity changed -- I think I found my pride in all of it, you know? And I learned to separate myself from negative stuff that came at me in the form of anti-Semitism, because that's not me. That's not my people. That's not what we 38:00did. It's not what we do. And so, if somebody tries to paint me with that brush, it doesn't touch me, because that's not us, you know? And so, I can deal with it from that point of view. I don't know if I'm communicating it, but that's what happened. Before that experience, I couldn't do that. The makings of that were in me, but I did not know how to deal with it, how to say it, how to confront it, how to accept it, and how to separate myself from it.

DC:Yeah. Actually, I'm glad you brought it up -- could you just talk maybe briefly about what it was like sort of being a "red diaper baby," or what that meant?

PB:Well, that was a term I learned long after, you know, I had been this thing. Somebody years ago interviewed me and then said, "Oh, you're a red diaper baby." I said, "I'm a what?" (laughs) 'Cause I didn't know what -- I mean, I didn't 39:00have red diapers. No, but I understood. What did it feel like? Well, I think I've already talked about it. Because what it meant was that -- at least on my father's side, my grandparents -- my grandmother in particular, but I think my grandfather, too. I didn't know him; he died when I was very, very young. But my grandmother, definitely -- were movement people. They were revolutionaries. They didn't just talk the talk; they walked the walk. And they expected their children or their grandchildren -- they hoped that their grandchildren would do the same thing, because it was what they valued. So, I'm not the only one in my family who has gone down this path. You know, some have, some haven't, but I'm not alone. I had a cousin who went to Cuba before it was legal as a lawyer, and 40:00ended up defending Native American rights and things like that. And I've always been involved in this kind of thing. It's in the genes, is the best way I could say. I mean, I was brought up for this. And even though my father was no longer active, his true self expected me to step up to the plate, you know? And my mother, although this wasn't where she came from, she was proud when I took part in this, you know? So, that's not what is true for -- I came to learn -- that's not what is true for a lot of young people. So, I had this education. But it's interesting, 'cause my father was an engineer, and he was also a machine designer and an artist before that. At any rate, the early years in Connecticut, I told you, he worked for the aeroscience industry. And they did a top secret 41:00clearance for him, because he couldn't work on these things. He had worked on bomb sites during the war -- never did fight in World War II, because they needed his engineering skill to design the guns and the planes and stuff. But, so they did a top secret search to make sure he was one of us. (laughs) And something interesting popped out. When he was a young guy -- well, even when he was older -- he was always a science fiction fan. He always had piles and piles of science fiction around the house. And when he was young, he described a situation where he had bought a book, and as he was walking out of the store, some guy dressed in black or something -- (laughs) -- you know, like "Men in Black" -- (laughs) -- "Men in Black," you know, the movie? Anyway, they came and wanted to take the book from him. And he said, "No, you can't. I just bought it. I haven't read it yet." And they said, Well, the government doesn't want you to 42:00read it. He said, "I don't care." You know, being who he was, he said, "I don't care. I'm gonna read it, and then you can have it." That was the end of that. But it turned out the book was a description of the atomic bomb -- before they had dropped it on Japan. So, now it's the 1950s and they're doing a top secret clearance, and don't you know, this thing pops out and they said, What did you want with that book? So, dad was very sensitive to these things. And then, around that time there was the McCarthy era. And I remember, as a child -- we lived in that apartment house, and there was an incinerator in the basement. And I remember we had a bookshelf, and in that bookshelf, we had "Das Kapital," we had books by Lenin, by Marx -- just a whole -- I remember that. I clearly 43:00remember, 'cause I used to ask my father, "What are these books?" And he would tell me, "Well, that's from" -- whatever is young, you know, things. "When you get older, you can read it." There was one in particular I loved -- and it's the only one I still have -- and it was called "The Ruling Clawss" -- C-l-a-w-s-s. It was a comic book, actually. It was a book of illustrations -- what they would call now a -- what do they call those books where it's just pictures and not really text? There's a name for that. Anyway, forget it. So, my dad -- here it was, the McCarthy era -- brought me down to the basement, because he had gathered up all those books, except "The Ruling Class," 'cause he figured, a cartoon book they wouldn't have -- you know, know what to do with that. And he burned them all -- every single one of them -- in the incinerator that day. He was that scared. He was that scared. Because he felt between that and being Jewish, he could be fried. And don't forget, the Rosenbergs had been executed. 44:00It wasn't long after that. He was pretty scared, I think. But he wanted to make sure that I understood what was happening. So, there I am -- I was a young kid. I think my brother was with us too, but he was even younger -- but I must have been five or six years old. But I can still see the incinerator and the books and my father talking to me. So, he made sure. So that's, I guess, what it means being a "red diaper baby." I don't think that happens to someone whose parents are not involved in that. (laughs)

DC:Wow. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, let's move back. So, we were in Mississippi (laughs) when we started talking about this. Now, where in Mississippi were you?

PB:I was in Columbus, Mississippi, which is a college town in northeast, I think, Mississippi. And, you know, just a town. Just a town.

DC:Now, can you paint me -- sort of from there, where did you go? Just paint me kind of a brief picture.

PB:What happened after that?

DC:Yeah.

PB:Oh. Well, when the summer was over, some people stayed, but by then, I sort of had a sense that the problem was not just a Southern problem -- that there was plenty of things to do in the North if I wanted to. And this was 1964, and there was the Democratic Convention. I think Johnson was being nominated or something. I don't know. Anyway, so we went up to Atlantic City, which is where the -- that's before the casinos, you understand, this was just a beach -- you know, the old -- whatever the Atlantic City was -- and a convention hall. And what we were trying to do was get what they called the Mississippi Freedom 46:00Democratic Party seated. The Freedom Democratic Party were some black folks who, they hoped, would get seated instead of the Mississippi Democrats who, of course -- they had not allowed any blacks to vote or be part of the party, so they had this alternative slate. In the end, what they did was gave them a couple of seats at-large, but that really did not satisfy much of anything as far as we were concerned. But anyway, we picketed on the boardwalk up there. And what I really remember about that -- two things. Number one, there was a counter-demonstration to our demonstration. There was a group called the American Nazi Party, led by a guy named George Lincoln Rockwell -- I think that was his name. Anyway, so they show up on the boardwalk, complete in Nazi uniforms, goose-stepping all the way. (laughs) It was really kind of (makes 47:00sound of discomfort). I mean, it wasn't too scary, because there's this little group and there's a lot of people and the cops are there. But then, I guess, the Teamsters, who were very strong supporters of the Democrats at that point, showed up. And as I describe it, these are men without necks. I mean, they're (raises shoulders and extends forearms out, to imitate muscular men), okay? And they show up. And they started to pound -- they wanted to pound -- they had been in -- most of these men -- I mean, I'm makin' fun, but actually, not really, because these guys were veterans. And they had fought the Nazis -- the real Nazis -- in the real war. So, they came up, they were ready -- they wanted to pound these guys into the boardwalk. That was scary. That was really scary. 'Cause that violence was really scary. But the cops separated them. And the Nazis, being what they were, were cowards, and went running off and disappeared. But the Teamsters stayed around and sort of stayed with us and made sure they 48:00didn't come back again, for a while, anyway. So, that's what I remember of that. Interesting.

DC:Wow.

PB:Yeah.

DC:What were you studying at Brandeis?

PB:What was I studying?

DC:Yeah.

PB:(laughs) I laugh because at that point -- (laughs) -- actually, when I got back to Brandeis, I decided that college was irrelevant and the revolution was at hand. So, I finished out the year and then I left -- I dropped out -- and went to New York City. But what was I studying? I'm not sure, but it probably was sociology or something like that. And I went to New York City to make the revolution. And I went to the Lower East Side and stayed there a while -- for several years -- and then, you know, obviously, no revolution. All that I was was poor, living on the Lower East Side. (laughs) But it was fun, because there were still remnants of the old -- the very old Jewish community there. And that 49:00was a lot of fun, as long as it lasted. But, so then I went back to school.

DC:What do you remember about the Jewish community on the Lower East Side?

PB:Well, first of all, that was a strong community, and these people were -- I say, out of central casting -- they were wonderful. Like all your old relatives. And some of them were very poor, and that was sad, but most of them were okay -- or not poor. But I was. And I remember there was a bakery. I would go in there and I would buy a couple things. And the woman recognized that I was Jewish, so she'd always throw a couple things in, because she would take care of Jewish kids. And when somebody once said to me in one of these stores -- and I'm gonna butcher this, 'cause I don't speak Yiddish -- but, "Ales yid iz mayn mishpokhe." "All Jews are my family" is what she was saying. I can't talk Yiddish. And 50:00that's how it was, okay? My landlady was Jewish. But that wasn't a pretty picture, 'cause the neighborhood was changing, and they did not take care of the building. Eventually, it was torn down. But most of the people I met on the streets and in the neighborhood, it was a wond-- it was like going back in history, 'cause it was that kind of an old Jewish community. You know, these people had never left. The people who had left had, you know, become like my parents -- moved into different lifestyles, went to Long Island, Connecticut, uptown, wherever. But these folks were still there. And so, it was kinda touching, really. That's what I remember. And then, of course, there was all the hippie stuff, because the hippies were living there, of which I was one. So, Allen Ginsberg and that crew of crazy wonderful poets were there, and musicians. It was a wonderful place to be for a very short period of time. Yeah.

DC:Now, you say you don't know any Yiddish, but it sounds like you maybe picked up a little. Do you remember any words?

PB:Well, my parents used Yiddish as their secret language. Now, they didn't speak very well. But do I remember words? Yeah. I'm sure I do, but you're asking me to pull 'em right now -- you know -- "Nisht kayn seykhl [Nonsense]." I'm trying to remember. What else would they say? "Sheyne meydele [Pretty girl]." They talked in Yiddish, and I understood it. I realized how much I understood -- one day I was in Manhattan, I was in Washington Square Park in the West Village, and these people came up, and they were German, and they were speaking German. And I was talking to them, and all of a sudden, I realized that I understood them because they were speaking German, and I understood German because of the Yiddish. So, I don't know what to say, but to pull these words, I can't do that. 52:00I can't. And my husband and I have a very good friend who's Germ-- actually, among the Righteous, actually -- one of these folks. His family, not him -- he's too young -- but his father, his grandfather -- his grandfather actually sheltered Jews during the war. And Mark and he are always exchanging Yiddishism and German and they're -- kind of interesting to see how these words interplay, you know? So, I can't -- I'm not literate. It's just, sometimes things come to me.

DC:Yeah. So, you were on the Lower East Side. What kind of work were you doing?

PB:When I was there?

DC:Um-hm.

PB:On the West Side?

DC:No, on the Lower East Side.

PB:On the Lower East Side. Well, I was working -- separated from what was I doing there. I was working. At that time, I worked for the National Association 53:00of Broadcasters uptown. I mean, I had a job. I had a job job. So, I worked for the NAB and a couple other publishing companies at the time. And what I was doing down there was we were trying to get together and try and organize the community and to make things better. I mean, it was crazy stuff. At one point during all of this, there was a garbage strike. Manhattan -- well, New York City had a garbage strike. And I remember, we didn't know what to do. Nobody knew what to do. The garbage was piling up. And Allen Ginsberg, God bless him, had an idea. And it was the great garbage riot. He lived -- I'm trying to remember -- maybe on Tenth Street or Eleventh -- I lived on Eighth Street, okay? And he went -- took to the streets, and he got all of us -- everyone -- to dump all the 54:00garbage into the middle of the road. Well, I'll tell you, the city found a way to clean up the garbage when that happened. (laughs) They had to. They came in with the National Guard and cleaned the garbage up. But we did find, you know, sometimes there were things we could do that could organize people. But that's the thing that popped out, because it's so funny -- and yet, it worked.

DC:Now, can you just paint me kind of a quick picture of between then and now -- just because we don't have time for everything -- what happened?

PB:(sighs) (laughs) Oh, you mean my life?

DC:(laughs) Yeah.

PB:Well, I mentioned I went back to school. I moved uptown, I went back to school. I ended up getting a doctorate from Columbia University in art and education. And at one point before that, I actually moved to Ithaca and I lived for a while in Ithaca. I had a studio -- ceramics studio -- in Ithaca. That's 55:00where I met my husband, up there. And he actually lived in Albany, so it was just one of those happy serendipity things. And so, I moved to Albany to be with Mark. And then, I got jobs working in colleges and schools and teaching ceramics. Eventually, I got this doctorate. And I got work in museums. I had been working in the city in some of the museums. And so, I designed inter-curricular programs that integrated social themes, often with curriculum. And then, I got a job with the Schenectady school district, first as an arts and ed coordinator, which brought all of that social activism and my studies in art and education together. And I got a lot of grants, and was able to, I think, do 56:00good things in terms of expanding the horizons of all the students -- in different ways -- not just in, you know, left-wing causes, but in all kinds of ways, using the arts and using history and integrating things in innovative ways. How short do you want it to be? The last grant I worked on was kind of -- it's interesting when you think out of the box -- we were able to get a National Science Foundation grant to develop interactive video conferencing in collaboration with art and social museums and organizations in the schools. So, it was ten million dollars. We had a ride, I'll tell you. We had about several hundred school districts and about a hundred different museums involved in this. It was really great fun. And so, that was the last thing. And I've retired. And 57:00still, my husband's a partner in life, and he does his own thing -- you know, social stuff and political. And so, we still go to, you know, marches, or he gets involved in stuff, and so do I sometimes. And here I am, talking to you. (laughs)

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

DC:You talked about trying to integrate arts and social themes. What, maybe, as a teacher, have you been trying to pass on to students? Or what do you think -- it's important to communicate?

PB:Well, the most important thing, in my opinion -- and it's really something that I learned in the Civil Rights Movement as much as anywhere -- well, first of all, people need to own it, whatever it is. If you're gonna advocate or work on some project or something, you're best if you own it, if it's part of you. So, when I'm teaching, I try to teach in a way that'll make my students -- 58:00whoever they are -- own it. Because then I know they know it. They may not know it or own it like I do, but they own it, so they can use it and make it happen. And what am I trying to teach? I want people to think. I want them to be able to think. And I want them to be able to think clearly and critically, so that they can see the good and the bad in what's happening. And then, you know, I have my own ideas what should happen, but I have a lot of faith in people and humanity. And so, I really do believe, for the most part, when people can think -- have learned how to think and learn how to express what they think and they're true to themselves -- they own it, so to speak -- that they will choose a -- they will end up on a good path and make good things happen. So, that's what I try to 59:00teach. And, you know, I can put the content layer over it and say how I did this and that in this context to hopefully make that happen, but that's the core of it.

DC:Are there any particular memories that stand out to you from your years of teaching? Anything that worked really well or didn't work well?

PB:(laughs) Well, like everything else, it was never -- I never had a -- you know, an ordinary career with this. I came to it late. I used to say I was the oldest first-year art teacher in America -- which was probably true, 'cause I had worked on projects. And then, at the young age of sixty-one or something -- I used to say of the district I worked in, "No good deed went unpunished," and funding changed, and they thought they could make me quit before I retired by putting me into one of the worst assignments in the district with these very, 60:00very difficult kids who were gang members. And some of them were, let's just say, socially and mentally divergent -- were disabled. But I loved it. I had taught in the prisons at one point, so nothing they threw at me was gonna matter (laughs) in that sense. So, some of my fondest memories are from that. But I don't know how relevant it is. I mean, these kids would think they had my number, and then I would turn around to them and say things like, "You don't know who I am and you don't know where I've been." And I was thinking of Mississippi and the Jewish and everything. "So you better watch what you do with me." Or, you know, I'd tell them I taught in the prisons -- which was true -- 61:00and that usually got them in line, because they had no idea -- you know. And that goes back to not being afraid -- you know, knowing who I am. So, when these characters -- and they are -- actually, some of them are wonderful kids -- really, truly. And, you know, if you really know who you are and you really like them -- and they know when you like them -- then ninety-nine percent of the job is done.

DC:Yeah. So, I'm thinking about -- well, you've talked a little bit about your parents kind of communicating political values to you that showed up later in your work.

PB:Um-hm.

DC:How did you see your politics evolve as you got older?

PB:Nobody's ever asked me that. How did they evolve? Well, as a young person, I 62:00thought all things are possible. I mean, I still think so, but not quite the same way. I thought that you really could change the world overnight. Well, you can sometimes, but it's a very rare thing. At the least, I've come to learn that. I used to think that something akin to socialist ideal could -- was the best way to be, and now I've come to learn that any system is only as good as the people in it. And socialism or communism -- or our traditional democracy, which I incidentally love and it's fine -- it works fine as far as I'm concerned -- that's not the problem. The problem is who we let take it over, you know? But 63:00the system is an amazing system. So, I guess I've become a lot more tolerant and more patient, if anything, and not so doctrinaire.

DC:Sure. What about Jewishly? Are you involved in any Jewish communities?

PB:No, still not. I mean, I read a lot more about Judaism. I read a lot, actually. But the thing about Jewish communities is that the people in them are people who have been in Jewish communities, and so it's still not altogether comfortable, because that's not where -- you know, not how I grew up. I do go sometimes, and it's nice, but I do more reading than I do jumping into these groups. But I'm not a big joiner in general of groups. Sometimes I've been -- I mean, there are things I've been involved with, like the art teachers or 64:00education -- I mean, I've been in leadership positions. But in general, when it came to being a rank-and-file member of anything, I've never really been there, you know? So, I guess if I was gonna do what my cousin's wife did -- and she became a rabbi -- well, maybe then I'd be part -- (laughs) -- you know, I'd really study it and be part of it. So, I don't know. That's kind of a weird way to put it, but still not particularly. Sometimes I wish I would, but I know that it's just -- it just doesn't fit. That's all I can say. It doesn't fit. And I don't know why, but it doesn't. I think it's 'cause people who are in the community centers are people who grew up in them, and they have families and structures that these are made for. And I don't. And I don't have children. I don't have family in the area. I wish I did. It would be nice, 'cause I'd love to be part of that, but I don't. So, where do I fit in that?

DC:So, I'm curious -- as you're thinking about that -- being separate -- what is a time maybe that you have felt particularly Jewish?

PB:What is a time what?

DC:That you have felt particularly Jewish?

PB:Well, I always feel Jewish. Funny -- (laughs) -- don't laugh at these -- during the Six Day War, on the streets of Manhattan -- and I had brought up to believe that it was a wonderful thing, what had happened in Israel. And there were these guys -- I think they were Hasidim -- I don't know, they had boxes, and collecting money. And I don't give money, in general, on the street. I give a lot of money, you know, but not on the street, to strangers. And I just -- it was one time I absolutely felt, Oh, I have to. I have to make sure that I do 66:00what I can. That was one time. I'm trying to think of another that stands out that way. Oh, boy. It's tough. I mean, I think when my Judaism is challenged, that's when it is -- when I feel strongest. You know, don't tell me I'm not Jewish. Don't tell me what kind of Jew I am. I am a Jew. That is who I am. It's that simple. And so, when that is challenged in any number of ways, I'm ready to fight.

DC:Sure. And what does being Jewish mean to you now, maybe?

PB:Well, it's who I am. I mean, it's who I am. And I'm proud of it. I mean, I see things that happen in the name of Judaism that I don't like sometimes, but I'm proud. I'm happy I'm Jewish. I like being Jewish. It's who I am. That's it.

DC:Sure. What about Yiddish? What do you see Yiddish as being for Jews now?

PB:Well, I think it's a great language. I think there's an incredible history of literature and culture embedded or integrated with Yiddish. And I wish I was literate in Yiddish, 'cause I'd like to read about it, and I only can read about it in translation. But I really don't know, at this point in history, how it's gonna survive. Certainly, this place will help -- you know, will possibly help it to survive in some way. Which is why I've -- you know, give money and read a lot of what you publish and what you -- I say "you," I don't even know if you're really part of it other than the interview, but what the organization does, you 68:00know? So, but whether it will survive -- 'cause it's not a -- I don't know, it's not a living language in, like, ordinary -- I guess it is for some people, but people have to learn it and relearn it. And there are, I guess, people -- there are a certain number of people who are born and brought up with the language, but in terms of the languages of the world, it's not a major language in that sense, I don't think. But then again, they created, you know, the Hebrew in Israel, so who knows? I don't really know. But I think it's a beautiful thing. So, I have no clue about whether it's gonna survive or not. Or, you know, how to look at it in terms of -- I don't remember what you asked me. (laughs) Am I answering your question?

DC:Yeah.

PB:(laughs) Okay.

DC:Yeah. Well, so you mentioned maybe reading some Yiddish in translation.

PB:Yeah.

DC:Yeah. Is there a piece of Yiddish writing or maybe Yiddish film or something that you've particularly liked or that's meant something to you?

PB:Well, the one I think I told you, that book -- I think it was in Yiddish -- about the Ukraine. And I wish I could re-- something about, "When We Were Afraid"? Or, "Before" -- you know, something like that. "Before We Were Afraid"? "After We Were Afraid"? I don't know. But anyway, this -- the book I remember -- I'm not good at names -- truth is that years ago, I forgot my mother's first name. This is a happy moment. Hello, this is my mother! And my mind went blank. So, you know, I'd like to say it's a question of age, but I've never been -- and it probably is -- but I can't remember a lot of things. But I have a lot of 70:00books and I read a lot of books about things Jewish -- you know, communities -- Jewish. And I read the magazines that come from here. And some of it's in translation. But the one that has meant the most is the one I said -- you know, that somehow, I felt that's just part of me. Definitely part of me.

DC:Great. So, I guess the last thing I want to ask you is -- as you're thinking about, you know, you spent all this time as an educator and working with students in Mississippi and in prisons and in New York State, what's a piece of advice that you try and pass along to your students?

PB:(laughs) I've been asked that. I mean, first of all, there is no piece of advice in particular. But when asked, I think the thing is that -- it's yours. 71:00When I was young, when we were young -- people my age -- we seized this thing. We were gonna change the world. We tried to reshape everything in our image, because we thought we could change things. And so, we revisit it -- well, now, it's, you know, fifty, sixty years later. I could tell you what I think, but it's not mine; it's yours. You know, so you -- "you" particular or "you" in general -- you have to find out what it is that is you and that matters to you, and then do it. Follow it. Develop it. It's yours. Own it, you know? That's what I always hope will happen. So, what do I think? I could tell you a million things, but it doesn't matter what I think, because it's yours. And I'm waiting 72:00to see where the young people lead us. I'm not looking, at this point, necessarily to lead them. Where, you know? I mean, I could lead them, but -- no, it's their -- show me where you're gonna go, and I'll follow, I hope. You know?

DC:Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I guess we've kinda come to the end. I just want to ask you before we finish up, is there any other story you'd want to tell or anything else you want to talk about?

PB:I'm sure I'll wake up in the middle of the night tonight and say, "Why did I" -- let me look at my list. I don't think so. I explained to you, I have a list of -- when I tell stories -- I think I probably -- oh, there's lots of little stories, but nothing of great importance here. No. But, no. That's it.

[END OF INTERVIEW]