KATARZYNA CZERWONOGORA ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA-SHEPPARD: This is Agnieszka Ilwicka-Sheppard, and today is 25th February, 2015. I'm here in Yad Vashem in Jerusalem in Israel with Katarzyna Czerwonogóra, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Katarzyna Czerwonogóra, do I have your permission to record this interview?

KATARZYNA CZERWONOGORA: Yes, you do.

AIS:Thank you very much. I would like to start with a question about your family background. Could you please briefly tell me about your family background?

KC:Sure. I was born in 1985 in Poland in a small village in Dolny Śląsk, which 1:00is part of Poland -- which used to be Germany before the Second World War, and after the war, in the process of shifting the borders, it became Poland. And I was born and raised up in a small village called Siecieborowice. And that's where my family lived. And that's where I lived until I was thirteen. And I was brought up in a Polish family -- not very traditional, but we celebrated Christmas and all the Catholic holidays. The family -- with some interest in Jewish culture also, I think, beyond what's typical for a Polish family, but without any references to Jewish tradition or culture as part of our own heritage.

AIS:Could you please explain me -- how is that happened that your family end up in Dolny Śląsk?

KC:Both of my parents were born in Dolny Śląsk in the '50s. My father was born in Wałbrzych. My mother was born in Wrocław. And their parents came from the east after the war. As I mentioned, in the process of shifting borders, Poland gained this western part, which used to be Germany. And a huge number of people simply settled down there after the war. My mother's family comes from the area of Lublin and Lwów, which is today Ukraine. And my father's family comes originally from the area of Warsaw and Poznań. So after the war, all these 3:00people came to Wrocław and Wałbrzych and settled down there. So, I'm just the second generation that was born there.

AIS:Could you please describe your neighborhood growing up? Who lived there?

KC:So as I said, I grew up in a village of about forty houses -- forty families. It was a Polish village. And my neighbors were Polish Catholic, except for one family, which was -- Jehovah Witnesses. And actually, my best friend -- the best friend of my childhood was their daughter. And I had a very careless -- (laughs) you can say -- no, not careless -- I had a very nice childhood in a village. I 4:00spent a lot of time in the nature. And yeah, you know, my life was about going to school, going to the church, and going to the city with my mom to see exhibitions or listen to some concerts.

AIS:So what was the religion of your home?

KC:It was Catholicism. We were -- I mean, my father was not very active (laughs) in this field. And I was told that this is because he's just -- because of his political views. And my mother was Catholic. And we celebrated Christmas and Easter with her family always.

AIS:And what were the political views of your father?

KC:Leftist in general. I mean, you know, as a child, I didn't have a lot of knowledge (laughs) about politics, so I couldn't really understand -- what is 5:00his political views. He was anticlerical. That was his main political view, which for me, later, became part of his leftism, because this is what it is in Poland.

AIS:So, who were the people in your home with whom you grown up? Do you have sisters, brothers?

KC:I have one sister. She's seven years older than me. And that's it. There were the two of us. And my parents. And mainly the family from my mother's side. I mean, until the age of eighteen, I knew only one person from my father's immediate family -- his sister. I mean, of course, and my grandmother, but she 6:00died when I was a child, so I don't remember her so much.

AIS:So, during your childhood, what were the most important holidays or events during the year of your family? Did you have a favorite holiday?

KC:Christmas, of course. It was all about getting presents and all the family together -- and, you know, Christmas tree.

AIS:Do you celebrate Christmas today?

KC:No. (laughs)

AIS:I would like to ask you a little bit about -- your youth camps. You mentioned in the PIQ, which I have sent you earlier, that the youth camps were an important part of your life. How did you end up in the youth camps and summer camps?

KC:Ah, so you're talking about Jewish youth camps?

AIS:Yeah.

KC:Oh, so that's part of my teenage already. At some point, we discovered that 7:00my grandfather from my father's side was Jewish. I didn't know him -- he died in 1965. He was a Holocaust survivor. And so, we didn't know about that. I never knew much about my grandfather and about this side of my father's family. And at some point, we found out that he was Jewish. So I was about thirteen then. And I was just moving to the bigger city -- to Wroclaw. And there, I found the Jewish community, and out of curiosity, simply, I started to go there -- to learn some more about my family history. And immediately, I was enrolled into their youth programs. I think they were very hungry for (laughs) -- for young blood. It was, 8:00you know, more than fifteen years ago, or about fifteen years ago, when the Jewish life in Poland was just starting to -- its revival. And from there, I went to Taglit, which is the Birthright trip to Israel. And I went for a couple of youth summer camps, which aimed at reconciliation of the Jewish youth in Poland -- of creating networks between us, of educating us, giving us some Jewish background. Because as I learned then, most of us didn't have any Jewish background. We were raised up in mixed Catholic families, usually, without any Jewish background. So these youth camps, organized by the Jewish youth organization, which was back then PUSZ, Polska Unia Studentów Żydowskich, and 9:00later, ZOOM, Żydowska Ogólnopolska Organizacja Młodzieżowa -- these organizations were trying, with the support of Joint Distribution Committee, Taube Foundation, and other funding, mostly from the States -- they were trying to bring us together. And to also use our strength to clean the cemeteries, for example, old Jewish cemeteries -- in small places, in Galicia. So we would go there for a week or two, stay together -- you know, hang around together, fall in love with each other, (laughs) and clean some cemeteries in the middle, cry a little bit -- had some traumas about our identities. And in the end, it was all about building our self-confidence -- our Jewishness -- in a little ambivalent 10:00environment for that, which is Poland.

AIS:How about your parents? How did they -- did they support you in becoming a Jew?

KC:Oof. (laughs) Well, I'm not sure if they're aware of the fact that I'm becoming a Jew (laughs) or that I became a Jew. But if you put it that way -- you know, I was a teenager. I mean, at that time, my Jewish project was part of my youth rebellion against my parents, also, who didn't tell me -- or my father, who didn't tell me about his Jewish background. So, you know, it's complicated. It's difficult to say what was part of our generational conflict, what was part 11:00of the Jewish issue. But I never saw any opposition from their side. I never heard, like, You're not allowed to go. I was a very independent teenager, and my parents gave me a lot of freedom. So they would -- you know, they were more or less interested. And my mother was supporting even my project. I mean, they were happy. I'm going for holidays with peers. So, maybe it was a little strange that these are Jewish peers, for them, but they were fine about it -- in general.

AIS:Kasia, I would like to ask you about your educational background. Could you please briefly tell me and describe me, how does the education system look in Poland, and to what you went?

KC:Sure. So at the age of five, I joined the public schooling system in Poland. 12:00And I've done half a year of preschool. And then I joined the primary school, which was back then eight years. Now, after all the reforms, it's different, but back then, it was eight years of education. And seven years of this I did in the village when I grew up, so it was a small public school with small classes, very cozy atmosphere, and a lot of attention to pupils. And then when I was thirteen, I moved to Wroclaw, to the bigger city. And there, I did my high school. It was a private high school, also small and with a lot of attention for pupils. After four years of high school, I did my final exam and I studied sociology in 13:00Kraków at the Jagiellonian University. And that's where I've done my MA about Jewish women. (laughs) And then I started on my PhD. And now I'm still there. (laughs)

AIS:In your high school, were you the only one Jewish person?

KC:As far as I'm concerned, yes. But back then, it was still a process for me. Using your word, I was not yet a Jew -- I was just exploring this identity. So, I didn't look for other Jews in my school. I mean, altogether, we had, like, 120 pupils in my school. So, I would probably know. But it was not an issue. I mean, that was pretty early for me. So, I don't know. Later, I found out someone has 14:00Jewish roots, but at that time, I didn't have any Jewish peers at school.

AIS:And why did you decide to study in Kraków?

KC:Oh, you know, for an adventure. For -- (laughs) -- to escape family bonds. To explore something new. Also, because there was this Jewish Culture Festival in Kraków, so I felt like, Wow, in Kraków I can really explore Jewish life more than in Wroclaw.

AIS:And how were you involved in the Jewish life in Kraków?

KC:So in Kraków, I volunteered once for the Jewish Culture Festival, but I realized this is not exactly my way. And actually, the holidays before I went to 15:00study in Kraków, I went to Israel for a Taglit trip. And that's where I met some Jewish peers from Kraków. So when I moved to Kraków, I immediately had some connections. And very soon, there was this initiative of, I think, two or three people from this group. It was Daniela, who is now in Israel also, and two other people, who came with this idea of creating a Jewish youth group in Kraków. And it was a nonformal circle of students of Jewish background who met once a week and discussed their identity and tried to come up with some educational project at some point. And that became Jewish Association Czulent at 16:00some point. And we were a group of fifteen, twenty people, maybe, of Jewish background who would organize Jewish holidays, Shabbat dinners, Hebrew classes, lectures, movie screenings. We organized a Jewish library in Kraków. Yes. And from that, I also started to be part of what's now Jewish Community Centre in Kraków, opened just a few years ago. And also, there, I used to spend afternoons and -- not only volunteering -- I would say, more like getting from 17:00there than volunteering. But that was my main space of activity right before I left Kraków to Warsaw for my doctorate.

AIS:I know that you also had a brief episode of studying Jewish studies in Kraków.

KC:Oh, yeah. But that was a very short episode. (laughs) I mean, when I came to Kraków, I applied to study sociology.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AIS:I would like to ask you about your teachers. Did you meet some mentors, people who inspired you?

KC:Yes. Yes. And actually, the work of the mentor plays a big role in my education. It was my history teacher in high school, Andre Polinski, who strongly encouraged me to do some research about the Jewish community in 18:00Wroclaw. Indirectly, he encouraged me to also explore my Jewish identity. But he was an amazing teacher, a very devoted pedagogue. He would spend a lot of time with his students, after school even, to discuss with us political issues and history. And he was the first one who really discussed with me these Jewish issues -- who helped me understand the role of Jews in Poland -- let's say, of Jews in the Polish history, and to see the diversity of Jewish culture in Poland. And he encouraged me to write this essay for a competition in the Jewish 19:00community in Wroclaw. And this was my first research (laughs) about Jews -- an essay about the Jewish community in Wroclaw -- about the synagogue, Synagoga Pod Białym Bocianem -- in high school. So, then I left high school. And then, after having this experience of being mentored by him, I missed this a lot through my studies. I used to have good teachers. I think my main mentor in the university was an anthropologist, Grażyna Kubica-Heller. I've learned a lot from her. And she played a role in my educational development. And now it's my supervisor, 20:00Bożena Chołuj, who's supporting my research and -- since I don't live anymore in Europe. But here, our contact is more difficult. I'm still searching here -- someone who can be my mentor also. (laughs) In Israel.AIS:And what is your research topic about?

KC:Ah, so my PhD is about the emancipation of Jewish women in the early Zionist movement. I'm talking about the historical period of late nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century in Poland and Germany, or what was Polish lands and the Russian partition and German partition and Prussia. So, it's the very early stage of the Zionist movement.

AIS:How did you came up with this idea?

KC:I came up with this -- actually, it's like a branch of idea from my MA work, 21:00which was a sociological work about Jewish women in Kraków today -- I mean, today -- (laughs) -- it was a few years ago already. It was about the role of Jewish women in the community today. And I've talked to fifteen women who are active in the Jewish community in Kraków now. And I simply asked them what is particular about being a Jewish woman in Poland, and how do they see their role -- or what's the potential of being a member of the Jewish community, and what are the bad sides of it? But yes, it was a sociological work, but I needed to have some historical background to do this work. And that's when I discovered that there is simply no research about the history of Jewish women in Poland 22:00published in Polish. And I was very disappointed and frustrated. I was like -- this fact of discovering, Hey, there's, like, absolutely no book about women in Bund, the socialist Jewish movement, or women in the religious movements or women in the Zionist movement. And this is where it all started. This is where it was happening. So, how come we don't have any research? And I was particularly unhappy, because there was already a lot of research about the history of Polish women in Poland. I mean, there were organizations. We had then more or less written the history of feminism in Poland -- maybe not very extended research about that, but you're gonna have some materials. And then 23:00there was, like, almost nothing about Jewish women. And there were fewer publications which included Jewish women. But Jewish women simply didn't exist in most of the -- researches that I saw in Poland. So I had to use English sources. And there was a lot. But they were missing a lot of content. And I thought, They're missing understanding of Polish language, for example, and a lot of sources were in Polish. So, that's so neat, you know? Someone has to do that. Why -- like, who, if not me, let's say? (laughs) Let's put it this way. I thought, I have a passion to do that. And I have some tools, because I knew Polish, I knew English, I knew some German then. And I thought, Okay, I have to learn Yiddish, because I saw that the sources are or in Polish or in Yiddish or 24:00in German. And maybe at some point, I will also learn Hebrew. But at that time, it wasn't the point. I was also not sure whether I want to do research about Zionist women. I just knew that I want to do some historical research about Jewish women in Poland. Yeah. And then I decided to apply for a doctorate in Kraków. And I started then. And after a few months, I also got this scholarship from Berlin in the project of the Social Science Center in Berlin. And I moved to Warsaw to work with my supervisor, with Bożena Chołuj, who is a specialist in gender studies and in literature studies in Germany and in Poland. And then, at some point, I decided to focus on Zionist women in particular. Actually, a little bit against my own (laughs) political views, because at that time, I was 25:00rather involved in leftism and I didn't think positively about any national movement, also about Zionism. I mean, that was part of my political identity also, to -- not to like Israel too much. And to believe that the Jewish culture is more like Yiddishkayt and that Israel is not something that is part of my identity. And that it's my project, actually, to be a person of Jewish origin in Poland and to do research about Jews in Poland and to come from this position -- not to agree for a Zionist project, not to agree that Jewish life is possible 26:00only in Israel. Yeah. And then I thought, Okay, if so, then why women join Zionist movement? My logic was like this: I knew that there were some nationalist movements which were framed for women's emancipation in Europe in nineteen and twentieth century, but I knew also that there is a lot of ambivalence between feminism and nationalism. So, I wanted to understand why women decide to join the nationalist movement, which so many times is against women's emancipation, because nationalist ideologies see women often just as mothers and -- reproductors. And they don't see their emancipation as a goal itself. They see their emancipation, maybe, as a tool of building the nation and 27:00not -- so they're instrumentalizing women. So I thought, Okay, let's see why, then, many Jewish women from Poland -- or from Polish territories -- decided to join the Zionist movement. And it became my PhD project in the end -- to explore that issue.

AIS:Did you get support in academia for your project?

KC:(laughs) No. Yes and no. I mean, when I applied to write my doctorate, I actually applied with a Holocaust project. I wasn't sure yet what I want to do, and I had some knowledge about women's voices in the Holocaust -- after reading Nechama Tec book. So I applied to the project of researching gender narratives 28:00-- researching Holocaust narratives from the gender perspective. And I went to the exam -- because this is how it goes in Poland, you apply and then you're invited for a talk -- and one of the members of the committee told me that when he hears gender, he's, like, falling down. So there was no place for a real academic discussion, because he was just prejudiced ideologically. And I didn't have a chance to explain him that gender is just one of the perspectives that you use in the research. And I had an impression that the members of the committee are not really aware of many changes that (laughs) happened in the previous years in the academy in this field. But there was one woman in the 29:00committee who supported my project. And I think I owe her the fact that I am -- go to the academy. She probably convinced other people. And then, I started to do my PhD in Kraków, where I did my MA And that was a pretty friendly environment for feminist research. Or even -- I wouldn't say that I was doing feminist research explicitly, because feminism was one of the tools -- maybe feminist perspective was one of the tools for me. It provided me with some methodology. But it wasn't -- I was not trying to prove anything from the beginning, like, that feminism is better for Jewish women than Zionism. I came from, you know, academic interests. Intellectual curiosity.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

I realized, probably, that the result might be the opposite -- that actually, Jewish women prefer to be Zionists than feminists. Anyway, the beginning was pretty cool. I mean, we were only girls and women there. My supervisor was a woman, who actually started gender studies in sociology in Kraków. And we were all doing some research from feminist perspective or from gender perspective or queer -- so it was a very friendly place. But the problem was, that there was a little space for critical perspective on my work. What I mean is that I was doing more historical research and research about Jewish women, and although the 31:00atmosphere there was very friendly, I missed some stimulation in this -- from someone who knows more, who can tell me, You're wrong here, you should read this. I mean, like, This is superficial, what you're doing. Things like that. That's why I was trying to search for another place. And my MA supervisor from Kraków, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska, she was strongly encouraging me to apply to go to Warsaw or somewhere else, where I might find some more stimulating environment -- academic environment. And people in Kraków were very encouraging also. My supervisor was saying that she would help me because she understands that this is what I need. And then next year's -- but just to sum up, it was a 32:00very friendly place, but I had a feeling that we were kind of a niche there, and that we are doing our gender stuff in our small room, but except for this room, we're not really recognized as serious academics. We are treated as politicians or, you know, some ideological freaks that are doing their research who -- that is methodologically weak and nobody is interested in. And actually, my very good experiences started when I decided to go abroad, when I applied for this program in Berlin and I started to participate in the seminars outside of Poland, where I could see there is more understanding for my research as an academic research and a lot more critique. And I can't say one thing about that. There were good 33:00moments and bad moments. In general, there is not a lot of money for this kind of research in Poland. I am doing my PhD for five years now, and I got four fellowships from abroad. I got this one fellowship from the Berlin Social Science Center, I got a fellowship from the Hebrew University, I got a fellowship from Hadassah-Brandeis Institute, and I got a fellowship from the Leo Baeck Institute in London. And all these years, I didn't even get one zloty or one dollar from Poland, even though I applied many times. And that's weird for 34:00me. I mean, I don't know, maybe people in Poland think it's not a good project. Maybe there's something more behind it. I don't know. But yeah, I know from other colleagues that it's difficult to find funding for gender projects. And when you do a Jewish gender project or a project about Jewish women, it's a double burden and a double -- how do you say? Double benefit. I mean, these topics are pretty fashionable now -- Jews and women in Europe -- so there is a lot of interest in this kind of research. But at the same time, every time you get a fellowship, you hear that this is because -- like, You got this fellowship 35:00from your fellow Jews because they -- only Jews fund the Jewish projects, or Germans, because they are -- you know, they feel guilty, so they have to give money for Jewish projects, even if these projects are not worth anything. I mean, you can discuss it -- what is the historical background of the fact that Germany supports research in Jewish studies. But many times in Poland, I heard that I got my fellowships -- for which I worked pretty hard -- I get them only because I'm Jewish, and I get them from Jewish institutions. Which is true in two cases only.

AIS:Kasia, I would like to ask you -- to change the subject a little bit -- how did you learn Yiddish?

KC:Now that's a story. (laughs) No, I'm kidding.

AIS:And also, if you could say a few words about Hebrew -- on the beginning of your education.KC:Right. So for a long time, I thought that if Jewish language, then Yiddish, because I had this image of Yiddishkayt. I thought, I'm coming from Yiddishkayt. If I'm becoming a Jew, I'm becoming a diasporic Jew. So because of my location, Yiddish will be my Jewish language. And if I ever thought I will sing Jewish lullabies to my children, I would never think I would sing it in Hebrew -- I would sing it in Yiddish. And it's funny that today, it's actually more natural for me to sing a lullaby in Hebrew to my daughter than in Yiddish. Because, of course, the most natural way is to sing the Polish lullabies that I know by myself from my childhood, but Hebrew lullabies I 37:00learned from my in-laws and from my husband. And a Yiddish lullaby is something artificial that doesn't come naturally for me. It's not an intuitive thing. And if I do that, it's -- I feel like there is an ideological and political content in this. (laughs) Because I'm also doing it in Jerusalem, in Israel. So it's not innocent, let's put it this way. And I started to learn Yiddish in order to be able to do my research. And my first encounter, actually, with Yiddish -- with learning Yiddish -- was at the Jewish Culture Festival, which has in its program Yiddish workshops. And by then, they were led by Przemek Piekarski from the 38:00Jagiellonian University. And that's where I started. And then I also joined his classes at the Jagiellonian University. You mentioned that I studied Jewish studies for a while, and indeed, at the beginning of my studies, I did two paths. I started studying sociology and Jewish studies -- and there, I had a little Yiddish, also. But I soon quit. I couldn't combine these two studies, and I was much more interested in sociology than in Jewish studies back then. But I joined Przemek Piekarski's classes in Kraków. And then, after moving to Warsaw, I also joined classes of Karolina Szymaniak and Agata Kondrat in the Yiddish Cultural Center in Warsaw. And that's the formal education in Yiddish. But I 39:00think that most of what I know in Yiddish I learned by myself, by reading sources, simply. Yeah. And I can't say I know Yiddish today. I'm using Yiddish in my work, in my research. I'm reading Yiddish. But I don't speak Yiddish. I didn't have many chances to speak Yiddish. And paradoxically, it's Hebrew that is my Jewish language, that is the language of my everyday life now, and not Yiddish, as I (laughs) -- as I imagined could be.

AIS:Before we will talk about the place of Yiddish in your work, I would like to ask you about aliyah. How has that happened that you decided to be in Israel?

KC:So I've been living in Israel for two years now. I came to live here for six 40:00months at first because I got a fellowship from the Rosenzweig Minerva Center at the Hebrew University. And I didn't intend at the beginning to stay; I just wanted to learn some Hebrew and to spend some time in the Israeli academy. But soon, I realized that this place is much more interesting than I thought, and there's a lot, a lot of sources for me, and that I want to learn Hebrew better than what I did during the six months. And I was, like, searching for an opportunity to spend more time here. And in addition to that, I met someone -- I got into a romantic relationship with an Israeli whom I met at the university. So that was an additional factor (laughs) that encouraged me to come here. And 41:00three years later -- yeah, I'm here. I married him and we have a child and I'm living here. And the moment of deciding to take Israeli citizenship was actually when I was pregnant. For a long time, it was difficult for me to think of taking Israeli citizenship. 'Cause I thought, First of all, if I'm a Jew, I'm a diasporic Jew. And second of all, you know, I was coming from this leftist background, which encouraged me to think that until this conflict here with native Palestinians is not solved, I don't want to be part of this project, 42:00because I thought it's harmful for a lot of people. And even though I still think it's harmful -- what's happening here -- I think after these two years, maybe I have a broader look on this situation. And I didn't come up with any solution. (laughs) But I also decided not to escape this situation. I mean, I decided to face it, to challenge it. And not accidentally, we live in Jerusalem. Not in Tel Aviv, for example, which is a little bit of a political bubble. It's actually here when you can face the challenges of this place. And yeah, but it's difficult. It's difficult (laughs) to take Israeli citizenship. But the truth is, I just very much wanted to have a Bituach Leumi, which is the (laughs) 43:00national insurance, and to be an equal citizen here after marrying an Israeli person, not to be here as a person who is just a partner of someone with a partnership visa. I wanted to be an equal citizen here, and through this, gain more agency. And at some point, hopefully, I will be able to contribute more to the general situation here. Right now, it's more that I'm -- I'm still not there, yeah? It's like, my first election's next month, and I have a few experiences of social or political activity, but I still haven't found my niche. I still haven't found my place for political activity.

AIS:Could you please tell me about this fascinating political party of religious women?

KC:(laughs) So just recently, I've learned that there's a new party of Haredi 44:00women in Israel, which I found very interesting, because it's a new initiative that is coming from a place that you wouldn't expect. Like, from one hand, you could imagine that it will come sooner or later. From the other hand, Haredi women are perceived as the most unconscious politically and ignorant group in the Israeli society, so it was surprising to discover that they are actually deciding not only to create a political voice, but also to run for the election, with a program. And yeah, I'm considering voting for them (laughs) -- even though it's far from my background. But who knows? It's interesting that -- 45:00they're not coming from a feminist standpoint. Their program is social and it's mostly about economic disadvantages of the Haredi population in Israel.

AIS:Kasia, I would like to ask you about Poland a little bit. I know that you are still in touch with Poland --

KC:Sure.

AIS:-- although you live in Israel. Why did you decide to organize a seminar, "Yidishe froy, dervek [Jewish women, wake up]," in Kraków?

KC:(laughs) So the seminar, "Yidishe froy, dervek" -- "Jewish Women, Wake Up" -- was an initiative aiming at bringing together Polish female scholars who deal 46:00with Jewish women's studies -- actually, not only female -- I don't think I wanted only women. But it was a project of Edyta Gawron and mine. Edyta Gawron, she's a lecturer at the Jagiellonian University. And we came up with this idea after a panel that was organized two years ago in Kraków during the Jewish Culture Festival. It was a panel entitled, "New Studies on Jewish Women," I think. And it had on the panel Shana Penn from the Taube Foundation, who was -- you know, she's one of the mentors that I haven't mentioned until now, but Shana Penn is an executive director of the Taube Foundation for Poland. She very generously supported my projects about Jewish women in Poland. And she always 47:00encouraged these kind of initiatives. She herself wrote a book about the Solidarity movement in Poland, with a particular focus on women active in this movement. And I think she was a very important person in the process of my enforcement, because I was not coming from a place where you had a strong belief in -- that doing gender research and dealing with Jewish women is something important. And I needed this kind of encouragement that Shana Penn gave me. So Shana Penn organized this panel, and she invited a few women -- Bożena Umińska came from Warsaw, Edyta Gawron, and me, and we were talking about our research. 48:00And then after the panel, we were -- like, we saw that there's a huge interest in this in Poland. And we thought, Let's organize a seminar. Let's see what's going on. Let's see what there is about Jewish women in Poland. Because many people who, like me, do this kind of research, they have a feeling of being like a lonely island. Like, they've heard, maybe, that someone in the far city makes similar research, but there are not so many spaces where you meet. Because research on Jewish women takes place in very different fields. So you're a historian, you're a sociologist, sometimes you're coming from the literature studies. So it was difficult to come together. And there was one initiative of Joanna Lisek in Wroclaw a few years ago to bring together scholars who were dealing with Jewish women. But that was a big conference, and I thought more of 49:00organizing a workshop -- a place -- like, a friendly space of exchanging ideas and of presenting projects about Jewish women. And that's what happened. Last year, in June 2014, we organized a seminar in Kraków. And we were about fifteen, I think -- twelve, maybe fifteen women who are doing research about women -- women in Hasidism, as you, and about Jewish press, about women in the Holocaust -- all kinds of topics. We discussed for the whole day our perspectives. And I thought it was a starting point to develop a network of 50:00cooperation and of support that we miss many times.

AIS:And do you think that we are closer after this seminar?

KC:Yes. I mean, it's a small step. It doesn't come like this. It will take years. For me, it was important to see the faces and to see that there is a group of women who do this, and to see how many challenges there are and to discuss. And an important part of it was that actually, many women share these stories of being deprived of financial support, of being troubled by ideological prejudices in their departments, which were often male-dominated. So it was, I think, psychologically important, also, to meet in such a place and to, I don't 51:00know, support each other. To say, Yeah, what you're doing is fine, what you're doing is good.

AIS:In your opinion, in Poland, Jewish women's studies and gender studies in general -- Polish, let's say -- Polish gender studies -- are coming together or are, rather, separated?

KC:Polish -- say again -- gender studies and Jewish women's studies?

AIS:Yeah.

KC:No. I think there's a big gap between these two fields. And there are people who have background in both -- in doing this research. But I wouldn't say that there is a lot of support from the feminist academia to the Jewish women's 52:00studies. Jewish women's studies are being done, as I said, usually in the departments that are focused on something different, like history. And then you have departments of gender studies, which not very often deal with Jewish women, I have to say. And it's changing, and I know I haven't been for a year in Poland -- like, so intensively academically -- so there might be -- that the situation is different. But from what I know, gender departments in Poland are focusing more and more on queer studies, and there is not so much space for Jewish or Gypsy women. There's not so much space for minority women, I would say. Gender studies in Poland, I think, aim at a transnational perspective. But they ignore 53:00the fact that before the transnational perspective, you also have to recognize the particular experience of non-Polish women in Poland, and this is something that is lacking. And it's a pity, because this cooperation could be methodologically fruitful, actually.

AIS:You say that Yiddish is the culture that you feel related to. And what do you exactly mean by that?

KC:No, I said that when I became interested in my Jewish project, I thought that Yiddishkayt is my point of reference. But that's more like my (laughs) --

AIS:Life before.

KC:My life before. Because I'm living an Israeli life now.AIS:Kasia, tell me, please, about your work for Yad Vashem. We are doing this interview in your workplace, which is Yad Vashem, the leading institution for the Holocaust 54:00studies. What is your role here?

KC:I'm working in Yad Vashem in the Righteous Among the Nations department. And I'm dealing here -- I'm taking care of the cases of the Polish gentiles who rescued Jews during the Second World War. So I'm reading testimonies, I'm watching videos, and I'm doing research about the cases of the rescue. And then I'm sending these cases to the consideration of the special committee which decides on the designation of the title of "the Righteous Among the Nations." That's my job here.

AIS:Do you use Yiddish here?

KC:Yes. And that's a challenging part of my work. I like very much to discover that I have a testimony in Yiddish to hear to. Some time ago, I had this 55:00videotape of a woman who was born in Poland in the '20s, and she grew up in a very liberal family -- a Jewish family with Yiddish as her mother tongue, but then without strong religious background or something like that. And then after the Holocaust, she came to Israel. And here, she got married, and so on and so on. And at some point, she decided to become ultra-Orthodox. And the interview was being done in Bnei Brak. And she is an ultra-Orthodox woman speaking Yiddish, her mother tongue, with her family now. And it was fascinating, because she was talking about her liberal childhood and teenage -- you know, how 56:00liberated she was. And then, at some point, she decided to have such a lifestyle. And without any -- and you see that this was completely her choice. Often, you think -- or there is this idea in the secular society -- that Haredi women are unhappy and they are forced to such a lifestyle and they are unconscious, it's not their conscious choice. And you could see that with this woman, she was so happy with this lifestyle -- and then coming from such a secular, liberal background, this is where she found herself. So it was nice to hear this interview in Yiddish that comes from Yiddishland -- from prewar Poland. Very nice to hear. Many times, I have testimonies written in Yiddish diaries, and often, they are written -- it's handwritten, which is, I have to 57:00say, such a challenge. With Karolina Szymaniak and Agata Kondrat in Warsaw, I once -- done this workshop about reading handwriting in Yiddish. And, of course, now when I know more Hebrew, that helps also. But that's challenging, to read diaries from the time of the war. Often, they're also written with a pencil on very small sheets of paper. Yeah. And we try to do that here, because these testimonies are very valuable. Often, it's in these testimonies where you can find proofs of help that the Jews received from Poles. So we're very, very careful with this, and we pay a lot of attention to not miss something. And then you have official papers from the Jewish community also, from the time of the -- 58:00after the liberation from the So-- sorry (laughs) -- after the liberation from the Nazi occupation. For example, there was this organization called Koordynacja, which was looking for Jewish children hidden during the war and rescued by Polish families. And they would go to small villages, look for Polish children. And I work a lot with such cases, because usually, the families who kept these Jewish children, they are Righteous Among the Nations, because they did it without any payment. And sometimes, the protocols of this organization are written in Yiddish also, so I read that. So yeah, I would say that there is a part of my work that relates to Yiddish here, also.

AIS:Is there anything else -- what you would like to say about the place of Yiddish in Yad Vashem?

KC:In Yad Vashem? I don't work here long enough to know. I mean, I know there are other people who speak Yiddish, and I sometimes -- like, I don't know this person -- in person, but sometimes, when I don't succeed in reading this handwriting, there is this boy from a Haredi family who works in the archives, and that's his mother tongue, so we can ask him for help. I don't know whether Yiddish plays a big role in Yad Vashem. I mean, this is opening, actually, a big debate about the role of Yiddish in the Zionist project and in Israel. And this is a fascinating story of political struggle. I mean, one of the main characters 60:00of my research is Pu'ah Rakovska, who was one of the leading Polish Zionists. And she -- her mother tongue was Yiddish, but she was a devoted Hebrew teacher. She was speaking, writing, and teaching in Hebrew. And she established one of the first female -- girls schools in Hebrew in Warsaw. And for her, there was nothing more natural than the fact that being Jewish is being at least bilingual, and that both Yiddish and Hebrew are essential parts of the Jewish identity. And in 1920, she came to Palestine under British mandate as the representative of the Women's International Zionist Organization, and she was 61:00shocked by the way that Yiddish culture is treated here by the Zionist establishment. You know, she couldn't believe that they're actually persecuting people who speak Yiddish and who are trying to organize cultural events in Yiddish. And she couldn't accept that. She couldn't accept this ideological persecution of Yiddish as the language of the diaspora. And she strongly believed that -- building Jewish state is impossible without recognizing the heritage of Yiddish, and without recognizing the fact that there is a huge population of Jews that speak Yiddish and that don't intend to give it up for Hebrew, even if they speak Hebrew fluently like her. And she came back to Poland after a year here, partly because of the way that Yiddish was treated here. She also didn't like the tensions between Arabs and Jews, and the tough conditions 62:00in general. But she speaks about it in her memoirs -- how shocking that was for her, to experience that. And she was writing in Yiddish in Poland and she was part of the Yiddish culture in Poland, and at the same time, being part of the Hebrew culture, and she didn't see any contradiction in that. And here, when we come -- like, we would have to analyze how -- how does Yad Vashem refer to Yiddish, to this Yiddish heritage? What kind of attention does it give to Yiddish? And for me, being in Israel was, like, the first time when I realized that Yiddish is actually an alive language. I remember that when I first heard Yiddish here -- I was sitting on the street in a coffee shop, and suddenly, I heard someone speaking Yiddish. And I saw, it's a man who was talking on his 63:00mobile phone in Yiddish and talking about what will he eat for dinner or, I don't know, something -- you know, where will he go in the evening? And that was, for me -- I don't know, something -- it resonates in me very much. Because until then, Yiddish, for me, was this language of Yiddishkayt, which means, of the world that doesn't exist anymore, which means, the world of these yellow papers that I'm reading in the library, but not a language that you can -- I don't know, talk about your breakfast in, or you can -- you know, this mobile phone in Yiddish. (laughs) And then more and more in Israel, I was hearing Yiddish -- and in particular, in Jerusalem, at the bus stop in the Haredi neighborhood. Like, people passing me, students gossiping in Yiddish about their teacher. And that was an amazing experience. That was a very different 64:00experience of Yiddish than what I had before. And there is also in Israel this culture of the secular people who rediscover Yiddish as part of Yiddishkayt as you have it in Europe, and projects of gathering these people together. And there's even a Yiddishkayt -- or a Yiddish festival, I think, in April in Tel Aviv. But that's different than realizing that Yiddish is a language of part of the population in Israel. And people speak Yiddish and write in Yiddish and love in Yiddish and get angry in Yiddish -- still here. And paradoxically, it's in Israel where I found my Yiddishkayt, even though I thought, Only by staying in 65:00the Diaspora I can keep this Yiddishkayt. And this is where my Yiddish-speaking relatives live, also. I mean, in Poland, there is no one left from my father's family -- from the Jewish side. Everybody came here. So by coming here, I also could see people who were speaking Yiddish with my grandfather. And you know, the first time in my life when I saw Yiddish was when my sister found some papers in my father's desk. And I didn't even know that this is Yiddish then. But these letters were the letters that my grandfather's brother wrote him from 66:00Israel in the '50s -- and, you know, talking about, How are you feeling? How are we feeling? We are sick. How are your children? And Yiddish then became part of my identity, let's say this way -- even though it wasn't my mother tongue, even though I didn't learn it at home, the fact that my grandfather spoke Yiddish and that he corresponded with his family in Yiddish -- you know, it makes something. It makes a difference. It's not only the tool of my work, but it's part of my identity, also. Um-hm.

AIS:Kasia, we are nearing to the end. Is there anything else -- what you would like to add? Maybe some stories, some important things which we didn't cover up, but something what you think is important to say now?

KC:Yeah. I think there should be more focus on the research -- on Jewish sources in Poland, because there's a lot of sources there still. And it would be good to realize that. And it would be good to encourage this kind of research in Poland -- which deals with this. And in particular, I would have in mind, for example, research about the memory books of -- [BREAK IN RECORDING] sifrei zikaron [Hebrew: memorial books], what you call it in Hebrew. These books are a great source of information, and they're very often in Yiddish. And that would be my 68:00dream, to make such a research. With a focus on women -- what kind of image of women, what roles of women appear in these books? And I think this is one of the main sources. And it's not my idea -- someone writes about it also, that there is a big need for that. And I think it would be great if people could read these books and do more research about that. And I wish for an extension of Jewish women's studies in Poland. That's that.

AIS:The last -- almost last question which I would like to ask is, do you have any favorite Yiddish word, song, phrase maybe?

KC:I actually brought you something to [mimics pinning shirts together] -- this is something I use -- like, sometimes I have -- I need to do something like this 69:00with my clothes, and I have this thing that I use. And usually, you don't see it, but today, I was putting it on my skirt and I realized, Wow, that's actually fits my interview today. And it's a -- how do you call it in English? I don't know. Badge? [holds pin up to camera]

AIS:Badgke [sic].

KC:Yeah. And it's a badge that was issued by the Jewish youth organization in Poland, by Żydowska Ogólnopolska Organizacja Młodzieżowa. So, they had a series of these kind of gadgets that would refer to words which are common for Polish and Yiddish. So they would say, like, "balagan [Yiddish: chaos]," for example. And this is "ślamazara [Polish: slowpoke]" -- or "shlimazl [Yiddish: unlucky person]" -- which I got, at some point. (laughs) So I like it. Yeah, "ślamazara" is a nice word. And it's many times with me. That's a nice word. I 70:00don't know. It's difficult for me to come up with one word now, but it's -- I like very much to play with words at home. My husband has a background in linguistics, and he's -- iesh lo srita [Hebrew: he has a quirk] (laughs) -- as you say in Hebrew. Like, he's a little freak about language. So we like to discover the origin of Yiddish words. And so we also speak German -- like, he speaks and I speak a little. And to trace the origin of a word -- like, what is the source of this word? Where does it come from? From Polish to Yiddish, or from German to Polish and then to Yiddish? Or to Hebrew from there? It's a fascinating family (laughs) game. And I recall, there's also this book recently published, "Jews and Words." Who wrote it? This famous Israeli writer that I 71:00don't remember his name now. Yeah. So, "Jews and Words." I think it's something nice.

AIS:Thank you very much for this interview, Kasia.

KC:Thank you.

AIS:Dziękuję bardzo [Polish: Thank you very much].

KC:Dziękuję bardzo.

[END OF INTERVIEW]