ARLEENE KANE ORAL HISTORY

ISAAC MOORE: This is Isaac Moore, and today is March 26th, 2015. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Arleene Kane, and we are going to record an oral history interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Arleene, do I have your permission to record?

ARLEENE KANE: Yes.

IM:Thank you. So, why don't we jump right in. So, the first part of the interview is going to be focused on your father and his acting in the Yiddish theater. So, to begin with, can you tell me his name and where he was born?

AK:Yes. His name is Sol Migdal, M-i-g-d-a-l, which is a Hebrew name. And he was born in Kosów Lacki, Poland, which is between Warsaw and Białystok. Also 1:00important to know about my father is the fact that he came from a family of eleven children. His father had been married before, and he had two children with his first wife. And unfortunately, the wife and the two children died of cholera. So, my grandfather, being an Orthodox Jew, did what Jews did and married the sister of his wife, who was sixteen years old -- and then proceeded to have eleven children with her. My father was sort of in the middle. They lived in a very, very rural town, which I actually visited.

IM:Oh, wow.

AK:And I found, when I was there, to my great horror, that if you follow signs to Treblinka, you get to my father's town. And when I got back from my trip to Poland and questioned my father about this, he said, "Oh, yes." He said, "On Sundays, we used to go to Treblinka and play soccer." So, that's part of his life. And fortunately, he left Poland when he was fifteen -- fourteen, I think -- fourteen. And -- let's see -- he was born in 1915, so, '29 -- he came to the States in '29. Just in time for the Depression. (laughs) And his father had managed to, little by little, get his children out. Unfortunately, the older children were not able to get out, because they were married and they were no 3:00longer his responsibility. And so, they remained. And unfortunately, many were killed in the Holocaust at Treblinka.

IM:Can you tell me a little bit more about your grandparents -- like, stories you might have heard about them in Poland?

AK:You know, my grandparents -- my father's parents -- really didn't speak English. And so, whenever we went to visit them in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, there was a house full of people -- my cousins, my aunts, my uncles. And everybody really did speak mostly in Yiddish, so whatever they were talking about, I didn't absorb. And if they spoke about their lost sisters and nieces and nephews -- 'cause they were babies that were killed -- we never heard it. It was probably in Yiddish and we didn't hear it. My grandparents were really Orthodox. 4:00My grandfather had a long beard and peyes [sidelocks] and my grandmother wore a sheitel [traditional women's head covering]. And that was their home -- a very, very religious home, with lots and lots of grandchildren. We would visit them very often. But you know, there's not too much to say. They were very sweet. They were very warm. But they didn't speak English, so it was tough. With my mother's parents, it was different. But -- so that was the kind of atmosphere that I experienced with my father's family. Lots and lots of cousins.

IM:Can you tell me about your father's early life in Poland before moving to the United States?

AK:Well, from what he told me, his father raised horses. When I was there, it 5:00was a very depressing rural town -- small and countrified and farms. And apparently, his father raised horses and sold horses. I know. It's -- I know. But this is what I was told. He had a really tough -- very tough, poor life. Lots of brothers and sisters. And it wasn't a very good life. And I remember him telling me that when they got to leave Poland, they were riding on a train and they were surrounded by some Polish people with some young Polish kids who made fun of them because they were Jewish. And one of them had a Polish sausage -- a kielbasa, right? And he said, "Oh, let's stuff it in their mouth. Let's stuff 6:00the kielbasa in the Jew's mouth." So, this is -- yeah. Yeah. They had a tough life. (laughs)

IM:Do you have a sense of what his impression of America was when he arrived?

AK:He never really talked about that. No. I'm afraid he didn't really talk about that. Although he went to school -- I mean, you know what, he didn't talk about it, but he went to school. And when he went -- I don't know if it was public school, junior high -- no, he was fourteen, it was high school. So evidently, he had to -- they probably put him back. 'Cause that's what they did with foreign kids -- they would put them back and then they would learn English and then they would go high-- you know, to their own level. And he was a very good soccer player. So, I know that he played soccer. I don't know if it was in school, but 7:00I know when he got older, he played soccer with Hakoah -- it was a team called Hakoah. And in school, I know, he made a friend who was an Italian kid who was terribly interested in opera and music, which my father had nothing of in his background, and introduced my father to this. And that's how my father came to love music. He became crazily in love with music, thanks to his Italian schoolmate. I don't know if he ever finished high school. I think he may not have.

IM:Where did the family move to when they arrived to the United States?

AK:Williamsburg.

IM:So, your father attended school in Williamsburg?

AK:Well, he didn't go to a yeshiva. He went to a public school. I don't think they had -- I don't know why. You know, now that you mention that, I'm sort of wondering how come he didn't go to yeshiva. You know, you're right. I never wondered that before. But he didn't.

IM:Do you have a sense of what immigrant life was like for him?

AK:In Brooklyn? (laughs)

IM:At the age of fourteen.

AK:I don't know.

IM:Did he ever tell any stories about that time?

AK:Not really. No. I'm sure it was a lot nicer than in Poland. It was a totally Jewish neighborhood -- Williamsburg. So, he was amongst his own.

IM:So,` your father worked as a butcher, right?

AK:He did.

IM:Can you describe the shop where he worked?

AK:Okay. He didn't work in a shop. It was a slaughterhouse. The reason he got a job as a butcher was because one of his sisters married the owner -- I believe he might have owned the slaughterhouse. I can't swear to it, but she married a fairly well-to-do man -- my aunt -- who was from Hungary. And he did well in the States. And I don't know if he owned the slaughterhouse, but he got my father in, and my father learned the trade. And that's where he worked.

IM:Where was the slaughterhouse?

AK:Oh, he worked in many different ones. I only know of one that I actually -- he used to take me as a kid once in a while, and it was pretty horrific. (laughs) It was very cold. And you would see the carcasses hanging. Yeah, it was 10:00quite a sight.

IM:Can you tell me a little --

AK:But that's about it. I was very young. But I remember the last one he worked in, interesting enough, was in New York, on Gansevoort Street. Do you know where Gansevoort Street is? Okay. It's right near Fourteenth Street, way on the West Side, right by the West Side Highway. And he would go to work about 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. This is what butchers did. And that neighborhood was full of hookers. It was very famous for hookers. (laughs) Now that area is very expensive. There are no more hookers. There are fancy restaurants. It's right -- you see it if you walk on the High Line. Have you ever walked on the High Line? Oh, okay. The High Line passes that area, which was all slaughterhouses and butcher places. And now it's, you know, another world.

IM:What was his attitude toward becoming an American, if he ever shared any insights on that?

AK:(sighs) I don't really know how to answer that, but I can just tell you that my father was a very unusual guy. He came from eleven brothers and sisters, from a really Orthodox family, and he was an atheist -- the only one of all his brothers and sisters. He was really an atheist. Teenage years. He was left-wing. None of this did he get from his family or his background. His father was a -- he was in the -- he sewed. He was in the garment -- you know, he used a sewing machine. (laughs) That's what he did to make money. My grandmother raised the 12:00kids; she didn't work. And his brothers and sisters weren't really very religious, any of them. But they weren't like him. He was really, really different. So, what did he -- well, I think he loved being in America. He was a strong union man. He used to go on strikes. He used to demonstrate. Union Square. I used to go with him.

IM:Wow.

AK:So, he was an unusual character, my father. He was really different.

IM:Do you have any sense of what that was like for him, in terms of his family and relationship with his parents or siblings -- sort of being different?

AK:I don't. But you know what? My father was really an incredibly outward guy, and he got along with his siblings and he got along -- he was very respectful 13:00towards his parents. And they probably didn't even know. (laughs) I'm sure his siblings did, but I don't think his parents even knew. I don't think that was talked about that much. But no, he had a very loving relationship with his family, and I don't think it was really a problem.

IM:Great. What contacts, if any, did his family and he maintain with the Old Country?

AK:They wanted nothing to do with it. Nothing. And I mean, of course they wouldn't. My father lost, in his immediate family, two older sisters. His eldest sister had three-year-old twin boys, and they were killed. His younger sister was killed, and she had a couple of kids who were killed. I just -- you know, the thing is that I cannot imagine what my grandparents went through. But as a 14:00child, I was not aware of it. They wouldn't talk about it in front of me, you know? And I wish that I would have been older and had been able to talk to them about it. But it wasn't spoken about. So, no, they wanted nothing to do -- no. They never wanted to go back. No. No.

IM:Can you describe your father for me? What did he look like? What would he wear?

AK:(laughs) Okay. He was about five foot nine, maybe? He had dark, curly hair 15:00when he was young. He had a very good build, 'cause he was an athlete. He was really a great athlete. He had blue eyes. He had rosy cheeks. He had big ears -- (laughs) -- and a big Jewish nose. (laughs) That's just about what he looked like.

IM:How would you characterize his personality or character?

AK:He was incredibly outward. He was very friendly. He would talk to everybody. He was everybody's friend. He was noisy. He talked loud. What else? He was a whistler. He was a fabulous whistler. And every day when he came home from work 16:00-- and we were living, at that time -- I was born in Brooklyn, but eventually moved to Queens, and we lived in a fifth-floor apartment. And every day when he came home from work, we would hear him downstairs whistling a tune from a Wagner opera, and we knew he was home. So, he was a gr-- I'm telling you, it was like, he could have been -- if there was such a thing -- a professional whistler. (laughs) He also -- oh my God, he was also a joke teller. He could sit there for hours telling jokes, in Yiddish and in English. And he loved to sing. He was a pretty good singer. And he would sing arias from opera. And I think he might have loved Verdi the best. And he would sing what he thought sounded like Italian, but it wasn't -- it was made-up words -- some of them were the right words, but others he made up. And he would sing a lot of Yiddish -- a lot of 17:00Yiddish songs. Yeah.

IM:Do you remember any songs --

AK:Oh, sure.

IM:-- or any jokes?

AK:Oh, well --

IM:Can you maybe share some?

AK:The jokes I wouldn't remember, but the songs, you look in any Yiddish book, I mean -- I don't know, I can mention a lot of them. You know, he just knew all of them.

IM:A lot of, like, popular songs?

AK:No, a lot of old songs that he learned in Europe. You know, (sings) "Oyfn pripetshik, brent a fayerl [In the stove, a fire burns]." You know, that type of stuff. "Tumbalalaika [The sound of the balalaika]." Not the junky "Bay mir bistu sheyn [You are beautiful to me]" -- he couldn't stand that. Do you know what that is? Okay. (laughs) You know, that's kind of the American Yiddish theater, which they had gone to but did not like. Because they felt that wasn't the true Yiddish theater -- with what's her name, Molly Picon? No, they didn't like that 18:00type of stuff. They liked Sholem Aleichem Yiddish theater -- Yud Lam-- well, I don't know if Yud Lamed Peretz wrote for it, but that type of thing. Serious -- which -- yeah.

IM:Do you know if your father attended the theater while he was growing up in New York -- the Yiddish theater?

AK:The Yiddish theater? Well, I don't remember them doing that. 'Cause they used to go to the opera all the time. So, I don't think he liked the Jewish theater that much in New York, until they started the Folksbiene. Now, are you familiar with the Folksbiene?

IM:I am. Yeah.

AK:Have you ever gone?

IM:Yes.

AK:Okay. So, that's the kind of theater that they liked -- he liked.

IM:Your father was interested in the opera --

AK:Um-hm.

IM:-- handball, and Yiddish music. How did he balance these interests with his 19:00occupation as a butcher?

AK:Very good question. You would think, How is he gonna do all this? Absolutely right. You know, it's funny, when I was thinking about this and I was writing things down about my father, I said to myself, You know what? He was really something. I didn't appreciate him. (laughs) Okay. So, I described about him going to work at two, three in the morning. He had a tough job. He would get home around four. Yeah. A little earlier than most, 'cause he started so early in the morning. There were nights that he would go with my mother -- they would get a babysitter and they would go to the Metropolitan Opera. And they would stand. They couldn't afford a seat. And so, my father made a friend -- 'cause he 20:00made friends with everybody -- of an usher. I'm trying to remember his name -- I used to know his name. And the usher would let them in for a dollar each. And then, the usher would look -- Eddie. Eddie the usher. And Eddie the usher would look around to see if there were empty seats. And if he would find an empty -- he would find the seats after the first act, make sure nobody sat there, he would call my parents. There were a lot of people who used to stand at the Metropolitan Opera. (whispers) "Come, come with me." Find them a seat, and they would see the opera. And then, they would come home late on the train, right, to Brooklyn. And then, he'd wake up at 2:00 in the morning, whatever it was, and go to work. So, that's how he managed the opera. On the weekends, he played handball. We lived near a schoolyard with a handball court. And he was 21:00fantastic. Have you ever seen the old-fashioned handball?

IM:Uh-unh.

AK:You wear a glove. And it's a small, hard black ball. It hurts, so you have to wear a glove. And it's a tough game. You can play either with two people or with doubles -- four people. And he taught me how to play handball. And he would do that on the weekends. And then occasionally, they would go -- no, I think the Philharmonic was later, when they had more money. They didn't have an Eddie the doorman at the Philharmonic, so -- (laughs) -- that came later. But they did go to Carnegie Hall, so I guess -- I don't know if -- I don't remember if they stood in Carnegie Hall. That, I don't remember. That's how he did it.

IM:(laughs) Great. Thanks for sharing that. So, your father performed with the National Yiddish Theatre or the Folksbiene --

AK:The Folksbiene, yeah.

IM:-- during the 1980s. For someone who --

AK:I think it was late '70s, early '80s. Yeah.

IM:Right. So, for someone who doesn't know what that is, can you just briefly describe the Folksbiene?

AK:Well, as I said, I think I only got to see one production, unfortunately. I think it was called "The Rise of David Levinsky" -- does that ring a bell? Is that the right title?

IM:I believe so. Yes.

AK:Right. And it's old plays performed in Yiddish. That's what it is. He always got minor roles, I have to say. (laughs)

IM:Can you tell me more about when he started performing?

AK:You see, the problem is, I wasn't here. I was living abroad. So, I can't tell you too much about it.

IM:Do you know how he became involved in Yiddish theater?

AK:Yeah. I think -- I think -- it's because my grandfather -- my mother's father 23:00-- was in a nursing home. And I think it was a Jewish nursing home in Queens. He was very sick; he had had a stroke. And one of the people in charge of the entertainment at the nursing home was called Zypora Vaysman [sic] -- I think. I know her first name is definitely Zypora. Does it ring a bell? No. And she was a big actress in the Folksbiene. And so, when my grandfather was in the nursing home, my parents would come to visit him, and my father would entertain. He would sing in Yiddish to the residents. And she saw -- she discovered him. And I think that's -- we will never know, because they're both dead, but -- (laughs) -- I think that she offered him a job. I don't think it was a paid job -- with the Folksbiene. I think they got paid for -- I don't know, fare or something, 24:00but I don't think it was a paid job, at least not for him. But I think that's how he -- yeah.

IM:Wow.

AK:I think that's how it happened.

IM:How long did he act in the theater?

AK:You know, it was a few years, but I only got to see that one play. Yeah, he did a few shows there.

IM:Can you tell me about your experience of seeing your father act in the play?

AK:Well, my father was always acting, so my whole life was seeing my father acting. It was fun. And we took our kids. And of course, they didn't really speak Yiddish -- just a few words -- and of course they were terribly bored, 'cause they didn't know what was going on. And for me, it was okay. I could understand, I would say, sixty percent of it, seventy percent of it. I think my husband slept a little bit. But that was the experience. It was really good. It 25:00was very, very nice. Very well done.

IM:What role did he play?

AK:He was a rabbi. (laughs) He was usually a rabbi. (laughs) And as a matter of fact, my parents ended up living in a retirement community in Long Island, and they would put on shows once or twice a year, and he was always the big star in their shows. He was an actor. He did a lot of "Fiddler on the Roof" -- that was his big thing.

IM:In the retirement community?

AK:Yeah.

IM:Great. Do you know about any relationships your father had with other Yiddish actors or Yiddish theater enthusiasts?

AK:Yes, yes, yes. There's this -- you know Isaiah Sheffer?

IM:Uh-unh.

AK:You don't? Okay. You ever hear the program "Selected Shorts" on WNYC Radio in New York?

IM:I have heard of that, yes.

AK:Okay. He was the director of that show -- "Selected Shorts." And he was in the Yiddish theater. And he was big in the Yiddish theater. If you look him up -- Isaiah Sheffer, S-h-e-f-f-e-r. And yeah, my father knew him. He was a big deal. And then, he knew Zypora -- Spaisman -- I just got her name. You can look her up. Zypora Spaisman. And she did big roles, too, in those plays. And then, there was another one -- which, actually, I saw here -- oh, I can't remember her name. But he did. He did speak about the ones who had the big roles, and he was friendly with them, but just in the theater. Not socially.

IM:Did he belong to any organizations?

AK:He belonged to a -- they called it a benevolent society. It was a left-wing organization. And he was a big union man, if that counts. He was shop steward of his union for a while. Let me think what other organizations -- no.

IM:So, we've been talking about your father as an actor. I'm wondering what he was like as a father.

AK:Um-hm.

IM:So, your father began acting during the latter part of his life --

AK:Yes.

IM:-- when he was well into his late sixties?

AK:He was born in 1915 and he was in the -- so, '87 -- yeah. Middle sixti-- yeah.

IM:Early seventies.

AK:Yeah.

IM:Right. And when you were in your forties, roughly?

AK:Yeah.

IM:Right. So, what was it like for you to experience that -- just having your father perform in productions -- (laughs) -- at such a later age of his life?

AK:Oh, no, it was really sweet. It was really nice.

IM:What did you think about that?

AK:It was lovely. It was lovely. Yeah. It was lovely. And the funny thing is that my mother used to come along with him every time. They'd take the train. And she would usher. (laughs) So, she had to sit through every performance. (laughs) He loved it. I mean, it was really a kick for him. He was in heaven. He loved it.

IM:Now, before we move in, I'd also like to ask you about your mother.

AK:Um-hm.

IM:Can you tell me about your mother's family background?

AK:Yeah. I can. My mother was also born in 1915. And she was born in Ostrów 29:00Mazowiecka, which is -- I guess you could call it a big town or a small little city. And it was in sort of the same vicinity as my father's town; it was between Warsaw and Białystok. And the reason I was in Poland is, my husband went to Poland in the '80s trying to do business. And I was with him and I said, "I gotta go see my parents' towns. They never wanted to go back, but I really have to go." And so, I got a taxi -- he was busy, and I got a taxi. And I got a taxi driver who could not speak, really, English. And he spoke a little German. I studied German for one year in school, so I managed with my little German and 30:00my Yiddish to tell him where I wanted to go. And I had it in my -- my mother and father had written down the names of their towns for me in Polish, so I showed him. And he -- "Yes, I know where. I know." And he took me. So, first we went to my mother's town. And it's funny, 'cause my mother had a postcard from her town hall. And she gave me the postcard and said, "See if the town hall is still there." And as we entered the town, I went, "Oh my God! There it is! There's the town hall!" And I showed it to the taxi dr-- "Oh, yeah! That -- that." And we found where she lived -- the address. But there was no house there anymore. There were little garages on her property. And next to her property was a more 31:00-- a modern, small apartment building. Across the street from her -- now this was a country road -- across the street from her were still two-hundred-year-old houses from two hundred years ago. And when I told her, she said, "Well, yes, because in those houses, there were no Jews living -- there were Poles living." And we lived in a very mixed neighborhood. So, wherever you see the new buildings, that's where the Jews lived, 'cause there were no more Jews' houses. And there were a whole bunch of Polish men walking this rural street, staring at me. When we were taking the taxi ride, I noticed, it was really like two hundred years ago. There were still horses and farmers riding horses and the fat Polish 32:00ladies wearing the babushkas, and it was like a scene from "Fiddler on the Roof." And this was in 1980s.

IM:Wow.

AK:I think it's probably changed by now. And these men are all looking at me. And they went over to the taxi driver and they said, Who is that? And he told them, obviously, "This is an American woman whose mother lived right here." And then I said to them -- and to him -- "Where's the Jewish cemetery?" 'Cause my mother told me, my relatives are buried in a Jewish cemetery -- the ones who died before the war. There's no Jew-- and they looked at me. It was -- I have to tell you, and it was not my imagination -- they did not like me there. There is no żyd [Polish: Jewish] cemetery. No. There's no -- no. So, that's where my 33:00mother came from. And as we were driving -- and he was gonna take me to my father's town -- I see a sign saying, "Treblinka." Not to see a concentration camp, but that was the town of Treblinka, right near where my father lived. Anyway, so that's where my mother was from. My mother's father -- my grandfather -- this was a saga. He and his father were builders. And they used to build little bridges that went over rivers. And that's what they did. But at the time that my mother was little -- seven -- and her brother was -- he's five years younger -- two -- my grandfather could not make a living anymore. He couldn't. 34:00And they knew that they had to leave. They couldn't come to America -- it was almost impossible. So, he had a sister in Uruguay and another relative in Argentina. And there, he could get a visa. So, he went. And I don't know how many years he lived in both places -- that, I don't know -- but he did go there and managed to earn a living -- and then managed to get a visa to the United States from there. And it took seven years. And my mother and her brother did not see their father for seven years. And he managed to bring them over. And he worked as a carpenter. He built -- actually, the story is that he built some of 35:00Donald Trump's father's buildings -- that he worked for them. He managed to make enough money to buy a four-family home in East New York, Brooklyn. Which today is the worst neighborhood -- (laughs) -- in New York. But he managed to do that, which was -- I mean, it's incredible, isn't it?

IM:So, your mother grew up in East New York?

AK:From age fourteen.

IM:From age fourteen.

AK:Right. And her brother.

IM:And can you tell me about how your parents met?

AK:Yes. My mother graduated from high school and went to college -- she went to Brooklyn College at night. And she worked in an umbrella factory. And working with her was one of my father's many sisters. (laughs) And my mother would talk 36:00about how she loved opera. And my father's sister said, "Oh, do I have a man for you." And that was her brother -- my father. And she fixed them up. And that's how they met.

IM:How would you describe the relationship between your parents?

AK:Ooh, now we're getting into serious business. (laughs) It was -- (laughs) -- loud and noisy. Do we have to get into it? (laughs)

IM:Not if you don't want to. (laughs)

AK:It was -- well, I have to say this: they were married for fifty years, when -- and then he died shortly after, so it lasted fifty years. My father was not an easy man. I think, from what I've told you, you can deduce that he was loud. 37:00And my mother was not. My mother was more quiet. And he was a little tough to live with. But they lasted fifty years. And what else can I say? So, do you want to know about what my mother did?

IM:I think that --

AK:Oh, that's it?

IM:I think that's great.

AK:Okay.

IM:I'm curious to know about her involvement, if at all, with your father's acting in the Yiddish theater.

AK:Oh, just the fact that she would go with him and she would be an usher. But that was it.

IM:Usher at the Folksbiene?

AK:Yes.

IM:So, I'd also like to start talking about you and your childhood.

AK:Um-hm.

IM:So, you grew up in New York City living in Brooklyn, in Jackson Heights.

AK:Right. And then Jackson Heights. Right.

IM:That was through the mid-1960s.

AK:Right.

IM:Can you tell me about the atmosphere of the home you grew up in?

AK:Yes. We lived in my grandparents' four-family home. We lived right next door to them. So, I was raised right next to my grandparents, which had a big influence on me, 'cause I was in and out of their apartment all the time and heard Yiddish all the time. And my uncle and -- oh, oh, my mother came here from Poland with a younger brother, and then my grandparents had their American baby. So, my mother was sixteen years old when her sister was born. And my uncle was, I think, eleven. Right. And so, when we moved in, my aunt was still living 39:00there, and my uncle was two. Because my uncle was going to City College, and then he was drafted into the army. And I remember -- yes -- my aunt and uncle were still living there. So, it was a very busy family situation with my grandparents, my uncle, and my aunt right next door. Right. After a while, of course, my aunt got married and my uncle got married and then they left, but at that time, it was a very -- yes. Friday night dinners together and -- yes, very happy. Except for one thing: except for the fact that my grandmother couldn't stand my father. So, that was a very tough situation. (laughs)

IM:Can you describe your grandparents for me?

AK:Yeah. Very European. Spoke Yiddish all the time. My grandfather was really quiet -- he was a very quiet man. My grandmother was very loving to me, but she was what you might call a farbisene [difficult person]. Do you know what a farbisene is? Do you speak Yiddish?

IM:Some. Yes.

AK:Okay. A farbisene is a person who gets upset with everybody. And we used to say, Oh, she's making farbisene lipelekh [angry lips], which is -- [purses lips and scowls] you get the picture? (laughs) And the funny thing is that I have seen pictures of her siblings, who live in South America -- well, they're all long dead -- and her mother, whom I never met -- my great-grandmother -- she had died -- and they all look like this. (laughs) And that's called farbisene 41:00lipelekh. (laughs) So, she was like that.

IM:Did you grandparents speak Yiddish to you?

AK:No. They really tried to speak English. They didn't speak Yiddish. And they didn't do very well with English. But they really didn't speak Yiddish. I'm sorry they didn't, to tell you the truth. Because a cousin of mine was raised with my father's parents, and he was totally bilingual. His Yiddish was as good as his English. And that I attribute to the fact that those grandparents spoke Yiddish to him all the time. And he went to yeshiva. But my grandparents didn't.

IM:Your grandparents spoke Yiddish in the home to each other?

AK:To each other and to -- I think -- you know, I'm not sure. They might have 42:00spoken a mixture to my aunt, who was born in America. They might have. It might have been a little of both. It might have been. But to each other, Yiddish.

IM:Did they listen to the radio --

AK:Um-hm, um-hm!

IM:-- or read any Yiddish language publications?

AK:WEVD. That was the Yiddish station. That was on all the time. Do you know about that station?

IM:Mm-hm.

AK:Yeah. And they read the "Forverts." My parents, on the other hand, would occasionally get -- I think they might -- yeah, the "Freiheit." Do you know about that newspaper?

IM:Yes. Um-hm.

AK:Right. So, there you had -- in one home, they were left -- very left-wing, and in the other home, I guess more socialist. (laughs) And my grandparents were religious, but they weren't like my father's parents. They weren't -- they did go to an Orthodox synagogue, which they -- they took me with them on Shabbos 43:00occasionally. Because my parents didn't go to synagogue. My mother was an atheist too. They -- yeah.

IM:Can you tell me more about the synagogue you went to?

AK:Yeah. It was in East New York, Brooklyn, and it was a house. It was a house that had been converted to a synagogue. A small house, yeah.

IM:What was it like there?

AK:I don't know. You know, it was nice. (laughs)

IM:Great.

AK:Yeah, they would take me. And my parents di-- you know, Sure, you know, Go. But my parents didn't go. And that was also -- I think my grandmother -- the farbisene -- would resent that a lot, because she probably felt my father influenced my mother, 'cause they were not religious -- and things like that. But -- but -- I went to Yiddish school. Didn't go to Hebrew school, I went to Yiddish school. And it was, I would say, the happiest memory of my childhood -- 44:00was that Yiddish school. It was Yud Lamed Peretz -- have you heard of those Yiddish schools?

IM:Um-hm.

AK:You have.

IM:Um-hm. There's the Sholem Aleichem schools --

AK:Sholem Aleichem --

IM:-- and the Peretz schools --

AK:It could be. You know, I'm not sure, because I went when I was very young. And had I remained, I could have then have gone to mitlshul [high school], which was in Manhattan. But we didn't -- we moved to Queens. And there were no Yiddish schools near where we lived. And my mother even tried to form a Yiddish school in Queens, but it didn't take. And so, that was the end of it. But I think it was called -- I don't know if -- it wasn't called Sholem Aleichem. I think it was Yud Lamed Peretz School. I think so. And it was wonderful. I would go for four afternoons a week -- Monday through Thursday. It was not religious. We 45:00would learn to read and write. We put on lots of wonderful musical plays. I had a wonderful teacher, Sidney -- we would call him Sidney der royter [the red one], because he had red hair. And he had a wonderful wife, who was the music teacher there. And we would put on Jewish shows. And I always had the main part. I guess I take after my father. And it was just such a happy memory. It was so enjoyable and the teachers were so wonderful and kids were all friends. And we were all, actually, from left-wing families. And my parents and their parents were -- we socialized. And it was a real life, you know? And then we moved. And the main reason we moved was because my grandmother wasn't talking to my mother for one reason or another and it was terrible and so we decided, that's it, and 46:00we moved to Queens. And goodbye Brooklyn and goodbye my happy childhood, basically.

IM:Can you describe a typical day at the school?

AK:At the Yiddish school?

IM:Yeah.

AK:Well, we would go after school. So, I would go to public school and then I'd -- you know, we walked. It wasn't like today. I was maybe seven when I started -- I'm thinking even maybe six -- maybe seven. And it may be three blocks away from where I lived. I would come home from school, have a snack, and then I would walk there. And we would sit at our desks and we would do the Yiddish writing and the Yiddish reading. We had lovely Yiddish books for kids. And then the wife would teach us Yiddish songs. And then we would put -- you know, it was just happy, happy. It was lovely. And I think it was such a difference from the way my husband describes Hebrew school, which he went to when he was a kid. I 47:00mean, another world.

IM:Yeah. What was your favorite part of Yiddish school? Any of the readings --

AK:I just loved all of it, really. I loved writing it. I loved reading it. I loved the music. I loved the teacher. I loved the music teacher. I loved my friends. It was wonderful.

IM:Growing up, you also attended Jewish summer camps.

AK:A few.

IM:Can you tell me more about them --

AK:Yeah.

IM:-- and which ones you attended?

AK:Yeah. The first one I attended was -- okay, it actually was not a Yiddish camp, but most of the people were Jewish. It was called Camp Wo-Chi-Ca. I don't even remember where it was. I was five years old. Why they sent me to a camp when I was five years old -- my brother was just born, and they thought they 48:00were doing me a favor, getting me out of the hot city into the country. They thought it was a great idea. As it turned out, I was the youngest kid in the camp, and all I did was cry. (laughs) So, I think I lasted -- I was supposed to be there, maybe, I don't know, a week, two weeks -- whatever it was, I didn't last. And they came and picked me up, and that was the end of that camp. I think it was a Jewish camp, but, you know, all I remember is crying, so that was that one. Then I went to Camp Kinderland. Did you ever hear of that one?

IM:Yes.

AK:Okay. That one, I must have been about eight. And that was great. That was really a left-wing camp. Pete Seeger used to come and sing. It was during -- no, I can tell you when it was -- it was -- let's see, the McCarthy era was in the '50s, so this must have been -- well, it was during the McCarthy era when I 49:00went. And I remember on visiting day, we used to have police cars outside that would write down the license plates of the parents who were coming to visit.

IM:Wow.

AK:That's how it was. Yeah. So, I went to that one for a year or -- yeah, I think a year. And that was fun. That was good. Full of spirit, full of left-wing zeal. It was great. Then, when I was fourteen, I went to a camp in Pennsylvania called Camp Hoffnung. Have you heard of that one?

IM:No. Can you tell me about that?

AK:Yeah. I was only fourteen. That was really a Yiddish camp. And the head of music was called -- his name is Mikhl Gelbart. He was a very old man. And why 50:00did I go to this camp? Because my mother had a friend who was friends with Mikhl Gelbart. And I was a pianist. I was only fourteen. And she had said to Mikhl Gelbart, "My friend Sarah Migdal has a daughter who's a wonderful pianist, and she knows a little Yiddish and she can play Yiddish music. Maybe you should interview her to play the piano at Camp Hoffnung. He was the music director. So, he did. And we went to my mother's friend's house, and she had a piano, and I sight-read the Yiddish music -- which, for me, was easy -- that's what I was good at. He says, "Will you come work for me in Camp Hoffnung? Summer free -- your parents don't have to pay for you, and I'll even give you twenty-five 51:00dollars for the summer." (laughs) And my parents said, Sure! (laughs) So, I did that. I did that for two summers.

IM:Wow.

AK:And basically, I was a camper -- I was a kid, you know, and I was in the bunk with the other kids. But I couldn't get to play all the sports, because I was busy in the room with the music. Putting on shows and this and that. And I did that for two years. And then the second year, unfortunately, we had two cases of polio, and the camp was quarantined. And one of the cases was a boy who lived in my building in Queens who was -- my parents recommended the camp to him. And he got polio. He made it -- he was okay. But they closed the camp down, and I think that was the end of Camp Hoffnung, which was terrible. Then, when I was, I 52:00think, sixteen, I got a job playing the piano at Camp Boiberik. That, I think, is Sholem Alei-- no, I'm not sure who ran that. I remember the director was -- I forgot. Leibush Lehrer? Seems to ring a bell. So, yeah. So, I played the piano there for a couple of years, too.

IM:What was your favorite activities, if at all, at Camp Boiberik?

AK:I was the volleyball captain. (laughs) I was good at sports, too. Sports. And, you know, playing the piano. I was -- you know, I guess I was considered a big deal. I was this young teenage girl, and here I was playing the piano and all that. It was great. I loved the sports, I loved the Yiddishkayt, I -- it was great.

IM:What activities did you do in Yiddish there?

AK:At the camps?

IM:Um-hm.

AK:Mostly singing. Yeah. And shows.

IM:So far, we've been talking about your father and the early part of your life. Let's fast-forward. Can you give me a snapshot of your life today -- like, where you live, what you've done?

AK:Yeah. Well, that would take a really long time, because --

IM:Just a quick little --

AK:(laughs) Okay. Well, I got married when I was twenty-one. Had three kids -- a girl and then a twin boy and girl. My husband worked for a chemical company, and we travelled all over the world. We lived in Southeast Asia. We lived in Mexico. We lived in London. And then, New York. And my kids are all grown now, and we 54:00have two grandchildren. And we live in an apartment in Fort Lee, New Jersey. And we have a house in Newfane, Vermont. And various times during my marriage, I got jobs -- playing the piano, I did a little piano teaching. And I guess that's about it.

IM:How, if at all, did your father's participation in the Yiddish theater affect your own sense of Jewishness and connection to Yiddishkayt?

AK:Well, as I said, I only saw one play, so that's difficult. But Yiddishkayt is in me -- has been since I'm a little girl. I was brought up with it. I lived next to Yiddish-speaking grandparents. My father's parents were Yiddish-speaking. I had a love for the Yiddish music, for the holidays. Even though we weren't religious, we always celebrated the holidays. My grandfather, 55:00being a builder, always had a sukkah. And we lived in a four-family house, and then there was sort of an alleyway and then there was the next house. In that alleyway, he would always build a sukkah, right? Sukkos. And we would always celebrate it. A huge part of my life.

IM:Do you recall any dishes around the holidays that you liked particularly?

AK:Well, unfortunately, I don't really like Jewish food that much. (laughs) Although my grandmother only cooked Jewish food. And my mother -- my mother was a fabulous cook. My mother made her own gefilte fish. And if you have time, I do have a very nice story about gefilte fish. Yes?

IM:Great.

AK:Okay. This comes together with the fact that we lived all over the world. And 56:00no matter where we lived, my parents would always come and see us for Passover. My mother -- which, we didn't get into her history at all, but my mother worked for American Airlines. And they had a lot of free airline trips with American Airlines. So, they were able to come visit us at a very small cost, wherever we lived. So, they came when we lived in Singapore. And they came to visit us in Singapore, and it was Passover. And my mother said, "Well, I don't know. Where am I gonna find the correct fish here?" And so, we told her that there was this enormous outdoor market in Singapore where they sold fabulous-looking fish. And we all went to the market. Here's my mother. We all sat on these low stools. Now, Singaporeans, they speak Chinese. (laughs) And people in markets don't 57:00really speak English. And so, my mother sat down and took a look at all the fish. Now, when you make gefilte fish, it's three different types. And she said, "Okay. This looks like the white fish. This looks like" -- I think it's cod -- I'm not -- I can't remember. "And this looks like the other one." So, she got it all, came to our house. We had to grind it -- ground it up. And I don't eat gefilte fish, but everybody else said it was the most delicious gefilte fish. (laughs) So, that's one of the stories. But my favorite Jewish dish -- if I had to mention one I liked, I would say kishke [tripe]. (laughs)

IM:Who made the dish?

AK:My mother would make it. Do you know what kishke is?

IM:No.

AK:No? Oh, I don't even know how to describe it. It's actually the diaphragm, and you would stuff it. I couldn't even go into it. But -- (laughs) -- oh, yes, 58:00she would make it all.

IM:Great. So, what do you think of Yiddish theater today?

AK:Well, from the one play I saw -- I think -- yeah, I think it was called "The Rise of David" -- or "The Something of David Levinsky." Well, it's not my thing. (laughs) I like opera. I like classical music. I don't even like Broadway shows particularly, I like plays. It's not exactly my thing. Would I go see one if my father wasn't in it? Perhaps not, because my Yiddish isn't that good. I think now that -- they have earphones, don't they?

IM:Um-hm.

AK:That you can hear it in English? Or maybe see it? Do they have the captions?

IM:Yeah. Um-hm.

AK:Like in the opera, they have the captions. Yeah, you know, I might, but it's -- I mean, I would rather go to an opera. (laughs) Sorry.

IM:No. (laughs) That's perfectly fine. How has language influenced your sense of identity? You grew up in a household with two grandparents who spoke Yiddish, and you went to camps where you were involved in Yiddishkayt.

AK:Um-hm.

IM:How would you reflect on that?

AK:I was very rich. It was very -- Yiddish is a wonderful language. Yiddish is a language to laugh with. Yiddish is a language to cry with. When I hear Yiddish songs, I think about my father singing them, and it brings tears to my eyes. It's just -- it's a beautiful language. And it has a wonderful history. It means a lot to me. And, you know, when I walked in here and -- you know, there's a lot of things written in Yiddish. And you know, like, right away, whenever I see Yiddish, I stop and I read it. And I'm, like, so happy about doing it.

IM:How has your relationship to, or interest in, Yiddish evolved over your lifetime?

AK:Well, I haven't really -- oh, actually, I did. I took a course in it in New York -- let's see -- quite a few years ago. You know, I live in New Jersey, so I -- and I'm just trying to think -- Workmen's Circle, I think. I think it was the Workmen's Circle -- in the East -- would you know?

IM:I know of the Workmen's Circle, but I don't know --

AK:Yeah, I can't remember the street. It was some place on the East Side in the thirties or twenties -- I can't remember. The problem was that the course I took was a little too easy for me, but the one that would have been -- the next one would have been a little too hard. So, I took it for a semester or whatever it was, and I found it a little boring, and I guess that was the end of it. But 61:00I'll have you know that our son was married up at our house in Vermont this past summer, and we had a klezmer band. And I think they played here.

IM:Great.

AK:(laughs) And they were the hit of the wedding. Everybody loves it -- klezmer.

IM:How, if at all, have you talked about your connections to Yiddishkayt with your own children?

AK:Oh, yes. Yes. They know quite a --

IM:Can you talk a little bit about that?

AK:Well, no -- I mean, you know, I'll throw in a few words and I'll talk about -- I mean, I always talk about history with -- the history of my life with my kids. And they always throw in a few Yiddish words. Now, they -- I'm just trying to remember -- yes, my son -- our son and daught-- okay, we lived in Mexico when our eldest daughter was -- let me just think. Our kids all went to -- okay. 62:00Wherever we lived, we'd join a synagogue, just so we could meet Jewish people. We lived in the Far East, we lived in Mexico, we lived in England, always joined a synagogue. In -- let me just think -- the question was, again, about our kids? Right. In the Far East, we joined a synagogue, but they were young then. Not Yiddish. Wherever we went, they did Hebrew. Yeah. 'Cause our twin son and daughter had a b'nai mitzvah. And it was in a Reform shul near us in New Jersey. It was Hebrew. It was Hebrew, not Yiddish. There were no Yiddish places for them to go where we lived, so it was Hebrew.

IM:How would you characterize your connection to Yiddish and Yiddishkayt and 63:00Eastern European Jewish heritage in terms of your broader sense of Jewish identity?

AK:I think of myself mainly in that way. I don't really -- and I never really have felt like a Yankee. (laughs) It's funny. I always identify first with being Jewish. That's my identity. And I won't say Polish Jewish, because, you know what, they did us no favors, so I don't really feel Polish Jewish. I feel Jewish. And Jewish first, American next, I have to say. That's how I feel.

IM:And how do you see Yiddish and Yiddishkayt and culture in terms of that identity?

AK:Well, I would say it's all part of it. It's how I grew up.

IM:Great. So, is there anything else you would like to add before we end?

AK:No. I thank you very much for this opportunity.

IM:Great. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to speak with you.

AK:Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]