BEL AND SHERWIN KAUFMAN ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney, and today is April 1st, 2014. I'm here in New York City with Sherwin and Bel Kaufman. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have both of your permission to record?

SHERWIN KAUFMAN:Yes.

BEL KAUFMAN:Yes.

CW:Thank you. I'd like to start by asking you to tell me the story of how your grandparents met.

BK:Would you like to take it?

SK:My grandfather, Sholem Aleichem, at a young age was a tutor. And my 1:00grandmother, who lived with her wealthy parents, needed one. And he became her tutor. That's how they first met.

BK:Well, I think they should know that this was the estate of a very rich landowner, Loev, whose only daughter, Olga, was fourteen. Sholem Aleichem spent three years as her tutor. They read together. They laughed together. They walked together. Those were happy days for him. Obviously, they fell in love. And 2:00that's when his three years of happiness ended. Her father learned of this. And do you remember how Sholem Aleichem discovered he was fired? He woke up one morning at the Loevs'. The house was deserted. There was an envelop on the dining room table -- his salary. He was fired. But eventually, he came back and married.

CW:Where did he go after? How did they end up getting married?

SK:I don't remember that.

BK:Well, there's a confusing story of what was happening to Sholem Aleichem while he was away. Something to do with another woman, but -- our grandmother, Olga, went abroad to -- anyhow, he finally came back. But --

CW:They eloped, right?

BK:(pause) I guess you would call it "eloped" today. They ran off. They ran off. 4:00That was very brave in those days.

CW:Can you tell me about the home that you grew up in together in New Jersey?

SK:Yes. We grew up together in Newark, New Jersey. There were three separate homes that we had there. Both of us -- being nine years older, her schooling was --

BK:Oh, shucks! You gave away my age.

SK:Yes. (laughs) I knew it would come out, anyway. So we grew up there. And I went to public school there and then the high school. She went to a different high school. Now, I left Newark before Bel, because at the age of almost seventeen, I entered college in New York -- Columbia. Bel remained in Newark while she had much more schooling at that point. Do you want to tell them about it?

BK:I went to high school in Newark.

CW:What was the presence of Sholem Aleichem in your home? When was he talked about?

SK:He was talked about every year. We call it the yahrzeit. And from the time when -- the first yahrzeit I remember was at his daughter Marusi's house. And that was for several years. And then it moved on to Bel's home and then to my home. And finally, when there were too many friends and relatives, as it were, it went into the Brotherhood Synagogue in New York that could accommodate many more people. So the earliest was in the yahrzeit.

CW:Can you describe what you do for the yahrzeit?

SK:We meet. We read funny stories. And then we have libation. But during the 7:00funny stories, there are many eminent people who speak at these. And some of them are in English, a few in Yiddish. Because Sholem Aleichem in his will wrote that "You should read my stories in whatever language is most comfortable." Far-sighted enough to say that.

BK:This was part of Sholem Aleichem's last will -- an extraordinary document which is published in the book of ethical wills -- in which he says, on the 8:00anniversary of his death, whoever remains in his family, friends, others, come together, read his merry story -- one, he said, but now we read many.

CW:Which one?

BK:We pick them each year. "Read a merry story and remember me with laughter." And so we do. And this has been an inviolable tradition in our family. Once a year, in May.

SK:It begins with reading his will in Yiddish, and then a translation into English for benefit of those who do not understand.

CW:And who attends?

SK:Family and friends.

BK:Anyone.

SK:By invitation only. It is not just for anybody.

BK:Whoever is listening. Anyone can come.

CW:Can you explain your idea about why he chose Sholem Aleichem as his pen name?

BK:I think it's because he was really a folk writer -- a true folk writer. Wrote for the people. So the name -- "Hi, hello, how are you?" -- is suitable.

SK:This is this year's yahrzeit, which you'll be getting in the mail.

CW:Could you just read this little quotation, maybe, one of you?

SK:"Gather with my children and with the grandchildren, and with just good friends, and read this last will of mine, and pick out a story -- one of the really merry ones."

BK:Very good. That's beautiful. Did Linda make it?

SK:(laughs)

BK:I mean, did she compose it?

F:Linda did it. Yes.

CW:What do you think about Sholem Aleichem as a pen name?

SK:I think it's a great name. Because people remember it for many reasons. It means "greetings," "How do you do?" And a famous pen name as well.

CW:Could you describe his style of writing to someone who hasn't read it before? What is his style?

BK:It was really talky. He wrote the way people talk -- monologues. And lends itself to being read alone beautifully. They were mostly all in the first person. And his characters have become memorable. But he wrote the way people talk.

CW:Anything else about his style?

SK:I think that describes it very well. Exactly.

CW:And who did he write about?

BK:Imaginary characters -- which, in a good writer's hand, become more real and true than real characters.

CW:When and where were these taking place -- his characters, usually?

BK:I didn't understand.

CW:Where and when were -- the setting?

SK:Well, many of them were in a little shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community] called Kasrilevke. And this became a place that really 13:00describes Jewish peasantry at the time. And his characters -- all of them, of course, with humorous tidings -- often came from there.

CW:How much of his writing have you read? How much of his literature have each of you read of his?

BK:Well, I've read everything. Not, unfortunately, in Yiddish. I understand it but I cannot read it. Even his novels. Which are not great -- they're good. But 14:00his short stories are magnificent.

SK:There are many translations into English of his short stories, and I've read them. And --

BK:Our mother used to read to us when we were little.

SK:Yes.

BK:His stories.

SK:In Russian.

CW:At bedtime or at a certain time?

SK:No. At whatever time. I remember once when I was very ill - very ill -- she would read some of his humorous stories to make me feel a little better. Those are memorable to me.

BK:When you laugh, you can't feel sick.

SK:That's right.

CW:Did you have a sense from stories or experience of what type of father Sholem Aleichem was?

BK:Not from his stories, but from his life. He was a true family man. He adored his family. And his family knew this.

SK:Yes.

CW:He had a name for his family, right?

BK:"My republic." (laughs) "My republic."

CW:Where did you see his influence in your daily life?

BK:That's a big question. I think it's difficult to answer. Can you --

SK:I agree that it's a difficult question to answer.

BK:Because it is there, but you cannot say specifically, This reminds me, this -- no, no. It's part of us -- who he and I are -- as a result.

SK:Well said.

CW:When do you find yourself thinking about him?

BK:I don't understand that question.

CW:Is there any time when you find he comes to mind --

BK:Well, any time he mentions or appears -- or his books or his films or --

SK:Yes.

BK:He's a public, heroic character. His name comes up everywhere.

CW:Do you have any memorable occasions of meeting one of his fans or admirers?

SK:Well, at the yahrzeit, of course, everyone is one of his fans --

BK:Yes.

SK:-- whether they're reading or just in the audience.

BK:True. Yes. And sometimes not at yahrzeit, we're introduced to someone -- This 18:00is Sholem Aleichem's grand-- or -- people like to identify us as his grandchildren. It's a great honor. And we carry it well.

CW:Now, you both are writers and artists. Do you see a connection from -- or were you inspired by your grandfather?

BK:I think my brother's writing, which is mostly humorous, is a direct inspiration. He writes humorous sketches, pieces.

SK:I've written a lot of poetry, memoirs, and short stories.

BK:Oh, lyrics, of course. Sholem Aleichem loved music.

SK:Oh, music! Well, that's --

BK:You inherited not only the humor --

SK:That is my chief inheritance -- not writing. Of course, Bel has a legacy of writing, being a famous author. And my music was an integral part of my life from childhood to today.

BK:Right.

SK:I grew up -- unlike other kids, I liked to practice piano -- Beethoven and so on. And at age eleven, I won a statewide -- that's New Jersey -- piano competition -- gold medal. My teacher thought I should go for auditions elsewhere, and my mother said, "No. He's gonna be a doctor, like his father." 20:00Which I became. And I have one memoir called "Music or Medicine," which describes the back-and-forth. So music is the part of my life that's every day.

CW:Do you have a sense from his writing -- or just your family knowledge -- what was important to Sholem Aleichem about being Jewish?

BK:That's an impossible question. I make it a statement without a question mark. It is important for Jews to feel Jewish -- period.

CW:Can you tell me a little bit about the language -- languages -- in your home growing up?

SK:Yes. The languages are one -- Russian. That was it. Everywhere we went, we spoke Russian to each other. Of course, English was part of it -- with friends and so on. But in the home, it was always Russian.

CW:And why was that important to your family -- to speak Russian at home?

BK:That was our native language -- the language we spoke since child--

SK:Our mother tongue --

BK:Or our father -- right.

SK:Yeah. (laughs)

BK:Right. Right.

CW:And you two still speak Russian together, correct?

SK:Yes we do.

BK:I think you and I are the only ones who still speak Russian to each other.

SK:We even laugh in Russian. (laughs)

BK:There is a Russian laugh. Though most of my Russian friends with whom I could speak Russian are gone. Who lives this long? So he is about -- and two or three old friends -- we don't use the language, so speak-- I'm amazed at how much 23:00Russian he has retained. He knows Russian perfectly. And yet, we don't use it in our daily lives.

CW:What has been the importance of Russian on your identities?

BK:I don't know what you mean.

CW:Do you consider yourself Russian?

BK:I consider myself a Russian Jewish woman. A Russian -- you mean, like a Cossack, with -- (laughs) --

SK:My passport reads, Born in Russia. That's one part.

BK:Right.

SK:And the other part is American.

BK:I was born in Berlin, but I'm not German.

SK:(laughs) Right.

CW:Can you tell me who was in your house growing up? Who were the people in your home growing up?

SK:Mother and father.

BK:True. Yes.

CW:And can you tell me a little bit about your parents?

BK:Cannot tell a little bit. That would have to be several thick novels. Maybe you can try.

SK:It requires an interview of another nature -- about two hours. Well, 25:00interestingly, my mother, who spoke Russian and a very broken English, did write some -- sketches she called them -- very, very short stories for the Jewish "Forward" -- in Russian, but they were translated by my father, who was a linguist, into Yiddish. He not only knew Yiddish well, but six other languages. He would help me with my Latin homework, even -- that sort of thing. And they were published. There were hundreds of them. That's just one aspect of the home.

CW:What, if anything, was Jewish about your home?

SK:Very little.

BK:I don't think so.

SK:Very little.

BK:In stepping into our home, you would not know we were Jew-- did we have a mezuzah? We didn't even have a mezuzah on the door.

SK:No. I was not bar mitzvahed. Never went to a synagogue growing up. So there was very little.

CW:What was the presence of Russia in your home -- when you looked at it? Were 27:00there things that reminded you or were from Russia in the home itself? Artifacts or --

BK:Yes. We might mention our father's bread sculptures that were made during the --

SK:Revolution.

BK:-- Bolshevik regime and are still with us. Bread sculptures. I forgot what the question was?

CW:Items from Russia that were in your home here.

BK:Yes. The bread sculptures. We had a samovar from Moscow which we gave to one 28:00of the Russian restaurants here. I have little Matryoshka dolls -- you know, with a doll inside a doll. Russian friends bring little gifts -- like wooden spoons painted -- I have a little corner in my home which has all the little Russian things.

SK:Right there on the table is the bust of Sholem Aleichem, which we have several -- gave one to each of my sons -- and Bel had one, too.

BK:I gave mine to --

SK:To YIVO, I think.

BK:Yes.

SK:YIVO.

CW:Do you know the story behind the busts -- how they came to be?

BK:[Bat Lejod?] -- the name of the sculptor, [Bat Lejod?]. I did know its history, but I knew it when I was only 101.

SK:(laughs)

BK:Now, I forgot.

CW:And do you have any artifacts from Sholem Aleichem?

BK:They are all in the Sholem Aleichem archives and museum. There's a museum in Tel Aviv. There is a new one -- just sprang up in Moscow -- Jewish museum. And wherever his archives are.

SK:I have his pen set, as you saw, on my desk --

BK:Yes. Yes.

SK:And I also have his diamond tie pin.

BK:That's very precious.

SK:Very precious. And we have a cane given by Sholem Aleichem to my father.

BK:Yes.

SK:We have that --

BK:Very fancy cane.

SK:-- fancy cane.

BK:I think I gave it to you.

SK:Yes. I have it right here.

BK:Yes. It's nice to have memorabilia. [BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Are there any favorite stories from Sholem Aleichem that you want to share?

BK:I've told you about Motl. The Tevye stories, his daughters, are very touching.

SK:The one about America with the three funerals.

BK:(laughs)

SK:First-class funeral costs a thousand dollars. Wonderful weather.

BK:(laughs)

SK:Second-class, five hundred.

BK:(laughs)

SK:So-so, and there are horses. Third-class, one hundred dollars. It's raining cats and dogs.

BK:(laughs)

SK:And if you can't even afford a hundred dollars, well -- then the deceased is shlepped to their grave. (laughs) Anyway, that's one favorite.

BK:Yes. It's very funny.

CW:This is difficult to answer, but I will ask: How does having this Sholem 32:00Aleichem as your grandfather impact your own identity -- affect your identity?

SK:Well, in any writing, they talk about who wrote it -- Sherwin Kaufman, a grandson of Sholem Aleichem, da-da-da-da, and so on. And -- now Bel has this classic novel, "Up the Down Staircase," as well as other writings. And she is 33:00known for not only her own writings, but the fact that she is a granddaughter of Sholem Aleichem. That is some legacy.

BK:I guess the only way that it affects writing is making humor out of tragedy. Ah, the terrible life of the shtetls, the poverty, the disease -- it's funny. Difficulties of the New York school system -- instead of describing them, I make it funny. It isn't really, but people laugh. That's part of Sholem Aleichem too.

SK:Yes. Of all the poetry I write, most of them are humorous.

BK:Yes.

SK:And that's part of it.

BK:Yes. He -- humor and music -- his great inheritance. And our whole family likes to laugh.

CW:What do you think the role of Yiddish is in Jewish culture today?

BK:I missed --

CW:What do you think the role of Yiddish is in Jewish culture today?

BK:That's a big question. Some people say it is dying. Some people say it is being revived. Maybe language is dying. Today is so full of absolutely unthinkable electronic gadgets. There may be no more language. We're living during a sense of great tradition. The young people today -- I don't understand them. They have a language that has nothing to do with the language I know.

CW:What do you think?

SK:I agree with that. It's all digital. People talk to each other by Twitter, by 36:00Facebook --

BK:(laughs)

SK:-- by looking at their iPhones. It's entirely different. And it's not just a few -- everyone has that.

CW:What do you think about Yiddish today?

SK:I agree. I -- some people think it's dying and others think it should be revived or maybe it's -- we can't tell what's gonna happen.

CW:Do you know any Yiddish? Did you learn any from your family?

BK:I understand it perfectly. In an emergency, I can speak it badly. But I cannot read it.

SK:I also -- I do not read it. I can say "oy vey" -- things like that. And 37:00that's about as far as it goes.

CW:Do you feel -- or think -- do you feel different when you're speaking Russian than English?

BK:Not I. To me, it's interchangeable. I often think in Russian and then translate it into English.

SK:Yes. I feel the same --

BK:Russian is closer, but they're equal.

SK:Yes. It's indistinguishable, one or the other.

CW:When you read Sholem Aleichem, which language do you read him in?

BK:The one we know -- English.

SK:English, of course.

BK:I have also read him in Russian. I have also read one of his novels in 38:00French. But that was before I became so old. I had a much better memory of languages.

CW:When you look at your grandfather -- his career -- now, do you see or understand things differently than when you were a child?

BK:When I was a child, it never occurred to me to think of his career. He was Papa Sholem Aleichem. He was funny. He was nice. We loved him. We never knew who he was to others.

SK:Yes. Although Bel did know him. He died four years before I was born, so I had no chance for that. But again, at the yahrzeit, we'd bring it up all the time. This is the ninety-eighth yahrzeit this year. That's a long time.

CW:People say that Sholem Aleichem is one of the Yiddish writers that really stood the test of time --

BK:That -- I missed --

CW:That he is a writer that stood the test of time -- that you can read today and still connect to. Do you agree with that?

BK:Yes.

CW:And what about it makes it so relevant?

BK:Humanity. Humor. Compassion. Imagination. Feeling for people. Ability to use language to describe feeling. What makes a good writer in any language, in any culture. (pause) You want to talk to him alone?

CW:I just have one more thing. I guess, what is the importance of the yahrzeit for you?

SK:For us, it's to bring back all the things that we love about this immortal 41:00writer, in a way that -- not only memorable, but brings out laughter. Again.

BK:Seeing the people who come -- the folk he wrote about, the folk he loved, the folk among whom he wished to be buried. They all come. And that's what he said in his will.

CW:Now, do you remember when you learned the news of his passing, Bel?

BK:Yes. I was in Odessa. And he died in New York. Hayim Nahman Bialik, who was a 42:00great Yiddish poet, lived on a dacha -- a country place -- near us. It was in the summer. He died in May. My mother describes that Bialik, who had a dacha next to us, with the newspaper: Sholem Aleichem died. And the two of them sat 43:00next to each other on the dacha, crying. And our mother wrote a lovely little piece -- she wrote short sketches. And she wrote a letter to her sister, Tissa, describing what it meant.

CW:You may have already said this, but what do you see of Sholem Aleichem in each other?

BK:Humor.

SK:Humor.

BK:Music.

SK:Music. He loved music, and wrote lyrics to many melodies. And my mother 44:00quotes him as saying, "If I weren't a writer, I would be a musician." That's how much he loved music.

CW:And what do you see of Sholem Aleichem in Bel?

SK:Humor.

BK:I like to make people laugh.

SK:Literature.

BK:I love to make people laugh. So does he.

SK:My wife says I've kept her laughing for almost fifty years.

CW:And are there any life lessons that you learned from this yikhes -- from this inheritance? The legacy?

BK:I missed the question.

CW:Life lessons that you learned from this inheritance?

BK:Life lessons? Wow. (laughs) Capital L, capital L. Life lessons? Every day is a life lesson. I eat breakfast, it's a life lesson. I pick up a pen, a life lesson. (laughs)

CW:Or anything you learned from him -- I just want to ask one more closing question, if there's anything you learned from this inheritance.

BK:From?

CW:This inheritance.

BK:I am who I am. I have learned to be me. The component parts of each little lesson is me.

SK:Ditto.

CW:(laughs) Great. Well, a sheynem dank, thank you both.

SK:Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]