FABIAN SCHNEDLER ORAL HISTORY

ALLIE BRUDNEY:This is Allie Brudney, and today is March 30th, 2015. I am here in Berlin, Germany with Fabian Schnedler, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Fabian, do I have your permission to record this interview?

FABIAN SCHNEDLER: Yes, you have the permission.

AB:Thank you. So, can you begin by just maybe briefly telling me about your family background?

FS:Yeah. I was born in Berlin -- West Berlin -- in 1973. And as a son of two non-Jewish, not so much Christian parents -- I had no contact to Jewish culture 1:00in my early childhood. But my father went to Israel in the 1960s. This was one of the first student groups from actually, a Christian movement, to go to Israel. And somehow, he came back with an interest in Jewish culture. So that this was the one thing. The other thing is that he started to listen to Yiddish recordings. (laughs) It's kind of strange, but there was a Yiddish record published in 1978 -- which is kind of maybe also a turning point in -- not German history, but, like, in German, Zeitgeschichte [contemporary history]. I don't know how to say this in English. There was a series called "Holocaust," it's an American series -- you could watch it in 1978 in Germany. So, I think -- 2:00I don't know. It's on the way -- on things changing in relations to how Germans and Germany dealt with their history. So, whatever. I mean, so there was Yiddish music in my childhood. So, this is maybe one reason why.

AB:I want to come back to that. Are there any sort of famous or infamous family stories that you were told?

FS:Oy. (laughs) I don't know. (laughs) I didn't think about that. Well, but this goes deeper than I -- that's a question, I mean, how far you want to talk about that. I think a general motivation -- I mean, there certainly is an interest for 3:00Jewish culture in Germany today. And I think one reason -- one motivation -- is, of course, the Shoah. I mean, it makes people think about this history. And if you move from watching or looking at Jews -- if you move from watching at them as victims, to who were they or who are they -- I mean, that's also, I think, a step from only looking at history but also looking, okay, what's today? I mean, there are Jews living in Germany today, and there's German-Jewish culture. So, I think also there is a source that -- I don't know. I mean, I heard some stories from my grandfather -- the one who was involved in the Christian movie which was against Hitler -- "The Bekennende Kirche [The Confessing Church]," it's called. But not too much. But a bit. And on the other hand, my other grandfather was in 4:00the S.A. So that's a typical German family story, I guess. But also, like, the good and the bad guy grandparents. So, whatever. I mean, that's what I tell now, because it's related to what maybe is my family and my life story. But, yeah. Otherwise, I don't know. I don't know. I can't think of anything right now.

AB:Where were your parents from?

FS:My father is from Berlin. And my mother is from Kassel in -- how do you say "Hessen" in English?

AB:Hessen.

FS:Hessen, yeah?

AB:I think so. [UNCLEAR]

FS:So, it's between Frankfurt and -- half the way Frankfurt to Hanover, actually.

AB:And, so you grew up in West Berlin?

FS:And I have a brother -- not to forget. I have an older brother. And we share a lot of interest in music, too. So we did play music together, actually, when 5:00we were young.

AB:So you grew up, though, in West Berlin while the wall still existed. Could you describe sort of the community you grew up in and a bit of what West Berlin was like back then?

FS:Um-hm. Phew. (laughs) Well, my parents moved from a part of the town which is called Schöneberg to -- (phone rings) -- a more suburban part -- this was my mobile phone (laughs) okay -- to Lichterfelde when I was six. So, something changed there. It's like, more inside of the city, more multicultural, more, I don't know -- to a more suburban, also very white, part of the city. So, that changed. I mean, and there it was kind of -- it was nice for children. I mean, there was a garden. We could play. But (laughs) there was hardly happening 6:00anything. But this was closer to the wall then. So, the wall was totally n-- on the one hand, it was totally normal. You know, when I grew up, the wall was there, so we didn't think about it too much. On the other hand, it was kind of adventurous, too, because we had relatives in the East, so, like, twice or three times a year, we would visit them. And it was very -- something strange you can't imagine today anymore. Like, there was a shopping mall in Steglitz, which is close to Lichterfelde. And you would go there and apply for this -- it's not a visa, it's, like a daily permission to go to the G.D.R. And, you know, there's a music shop, and then there's a little office of the frontier forces of the 7:00G.D.R. sitting there in their uniforms. And you would stand in the line and apply for this (laughs) permission. It's really strange. I mean, if you think today, like -- and you took it as it was, right? Okay. And when we went there, my brother and me, we were thinking, Okay, if we were living in the G.D.R., how would -- how could we escape? You know, what could you do? I think that -- and our relatives gave things to us -- like, something to eat, you know. They had a garden close to Berlin. And then, the people at the frontier would say, No, no, you can't take this with you. So there was a lot of -- I think there was a general angst in Europe at that time because of being afraid of a third world war, but this was more adventurous for us, in a way. Also, ambivalent -- also, 8:00my father was ambivalent. Do you say "ambivalent"?

AB:Yeah.

FS:Like, towards the G.D.R. On the one hand, he was a bit -- he was not really a leftist, but he was more left -- he was interested in the Spanish Civil War a lot, and there's another link, maybe. So, there was a kind of -- he didn't like the G.D.R., because he was from West Berlin, and there was 1948 and stuff -- the blockade. Do you say "the blockade"?

AB:Um-hm.

FS:Okay. So, he was in Berlin at that time. On the other hand, he was, I don't know, sympathizing with leftist movements -- so kind of strange, strange atmosphere in my family.

AB:Can you briefly describe what the blockade was?

FS:The blockade was an attempt by the U.S.S.R. to isolate West Berlin from the surrounding -- from West Germany, actually. So, they blocked the transit ways -- 9:00how do you call this? The highways, so no traffic could enter the city. And this way, they tried to get the whole of Berlin, actually. Yeah. And the Allied Forces helped Berliners to survive. And that's another thing that -- a-ha! -- interesting, another thing. So, on the one hand, my parents were, like, pacifists, actually. On the other hand, because the Americans helped them -- as my father liked to survive, that kind of had a very positive -- we didn't have German military forces -- in the city, so the German military, for me -- when they came to Berlin in 1990 -- is that working?

AB:Yeah, yeah.

FS:It looked very strange for me. I felt like, They don't belong here. But 10:00American forces, it was (laughs) -- I felt like they're totally normal. You know, they had their -- they were staying next to our house and stuff. So, okay.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AB:But so, you were talking about your parents. And can you describe what your home was like? Sort of the feeling?

FS:In which way?

AB:Well, you talked about how some of the political aspects, but what other aspects of culture were important?

FS:Okay. Well, in a way, my parents -- on the one hand, they are very liberal people, I think. Like, we could discuss everything in the family. On the other hand, I mean, if you say you can discuss everything, you never discuss everything, I think. So, this is the one thing. The other thing is that music was important. So, my father wasn't a good singer, actually -- in a way, he is, 11:00but -- you know, he was singing to me a lot as a child. And I think this passion for -- I don't care how it sounds, actually, but I want to tell you something through singing. I think that's one of the reasons why I became a singer, actually. And my mother was playing the piano. And my brother started to play piano and the guitar. I started to play the flute and then the clarinet and then the guitar. And so, we were playing a lot -- actually, my brother and me, mostly. So, the two of us had a lot of fun, I think, in our childhood. And the other -- there were little small houses -- you know, like, Reihenhäuser -- how do you call this? Like in the --

AB:Row houses?

FS:How do you call it?

AB:Row houses?

FS:Yeah. Could be.

AB:Town houses?

FS:Town house -- like, middle class -- they didn't have -- they were actually 12:00like most of the (laughs) town houses in the States, but they were small, so there were other children. At that time, there were other children in the other gardens, so it was quite nice. We had a palm house -- you know, like, in a tree, we had a house. And, you know, things like this.

AB:So, I imagine, first of all --

FS:(laughs) Does this question answer your question somehow?

AB:Yeah.

FS:Okay.

AB:But before the wall fell, there weren't that many Jews in Germany --

FS:Right.

AB:-- and especially in Berlin. And Lichterfelde is not where they would have lived.

FS:Um-hm.

AB:So what contact, if any, did you have with Jews and Jewish culture, other than this sort of Yiddish music via your father?

FS:Actually, I didn't have any cont-- the first answer is, I didn't have any contact. I think the strongest influence was actually me starting to think about the Shoah. Like, as a teenager, right? So I was in a kind of -- it was called 13:00"peace workshop" or something at school. So actually, we went to Majdanek. And our teacher, she was very involved in -- anti-racist movement, and also in anti-fascist movement. So, this was a political view on this. And in this kind of picture, Jewish culture actually didn't really matter. As I said before, they were more the victims of this bad fasci-- I mean, this fascist regime -- Nazis. But, you know, Yiddish culture or Jewish culture didn't really matter. The only thing that was there but I didn't really -- maybe it was there, yeah, but I didn't really know about this -- my father got friends with someone in Israel. 14:00It was the mother with her daughter. And they escaped from Germany in 1930s, actually. Yota Shvirin is her name, the daughter's name. And when I was really young, I mean, we had a lot of contact. Actually, she's not Jewish. Her father is Jewish, and died in 1948 in Israel in the war. So, I had contact to someone who knew Jewish culture very well. But I didn't really think about that. And the contact also got loose in that time. So now, we talked again. So, actually, my first way to Yiddish music and Jewish culture -- so this somehow went together -- was when we went to Majdanek, some friend of mine gave me a cassette, a tape, 15:00with Giora Feidman, the clarinet player. So, it's hard to say, but this was kind of the soundtrack for me experiencing Majdanek. Somehow, I felt it was expressing my feeling of sadness. I had uneasiness. And today, I think there was -- of course, there was a lot of cliché in that whole thing, right? I mean, Jewish culture as living culture wasn't actually a thing. We didn't talk about that a lot. And then we had this kind of very nice but also a bit kitschy Giora Feidman Yiddish music. But this was the first thing. And this led to more contact to Yiddish music. And I had a workshop with Giora Feidman, I think, in 16:001991 or 1993, I'm not sure. And there, I met other Germans who made Yiddish music. And they were in contact with Alan Bern. And we kind of started to have a band. And Jenny was studying with Alan Bern. So there was my source, then. And it went on.

AB:Great. So, I want to come back to that. But before we get too far away from the '80s, how would you describe sort of the general feeling or attitude about Jews and Judaism at that time in Germany?

FS:Well (sighs) I mean, I was a kid, right? I mean, it's hard -- if I talk about this now, I also tell you my thoughts about it, so it's kind of difficult, what I experienced. I mean, my experience was, I think I wasn't really in contact to 17:00Jews. For me, it wasn't -- and also, meeting Jews was something -- Okay, he's Jewish. I would, like, shock -- like, Okay, he's Jewish. Can I ask him or her about what her family is -- you know, there were a lot of blockades and fears, I guess, right? But also something sad, because, as I said, 1978 is this serious -- then, the first revival bands came to Germany, I think, in 1982 or '83. Was it the Klezmer Conservatory Band? Something is going on. And they kind of brought another idea of Jewishness. Like, they didn't -- this wasn't a tragic idea of a tragic culture or something, yeah? So, this focus was a different focus. So, something was happening there. But I think until '89, I feel it was 18:00kind of -- everything was a bit fixed, yeah? And with '89, somehow, Berlin got more international. And actually, I think in the last fifteen years, there was another -- if we're talking about Jewishness today in Berlin, it's a totally different thing than in the '80s, yeah?

AB:Yeah. So I guess I just have one more sort of historical question and then -- what do you remember of when the Berlin Wall fell?

FS:Actually, I don't remember what I was doing at that day, because that's the usual question everybody wanted to -- but I went -- a few days later, I was on that wall with the others. It was very adventurous. And saying, like, I don't 19:00know, "Stasi, weg [Go away, police]!" and stuff like this. At some point, we felt like -- and it was safer for me as a West Berliner, because, okay, now these authorities are not authorities anymore. And also, it felt like an open window or something could happen now. I mean, I was young, but we were thinking about, Maybe that we don't need a military anymore. Maybe, you know, something is changing. The world will be a better place. And today, this doesn't really look like this. Yeah. A totally different situation today. And also, I remember -- this was another thing -- you know, the East Germans, they would call them "the brothers and sisters in the East," right? Also, difficult, I think, to say that. Because there was a hierarchy in that, too. Because the west side relatives had money, and the others didn't have. But they were starting to visit us. And my mother would make coffee and stand at the street (laughs) and give it 20:00to people, because they didn't have money, which was kind of a nice thing to do. On the other hand, [UNCLEAR] -- (laughs) I don't know. It was strange. And also, it's interesting, to some of these relatives we had contact over years and years when the wall was there, and when the wall came down, this interest wasn't there anymore. You know, like, that that kept the thing alive -- like, that we should have this contact. And now you could choose whom to meet or not. And it wasn't a political thing anymore. So it's interesting that some of these people I didn't see again, right? So that's interesting. Okay.

AB:So, I guess I want to jump forward a little bit now. I know you work for the Jewish Museum here, as well, and in a number of bands. You mentioned briefly how you started and got into music, but can you maybe tell me a little more about 21:00how you started singing and playing all of those various instruments?

FS:Yeah. So, I was playing -- it's very simple. I mean, you start with the flute. And (laughs) then you change for the clarinet or another wind instrument, right? So I had the clarinet. Then I had Giora Feidman, so I wanted to -- I was starting to play like him, because I was fed up with sheet music. And then I had this workshop with him. So, at the same time, I started to play the guitar and to sing as a teenager. Actually, I played the guitar to accompany myself singing.

AB:What formal training did you have, if any?

FS:A musical teacher. I had a guitar teacher and then later had a singing 22:00teacher. And I had a clarinet teacher who stopped having lessons with me because I was too lazy -- because I didn't do this anymore, what he wanted me to do. Okay, but then, I had this. So, this was great, right? I had these possibilities to express myself. I kind of feel like I have to shortly tell this story from -- I met Alan Bern. Then I went to Prague. I had a band there. And I worked at the Jewish community in Prague. So there, I met Jews. (laughs) And I met Jewish culture. And the Czech. And I had a klezmer band. And when I came back in 1997, I had my first klezmer band. And there, again, I was listening to Klezmatics and 23:00Brave Old World. And in 1997, I had my first workshop with Brave Old World. So Michael Alpert was an important teacher for me. And Alan Bern keeps being an important inspiration for me. I mean, he's a teacher and a friend, both. And so, if you look from 1997 to today, this is kind of a steady link.

AB:How did you then decide to start learning Yiddish?

FS:Actually, I was learning Yiddish in the first place from listening to the recordings. And of course, I mean, if you speak German, there are certain obvious mistakes you make in the pronunciation from the -- well, I guess I felt 24:00like if you want to take this more seriously, you should learn Yiddish. And so, I went to Oxford for the Yiddish Summer Program in 1997 -- so this was together with the musical workshop -- and started to actually, learn alef-bet [Hebrew alphabet] first. And then there was a point when I didn't know how to go on, what to do now, next step in my life, because I was starting to be an actor, but it somewhat didn't work this way -- how I felt it should do. It didn't work out. So I felt like, Okay, so do something -- how do you say this? What do you want to do? And I said, Okay, Yiddish is something important right now for me. And I started to -- I studied two years Yiddish in Trier at the university.

AB:Can you describe that program?

FS:It's the only full-time Yiddish faculty -- it's the only faculty where you 25:00can study Yiddish full-time in part of a master program in Germany. So that's why I chose Trier. And it was Professor Timm at the beginning, and then Simon Neuberg -- he's now the professor there. And, I mean, it's a very intense program, because, I mean, there are, like, twelve students or fifteen students, and there's a professor and another teacher. And they're focusing on early Yiddish in the Middle Age -- like, the main question is: How do Yiddish develop from Middle High German and Hebrew and French sources? So, they would -- actually, their work, they would look at Rashi and look -- or how much Yiddish is in there and stuff. So it's very linguistic, actually. But there were some 26:00seminars about Sholem Aleichem. So there was a lot of -- you could do a lot of culture research, too.

AB:Who were the other students at that time?

FS:Well, students -- let me think. But one of the lecturers was [Avi Schafisch?] at the time when I was there. And the students -- oh, it's too long ago, I'm sorry. I somehow knew, it's kind of a different approach to Yiddish. So actually, I didn't continue, because I felt like I wasn't so much interested in the linguistic approach, but more into culture -- literature, actually, and music. So, I felt -- I didn't want to choose a linguistic master project. So that's why I went back to Berlin then.

AB:How did people often respond to your studying Yiddish -- to your friends and family?

FS:I mean, they were cool with it. As you can see, there was, like, already this kind of openness for Yiddish, too, in my family. As I was studying something, I wasn't doing (laughs) -- you know, I was doing something. So, they were okay with it.

AB:How would you say that Yiddish -- how do you think Yiddish is generally perceived in Germany?

FS:In?

AB:In Germany.

FS: That's a very broad (laughs) question. Oy. That's really hard. I mean, there are so many different layers, I think. It's the one thing like, the mehrheit Gesellschaft [general population] -- like, non-Jewish -- and maybe Jewish 28:00Germans in the media. But then there's also this -- okay, where should I start? On the one hand, I think it's still connected to a picture of the Holocaust, yeah? Of the Shoah. So people don't look at it as a living language. That's the one thing. Then, there is this idea of shtetl Nostalgie [nostalgia for Jewish small-town life in Eastern Europe], too. So actually, it's not so different from the States, I guess. Because we have these two things. Whatever. I mean, you have these two things. And it's also -- you have to deal with these expectations and find a way around them when you perform Yiddish in Germany. Although people understand more, that's good, but still, you have to work for these things. Then, okay, because of this link to nostalgia, there's -- like, in Jewish -- how 29:00do you say? In Judaistic academia -- so there are a lot of non-Jews in there -- there's a tendency to look down on Yiddish, especially on Yiddish cultural activities today. Because people think it's, like, a cliché thing. So that's kind of difficult, too. So, you're kind of between a lot of -- between the chairs. Like, on the one hand, people think it's a dead language and it's cliché -- one of the cliché of, you know, jumping Hasids. And on the other hand -- like, in academia, they say, Okay, it's cliché, we don't want it. So, who are the ones who really take it for serious? And then only if you -- that's a bit sad, I have to say. I mean, I think also in the Jewish Museum, it was a process to give -- you know, the Jewish Museum thinks of itself as a German 30:00Jewish museum, or as a museum of Jews in Germany, to be precise. And Yiddish is, it's part of it, but it's not what they think is the main language. So, it's more Hebrew and German, then. So also, there, Yiddish is at the side. And then, where are the places, right? So it's small. I mean, things grew in the last years. And I'm very happy about it. But it's still kind of -- yeah. It could be better appreciated, I think.

AB:So you just mentioned the Jewish Museum. I guess I'd like to ask you a little bit about what you're working on there. Can you first just describe what that museum is to someone who's never been there?

FS:Okay. So this is, like, the main Jewish museum in Germany. There's a 31:00Frankfurt Jewish Museum and there's Fürth Jewish Museum. So there are actually quite a few Jewish museums in Germany. But the biggest one -- it's actually the biggest Jewish museum in Europe, too. And its focus is actually on life. It is dealing in its architecture with the Shoah, but its main focus is Jewish life before and after the Shoah. It's a very successful -- in the way that people are visiting it. And in Germany, it has a big reputation. So, yeah. And it's famous for its architecture by Libeskind.

AB:Can you describe what it looks like a little bit?

FS:In English? From outside, it's a very close building -- closed building. 32:00There are hardly any windows. And the whole thing is out of proportion -- like, there are hardly any ninety-degree angles. And a lot of gaps -- voids, that's how Libeskind called it. So the distortion of the Shoah is in -- it's in the building. You can see it. And that, I think, is the idea -- that you can't think, talk, whatever, feel Jewish culture today in Germany -- like, if you look at history, or today, without looking at the Shoah.

AB:So what are you working on there?

FS:I used to work as an academic volunteer -- that's something in Germany that exists. It's something you do after your master. (laughs) And I used to work for the special exhibition department. So, there was one interesting project about 33:00East European Jews in Germany in the 1920s. This was a big project for me, and a very satisfying project, too. But then, this was over (laughs) and I was continuing in the education department. And that's what I do now. And so, I'm actually involved in archive pedagogy and in the collaboration with a school in Kreuzberg. It's in Kreuzberg, the Jewish Museum, and it's an idea by Blumenthal, the former head of the museum, to kind of have a broader idea of what the museum is doing. It's not only showing and collecting Jewish culture and objects, but it's also having a standpoint in political and educational discourse in Germany today. And there is the idea that, you know, people who have less chances to be 34:00part -- like, to make -- just to educate themselves in the educational system. They have bad starting positions. They're, socially disadvant-- disadvantaged? I don't know how you say this in English. It's like a collaboration, and it's very interesting. Very interesting work.

AB:Can you talk a little bit more about the exhibit that you were giving? Because I know that was fairly big. Like, I read about it in various --

FS:So for some years, Berlin was a center for Yiddish culture in the 1920s, especially from 1920 to 1925, 1923 -- for different reasons. And so, a lot of 35:00the writers -- and also, Hebrew writers -- Bialik, for example -- Bergelson, the Yiddish writer -- lived in Berlin at that time, and also developed their way of writing and thinking. So it's like a -- I don't know, something was happening at that time. And also, there were a lot of Yiddish books published in Berlin at that time. So the idea was to take different artists -- different writers, painters -- and their experience in Berlin. But also, the whole migration process was part of the exhibition. Because of World War I, there's a lot of migration happening, and inside this bigger migration from East Europe to the West and also the States, there's also Jewish migration. And the third idea was to show how these East European Jews were perceived in German media at that 36:00time. Because there's a very negative picture of the East European Jew. Like, they're Ostjude [Eastern Jews]. And then, also, it's, like, a discourse at that time. And we kind of wanted to deconstruct that picture, or show how it was constructed. And we also worked with the -- so, my task in this whole exhibition was to show the discourses that were taking place. So I was reading a lot of Yiddish newspapers. So we taped some Yiddish speakers, and they had to read these articles. And we took pieces of the articles in an audio room, you could hear these discourses. So this was the idea. And there, also, we were 37:00discovering some Yiddish recordings. I mean, they were researched already, but we didn't know they're there. And this is, like -- they were from Yiddish record label situated in the Scheunenviertel, which is a part where a lot of East European Jews were living. It's called "Semer," in Grenadierstrasse. And they were publishing Yiddish music in the 1930s, which is very interesting -- like, between 1930 and 1936.

AB:So what has been done with those recordings?

FS:There's the Bear Family Records label has published it. And also, there's a thick book next to it, so you can read -- get some informations about these artists. But also, in the context of the exhibition, Alan Bern, me, and some other people -- like Daniel Kahn, Sasha Lurje, Paul Brody -- we started a 38:00project to restage these songs again. So that's one of my favorite projects, I have to say, too. It's called Semer Project. And it's the idea to give voice to these songs again.

AB:So, can you talk about that a little bit more?

FS:Yeah. I mean, it's (sighs) -- there's a lot to -- it's a very heterogeneous catalogue of music. It's Russian music, it's German music, it's opera, it's cantorial music, it's Yiddish theater song, it's Yiddish folk song, it's German classical music. It's really wide, and it's -- there's some cantors or rabbis who sing, that -- I found them on the internet, that people published it. But I 39:00think they're highly -- like, Israel Bakon -- some people who -- with great voices. And so we took some of these songs and staged them again. And for me this was interesting, too, because I kind of didn't sing a lot of religious Yiddish music, because I felt like -- the one thing is, I'm not religious, on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm not Jewish. So it took me a while to feel that I kind of have the trust to do it without -- I don't know, not mastering it without -- maybe some people think this is not something you should do. And now in this project, I sing a cantorial piece. I'm still a bit uneasy about it, but I think it's a good thing, you know, to try things. And then we found -- it's called, "Kadish -- der yidisher soldat [Kaddish -- the Jewish soldier]." And 40:00it's actually a German song that has been translated into Yiddish. "Kaddisch -- der jüdische Soldat [German: Kaddish -- the Jewish soldier]." And Lorin is involved in the project, I forgot to say, Lorin Sklamberg. And he sings the Yiddish as in the German. So there's some really nice meeting points between Yiddish and German. And this was also a subject in the last years in Yiddish Summer Weimar, where I'm also involved in. So I feel -- I think it's happening. Over the years, after the Shoah, in the academia, German and Yiddish -- there was, like, this strict separation. Like, you shouldn't speak daytshmerish [German-influenced] Yiddish. And if I listen to these recordings, they're so daytshmerish (laughs) somehow. Anyway, to lose the fear of -- I mean, I know 41:00that should be, Yiddish is Yiddish, but, you know, people spoke in different ways. It's very interesting. And for me, it's a really -- it's a fruitful meeting in these recordings. And to see that Jewish culture was so diverse in the 1930s, even under the Nazis. This is very, very interesting.

AB:Are you still working on that pro-- is that an ongoing --

FS:It's an ongoing project, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We are hoping to produce a CD this year. Let's see if it's gonna happen. And we're touring -- not too much, but a bit. Yeah. And we want to bring this to the States, too. Let's see. Yeah.

AB:Can you describe -- are there other meaningful projects or meaningful 42:00performances that you have? Some key ones that were meaningful for you?

FS:Um-hm. Yeah. I mean, I had the Klezmatics in nineteen ninety-something in Berlin on the Heimatklänge Festival. And this was interesting for me, because it didn't feel like Yiddish folk song -- I mean, it was Yiddish folk song, too, but it didn't feel -- it was a different way of performing it. So this was interesting. And also, I like what Chava Alberstein and the Klezmatics did with their recording. Then, it was important for me to meet Beyle Schaechter-Gottesman. She came to Weimar. And she was another bridge coming from an older time and inhabiting that Yiddishness. But also, she wrote her own 43:00Yiddish songs today. So this was interesting for me. I mean, I think with these two influences, and also maybe Marilyn Lerner and Adrienne Cooper -- because they -- no, it wasn't Adrienne Cooper, it's -- what's the singer? So Marilyn Lerner's attempts to do something new with Yiddish music. I started to write my own Yiddish songs. And I have, like, this, Yid-- I called it Yiddpop, but actually, it's not Yiddpop anymore -- like, Yiddish pop music. But now, it's just -- a singer-songwriter in German Yiddish, it's called "Fayvish."

AB:I want to come back to that in a second, but you've mentioned these people you met at partly Weimar and KlezKamp and -- where else? Were you at KlezKanada?

FS:KlezKanada and KlezKamp. Um-hm.

AB:So how do you think that these various festivals have sort of impacted both your work and you personally?

FS:Um-hm. Well, I think especially Yiddish Summer Weimar -- for an artistical development, it was very, very important for me. Like, opening my view on music generally, but also on Yiddish music. Not limiting myself. And also, it makes you learn, learn, learn, learn -- you don't stop. If you go there, you don't stop learning something new. That's the one thing. And also, it keeps you in touch with new Yiddish material very often, and other people who do Yiddish music, so you get contact to other people. And also, you see other people and their way -- how they deal with this culture. And this is maybe also interesting -- I mean, there are a lot of non-Jews going to Weimar here in Germany. But there's something happening in the process there. I don't know. Like, people start to rethink a lot of things, I think. And then, I mean, the next step, if 45:00you go to Yiddish Summer, then you want to go to -- I mean, there, you meet people who go to the other festivals, like Michael Winograd or the dance teachers like Steve Weintraub. So I met all of these people, and I wanted to -- actually, Winograd, when I went to KlezKamp 2006, he was (laughs) very, very young still, so he wasn't in -- he came to Yiddish Summer later. But anyway, I mean, these were people you meet -- you're meeting them, and you feel kind of a connection, although these people are living all around the world. So I think for this kind of feeling of some group identity, which is like a Yiddish musician identity then, it's important. I think it's good to have these festivals.

AB:So I want to sort of jump a bit and talk again about the revival of Yiddish music in Germany that we've touched on. So, to start, what is your take on the idea of cultural revival?

FS:Well, that's what a lot of people have said already. I mean, in a way, it's not a revival, because it's not -- some things are not there anymore, so you can't revive them. So it's a reinterpretation, actually. That's what I think. But that's useful, you know? I mean, I think that's the whole Yiddish culture today is a totally different thing than -- I don't know, in the 1930s or in the 1920s. I mean, even then, we tend to see this as a holistic thing. I mean, have a look from the nineteenth century on, the socialistic movements, people moving to the States -- there are so many things happening in Yiddish culture in the 47:00twentieth century that it's -- of course, there's this loss. And we've kind of tried to get what has been there. That's also, I think, part of the process -- understand what has been there, learn what has been there. And you know, there are some of these really Yiddishist -- Yiddishist Yiddishists who know all this literature -- and I can say, "Okay, I've read this and this and a bit of Bergelson and that, and Moyshe Kulbak." But, you know, I didn't -- there's so much richness in this culture. And that's, of course, said if you really want to dive into that. And you need a life. But I think it's totally -- yeah, it's what we should do now. It's like finding our own ways -- going back to the traditions and the literature that's there, but also doing something with it. I mean, if I use this term "museum" now, I mean it in a bad way -- I mean, put it under glass 48:00and leave it there and not look at it anymore, or, you know, not doing something with it. So, as an artist, you want to do something with it. Also, the meaning of Yiddish, I think, changes. If I say "sholem-aleykhem [peace unto you]," it's a symbol for, you know, I'm part of a musical Yiddish or klezmer or Yiddishist group -- people who are interested in Yiddish -- and it's not the normal "sholem-aleykhem" I would say on the street. Like, people here in my neighborhood say, "salaam alaikum [Arabic: peace unto you]" -- like, "salaam [peace]." Like "sholem-aleykhem," "aleykhem-shalom [traditional greeting and response in Yiddish]." It's not this. It's a different meaning, right? Does it answer the question?

AB:Yeah. So, what role do you think performing artists play -- or don't -- in the transmission of culture?

FS:I think that here, they play an important role. I mean, people go to concerts 49:00and -- I mean, if you look at the people who go to the festivals, I think there's only a little number who really speaks Yiddish. Even the musicians don't speak Yiddish. Like, some of them don't speak Yiddish, right? So, we wish (laughs) people would speak more Yiddish. But I think music is important -- or, anyway, performance artists. Because -- I mean, people meet, people watch something, people refer to it, take something home, do something with it. That's how it works, I think.

AB:Would you consider yourself an activist for Yiddish?

FS:I used to, actually. (laughs) But -- I don't know. I guess I'm still, a bit. 50:00I'm right now also not so much involved in Yiddish anymore. I mean, I read a bit Yiddish sometimes, from time to time. I sing Yiddish. I always had the picture of, like, hardcore Yiddishists in front of me, and then I say, No, these are the activists. (laughs) I'm not. But of course. I mean, anyway, I am, I think. I mean, I want Yiddish to be spoken. I want Yiddish to be heard. I want Yiddish to be understood and valued. That's a very important point, I think.

AB:Is there a community of artists that are working in Yiddish in Berlin?

FS:What does that mean, "in Yiddish"? (laughs)

AB:Or klezmer or --

FS:I mean, I know that there's a Yiddish reading circle, where I don't go to 51:00(laughs) -- where I should go to. (laughs) And then, yeah, of course, yeah, there's a community. I mean, a lot of musicians moved to Berlin in the last -- at least in ten years. So now, there's really a community. We have two sessions monthly, even more than monthly -- Yiddish music sessions. And people from abroad come here to these sessions, meeting other people. And as you can see, like, the Semer project -- I think, like, eighty percent of the musicians -- like, Alan Bern, Paul Brody, Daniel Kahn, Sasha Lurje, Martin Lillich -- who's also involved a bit in Yiddish -- and me -- come from Berlin. Okay? So, you can have a really good klezmer band, or whatever band, with artists who know Yiddish culture in Berlin. Yeah, but it's not so much connected to the Jewish community. 52:00I mean, and that is not one community anymore. I mean, it's kind of developing to be much broader.

AB:How would you say that the Yiddish scene in Berlin has changed over the years?

FS:It got more international. And I think that's a very interesting and nice thing to happen. But that's generally, I mean, I think, in Berlin. Yiddish and Jewish is becoming a part of a whole, more diverse Berlin. It's getting less and less like an exotic thing to watch at, to listen to. There are people from there and here, and people with these and that backgrounds, and they're all part of the city. So especially in the Maxim Gorki Theater, there -- they see themself 53:00also in this discourse, and they make Yiddish events there. I like this, because it's -- I don't know, like a Jewish -- non-Jewish talk, or like a tunnel, or something limited -- if it's a broad thing. And there's Russian, too, you know? And there's English, too, you know? So there are a lot of -- yeah. It's a broader view.

AB:Can you describe the Maxim Gorki Theater a little bit?

FS:Oh God. (laughs) Well, it developed from a smaller theater in Kreuzberg, the Ballhaus Naunynstrasse, where -- it's a [UNCLEAR]. Okay. How can I say this? How can I put this? For example, there are only a few actors with a migrant 54:00background in the German state theater system, okay? So it's very white and German, to be clear. (laughs) So they started to kind of break this picture and say, like -- first, they say, We tell our own stories. But then, they were open to a lot of other stories. And when the director got the head of the Maxim Gorki Theater there, they went on with this process. They, I think, they do the same -- they think the same way. It's not, like, you know, these are the Germans with migrant backgrounds on staff, you know? Then, you have another label to put on, and some people say it's the new Germans or whatever -- in this whole discourse of, who's a German? And we know -- you know, this whole discourse from -- the Nazi discourse, and then there's an earlier discourse. It's very much on -- how 55:00do you say "Herkunft"?

AB:Background.

FS:Background. But it's background, where your parents and your grandparents come from. Like, it's a totally different idea from the French or the States' idea of a nation. So, this is changing. We're happy about that. And maybe because it was so -- so much focused on "Blut und Boden" -- that's, like the Nazi terms, right?

AB:And what did that mean?

FS:It's, like, "blood and earth." Like, where you live and where you -- and the idea that your blood comes from what your parents gave to you. It's like a racist idea of who you are. Yeah. So that's why it took so long, I think. But it's happening now.

AB:What's it like to be a performer of Yiddish in Yiddish in Germany?

FS:Actually, I talked about this already. I mean, it's like -- on the one hand, you have possibilities. On the other hand, the wave of Yiddish -- you know, like, people really digged Yiddish -- liked it -- in the 1990s, it's over. People still appreciate a Yiddish performance, but it's not hip or -- there's a smaller audience, to put it right, than some years ago. And then there's -- I think it's a special thing, the Yiddish performance. Because everything that is related to Jewishness is special, still, in Germany. And then you have to deal with these expectations, right? And so you get some interest, because you are 57:00performing Yiddish. And on the other hand, you don't want to have that interest you get -- like, it's a bit -- it's ambiguous.

AB:Why do you think that it's changed since the '90s? Why do you think there's less interest?

FS:I don't know. I know that people wrote about that, that this change took place. And I also feel that it's harder to get a concept gig or something. I mean, Brave Old World and Klezmatics were touring all the time in the 1990s. They were touring a lot. Today, they're not. I mean, the Klezmatics still exist, and they could tour. (sighs) So on the one hand, I think it's because Germany's more diverse, and there are different, other things you can look at. I mean, there's so many things -- so many cultures, so many music. And on the other hand, maybe in the 1990s, when this new Germany was kind of having an identity 58:00process -- also in a bad way, in the early 1990s, you know, when refugee homes were bombed and stuff like this. Maybe it had some political sense. I can't say -- it played a certain role in the discourse, maybe. That's why people went there.

AB:So I know you've said you were also in Prague and then in Trier. How does the Yiddish scene differ in these various geographic places?

FS:When I was in Prague, I didn't -- I mean, most of these Jews from Prague spoke German to me, so -- there were some from Karpato-Ukraine [German: 59:00Carpathian Mountains] -- so some actually could have spoken Yiddish. But my Yiddish was poor at that time, so I didn't try. And in Trier -- I can't tell you, it's fifteen years ago now. It's -- how the Yiddish scene differs, or how the Yiddish differs?

AB:Yiddish scene.

FS:Okay. It's more linguistic in Trier -- it was, at that time, more linguistic. Otherwise, I think, the teachers are similar teachers. Like, in London, in New York, and in Weimar. So I think where people learn is not so different.

AB:So you touched earlier on the Yiddpop that you said isn't Yiddpop. Can you sort of explain more of what -- how you would actually describe it? (laughs)

FS:I don't have a term right now. I mean, I started, also, to -- that's interesting. When I was a teenager, I wrote English songs. And then I started to write Yiddish songs. And now, I'm starting to write German songs, which is interesting. So after writing Yiddish songs, I've started to write German songs. So I feel like it's more -- also, Daniel Kahn does it. And I take Yiddish songs or lyrics and translate them, or I take my German lyrics and translate them into Yiddish. So I play around with this. And it's not so much like a pop project. I mean, it's singer-songwriter, you could call it pop music, but -- so I didn't call it "Yiddpop" anymore. Actually, I felt like -- when I had the idea, when I started this in 2005 or something, I felt like, This must be -- this is the 61:00thing. Nobody ever tried this. And I felt like this must be -- This is finally the project that will pay [UNCLEAR]. And it didn't. I don't know. It was too -- in Germany, concert organizer said, Well, this is not klezmer. We can't sell it. It's not traditional. And it's really -- yeah, that's hard. It somehow develops now -- an audience for that -- but it's not so easy.

AB:Have there been any times where you've performed that are especially present in your mind, or especially meaningful?

FS:Well, it was interesting -- I can't remember right now, but it was interesting to perform on the Warsaw Jewish Festival, on this big, big square. 62:00And there were thousands of people. So, I think it never had that big audience before, so I was a bit shaky. And it was good. Otherwise -- in Weimar, actually, it's always a very open audience. So it's really nice to play there. A patient audience. That's something.

AB:Do you use Yiddish at all in your daily life, other than for singing?

FS:Only if I meet someone who speaks Yiddish. And it's not every day. (laughs) Unfortunately. I mean, if I meet some people on a concert, maybe -- I don't know, if I meet Michael Alpert or something, I'd speak Yiddish. Actually, it's 63:00nice -- especially if you speak to people who speak Yiddish as a mame-loshn [mother tongue, i.e. Yiddish], it's really nice. I mean, if you hear dialects where they come from, it's refreshing, I think. I think you need this from time to time. If you're performing Yiddish as an artist and you think about pronunciation and stuff, but -- still, you need this refreshment of real Yiddish talk. Especially with a Yiddish mame-loshn speaker, you have to really get into it again.

AB:Are there Yiddish native speakers in Berlin who you have contact with? Or --

FS:Right now, no. Of course, there are Yiddish speakers in Berlin -- native speakers -- but I'm not in contact with anyone right now. I know when we were in 64:00Frankfurt, the head of the cemetery -- and he's a Yiddish speaker -- and from Poland. Which was interesting, because a lot of these Jews on the Semer recordings came from Poland, so they have a Polish accent. So, I felt like, ah! He speaks like that! Ah!

AB:And from your perspective, what do you think is the place of Yiddish within Jewish culture?

FS:Oy. That's a hard question for me to answer. In Yiddish cult-- in Jewish culture, generally. Maybe there are different places. It's a history, it's a tradition, it's a place where Jews haven't looked at, for some reasons, for a 65:00while. I mean, there's this shift from -- I don't know, from New York, which is still Yiddish speakers, and with -- Mickey Katz -- the comedian who uses Yiddish and English. So people still understood him, understood the jokes. In the beginning 1950s, it's that, right? And there were still bulgars played on weddings. And that stopped. I mean, and then there's another discourse -- there's, like, Israeli culture and Hebrew culture, I think that's much more important for Jewish identity. I'm talking about this from an outsider perspective. And I talk about this because I've read things, it's not that I know that. (laughs) So this got much more important. And I think Yiddish was much more important before that, as an identity. To refer to it as part of -- or 66:00the identity -- I mean, if you look at the Bundists or the socialists who were leaving a religious life in Europe and starting a nonsecular, socialist, anarchist, whatever -- Yiddish life, but there still was a Yiddish life, right? But without Yiddish, I mean, what's there anymore, you know? So yeah, there are traditions and stuff. So, I think it's like a relative that is not very often invited to the table, I guess. That's what Yiddish is.

AB:So what do you see as the future of Yiddish?

FS:Well, I think it's becoming more and more a symbolic language. Like, people refer to it -- there are festivals. And then there are some people who speak 67:00Yiddish in the Orthodox communities, of course, and then some Yiddishists in the academia. And the non-religious people who speak Yiddish that are not connected to the academia, I don't know if they really exist anymore. I mean, there are hardly any non-religious people -- non-Orthodox people who speak Yiddish with their children, right? So, it's an Orthodox language and it's an academic and a festival language, I guess. So I think it will survive, but in a totally different, twenty-first-century background. And I mean, that's happening with the whole globalization process, anyway. So maybe it's a bit sad, but on the other hand, it's also a chance.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AB:Is there any other topic that you would like to touch on?

FS:Maybe a little thing. I mean, the one thing is that there's another project 68:00-- I'm still involved. It's "Schikker Wi Lot." It's a duo with Franka Lampe. And we were researching a song collection by Shmuel Lehman. He was a field researcher collecting songs in the first half of the twentieth century in what then became Poland. And he published a collection called "Ganovim lider [Songs of thieves]" in 1928 in Warsaw. So, we were staging this collection. We're trying to understand how to play this music, and to sing it. And we're right now producing a CD. So that's also interesting, because, I mean, there's so much connected to, Can we talk about Jewish ganovim [thieves]? Because there's a stereotype on Jews. I mean, can we touch that? This was a discussion between us. 69:00There are some songs that are known, but there are other songs that are not played in the scene right now. So it's interesting to stage this. And the other thing is that in the Fayvish project, I used some of the lyrics that I ran over in the exhibition research -- like, Dovid Bergelson, people know -- and then there are some Moyshe Kulbak poems that are written in Berlin. So I like to refer to a Berlin, 1920, '30s, today, and in -- especially if it's the area where I live -- to have this kind of research, and at the same place but different times. And then when Moyshe Kulbak left Berlin and went back, then, to the Soviet Union, he wrote a whole cycle -- it's called, "Disner Tshayld-Harold 70:00[Childe Harold from Disna]" -- on Berlin and its parts. And there's also a part on Wedding -- so I was writing a Yiddish hymn, on this part where we are right now, Berlin-Wedding -- which used to be the workers' district, actually. And so, there's this Yiddish hymn now about Wedding. It's called "Veding lid [Wedding song]." So it's --

AB:Can you explain what Wedding is like today, briefly?

FS:Yeah. Wedding today? Okay. It used to be a district of workers and communists and socialists. And today, it's -- in the last twenty years, it was an unemployed people's district, with a very heterogeneous population. And now, as the whole of Berlin gets -- do you say "gentrified" in English? Also, Wedding, you know, is changing. Still, for good, like still, in a good way. But you see, you know, the rent is going up and -- but it's still not the "in" district. It's 71:00not Kreuzberg, it's not Prenzlauer Berg. But when people are moving to Berlin, they have no chance -- I mean, they have to move to Wedding or to another place, because Neukölln, Prenzlauer Berg, and Kreuzberg are too much too expensive.

AB:And is there anything else that you'd like to add?

FS:No, I don't think so. I think I (laughs) -- I said most of what I wanted to say.

AB:Great. Then thank you so much. That was really wonderful.

[END OF INTERVIEW]