BERNICE MAYER ORAL HISTORY

ISAAC MOORE: This is Isaac Moore, and today is May 8th. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Bernice Mayer, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Bernice, do I have your permission to record this interview?

BERNICE MAYER:Yes.

IM:Thank you. So, I want to start by talking about your family and your family history. Can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

BM:Well, I know mainly my mother's. My father was born in America. My mother was born in a suburb of Kiev. She had a very rough transition. Her own mother became widowed at a very young age and was living with her in-laws, whose son was their 1:00only child. Her in-laws suggested that my grandmother go to America, where she had a lot of relatives, and possibly even remarry or make a life for herself and then send for the children. From what I understand, my great-grandparents were very close to the children. Their own son died and this was all they had. My grandmother did go to America, and when the --

IM:Can you tell me when she --

BM:I don't know when, but when her oldest daughter, my mother's sister, was sixteen, she sent for her, and she left. My mother was about twelve, living in this little shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community]. And her grandfather, I know, was a tanner, leather tanner, and she was taught -- she 2:00had a private tutor. She was taught to read and write Yiddish and Russian. And she read quite a bit of books, even her later years, in Russian and then Yiddish. The pogroms started around then. A terrible situation was -- what she said, that -- she would refer to the Cossacks or the Bolsheviks, but they came through and burned down the houses and decapitated her grandfather. Her grandmother came screaming, saw that, and had a heart attack and died. And my mother was left all alone. The town was practically demolished. She went to the 3:00rabbi of the town. He gave her some money and some things and said, "There's nothing here." He buried her grandfather and her grandmother, said that, "There's nothing for you here. Go to the next town, see the rabbi." He wrote a note. She went, I don't know how long she was with him, but it took her seven years, and she worked her way to Amsterdam. She was in prisons, because her papers, she had no papers. She had diphtheria. She told me she was running -- high fever. The women in the prison threw her in a horse trough with cold water in order to bring the fever down, and all her hair fell out. But she made it to Amsterdam, where she went to work for a Romanian couple. I don't know if they were Jewish or not, but they were Romanian, and they helped my mother greatly. 4:00They contacted her mother in the United States. Once they contacted her, her mother sent the passage fare with a -- agent, yeah. The agent came to the house and he said, Look, until he gets her papers and everything, it'll take a while, but he has a family who was leaving that week, who have a daughter her age who died. She should go with that family, and there'll be no problem. According to the way my mother tells me, she went to the gangplank with that family, said goodbye to the Romanian lady, went up on the ship, never saw that family again. She ate with, she said, a group of other women. Wasn't first class, but it wasn't steerage. They had a little dining room. She didn't remember the name of 5:00the people. When the ship docked -- they went first to Halifax, went through customs. She had no problem there, and she said, a matter of fact, many of the people got off the ship at Halifax 'cause they heard English speaking and they thought it was the United States, but it was Nova Scotia. Interestingly enough, my son wound up in Nova Scotia for eighteen years. Anyways, she came to America. She didn't go to Ellis Island. She went to Castle Gardens, I think it was called. Got off the ship, saw her mother and her sister. Went to them, nobody stopped her, and she went home with her mother. As a result, she was considered a stowaway. When she applied for citizenship papers, she couldn't prove -- no proof of her coming here, 'cause she didn't know what name she traveled under. 6:00My brother was in the Air Force and wanted to do some specialized work where both his parents had to be citizens. She was told she'd have to go to Canada and come back in and apply for citizenship. She was terrified of that. Somehow, my father knew a judge, an immigration judge. He knew my mother. She got her citizenship. She was the Yiddish-speaking member of my family. My father understood and spoke Yiddish. I hope so, 'cause he only knew my mother four months before they got married, and he said, "She said something to me and I said yes." (laughter) But they were married for many, many years, and I learned my Yiddish from her. She spoke only Yiddish to me, and that's her story.

IM:Great, thank you.

BM:Yeah.

IM:Do you have a story about your grandmother shlogn kapores [Jewish atonement 7:00ceremony involving a chicken, performed the day before Yom Kippur]?

BM:Oh, yes. Oh, God, I forgot it.

IM:Can we hear about this?

BM:(laughs) I was a little girl, and my grandmother lived with my aunt in Brooklyn. I used to -- since my mother worked, I spent vacation summers, holidays with them, with my cousins. And one day, I was playing by myself on the porch. My cousins were -- I don't know where. And I saw people walking into my grandmother's house, and I thought it was strange. Why are all these people coming in? So, I go, being a curious child, I went into the house, and in the kitchen, my grandmother, who was a sick woman and always in a robe with her hair down, is waving a chicken over her head. I thought she was a witch. I had no idea what it was. I got completely hysterical, ran upstairs to my aunt and hid under the bed. They had a tough job getting me out. They explained to me it's 8:00bobe [grandmother], it's nothing wrong. I wanted to go home. My mother had to come from the Bronx to Brooklyn and take me home. And that was the first I ever heard of shlogn kapores. (laughter) And that's --

IM:Great. So, if we can transition towards talking about your home and family, can you describe the home you grew up in?

BM:Yeah, it was a very Jewish home. Not religious in the sense -- I mean, they did go to shul eventually. Years later, my father became president of his shul. But in the growing up years, we lived in a section of the Bronx called Throggs Neck, that, at that time -- the Bund used to meet there. So, it wasn't particularly favorable to Jews. My father had a dry-cleaning/laundry store there, so he was a businessman. And my mother helped in the store, and she 9:00followed -- I mean, Friday night was Friday night, with all the ritual that goes with it. She came home early from work, the table was set. The kiddush cup was set out, challah -- some challies were there. It was a very Jewish background. We had to move from that area because I came home one day and I said my little friend -- whatever her name was, Kathy -- and I said to my father, "She said, 'You killed'" -- their God. "'You killed Christ.'" And he said, "How could I kill him? I didn't even know him." (laughs) But after a while, they felt they had to move to a different section of the Bronx. I didn't have much -- run-ins with anti-Semit-- that was my one and only that -- remembered that. I think it 10:00predicated their moving. I'm not sure. But they were always in business and got along well with the neighborhood. I went to Hebrew school, much against the rabbi's wishes, 'cause it was an Orthodox synagogue, and there were boys there and he didn't particularly want a girl. But I wanted to go, and my father was president of the shul. So, I got into (laughs) the Hebrew class, but the rabbi was not happy. It -- yeah.

IM:Who were the people in your home growing up?

BM:Who were the people? My mother, my father, my brother. I had a younger brother, seven years younger than I was. He has different memories of our upbringing, because there's so many years' difference that I remember harder 11:00times than he did. But I remember my mother always singing to us. She had a lovely -- not a trained voice, but which skipped a generation, went to my granddaughter and went right past me. (laughs) But it was a hardworking household, but I was a very happy child. I never lacked for anything. No matter how bad times were, there was food on the table, there were clothes. I remember once saying to my mother, "Are we poor?" And she said, "No, we just don't have money." And that was her attitude. "You'll have money someday." But poor is a way of thinking, in her mind. And all this, she told me in Yiddish, I realize now. She -- I don't think she thought she spoke as much Yiddish as she did, because we were once walking in the street and we met a neighbor. And the 12:00neighbor was speaking to her in Yiddish and said something to me in Yiddish, and I answered her, and she said to me, "Oh! How come you speak and understand Yiddish?" I said, "Mama talks to me" -- and my mother turned around, said, "I speak Yiddish?" (laughs) She thought -- no, no, no. She says, "I speak English all the time!" Yeah, "I don't speak Yiddish all the time." I guess it got mix-- but my father spoke -- American-born, and he spoke Yiddish. And it was a --

IM:So, your mother spoke Yiddish in the home --

BM:Yeah.

IM:-- sometimes? Yeah.

BM:Yeah, yeah.

IM:Do you remember any particular -- do you have any particular memories of her speaking Yiddish to you or your brother?

BM:It was every day, and I do remember her speaking to her sisters and her mother when they all got together, and I would hide under the table and listen. 13:00And my cousins were not interested. And when I would come out and tell them things, they'd say, Ah, you're making it up. It's not true. Some things about family, about extended family that I knew 'cause I heard, they wouldn't believe them. So, I was a curious child, and a little yenta [busybody]. So, being able to speak Yiddish served me well.

IM:(laughs) Was there a particular political atmosphere in your home?

BM:My mother read the "Forwards." My father used to say she's a socialist. I did not know what a socialist was. And once, I asked him, "Why do you call mom a socialist?" Said, "She reads the "Forwards." I said, "You read the 'Daily News', what does that make you?" (laughs) No, they loved Roosevelt. Oh, that was their god. They were very upset when a rabbi of theirs told them that Franklin 14:00Roosevelt was not a good friend of the Jews. I remember my father coming home very upset. "How could he say such a thing?" Well, the tide turns, and he wound up agreeing, but it took many years, yeah. But that was the only political discussions I heard.

IM:Did your mother -- she read the "Forverts" in Yiddish. Did she ever read to you?

BM:Oh, sure. The "Bintel Brief," that was -- she'd read me something and she'd say, "You see? If you're not a good Jewish girl, what happens?" Or, "A nice Jewish girl doesn't do such a thing," whatever the story was. Oh, yeah, she read to me a lot of the things from it, yeah. She read Jewish books to me. We went to the Yiddish theater a lot. I saw Maurice Schwartz in "King Lear," and I think 15:00"Hamlet." I don't know if it was him. But I remember -- see, when I got into high school and had to study the plays, I remembered knowing them in Yiddish, yeah.

IM:Can you describe going to the theater and how you felt?

BM:Sure. My mother belonged to a landsmanshaft [association of immigrants originally from the same region], where people --

IM:Landsleit [fellow countrymen] --

BM:-- from her town -- and they would meet periodically and they would sell theater tickets, and they'd all get together on Second Avenue theaters there. And probably once every couple months went. In between, if there was something that interested my parents, they would -- but they took me all over. I remember going up to the Borscht Belt when I was a little girl. My father'd take vacation, and we'd go up there. So, it was a mixture of bad times and when 16:00things got better. But it was always -- revolved around Judaism. Not as much today as my life revolves around Israel. Israel didn't exist yet, and it was Judaism. They did not talk about the Holocaust. I didn't know about it until years later, when it became public and in the papers. My mother never -- and it turned out, in my looking into it, she lost a lot of family in Babi Yar, 'cause that was the area. And that was all I knew about it, and --

IM:Okay, so getting back to sort of the Jewish cultural experience you had as a child, can you describe the plays that you saw on Second Avenue, and the actors?

BM:Well, there was an actress, I don't know if you know her, Jenny Goldstein. 17:00And all I remember is her crying, and every time we saw her, she'd lay on the floor and she'd cry, "Ikh vil shtarbn, ikh ken nisht leybn [I want to die, I can't live]," do you understand? Yeah, and -- to the point where when my mother'd say, "We're going," and I'd say, "What are we going to see?" And she'd mention Jenny Goldstein, I'd say, "Again? That lady doesn't want to live! (laughs) She cries." And I went and I enjoyed it. It's like people take their children to the theater now or to the movies or something. That was their recreational thing. And it was social, also, because they would meet friends there and go out to eat afterwards. That was interesting.

IM:Did you have a favorite play or favorite actor?

BM:Oh, there was a young man, I can't think of his name -- but it was very happy, 'cause I thought he was the handsomest man. Well, what -- I'm sorry, I 18:00can't think -- it'll come to me at three o'clock in the morning. I can't think of his name. But, yeah, it was -- oh, and there were musical people. There was the Barry Sisters. You know, so, I liked to listen to them. My mother always had the radio on. Oh, and there was a program, if you're interested in her radio listening, there was something called "Tsures bay laytn [People's problems]," yeah.

IM:What is that?

BM:Yeah, that was with -- people told their troubles, and somebody gave them advice. And it was lunchtime. When I would come home for lunch, I would listen to "Tsures bay laytn." And in school, in those days -- and it wouldn't be permitted now -- our teachers used to tell us, to the Italian children, to the Jewish children, "When you go home, tell your parents to speak English to you. 19:00Don't let them speak their native language. You have to learn English." And I'd come home and, of course, my mother's speaking Yiddish to me. I wouldn't dare say to her, "Don't speak to me the" -- when she put the radio on and it was Yiddish, but WEVD was all Yiddish. I'd say, "Mom, you want to listen to another station?" She'd say, "Far vos [Why]?" You know, why, what kind of thing -- so, I don't know how -- I had friends who would tell their mothers not to -- The teacher said you have to speak English. Now, they couldn't get away with that.

IM:Do you have any particular or favorite stories from listening to the radio?

BM:Let me see. Well, in this "Tsures bay laytn," it was like the "Bintel Brief" on radio. People would call in with their troubles. The narrator would listen, 20:00would make a decision. I loved listening to those programs. I felt, first of all, That's adult things, I really shouldn't be listening to it. But it wasn't anything terrible. No, but I -- and I enjoyed that, yeah. That's all I remember of the Yiddish programs.

IM:How important were these aspects of Jewish culture -- the theater, the radio -- to you as a child?

BM:Oh, I think they had a big impact on me. Where I live now, it's a retirement community. I've always been in the Yiddish group, because I miss hearing the Yiddish word spoken. I've been a Brandeis member and have run, moderated groups 21:00for almost ten years. And I think -- we've been to Israel numerous times. I feel all that comes from my background. My children were all bar mitzvahed, ba-- mitzvahed, you know.

IM:Did you read as a young girl?

BM:Oh, lots, yeah. Lots.

IM:What did you read?

BM:Oh, when I was a little girl, I remember -- I've never seen again -- there was a series of books, "Heidi" books. "Heidi," yeah, the -- and then, there was "Maida's Little Shop," and as I got older, I still read -- okay, so I have a book with me, "Vini-der-pu," it's -- translation of "Winnie the Pooh" in Yiddish. I'm sure you have it in the -- here. I'm reading right now -- and reading Toni Morrison's "God Help the Child," which is not Jewish reading, but 22:00it is for -- I read all the time.

IM:Can you briefly tell me about your education when you were young?

BM:Well, I mean, I went through public school. We changed schools a few times, 'cause my father moved his businesses. Always within the Bronx area, but always out of my school district. (laughs) So, I changed school a few times. Was a fairly good student. My last year in high school, I got rheumatic fever. So, I was home-tutored and couldn't go to my graduation, but graduated. I didn't go to college till my children, or my youngest, was in middle school. And I got my 23:00degrees in social work, and I was a social worker. And now, I'm retired.

IM:(laughs) Great. You also mentioned you were involved in Betar as a teenager. Can you describe what that is?

BM:I became involved in Betar because when I was about fourteen, there was a dance, a social being held at our synagogue. My mother heard about it, "Go. Nice Jewish kids, go." One of the nice Jewish kids was a boy named Marty Kahane, who became Meir Kahane later. Betar was a -- Israeli-oriented -- well, not so much a -- it was founded by Jabotinsky, who believed Jews should fight for what they 24:00want. I was more interested in the social aspect of it at that time. In later years -- want me to go into later years of that?

IM:Sure, yeah.

BM:Okay. (laughs)

IM:Briefly.

BM:After I was married and an adult, I met, again, Marty Kahane, who then became Meir Kahane from the JDL. He spoke at our synagogue. He came over to -- he sort of remembered me. We got to talking, he -- my husband became very interested in the work that he was doing. He came that night to -- it was just before Passover. Easter and Passover were coinciding, and he asked for volunteers to 25:00come and guard some synagogues in a section of New York where there was a lot of anti-Semitism. My husband and my sons volunteered. They -- very impressed by Rabbi Kahane. If you heard him speak, he can charm anyone. We kept up a friendship with him. We've been arrested in his protests. We worked very much to get the Jews out of Russia. That was our main theory. And we sat in protest, we've been arrested because I took a pocketbook and hit a cop over the head because he took a baton and was hitting a boy. The police came out at that time with tapes over their numbers and names so you couldn't report 'em, and --

IM:Was there an official name of the organization?

BM:Yeah, JDL, Jewish Defense League.

IM:Jewish Defense --

BM:Yeah, and we were at the Russian embassy protesting to get Jews out of -- Israel, and Rabbi Kahane led that and worked very hard. (laughs) We were all taken into the station. They let us go, 'cause it was a group thing. We kept friends with Rabbi Kahane until he changed focus and became very militaristic, just -- there were things that he said -- we contributed to him, but he was killed in Israel, you know that. And he kept saying to us, "When are you going to settle in Israel? When are you going to settle in Israel?" And we said, We can't now. It was a good friendship until he went off the deep -- what we felt, 27:00going off the deep end. And unfortunately, he, his son, his wife, grandchild were all killed, and we took that very hard.

IM:What other activities did you participate in while in the JDL?

BM:(laughs) Well, I was very active in my synagogue. I was Sisterhood president. I was head of the education committee. We belonged to B'nai Brith, Hadassah. You name it, one of us (laughs), we belonged to that and attended the functions of that, and the money-raising and whatever.

IM:How did you feel about participating with Rabbi Kahane?

BM:Very mixed feelings. Felt the cause was good. The methods -- he became too 28:00much of a -- I don't know what word to use. As I said, I had very mixed feelings. He was so different than the person who started all of this. He had a great love for the Jewish people, there's no question. But his methods of helping them, I could not go along with. So, just had very mixed feelings. Like a lot of my politics, I have very mixed feelings. (laughs)

IM:How, if at all, did your Jewish identity come into your involvement with him and the organization?

BM:I can't separate my involvement from -- of course I became involved with him because of my Jewishness. And, as I said, he was so appealing at that time. He 29:00was so rational. That's the word I'm looking for. After a while, I felt he became irrational in his thinking of what he wanted to do. He was not going to take over Israel. It just wasn't going to be -- he was not going to become a general, leading an armed troop. It just was difficult helping him.

IM:How, if at all, did your experience make you think about your own Jewishness?

BM:I had always wanted to settle in Israel. We have many friends and relatives there. We've visited many, many times. There were always reasons -- when we were ready to go, when the children were of the right age to go, my mother-in-law who lived with us wouldn't go, and there was no place -- well, my husband couldn't 30:00leave her. Later on, you become so involved in your own life at the time that it's hard to think of giving it up. Then, I became hearing disabled, and now I'm better off being near my children. I wouldn't leave them, and my grandchildren living in New Jersey is far enough. (laughs)

IM:So, we've talked a lot about sort of a lot of the early parts of your life.

BM:I talked a lot. (laughter)

IM:Yes. So, can you -- after you left your parents' home, can you just give me a snapshot of your studies, your life, your children? Just a brief overview?

BM:I married a boy from the neighborhood. I knew him since I was eight and a half. He came from Germany with his family in 1938. So, they got out just in 31:00time. My mother and his mother were very good friends, 'cause his parents had the bakery on the same block as my parents had a business. I married him, we raised the children. We both had strong feelings towards Judaism. I kept a kosher home. He didn't come from a kosher home, but he respected my wishes. He said if it's important to me, that shall be. We went to shul every Saturday. My children went to Hebrew school. When we moved to New Jersey, we got involved in the temple there. I'm on the board of trustees; he was also -- I do a lot of work for them. I think I'm a typical Jewish lady. (laughs) And then, when he 32:00passed away, I continued in the temple. And we have a tight Jewish community there that is now disappearing by attrition, by dying, by people moving to their children -- to be near their children. And that saddens me, 'cause I saw one temple close up that I belonged to, and I think this one, I hope, I outlive it. And -- no, it outlives me. (laughs) Yes.

IM:Or vice-versa.

BM:Yeah, either way. (laughs)

IM:Either way.

BM:Yeah. (laughter) And that's it. I, in school, always belonged to a Yiddish club, Jewish club. Even in college, did that, too. And in college, I -- since I went back at a later date, I was a volunteer for a class for new citizens. It 33:00wasn't English as a second language, but it was helping them fill out applications, licenses, helping them with everyday work. And I enjoyed that, and that was nice for me.

IM:Yeah, great. Can you tell me more about your involvement with Yiddish clubs in college?

BM:In college, we had -- not a bad Yiddish club. I was older than most of the students there, but I got along well with them. And very few of them really spoke Yiddish, but their grandmas did. So, I guess I was the representative. I wasn't a grandma then, but they liked to hear me use Yiddish expressions, and they picked up a lot of Yiddish expressions. The faculty advisor had asked me to 34:00please stay with the group. I was ready to leave. "Please stay," because they had very few Yiddish-speaking students there. And he was a Jewish man who wanted to promote Yiddish. So, I stayed and I enjoyed it as much as I could. There was no reading or writing of Yiddish. It was speaking mainly, and went okay.

IM:And this was at Monroe?

BM:That was Monroe High School.

IM:Monroe High School.

BM:And then, I went to City College and was there, but that was years later, yeah.

IM:So, I'm going to ask a sort of reflective question: how do you see your connection to Yiddish and Yiddishkayt in terms of your broader sense of identity?

BM:I can't separate myself from Yiddishkayt. I mean, I -- in this world we're living today, I've had to be a lot more tolerant where my grandchildren, my children -- concerned. But there's nothing that could take the Yiddishness out of me. It's a world where there's a lot of intermarriage. It's a world where there's the younger people -- in my generation, I didn't have any friends who married out of the religion or who married somebody where there was intermarriage. My children's age, among their friends, maybe one or two. But when -- my grandchildren's age, it is almost -- you don't even talk about it. That's the way it was. It upsets me when I go to an intermarriage. That is not a 36:00Jewish marriage at all, but they break the glass, and that makes it a Jewish wedding. And, all right, I'm told I'm old-fashioned. I accept it. And that's all.

IM:How has your relationship to Yiddish changed throughout your lifetime?

BM:It hasn't. I don't believe it has. I can no more separate myself from thinking about my Jewishness than I can about the fact that my eyes are brown, or -- it's a part of me. My son-in-law jokes with me that when he'll tell me about someone, I'll say, "Is he Jewish?" And I probably do. It sets that person in a certain way of thinking for me, which is probably not right and I should get out of that habit. But that's also me, yeah.

IM:Has there been a point in your life where Yiddish was more important than maybe another time?

BM:No, I think raising the children, it was very important -- me to keep a kosher home. And for years, my children thought that forks grew out of plants in my house, because if they used the wrong fork for the meat, for the dairy, I stuck it in the plant. I was told you put it in soil and that makes it all right, so -- but I wanted them to know that when they picked up a utensil, they should know that it's the right one for that meal. I felt it was part of their training. I don't think I ever pushed it in the sense of, You're Jewish, you're 38:00Jewish, you're Jewish. But I hope, by example, they knew how important it was to me. When my husband died, we had the full ritual of it, and my children were wonderful. They sat shiva [seven-day mourning period] with me for seven days, which now I understand a lot do for three days. They traveled to New Jersey and stayed with me, which I appreciated. So, as I said, all the rituals in my life have involved Judaism. I can't change that. I don't want to change that.

IM:Have there been any particular values or traditions that you've wanted your grandchildren to learn?

BM:Yes. I think that -- of being a mensch. I think that's the highest compliment, of being kind, to being considerate to people. I don't know if any 39:00of us are born with innate meanness, but I don't want to see it. I don't want to be part of it. I don't want that to be part of it. So far, I haven't seen it. They may be very good at keeping it from me, but I -- just the kindness. And I think that Judaism -- I've told my class -- I do a class in human relations for Brandeis. And I said, I've been taught -- I've always taken adult education, Jewish -- and I've been taught that the two worst sins a Jew can do is murder and spoiling somebody's reputation, because you can't get forgiveness for that. If you've murdered someone, they can't forgive you, and if you spoiled someone's reputation, you've ruined them. And I think that's also an act of meanness. And 40:00I hope I've instilled kindness. So far, I see kindness in my children. So, I'm happy about that.

IM:So, you mentioned you didn't study Yiddish as a girl. But when you were at Brandeis, you --

BM:Yeah, yeah, no, I did -- the rabbi did let me go to the kheyder [traditional religious school] classes. He didn't pay much attention to me, so I didn't get too much out of it, but I can make out the letters in Hebrew, yeah. (laughter) But I still go every Shabbos to shul, and I read the English because I get more of the feel for it. I understand what I'm reading. But if I don't go, I feel like I'm missing something. Not always, but -- (laughs)

IM:Is that a strong feeling?

BM:Very strong feeling.

IM:Yeah. So, tell me more about the Brandeis Jewish Women's League.

BM:Oh, well, it has also changed in attitude through the years with younger people coming in. But they work very hard for community service, for Israel, for -- well, it's basically a fundraiser for Brandeis University. And that, to a degree, bothered me, because I felt there were community things -- when I first came in, it was strictly everything went to Brandeis University. But then, the chapters, our chapters, took the position that if they want to help their community, they will. And I was very active. I was vice president of study groups. I was a moderator. I'm still a moderator. And I think it's a very 42:00worthwhile organization. Unfortunately, the Jewish membership has fallen off. We have some gentile women, and who are on the board, who are very active. So, as I said, that's the way it goes.

IM:And you study Yiddish with the Jewish Women's League?

BM:No, no, it --

IM:Yeah.

BM:-- no, with -- as I said, in our Yiddish group, we speak Yiddish.

IM:Speak Yiddish, yeah.

BM:Yeah. And unfortunately, that -- this year, they're not having it because they didn't have enough people sign up for it, so --

IM:How did you feel when you first joined the speaking group?

BM:Oh, I loved it, yeah.

IM:Can you sort of describe what you do?

BM:Yeah, the moderator will give us a topic for that meeting: how you met your husband, how your parents did something. And you're supposed to come in and tell 43:00them the story in Yiddish. Well, sometimes your tongue gets twisted and the words don't always come out, and sometimes, like my mother, I speak part English, part Yiddish. But it's enjoyable, and I'm sorry they don't have it this year. Maybe next year, I can get --

IM:What was your favorite topic to discuss in Yiddish?

BM:I think -- well, I guess how I met my husband, which was easy because we grew up in the same neighborhood. So, I had easy words for that. (laughter) That was my favorite one. Was able to tell it easily.

IM:Great. To what extent do you think language plays a role in transmission between generations?

BM:I think it plays a -- important role, but I also think the rituals, the 44:00customs that tie people -- I can get together with a group of Jewish women my age and discuss certain superstitions or a red bendl [ribbon], tying on -- yeah.

IM:Can you tell me about that?

BM:Oh, sure. When you're having -- I remember when I had -- my baby was born, the first thing my mother did was go to the crib and tie a little red ribbon on it. And she said to me, "For good luck." My grandmother came and she put it on the carriage. (laughs) And whether they believed in that -- I can speak to women my age with a Jewish background, and they won't know much about sermons or shul or anything, but I'll say, "Oh, did you put a red bendl on it?" Oh, of course! So, I think those kind of things are just as important. Of course, language is 45:00important, it's -- but it isn't the means of communication to us anymore. And it's not a necessity, where it had been in my mother's generation. Yeah, okay?

IM:Great. Have your children or grandchildren expressed any interest in Yiddish?

BM:When they were little. My youngest son, who went through Yeshiva University, because there were so many Yiddish-speaking children there, because they're from Orthodox homes or something, he picked up some Yiddish. And of the three, he probably knows the most. My grandchildren, I tried. They know a couple words. My aide, who was from Ghana and lives with me, knows more Yiddish than all of them put together. (laughter) She comes with me to shul every Shabbos, so she knows 46:00all the songs and the prayers.

IM:Wow.

BM:So, it's -- but it's not a means of communication. It's just a means of expression. I'll say something, she'll know what I mean, yeah.

IM:Do you think that ritual -- because you mentioned language plays a role and then it changes over time, do you think ritual --

BM:You --

IM:-- having a sense of that is important?

BM:Well, it's a commonality. I think that's what the ritual, the superstitions, the cultures -- it's that commonality that more keep people together -- not more than language, but the language, as I said, is dying out. Even in Israel, you find people speak Yiddish, but not very many. But still, even with my Israeli 47:00relatives, if they're from my generation, I talk about certain rituals. Even though they came from Germany or Russia or something, they know those -- whatever they are. The holidays, the lighting of the candles. Every Jewish woman, no matter where she lives, knows about it. Whether she does it or not, she does know about it. Trying to think of what else. I don't know. (laughs) But I'll think of something.

IM:So, I think I've asked this before, but I'll ask -- so, what does Yiddish --

BM:Yiddish --

IM:-- mean to you today (unclear)?

BM:It is, I think, so much a part of me that I wish it were a stronger part of my children's and grandchildren's lives. It's not, and no one can help that. It's not that we didn't try. It's the way the world is going now. People are 48:00more integrating into different cultures, but nothing will take it away from me. I cannot separate it from myself. I can't give separate wording to Yiddishness in me. It's just a part of me, and --

IM:Do you have any stories or topics that you want to talk about in the interview?

BM:I think I talked plenty. (laughs)

IM:You did talk plenty. (laughs) Do you have any favorite Yiddish words or songs?

BM:Oh, you don't want to know them. (laughs)

IM:Oh, yes, I do, I'm very curious. Are you sure? I'm sure you have something, any --

BM:My mother used to sing all the time. I don't know the titles of them, but she used to sing about -- in Yiddish, when Jake was a little boy, he used to steal 49:00pennies from his father's pocket. And the father found out and he used to beat him. Anyway, it's a whole big thing, and he winds up in prison. That was another story. My mother -- "See what happens to bad children?" And then, there was one about a dishwasher in a restaurant who washed for pennies so he could buy food for his family. Everything was stories, and I listened to them. I don't know the names of the songs. But they are songs.

IM:Any favorite Yiddish words that mean --

BM:You don't want to --

IM:-- anything particular for you?

BM:Oh, I don't know. (laughs) I will see somebody and I'll say to Amelia, "What does that woman look like?" And she'll say, "Oh, like you say, a farbisene punim." (laughs) You know? And do you know what this --

IM:It's the --

BM:A bitter face.

IM:A bitter -- from the lips.

BM:Yeah, yeah. (laughter) Farbisn.

IM:Farbisene punim.

BM:Yeah.

IM:Yeah.

BM:Farbisene punim, different -- I know them all. I can't -- you know, a lebn af dayn kepele [blessings on your little head], so, you know, the old ones. Zol vaksn vi a tsibl mit di kop in der erd un di fis aroyf [May you grow like an onion with your head in the earth and your feet up], those are all --

IM:Yeah.

BM:-- yeah.

IM:Very funny. So, what advice do you have for future generations?

BM:Yeah, don't listen to me. (laughter) No, just be good and kind to each other. The world right now is such a frightening place that I want to take all the young people of the world and hug them to me and keep them safe. Aside from that, I don't know. I can't give advice.

IM:To someone who is interested in Yiddish, what would you say to --

BM:Someone who -- excuse me?

IM:Someone who is interested in Yiddish, what would you say to them?

BM:Oh, take every course you can find. Call the Yiddish Book Center and see if they can advise you (laughs) where to take classes. Try to open yourself up to Yiddish as much as possible. It's a phenomenal language. I think it's a beautiful language. And when people say it's not a real language, I get very angry, yeah. I think it's a language, yeah.

IM:What do you think makes Yiddish a living language?

BM:It's expressive. It is so expressive. There are words that -- and expressions you can't even translate. It is lyrical, it is -- if you read your Yiddish poetry -- I can't think of one. You're going to ask me to name a poem and I 52:00can't right now. But it's something worth studying. It should not be a lost language. The work you're doing here is keeping it alive. (clears throat) Excuse me. Yeah, I think it's beautiful.

IM:Yeah.

BM:I think I talked enough.

IM:Okay. (laughter) Well, I think we've covered all --

BM:Everything, yes. I'm sorry if I've talked too much.

IM:No, no, no, it's fine.

BM:Yeah, yeah.

IM:It's perfect. We could talk all night.

BM:Yeah.

IM:Well, I want to say a sheynem dank [thank you very much] for coming and speaking with me.

BM:Thank you, yeah, and a sheynem dank to you for giving this opportunity.

[END OF INTERVIEW]