KATARZYNA LESZCZYNSKA ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA: This is Agnieszka Ilwicka, and today is 10 September, 2014. I'm at the University of Wrocław, the Jewish studies department in Poland with Katarzyna Leszczynska. And we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Katarzyna Leszczynska, do I have your permission to record this interview?

KATARZYNA LESZCZYNSKA: Yes.

AI:Thank you. Could you describe your -- no, could you tell me briefly about your family background?"

KL:Um-hmm. I was born in Oświęcim. The name that is well known in the whole world is Auschwitz. It is a small town in the south of Poland, and I grew up in 1:00another town, about twenty kilometers away from Oświęcim. I was born in a family which lived in the small town, but my parents both studied in Kraków before moving to this town. I have a brother an --, yeah. (laughs)

AI:Did you grow up with your grandparents?

KL:No, no. They -- my grandparents lived in Oświęcim. That's also where my mom grew up, and the other grandparents lived also in a small town not far from Oświęcim.

AI:Did they live there for generations or one --KL:No, actually they moved there -- so, my grandparents, all of them, moved to this area from different parts of 2:00Poland. The parents of my mother were born in the south of Poland, in the mountains, and the parents of my father were both born in the east of Poland: my grandma, close to Rzeszów, and my grandfather, close to L'viv. So, at that time, it was Poland. Today it is Ukraine.

AI:How long is your family memory about who you are and where are you from?

KL:This is an interesting question. It's not very far. So, I think it's also something that most Polish families share, and it is really this unawareness of and lack of, really -- maybe not interest, but, yeah, lack of knowledge about the roots of families. It's something that I believe was destroyed by the 3:00communism, and people were not really interested in their origin and genealogy or anything like this. So, I personally know about my great-grandparents and I know about some of my great-great-grandparents, but not much. And, yeah, we don't have many documents or anything like this. So, today, I'm more interested in these issues, so I'm trying to find out, but it's not easy. Many people -- my grandparents really don't talk about it very openly, and we only have little stories.

AI:Do you have any famous or not famous family stories?

KL:Yeah, there are many stories in my family. And interestingly, I think many of them are about the Second World War, because it's the time when my grandparents were born or this is the time of their childhood. And I think it is the 4:00experience that mostly shaped them as children and as young people, experiencing this tragedy and this situation that changed the way they lived before the war. And it was very tragic, so it stayed in their memory. So, most of the stories I know are from the Second World War. And these are stories about my great grandpa, who was a partisan and then a soldier in the Polish army. But not the official Polish Army, but the one that was closer to the Russian communist army. So, this is something that is not often talked about, but yeah, he wasn't at home throughout the war. He was hiding in forests, and this was the great 5:00grandfather who lived close to L'viv. And his children, so my grandpa, had to hide because of the Ukrainian-Polish conflicts at that time. And they were threatened, and each night they had to hide in the forest, so the grandma and the children. So, another grandma just talks a lot about the hunger, about many other things. So, these are the stories that I mostly heard. And other than that, there aren't many stories that my family talks about. So, (laughs) I would say the Second World War is something that really -- whenever we talk about the past, this is the topic that always comes up.

AI:Right, and do you think that the fact that the Second World War came out as your childhood stories, as well, during your growing up, shaped you as a person?

KL:It's hard to tell. I think probably yes, because I think it is something that most Polish people also can talk about, and it's this feeling of being a victim in some way. It's not only the Second World War: also, the time before the Second World War, the partitions, this is something that every Polish child learns at school. It's the fact that Poland did not exist on the maps of Europe for one hundred and twenty years, twenty-one, I think, which is a long time. And, of course, it was a time in which Polish children were forced to learn Russian or Germany, and we always learn about things that happened to us and about the persecutions of Polish people and the Polish nation. Then, all the 7:00uprisings: the one in Warsaw during the Second World War, but also the ones during the time of partitions. Plus, the family histories, it all creates this notion of really being a victim in some way and being just an object of history, like someone being just an object of -- just living on the waves of history and not really being able to shape it and to do something against it. But on the other hand, my parents, I think the fact that they grew up in communism, but then they started -- they both are Evangelical Christians, but they were born Catholic. And the change happened during their studies in Kraków. They got to know some evangelical American Christian groups, and both of them changed their 8:00confession. So, they remained Christians, but they left the Catholic Church and they moved to the Evangelical Church, and it also opened up their perspective to the West. And from that time on, I could say my family really became, maybe not obsessed, but really, really, they really got into English, learning the English language. My mom, even though she studied primary school education, she became an English teacher. And we had many contacts with Americans, with English people who came to Poland, who stayed at our place. And in some way, I know that my parents tried to break this feeling of being inactive and not being able to shape their future. And they really encouraged us to learn a lot and to get to know the world. And also, I always had a feeling they pushed us to also see the Western Europe, like the parts of Europe that they could not see because of the 9:00closed borders and the Iron Curtain. So, when I turned nineteen and when I stood before the decision of where to study and what to study, there was a possibility of going to London and to study there. And most Polish parents would probably have a lot against it, but my parents were very much in favor of this idea and really supported me in this decision.

AI:All right. We will come back to your studies, but I would like stay for one more moment in the place where you grew up. Could you please describe your neighborhood? Because I would like to ask you about, I think, having this open-minded home, this Western-focused -- on the beginning of '90s in still 10:00great Poland. How did you feel, how your neighborhood look like, who are your friends?

KL:So, we were quite an unusual family, I would say, because of the Evangelical Church that we were a part of. Most of my friends were Catholic, so I was always the only person not attending religion classes at school, which were obligatory. And most of my friends and most of my classmates were -- all of them, actually, were Catholic. So, we were, in a way, different. But also, we never experienced any problems because of it. So, children were quite interested in our house. So, every time we celebrated birthdays, we never sang the Polish song, birthday song "Sto lat [Polish: One hundred years]," but my mom always started singing, "Happy Birthday," which was also quite interesting for the children who were invited to 11:00these celebrations. So, that's -- yeah, and the whole situation, it was a really nice town. And, in a way, the whole awareness of the place -- so, every time I told someone from abroad where I come from, the first association was Auschwitz or Oświęcim. But for us, it never was the association. It's something that like growing up on the volcano means that you really don't -- stop noticing where you grow up, and you don't really pay attention to it, and it was also my case. So, I knew that something happened there and I knew that it was really bad. As a child, I always -- I remember that these Americans, many of them were also of Jewish background. And those who came to our house, I remember these conversations. So, my parents sometimes talked about something tragic or terrible, or these Americans or American Jews were saying that they would never 12:00like to come back, or, how can we live here? And I remember listening to these conversations and not really knowing what they are talking about and why is it so bad here. So, until a certain point, I wasn't really aware of what happened not far from the place where I grew up. At the same time, my family -- because also of this Evangelical Church, my family was always interested in Jewish culture, and also in Israel. And we always had a menorah in our house, so in some way, these things were very familiar to me and very close to my heart from the very -- childhood.

AI:What was your contact, if any, with Jewish people and culture growing up?

KL:Yeah, so, yeah, it's definitely something that started when my parents left the Catholic Church. One of their friends, very good friends, was active in 13:00helping Holocaust survivors in the Ukraine. He organized big -- he just gathered money and went there to help them financially, but also to set up some places where they could get food. These were very, very poor people, old Holocaust survivors in the Ukraine. And so, this was the first contact of my parents with the Jewish culture. And then, later on, when they were married, my mom was an English teacher and she started having more and more contact with groups coming to Oświęcim, to Auschwitz, Israeli tour guides bringing classes of students. 14:00It was all connected to these contacts from studies, so -- to this man from Poland who went to the Ukraine. And these contacts then were created, and my mom could also bring her classes. So, the students that she taught English could meet Jewish students and Israeli students in Auschwitz, in the camp, so this was -- I knew that my mom takes part in such meetings, but I never took part in these meetings. My parents -- I think my first time to visit the camp was when I was about twelve or maybe even later. So, they really didn't want me to do it too early. Yeah, so, these visits, I think -- and then, my father also got involved in helping these Holocaust survivors in the Ukraine. He went a few times there to soup kitchens to help, to meet old Holocaust survivors, sometimes 15:00really very amazing people: teachers, musicians who lived in terrible conditions. Little houses or even little rooms. They didn't have enough food, and this is what the whole organization was doing, so -- and there was a kind of a -- I don't know why, but -- I know why. I think it was just the fact that, as Evangelical Christians, as Christians in general, we were just aware of the fact that the whole thing, faith, that our faith really has roots in Judaism and that we cannot really cut these roots and turn away from the fact that, actually, the Jews were the first ones in the book that we really read and love -- is the book that comes from them. So, that's why there was really this kind of love and association with the Jewish people in my house, and this is how it was lived out by meetings and by talking about it quite a lot. (laughs)

AI:And what was your involvement in this? Did you make anything special for Holocaust survivors in Ukraine?

KL:No, no, I didn't. So, this is what I was talking about. So, until, yeah, I knew that my parents are doing it. I knew it's good to do it, and I saw these symbols in our house, the menorah that I told you about.

AI:Yeah.

KL:But I didn't really know why they are doing it, and this wasn't personal. So, it was something that my family did. I associated with it, I knew it's good, but it wasn't coming from me. And I think the whole thing changed on my twelfth birthday. And my mom got a present for me, and it was a book about Anne Frank in English. So, a person that is really well known to the whole Jewish world, but not in Poland. So, for us, for both parents, for me, it was a person that we never heard about. And I was twelve years old, and this little book, it was a 17:00book in English, so my mom wanted me to keep learning English. And it was a little booklet with difficult words translated in this booklet. And it was very interesting, because the book started by description of Anne Frank getting twelve and becoming, yeah, turning twelve and getting a diary. And it was also my present, so I got this book about Anne Frank and a diary. So, I remember my mom said it's very interesting and I should really read this book. So, I started reading it, and I think it was the first encounter with the Holocaust for me, personally. So, I read her diary, I could really understand what she's going through, 'cause I was also twelve. But then, I realized that all of a sudden, her whole life changed and she had to leave the whole life behind and she had to 18:00die, and even not far from my house. So, suddenly, the whole topic of Holocaust became very close to me. And from that point on -- we already had plenty of books about Holocaust in our house. There's a whole shelf with books only about the Holocaust and the Jewish people, which my parents were always reading. But at that time, I started reading these books. And I don't know why, but I really started experiencing it as if it was my own story, and I started crying. And it was a time when -- I think it took a while, but I remember being fourteen. There was a time when I only read these books and cried and cried and cried. And suddenly, I also realized that all of these people that died not far from my house were actually people who also lived in my country before the war. So, I knew about it, but it never was so tangible to me. And suddenly, I started 19:00realizing that, actually, every city, every town in Poland has a Jewish cemetery. And I realized that I would like to get to know these people more, and in a deeper way, and I would like to find out who these people were and how they lived before the war. And I started reading books written by Isaac Bashevis Singer, and I found them so exciting, just to see the life that happened -- that was present and the Jewish life that was really everywhere in Poland before the war. So, I think this was a time when it became personal, and I did something. I did something very -- now, when I think about it, it was a little bit fanatic and strange, but I remember I was so moved and I read so many books and poems and many things, and I decided I want my school to find out about it. And also, being a daughter of a teacher, it wasn't difficult, really, to make my projects 20:00work. And I offered a lesson, I created a lesson with pieces of poetry and with memories, mainly memories, from the Holocaust or just recent after the Holocaust. Really very, very moving, sometimes very tragic. Yeah, very shocking descriptions. But I wanted it to be shocking. I wanted my classmates and my school to find out about it. And then, I went to -- (laughs) and it was a lesson. I always -- I lit candles, (laughs) and I wanted all the -- yeah, I just wanted to create an atmosphere in which people can really focus on it, and it was a little bit strange. And then, I brought these pieces of poetry to many classes. I think I did it with eight or nine different classes, and the teachers allowed me, so it was amazing. And we read these pieces, we talked about the 21:00Holocaust. So, this was quite strange. I think I was only fifteen or sixteen myself and a student myself, but I could do it. Yeah, my mom also organized festivals of different cultures. So, I encouraged my class to -- and each class had to represent some culture, and I encouraged my class to do something about the Jewish culture. And then, we had a Jewish dance. Just very typical, stereotypical things, but I think it was very groundbreaking for this school, because it was never a topic otherwise.

AI:Wow. (laughter) Fascinating! Did you later follow up the school project?

KL:Uh-huh.

AI:How is that -- started to work in your own life? Because I think that was just the beginning of your path.

KL:I think so, yeah. So, yeah, all of this started when I finished junior high school, in my town. And then, I moved to high school, to another town, a bigger 22:00town and very nice town in the south -- city, I think -- in the south of Poland, Bielsko-Biała. And it's also a very interesting city, really. Before the war, it was a melting pot of different cultures. There were many Germans living there and many Jews, many Poles. And I also started learning German. I wanted to learn another foreign language. I knew English quite well at that time, and I knew that I want to learn another foreign language. And the question was which one. And, to be honest, my family, because of the whole war stories and because of the interest in the Holocaust and also the association with the Jewish people, there was very strong anti-German sentiment in my family. And we never liked Germans, and there were a lot of jokes about Germans in my family. And I wasn't interested in learning German, but I knew it might be a practical language to 23:00know. And I thought, okay, I have to start thinking about my future, okay? It's a neighboring country, a rich country, so maybe it's good to learn this language. And I started learning German. I also went to see a German minority in this city: old people, old German people who stayed in Bielsko-Biała, which was very, very interesting for me. But at that time, it was really a very marginal topic for me. And my interest in Jewish culture continued, and I kept reading books, not only about the Holocaust. I think the faith -- the time when I really cried was only at that time and then never happened again. But it really changed my life. I started to read more about the time before the war, and I really wanted to know who these people were. And I started dreaming about learning Yiddish. And I thought, Wow, it would be amazing to be able to read these books 24:00written by Isaac Bashevis Singer. (phone rings) [BREAK IN RECORDING) I read many of his novels, and I thought it would be amazing to be able to read them in original. And I thought, Wow, this is only a dream, but I'm not sure if it can ever happen. I don't even know the Hebrew letters. And then, I read somewhere that some of his works are still not translated. So, I thought, Hmm, maybe I can translate them one day. But this was just a thought. These were three years in this high school and I knew, Okay, now I'm coming closer and closer to the decision of what I want to study and where. At that time, I already knew I want to study languages. I want to learn about other cultures, not only the English culture, but I would like to learn more languages and also improve my English. And I knew, Okay, maybe it's a good idea to continue learning German. I still 25:00didn't really like it, but I thought it's a practical language to know. And the other one, I thought, Hm, why not Hebrew? The only problem was that I knew that it's not a practical thing to study. I knew that there might be problems with finding employment afterwards. And other ideas appeared: Norwegian. My uncle lived in Norway at the time. Or Russian. But something really -- my interest was so big at that time, and I knew that I really want to take this risk and choose Hebrew. And that's when I went to London, to University College London, to talk to the teachers there. And it was my interview, and the interview was very -- I decided to study German and Hebrew at UCL, University College London, in London. 26:00And I went there to my interview with Dr. Helen Beer from University College London and some representative of the German department. So, it was a very interesting interview. And, yeah, and I got accepted, and this is also how (laughs) these interests became also -- got more place in my life.

AI:But later, in London, you studied more than German and Hebrew, and how is that happen?

KL:More, you mean --

AI:Because you studied Yiddish, as well.

KL:Yes, so I started by learning Hebrew from scratch. So, I thought, Hmm, it would be amazing to be able to talk to someone after I finish my studies. But I never thought it would be possible to really finish almost the whole ulpan and to be able to really talk without any problems in Hebrew. So, I'm so thankful to 27:00my teachers, both in London and in Israel, because I also went to Jerusalem to do an ulpan there. They were amazing teachers, and thanks to them and also, I worked quite hard, I'm now able to speak Hebrew fluently. And then, in my second year of studies, I knew, Okay, I already know the Hebrew letters. So, maybe I can try learning Yiddish. And that's when I started. And I learned with Dr. Lily Kahn, also at UCL. And I think, also, thanks to her and her amazing skills as a teacher, as a Yiddish teacher, I also, after graduating from UCL, I could also easily speak and understand this language.

AI:And how about your interest in Yiddish literature, history? How did you 28:00develop it during these London years?

KL:I think it was a natural choice, 'cause there were many other choices one could choose. There were plenty of different courses, and one could choose Ladino literature or -- and I knew, Okay, this also interesting, but it is not something that is close to my -- to the place where I grew up. And this is also why I wanted to study Hebrew and Jewish studies, to get to know the people and the nation, yeah, that lived in Poland before the war. So, I knew, Okay, Ladino culture, it is interesting, but maybe later. Also, Israel -- there were many courses about Israel and the conflict, and it wasn't, also, something that very much interested me. So, this was a natural choice, and also one of the dreams that I had before studying. So, this was a way of making it come true.

AI:Could you please tell me little about this London life experience? You spend 29:00there many years, and you went as a just-becoming-adult girl to London -- how this experience change you as a person?

KL:Yeah, it was definitely something that changed me. It definitely expanded, broadened my horizons. I think the thing that really influenced me was meeting people from the whole world. So, before, as I mentioned before, we had a lot of friends from America, from England, but not from other countries. And I still remember, I think in my diary, after the first day at the University of London, I wrote, "Today I met people from twenty different countries." So, it was something very new and exciting for me to meet someone from Egypt and five minutes later someone from Finland. So, now it seems funny to me, 'cause it's so normal to us today. But at that time, it was something very new to me, and I wanted to really take the most out of it. And, I don't know, I learned something 30:00about cuisine in India or whatever. I think it was this -- also something that my parents couldn't do, and I knew it and I knew that I'm the first generation that can do it, can travel, that can try, I don't know, original Indian food, cooked by an original Indian or whatever. And this is something, every time I came home, I brought some exotic things for my parents to try. So, I think this was something that really -- and then it became normal, but in the first year it was still very special. I remember I brought, for Christm-- after the first term, I brought two friends home who couldn't travel home 'cause they were from Hong Kong and Taiwan. So, these two friends came with me to the south of Poland, and they both celebrated Christmas with my family. So, this was very special, also for my family, to have them and to host them. (laughs)

AI:Did you celebrate any holidays? Did you stay, well, how about religion in your personal life over the past years?

KL:Uh-huh?

AI:Did you stay religious?

KL:Yes. I would say not religious, but I definitely -- I believe in God, and the time in London, I thought maybe it will change in London. I thought, oh, it's such a cosmopolitan city with so many different religions, and it's no longer like my old little church where I was with my family. But actually, also, on the first day or maybe during the first few days, when I also met a lot of people from different countries, I also met a very amazing group of students who were Christians, and some of them just invited me to their meetings, and that's where 32:00I also went. And I think thanks to this group, also my studies were amazing, 'cause I felt we were really very good friends. We cooked meals together and, yeah, had some worship meetings. So, all the things that (laughs) Christians normally do, and that's what we also did. And so, my faith actually even grew. I would say it grew very much, because I was away from my family, and I had to make my own decisions. So, it was no longer something that my parents imposed on me or expected from me. I could choose for my own, and I decided to continue and to make it also my way. (laughs)

AI:How people react when they find that you, girl from Poland, are studying Jewish studies?

KL:Um-hm. They always are very shocked, and they always ask why. So, I've never met anyone that would not ask this question. So, it is a question I heard 33:00hundreds of times, both in England, then in Israel. So, maybe I should think more about the fact, why they find it so strange. Yeah, all of them asked, Why you do it, and I always gave them these reasons. So, I always told them about the place, my place of birth, and also about the traces of Jewish culture and heritage in Poland that I saw but I didn't know where it comes from, so I wanted to find out, and also about the fact that, yeah, as a Christian, I want to know -- I know that it is the religion that really my religion comes from. So, that's why I wanted to honor it in this way and get to know it.

AI:Do you remember the first day when you came into the synagogue?

KL:Oh, I think there is one synagogue that remained in Oświęcim. It is 34:00actually, also, a very interesting story. It's a synagogue that served as a warehouse for the Nazis. So, it remained untouched, and during the communist times, it was a shop. So, just like most synagogues, it was a shop with carpets, I think. But after the communism, it was -- the end of communism -- it was redecorated and it is now really beautiful. And I think this is the first synagogue that I visited. The interesting thing is that -- yeah, or maybe this can be -- yeah, so, there are no Jews in Oświęcim today, and there is only a very interesting museum and educational center called Auschwitz Jewish Center. And I also did an internship there during the summer, after the end of my 35:00studies. And later on, while in Israel, I met a girl whose grandfather, great-grandfather, served as a shames [sexton] in this synagogue. So, it was such an amazing meeting. And he managed to flee before the war started, so meeting her was, for me, really -- I will never forget her, because I know that the place where I worked, I told many tourists about this place and its function before the war and the things that happened there. But I never thought that I would be able to meet someone like this, a great-granddaughter of a man who worked there. And it was a coincidence that we met, so it was really very special.

AI:Wow! (laughter) I would like to ask you more about your community 36:00involvement, because you never really stopped work for people, relations, I would say more. Could you please tell me more about the project which you are conducting in Germany?

KL:Um-hm. Yes, so maybe, also, as a bridge, I can talk a little bit about this German part of my interest. So, as I said many times until now, it was never my interest, it was never something that was interesting to me or it was never something that I wanted to do just for fun. (laughs) Just like -- (laughs) but I knew it's practical, yeah? And then, after I graduated from UCL, I was wondering what I want to do next. And one of the ideas I had was a Bible school, in Tübingen. These were just nine months of learning and of also community work, a 37:00lot of social projects and also spiritual development. And I wanted to have a year in which I won't attend a university but I will focus more on things like this. And I knew about this place in Tübingen, in Germany, and I thought, Okay, that's where I'm going to go. At that time, I still didn't know that I had a lot of anti-German stereotypes in me. So, there were many things that started annoying me from the very time when I got there, and --

AI:Can you tell me about any?

KL:Yeah, of course. So, in general, in Poland, Germans are seen as those who are very much organized, and structured, and without emotions, and -- yeah, people 38:00who really cannot deal with something like cows or just being spontaneous, yeah? Whereas Poles are seen as those who are spontaneous and laid back. So, these were stereotypes, but in a way, I started noticing some of these things there. And I never thought that I have so much, also, unforgiveness in me because of my interests. And then I remembered that at school, when I was so much touched by the whole issue of Holocaust, I wrote an essay or a poem in which I described an experience of someone in Auschwitz. It was like a poetic description. (laughs) And I remember that every time I said "German" in this poem, I used a small 39:00letter. So, suddenly, it came back to me when I was in Germany. I thought, Okay, there are many things that are in me that are still -- a lot of unforgiveness and a lot of -- and I looked at those people who are young, who are really fun, but I always looked at these faults, and I always looked for proofs of their behavior that is so -- and I tried to find a way why they did what they did by looking at what they are doing today. I know maybe it's extreme, but I somehow thought I want to also observe my own behavior and, I don't know, just the fact that people clean a lot in this country, and everything has to be cleaned very, very carefully. So, I thought, Okay, now I know why it worked so well with the whole extermination program. So, I was very much full of unforgiveness. And this group that I had in this Bible school -- we were nineteen -- never knew about 40:00it, because I was afraid to talk about it, of course. But there were more and more aspects that came up. And once, I was really -- I felt that I want to tell them about it and really ask for forgiveness for what I felt, because many of these things were really good and positive, so -- the way their organization helped us to really organize amazing things. And I know that in Poland it wouldn't be possible to organize things that fast, that well, and -- yeah, so I knew that I have to tell them about it, and I did it, which wasn't easy. But this changed something, and from that point on, I can say I feel very well there, and (laugh) I can really appreciate these things. And I can also see them in a new light. But another issue and another reason why I went there is that I know that this community, this church, this group of people is involved in 41:00working through the past and working through the Nazi past. And they didn't do it forever. It's something that they -- they haven't been doing it forever. It's something that started in 2007. And, yeah, so this is something that I found out about, and I wanted to really help in some way and to become a part of it. Why? Because after studying everything that I studied and after knowing everything that I knew, I really felt I don't want to stay only in academia. I don't want to really remain in books and paper and in just -- maybe some encounters, but encounters that are very nice and pleasant, but they never go deeper. And what I saw in the organization that I'm going to talk about in a while is really deep 42:00encounters, and reconciliation that I actually was longing for throughout this time, for my interests in Jewish and Hebrew culture, and learning German. I knew that there is something that needs to be reconciled, and I didn't know how. And this is, of course, is not perfect, but it's the closest thing to this reconciliation that I've ever seen in my life. And this is this March of Life that I'm now involved in.

AI:And March of Life is something different than March of Living, correct?

KL:Yes, March of the Living is the Israeli march, organized by the state for the soldiers, for young people. And March of Life is something completely different. It's a march organized -- that started in this town, Tübingen, in the south of Germany in 2007, when people from this town, a group of people, realized that 43:00they know, they all know about the Holocaust. They all know about things that happened in the Second World War, but it's theoretical, and they know it from the media, they know it from school, but they don't know what their parents and what their grandparents, what their great-grandparents did. They realized that they have no idea. The stories that they heard at home were stories about some radio operators or some nice adventure stories from war. But they never heard the truth. And many of them realized that they want to find out. Often, it wasn't easy to find these informations (sic) by asking. So, there is an office, there is an institution in Berlin which has all these informations (sic), so every person that was a soldier in the Second World War has documents in this organization. And they started writing and asking if they can get these 44:00documents. And it wasn't difficult. And within two, three months, all of them received very concrete information about the involvement of their forefathers in the Nazi regime. And many found out that their forefathers were SS officers, Wehrmacht soldiers, very shocking information with concrete information about the place where they were during the war. And some of these places were, for example, Babi Yar in Kiev, in the Ukraine, which means that the members of their family were involved in mass shootings. Many found out that their forefathers were guards in concentration camps, which, of course, means they killed people. And this awareness really changed their lives, and they knew they can't just 45:00leave it the way it is and just keep this information. And they knew, Okay, our great -- fathers never said sorry. Some of them even remained anti-Semitic until the day of their death. And some of them really never showed any kind of a -- they never showed that they had to do it, or -- they just kept silent through all these years and didn't want to say it's true. And they knew, Okay, we cannot really leave it the way it is. And the first thing they organized -- and they thought it's going to be just a one-off event. They organized a march called March of Life on the route of the death march in the south of Germany. They invited a Holocaust survivor from the United States, Rose Price, who was in this camp. So, this camp -- went from the south of Germany to Dachau and was a very 46:00long route, but they divided it in smaller parts. And after the whole march, this Rose -- and they also talked about concrete involvement. They said my grandfather did this and this and this. And I think I've never seen anything of this kind before. And when I saw it, after I graduated in 2012 -- in March of Life in Poland, because this March of Life grew, and then there were marches organized in the east of Germany, in Latvia, Lithuania, in the Ukraine, and many other countries where Holocaust took place. And they really went everywhere, and everywhere where the people who had some members of family involved in these places, they stood on the stage in front of thousands of people, sometimes, hundreds of people, and they said -- and they called it by name. And I thought, Oh, I've never seen anything like this. It's not possible not to cry when they 47:00do it. But it's like the deepest form of reconciliation I've ever seen. And in this first march, the Holocaust survivor, Rose Price, when she got to this place of her biggest tragedy -- she was there as a child, at this prison there. And she collapsed. She started crying, and she couldn't walk. But then, she stood up and she said, "Something in my heart really was healed." She said it, and I think actually facing the biggest horror and the biggest tragedy really made it possible for her to walk past it and to really -- and she smiled after it. So, I can't really explain it in a very rational way, but there is something in this facing the darkest and the most terrible, the most tragic things and calling them by name. And there is this wonderful kind of restoration that comes after 48:00it. So, that's why I was so much drawn to the organization, and that's why I'm -- today, I'm really happy to be involved as a volunteer in the work of this organization. (laughs)

AI:It's so powerful. And I would like to ask you, because of the power of this organization and the work, what this organization's taking over, I would like to ask you about the events which you are planning to take place in Poland. How is your -- Polish girl, living in Germany -- cooperation with Jewish community is possible?

KL:Yes, so, after this one year of Bible school, I stood before a new decision, whether I'm going to move back to Poland or somewhere else? Actually, my original plan was to only stay there for a year and then move to Israel and do 49:00another master course or whatever else. But I didn't want to stay there. But then, I thought, Actually, I think I want to stay there. And I think it's going to continue. And I think there are more things coming and more things coming when it comes to the Polish-German reconciliation, to the Polish-Jewish reconciliation, to the German-Jewish reconciliation, and also in different generations. So, I thought, I'm going to take another risk, and I'm just going to stay in Tübingen and see what happens. And the interesting thing is that, knowing Hebrew, I'm able to translate very interesting meetings. There are groups of Israeli tourists coming to Tübingen who found out about March of Life, and now they come to an exhibition about March of Life. And they listen to 50:00the same story. And many people who also had forefathers involved in Nazi regime ask for forgiveness on behalf of their families, or just for the things that their families did to the families of those who sit in front of us. So, these meetings are just really touching, and many people cry. And there is also so much joy afterwards. So, it's a big privilege to be able to be there and to translate these meetings. And moreover, there are things coming in Poland. The whole idea of March of Life is also connected to a book called "The Veil of Silence," and the veil of silence is this silence and indifference when it comes to the truth, the family truth. And in this case, in the German case, it's the truth about the Nazi involvement of great-grandparents. But I think there are 51:00veils of silence in each nation. And also, in the book, there, the author, Jobst Bittner, talks also about -- not only about the veil of silence in the lives of the perpetrators, but also of the victims. And we can read about it, also, in the lives of many Holocaust survivors who never talked about their experiences, and even though they never talked, their children really suffered from these traumas. And this is the topic of this book, and I believe that it is really worth looking at -- it's really important to find what the veil of silence in Poland is. And I believe there are many, and one of them is just the absence of Jewish community and the fact that they constituted a very important part of the society here before the war. And today, apart from those who really are interested in the Jewish studies, it's not a topic that appears in the family 52:00history, this whole issue, the competition of suffering, the fact that Poles suffered so much it really makes it almost impossible for them to acknowledge the suffering of the Jewish people in Poland. So, there are many other issues that really deserve -- and should be unveiled and uncovered in Poland, and that's why we want to organize a seminar in Poland called "Breaking the Veil of Silence," and I'm supposed to -- I'm responsible for finding the topics which constitute this veil of silence in Poland. So, I'm really looking forward to it, and I hope that, also, in Poland, it will be possible to dig a little bit deeper and to find things, and also to talk openly about them, because I believe that this is something that brings change, when we talk openly about the hardest -- 53:00and the things that were forgotten, that were hidden. I believe that this really helps to bring this reconciliation and to make the future better.

AI:How often, in your life, were you asked about anti-Semitism in your Poland. Not in your town, but in general, in Poland?

KL:Not that often. But I think quite often abroad. But never in Poland. (laughs) So, what I believe, I think it is a difficult topic, but I know that outside of Poland, Poland is known as a very anti-Semitic country. In Poland, in the Polish understanding, Poland is not an anti-Semitic country. In the Polish 54:00understanding, because of the whole victimhood, Poland is seen as a very nice, very heroic country, a very good nation. So, I think the problem is that students who go abroad suddenly start being asked about the anti-Semitism and they have no idea about the Polish anti-Semitism, because they just come from a school system that just never talks about the bad aspects of the Polish history. So, I think there is this really big imbalance. On the other hand, in the world, people don't often mention things like, I don't know, the Jewish-Polish coexistence that really -- Jews lived here for more than thousand years, and there were difficult times, very difficult times. There were many problems. But also, they lived here, they wanted to live here, and they stayed here. So, this aspect is never really shown abroad in the Jewish circles in which this notion 55:00of Poland as anti-Semitic appears. So, I think there is a huge imbalance when it comes to this aspect, and I personally believe that no matter what people talk about Poland abroad, no matter what the notion of Poland is, our responsibility as Poles is to face the truth. And no matter how much anti-Semitic -- to what extent -- whether it was anti-Semitic or is anti-Semitic, I think it is worth talking about, and we shouldn't really turn away from this fact, because there are events that just confirm it, like the pogrom in Kielce or the pogrom in Jedwabne, and many other events that -- and the fact that the Jewish people after the war didn't feel safe here. They didn't want to stay here, and they 56:00were -- okay, they left because the State of Israel was established. They left because they didn't want to live on the cemetery that Poland was for them. But also, many of them left because they were not accepted and they were not seen as neighbors that people would like to have. And just on my side, I just say -- I just feel sorry that it was the case. And, of course, it wasn't always the case, but just for the fact that many didn't want to stay here, I just feel sorry, myself, and I think there are many things that, as a nation, we also could apologize for. And also, before the war, there were many problems and many anti-Semitic political parties, and this was the reality. So, I'm sorry that for many Jews today, Poland is seen as anti-Semitic. And I'm sure there are also 57:00reasons why it is seen as such.

AI:Do you think that reconciliation is possible in Poland?

KL:Yes, but the thing that is crucial is for Poles and for -- not only for Poles, but for each nation that wants to (laughs) find a way of new dialogue, but also dialogue that is deeper, is just to face also the darkest sides of its own history and the darkest things that the nation has done, which, in Poland, there are many. There are many such things regarding the Jewish people. So, yeah, I believe that reconciliation is possible, but seeing this model, I mean, looking at what kind of a reconciliation is possible when people talk openly about the crimes and about the negative attitudes, I just -- I'm just convinced 58:00that there is no other way for reconciliation than just really taking the bad things and expressing them and talking about them, and not turning away from it. And I know a group like this in Poland, only one today, but I believe there will be more. In Kielce, it's a group of people who say, Yes, it did happen in our town, and this is what was possible, and we are very sorry for it. And they don't try to explain that many Poles saved the Jews, which is also true. But they just talk, Yes, but many didn't try to save, and many were indifferent. So, I think that only such people can really bring reconciliation, because always trying to justify our own faults will never bring us further. I believe that the thing that really will bring reconciliation and will make real friendship between our nations possible is when we say, Yes, it did happen, and we are very 59:00sorry, and to call it by name.

AI:Thank you for that, Kacia. I would like to ask you about your current place at the university, and where are you in terms of geography and academia?

KL:It's a very interesting question. So, I live in Germany, in Tübingen. But thanks to a good friend of mine, (laughs) you, I found an interesting way of doing my master's in Poland -- not a distance learning course, a normal course -- without living in Poland. So, I can now say it worked, and I've just finished my fourth semester, and now I'm writing my master's thesis about Kultur-lige in Poland. After they were forced to leave the Ukraine, this cultural and artistic 60:00group moved to Poland, and here they were also involved in the activity of the Jewish-Yiddish schools, and that's the topic of my thesis. And I'm writing it and working with sources in Yiddish, and very interesting paper, newspaper, Jewish newspaper called "Shul un lebn." So, that's my thesis. It will be -- I'm just finishing it right now. And soon, I'm going to start another master course in Heidelberg, and it will be a master degree in Jewish museology, so a very interesting, (laughs) a very unusual course. And the whole aim is to change the whole knowledge about the Jewish history and also the relations between nations. 61:00And the things that really are interesting for me: how to change it into an exhibition or a work or an activity that will be interesting for young people. So, museum work, but in a Jewish context.AI:From your perspective, what is the place of Yiddish within the academy?

KL:I think it has a huge meaning, and I believe that it's very sad that so few people can speak it fluently today, 'cause even during my research for my master's thesis, I realized that there are so many sources that no one reads because no one understands them. And I was in Warsaw in the Jewish Historical Institute, and there are just hundreds of magazines, of memoirs, and things that really never were read after they were written, and it's a shame, because they 62:00are in a very good condition, and one could do fascinating research. But the problem is that so few people know Yiddish, and they write their works without using these crucial sources. So, I think it's a shame, and I believe, I hope there will be more and more people studying this language.

AI:Do you think that there is a Yiddish revival in Poland, but also in Europe?

KL:Yes, I think so. I know that when I started studying, there were maybe a few, yeah, some Yiddish course-- summer courses offered. And today, as far as I know, there are many more. So, even within these few years, the number of summer Yiddish courses grew. And I know that when I started studying, it was still not very popular to study Yiddish in Israel. And today, as far as I know, it is very popular to study Yiddish, also in Israel. I mean, maybe not very, but it is 63:00possible at Tel Aviv University or at Hebrew University. And in America, I think it's even bigger, the revival of the secular Yiddish, (laughs) interest is growing. I think it is true.

AI:Well, do you think that it's secure future or not really?

KL:I think the future depends on people who will be also passing this passion (laughs) on, and people who will be able to really inflame -- or to make young people or make other students, younger than them, interested in it so that it can be continued. There is a risk that it will be just like something like a fashion, and then the interest will die out. I hope not, but I believe that we have to really try to make more people interested in it. And also, yeah, I think 64:00that it should -- we need more -- yeah, because today, learning Yiddish -- it's difficult to make a living out of it, right? So, I think we also need some more commercial platforms that will make it interesting. Not only academic platforms, but also translations of books or films based on some Yiddish materials. I don't know, but something that will really make it also -- yeah, the whole field should also be able to earn some money and to make it possible so that it can grow.

AI:Have you had any contact with native Yiddish speakers?

KL:Yes, Helen Beer, Dr. Helen Beer, my first -- my second Yiddish teacher is a native speaker.

AI:(speaking at same time) Who was the first?

KL:Lily, Dr. Lily Kahn. Yeah, I think she's the only person. And then, so while in this Bible school in Tübingen, we went to Israel for a month to organize meetings with Holocaust survivors in Israel, many, many meetings. And there I met many native Yiddish speakers. Many of them are from the Ukraine or from Russia, and they never spoke Yiddish after the war, and suddenly hearing us speaking German, it made this Yiddish -- made Yiddish come back to them, and they started speaking Yiddish again with us. So, there were many conversations. And sometimes it wasn't very easy to understand, 'cause I think it was a different dialect than the dialect that I learned during my studies. But, yeah, I could mostly understand it, and they were all very moved by the fact that I can now speak it and that I studied it. So, it was really my reward. (laughs)

AI:Have you note any trends or changes among students, colleagues in the field, and even broadly in the time you have been involved with Yiddish academically? Or actually, since you are still involved, Yiddish academically?

KL:Changes? Hm. I --

AI:Besides the fact that there are so many? But what do you think about this new idea of studying Yiddish on the summer courses and in doing these little projects later?

KL:Yeah, I think it's great. It's really amazing, and also knowing that, yeah, we really need people who will be able to read these documents, these books that were not read after the war, 'cause, yeah, I just believe that there should be more of that -- events, but also, there should be something like a productive 67:00continuation, and something that -- yeah, not only reading it, but also writing works about it. Or maybe not only academic works, but also other projects that would make it available to the world, because we cannot expect (laughs) that the whole world will learn Yiddish. But those who manage to learn it should, I believe, make it available by doing something with the materials that they have access to.

AI:We are nearing to the end of our time, but I would like to ask you about what is your favorite Yiddish word, phrase, or song?

KL:(laughs) Oh, I have a lot. But (laughs) my favorite word, oh, there are many. But I don't know, I just like the words that are still used today. It's also 68:00connected to the fact that I live in Germany today, so I hear these words quite often, with a different pronunciation. But, yeah, I don't know, I like the typical word "shlepn," or I like the expression with the Hebrew part, takhles redn [talk business], or to talk in a very Russian way, it's nice -- I don't know, the question about favorite things is never my good question. I can never think of it on the spot, so -- (laughs)

AI:Do you have any favorite Yiddish books today?

KL:Yes. I like classical Yiddish books written by Sholem Aleichem or Yitzkhok 69:00Leybush Peretz, and also I really enjoyed reading all the works that I use in my master's thesis. So, all the magazines written by Kultur-lige and even the magazine "Shul un lebn," it's just very fascinating to read about their aspirations and dreams and things that they really wanted to create. So, this is something I really like. And many Yiddish songs I like. (laughs) There are many songs I like. I won't sing them maybe, but -- (laughs)

AI:I want to personally thank you for sharing your stories with me for the Wexler Oral History Project and for your time, which we spent here. And I have one more question, which is very important for me. Based on your experience so 70:00far, what is your advice for the future generations?

KL:Hmm. (laughs) I think my advice is to -- maybe it sounds a little bit, yeah, simple, but it is also simple: to just believe that if you have a dream and if there is something you really love and you really want to do, it's worth doing it. And never try to convince yourself that you like something you don't like. (laughs) So, for me, my dream was to learn Yiddish, to learn Hebrew, and I thought, Hmm, who knows if it's possible, but -- and it was! And until today, I'm just so happy that I can do these things that I'm doing. And I just believe there are so many people who sort of give up their dreams because they think they're not possible. So, I think that passion and really big interest is something that drives us. So, just do what you believe in and what you like, 71:00what you love, yes. (laughs)

AI:Thank you, a sheynem dank, Kacia.

[End of interview]