MAX LEVINE ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney, and today is September 2nd, 2015. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center with Max Levine, and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

MAX LEVINE: Yes, you do. Ready to roll.

CW:Thanks. (laughs) Great. So, you can look at me during the interview, too.

ML:Okay, cool.

CW:You don't have to look at the camera.

ML:Okay. (laughter) Camera's on?

CW:Yep.

ML:Okay.

CW:And we're rolling.

ML:Sure.

CW:So, I want to start with your family history.

ML:Okay.

CW:So, can you tell me what you know about your family as far back as you know?

ML:Okay. So, my parents were born in Poland. My father in Warsaw, mother in 1:00Lodz. They were both separated from their families. My mother went into the Lodz Ghetto, my father went into the Warsaw Ghetto, and they were both put in concentration camps and survived, obviously. They met in a DP camp after the war. Displaced person -- persons. And they had a baby in Germany. I never knew any family other than my parents. I never had, especially on my father's side -- there were no grandparents, there were no uncles, there were no aunts, there were no cousins. No one. My father, out of over a hundred people, was the only survivor. My mother lost her entire immediate family, so I never knew anyone on that side, except she had first cousins. And there were five brothers and sisters. And during the war, they basically brought my mother into their family 2:00and helped her get through the war. And, incredibly enough, these five brothers and sisters, who all separated during the war, all survived and met each other after the war. And I think it's the only documented case of five siblings surviving the war, all five siblings. And their last name was Rabowski.

CW:Do you know anything about your grandparents or what your parents' life was like before the war?

ML:Yeah. Again, as I said, I never knew grandparents. But my mother was brought up in a fairly affluent home. Her parents owned a dance studio, and my grandfather on my mother's side was a dance instructor. And she said her life was great. There was always people there, there was nightlife, and her brother, 3:00her favorite sibling, whose name was David, was a child prodigy musician, and his playing of the accordion got him through the entire war. He played for the Nazis. Unfortunately, two weeks before the end, he made a left instead of a right and he was killed.

CW:Do you know anything more about that dance studio, what kind of --

ML:I just know that it was Catholic, Jewish. It was a mixture of everybody who lived in Lodz. It was very well known, and it was just, as my mother said, a fun place to grow up. She learned how to dance pretty well. It was great. You know, life was good for them, until it wasn't.

CW:Was the family religious, do you know?

ML:No. They were never religious, but they were more traditional, where I think 4:00on Friday nights, they bentsh likht or they lit the Friday night candles. But, no, they weren't religious.

CW:And what about your dad's family?

ML:My dad's came from a meager lifestyle, I think. He said his father might have been in the produce business. But I don't know what that meant. Did he sell it, did he buy, he -- I don't know. But it was produce, he said. But they didn't have much. But they had a loving family, but not much money.

CW:And also not religious? Or --

ML:Also not religious. More traditional. Lit candles Friday night. I don't think they -- no one kept kosher. It wasn't kosher. Not religious, no. No. My father used to tell, of course, great stories that they did send them to Hebrew school. 5:00But he was never bar mitzvahed. And he was never a student. He said he would walk up the steps at the school, and if he saw the rabbi, he would climb out the window so he didn't have to go to school. That kind of remained his thing forever.

CW:Any other stories from before the war that have been passed down that gave you a sense of kind of what life was like?

ML:Not really, except I keep going back to they had a nice life. My father, on his side, even though they didn't have money, there was enough food to eat. He had a great relationship with his siblings. He had twin sisters and a brother. And, on my mother's side, I mean, things were just rocking. (laughs) The weekends came, the house was full, the studio was full, and it was fun.

CW:And did they talk to you about the process of how that changed for them? Was 6:00it sudden or gradual with the war beginning?

ML:I think it was pretty sudden. It was like, Wow, all of a sudden, this is reality. There was rumors that the Germans were coming in, the Nazis were coming in. And they took it seriously, but they didn't obviously think it was going to explode into what it did explode into. And once the process started rolling, it was, boom, it was done.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Can you just tell me what happened in terms of your parents, like what camps did they end up in?

ML:Yeah, pretty much my father went from the Warsaw Ghetto to -- I'm pretty sure he went to Treblinka first, and then he was shipped to Auschwitz. And I think he might have been at Auschwitz for the better part of three years. And remember, 7:00he was a kid. I mean, when he went into Auschwitz, he was maybe sixteen or seventeen years old. My mother's family was taken to the Lodz Ghetto. And she did a lot of work in different areas for the Nazis, and then in the end was also thrown into a concentration camp. I think she might have been in Auschwitz at the very end of the war. My father actually has the numbers on his arm. My mother never did. My father's three years was a brutal existence, and I don't know if we're going to talk about much of that. But from the time I was fifteen or sixteen, we would sit down with a bottle of vodka, and it would open him up into what he saw in the concentration camps. So, it really went from believing in God, even though not being religious -- to not believing in God, where he 8:00lost faith one day when he saw three rabbis lined up on a wall and machine-gunned to death as they sang "Hatikvah." And he was sixteen or seventeen at the time. And he said, "Where is God?" So --

CW:Was there a specific time you would do this? Or just sort of whenever?

ML:It's funny, I worked with my father. My father had a butcher store. He came to this country -- again, I'm going to ramble a little bit.

CW:That's fine.

ML:But after the war, they got thrown into DP camps. And again, remember they were maybe nineteen or twenty after the war, twenty-one. And they were all orphans. So, he met my mother, and as I said before, they had a little baby. And 9:00he ran a little bit wild in the DP camp for a couple of years before he met my mother. But then --

CW:What do you mean?

ML:I think he did his thing, like a normal teenager or twenty-year-old, 'cause the war ended in '45, I was born in '48. So, there was a couple of years he was hanging out with the boys. And through his hanging out process, they formed their own kind of, like, Sopranos organization and got involved in the black market. And my father, who was the kindest man and sweetest man I ever met was also physically the toughest. I mean, I would bring my friends in who were football players and he would take the biggest guys and put them on the floor. He was just tough. He was like a Rocky Marciano kind of build, like five-six but 180 and all thick. And he was a strongarm for this group. And the reason I'm 10:00saying it is that in the DP camps, my parents had everything. They had money, they had their own apartment, they had a maid. My father drove a Mercedes. (laughs) And, again, I'm going to ramble a little bit: when I was four months old, I came down with pneumonia. I think was pneumonia. And I was close to dying. And they told my parents the only thing that could save me was penicillin. Well, there was no penicillin. Where you going to get penicillin except through the black market. So, my father and a friend got in his car and they told the doctors, Keep him alive. We're coming back with penicillin. And he did. To this day, I don't know where it came from, (laughs) but he did.

CW:Wow.

ML:So, cool story.

CW:(laughs) Yeah. And how old were you when you came to the US?

ML:I was about, I'm going to say, a little bit under a year. Little bit under a year.

CW:And you said your name was changed when you came in.

ML:Yeah, my name on my birth certificate was Max Leboshevitz. My father's name Zigmund Leboshevitz. His was changed to Ziggy Levine, and mine was changed to Michael Levine. Don't ask me why. Maybe Max wasn't cool in those days. So, it didn't become Max Levine, but it became Michael Levine. So, all through school, I was Michael Levine, in school. But when I left school, my mother would say, "Max, come here." So, I was Max to my friends outside of school, but Michael 12:00inside of school. That's why I probably have a split personality today. I'm not sure (laughs) if it's -- anyway, and I ran as Michael my entire business life. And then, actually, the last dozen years, I said, I'm not Michael Levine. I'm Max Levine. So, my business cards and everything has changed to Max Levine.

CW:What is the difference for you in terms of the names? Why is Max better?

ML:Because Max was more real to me. Max, traditionally, culturally, was -- that's who I am. Michael Levine was this fictitious business guy who was not who I am, wasn't my personality. But then, I realized Max could still be my personality in business, as well as street. So, I'm Max.

CW:And was your mom's name changed, too?

ML:Yeah, my mother's was Zoshe. Her maiden name was Levkovitsh, Lefkowitz, 13:00Levkovitsh, and then became Susan Levine. So, we became the American version of who we were, so to speak.

CW:Can you describe what it was like to grow up in Brighton Beach in the '50s?

ML:Yeah. Growing up in Brighton Beach was phenomenal. It was phenomenal, even though we had no money. We grew up in a very small apartment in a building in Brighton Beach across the street from the beach. And there was a place, a playground -- I grew up on Brighton Second Street, and there was a playground that was called 2nd Street Park, what else, that I could actually see from the living room window of the building. And every morning, I'd get up and have 14:00something to eat and look outside and go, Wow, the kids are starting to come into the park. And we would play ball.

CW:What kinds of ball?

ML:We would play everything from basketball to stickball to punch ball to softball. And in those days, you weren't afraid to let your kid go into the street. So, from the time I was six or seven, I'd walk across the street, and we'd be in the park, literally till it was dinnertime. And my mother would climb up, would go up on the roof of the building and call me to come up for dinner. And so, we'd play ball all day, and then if you got hot, if it was the summer, you took a swim. And then, I remember my father giving me a dollar, in those days, and we'd walk down the boardwalk to Coney Island, where we would go to Nathan's. And, again, I'm dating myself, 'cause I am pretty old now. For a 15:00dollar, you could get two hot dogs, a hamburger, French fries, and a Coke. And I would bring my father a dime change. So, what could get better than that? I didn't know kids went to camp. Why would you go to camp when you had 2nd Street Park? You had all your friends there and you had the beach, and then you had Coney Island and rides and Nathan's and so on. So, it was great.

CW:Yeah. And who were the other people in the neighborhood?

ML:The other people?

CW:Your friends, and the other families.

ML:Well, it was interesting, because when I was a kid, my parents didn't speak about the war. And they had accents, obviously, and it was a bit embarrassing to me, because the kids in the park, most of them, their parents didn't have accents. However, it dawned on me one day that all of my parents' friends had accents, and that the survivors that they went through the war with somehow 16:00gravitated to this area in Brighton Beach. And there must have been, I'm gonna say, seven or eight families who, although we didn't have actual relatives, they became the extended families. And these were the families that we hung out with all the time, whether eating and drinking and hanging and playing cards. That was the comfort level for my parents. They didn't actually have a lot of, as we called them, American friends. And we were labeled the greenhorns in those days, the griner came in. And it was tough for them. A lot of even the Jewish people in Brighton Beach didn't like 'em.

CW:In that group, you said they had an accent in English, but did you hear 17:00Yiddish growing up? Was that mostly what they were talking in?

ML:All the time, yeah. Actually, they spoke mostly Yiddish, and then occasionally, when they didn't want me to understand, 'cause I became fluent in Yiddish, they spoke in Polish when they didn't want me to understand the Yiddish. But never -- we didn't speak English.

CW:At home, it was all Yiddish.

ML:I mean, eventually, yeah, we started speaking English. But at home, between my parents and their friends, it was Yiddish and then some Polish.

CW:And -- so, can you talk a little more about what it was like to have survivor parents sort of in your friend group and --

ML:Yeah. Well, again, for me personally, in my house, it was -- I have a sister. My sister's five years younger than I am. She was born in the United States. She was born in Brooklyn. And growing up with survivor parents who had lost 18:00everything, it was very difficult as I got older, because -- well, my parents were very different. My mother was afraid of everything. "Where you going? Where you going? Where you going? What are you going to do? Who you going with? Don't go! Don't do this!" My father, no fear. "Go, go! Nothing to be afraid of. Go! Let him go. Let him go." Even to the point where, I think, when I was seventeen or eighteen, I left for Europe and I traveled through Europe. And my mother was sick every day, 'cause in those days you didn't have cell phones. You couldn't check in. And she was just nervous all the time. Scared. Scared. My father, no. No fear.

CW:Where did you go?

ML:In Europe? I went with a couple of friends, and we just traveled all over Europe. I went back -- actually, I wanted to find my roots. So, one of the places we went to was Germany. And my father had told me about some old friends 19:00who stayed, who owned a restaurant. And we walked in, I was with two friends, and in those days, it was like hair down to here and mustaches, and wearing our bellbottoms and dirty. And I walked in and I said, "Hi, I'd like to meet" -- I forgot the guy's name who owned the restaurant. And they looked at me like -- these dirty hippies from America. And then, in Yiddish, I said to him, or in broken German, that I'm Zigmund Leboshevitz's son. And they were freaking out. And one came over to me, actually felt my arm, and he goes, "You must take after your mother," because I'm like as thin -- and my father's this bulky guy. And they put a spread out. They didn't know what to do for us first, so -- and we traveled all over Europe and had a good time --

CW:Yeah.

ML:-- in those days.

CW:What was it -- I mean, you said you were searching for your roots. What was 20:00that like? Was it meaningful?

ML:It was very difficult for me to be in Germany. I was very hostile, probably looking for fights, went here and there. And if I can be specific to one story, we were in a restaurant with me and my two friends, and we were drinking one night. And, at the next table, there were four German men who appeared to be my father's age. And they were talking in German, and I could understand a lot of what they were saying. And I tell my friends, "I'm going over to sit at the table." And I started speaking to them, and I told them I was born in Germany. And they basically said, "Well, what part of the army was your father in?" And I said, "Auschwitz." And it was like a bomb hit the table. And everybody there 21:00denied -- they didn't know anything. Nobody knew anything. And they actually invited us to a party that night. And I told my friends, "We're going." And we went, and we drank together, and it was very weird. There was no fights or anything, but I felt this hostility, where eventually I just left. I had to leave. There was no forgiving on my side. It was very difficult, 'cause remember, it was very fresh, and I was probably twenty. So, we're talking about pretty much forty-five years ago. Yeah, it was difficult.

CW:Did you talk to your parents about it?

ML:Of course.

CW:What was their reaction?

ML:Look, they left Germany. As I said, my parents had it pretty good in Germany after the war. They had everything they wanted financially. But they needed to 22:00leave. My father got himself in trouble -- you'll have to read the book that I'm working on -- and got himself thrown in jail. But they were afraid. As my mother put it for many years, after losing everybody, she didn't want to lose him, too. So, they left and when they got to America, they came with nothing. Zero. No family, no money, no trade. Had a baby. Well, what do you do? How do you start your life again? But they did.

CW:And what was the work that your father got into here?

ML:So, he came to this country -- remember, he was still a kid. He was in his early twenties, and he -- they probably had a sponsor. Somebody had to sign for 23:00you to come to that area. And that person, I think, was a butcher or worked in a slaughterhouse. And he said, "Look, Ziggy, I might be able to get you a job in the slaughterhouse." And my father told me he went for his interview, and his interview the guy had him flex. And he felt my father's arms. Thank goodness they weren't the size of mine. (laughs) And he hired him, and basically his job was to shlep the carcasses of the meat, the cows, and put them in the freezer. Almost like Rocky, if you saw the movie "Rocky," when he's in the freezer. Well, my father was the original Rocky. And he then learned a trade. He learned how to bone the meat, and that led him into opening up a butcher store, which he did, and then he became a butcher and he owned his own stores. Never made much money, 24:00which was the bad part. But the good part is that we never knew it, because there was always food in the house. There was always -- I don't know why, but -- three chickens in the oven and a brisket, and burgers. And there was always food. And, of course, that was super important to them, coming from where they came, where they went for so many years with no food. So, even in -- I mean, all my friends were welcome, and neighbors. You never know. "Ma, why is there three chickens in the oven and a brisket?" "Well, you never know who's gonna come up. You don't know! Maybe -- tell your friends to come up." And they did! And there was always food, and it was great.

CW:Yeah. (laughter) Can you describe the home a little bit to me? What was the building and the space of your home like?

ML:Yeah, we lived in a six-floor building that was separated into two sides. 25:00Each floor had about ten or twelve apartments. I lived in a three-and-a-half, four-room apartment. And I thought it was great, but I shared a room with my sister till I actually moved out. And as kids, I didn't think it was a big deal. But then, as you get to be a teenager, start saying, Hey, we don't have our own room, why don't we just put a drape or something to separate -- and -- I was very close with my sister growing up, very protective, and still am. We still have a great relationship. I just spoke to her and told her I was coming here. But the apartment was tiny. But who knew anything else? Who knew people had homes and driveways that they -- pull your car into a driveway? I mean, I didn't know that that existed. And the park was an extension of our apartment. It's 26:00like, Wait a second, three rooms? I'm out of here. I'm going to the park for the day. I lived in the park. So, it was, again -- it's like if you don't know that there's another world -- and my parents were very loving and caring and supportive. So, what could be better than that?

CW:Right. What was Jewish about your home?

ML:That's a good question. The language. I went to Hebrew school from the time I was probably eight. I went to regular public school, but this whole thing was about his bar mitzvah, this kind of thing -- well, at eight years old, why am I going to Hebrew school? I got a lot of years before I'm going to be thirteen. And I didn't like it at all. But it was a place to hang out with my other Jewish friends who -- nobody liked it, but it was all primed to go to your bar mitzvah.

CW:What were the teachers like? Can you tell me about (UNCLEAR)?

ML:Yeah, they were like old Jewish rabbis with bad breath, that never brushed their teeth. And they would talk to you in Hebrew. Of course, we didn't understand Hebrew.

CW:Were they survivors?

ML:No, I don't think they were survivors. They were just beards and they looked like they were actors playing the part of the Hebrew school teacher. So, we went because it made my parents happy, that they wanted me to be bar mitzvahed. That would be a big thing. So, I'll tell you a story, of course. So, they said that they survived and they're going to have a big bar mitzvah for me. They had no money. But somehow, and I have it all on tape, they had a huge bar mitzvah for me, and basically invited every survivor that lived in a close enough area to 28:00attend, and who would be willing to come from all over. It wasn't black tie, but it was dress really well. And the funny story (laughs) is -- this is a classic -- that my father had a friend, who was known as Monyek the tailor, because he was a tailor in the Old Country. And he summoned Monyek to the house. It was almost like the Godfather summoning the guy in to fix up Sonny after he was shot at the causeway. He said, "Monyek, it's Max's bar mitzvah coming up, and you need to make him a special suit." So, Monyek said, "Ziggy, whatever you want. I will make him a special mohair suit." And my father said, "I'm going to give you one direction for the suit, 'cause Max is gonna get a lot of gifts in envelopes. You make those pockets deep enough in the suit that he could put every envelope, 29:00too, 'cause we don't want anybody taking those envelopes." And I swear, he made this mohair suit where (laughs) you could stick your hand into the pocket and it would reach your knee. And I kept that suit forever. Forever. And the bar mitzvah was great. And we have it on film. I don't know how they did it. They had no money. And it was a classic bar mitzvah. So, I guess that's part of the Jewish tradition. As far as religious, I'm going to flip into Yom Kippur, because I have these stories in my head. Yom Kippur, obviously, we fast. We were supposed to fast. So, Yom Kippur morning, I put on my suit, but I know I'm not going right to shul. I'm going to go to the park first, because that's our 30:00tradition. But I peek in the kitchen, and my father's having a bagel mit [with] lox. He can never say with lox, even till the very end. "Dad, what are you doing?" "I'm having a bagel mit lox." "But dad, it's Yom Kippur." And he's dressed in a suit. He's going to go to the shul. I said, "We're supposed to fast." And he goes, "Sit down for a second." And I said, "Okay, what?" He goes, "I fasted for four years. I fasted for everybody." He said, "If you want to fast, God bless you. Good luck to you. You fast. I'm having a bagel mit lox." (laughter) So, that was my religious -- kind of my bar mitzvah, so to speak. And I had a bagel mit lox with him, and then we brushed our teeth, we went to shul. 31:00He gave a donation, and that was our Yom Kippur.

CW:And what shul did you go to?

ML:It was a shul in Brighton Beach, two blocks away where everybody went to. It was, I don't know, it was -- we were certainly not Orthodox Jews. My father, ironically, opened a butcher store in a ghetto neighborhood. And the store was all pork products. So, here's this guy coming from Poland and the camps, and Jewish, and we're selling pork chops and pig tails and pork this, and --

CW:Did you eat it at home, too?

ML:We ate some of it at home. Maybe pork chops. But I used to work with him every Saturday in his butcher store from the time I was a kid. And he would hire 32:00some of the tough black kids in the neighborhood. I mean, the gang members. And they loved him, 'cause he was tougher than they were. And they would cook. And, "What are you eating today? Well, let's have a drink," and I was fifteen. Let's have a drink and let's eat pig's knuckles, or neck bones or whatever. And in the end, (laughs) it was pretty good.

CW:Did your father continue with any of the Sopranos-type stuff when he came to the US? (laughs)

ML:You have to read the book.

CW:Okay. (laughs)

ML:Actually, he didn't. He didn't. And he had a very, very difficult life making a living. And if I can go off on a tangent, when he left Germany, he had a 33:00friend there. I'm not going to give any names, but his friend stayed when my father left. And my father's friend became one of the wealthiest men in Europe. He's a multi-billionaire. In 1972, my parents' plans were always to visit Israel. That was one of their goals. And in 1972, on a Saturday -- and it's really wild, because it's the only Saturday that I didn't work in the store. I don't know why. I didn't go. My mother went. And we had a black policeman, and he used to come in every Saturday, off-duty. And he would wait for us till the 34:00store closed. And he'd buy some food and they'd make him some packages. He's a great man. His name was Elijah Stroud, and he was about six months away from retiring from NYPD. He had never pulled a gun out in his life. And two kids, I'm going to call them, two members of the Black Liberation Army came in like cowboys, shooting. And they blew his head off immediately, Elijah Stroud. And my mother bolted. Somehow had the wherewithal -- you talk about a survivor mentality. And she bolted into the back where my father was cleaning. He thought firecrackers went off. And the gunman went after my mother, shooting. And my 35:00father grabbed him from behind. Once my father -- you're done. You can't get away. And all the rest of the bullets went up into the ceiling. The second gunman came in shooting like a cowboy to get his friend out of the store. And when he got to my father, he was out of -- he put the gun to his head and he had no more bullets. He ran out of bullets. It was front page of all the New York newspapers. We went to the funeral, when John Lindsay was the mayor of New York. And it was devastating. But I'm off on a tangent, I think, because -- now I remember why -- because they were supposed to leave for Israel the week after the shooting. And there was all these investigation-- a cop killed in New York. It was huge. And they said they're not going. And I said, "You have to go. You 36:00didn't do anything. You have to go." And I drove them to the airport. And they went to Israel with a few -- I think it was my mother's cousins. And they were staying, I think, in the Tel Aviv Hilton or whatever the hotel was. And they went up in the elevator, and my mother said to my father, "I think I just saw Yosl." I'm not going to tell you his last name yet, but I may. And my father said, "Bist meshuge -- you're crazy. Can't be." So, they go to their room and they call the front desk, and my father said, "Is Yosl" -- and they go, Yeah, he's here. Who's calling? And my father says, "Ziggy Levine." Well, there was no Ziggy Levine. Who's Ziggy Levine? So, he was with an entourage, this person, and 37:00he said, "There's some guy, Ziggy Levine, on the phone." He goes, "Who?" So, my father -- he had a nickname for my father, and I forget what that nickname was. He said, "Tell him -- is here." And guy went wild. He says, "Meet me downstairs in five minutes." I think it was one o'clock in the morning. And he came down with his entourage, and they drank and they ate. And, of course, my father picked up the check. (laughs) But Yosl said to him, "Come back to Germany." He said, "What do you do in America?" He said, "Well, I have a butcher store, and I don't make a lot of money, but it's fine. I have food." He goes, "Well, shut your butcher store down, take your family, and come back to Germany and I'll set you up. You'll never have to work hard for the rest of your life." And they passed. And it's funny, I've heard about this man over the years, but I never 38:00figured out his real name until this year, believe it or not. And he's a multi-billionaire. He built half of Israel. He built Tel Aviv University. He's involved with so many things. I've reached out to him. Not that I want anything. I just wanted to understand. And no one's gotten back to me. And I have some ideas why not. There's maybe some stories he doesn't want to share, that he had with my father in the DP camps after the war. So, why did I just tell you? (laughter)

CW:We were --

ML:I don't know why I just told you. (laughter)

CW:We were talking about his business and how he made his living --

ML:Yeah.

CW:-- in the US, so your father --

ML:So, he was -- and again, he had this store in the ghetto area in Brooklyn. And it was a horrible time at that point. And he said, "I'm going to switch, I'm 39:00going to move out of that neighborhood, and I'm going to open a store in Brighton Beach, and all my clientele's going to be Jewish." And after six months of dealing with the Jewish clientele, (laughs) he said, "I'm done. I'm going back. I'm going to be fine." And he reopened another store.

CW:So, what was it like, the relationships between the different ethnicities in Brooklyn growing up?

ML:Where we grew up was mostly Jewish, but yet there was a distinction between the refugees and the Americans. And they basically gravitated to each other. I didn't know their -- well, once I got older and I started hanging with friends, I would meet their parents. But really, it was just the survivors all the time. Their kids, all the time. They became my family. They became my closest friends. 40:00But yet, in 2nd Street Park -- and again, it was mostly Jewish, but there was some non-Jews, as well. But it didn't matter, because the goal was, let's play ball, let's have fun. And even if you fought with somebody, an hour later you were their best friends. And that was what growing up was like.

CW:And when your parents would get together with other survivors, what would they do?

ML:They would eat, they would drink, and they would play cards. And they would laugh, no doubt about it. They didn't really spend a lot of time, at least in front of the kids, talking about the war. And that actually changed for me when I was maybe fifteen, when I would sit with my father and we would have a few drinks together and try not to finish the bottle. (laughs) And he would open up, and he would just talk until he broke down.

CW:What was that like for you?

ML:It was brutal -- brutal but yet wanting to know everything. Wanted to be like a sponge and take everything in. And the reality is that as much as I heard from my father, who was there, in my wildest dreams I couldn't imagine, I couldn't fathom what it was like. Even at night, I'd think about it -- But, no, that really happened? How did you get through? How did that -- how did you --- it wasn't overnight. It was years in the process. "How did you make it through?" And his -- always used to say to me, "It wasn't my time." That was his line. "It wasn't my time." Even when, in the store, when Elijah, or Jerry as we called him, was murdered and they got to my father and they ran out of bullets, I said, 42:00"Dad." "It wasn't my time." And that's the story that I'm trying to put together. The title is "It Wasn't My Time."

CW:And did your mom at any point start to talk to you more about --

ML:No, my mother, who was interviewed by Spielberg's Shoah Foundation -- and she was phenomenal in it. My mother's very articulate. To this day, she's amazing. She should run my business. I'd be really successful. But she could never talk about it at home. She was always sick. Always. Whether it was physical, whether it was mental, severe headaches all the time, trauma. Total trauma, and couldn't talk about it. My father was, "Have a drink, hang out, have another drink. I need to talk about it." She would tell me about her family life, but not really 43:00the war. Not what happened, too much, in the war.

CW:So, when you, I guess, left -- we've been talking, obviously, about your early life. Can you just fill me in, sort of, on the snapshot of where you are today? You live in -- outside of Philly now?

ML:Yeah, I live in a suburb of Philly. It's called Fort Washington. I've been there for over thirty years. It's very cool. It's a nice, pretty decent size house with a driveway. I raised two daughters there, and it's very different than growing up in Brooklyn, in Brighton Beach. And actually, when my parents came to visit for the first time, it was like, "Wait, you live here? (laughs) Oy, I only wish my parents could see where you live. I only wish Hitler could have seen what I accomplished." So, we're still there. We kind of travel a lot. 44:00Things have been good for us. Oy, knock wood. (laughter) Two daughters and two grandchildren now. And, yeah, it's been pretty cool.

CW:When you were raising your daughters, what was important to you to pass on to them about being Jewish?

ML:Well, remember, my daughters grew up with two sets of grandparents. Both my wife and I were lucky enough to have our parents up until a few years ago, which is very unusual. People used to say, You have all four sets of parents? Nobody does. And actually, my mother-in-law died about four years ago. She was an amazing woman. (cries) And my father died about two years ago. So, they spent a 45:00lot of time --- they spent a lot of time with their grandparents, and they had the firsthand knowledge of the food and the traditions and the culture. And, Eat, eat, eat, eat! And food, and, of course, my oldest daughter, Corinne, who's the yoga teacher, when I took her to visit her grandparents -- this is about twelve, thirteen years ago, to Florida -- she actually is this beautiful, thin, model-looking yoga teacher. And when my father saw her in Florida, he said, "Corinne, what's wrong with you? You're too skinny!" He goes, "I got great news for you, Corinne." Corinne goes, "What, grandpa?" He says, "Your grandmother 46:00made a brisket!" She said, "Grandpa, I'm a vegan." He goes, "Vegan? What's that? Vegan-shmegan. Sit down, eat the brisket." (laughter) So, she was blessed. My kids were blessed that they grew up with four gran-- and my wife's parents, although they're Americanized, but they also -- their parents came from the Old Country, so to speak. So, culturally and traditionally, they heard Yiddish, they ate the food, they lived the life, they lived the neuroses. They were right in the mix. And, at one point, we thought that we -- it's crazy, but I guess I could talk about this. I have a sister, as I said. She has two daughters. Same age as my two daughters. And they all grew up with their grandparents, on both 47:00sides. And -- how do I say this respectfully? No one's going to wind up marrying a Jewish man. Actually, three out of four already haven't. My youngest daughter is still single, but living with a man, and he's not Jewish. So, in a way, it's kind of weird for me, for us, that there was almost maybe a back-- I don't know if it's a back-- you're going to fall in love, you can't really figure it out unless you arrange and make a shidekh [arranged marriage], as they call it -- that no one's going to wind up with a Jewish guy. And I'm not religious. After my kids were bat mitzvahed, I dropped out of the temple. So, the important thing 48:00for us is that we're loving families, and we are. And what more can you ask than have loving kids and loving parents. And they still have a grandfather on one side -- a great-grandfather on one side, I'm talking about the great-grandchildren, and my mother on the other side. So, I don't know, I think I'm off on a tangent somewhere.

CW:No, it makes sense.

ML:No? Is that good?

CW:Yeah, yeah.

ML:Okay.

CW:I want to ask about the food for a second.

ML:Sure. (laughter) Oh, God.

CW:So, what are your mother's -- I'm assuming she was cooking at home -- the favorite recipes?

ML:So, number one, there were no recipes. The recipes were, Hey, I'm going to grab a little -- then I'm going to grab that. And everybody always gravitated to my parents' apartment. And even though it was small, I don't know, she fed forty 49:00people at a time. How is that even possible? I don't know. She would make gefilte fish and people would come from all over. And by scratch. I couldn't even pretend to tell you how, except I think it starts with pike, like a pike fish. And next thing you know, there would be this amazing gefilte fish that people raved about. And they said, Nobody makes gefilte fish like Zoshe, okay? I have a cousin who's a surgeon in Manhattan now, through marriage. He would come from Manhattan. He would drive into Brighton just so he could get some gefilte fish from my mother. So, that was one of her specialties. She made something called tshulnt [Shabbos dish usually of meat, potatoes, and beans]. You ever hear of it?

CW:Can you describe it, please?

ML:Yeah. So, tshulnt was this -- ingredients of meat and potatoes and vegetables 50:00with a large dose of fat. (laughs) I don't know where -- but just fat, and it just -- we'd cook -- and she would put it in the oven. I think she left it there for a month. (laughter) And it was one of those dishes, when it came out, if you took two spoons, you were full for a week. And you could feel your arteries closing (laughs) as you ate this. But this was wonderful. You have a drink, you eat a tshulnt, you got a gefilte fish. And what could be better than that? She actually also made her own chopped liver, where she had what they called a hakmeser [chopping knife]. You know a hakmeser? And a bowl. And she'd put these in, and she would -- and she did all this until a few years ago, when physically she just didn't have the strength to do it. And, as I said earlier, there was 51:00always -- that was special. But there was always three chickens and a brisket (laughs) hanging out, 'cause you never know. And food was always so important. "Eat!" "Ma, I just ate." "Eat, have a hamburger for dessert. Eat, eat, eat, I got a" -- very important.

CW:And (laughter) any other food stories?

ML:Maybe. Oh, apple cake. To this day, she makes the best apple cake of all time. Really, it's renowned. I'm sorry that I didn't have the brains to go into the food business with her producing stuff and me distributing it. But she was famous for her apple cake.

CW:What is it like?

ML:It's like thick crust on top and it's sugary, it's great. It's great.

CW:What about Yiddish? Did you ever use it after you left home?

ML:Yeah, actually my wife, whose parents I said are American but European background, we understand it -- farshteyst alts, ken redn a bisl [understand everything, can speak a little]. So, we would speak Yiddish in the car when we didn't want the kids to understand what we were talking about. But other than that, unless my sister was around, as a goof, we would speak in Yiddish, and especially when our kids were around, as well. But other than that, no, we really didn't speak it.

CW:And your kids don't speak it?

ML:No.

CW:Yeah.

ML:No.

CW:I mean, it's interesting about Yiddish being a goof. What does Yiddish represent for you now?

ML:The language?

CW:Um-hm.

ML:Kind of like a dying breed. Represents my past. A bit of my present still 53:00because my mother's still alive. I speak to my mother, it's pretty much in English. And it's just a way into the past, my childhood, which was great. But it's over, and --

CW:I forgot to ask you about your father singing. You said he sang Yiddish songs. Can you tell me about that?

ML:He did. He sang one song in particular that I just call "Oyfn pripetshik, brent a fayerl [On the hearth, burns a little fire]." Do you know it?

CW:Um-hm.

ML:You do? So, he used to sing that. He sang, "My yidishe mame [My Jewish mother]." Pretty emotional. And he also sang some Tom Jones and stuff, (laughs) 54:00but not in Yiddish.

CW:Yeah. When would he sing?

ML:But he loved music and he loved to party. He was just a great partier. He worked super hard, early in the morning till late at night. But when it came to an affair -- they didn't go out much. Wasn't like today, where, "What are you doing?" "We're going to dinner, we're" -- never. They never went out. Maybe on a Sunday, they -- to the Chinese restaurant. But as up-to-date as my daughter's bat m-- my youngest daughter is thirty-one now. So, at her bat mitzvah, which was -- he was rockin'. He was rockin'. We got it all on tape. He loved to hang with my friends. They all loved him. Have a couple of drinks, get on the dance floor. He was a character. He was definitely a character.

CW:Yeah. What did you learn from him?

ML:Just to do the right thing and to be respectful. And remember where you came from. And be helpful if you can, and loving. I mean, he was a man that -- and family was very important, obviously, from where he came from. But still, in many of the families, even from Holocaust survivors, you didn't feel the warmth. Sometimes, it went the other way with some of the Holocaust survivors. But my house was so open and warm that people gravitated to it. They did. And it was just no matter who you are, "Yeah, you want a steak? You want a chicken? You want a thing? Come in, we love everybody." And maybe that's one of the reasons 56:00that my daughters and my sister's daughters felt that, Hey, it's okay. Everything is cool. We fell in love with certain people, and whether they're Jewish or they're not shouldn't matter, so --

CW:When you look at your daughters and grandchildren, what do you see as different about their Jewish identity in connection to Jewishness?

ML:Well, for my older daughter, I mean, she's almost -- I would define her as a Jewish Buddhist, Jew-Bu. Spiritual. Loves -- she is very cool. Took me a while to embrace her and Matthew's spirituality. But they're real, you know what I mean? They're in here, (taps chest) as I say. My daughter went away from the 57:00Jewish traditional, although in the last couple of years, she started teaching yoga at the Jewish -- I don't know what it's called.

CW:The center?

ML:The synagogue, and incorporated part of the Torah in her yoga presentation, which I thought was really interesting. My grandkids celebrate every holiday, which is not a bad thing. They come to us for Thanksgiving and Hanukkah, and they go to Matthew's family, who do Christmas and the tree. And I said, In the end, what do you want out of life? But you want healthy, happy, loving families, and that's what we have.

CW:I want to talk about the movie for a second, if that's okay.

ML:Sure.

CW:"The Boys of 2nd Street Park." So, can you tell what that movie is and how it 58:00came to be?

ML:Yeah. So, a friend of mine whose name is Dan Klores owned a very successful PR firm in Manhattan and represented, at one point, everyone from Paul Simon and Howard Stern to -- I mean, I was kind of blown away by his success. And we knew each other. We were friendly, but we weren't close friends. And everybody in the park knew each other. You played ball, you fought, you hung out. We knew each other. And it's probably fifteen years now. We went and had lunch. Actually, it was me, my friend Frank Bass, who's one of the stars in the movie. Shout out to Frank. (laughs) We had lunch with Danny, and we started talking about the guys. Whatever happened to this guy, whatever happened to Steve, whatever happened to Bernie, what happened to -- and he looked at me and he goes, "I'm going to find the guys, and I'm going to tell the story." I go, "Yeah, right." I said, "You're 59:00going to go back to the Hamptons this weekend and you're going to hang out with your friends in there." Says, "No, I'm going to tell the story." And with another guy from the neighborhood who became very successful in the advertising industry -- his name is Ron Berger, shout out to Ron -- the two of them went out on a two-year mission. And I think they found thirty guys, and obviously was all over the country. And they cut it down to -- they did I don't know how many hours of actual footage, and they cut it down to nine guys, but five main guys. I'm not one of the main characters in it, although the Levine family has a nice part of it. And they put together this documentary about growing up in Brighton Beach, about a bunch of guys who grow up playing basketball together. But it's 60:00not about basketball. It's about life, and the roller coaster. The good, the bad, and the ugly of life. And it's pretty cool. We went to the Sundance Film Festival. Showtime bought it. And I think it's on Showtime every December, for whatever reason. I don't know why. It runs all through December. And it was cool, because the first time we saw the actual movie was the first time I had seen these guys in many years. Danny invited everyone to the Hamptons, and we sat in the basement. The screening was gonna be at the theater later that night. But he wanted to show it to us first. And I sat with all the guys and their families, and we heard about the -- I had heard bits and pieces of stories, but I -- to be with the guys and then to hear the whole story, we sat like babies crying, hugging each other. And that night was the screening at Dan's house, in 61:00the Hamptons. And there was a party of about -- he had maybe two hundred people. And it was a who's who of the Hamptons. And it was just great. And people were coming over to my father. One guy was Jeff Zucker, who is now president of -- I don't know, he was president of NBC. I think he's CNBC now. Matt Lauer was there. It was just very cool. Lot of celebrities. But my father was the celebrity at that night. And they went over to him and they were hugging him. And they go, "Ziggy, you stole the movie." And my father goes, "Who is it? Who is this guy? Where's the vodka? (laughs) I need a drink." 'Cause originally, when they brought the film crew up to Brighton, they said, We don't want you to talk about the concentration camps. This is not about the concentration camps. Ziggy, do you understand? It's not about the camps. It's about Brighton and the 62:00boys, and you went to see 'em play ball, and how growing up was. He goes, "I got it." Camera starts, (claps) he's in Auschwitz, and there were five crew people up there, and each one broke down. And afterwards, Danny called me and he goes, "I don't think the Levines are getting into the movie." I go, "Why not?" He goes, "I told your father not to talk about the camps." So, a few weeks later, when the editing started and they showed it to all these Hollywood kind of people, executives, whatever, said, His part is so compelling. You need to get him in the movie. And as you know, you saw the movie, it's very cool how it was edited and they brought in the Levine family. And it was great.

CW:Yeah. Do you have that footage of his interview? Did you get a copy of that?

ML:The movie? "The Boys of 2nd Street Park"?

CW:I mean his interview, though. Did you get that?

ML:In the movie, you mean?

CW:Well, I mean for the movie. Did you get a copy of that?

ML:I have the movie.

CW:Yeah.

ML:Not only do I have the movie, it became almost a cult thing after the -- we got copies. That actually, with Frank Bass and myself, we actually went around and showed the movie and did Q&As. And then I would have parties, "The Boys of 2nd Street Park" parties, for neighbors to show 'em this thing and discuss things. And before they saw the movie, they thought it was some ridiculous -- and they said, Well, what are we doing here? I said, "Don't worry, I brought in food and we'll have some drinks, and then I'm going to show you a movie. If you don't like it, you can leave." And once I put it on and they got into it, it was so compelling that they sat there for ninety minutes. And then, we did a Q&A, 64:00which was cool.

CW:Do you feel like that really reflects your experience, too? I mean, that movie?

ML:I'm going to say yes and no. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. There's certain parts where I broke away from certain people because it got a little bit out of control. Drugs were very big in those days. But I broke away from some of the stuff that went on. But some people had very difficult times. In the movie, I mean, it's not a secret, one of my friends was murdered by the mob because he had wired himself. Well, it was pretty crazy. It was pretty intense.

CW:Yeah. Are there any other stories about your parents or about the boys that 65:00you want to tell?

ML:Probably -- none that I can think of right off the top of my head.

CW:When you think about that generation, do you -- looking back, do you see any patterns about children of survivors and children of American parents?

ML:That's a really good question. That's a great question. I've thought about it often, because I've seen a lot of the children of the Holocaust survivors that I knew and grew up with. Their lives became very screwed up. Me, I'm a little wacky, but did pretty good. My sister, the same. But a lot of them had very screwed up lives, and I used to think it was as a result of being children of Holocaust survivors. But then, when you look at the big picture of life, my 66:00other friends were as screwed up as the children of the Holocaust survivors. So, were we more neurotic? Were we more fearful? Were we more successful? Were we more driven? I don't know. I don't know, because I look at other friends, and as I said, their paths were also very varied and diversified. And some did well, and some didn't.

CW:And for you, personally, how has that impacted you, your identity?

ML:It's interesting. When I moved out of Philly, it was for a job -- I'm sorry, when I moved out of New York to Philly, it was for a job. And I had just had a baby, my yoga baby, and we just bought a house. And after a few months, Jackie, 67:00my wife, and I went to New York to see a show or something. I said, "Let's stop by" -- it was a company out of New York. And when I went upstairs to say hello to them, and I was wearing my new suit I had just bought, and a new let out raccoon coat for my wife, they called me in and they fired me, just right on the spot. No warning, no nothing. They fired me. They were making a change. And I walked out of the office and Jackie said, "Well, how did it go?" I said, "They just fired me." She goes, "Stop it." I said, "No, I'm not kidding. They just fired me." And the reason I'm bringing it up is that we were crying and, Oh, I just got fired, I just bought a house, I had no money. And I went to see my father. And he didn't have much money or anything. But I was crying, like a baby. He goes, "Why are you crying?" I said, "Dad, I just moved to Philly. I 68:00just bought a house. I have a little baby. I don't have a -- I just got fired." He goes, "This is America. Is that the only job? Go find another job. You're a smart boy." He goes, "You're not going into the concentration camps. Go find a job. Don't cry." So, it was great, because he had a way of putting things in basic. It was like, boom, "What are you crying about? Tomorrow, go find another job." And it worked out. So, the lesson was -- and he had, like I said, he never had any fear. The fear came from the other side, from my mother's side. To this day, it still does. But with him, nah, you wanted to go to war with him. He wasn't letting anything happen.

CW:Well, I asked you what you learned from them. What do you think your kids have learned from them? Did they get --

ML:It's -- tough question. Tough question. I think they learned probably more from me directly, but even with all of my -- I'm going to call it preaching to them, that generation went off to find their own paths more. So, I guess they absorbed it, but in the end, it was like, Dad, you have to understand, you've given us the freedom to do what we want. You've always told us find your own -- and they did. And I guess for me and Jackie, it was like, okay, we need to just expand our thinking a little bit. And I use the term surrender to what they want 70:00to do, and just hope that they create a happy and healthy life for themselves. We're there for them. Somebody once told me raising kids, it's like a kite. It's like having a kite, going, flying a kite. You let the kite go up in the air, okay? And it goes up, and then you give it a little more slack and it goes up a little bit further. Keep giving it more rope. And then, it gets tangled in a tree one day. And then, you got to either figure out, is that kite going to be able to get out of that tree? Or you're going to have to cut the cord. And it's kind of like with kids. You give them the slack and they go up. Does that make sense?

CW:Yeah.

ML:Okay.

CW:Yes. Well, I want to close with a couple questions that we ask everyone.

ML:Okay.

CW:Do you have a favorite Yiddish phrase or song?

ML:A favorite Yiddish phrase. Kh'hob dikh lib [I love you], which my father and mother used to say all the time. But my father used to look at the girls -- remember, he's got four granddaughters, and he used to say to them, "Makh glakh di breymelakh [Make your eyebrows match]."

CW:Can you explain what those two mean?

ML:"Makh glakh di breymelakh" means "make your eyebrows" -- fix your eyebrows. I don't know why he said it, but to this day, if the girls all get together, they look at each other and go, Makh glakh di breymelakh. And "kh'hob dikh lib" means "I love you." And that was his message to them. And it was really my mother's message, too. But that's what stands out.

CW:What is it -- is it different in Yiddish than in English for you? "Ikh hob dikh lib," that -- what's different in that for you?

ML:It is, it is, it is. It's kind of interesting. In today's terminology in 72:00English, it's almost like, I love you. I love you. It's, like, "Love" -- oh, it's, like, Have a tuna sandwich. Meet me, like, I love you. And it's just thrown out. But I felt that "kh'hob dikh lib," or the Jewish part, was more from in here (taps chest). It's hard to describe, but it came from here rather than just, What do you mean you love him, you love her, you love every-- you don't love everybody. So, yeah, that's the difference to me, and maybe 'cause as a kid, it was just -- and even to this day, I mean, my mother will -- when I speak to my mother, "Kh'hob dikh lib." She wants to know if it's cold, if I wore a sweater that day outside. So, it hasn't changed too much.

CW:Yeah. Do you have an eytse, advice for the coming -- maybe you think about 73:00your grandkids, great grandkids, when they --

ML:So, my grandkids, who I love, one was just six, one is -- my grandson's going to be ten. And one day, I'm hopefully -- I'll be able to sit down with them, 'cause they're a little bit young now, and explain to them where their -- my parents came from and how we all got to where we are. Right now, my advice is try your best and have fun. Just have a good time. Try not to put too much pressure on yourself, which -- they're young, they're young. And with my kids, the same way. Just enjoy your thing, make the best of it. And life is not easy. 74:00It's a roller-coaster. Embrace the good times and don't get yourself crazy. There's always bad stuff. Every time you think you can hit the fastball, they throw you a curveball. Then you got to adjust to the curveball. You'd better make sure you do, otherwise you're going to strike out. And that's my advice. That's 'cause I'm a Mets fan. (laughter) We've been striking out for a lot, but I think we're going to have a good year. (laughter) Okay.

CW:Well, a groysn dank [thank you very much].

ML:Thank you.

CW:Thank you very much for taking the time.

[END OF INTERVIEW]