BUNNY HOFFINGER ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney, and today is December 28th, 2015. I'm here in New York City with Bunny Hoffinger, and --

BUNNY HOFFINGER: Good, you used Bunny.

CW:-- (laughs) and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

BH:Yes, absolutely.

CW:Thanks. So, to start, where did your family come from?

BH:My father came from [Strilyshcha?], Austria-Hungary. My mother was born on the Lower East Side on the Fourth of July, 1898. Interestingly, (laughs) maybe oddly, they were first cousins. They didn't know each other until my father came here. At any rate, his mother and my mother's father were sister and brother. 1:00But, of course, my mother never knew them in Europe.

CW:And what do you know about your father's life before coming to America?

BH:Well, it's very interesting, 'cause apparently, they were fairly well off. They had a soda factory, which is what I was always told. He had a brother who came here before he did. That was Avrom Hesh, my father's oldest brother. I never really understood -- he had a good life in [Strilyshcha?], other than it was Austria-Hungary, and with all of what it was going on. I was never really sure of why -- he didn't come here because of poverty. So, it was rather interesting. I think, just to have a different and better life. And then, after he came, a younger brother came, my uncle, Saul.

CW:And did you know anything else about that soda factory, or life there?

BH:No, other than that's what it was. It was fairly successful. He had a number of other brothers and sisters. He used to like to ride bareback, so they had at least one horse. It seemed that he had a pretty good time there. I never heard -- sometimes, I feel bad now that perhaps I should have questioned him more. But it seemed that it was a fairly good life.

CW:And when did he come here?

BH:He came here when he was about seventeen. He came here alone. And that's interesting. I was recently speaking to my sister -- my brother died two years ago, he was the oldest -- trying to remember some ideas of how much she heard from him about -- I'm not even sure of what he did when he came here when he was that young. He apparently stayed with my mother's family on and off on the Lower East Side. And then, I don't know at what point he started to (laughs) want very 3:00much to be a writer. He wrote a few articles for the "Tog," "The Day." I have a picture of him, which I can't find, where he was very artistic looking, with a big, floppy black scarf or something, and black hat tilted to the side. Maybe he was twenty. And, as I said, he used to hang out. He had a lot of friends who were theater and all of that, and writers. But he didn't really make it as a writer. He'd also work as a waiter -- somewhat. One of the interesting things -- see, my father was a very, very early Zionist. Orthodox and Zionist. And I'm not sure who he was working for as a volunteer or what, but it was to go to Orthodox synagogues on the Lower East Side and all, and talk about Zionism and Palestine. He couldn't get anywhere at all. He said there were times when they really -- they threw him out, refused to hear anything about Zionism. He was in the First 4:00World War here, and he didn't go overseas because he managed not to, because he said his brothers were fighting on the other si-- a lot of this makes me teary, it's funny. He said his brothers were fighting on the other side. So, they allowed him not to go overseas. He was in Georgia mostly, and all. And when the war was over, my parents were engaged. He really wanted to go, I think it was with Wingate, to Palestine, to fight the Turks, 'cause that was his real desire. But because they were engaged, (laughs) my mother said no. So, interestingly, I could have been an early Israeli. So, he didn't get to go until much later, when we were able to send him to Israel, after my mother died. She never got there. So --

CW:Do you know how he came to become Zionist? How was he introduced to that?

BH:Nope, he just was from a very young age. I don't know how much of it he got in [Strilyshcha?], I don't -- 'cause he studied there and all. But I don't know. I never really asked him how he came to it. But he was very -- my father was also very literate, very interested in literature. Did a lot of reading in Yiddish. I mean, he talked about seeing Shakespeare with -- in English, but with -- who was the great Yiddish actor who did Shakespeare on the --

CW:Buloff?

BH:-- on our stage?

CW:Buloff, was it?

BH:No, no, not Buloff. I can't remember. But at any rate, so I don't know if he managed to get early reading or whatever it was, as a very young man. But that was very much --

CW:Did he have a traditional education with --

BH:No. Well, a kheyder [traditional religious school]. No.

CW:And yeshiva and Orthodox background?

BH:My mother?

CW:Your father, before he --

BH:My father came from an Orthodox, yeah, Orthodox background and continued through it. We were Orthodox -- I mean, my father davened every day. We always had Friday night where we sang a lot of zemirot [Shabbos hymns sung at the table]. I did go to a Conservative synagogue in Brooklyn, to Hebrew school and all of that. And a lot of it had to do -- of course, Young Israel, which was the Orthodox, was too far to walk. So, on Shabbos, it was much too long a walk. So, we only went to their Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. But no, I had a full Jewish education, but we didn't go to yeshiva, and --

CW:And now what about --

BH:-- my brother didn't.

CW:-- what about your mother's background?

BH:My mother's background was Orthodox. Lived on the Lower East Side. She had -- well, she had more. She had two brothers who lived and three sisters. Two 7:00brothers died, and she would talk very sadly -- they died quite young. One may have been twelve, one was eight or nine. Her parents were very observant. Think my grandfather had -- I think a grocery store or something for a while. I mean, they never had any money. They lived on the Lower East Side with an outhouse bathroom, (laughs) all of that.

CW:Do you know where their -- her family came from, her --

BH:Same place. And I'm not sure about my grandmother. Because my grandfather, of course, came also from [Strilyshcha?], since he and my father's mother were sister and brother. My grandmother must have come from nearby, from the same area. But that's interesting. I don't really remember. Obviously, my uncle came here -- my grandfather came here first, as was always done in those days. My grandmother then followed with my uncle, Sam. I'm not sure whether she might 8:00have been pregnant with my mother. I think not too short afterwards was my mother born, on the Fourth of July, in 1898. So, I've always had this strange feeling, but I don't know it for sure.

CW:And so, where did you grow up?

BH:I grew up in Brooklyn, probably before -- but when I was very young. But once I was four or five, we moved to (laughs) -- I'm laughing, you'll know in a minute why -- to Lincoln Place and Franklin Avenue, just off Eastern Parkway. My mother's -- I barely knew my grandfather. I think I was three or four when he died. I have not too much memory, but they lived on Eastern Parkway, just a short distance from where we did. No, I'm laughing because our twenty-six-year-old granddaughter has just taken an apartment about three blocks away from where I grew up. It was right near the Botanic Gardens, Brooklyn Museum. The library was not built until much later. So, that was where I grew up.

CW:And what was the neighborhood like when you were growing up?

BH:The block I lived on -- not too many Jews until there were some German refugees who came maybe '38, '39. There was a Greek family in the next house. There were a lot of Irish on the next block, and the block I lived on. The street was sort of -- also had the back entrance to my grandmother's house, my grandfather's, and some others. There were more Jews on Eastern Parkway. Was much more Jewish than, actually, what -- we were just around the corner. There were maybe two, maybe three Jewish families in the building, but no Jewish children my age, as a matter of fact.

CW:And can you describe what your home looked like?

BH:What it looked like? Well, first of all, I have to tell you, my mother was a -- 10:00sewed everything. She should have been a designer. That's another thing I'll talk about at some point, because she sewed everything. We had three bedrooms. My sister and I always shared a bedroom and a bed, (laughs) a large bed. My brother had his room, and there was a kitchen. And the living room had a table along the side that pulled out for holiday meals and for all of that. And then, beyond that, was my parents' bedroom, which looked out on -- there were fire escapes, as well, but looked out on a -- brownstone gardens. So, it was very nice. Sometimes we'd sit on the fire escape (laughs) and read and look out. No, it was furnished very nicely, although we had no money. But my mother sewed a lot of stuff, because she had worked in factories, learned really, to sew. She 11:00really should have been a designer. She made her own patterns for us and stuff.

CW:So, she worked in the Garment District, or --

BH:No, not once she got married. No, but when she was young and growing up, she worked in different factories. Her favorite job -- I was just talking to one of my daughters about it. She got a job at John Wanamaker, which was a very, very famous department store on the Lower East Side at the time. And she was a sort of page girl, and she wore -- which she loved -- a sailor outfit: a pleated skirt and a little sailor top. And she would go around, I think, either taking money and bringing it -- information. She loved that job because of the way she looked and the way it was. But she couldn't work on Shabbos. So, she would make excuses. Well, after a while, they just wouldn't accept it. And she often talked about that job, 'cause after that, it was factories.

CW:And what was it like for you to grow up in that neighborhood with [UNCLEAR]?

BH:That neighborhood to me was great. I loved it, 'cause I drew at a very young age. So, we always went to the park, went to the museum. It was free then, luckily. I'd go to the museum with a friend of mine, almost every Sunday after Hebrew school and after -- maybe at my grandmother's somewhat. The library did not exist. It was a big field where all the boys from the elementary school played stickball. And my elementary school was three or four blocks away, which was great. I thought it was a great neighborhood to grow up in, because there were all those things. I had my aunts and uncles, who -- before they married, they all lived on Eastern Parkway, and they were very close. And my mother was 13:00very close there. She spent a lot of time helping my grandmother, helped take care of her later. So, it was fine. I was lucky. I lived in a very happy house. I really did. My sister and I used to fight somewhat, but it was nothing. But my brother was great. He was the older one. He was the oldest. My sister is five years older than I am. My brother was about eleven years older than I.

CW:Now, did you, when you look back, did you have a favorite yontef [holiday] that you would celebrate?

BH:A favorite yontef. That's an interesting question. Well, I thought it never rained on Pesach. So, I guess that was my favorite, because the dairy dishes were Fiestaware, and every dish was a different bright color, which was wonderful. We always had four sets of everything. We had milkhik, fleyshik, and Pesach, we also had all of that. I think Pesach, also -- my mother was a 14:00wonderful cook and baker, and she'd make terrific sponge cakes and make them into strawberry shortcakes, (laughs) which -- she supplied one friend in the building, a neighbor who was Jewish, and my aunts. So, I think, in a way, that was. It seemed to me that it just was always sunny. But I think I liked all of the holidays. I mean, they all had a lot to do with going to shul with the family, having great meals. There was all of that. I did say prayers every morning. I said moyde-ani [first words of Jewish prayer recited upon awakening] every morning. I prayed every night. My brother, of course -- after he got married, I'm not sure, but he always -- they all laid tfillin. My father, every morning, davened. So, it was all part of my upbringing, and a part of --

CW:What was one of your mom's specialties that she would cook?

BH:Cook or bake? Oh, God, everything. She was a wonderful baker. As I said, (laughs) the strawberry shortcakes, but rugelach, everything. She cooked everything. I couldn't even give you a favorite. She was just a wonderful -- and my father was always very interested, and he used to like to cook on Sunday. And I think this is interesting: Sunday was kind of his day -- and he invented, he created food. He really should have been a chef. I mean, it's another story. So, he would create wonderful things on Sunday. And interestingly, how life is different, I remember my mother telling me not to tell anyone that my father cooked. Wasn't masculine. We're talking about in the '30s and early '40s. Interesting.

CW:And you mentioned going to shul. Where was the shul?

BH:Well, that was where -- I always went to the same shul where my Hebrew school was. It was about -- I'd say about a six-block walk along Eastern Parkway. And the rabbi was very well known. Israel Levinthal was his name. He was a wonderful speaker, and presumably people came from all over the borough to hear him. There was a junior congregation, a separate junior congregation. And that's where I would go. Very often, my friend Goldie Wexler, I'd pick her up on wherever she lived, some other place on the way -- and, it was always -- yeah, it was fun to me. And then, afterwards -- well, in the afternoon, we'd go to the movies with some -- (laughs) Goldie was more Orthodox. I don't think she could go to the movies. But we did. My father would not travel on Shabbos. We did, and I'm not 17:00sure how he felt about it. But, my mother and my sister and I would go to downtown Brooklyn, which had all these wonderful department stores. We'd do that on Saturday. But I'd always go to shul. My mother didn't go that much. My mother never learned to daven, never learned Hebrew. She was a girl on the Lower East Side, and none of her sisters -- also wasn't the way, but -- and I had a good time in Hebrew school.

CW:And what were the languages you heard growing up?

BH:The only ones I heard were Yiddish and English. I'm assuming that my grandmothers -- and maybe somebody spoke Polish, or -- I never heard anything, and I don't think my father -- I never heard him speak anything but Yiddish and English. That's an interesting question. I never thought about it. He came from Austria-Hungary, with the Pale of Settlement, which was probably more Polish 18:00than Austrian. He certainly didn't speak German. I don't know. No, never heard anything other than --

CW:And did they speak Yiddish to you?

BH:Oh, yeah, to all of us. We were all fluent in Yiddish, yeah. No, everybody spoke English, everybody spoke Yiddish. Yeah.

CW:And what aspects of Yiddish culture were there in the home? Music? Literature?

BH:Music, literature. And then, as I started to say, by the time I was eight, started going to Unser Camp and Kinderwelt, which was loaded with it. At eight, I don't think I went to Yiddish theater, but it was always a very big part of my fa-- we never had any money, but it was a very big part of my father's love, as well -- was Yiddish theater, Yiddish writers, all of that. It was a very big 19:00part of my life, all of this Yiddishkayt. My uncles -- everybody was -- it was the way it was.

CW:Do you remember going to the theaters?

BH:Yeah.

CW:Can you describe --

BH:Yes.

CW:-- that?

BH:It's hard to describe. I understood Yiddish and all, and I also loved the theater. I have a vague memory of being very young and going somewhere. And I didn't know the name of the theater, but somehow, they -- at intermission, I guess, they sold ices or ice cream or something, and I thought it was the name of the play. (laughs) But it's a very far off memory, so I couldn't even tell you much about it. But my father loved the theater. It was very much even more than my mother, I think 'cause he wanted to be a writer.

CW:So, can you describe -- just explain first what Unser Camp was?

BH:Oh, what was Unser Camp? It was the best place in the world. Unser Camp was a camp of the Farband, Labor Zionist. My father started working summers. My father, he had a grocery store. I have a picture of it somewhere. He had a grocery store for a while, but it failed. It didn't work well. And he started working for my mother's brother, my uncle, Sam, who had the largest fur dyeing company, apparently, in the United States. It was work my father hated, but it enabled him, because it was my uncle, to take the summers off, which were very important. So, before even Unser Camp, he went to -- he was at Boiberik for -- which was another, okay -- he was at Boiberik for a year or so, and with my brother as a waiter, Boiberik one or two summers. He mentioned some others and I can't remember. But I remember when I was eight or maybe -- I was much younger. 21:00I just remembered this. Apparently, he worked in Unser Camp and my mother and -- was there before I was born, 'cause my mother told a story of being pregnant with me and on the swings, and people who knew she was pregnant said that -- Don't do that, don't swing. And then, the next year, we were back again. I was a baby in a carriage, and there was a horse named Yosel. And I loved Yosel, and apparently Yosel loved me, because they'd find his head in my carriage, and (laughs) I would pet him. So, that was before. Then, there was a period of time -- and I'm not sure where my father -- maybe that was when he went to Boiberik and to Anawana. There was a Camp Anawana or something. But then, when I was eight, I think, he began going to Unser Camp. Maybe skipped a year, again, where he went to Boiberik, and then we were pretty much there, one other summer when I 22:00was sixteen, we were at another camp in Massachusetts. But Unser Camp and Kinderwelt, it was just wonderful. Everybody was all Yiddish-speaking. Full of Yiddish actors, musicians. They put on shows all the time. There were campfires. (sings) "Arim dem fayer, mir zingn lider [Around the fire, we sing songs]." So, there was always that. Zvee Scooler, in fact, used to run those campfires a lot, I remember. He was very dashing. He always wore an ascot with his shirt. (laughs) And we just so looked forward -- my mother, of course, looked forward to it because she didn't -- her meals were there, and she didn't have to take -- she took care of my grandmother a lot, and my sister and brother, once they were old enough, they worked as waiter and waitresses, as I did later on. It was just a great place. I'd always have loads of friends, and it was all -- yes, every -- Yiddish-speaking.

CW:So, can you describe a typical day?

BH:Pardon me?

CW:A typical day at the camp?

BH:Well, for me, because I didn't go to Kinderwelt, I didn't stay -- sleep there. I somehow -- I don't know, it was rather foolish. Well, was I'd get up, have breakfast, (laughs) which was always enormous and great. My father planned all the meals, did all the buying of food, took care of everything in the kitchen and dining room. And I would always make friends. We'd either go play some tennis -- there was a basketball court, and there was a handball court. We'd play around there. For years, they had a pool. You'd walk a lot of distance, which was absolutely great, downhill to the pool. And there was the casino, which was wonderful. Not only were there shows, there was always dancing. There were -- and a lot of the dancers, we'd always do horas and Russian chairs and troika, and all of that, in addition to -- a band would play 24:00regular music. I'd go to Kinderwelt during the day very often, work in arts and crafts and things like that. For some stupid reason, (laughs) I never really wanted to stay in a bunk. I had loads of friends -- did, but I always had friends who came to Unser Camp, as well, and --

CW:You stayed on the family side?

BH:Yeah. And I don't know, it was just -- was a great -- but I can't tell you, just a great time. After the war, the Farband brought as many young people over as they could. And there were a lot of people with the tattoos, a lot of young men. I don't remember any young women -- a number of young men coming. And I remember this and it really upset me. It was for Labor Day, and we decorated the dining room. And this friend and I were hanging decorations around the dining 25:00room. And along came a few of these guys whom I knew. And one said -- and we always spoke Yiddish. And he said, "Vi geysti? Vos tisti? [How's it going? What are you up to?]" or something. And my Yiddish was not good. I said, "M'geyen zikh hengn [We're going to hang ourselves]." That was terrible, and he looked particularly -- I used to do a waltz with him. He looked very surprised, and I realized what a terrible -- I tried to say, "We're hanging things." Anyway, nothing came of it, but it's something that has stayed with me, 'cause, yes, I spoke Yiddish fluently, but everybody can make a mistake in English, as well. So, they did bring a number of orphaned young people, 'cause everybody was very much aware there of the Holocaust. There were lots of people -- lost people. A 26:00lot of the people we knew lost sons in the war, guys I knew. So, the life -- yeah, life was very Jewish. Very Jewish-American. I bet as much -- I guess as much as could be.

CW:Was your dad and -- your father in touch with anyone in Europe during the war?

BH:There was nobody left. He tried. I played the violin for a while, and I remember this, and I decided I really didn't want to -- it was not for me anymore. We decided to send it to Israel. And he put a letter in, giving names, asking if anybody found -- nobody, no. It was his mother, father, a sister with her husband and children, another brother, and maybe another sister. We heard early on -- he heard somehow that his father had died. Because I remember coming 27:00home from school, and my father was sitting on the ground -- in the living room, was sitting on the floor. And he'd heard that his father -- but I think his father had died. It was early on.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, you were talking about remembering the refugees coming over and how you knew. Your father, at some point, found out his father --

BH:Nothing.

CW:-- had died.

BH:Nothing. Wiped -- they were obviously murdered, and no memory -- as did his two brothers. Everybody tried to find out. Nothing, yeah.

CW:What newspaper or news did you have in the home, do you remember?

BH:Well, my father always read the "Tog" and the "Forverts." We read, for a while, the "Daily News," and my father switched off that. And then, basically, the "Mirror." And not regularly, but "The New York Times." But not on that much 28:00of a regular basis. My father basically read his Yiddish newspapers all the time.

CW:Do you remember listening to the radio? Did you have a radio at home?

BH:Yes, of course, listening to WEVD. And every Sunday morning, (laughs) listening -- well, with Zvee Scooler, a lot on that. And, yes, and (laughs) one of the programs I remember very well was called "Tsures b'laytn [People's problems]." (laughs) And a lot of sad stories. And they were sad stories, really, about husbands who disappeared on wives, and a lot of that. But that, yeah, every Sunday morning, we listened, yeah.

CW:So, back to camp. You said there were plays in the casino, right?

BH:Well, were there always? There was always -- and first of all, there was 29:00always a campfire, which sometimes actually was indoors. They did some sort of thing -- with singing, all sorts of singing, Yiddish songs, a lot of that. And for a number of years, Zvee Scooler was there, and he was in charge of that. But there were plays. They put on plays with all of the famous Yiddish writers. Every year, there was always a staff of Yiddish actors and actresses. In fact, as Jack mentioned, Leon Liebgold, and I think [Fanya Rubinoff?] was his wife. They had been in the "The Dybbuk," in the movie. They were there at least one summer, if not more. There would be a number of others. Wolfe Barzell, who was an actor, was there all summer for a number of years. An actor. In fact, Manny Azenberg, who is a famous producer of all of Neil Simon's plays -- Manny was 30:00Wolfe's nephew, and I'm sure he had a big influence on -- Wolfe was an absolutely great guy. He was just terrific. There'd always be visiting actors. Maurice Schwartz came, but he did not act in any of Unser Camp's plays. They -- really not -- he would come and stay a week with his wife. And I do remember he had a waiter -- Paul Levitt, I remember, who was absolutely adorable. I had a crush on him. Paul Levitt, who was totally fluent in Yiddish -- and Maurice Schwartz was so taken with him that he then put him in one of his plays on Second Avenue, which we used to go to see all the time. And I can't remember which play it was. But, as I say, Schwartz would come, but he was not part of -- but they had absolutely -- I'm forgetting some of them, but there was always an acting troupe, and there were some who managed to come out after the war and who came and acted. So, there was always Saturday night, and I remember somebody 31:00would come around in the dining room, giving out tickets far hayntikn show [for this week's show] -- tickets, and that was -- Saturday night was big. Friday night was an Oneg Shabbat of some sort. Was, I think, also in the casino. And also, midweek, there was something, and I'm not sure of how much. In fact, one story -- I used to go to the plays when I was quite young, and apparently, I fell asleep once in the front row with a lollipop. And Leon Liebgold afterwards (laughs) said to me it was very hard for him to act, 'cause I was sleeping and the lollipop went back and forth and back and forth, and he was trying to act. It was just a great place to -- heads of the Farband would come, of course, and spend time. And there was always a manager. My father managed the kitchen and dining room. There was always -- in fact, Manny Azenberg's -- Charlie Azenberg 32:00was, for a number of years -- was the overall manager, with his wife, [Fanya?]. I've forgotten. Anyways, big tennis player. Anyway, I don't know, it was just an absolutely -- it was a great place. The camp itself, the Kinderwelt Camp, it was divided by a large water tower. So, it was very much like a kibbutz, the water towers of the kibbutzim, and run like -- so, I'd spend days there, but I didn't -- and I knew everybody my age and all of that. But the whole atmosphere of everything there -- as I was saying earlier, I was mentioning, Aubrey Eban, who was -- came with his wife on their honeymoon, came to the States, and they came. Golda Meir, who was, at the time, Golda Meyerson, she came. And, of course, we 33:00all listened. We all were in the casino, it was probably during the day. There were Israeli flags hanging and all of that. A number of young people I worked with, actually, as a waitress, and knew, a number of them made aliyot to Israel. They belonged to Habonim. There were also shule [secular Yiddish school], which I didn't go to because I went to Hebrew school. The shule were all Yiddish-speaking. I already spoke Yiddish, but my father -- we were really, also, rather religious, so it was also the Hebrew that was big. But, as I said, I spoke Yiddish all the time.

CW:For you, growing up, was there any -- people talk about the kultur krig [culture wars], the tension between Hebrew and Yiddish. Did you experience that at all?

BH:I have absolutely no memory. Never heard my father talking about it or anything. I don't -- perhaps it existed, but not that I know of.

CW:Yeah. When you were at the camp, what was your impression of these actors, being someone at the camp and seeing them?

BH:I just thought they were all great. I mean, yeah, I knew 'em all personally. In fact, I was onstage once and something couldn't -- didn't speak, I just stood there throughout the production, and we just knew them, so --

CW:Any that you were particularly close with or had a special --

BH:Wolfe, yeah. Wolfe Barzell I was close to. I didn't know Baruch Lumet because I think -- my sister knew Sidney Lumet. She's much older. She's ninety now. I knew fleetingly, but my parents knew his father, obviously, and his mother. And I remember him being there. There were other actors who came, but I really can't 35:00remember. It was somehow was, I think, even more than Boiberik, that it was really the place to be. At least that's what I thought.

CW:Looking back, what did you get from that experience? What did you learn from growing up in that --

BH:Oh, God, I don't know. It's just a very big part of my life, a wonderful -- first of all, I was very lucky. We really had no money. I would never have been able to be away for the summer. My father worked very, very hard there. Very hard. But he loved it. It was his milieu, even though he never could go to the casino. I mean, he woke up at two in the morning, went into the -- well, he had to be in the kitchen at three in the morning until late at night and all. But for us, it was just a wonderful experience. I mean, I always loved the Yiddish language. I loved singing in Yiddish. I don't have a voice, but I mean singing Yiddish -- it was just -- was a very major part of my life. What was very 36:00interesting, my mother's brothers, particularly -- they became quite wealthy. They were poor kids on the Lower East Side. They worked very hard, and they became wealthy. One of my uncles always talked to my mother about, "You're going to that commie camp again." They had no idea what it meant to be -- I mean, they weren't against Israel once it was established and all, but they had no sense of that, to call a Labor Zionist -- socialist, maybe -- camp "that commie camp." It was unbelievable. And I mentioned just all those wonderful people: Sholom Secunda, I mean, led the band for -- all of these people that came, all of which are part of my life. I'm trying to think if I can't think of Yael's mother -- father, who was a famous musician. Or a lot of just famous people who came, and they were just sort of friends, which was very special. I was very lucky on a lot of levels. Very lucky. I also had great parents, and a lucky life.

CW:What do you think were the values they wanted to pass onto you?

BH:It's an interesting question. I think to be a good person. I think -- was passed on, the devotion to Israel, which is very strong with us. Just sort of basically that. I didn't have much of an education. We didn't really have any money. I really couldn't go to college. I went to work at seventeen, but I was a fashion illustrator and I was lucky enough to be able to work at that for a number of years, making very little money. They needed the money I earned, so that -- my brother, of course, went, because my brother was the brother who 38:00became a scientist and chemist. And my sister did not. She also went to work young. But that was the way it is. But I came from a very happy home. I've heard recently (laughs) a lot of unhappy friends who've grown up in unhappy homes, and I was very lucky. Very lucky. We had no money, but had a great home, great life. I'm just sorry I didn't keep enough of my mother's recipes. I kind of thought she'd always be around. She died just before her sixtieth birthday. I was twenty. Adam, our son, was a year-and-a-half. And you just sort of think it's going to be all the time, and it isn't. So, unfortunately, I didn't take any recipes from her. Course, she never had recipes. She'd just say, "I put in that, I put in some of this, I put in some of that," and out came something really good.

CW:Wow.

BH:And we still, as much as we can, we've always gone to the Yiddish theater. I mean, it's always been a big -- we go to regular theater, too. We like theater. But, yeah.

CW:Any other stories about Unser Camp that you remember particularly?

BH:Well, and they then bought some property and we had a lake, which was really nice. They had, yes, every -- I think Saturday, or maybe Sunday morning, they had what was called -- an area, separate away from the dining [UNCLEAR], called the literarishe vinkl [literary corner], which we used to call the narishn vinkl [fools' corner], 'cause as young people, we really didn't go there to listen to these people much. But I remember they did have Sholem Asch, yeah, which was interesting, who spoke. A number of others, I can't remember. But writers, 40:00Yiddish writers who would come and speak -- I don't think political people came there so much as I think artists. There was also -- I have a Haggadah of his here somewhere -- Saul Raskin, who was -- I don't know if you know -- he's a well-known, yeah. He came a couple of times, as I remember, and some of his things were sold. And I can't remember -- it was a long time ago -- some others. But I know a lot of people came and spoke at that, quote, narishn vinkl. And there were other artists, for sure, who came, but I can't remember.

CW:Great.

[END OF INTERVIEW]