GABRIELA VON SELTMANN ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA: This is Agnieszka Ilwicka and today is 10th of December, 2015. I am here in Warsaw, in beautiful Żoliborz with Gabi von Seltmann, or Gabriela von Seltmann, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Gabi, do I have your permission to record this interview?

GABRIELA VON SELTMANN: Of course, I agree.

AI:Thank you very much. (laughter) I would like to start with your family background. Could you please briefly tell me about your family background?

GVS:I'm coming from a mixed family with mixed cultures, mixed religions, from Galicia, from Poland, area of Kraków. And mixed because this was a very 1:00multinational and multicultural area in the past, before the Second World War. And, I'm the product (laughs) of this mixture. And from my mother's side, this was the Polish noblesse, and they were, I would say, educated people living in Kraków. And from my father's side, it's Polish Jewish roots, which actually make that -- I make all my life the research. This is the reason, actually, when I watch back my history. This was from the beginning, the questions and no answers. So, that's why, I think, my main subject of my work is a memory and transmission of memory in the next generations.

AI:We will definitely develop this topic later. But I would like to understand 2:00this correctly. So, your Jewish origin comes from your father's side.

GVS:Yes, yes, my father -- my grandmother, mother of my father, was Jewish. However, already baptized, so educated in different culture. And my father, because of trauma and fears which happen in the past in the family, is not talking about the subject. So, actually, I am the only one asking questions.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

And, interesting is this, that with many families with which we talk with -- my husband, which is a German journalist and writer, we ask questions, we write books, we make films. And we see very often that in the family, even if there is no memory at all, there is always one person which starts to ask questions, and then whole story starts again.

AI:And you are, in your family, the one --

GVS:Yes, yes.

AI:-- who asks.

GVS:Yes.

AI:Okay. Before we will talk about the reasons why you're asking the questions, I would like to know more about your ancestors. So, can you give me just a brief picture, who are the people -- what do you know about them, from both sides?

GVS:From both sides, yeah. From my mother's side, Polish people and people from the area of Beljik, Belgium. So, French speakers and different religions. Christians, Catholic and Protestants. This is what -- my knowledge about it. And my grandfather, which was killed during the Second World War, was a -- educated man, and he opened a special school, educating the tribe which is called Hutsuls in the area of Karpaty Mountains, which is now, in the present moment, the 4:00Ukraine area. And then, he was killed at Auschwitz, Auschwitz-Birkenau. And grandmother could escape, together with her children, among them my mother, which was a very little baby -- from the area of Ukraine, where -- which is called by Timothy Snyder, "Bloodlands." It was a very complicated and cruel area during the Second World War. So, they could escape from this area back to Kraków, and that's why they survived. And my father, born the same time, like my mother, during the war, 1942. Born in the woods in the area of Kraków, because they were hiding in the woods, my family, my grandfather and my Jewish grandmother. They spent almost whole wartime in the woods, and there he was 5:00born. So, both my parents are, I would say, influenced a lot by Second World War time, as little children. So, the knowledge about this, what happened, they don't have big -- but they have a big fear, from both sides. And this is what I explore, also, a lot. This is the question -- how you transmit the memory, how does memory -- or this no memory influence, you and the next generations.

AI:Do you have any stories about your ancestors from the time before the Second World War?

GVS:I had not, at all. And thanks to my husband -- we've met nine years ago -- his family story's also very complicated. And he was, as a journalist, was used 6:00to ask questions. So, he came to my family, and he started to ask questions of my family. And my family, which was trained in not talking, to not talk about this, what was in the past, they were actually very much in shock in the beginning. But slowly, slowly -- it took many years -- they started to answer questions, questions which they could answer, and especially my mother. And then, my husband wrote book, second book about the subject of his life, which was published in Germany and in Poland. It's the story of our -- both families. Uwe's, my husband grandfather was an SS man in Kraków, and my grandfather killed at Auschwitz. So, quite, I would say, complicated background to be together. So, this research helped us a lot to be together. He knew already about his grandfather, which committed suicide 1945. So, this was also a taboo 7:00subject in the family, and people don't want to talk. And when we've met together, nine years ago, we discover that in both sides, in both families -- in his family and in my family -- there is the same behavior about not talking and about taboo subjects, and how they -- how it's looking like when you are a child already and you start -- ask questions, and they teach you to not do it, like in non-verbal way, even. Just someone is become nervous or you see that your mother starts to cry. And you stop to ask questions.

AI:You were also raised this way?

GVS:Yes. Yes, the same about him and the same about me. This memory of the past was so painful, because of different reasons, of course, that the idea of these two families and many, many other families in the world after the war -- because 8:00it's very often the same question, was not to talk about it. Something was lost, definitely, and it was painful to remember. So, when we've met with Uwe, I already was trying to talk to them, but it was not easy. And when he came, as a journalist, it was a different story. And I think the way they started talk and the stories they started to tell changed a lot and influenced our family, in the positive way.

AI:So, now you have to tell me, how did you meet?

GVS:Oh, yes. We met nine years ago. It was the last day of Jewish Culture Festival in Kraków, the great festival in Kazimierz, Jewish quarter there. And Uwe just came from Ukraine, because he is traveling with special groups of tourists, which he's taking from Germany to Ukraine. And he's guiding them there 9:00to tell them about Jewish and Yiddish life there, in L'viv, in Czernowitz, in Karpaty Mountains, the great area. So, he was just back from Ukraine, and I was just back from my work. And I was sitting with friends. And in Café Singer, it doesn't take long time to just start to talk to each other. It's great place. I recommend to go there. (laughs)

AI:What street is this place?

GVS:It's Estery Street, Kraków, Kazimierz. Amazing place. Twenty-four hours, open. (laughs) And then, there we started to talk. And my friend, which is a German journalist, also -- she's from Poland, but 1968, she was expelled. And she started to ask questions to Uwe. And she said, "So, ah, you are German. What do you do here?" And he said, "Oh, I'm traveling often here. I'm coming often 10:00here, and I finished my first book here in this place." "What book?" And then he said, "Aha, a book about my grandfather." And then, silence because he said, "About my grandfather, which was an SS man." And there was really silence, because it was a shock. I never met a German which was telling such a story in such open way. Very often, I hear that they suffered also and so on and so on, and that they lost grandparents or whatever happened, but never in open way such information. So, they were silent at the table, and then I said, "Listen, but, you want the story, my grandfather was killed at Auschwitz." And I could see his face, and -- I will cry. (laughs) It was very touching moment. And we start to talk, and we talk until now. (laughs) Very fast, we started to be together. I 11:00was interested about his book, which was written in -- published in Germany about his grandfather, because he made the research fifteen years ago to know really what happened. And it was in German. I didn't know German, so I wanted to read it.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

I said, "Okay, so give it to me, maybe someone can publish this in Poland." And it took many years, of course. But at least it was published and I could read it in Polish language. (laughs) So, this is how we met. And I'm so touched, because it came to my head that, actually, before him, all the subjects of concentration camps or Second World War or Jewish stories, it was always very touching for me, but I had no idea about -- that I have, in my family, such strong roots like that. So, I could feel that I'm very connected. But I didn't know why. This was 12:00this question why I am so touched, why taking so strong. I knew something is under it. But when you have no information and you are trained to not teach, to not ask -- so, then you live your life somehow like -- I don't know, you just live your life. And when something is shaking in you and taking your heart, you just try to push it away, to not think about it. But I don't recommend, really.

AI:Gabi, I would like to ask you, how is to be person growing up in Poland, born in '70s, in a very difficult time for the Polish country, just already after Jews were expelled from our country. And you, as a member of a Jewish family, 13:00did you know that you're Jewish --

GVS:No.

AI:-- when you were growing up?

GVS:No. (laughs) No, I had no idea. This was not a subject. It was not a subject to talk about. And it's not a subject to talk about until now. My father is so strong, traumatized, that I can't talk with him about it. So, to discover these roots was just -- some people would say, by chance or accidentally, that nothing happened by chance in life. And this, I'm sure. So, slowly, the informations were coming. But I have no photos, I have no -- actually, I don't have -- when you are growing, you learn about different cultures, yeah? And I had always 14:00Jewish friends. They were always close to me and around me. But I was never thinking about this, or I was not dividing what culture, what -- it's all interesting and that's all. But --

AI:And what --

GVS:-- but, for example, when I come back now to memory, I see that my grandmother used to cook -- I would say almost kosher kitchen, yeah? So, she was never mixing the milk with meat. She was doing these kind of things, which we were eating challah, we -- she was using challah, for example, for Christian holidays. So, she was using challah. So, it was a crazy mixture of the past and present time. And now, I know what was it, how crazy she was always when my grandfather used to take some sausage and eat it and drink milk. She was always screaming, "It will kill you! It's very dangerous! It's very unhealthy!" (laughs) Now I know what was it. But in this time, just no memory. I travel 15:00often to Ukraine, and I see very big similarity between Poland in '70s to Ukraine now. Of course, now we have all internet, yes? So, life is completely different, but -- however, this big black hole in memory makes that you can't believe that some people can -- you think they are stupid. It's not stupidity. It's just the long distance -- many generations, indoctrination or just no memory. And then, you don't connect the facts anymore. Yeah.

AI:When was the first moment of your awaking in that sense that you wanted to know more? Do you remember that moment or something --

GVS:Yes, I remember this moment. This was here. I started to live in Warszawa when I was thirty -- like twenty-eight. And this was the first time when I had friends here. They were 16:00Jewish and they said, Oh, come with us to synagogue. I said, "Yeah, of course." I go there, and I was so amazed by the holidays, and so connected to this. And this time, I had no idea, really, yet. But you know how is it, even if you are in Poland and Jewish and you are hidden very good, yeah, for generations, the neighbors, they remember. So, the neighbors were the first one which started to talk to me, because they were calling my father Jewish. " Żyd [Jew]. Ah, iść do Żyda, go to the Jew, he will" -- because my father's veterinary doctor. And this was making me -- thinking also, What's the story? Why they say like that? These kind of little things, nice and not nice. (laughs)

AI:Wow.

GVS:Yes. But I don't know my grandmother, the real name of her. I don't know my 17:00ancestors. I don't have any photos of them. I have only my grandmother, photos -- and her siblings. I was trying to search for something, but they came to the area of Poland from some kind of Slovak area now. And I could not find -- and you know, maybe it's like this that I made already such big research about my other grandfather, which was killed at Auschwitz, that I think I'm a little bit, for a moment -- I need a moment, a break, 'cause all this informations -- when you start to have them so late, like seventy years later, it is really -- you must digest it. (laughs) Somehow swallow and digest. However, I mean, the perfect moment, because I'm a third generation -- so, this is the time to ask questions, because we are emotionally enough far away, but still connected to 18:00the memory and feelings. So, we are both, with Uwe, third generation. And we made a lot of interviews with people from third generation. And we make interviews in Yiddish, in Polish, in German, in Russian. All these languages we use, and it's -- in French, and they always say that this is the perfect moment, if it's not too late, of course, sometimes.

AI:We will come back to this topic. But I would like to stay a bit longer in Kraków and your Kraków, 'cause you were growing up in really interesting moment for Poland. It was the moment of transformation, also opening for Europe. Plus, I know that you are, if I can say that, a woman of renaissance in that sense that you know many languages, you have various interests and you are a real artist.

GVS:And about kilograms. (laughter)

AI:That's out of (laughter) this field. And you're a beautiful woman, and I 19:00would like to know how did it happen that, in Kraków, in this communist Poland, you could blossom so beautifully, and also inside, not only outside. Please tell me more about that period. So, just come back to your memory from --

GVS:Yes, you know my mother is a French-speaking woman. And my grandmother, when she escaped from Poland and from the area of Ukraine, and she moved in '70s to France, to Paris. So, we used to travel there. And my mother was a French teacher, teacher of French language. And so, the teachers and other French people, they used to come to us. And this was the first moment since I was little that I understood that, first of all, I must learn languages. And the second thing is that there is another different world somewhere far away, than 20:00this what I see in the grey Poland in '70s. And there was no internet, no television, that -- programs in television in this time. And you could not compare so much this world in which you live to the other one. There was some informations that it's looking different, but for me as a child, I mean, I had luck, because there was no war, yeah? (laughs) So, I was living in different system. And, of course, just after 1968, a terrible time for Jewish people, and this is absolutely -- but my memory is, I was born '71, so my memory starts, really, about 1980, some kind of conscious memory. And this is a time of tensions, of course, and Solidarność. And in Poland, a lot of things start to 21:00change. But we all had the feeling that we go to light, the direction of positive change. This was a very, very interesting -- also, from one side, the change which makes fear because something will change -- you don't know what will -- how it will look if there will be war or maybe something else. And from the other side, this feeling, Oh, at least we can start to talk and say what we think and not all the time whispering somewhere, and en cachette listening, the Radio Wolna, Free Europe, yeah? So, it was a time of big optimism, '80s, even if it's with a strong fear. I remember this time as -- exciting optimism. Very, very, very strange. Nothing in the shops, except you could buy something like vinegar in the shops. But very positive connection between people, helping each 22:00other. Yeah, different world.

AI:When was the first time when you went abroad?

GVS:I was twelve. I went to Hungary. (laughs) To Hungary, yeah. And then, to France, traveling sometimes. And they used to come to us, to visit us, to -- old teachers, friends of my mother. It was very nice feeling, and the feeling that, when the stranger is coming, that it's a positive moment when a foreigner is coming, that this is something very nice and exciting and interesting. So, all 23:00these xenophobic behaviors which we have in Poland, I think, are coming from -- mainly, not only, but mainly from just that people were not used -- to see different nations or different cultures. We are such a homogenous society now, it's incredible. It's so bad.

AI:Yeah, and you grew up in this homogenic concept of nation --

GVS:Yeah.

AI:-- not knowing that you belong to Europe, right?

GVS:Yeah, yeah. Yes. But I'm thinking often about it. What makes -- that you are afraid of different people or you are interested in them? I don't know. Maybe it's question of character, also. I like travel, I travel a lot in my life, and I like to change the places. I think, There, where I am, this is my place, yeah? So, it can be everywhere. And I continue, and thanks God I can live such a life 24:00now. It changed a lot in Poland and in Europe, and we can travel. And for Polish people, I tell you, really, born in '70s like me, it's always a miracle. When I travel, when I take my passport, which I have home, when -- was impossible in '70s here. You should go and ask for passport, and if they agree to give you a passport, and you should ask for permission to travel away abroad. Here now, I buy tickets, I travel, I -- there's no borders, yeah, in the European Union. It's a miracle every time when I cross the borders and no one is asking me -- and no one is digging in my luggage. I'm excited about it, that it's a miracle. (laughs) It's because of the past. It's because of the past.

AI:Because of this experience of being watched, like Big Brother.

GVS:Yeah.

AI:And everyone is trying to know everything about us.

GVS:Yeah. And to ask for permission, it was feeling like a child. I mean, you must ask Big Brother for permission to go to see your family or to travel somewhere or to make business somewhere away. Yeah, it's different now. Thanks God.

AI:Gabi, please, tell me something about education in this late communist period. First of all, what sort of experience was -- to be educated in Poland until you were -- twenties. And then, also, what sort of inspirations, if any, you got from that type of school?

GVS:Yes, I had the inspirations, because, of course, many subjects were -- there was many subjects which were forbidden. And we could not learn about history. About the Jews, there was -- about Jewish history, there was nothing in the books. Nothing. Nothing. We were walking and living in the cities, with Jewish 26:00quarters, where sometimes even was a -- sixty percent Jewish citizens and we had no idea about it. I have a friend, he's a journalist, and he grew up in Bielsko-Biała. Was a big Jewish community. And he was little bit -- he's a little bit older from me, and he said, "Listen, I was going to school, which was a Jewish building. I was walking through the area, through the big space and plac [Polish: place] where was -- used to stand a Jewish synagogue," and so on and so on. He said, "And they never told me, my parents," he said, "never told me what I am." So, I was in the same -- educated in the little city. Later, I studied in Kraków, but before it was in Grybów, it's close to Nowy Sącz. So, Grybów, Stróżna -- no, Grybów, Grybów, Bobowa, and Nowy Sącz, the 27:00Halberstam family, the famous Halberstam in each of these places, the rabbis, rebbe -- and I had no idea about it. We all had no idea. No one was telling us this. The one which remembered, the older one, they are not talking. And the young one, they didn't remember. They didn't know about it. Now, it's different. It's a huge difference in Poland about it. All this movement in little cities, where people start to ask questions, where they transformed the city, these little shtetls [small towns in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community] into shtetl once a year when they make these festivals, when -- of course, there are different people with -- which are anti-Semitic and think in the negative way, but this movement is so important because it's coming from roots, from downstairs, and done not by European Union or some clerics, but by people living 28:00in different cities. It's a very interesting movement. But coming back to the past, when you're a child, you don't know what to ask about, yeah? And I remember, there was a teacher in our school, she was the Polish language teacher. She said -- I was thirteen, she said to me, "Go home and ask your grandparents what they remember about Jews." And I remember I went back home and I came to my grandmother and I said, "Grandma, do you remember something about Jews?" And she was so shocked by this question that she was running away from the kitchen. She went away. And many, many years later, I ask her again this question. I said, "You look different. You eat different. Could you feel in this time of school, like, some stranger?" And she was already ninety years old in 29:00this time when I ask her this question. And she said, "I'm Polish." And I was -- I said, "Yes, I know that you are Polish." And, "I am Polish!" So, very strong she was saying, "I'm Polish." And I said, "Okay, but you -- was looking different. I mean, you had problems." And she started to cry. And the tears were going down. And then, she don't wanted to talk with me anymore. So, it was so, so touching -- discussion and interview with her. And once I said this to my father, but he didn't react for this at all. So, I know nothing. (laughs)

AI:Do you think that he knows the real name?

GVS:I don't think -- she was using the name of her husband and the name of her father was changed. So, this name is not the real name. Maybe this is what I 30:00should know and this is enough.

AI:Gabi, what do you think about this lost identity? Because you are one of many people who live today with this issue. It is an issue -- do we like it or not, it is an issue. And many people in Poland don't know where, really, they are from. And they live under their given identity through the ancestors, which is calling -- Polish Catholic identity, the nationalist identity. However, we are a multicultural society in hiding.

GVS:Yeah. I think this identity subject is very strong subject of all my life. And I like to ask questions. And even now when -- that I'm used to this, that I 31:00don't have answers for these questions, I'm happy that I'm asking these questions because I see that in my family, it shake them. It makes them -- little bit like, Oh, some quest-- oh my God, some memory maybe, but no, no, no, I don't want it. So, I did all my best to know. And because I'm artist, it's easier for me, because I put it in different sorts of art or films or books or some pictures or some other opportunities which I have. It makes me -- feeling better. Even if I don't have answer, this -- asking questions makes me really feeling better. And because I have this opportunity because of art. Many people, they don't have this opportunity. So, I can't imagine what life you live when you don't ask questions about identity. Maybe it will be the whole life asking questions.

AI:Maybe. Gabi, did your grandmother have opportunity to meet Uwe?

GVS:She was very old when she met Uwe. She was already ninety-six almost, and she was not contacting anymore with us so much. She was positive, she was smiling. I remember her one question when I said, "Grandma, he's German." And she said, "It must be German?" (laughter) But what is it for me, German, Austrian, Chinese, or whatever. I mean, this is -- when there is love, you don't ask about nationality.

AI:Okay, but your love is a descendant of a Nazi killer in Poland, so I'm a 33:00hundred percent sure that everyone in Poland is asking you: He really must be a German?

GVS:(laughs) Yes, yes, but this is, for me -- is a question which makes me angry sometimes. I say, "Yes, but he's a good German." And they say, Ah, ah, okay, so if he's a good one, then --

AI:So, he's the other German. (laughter)

GVS:Oh, this is -- Uwe's story is also -- he's also having Jewish roots, even if he is having grandfather which was an SS man. So complicated in Europe, all this -- and not only in Europe, actually. After all war, the same procedures. Same procedures after all wars.

AI:Because we are people and we are or good people or bad people.

GVS:Yeah.

AI:We are not different people.

GVS:And sometimes we are good and bad in one, and when we know it and when we -- because of our works which we do, we know that everyone is good and bad, and that depends of choice which you make. Sometimes -- I hope we will never have to 34:00do any choice which they had in the past, in the Second World War -- people to do.

AI:Amen. And you became artist, and you are, already, important artist in Poland, and definitely in Europe now. And I don't know about the world, if world already knows about you. It's something what I don't know. But I know that in Europe, people know about you. Could you please give me the brief look on your journey through geography and also insight in -- a little bit overlap in the time -- in the periods like -- where and when did you live?

GVS:So, I used to live in Paris, in '90s, for few years. There I join my grandmother, my other grandmother, and my aunt. Then, I studied in Aix-en-Provence for one year. Then, I came back to Kraków, and from Kraków to 35:00Warszawa, Poland. And then, when I met Uwe, I follow him and I was in Leipzig, in Lipsk for one year, in Germany. And now, I'm back to Warsaw. I hope it will not finish like that. (laughs) And so, then when we made the research about my family roots and, by the way, about Uwe's family, also, additionally -- and we traveled to France and Ukraine, and very often to Ukraine. Each year, we used to go there to -- we were taking the groups of tourists, and we guided them there. So, yes, I travel a lot in this area of Europe, this part of Europe here. Never in America. Never in America. However, it's big -- I would say admiration for America in my family, so one day, I hope.

AI:I'm sure it will happen, (laughter) rather sooner than later.

GVS:Yeah, we want to bring our love story to America. (laughs)

AI:Okay. So, now it's time to tell the world about your projects. First of all, how would you describe your knowledge of Yiddish?

GVS:It's a strange knowledge. I think, of course, it's not from -- it's not mame-loshn [mother tongue]. No one used to speak to me in this language. However, my grandmother used to use the Yiddish words, about which I had no idea that it's Yiddish. And this I discovered when I met my husband and I say, "Yeah, I know some German words." And he said, "What words?" And then, I said to him -- he said, "It's not German words." (laughs)

AI:And what words did you -- said?

GVS:Zitsfleysh [perseverance], for example, she used to say. She used to say shiksa. I don't remember now. I must think a moment and I tell you. I was 37:00thinking it's German, but this -- she used to mix these German words and use them in such a -- places which were not anymore the German words. So, this is really interesting. I'm thinking -- it will come in a moment. And then, when we travel to Ukraine, in our program, we had "Boris Dorfman." The main point of my knowledge about Yiddish, because he used to guide the German groups through L'viv in Ukraine in the Yiddish language. Imagine this. So, first was Uwe, which 38:00knew this language from childhood. He knew this language when he was teenager. So, he understood -- he could understand the language and he was translating him into German for Germans, because in some German lands they understand Yiddish and some not. And this was my first real meeting with Yiddish, like ten years ago. I must say it was a strange language, because from one side the sound was a little bit German. From the other side, I could learn it much faster than German language, because the basic is the Slovene grammar, yeah? So, it started to enter through hearing, just -- I'm not speaking in this language, but I understand when you talk to me. I understand what you say, I understand -- I think the next step will be to speak.

AI:I'm sure.

GVS:Yeah, especially when we made a documentary. It's fifty minutes long 39:00documentary, all in Yiddish language. It's the first Polish-German co-production after the war in this language. We made it with Uwe, and this is about Boris Dorfman, L'viv. Then we made editing, and editing, it's many, many hours of listening, and again and again and again. And this was the very strange (laughs) learning of this language.

AI:Who came up with the idea to make it as a movie?

GVS:We had this idea -- simultaneously with my husband, because we know Boris since long time. And few years ago, we went again to L'viv. It was before this political -- before this conflict which is there now. And we've met all -- Boris wife on the street, and she said that Boris is feeling not good, that he's ninety and that he quit his job. He's not guiding the groups anymore, and that he's quite depressive and it's looking like it will be -- finish bad. And we 40:00watch on each other, with Uwe, and we said, Listen, we -- it's last moment to record this, what he's doing, how he's doing. Follow him with camera. And we came back home and one month later, we came with professional cameraman and all stuff to make the film, documentary about him. So, it was very fast decision, and very fast we could, thanks God, find money. We knew that there is a pressure of time, like with all these recordings which we do in Yiddish language and with all survivors. We know that every day can be too late. This feeling we have very strong in the projects we do, that the pressure of time is so strong. They are all going away, the one which can tell us something. It's the last moments now.

AI:Always is the last moment, and we are the one who -- sometimes I feel like we are this one second too late.

GVS:That's true, that's true. But there's all last pieces we can still find. It's really this last moment for these last pieces. And we are cautious of it, really. It's good from one side. From the other side, it's strong pressure to know that it's last moment.

AI:Your family came from Galicia, and Galicia, it used to be this strange territory somewhere in between Poland, today Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia and other country. How did you feel when you crossed the Ukrainian border?

GVS:Yes, especially that my father -- my family suffered a lot there. But with all interviews we made with survivors, we -- from different nations, different 42:00religions. We hear this message, Talk to people, not to nations. And I agree with this. So, my first travel to Ukraine was so full of fear and prejudices, and this family memory from seventy years ago. I could not struggle with this, until I met people, until I started to talk to them, until they started to help me to make research, and we built this close contact. This helped me a lot to not think anymore like my family is thinking -- with this fear which is building so strong aggression, an unfinished story, the things which -- they left everything. They were escaping from this area with childrens [sic] and that's 43:00all -- a lot, with life. Life, so already a lot, but that this memory is very painful. And I was the first one, together with my husband -- we went seven years later, after these bad things which happened there to the place where my mother was born, to the house and the school of my grandfather. And we had big luck to meet people which welcome us and which were very nice, which were not aggressive. This was like healing, very strong healing process for whole family, not only for me. That's why I say very often in Poland that when someone is coming to your home and is saying that he was the owner, it's mainly the Jewish houses, yeah? Of the place? Never take the dog against him or never scream. Just welcome and take to the place, because very often this is this spiritual -- and 44:00not only spiritual end of the tragic story, when people sit together at the table, which probably belonged to the grandparents of someone, or parents. And this is a very strong healing process. Very helpful and very beautiful moment, and precious.

AI:Do you think that Poles are prepared for those meetings?

GVS:Yes and not. Some yes, some which open heart. They feel that they should behave like humans. Some not, definitely. I think it's a very big influence, I would say, and also partly negative, of the Catholic Church, which in the little cities, especially, is making a bad job about it. Not everywhere. We can't 45:00generalize, yeah? We can't do it. I don't do it anymore in my life. But they make this kind of fear and aggressive behaviors. They build it. They make it -- growing in some places. They feed it, and people follow them. Oh, it is extremely stupid.

AI:Are you Catholic yourself?

GVS:No, I'm not.

AI:From the very early background?

GVS:From the very early background, yes. I'm baptized. But very early, like when I was seven or eight, I stopped to -- I refused to go to church, nine. And I didn't like it, so I don't -- I never liked it. And my family actually was never very Catholic. They celebrated big holidays. There was never Bible home. I never 46:00had this kind of Catholic indoctrination. I never had. So, I'm thankful (laughs) for this, yes. And when I started to enter more and more in the Jewish roots, I think that Judaism took me very strongly. And when you are from the time of communism in Poland -- I am such example, I -- you are never able to belong to any organization for hundred percent, because always under your ears is some information -- are they saying truth or not? Because it's from the time of communism, yeah? Even in television, when you see the information and, aha, what channel is it? Which direction? Right, left? You always think and analyze before 47:00you make decision. So, it took from me a lot of time and the struggle with my feelings from the past to belong to some -- to really feel identity and to belong. I think it's not only connected to the system from that past time. It's also connected to my roots, which are so different, that my DNA don't know how to belong. (laughs)

AI:That's probably for the best.

GVS:Yes. I enjoy it more and more. Also, for people from outside, who we are. I mean, the grandson of SS man, the granddaughter of someone with some Polish Jewish strange roots -- people like to know exactly who you are. This is this, this is this, and this is this name, this is this color. And I am not like that, I can't be like that.

AI:And you don't want to be like that.

GVS:And now, I start to appreciate it, but for a very long time, I was feeling 48:00like I'm different and that it's not good.

AI:Well, it's not good because it's not easy, because it's a way against the whole society.

GVS:Yes.

AI:So --

GVS:Yes, especially in the society which is homogenic. My husband is German, the husband of my sister, he's English. I am the third sister, so we don't what it will be. (laughs) So, we are instinctly -- or I don't know if it's the good word in the -- what the instinct -- we search for different identities and for multicultural connections in the instinct way. Yeah, it's looking without knowledge we do it, even. I think many Polish people do the same. I hope, I see.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AI:I would like to turn now to a discussion of your work, because you -- I know 49:00that you are involved in really interesting projects. And I wanted to -- to tell more about that. First of all, about this one, which is really contemporary, about Zuzanna Ginczanka.

GVS:Yes, I make a project about the great, great lady from Poland. Jewish, from area of Russia. And she moved with her parents to Równe. And in Równe, she stayed with her grandmother. And when she started to grow, there were a few different nations, different cultures, also. And she was choosing Polish school to learn Polish language and to study in this language. And she became an amazing poet with a very tragic, short life. She died 1944, actually -- died -- she was murdered. She was killed by German, Nazi, during the Second World War, 50:00in Kraków. Last three years, hiding because she -- as we say -- they say, the Jewish people, with which we made a lot of interviews, that they say "bad look," yeah? Zły wygląd [Polish: bad appearance], on the face. She was looking very Jewish in the Second World -- it was like that. But before the war -- and she was about twenty-five years old or twenty-four, she wrote an -- amazing poetry. It was published in this time, only one book with her poetry. This, what she was writing during the Second World War unfortunately we don't have. We have only few poems. And in the '20s, between the wars, very famous, very well-known, especially in this bohème -- in this milieu of artists in Warsaw, exactly here where we stay now when we make interview. And then, completely forgotten, 51:00because she was woman, because she was Jewish. It doesn't fit to this time. And because her poetry was very emancipated and adult and beautiful and touching. And she was talking about life, about suffering, about love, about future, about fears. Amazing subjects she used to touch in these poems. And now, after one year making research and preparing the poems, we start the project, me and some musicians and the great singer, Dorota Jarema. And we'll be ready in one month, in January the 26th, we have the first concert, and Dorota will sing Ginczanka poetry. It will be very modern project, I would say. So, not klezmer music, but 52:00rather connection of the past and present time. What -- we try to find this new Jewish music. It means what would be now, with the Jewish music, if this music would continue through generations in Poland. So, this is the idea, and I hope it will work, and I hope that I can bring Ginczanka to America, to Israel, to all other countries where people don't know about her. Now, someone is translating her poems into English. So, soon you can read it, and it's really tough. It's strong. And I hope to have some words in Hebrew or in some -- in Russian, also. I make for it also some kind of video art, video presentation, which will be in the background of concert. This we start now. We will see -- this will take time. But concert will be ready soon, and it's a beautiful story.

AI:Do you have a favorite poem of Ginczanka?

GVS:Yes, I have some of them like that.

AI:Can you read me one?

GVS:Of course. Oh, yes, yes. I want to do it. There is a book about her. There is a book about her, and -- but it will be Polish.

AI:Of course! (laughter) Of course. We can prepare a translation for our audience.

GVS:Yes. Soon there will be a translation. Oh, just a moment. (pause) (coughing) So, the title is, "Wyjaśnienie na marginesie [Polish: Justified in the 54:00Margins]." "Nie powstałam/z prochu,/nie obrócę się/w proch./Nie zstąpiłam/z nieba/i nie wrócę do nieba./Jestem sama niebem/tak jak szklisty strop./Jestem sama ziemią/tak jak rodna gleba./Nie uciekłam/znikąd/i nie wrócę/tam./Oprócz samej siebie nie znam innej dali./W wzdętem płucu wiatru/i w zwapnieniu skał/muszę/siebie/tutaj/rozproszoną/znaleźć. [Polish: I did not come/from dust,/so I won't go back/to dust./I did not come/from heaven/so I am not heaven-bound./I myself am heaven,/a sky of purest glass./And earth itself am I,/a child of native ground./I did not run/at all,/so I won't be running/back./Apart from my own self, all else is unfonfined. My lungs bellowing wind/all sediments do crack/and I, fragmented,/here/now myself/must/find.]" That's very beautiful.

AI:It's like a metaphor for all of us, people who are searching for --

GVS:Yeah, for identity, for memory, for --

AI:And also for the real truth.

GVS:Yes, for truth. For love. This is the main subjects we search for, all 55:00humans. (laughs) I cry and she cries, and so -- (laughter) yeah.

AI:To me, Ginczanka is like a big metaphor, not only of the Jewish nation but also Polish nation, the fact that she was enough brave to write in Polish and be a single woman. And what a beautiful woman she was. We know that. She's an amazing example for -- not only for art, but also for the truth about humankind.

GVS:Yes, and she used to use the language as a tool. This was kind of -- she used to play with the language. So, she -- that's why it's so difficult to 56:00translate these poems, because it's a game she played with the language.

AI:But her first language was Yiddish, right?

GVS:No, this was a -- this we don't know exactly. Probably it was Yiddish and Russian. She was from some kind of educated family. So, for sure, she used to speak Russian, and I think Yiddish. This we don't know. We don't know much about her, yeah. We have her poems, yeah.

AI:And that's the most important.

GVS:Yes.

AI:She is our Emily Dickinson. (laughter)

GVS:That's true. That's true.

AI:In a way.

GVS:That's true. (laughs)

AI:But that's not only -- the one project that you work on. I know also about Mordkhe Gebirtig, who is from your own home city.

GVS:Yes. We -- since one year, we make a documentary. We work on the documentary about Mordkhe Gebirtig, the great, famous Jewish guy from Poland, which used to 57:00write the poems in Yiddish language, you know it -- very good. And we had the idea that we want to record and to collect all present artists which are singing Gebirtig. And we are amazed how much people -- and how many artists still use this language. And some in Yiddish, some in different languages. They perform his poems. So, he's still alive. He's very alive. Opposite to Ginczanka. About her, the memory is slowly coming back. And Gebirtig, in Yiddish, but still alive. Very alive. We, of course, search for some opportunities to record someday also in America. This would be great, because you have the greats there, 58:00artists which perform in Yiddish. There is a strong nest of Yiddish singers in Berlin, in Germany, in Europe, and in America.

AI:How many artists already did you record?

GVS:Now we have about forty of them, around.

AI:Forty different groups or artists?

GVS:Yes. Yes.

AI:Singing and playing Gebirtig?

GVS:Yes. It's about forty, and soon, we go to Berlin. The 19th, I will be -- Painted Bird, ten years of them. And they will, of course, sing three songs of Gebirtig. So, the 19 of December, we also go and we record them there. We do this when we can. So, this is not our main job, unfortunately. We have no money to travel with professional camera and so on, because we use only professional camera. So, good pictures and good sound. It must be with the good sound. So, 59:00still we have about one year of work about it, and then, some editing. And it will be -- this will be partly Yiddish, partly English, Polish language film.

AI:Yeah, not like "Boris Dorfman" because "Boris Dorfman" is --

GVS:"Boris Dorfman" is all Yiddish, yes.

AI:Always Yiddish, yes.

GVS:So, we show part of the beginning where there are some talking heads. Some people -- informations, then everything is in Yiddish. The subtitles are -- this is the -- "Boris Dorfman: A Mentsh" is a film for someone who knows only Yiddish, he will understand everything, because even the beginning, when they are speaking -- people about Boris, we have with Yiddish subtitles. So, really -- all informations about film, the title, everything. (laughs)

AI:Gabi, to me, this whole idea is absolutely crazy. And how come you are so involved into Yiddish movies? How come -- do you stick with this?

GVS:It started with Uwe, because he is so involved in this story. And he took me, somehow, on it. And I follow him with a big joy. And it develop more and more. So, there's -- this became kind of source of our life, kind of main idea, main topic of our life. (laughs) I don't know how it was possible, but it happened like that. And definitely, I think the past of our families influenced us and pushed us to -- first to ask questions, and then these questions took us to this Jewish area and Yiddishkayt. And now, we stopped to work together, I 61:00come more to the Jewish woman life. This, I needed so much to do so. That's why Ginczanka and maybe something else, and Uwe, in his own work, with -- he continue Gebirtig in Germany, because there, as I said, in Berlin, it's big opportunity there, the great klezmer musicians and so on. But this all you know.

AI:I know, but people who will watch this interview --

GVS:Yeah, maybe they don't know.

AI:-- they don't know. (laughter) I think they don't know, so you can, of course, say something to it.

GVS:So, this is amazing what happened in Europe, because nothing is the way it looks, really. I mean, that's not only in Europe, but you would say that the war, the Second World War and all these bad things which have been done by 62:00Germans -- and now, seventy years later, the -- Berlin is the center of Yiddish and klezmer music is -- there is living there now more than twenty thousands of Israeli people, young people, in Berlin. And it happened, something interesting, that again, Berlin is kind of capital of Europe.

AI:Like in the '30s.

GVS:Like in the '30s. And for artists, very open place. Very free place. Very open for different nations, for different religions, for different -- so, twenty thousands of Israeli -- I don't know how many thousands of the Turkish people, Muslim live there.

AI:Millions. Probably even millions.

GVS:Yes, so -- and Germans and Polish there and Russians, of course. And the whole Europe is there. And still, a strong spirit of freedom and creation. This 63:00is really amazing.

AI:Do you think that we have the sort of Yiddishkayt in Poland?

GVS:Yiddishkayt, you think always about big amount of people, yeah? This is what is a kind of part of this culture. Here, we don't have it.

AI:Because we don't have people.

GVS:Because we don't have people. But this -- we, here, have in Kraków, in Warszawa, we have a really strong, very individual stage of new modern Jewish music, for example. In Warszawa. It's really surprising. And it's growing and it's developing. So, klezmer developed into some kind of new sort of music. And there are really some great musicians in Warszawa, some -- with some of them, I 64:00make the Ginczanka project.

AI:Can you give the names?

GVS:Yes. This is the DJ Lenar, Marcin Lenarczyk, which is working with very old music. And it's making from this old music kind of new spirit. And there will be also the team, Sza/Za, called Sza/Za. This is -- and this artist, two boys called Szamburski and Zakrocki. And they, Paweł Szamburski and Zakrocki. And they work, also, with the kind of transformation in the music, the influence -- the music. So, they all make this kind of -- with them, I make this new Ginczanka project, and I hope -- well, I don't hope. I know. It will be great thing.

AI:Oh, for sure, it will be.

GVS:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very touching, very beautiful, very strong. And going direction life, right. (laughs) We are learning to go this direction, so --

AI:Oh, I'm sure (laughter) that we are. And I'm sure that slowly but surely, we are getting into master position. (laughter)

GVS:Yeah, we have some tools already. (laughs)

AI:Because we are from the country of charismatic movements. Like Hasidism was born in Poland.

GVS:Of course.

AI:The movement of light.

GVS:Yes. Light and life. Yeah, exactly. Light is life, yeah.

AI:Well, then we already have experience.

GVS:And now, Hanukkah time. So, love and light for all of you. (laughter)

AI:Gabi, you are the person who witnessed lots of changes, both in Kraków and in Warsaw. And in Kraków, you also observed and participated in the birth of Jewish Culture Festival, which today is one of the leading festivals in the 66:00Jewish culture. How did it change the image of the city?

GVS:Tak [Polish: yes], this is -- yes, this is very interesting. For last seven years, I used to live -- or eight -- in Kraków. Each year, we could see the festival, we participated -- festival. And I think -- this is what I said about Ukraine, also. When you face the people, when you talk with them, when you eat with them, you can't hate them anymore. I mean, at least you start to have some idea in the head that maybe they are the same like we are. And this is what festival is doing in Kraków. So, imagine in Kraków, people walking in kippah, the Orthodox Jews which are walking with peyes [sidelocks] and so on. And ladies with childrens and long dress. No one is aggressive to this. No one is reacting, 67:00no one is even watching this with big eyes. So, this is very special. And this is the festival. This is what festival did. You can feel there -- you enter in the synagogues, there is no bodyguards standing there. There is no bulletproof walls. No danger. And rather, I would say interest, and even I would say -- I mean, trendy. It became, in some areas of Polish culture, of Polish -- I would say little bit snob, maybe. (laughter) They -- it's trendy to have a friend which is Jewish or to go to Jewish concert or to -- so (laughter) it's really interesting, which direction it's going.

AI:We're living in interesting times, that's for sure.

GVS:Oh, yes. We live in an -- interesting times. We're living in interesting 68:00times, and we live in a little bit strange time, especially last year, last two years now. This tension in Europe is growing. It's always connected to money. So, economic crisis made it -- people start to be angry.

AI:On the one hand, we have Jewish Culture Festival in Kraków. On the other hand, we are considered as the country of Auschwitz. Have you been to Auschwitz?

GVS:Yes, I've been there few years ago. I was quite awed, because grandfather died there and I had no power to go there to see this place. And then, I found in the newspaper information about great guy. His name is Bernie Glassman, Zen Peacemakers, from New York. And partly, his family was killed at Auschwitz. And 69:00twenty years ago, he came to Auschwitz and he said, "Okay, we should start to pray here, and meditate." And since twenty years, each year, hundred people from all over the world comes to this place, once a year, in the autumn, to meditate every day in Auschwitz-Birkenau. And they did it. I knew that I don't want to be a visitor of this place. I want to participate and to do something with this place, for me and maybe for the others. And the great sentence which Bernie Glassman is saying is, "Auschwitz is a teacher." And when I came there in the beginning, I could not understand this sentence. But the strong process through which you are going there, especially when you are a family connected to the place, makes that -- you start to understand what he wants to say, that this is the place. A terrible place about humans, what humans can do to each other, and 70:00how important -- is to remember and to do everything that it never happened again. This is sentence -- can be banal for some people, but now, again, it's very important. And forever. I hope my grandfather and all others didn't die there for nothing. I hope that we, as humans, we will learn from this what happened and what we did and what it -- was done to us. This time in Auschwitz and all our research for book we made and for film made it -- I'm not thinking about myself anymore as someone from some nation. I'm thinking about myself as a human being. I'm a human being, and I am in all these dangers which concern 71:00human beings. And I -- more conscious I am of it -- because of my past, more I want to say in a very loud voice, "People, watch out!" And now, these dangers grow again. So, sometimes I can't believe that people can be so stupid, that we can be so stupid. But I have hope. (laughs)

AI:Do you think that art can be our way to fight this idea?

GVS:Yes. Yes, absolutely, especially picture, especially something what is now in this pictographic culture, yeah, when people want to see more than to hear, to read. The films and all these possibilities which we have with internet, maybe not everyone will see it, maybe not everyone will know about it, what we say. But at least we can have a hope that we did something, that we can watch -- 72:00I can watch mirror every day in the morning and see my face, say, Okay, I continue. Because I have a duty to all my ancestors.

AI:And for the future.

GVS:Yeah, especially for the future. And very close future. We must really be loud now.

AI:You lived in so many places and your relation is multicultural. But you are still in Poland. Why?

GVS:(laughs) Someone must be here. I come, I wait, I welcome the others which come back. Someone must stay here, that -- Hitler will be winner. I don't want 73:00him to be a winner.

AI:Do you think that there is a place for Yiddish in contemporary Poland?

GVS:Yes, and you will be really surprised, because again, it starts to be trendy. Also, Yiddish, two years ago, even, it would be not so much like it is now. And some big Polish artist starts to think in Yiddish. Like Kayah, for example. Of course it's not coming from heart. It's because it's trendy, yeah? But who cares? I don't care if it's trendy or this or that. The most important is that people again in Poland, for example, start to hear the sound which makes them remember -- or coming back to some situations. It's like with this book of 74:00-- oh, the French writer, what was his name? The madeleine, the cakes. He was writing about the cake, which made his -- when he could smell the cake, his memory was going back to the childhood.

AI:Proust.

GVS:Yeah, Proust, Marcel Proust, exactly, thank you. So, this is the same about language, about sounds. Not only about smelling. It's also the same about songs. I want them to come back to hear this, what they could hear on the streets, people -- only seventy years ago. What is it? It's nothing, seventy years.

AI:And after the war.

GVS:And after the war, also. Until when? Actually, until '60s. There was a radio in Yiddish language, there was -- the people used to speak in this language, until this big tragedy, 1968, yeah? So, actually, how long time? It's not 75:00seventy years. It's like forty years, yeah? Only.

AI:Only, exactly.

GVS:Only forty years. It's nothing. It's nothing. It's one-and-a-half generation. (laughs)

AI:That's not even a full human life.

GVS:Yeah. (laughs) Forty years, it's nothing. So, I hope that when you hear, when you see, when you smell, when you taste, when you -- that slowly, slowly you come back, that this gilgl [transformation] is having the opportunity to start to come back or to exist again.

AI:I hope it will be this way, I really do.

GVS:I am not crazy. I don't imagine that it will come back as what was in the past. This is impossible. But at least we should try.

AI:Well, I think our job as an artist is to create a new -- possibilities, the opportunities for people, to show them that there is another way, right?

GVS:Exactly, exactly.

AI:And this is what you are doing for sure.

GVS:Exactly.

AI:I'm just recording this. (laughter)

GVS:Yes, yes, yes. There is a hope, I'm sure of it. All these crazy stories of these people which survived, and among them I am -- it is proof that there is hope. And this is the most important in this story. Love and hope. And we often finish our readings about our book with my husband -- we say, People, remember: make love, not war. (laughs)

AI:Holy words. (laughter) Gabi, we are nearing to the end. But I would like to 77:00ask you the first question from the last questions: what do you see as the future of Yiddish in general, not only in Poland?

GVS:This is very interesting process now. For example, in L'viv, where we were shooting this film about Boris Dorfman, Boris is teaching Yiddish. But whom he's teaching? Boris is teaching the Ukrainian people, Ukrainian young people, with this feeling of missing something, like these old feelings which we have here in Europe. They are learning Yiddish. This is impossible to think even like that, like it was fifty years ago, yeah? Now it happens. But somehow, it is this what was also in the past, because I met people which said to me, We are not Jewish. 78:00But there were Jews on the street, we used to play with them, so we used to speak Yiddish, also. So, this language is really coming suddenly, and unexpected, in the places in which you will never say it will come. So, Yiddish lived, really. And I think it will transform, also, in unexpected way again the way -- to this -- what we can expect and think it will be. So, from one side, this mainstream of all these programs and all these meetings which happened in America, a lot of them, all these camps, yeah, where you meet and you have -- you talk in this language, you have this culture. There is also this little, little river of the different places where this language comes back as -- also, like in the films, like in the interest of artists. It's very beautiful story. I 79:00know it's little rivers, it's very little. It will not take the big stones, yeah, this river. But maybe this is a beginning also of something.

AI:Little stones are building big results.

GVS:Of course. This is the only one way.

AI:Okay, so my last question is, what advice do you have for aspiring artists in the future generations in our Yiddish lands, world, and surrounding worlds?

GVS:Continue. (laughs) Continue to do this, what you do. So amazing to walk on the street of, I don't know, San Francisco or, I don't know, the little street 80:00of Kraków, for example, and suddenly to speak in this language. And somehow, you can communicate suddenly, and the surprise always from both sides is so amazing. And we will record, I hope, one day for our documentary about Boris Dorf-- about Mordkhe Gebirtig. There is a choir of Mordkhe Gebirtig in Buenos Aires. So, what -- nu? (laughter) What else can be more beautiful than this? And the amazing thing with this language is that always people -- which learn this language, or they have roots or they have other reasons. But always, they have love for this language. So, this is the language with love, and this is really beautiful. So, if you'll know this language or you will learn this language, it means you have lot of love in you. (laughs)

AI:Gabi, thank you very much on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center, Wexler Oral History Project, and on my own behalf, not only for this interview but also for our friendship.

GVS:Thank you.

AI:Thank you.

GVS:Thank you.

AI:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much].

GVS:Thank you, sheynem dank.

[END OF INTERVIEW]