UWE VON SELTMANN ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA: This is Agnieszka Ilwicka, and today is 3rd of January, 2016, the first time. I'm here in Kraków in the apartment of Gabi and Uwe Seltmann with Uwe Seltmann, and Gabi is sitting nearby. And we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Uwe von Seltmann, do I have your permission to record this interview?

UWE VON SELTMANN: Oczywiście, tak, yes, of course.

AI: Thank you very much. Just to start, can you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

UVS: Oh, I think it's not easy to say it briefly. My father was born 1943, in 1:00Kraków. And he had five siblings, but he grew up, at foster parents in the small village in Western Germany. And when I was a little boy, I discovered in his passport a place of birth, Kraków. And I ask him, "Why you were born in Kraków?" And he answered, "I don't know, because my parents were there." And I didn't know where Kraków was, and in Poland. Aha! "Why in Poland?" "Not because my parents were there, but don't ask me more. I don't know anything." So, since -- yeah, as a young boy already, I became interested in my family history, because I could feel somehow that something now was put under the carpet. The people 2:00didn't want to talk about it. And the one they didn't talk about were my grandparents. And so, later on -- I always ask questions, but I never got an answer. And in the age of about thirteen, fourteen, I discovered my father was born in Kraków -- this is close to Auschwitz. Two older sisters were born in Lublin. Lublin, the concentration camp Majdanek. And then, I started to ask questions again. I got to know somehow that my grandfather was an SS man and that they were both very tough Nazis, my grandparents, but no information at all. The two sisters of my grandma were still alive at this time, and when I ask 3:00them, the answer was always, Ah, it's such a long time ago and we don't remember. And, Ah, nice weather today and tell us about school or university, and that was all. And then, in 1989, I came for the first time to Kraków, together with my father. We visited his place of birth, but we didn't find the courage to ring the bell and to enter or to ask someone. But I fall in love to the city of Kraków. And that was also 1989, the first time I entered Kazimierz, the Jewish quarter. Even -- despite that our guide said the warning, "Never enter Kazimierz. You never know if you come back alive or not," and --

AI: Listen, in 1989 was the time when Poland got through a big transformation. So, what month did you arrive? Do you remember what was the month?

UVS: Yeah, it was in October 1989. It was --

AI: And so we were already a free country.

UVS: I remember this very well, because on that very day when we traveled through GDR, the still communistic, socialistic GDR -- at that time was the fortieth birthday of GDR. And so, we had to wait for a very long time at the border from GDR to Poland because there was no -- almost no one working because they were all in Berlin to protect the great leaders, Honecker and Gorbachev and so on. And this was also -- I remember this very well. We were standing in the long queue, on the bridge, close to Frankfurt Oder to Słubice at the border. And close to us was standing a bus with Polish people, also waiting, of course. 5:00And this was my first -- yeah, the first time that I met Polish people and it was a great moment, because they had vodka in the car, and they invited us to drink together with them. And so, we had a lot of fun. So, this was just an anecdote. (laughter) And, yeah, I fall in love to Kraków and I came again and again. In the 1990s, as a journalist, I was also responsible for southern Poland, Silesia and Wrocław, for example, and Opole and then, also, Kraków. And so, I came in 1999 to Kraków to write a report, reportage about Jewish life in Kraków, in the past and in the present time. I was already there in the summer 6:00before, made appointments -- for example, with people who survived thanks to Schindler's list. And I remember it was a rainy, cold, dark grey November day. I had still some time until my next appointment. And so, I was walking through Kazimierz on Szeroka Street. So, the coffee houses in that time in the morning were still closed, so -- and then, suddenly, I discovered the beautiful Remuh Synagogue, close to the old Jewish cemetery. And I said to myself, Wow, for sure, it's not raining inside and it's a little bit warmer, so why not to enter? I entered and there was a man standing there, maybe about fifty, sixty, praying. 7:00He had black trousers, black --

AI: Kapote [long coat traditionally worn by observant Jewish men]?

UVS: Tak [Polish: Yes], a black hat, also. And I said to myself, Wow, great, this fits perfectly for your article. So, I waited until he finished and I ask him -- I introduced myself as a journalist from Germany, if I could ask him some questions. And he said, "Yes, of course." But he didn't hardly -- told me anything about himself, only that he came from London, that every year he traveled to Kraków by -- to pray for his parents at the yortsayt [anniversary of death]. And he showed with a gest what happened to his parents and that they 8:00were killed. And then, he started to ask questions to me. Why I wanted to write an article about Jewish life, why in Kraków, why I'm interested in Judaism, and so on and so on. And I said, I was all my life interested in Judaism and I learned Hebrew, the loshn koydesh [Hebrew, lit. "holy language"]. I lived in Jerusalem. And all the time, he repeated his questions, "But why? Why? Why?" And I said, "I don't know." And then, he asked me, "When was your grandfather born?" And I said, "1917, in Graz, in Austria." "Aha, he was a Nazi." I said, "I don't know anything about him. He's held as an taboo within our family. No one is 9:00talking about him." "Aha! And your father?" I said, "1943, in Kraków." And then, he said, "I tell you why you are interested in Judaism: because you feel guilty. You feel guilty for that, what your grandfather or grandparents did, whatever it was." And this Jewish guy from London, he was somehow right. It was not like that, that I was walking depressive through life, but since my childhood, I could feel something went wrong in our family. And we said goodbye, and at the end, this Jewish guy asked me, "Do you have Jewish roots?" And I said, "No." "Are you sure?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "You have Jewish roots, believe 10:00me." So, after this, I think one of the most important scenes in my life, I started what I wanted to do for a long time, to make a research on my grandparents. I started, really, because as a journalist, I learned how to do it in a professional way. What I found out was really not very -- how to say -- positive, and I wrote a book about all the story. This book was published in Germany. Let's say quite a success, because I was one of the first breaking this taboo, talking about the connection of the family to the Nazi past.

AI: And it was already in the '90s, right?

UVS: No, this book was published in 2004 for the first time. In 1999, I met this guy from London, then I started the research. It took some time, and in 2004, 11:00finally the book was published. And --

AI: And what was your family reaction to this book?

UVS: You can say I -- when I started this research, after a while, I made an official information to all members of our family. My brother has -- my father has five siblings. There were three reactions. The two oldest strongly against me and my research, two supporting me, and two -- that was my father, as the second youngest and the youngest -- they said, Pff, if you think you have to do it, do it. If you find out something, that's okay. If not, it's also okay. So, three opinions. Then, the book was published, and the reaction was silence. 12:00Absolutely silence. No one -- everybody was reading the book, but no one talking about it. And it took five, six years that -- the first one, the -- one of my oldest -- yeah, the oldest brother of my father -- that he strongly attacked me, what I did badly, that I destroyed the family honor and so on, writing this book. And someone once said that before the book, the grandfather was the taboo in the family. After the book was published, the book was the taboo within the family, so. And then, after two years -- for two years, I was invited to schools. I had a lot of readings, lectures, and so on. And then, I said to 13:00myself, Okay, my job is done, so -- and I came back to regular job as a journalist, working as an editor-in-chief of a weekly magazine, and -- but also in that time, I was guiding -- it was working as a tour guide to Ukraine, to the eastern part of Galicia and Bukovina: Lemberg, L'viv, Lwów, L'vov, Czernowitz, and so on. And on the way back from one of these Ukraine trips, I had one evening free time in Kraków. It was during the Jewish Culture Festival, and I went to Café Singer and -- now, during the festival, you are never sitting 14:00alone for a long time. I was invited to the table close to me.

AI: Did you come also to give a talk, on the festival? Or it was just --

UVS: No, no, it was just as a -- how to say? Stopover or stop by on the way from Ukraine to -- back to Germany.

AI: Yeah.

UVS: And then, of course, I was asked, Where do you come from, what are you doing? And so on. And I was a little bit -- but then, after a while, I said here in Café Singer, "I was writing a big part of a book." Aha! And so, then, "My father was born in Kraków and the book was about my grandfather." And, Why? And then, I said at the end, "Yes, my grandfather was an Austrian SS man in Kraków." And then, there was silence at the table. And suddenly, one lady said, "Oh, my grandfather was killed at Auschwitz." Then, there was again silence. And I 15:00thought, Okay, now it's time to go, better -- it is. But we continued and it happened like that that one year later, Gabi and me married. And I think our very different family histories and our very different pasts, they brought us together somehow. Because in Gabi's family -- were the same patterns like in my family. But in our family was the grandfather who was killed at Auschwitz -- was held as a taboo in the family. And so, one day I said, I wrote a book about my grandfather, made all this research. Why not to do it and to make second research and publish a second book? This book was published in 2012 at the same 16:00time in Germany and in Poland. And the reactions were completely different. In Germany, actually, no one was interested, no success at all. But in Poland, huge success. We were invited to so many talk shows, to TV, radio, big magazines writing about the story. And so, I think it was not a stupid idea to do it. So, coming back to my Kraków visit in 1999, the London Jew said a second -- answered this -- at the end, "Do you have Jewish roots?" And after moving to Kazimierz, it was in 2007, all this Jewish family histories came from heaven. I didn't have to research at all. We were sitting at the table, I was starting -- started 17:00talking about also my -- with some friends about my grandparents on my mother's side. And I said, "My real grandfather, he died when my mother was two years old as a Wehrmacht soldier. But my grandma is still alive, about hundred years old." And someone ask about her name. And I said she was a née Marburger. And immediately is reaction, Oh, she was Jewish! Or, She is Jewish! And I said, "Why do you ask?" Marburger is a typical Jewish name, like Wertheimer, or Oppenheimer, Krakauer, Warschauer, and so on. And I said, "I know that my great-grandfather -- I remember him very well, when I was a child, that they -- 18:00in our village, they called him the friend of the Jews, they -- that he had his best friend coming from Frankfurt Main had the name Lurvey." And then, I started to research and I discovered that from the very same village from which my Marburger family comes, that there, 1942, in 1942, three families -- Marburger -- were deported to Sobibór and killed at the death camp in Sobibór. And then I ask immediately my grandma, hundred years old, "Grandma, these Marburgers killed in the death camp, did they belong to our family?" And she answered in 19:00the dialect of our region, and her answer was -- yeah, such a double meaning answer. There was no clear message. It could be yes, it could be no. So, I --

AI: So, what exactly she said?

UVS: She said, "Be dene hätte me nichts zum doe." How to translate? "With them, we were not connected" or "We had no contact." But never, if -- no answer if they did belong to our family or not. And I continued asking her the questions, also, about her father and all this -- how to say -- love to the Jewish people in which I was educated and raised, and the strong connection somehow to Israel 20:00and so on, but never a clear message, never a clear answer. And then, she closed the only one eye she still could open, and that was the sign to not answer any more any questions. And later on, about one, two years later, I had a -- I was invited for a lecture close to this village, in Hessen, in Germany. And there, after my lecture, came old man. And he said that he's some kind of hobby historian, and he likes to make family research. And then, I said, "Oh, maybe you can tell me something about the Marburger family?" And he said, "Yes, of course." And he told me that in the 19th century, one part of the family converted to Christianity and the other part kept Jewish. So, all the Jewish 21:00Marburgers were killed, and I'm still alive sitting here because of the --

AI: Conversion.

UVS: -- Marburgers who became Christians. I never had the idea to search on my father's side, because as -- with an SS man as a grandfather, there -- was impossible to have any Jewish ancestors or like that. But then, I think it was in 2011, we were invited to Budapest in Hungary for a lecture. And one week ago, we didn't know exactly where and when. So, I gave to Google in internet my name, Seltmann and Budapest. Nothing came about our lecture, but as first -- appeared 22:00on the screen: Dr. Lyosh Seltmann, Chief Rabbi of Hódmezõvásárhely in southern Hungary. And I couldn't trust my eyes. And, of course, the whole night, I was making research in internet. And this Hódmezõvásárhely is close to Timișoara in Romania. Szeged is next close city. And this is exactly where my Seltmann family came from before they moved to Vienna. And I discovered the father of Rebbe Lyosh, [Shandor Alexander?] Seltmann, a Hungarian, and [Farentz Frantz?] Seltmann from the straight line of my grandfather on the same document. 23:00And I think they were brothers. And also, the same story, like on my mother's side: one part converted to Christianity, to Catholicism in Austria, and the other part kept Jewish. All Jews were killed. No exception. I made research in Yad Vashem and other places. And all were killed. And so, again, the story: I'm alive because of, yes, this Christian side.

AI: Do you know much of your origin had changed something about your identity or not?

UVS: This is a very good question. Very often, people say to me, like this Jew, also, from London almost, well, twenty years ago, You are interested in Judaism 24:00because you feel guilty. Maybe this is one point, but on the other side, when I was not ten years old, I was reading a seven hundred pages history of the Jewish people. The book was standing in my father's room. With twelve years, when I was in hospital, I read Leon Uris, "Exodus." So, with about fifteen, sixteen -- I fall in love to Yiddish.

AI: How come? (laughs)

UVS: Nu, dos iz [Well, that's] --

AI: Oykh a gute frage [Another good question].

UVS: Nu, demolt zenen geveyn a sakh -- nisht a sakh, ober zenen geveyn orkester vos hobn geshpilt yidishe lider. Un Zupfgeigenhansel in daytshland, Espe, "zenen 25:00brider zaynen mir geveyn," oder "Belz, mayn shteytele belz." Nu un ikh hob bakumen lib yidishe loshn un ikh hob ongehoybn lern zikh a bisl yidish. [Well, at that time there were a lot -- not a lot, but there were orchestras that were performing Yiddish songs. And Zupfgeigenhansel in Germany, Espe, "we are all brothers," or "Belz, my little town of Belz." And so I started to like the Jewish language and I started learning a little Yiddish.]

AI: Vu [Where]?

UVS: Vu? Ikh bin autodidakt. Shpeter ikh bin geforn a sakh mol keyn tsernovits un keyn lemberik, un do zenen geveyn lerer. Lemoshl yosef burg. Yosef burg iz geveyn di letste fun di yidishe shrayber un ikh hob im -- mir zenen zikh bagegnt tsum ershtn mol in tsvey touzant in ershtn yor. Un er iz geveyn shoyn dem nayntsikstn yor ober [Where? I am an autodidact. Later I traveled to Czernowitz and Lemberg, and there were teachers there. For example, Yoysef Burg. Yoysef Burg was the last of the Yiddish writers and I -- we met for the first time in 2001. And he was ninety years old but] -- (flexes arm muscle)

AI: Shtark [Strong]?

UVS: Shtark.

AI: Un gezunt [And healthy].

UVS: Un gezunt. Mir zenen geven a sakh mol in zayn shtub un mir hobn geleynt tsuzamen zayn dertseylungen. Un shpeyter ikh bin oykhet geforn in lemberik un dort voynt boris dorfmanen. Un er iz geveyn der tsvayter lerer far mir. Nu, ikh red nisht keyn reynem yidish, ikh red a zeyer a daytshmerish yidish ober nu? Vos ikh red tsi af english tsi af poylish tsi af ikh veys nit vos, ikh hob a daytshishn aksent. Ober ikh kun leyenen yidish, ikh kun farshteyen yidish, ikh ken kuminikirn mit di layt, tsi zey lebn in buenos ayres, tsi tel aviv, tsi noy york, oder do un kroke. Ikh hob nisht -- vemen ikh ken redn yidish. Zenen do 27:00fir, finf vos redn yidish, a galitsyaner yidish, leopold kozlovsky-klaynman, borokh smerin, er iz gevoyn in london in a yidisher mishpokhe un yidish iz zayn mame-loshn. Nu, ober ikh hob lib yidish un ikh hob lib leyen di bikher af yidish, itzik manger, sholem aleykhem. [We've been to his house many times and read his stories together. And later I also went to Lemberg and Boris Dorfman lives there. He is a second teacher. So, I don't speak a pure Yiddish, I speak a very Germanic Yiddish, but so what? Whether I'm speaking English or Polish or whatever, I have a German accent. But I can read Yiddish, I can understand Yiddish, I can communicate with people, whether they live in Buenos Aires, or Tel Aviv, or New York, or here in Kraków. But I don't -- with whom to speak Yiddish. There are four, five who speak Yiddish, a Galitsyaner Yiddish, Leopold Kozlowski-Kleinman, Baruch Smerin, he lives in London in a Jewish family and Yiddish is his mother-tongue. So, well, I like Yiddish and I like to read Yiddish books, Itzik Manger, Sholem Aleichem.]

AI: Okay, but I have to ask you this question. You were only teenager, and do you remember the very first moment when you were exposed to Yiddish?

UVS: Nu, ikh hob [Well, I have] -- I have still this album. And it was a folk band singing yidishe lider [Yiddish songs], Espe. I was in the concert of them, 28:00and from the first moment, I -- this is the very first conscious moment.

AI: Yeah.

UVS: But I don't know. Sometimes I think this friend of my great-grandfather, he became -- after my great-grandfather passed away, he was still a friend of the family. And some -- it might be true, it might be not. But I think that he was speaking in my ears as a child a very strange German. So, maybe he was speaking Yiddish, ober ikh veys nisht [but I don't know].

AI: Okay, but let --

UVS: But Yiddish was always for me a language where I feel very at home, zeyer heymish [very cozy].

AI: What year were you born?

UVS: 1964.

AI: So, then, it means that when you were growing up, it was only '70s.

UVS: It was in the '70s.

AI: And did Germany at that time also have the revival of the klezmer and Jewish music?

UVS: No, no, no. And this -- klezmer revival came much later. In that time, it was just -- it was only -- not a handful of bands playing Yiddish songs. But I met them and I heard them, and I fall in love.

AI: So, the chance that you could possibly meet them were really small at this point.

UVS: It was in the time before internet, and it was --

AI: Exactly.

UVS: It was really -- you had to do something to go to some record shop or -- and to go to experts and to listen to some late-night radio broadcasts to get some knowledge. No, no, it was absolutely very, very special (UNCLEAR) story, and -- but I fall in love. And later, when I learned Hebrew, the loshn koydesh, 30:00it was the most easy thing for me to do. With Polish, I'm struggling all the time, with other languages. But Hebrew, it -- no problems at all. And Ivrit [Hebrew: modern Hebrew] is a different story, but the loshn koydesh, it was "Bereshit bara elohim et hashamayim v'et ha'aretz./V'hayetah tohu vavohu [Hebrew: In the beginning God created the heavens and earth./And it was formless and void]. Nu, so, this is --

AI: Tell me how your family react to your strange interest.

UVS: I would say they ignore it.

AI: (laughs) Completely?

UVS: Yeah. My father, my parents are quite often in Kraków, at least once a year. And sometimes they come with friends. So, I make always -- I guide them 31:00through Kazimierz. And once, my father, he said, "Oh, I have to make you a compliment." And I was -- because it was never it happened before that he said, "I have to make you a compliment." And he said, "Your knowledge about all this Judaism and -- it's really amazing. And where did you learn all these things?" And that was his only reaction. On my mother's side, there was one reaction. And this -- but, no, maybe two. When this book about Gabi's grandfather was published in Germany, our local newspaper, they were writing article about me 32:00and the story. And, at the end, in the last paragraph, the reporter wrote something that now his next research will be about the Jewish ancestors in his family. Only just two sentences. And no reaction of my parents. And suddenly, my mother, sitting there and reading this article, saying nothing -- and then, she said, "Yes, yes, I don't know why, but I had always such a strong love, could feel such a strong connection to the Jewish people." And then, she started to cry and went out. And then, her second strong reaction was when, here in Kraków, we visited together the exhibition in the Schindler Museum. And after half an 33:00hour, she had to -- she couldn't stand it anymore, so she had to run out. I followed her and we were sitting in the café, coffee house, and she was crying all the time, and that -- yeah, saying not much, just what happened and -- to our family, asking these questions and crying all the time. And just a few weeks ago, I was at my parents'. They are now in the middle of the seventies. And they still have a house, and my brother was also there. So, we started talking about what happened in the future, and -- with the house and so on. And suddenly, my mother got up, went to her small carport, taking out a small box, very 34:00old-fashioned. And this box was full of coins, some two, three strange -- how you say, Order, for wandering in the Alps, you got the gold medal for fifty kilometers or three mountains. And among -- and the coins from the nineteenth century with Kaiser Wilhelm, later from the Weimar Republic, and also from the Nazi time with swastika and Hitler and so on, on the coins. And among all these coins was a badge, round, written in English and in Hebrew, "I am a Zionist," "Ani tzioni [Hebrew: I am a Zionist]." And we all were watching on, staring, and 35:00then I asked, "What's that? From whom is it? Who?" And this is for me -- it was such an -- how to say? Ups or down? Absurd situation that you have this small wooden box with some silver and mirror on it, and little bit kitschy, and inside, all these coins. And then, suddenly, this golden button, "I am a tzioni, ani tzioni, I am a Zionist." I have it here.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

So, this was, for me, a --

AI: Are you still in shock? (laughs)

UVS: Yeah, but somehow in a positive -- I don't know how old it is. I don't know 36:00from --

GABI VON SELTMANN: Show the camera.

UVS: -- which time.

AI: (laughs) Thank you.

UVS: Just a strange story again. Once, a rabbi, because -- the question for me is -- comes quite often, why I'm so interested and feel so connected to Judaism. And it happened really since my childhood. And why? And it could -- it started before all feelings of being guilty for whatever my grandparents did, and once I 37:00ask a rabbi about what he thinks about this story. And he said, "Do you know about this idea of gilgul [Hebrew: transmigration of souls, lit. "cycle"] in kabbalah?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Gilgul is somehow to say that whenever a Jewish life was finished before the time -- for example, that someone was killed, that some branch of a family was cut, and that Jewish life was, killed, dead, finished, the end, there is a small" -- how to say -- "spark."

AI: Yeah.

UVS: "Sparkle of the soul wandering around. It can take years, the decades -- 38:00and searching for some open -- and where this spark can enter, and then it continues." I don't know if this idea is wrong or right, but --

AI: Something definitely is in the air.

UVS: -- sometimes I think it --

GVS: Yeah.

UVS: -- it could fit.

AI: (laughs) And Uwe, tell me, did you grow up in religious home?

UVS: I grew up in a very religious -- once, on a lecture, I told -- not much, only a few sentences about my childhood, that I grew up very religious. Everything was forbidden. Sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll. And, of course, girls. And strongly divided into the good and the bad, the community completely 39:00separated from the rest of the village. And I didn't mention anything about what kind of religion. And after this lecture, someone came to me and he said, "Oh Uwe, I didn't know at all that you were raised in an Orthodox community." (laughter) Because he experienced the same way of education. No, I grew up in a very Protestant, Calvinistic, pietistic, strong religious family. So, Calvinism is, yeah, really tough and hard, and -- but if you were inside of this group, you had the Heaven on Earth, supporting each other, and you was one of us. If not, or if you wanted to leave or go out, then they could very quickly prepare 40:00you for Hell on Earth. I left, because, yeah, I couldn't stand it anymore and -- but, what was very strong in this community was a strong connection to Israel and to the people of Israel and to the Holy Land, and like a lot of today in America, these evangelical right-wing Christians who are the biggest supporters of the State of Israel and so on. I never heard one bad word about Jews, one bad word about -- no, it was always -- I grew up with all stories of Adam and Eve, 41:00Cain and Abel, Abraham, Isaac. And Joseph, of course, in Egypt. And my great-grandmother, she also got very old, she had an illustrated Bible from the nineteenth century. And, as a child, little boy, I was sitting always together with her, and we were watching together these drawings from nineteenth century. And, of course, divided into two parts: the so-called Old Testament, the so-called New Testament. And I remember me and my great-grandma -- oh, Samson and Delilah and Daniel with the lions and all the stories. The prophets, Elijah, Leah -- and reading together. And when there came the New Testament, oh, somehow 42:00boring. (laughter) And we started in the beginning, with God creating the world. And so, there was a strong connection to -- also to this way of believing, to this way of theology and --

AI: So, this is different from Catholicism, because in Catholicism, we focus on New Testament, where you also were exposed to the Old Testament.

UVS: Yeah, very strong. Very strong -- connected to the so-called Old Testament. Yo [Yeah].

AI: And how old you were when you left?

UVS: No, I was twenty. I finished high school, made matura [matriculation exam], and then I didn't go to Army. I made, in that time, some kind of civil service in a mansion for -- home for homeless people. And then, I studied. And I studied 43:00Protestant theology, but also Judaistic and some other things.

AI: And where did you study Judaistic?

UVS: In Tübingen, in Vienna, and also in Erlangen. In all three cities, I studied both, and --

AI: And your parents were okay with your Jewish studies?

UVS: Oh, they were not interested in it. It was not --

AI: And your friends? How did they react that time? Because that was already in the '80s, right?

UVS: Yeah, tak. Yes, it was -- I -- '84, I left my small little village. And no, no one actually took care. No, but -- no, on the other side, I had some friends, 44:00and that was the reason why I came to Israel. One of my colleagues at university, he started in Jerusalem, and he was excited. It was in the time before email, so he wrote a letter, and sending the postcards. And then, in 1993, I came for the first time to visit him. And I fall completely in love of the Jews, and then was in that time, for me, really the -- no, this golden Jerusalem and --

AI: Yerushalayim shel zahav [Hebrew: Golden Jerusalem].

UVS: And so, then I decided that when I have free time, I will come for a longer time. And so, that was in 1994 until 1995. And I lived in the Old City of Jerusalem, working as a volunteer in the Austrian hospice, and -- but a lot of 45:00free time to travel. And in that time, I met my hero, Schalom Ben-Chorin. In the English-speaking world, he's quite unknown. But in Germany, he was born 1915, in Munich, made aliyah in '35 or like that. And he wrote a lot of books. And he was a friend of Martin Buber. And Schalom Ben-Chorin was the one who, I think, influenced me the most in the way of theology and philosophy. And he was very 46:00often invited by German groups or Austrian groups to make a lecture or speech in Austrian hospice or in the Lutheran Church or somewhere else. And I was the one taking him from home, taking him back. And he was sitting every Friday morning in the Café Ahava and just waiting if someone would join him and, yeah, free to talk and to teach. And so, he -- I have all his books. I think it's about ten-something in German language. Only one or two are translated into English. But unfortunately, he's quite unknown. And he was the founder of the first Reform synagogue in Jerusalem, Har-El, in the 1950s. So, I went there for 47:00Shabbat when I was in Israel. Yeah, so there was always this connection and --

AI: The paths really crossed.

UVS: Tak, and --

AI: And while you were where you lived in Israel, you didn't know about your Jewish roots at this point, right?

UVS: Right. I didn't know about it at all. No. Nothing.

AI: And --

UVS: No knowledge at all.

AI: And how did the Jews -- reacted to you?

UVS: Oh, very often they were -- they all thought that I was Jewish. And when I said I'm not, they were quite -- Huh? Really not? And I said, "No, no, no." And they were quite surprised, and some even disappointed. I remember once, I was 48:00standing at the Western Wall, and just -- there came a friend from Germany and I showed him the place. And then came one Hasid, and started in a mixture of German and Yiddish talking to me. And that my friend, he was from Austria, and that he was not Jewish. This was for him obvious. And then, he wanted to teach me and show me some mystic stories in the Kabbalah and everything. And then, it came out that I said, "No, no, I'm not Jewish and I don't go to any yeshiva," and so on, and he was so disappointed. I never will forget this, he even became angry. And, yeah, I had a lot of stories like that. And with Schalom Ben-Chorin 49:00or the old yeke [German Jew], which were still alive in that time, the Jews from Germany. I had always very good and close connections, and -- but I also had great times in Palestine. In that time, it was without any problems possible to travel. My doctor -- medicine was a Palestinian, living between Jews, (UNCLEAR). He had studied medicine in Marburg, Germany, speaking perfect German, and also a beautiful lady working in his Kabinett -- what's "Kabinett" in English?

AI: In his office.

UVS: In his office, and much cheaper than an Israeli. So, I went always to him. And in that time, it was a great time there.

AI: And that time, you already knew Hebrew and Yiddish, right?

UVS: Yes, not -- Yiddish -- today, my Yiddish is a little bit better, I would say. But I knew Hebrew and Yiddish, that -- the old people, the loshn koydesh. I don't know why, Ivrit. I never had a close connection. Of course, I can -- some phrases to talk, and -- but there was never, also -- mostly English or German, or now, when we were last year in Israel for two months in the Polish community, speaking Polish, a lot of speaking French or Russian or English so that there 51:00was never the reason why either to talk or to learn Ivrit. And -- un, yo, ikh bin geveyn in yung-yidish un mir hobn geredt yidish [and, yeah, I was at Yung Yiddish and we spoke Yiddish] or in Arbeter Ring or in Sholem Aleichem, nu, and mir hobn gefirt a shmues af yidish un nisht af ivrit. Un zey zenen geveyn gliklekh un ikh bin oykhet geveyn gliklekh un tsufridn az mir hobn gehapt dos meglekhkayt redn af yidish [we chatted in Yiddish and not in Hebrew. And they were happy and I was also happy and pleased that we had an opportunity to speak Yiddish]. And so, I have to improve my Ivrit. (laughter)

AI: And for whatever purpose, who knows, that your next step will be Eretz Israel.

UVS: Yeah, unfortunately, in my eyes, Israel changed, in this twenty years changed so much, and I was not there for nineteen years. So, I came back and 52:00it's still -- the weather and everything is absolutely great, but the atmosphere completely changed. And, unfortunately, from my perspective, not for good.

AI: The wall needs to fall down.

UVS: There is a wall, I think, which should -- yeah, this was, for me, as a German -- I understand the Israelis. And also, the left-wing Israelis explaining us why the wall is necessary, I somehow understand it. But for me, as a German, standing in front of -- or someone who was born in Germany, standing in front of a wall like that -- well, it's terrible.

AI: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

UVS: But this is a different story and a political story, and --

AI: That's not -- for sure, it doesn't belong to Yiddish.

UVS: No.

AI: I would like to ask you, who is your favorite Yiddish author?

UVS: Now, this is Yoysef Burg and Itzik Manger. "Dos bukh fun gan-eydn," ikh hob aza lib dos bukh. Un ikh bin geveyn in tel aviv, ikh bin gekumen in di antikvariat. Un ["The book of paradise," I love this book so much. And when I was in Tel Aviv, I went to an antiquarian shop. And] -- it was so many -- the owner was an old German, but in the beginning, he refused to talk in German to me. So, we spoke in English. But he had even a stronger accent than me, and so it was obvious that he was an old German, too. And then, I already had such an amount of books, Leo Baeck, Martin Buber, from the '20s, from the great -- and then I asked him if he has books in Yiddish language, and his first answer was, 54:00"No." And then, he said, "Ah, maybe you search there," but he doesn't know at all if they are. And there were books like that. And then, I couldn't trust my eyes. And so, I had to give back a lot of other books to buy the Yiddish books, and at the end, I really had not enough money. And in the beginning, he said, "No, no, no, no discount at all. No discount at all." And then, I said, "Okay, I have to give another one to -- back, because I have no budget, only -- but this book I really need to have: Itzik Manger, 'Gezamlte verk [Collected works]'." And then he said, "Okay, take it." And so, I came with -- one of the books I bought was really -- Itzik Manger. Oh, and this is gezamlte shrifn un dos iz 55:00geveyn mit an original autograf [collected writings and this has an original autograph].

AI: And do you have any favorite poem by Itzik Manger?

UVS: No, no, poems, no. No, dos -- der boym afn veg [the tree along the path].

AI: "Afn veg shteyt a boym [There stands a tree along the path]."

UVS: "Afn veg shteyt a boym." Ober mayn [But my] favorite book is "Dos bukh fun gan-eydn." Un es iz a sakh, aza sheyn leyenen dos bukh af yidish. Ikh hob an iberzetsung af daytsh, ober leynen dos original, dos iz, nu, a groyser mekhaye. 56:00[And it's so much, so nice to read this book in Yiddish. I have a German translation, but reading the original, it's, well, a huge pleasure.]

AI: Of course it is, it always is. (laughs)

UVS: Yeah.

AI: Okay, but for --

UVS: One, also -- Sholem Aleichem, and there's a lot -- and Eliezer Shteynbarg from Czernowitz, and Josef Burg, of course, because also of the close, personal connection.

AI: How many hours did you spend with him reading?

UVS: Oh, this I don't remember. We had always -- we had in the evening, then, a program together. I was, how to say, introducing him and he was -- when I came there with groups from Germany as a tour guide -- and then, during the day, 57:00mostly I could take a few hours free time just to meet him, or when the group was very small, or just with some closer --

AI: Individuals --

UVS: -- individuals, we could meet him at home in his stoop on --

AI: How did his apartment look like?

UVS: Oh. Quite similar to the apartment of Schalom Ben-Chorin in Jerusalem and quite similar to this apartment, full of books, of course, full of books, books, books. And Josef Burg had also on one wall, he had a lot of -- how to say? What's the English word? He got some awards or prizes, and so they were all in 58:00frames at the wall. And he said that he was so thankful to God that he could get so old, because until he -- for forty years, he was not allowed to write one word, because in the time of Soviet Union -- and then, after perestroika, he started again writing, and he could publish all the stories he wrote en cachète [French: in secret] in that time. And then, he said, "Forty years, I was not allowed to write one word, and now even 'Encyclopedia Britannica was writing about me.'" But in his very old age, he could now get some harvest, and to see that his life was somehow fruitful and --

AI: And he could witness that he's still alive.

UVS: Yeah, and that he --

AI: Yidish lebt [Yiddish lives].

UVS: Yidish lebt, nu --

AI: Dos mir visn [We know this]. (laughs)

UVS: Dos iz nisht keyn frage [There's no question].

AI: And do you have any special texts which really inspire you and you hold it close to your heart?

UVS: Af yidish [In Yiddish] or just --

AI: Af yidish, or just in general?

UVS: No, this is -- of course, in the Bible, it's Kohelet, "koheles" af yidish, ikh hob oykhet ["koheles" in Yiddish, I have it too]. Ober ikh ken dos nisht redn [But I can't recite it] by heart. No, this is -- Kohelet is -- and the Prophet Amos was always very fascinating for me. And then, of course, all the lyrics by Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen. Bob Dylan, we go together through life now since 1979. It's quite interesting that his -- the first record I bought 60:00when I was fifteen, it was one of his very Christian records, "Long Train Coming." And yet, for three years, this period where he became a born-again Christian, as a Jew. And this -- 1979, I bought my first album. And so, his lyrics are, for me, like a bible. For every situation in your life, you find the right word. And Leonard Cohen is similar. This is also Leonard Cohen, and also my beloved writers who wrote in German language, Josef Roth, who was born in Galicia, in Brody, in the east of Lemberg, Stefan Zweig, Peter Altenberg, most of them quite unknown in the English-speaking world. But they were this legendary Vienna coffeehouse writers in the beginning of the twentieth century, 61:00late nineteenth century, before the first World War. And I was reading especially Josef Roth, I was reading since my childhood. And so, I always wanted to see the places about which he was writing in Galicia, and it was a great moment when I could come for the first time to Brody, and when I went to the school where he made matura and where he -- and I could understand, after seeing all the places, I could understand much more about what he was writing than before. So, all my beloved writers, all my beloved musicians, they all were Jewish, since my childhood, since I was a young boy, and why ever it happened 62:00like that, I don't know.

AI: But I completely understand that. I completely do. Tell me, for many years, you were journalist and you wrote many reportages, and then you also guided so many tourists, it's a countless number. So, you have met many people. And now, you started also making movies, very important ones. And how did it come to you that "Boris Dorfman" was born?

UVS: Well, this was, for a long time, it was still my dream to make at least one movie. Like it was twenty years ago, before, to write a book. Later it were about eight, nine books I wrote or edited or published. And then, I think, thanks to my wife, Gabriela, who is connected to the film milieu and people, and 63:00Boris was always -- yeah, I met him for the first time -- I think it was in 2001. And I was always the one translating him from Yiddish into German or English, because a lot of Germans don't understand Yiddish. And so -- and I always wanted to make a film about him, because he's such a fascinating person, a mentsh, azoy men zogt af yidish, er iz, nu, take a mentsh [a good person, as they say in Yiddish, he is really a good person]. And then, when Betia, his wife told Gabi or us, that was in September 2013, after the ninetieth birthday of 64:00Boris, she told us that she worries a lot about him, that he's getting old, and when he looks back, he thinks everything was for nothing, for -- in vain, all his work for Yiddishkayt to -- ophitn di yidishe traditsye, di yidishe gloybn, un azoy vayter [observing Jewish tradition, Jewish faith, and so forth]. And so, he became -- he didn't take his medicaments anymore. And then, Gabi and me said, Now it's the -- yeah, in Greek, you say the kairós, the right moment to do something. And it worked out. We started with not one zloty or cent or euro or dollar, and we could find a crew, agreeing for working in advance. Then we started the crowdfunding, fundraising. We got a donation, (coughs) and mostly 65:00people donated who knew Boris Dorfman. I wrote to all who were with me in Lemberg meeting him and so on, and they really gave the money that we could make the shooting. And then, we also got some money to make the editing. And then, in 2014, the film "Boris Dorfman: A Mentsh" was -- had its premiere in Lemberg, of course, at the Yiddish "Days" in Lemberg. Very special event. [BREAK IN RECORDING] The film had its premiere at the Yiddish "Days" in Lemberg, Lwów, L'viv, L'vov. It was in May 2014. And it was in the cinema, and the cinema was really -- it was full. And there came all people who very often would never 66:00enter the same room in their normal life. So, Boris brought them all together, the Jews in Lemberg, and it was an amazing atmosphere, amazing spirit. And after the premiere, we were sitting together in a restaurant with Boris and his family. And Boris was -- he never said one word to me, but he gave me such a kiss that I feel this kiss until today. And that was the sign that he really loved the film, and he could feel it. I never saw him so happy, so relaxed 67:00beyond that very day. And he's really -- er iz a mentsh. He's a mensch and doing so much for the Yiddishkayt and Jewish life in Lemberg. And he did it already in the difficult time of communism and the Soviet Union. He was the one in the underground publishing Yiddish-Jewish magazine and -- Shofar. Until today, he's editing it and publishing and writing, two -- one, two pages in Yiddish. And er is a mentsh with a real heart and soul, and --

AI: This movie is the very first Polish-German production in Yiddish, a hundred percent, almost, in Yiddish. Was it difficult to convince people to make it happen?

UVS: All our crew and all people involved were very excited, because for them, Yiddish was something like coming from Mars, or --

AI: Yeah, you also invited a star like, Christian Dawid to --

UVS: No, Christian is a klezmer -- he's somehow involved in this, let's say, story and milieu. I ask him and he immediately said, "Yes, of course," making the film music. No, but for example, our DOP cameraman never heard one word of Yiddish before. Also, the whole crew, they didn't know at all that Yiddish exists. And then, after eight days of shooting with Boris and Boris talking all 69:00the time -- and then, after this long editing process, forty, fifty days, they are now quite good in Yiddish. And we were even speaking then the dialogues together in Yiddish and so on and saying the dialogues together in Yiddish. And so, they are, again, supporting us, this crew, in our project about Mordkhe Gebirtig, the Yiddish writer and -- from Kraków, Kazimierz.

AI: And what is the idea of this project?

UVS: In 2017, we come -- we celebrate the -- some kind of Gebirtig year. It's the seventy-fifth anniversary of his date of death, when he was murdered by 70:00German soldiers, 1942, and the 140th of birth, when he was born in Kraków. So, we had the idea to do something for that very year, to bring Gebirtig somehow back to the public awareness. Here in Kazimierz, almost no one knows about him. And there are the musicians who sing his songs "Es brent, briderlekh, es brent," oder "Hulyet, hulyet, kinderlakh," oder like Boris Dorfman, "Kinderyorn, akh, vi shnel bin ikh shoyn alt gevorn, kinderyorn" ["It's burning, everyone, it's burning," or "Play, play, children," or like Boris Dorfman, "Childhood, oh, how quickly I've become old, childhood"], also one of the most beautiful songs by Gebirtig. And we want to make a very -- how to say, a film with a lot of music, with a lot of artists performing something for the film and for Gebirtig. So, it 71:00will be a quite positive film, I hope. I wrote, just right now, I wrote some kind of treatment with the off-voice of Gebirtig. My idea is that he comes back to Earth, comes back to Kazimierz, but he's, of course, invisible. No one -- but he observed everything what's going on and making his comments, of course, in Yiddish. So, I wrote some kind of first storyline in Yiddish, of course. And I think it can be a good idea. We will see. The problem is that we don't have money for this at all, and so we will see if we can manage it and do it. But we already started something like the ikh hob gehat a zisn kholem, I had the sweet 72:00dream, the Mordkhe Gebirtig multimedia show. We had our premiere at the twenty-fifth Kraków Jewish Culture Festival. S'iz geveyn a groyser oylem [It was a large audience], and so it was full, and all stars of the Yiddish or Jewish music scene were there: Michael Alpert, Benjy Fox-Rosen, and a lot of -- Jeff Warschauer, Deborah Strauss. They all came, and they are all performing in the film. And even dancers, like Steve Weintraub, he's dancing something very special, accompanied by Deborah Strauss or by his house band. And so, I think it can be something great. We will see.

AI: And you are already visiting Kraków since 1989. And so, you witnessed many changes. And where, in your opinion, is Kraków today?

UVS: Now, we live in Kazimierz, in the old Jewish quarter. And this is the only place in Poland I can imagine to live, except of maybe Wrocław or -- but it's a very, very special quarter with a lot of plus, but also a lot of minus. It's unique, extraordinary. Seven synagogues, two Jewish cemeteries, and just on a very small district. And on the other side, no closing time, one pub after the 74:00other, and people are really drinking until they can't walk anymore. So, you have these very big differences between, on the one side, this heritage -- the walls are still standing, the people don't exist anymore, and in these walls, houses are now living completely people -- completely different people, and just coming to Kazimierz, to this old, traditional Jewish quarter to make party. And this Diskrepanz [German: discrepancy] -- it's English? Diskrepanz also? We want to show also in our movie about Gebirtig, on the one side, this rich, old Jewish heritage, spirit, everything, and on the other side, this somehow quite strange party life. And when I came here to Kazimierz for the first time, it was a 75:00completely empty, dirty, dark, devastated place. In the time of communism, nothing should remember that it was an old Jewish quarter. So, here the communists took all people to Kazimierz, to the empty houses after the Second World War who didn't exist officially in communism: drunkards, prostitutes, (UNCLEAR), dealers, thieves, and so on. Of course, also, some honest poor people, but nothing connected to the Jewish life, and no one connected to it at all. So, when I came here in 1989, there was nothing. It just -- there was the Remuh Synagogue and a cemetery, but all other things -- and then, later, thanks 76:00to also Steven Spielberg, who made here the film "Schindler's List" -- and then it grew up, grew up, this -- came back to life, also thanks to the Jewish Culture Festival, then later came the Reform community, the JCC. So, there's some kind of Jewish life today. But, on the other side, you can feel the emptiness and the loneliness, and if you're a little bit sensitive for this kind of, how to say -- then you feel it. And we will see. There's now the gentrification, they buy the -- build the hotels and luxus [German: luxury] apartments and all these kind of things. And, on the other side, the pubs just 77:00for drinking as fast as possible, as much as possible, for very cheap price. So, I'm curious how it will be in a few years. But it changed a lot, Kazimierz, but I think still worth to live here.

AI: Well, we hope, too, that you will still live with us here, especially in Poland, because it seems like you are doing good job. I would like to ask you about Yiddish. What do you think will be the future of Yiddish?

UVS: Nu. Yiddish lebt. Un ikh trakht az s'iz a tsukunft far yidish. Es iz nisht -- di layt veln nisht redn dos yidish fun far der tsveyter velt milkhome, dos 78:00yidish iz [Well. Yiddish lives. And I think there is a future for Yiddish. It's not -- people won't speak the Yiddish from before the Second World War, this Yiddish is] --

AI: Shoyn avek [already gone].

UVS: Iz shoyn avek, iz toyt. Ober, es iz a -- a nay yidish vos lernt zikh di yungelayt do in kroke, in varshe, in bresloy, in noy York, in tel aviv [It's gone, dead. But there is -- young people are learning a new Yiddish here in Kraków, in Warsaw, in Wrocław, in New York, in Tel Aviv], and so I'm very optimistic that Yiddish will have a future, and --

AI: Do you have idea where?

UVS: Where? No, I think the Yiddishland is -- dos yidishland -- thanks to internet, Yiddish has a future, because Yiddishland is, yes, on the one side, it's connected to the ground, to the old, traditional places in Middle and 79:00Eastern Europe where the Yiddish speakers were living before the war. And, on the other side, now it's in this virtual room, and thanks to internet. I am chatting with, in Yiddish, with people in Buenos Aires, and this is so great, for example. And in France, in Paris, the great community, Yiddish speaker. They were also showing our film there, and making voluntarily the French subtitles for "Boris Dorfman: A Mentsh." And so, there is some kind of community: old people, young people, Yiddish who are strongly connected thanks to the -- to Yiddish, the language, and to the Yiddishland, this virtual country. Un ikh hof -- nu, ikh bin zikher az yidish vet hobn a tsukunft [And I hope -- I am certain 80:00that Yiddish will have a future].

AI: Nu, [Polish? 01:20:09]. (laughter) [unclear]. And we are nearing to the end of our interview, but I would like to ask you if there is any other topic, what I should ask and I didn't?

UVS: I think I was already talking so much that --

AI: Well, of course, we have million other things what we should definitely talk about in the future for our next meeting. So, just to -- as a closing question, but last but not least, very important one: what advice do you have for aspiring future generations. Or think broader, not only about Yiddishists.

UVS: Bob Dylan once said, "It's always good to know what went down before you, 81:00because when you know the past you can create the future." For me, it's very important, and this I always say to young people at schools and universities: Ask the questions. Try to find out why you are and why things are how they are now and how it happened and how did it come that. So, when your grandparents are still alive, ask them the questions: What happened in the past? We can learn from our ancestors and we can -- positive, they gave us -- even my SS grandfather gave a good heritage to me. He was a writer, he was a journalist, he was very well-educated. He loved literature, and even that he was like me -- he 82:00didn't like to work in office. He was working in a coffeehouse. And so, there are so many things -- I hated him for a long time, but then I said, Okay, I have also to say him thanks, because thanks to him, I'm alive. But he gave me also a big, big responsibility, and this I see as my job here on Earth, some kind of -- to do something for Tikkun Olam, to make the world somehow a better place, and that means to know about the mistakes and all the stupid things our ancestor did, to learn, and to try to avoid it and to do something positive. That means bring people together. And for me, religion, nationality, language doesn't 83:00matter at all. This is Martin Buber, that he had the real big influence on me, this I-Thou philosophy that always -- I don't know it in English, the -- but in my words, that always the one vis-à-vis to whom you are talking and with whom you are in that moment, this is the very important -- to be connected and to be open. And so, to learn this kind of bagegenish [encounter], to meet people and, yeah, and just to make love and not war.

AI: A sheynem dank [Thank you very much], and --

UVS: Nishto far vos [You're welcome].

AI: -- thank you very much on behalf of --

UVS: Es iz geveyn a groys fargenign far mir [It was a huge pleasure for me]. (laughter)

AI: Oykh far mir [Also for me]. A sheynem dank, also on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center, Wexler's Oral History Project, Amherst, Massachusetts.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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